Movie Night- Blackkklansman

FROM OUR LOVELY INTERN: BlacKkKlansman is a powerful exploration of racism and extremism in America, inspired by the true story of Ron Stallworth, a black detective who infiltrated the Ku Klux Klan in the 1970s. Spike Lee’s adaptation of Stallworth’s memoir highlights the persistent fight against racism and white supremacy, particularly in the U.S. The film’s authenticity is evident in its meticulous research and historical accuracy, bringing a dark chapter of American history to life. The film resonated deeply with me, offering a sobering reflection on the complexities of bigotry. Despite my familiarity with the historical context, the movie served as a stark reminder of the far-right’s tactics and ideologies. Overall, BlacKkKlansman is a poignant reminder of America’s enduring legacy of racism and the ongoing fight for justice, urging audiences to confront uncomfortable truths and take action against oppression.


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Transcript

0:15

Welcome to movie night, a movie review series from the daily, former in each episode, we're taking movies that have some sort of link to the far, right. Either by depicting the movement by espousing the ideology, or maybe the far edge is like sees movies. And we want to call that out. The first movie we're examining is black Klansman, a 2017 film from spike Lee black Klansman follows a black officer. And the colleague as they go undercover to try and learn about a potential bombing plot. At the KKK might be planning as a reaction to a black student union. Although the time period in the film is the seventies. So many of the themes goals, and even the tire jokes are absolutely relevant to the movement now. Without further ado, join me, Angela and Lauren, to talk about this groovy flick.

Samantha 0:59

also am going to make a disclaimer that am I realizing how interesting it is that three former white supremacist white women are discussing a Spike Lee movie This movie might not have been made for us but I think it's an excellent movie and book to talk about, to, to examine the links to the far right, what everyone gets wrong, right, everything in between. My name is Sam. I'm your host for this movie night. I am here with Lauren and Angela.

Lauren 1:30

Hello,

Angela 1:31

Hello.

Samantha 1:32

And we will be discussing Black Clansmen by Spike Lee. Before we get into the nitty gritty of Of the movie. So the first question is what is your relationship to this movie? For I had heard about it in May of 2018, which was when I was just getting out of the grips of the far right. I had only been out for, I think eight months, quote unquote officially, but I was still raw. And I had a few phone conversations with David Duke and when I heard that he was in the movie, I, it, it was just anything, anything alt right, far right related freaked me out. So I had avoided this movie like the plague, which is why I wanted this to be the first movie that we discussed because I was so afraid of watching this movie for a long time. I did not know what to expect. Angela, what about you?

Angela 2:27

I just watched it this morning I had heard a little about it. I had seen some trailers and I guess I missed some important cues about the movie or I would have watched it much sooner. It was a little difficult watching there's so much historical information interwoven. And hearing, the kind of terms that, used to come out of my own mouth, was a little jarring, but I, I'm glad I watched it. I'm glad, that we're going to discuss it from this different perspective.

Samantha 3:04

And Lauren.

Lauren 3:06

Yeah, like I said, for me, I was given the book for Christmas a couple years ago. It was actually, on my list of things to read, because at that point, I was right into the whole true crime thing. I love drama that is not my own problem. So that's why I'm honestly interested in books like that, or just anything crime related in general. actually it was the first couple of chapters where, even though it didn't really come off as much of a surprise to me, it just reminds me of, the struggle of being a Black man on the police force, because I've heard stories like this before, and I remember one part in particular I was reading where he was doing the interview process or something, and they had said, well, how would you take it if he got called an N word? And he's like, oh, I would just let it kind of pass by me, or whatever the hell he said. But meanwhile, his mom raised him to stand up for himself, so that must have been difficult as fuck for the guy. So I guess this one came from more of a place than of empathy than anything else.

Samantha 4:02

Well, I really want to make a comment on that because they actually have that scene in the film, but we're going to digress for a second. I still have a couple more questions that we're going to get into categories. Did you have any misconceptions about it? I definitely thought it would be a lot more, like, physical comedy. I thought, well, it's a Spike Lee movie, I don't know how funny I expected it to be, but, like, I definitely thought it would be a lot more, black cop in a white hood, like, are they gonna pull it off on accident? Or, like, will he get stuck and the hood will come off? Like, I thought it would be a lot of, like, almost Scooby Doo hijinks. But, It was not and it was so much better and had so much more heart than I expected to like it wasn't as gritty as I thought it would be it wasn't as funny as I thought it would be but it was all of those things in like a master class of how to make a film with a social impact. What does the movie mean to the far right, if anything? Do we think that the far right likes this movie? Like, if we were to speculate how we think someone in the far right would react to this, What do we think they would feel? I personally think in the beginning, I think they'd be like, See? non violent. They don't want any violence. And then by the end, they'd be like, A, I wish I had the guts to try and pull something off, and B, they're making us look like the bad guys, even though it's just making them look like what they are. And I think it also got a lot of it correct, in my opinion, which really surprised me in a very appreciative way of how it pulled no punches. It was very much like, this is how the movement views itself, and I thought that was Really great.

Lauren 5:40

I thought a lot of it was pretty dead accurate. like I said, I had seen parts of the movie as well, and minus a few details here and there, they did do a good job at, how the movement views itself versus reality of it. and at the very end, like, I was laughing when he was mocking them on the phone. I don't know, I love shit like that.

Samantha 5:58

I love that. Angela, what about you?

Angela 6:00

I wish that the audience could see us all nodding our heads in unison, like, yes, yes, yes.

Samantha 6:07

He really gets it.

Angela 6:08

Yeah, I found it. exceedingly accurate. Some of the notes I took were very specific in regard to things that I once believed when I was involved in the far right and it's all the bullshit. The, the hook line and sinker Spike Lee really captured that. Like some examples, the movie opens with the message that white people are under attack. Like, when they're flipping through some of that stuff, immediately went into conspiracies about. Jewish people and them, supposedly controlling all these things. That this, according to a good bit of the violent far right, this is a white Protestant nation, like all of these things were captured dead on. Like you both said, it was uncanny because of all the movies I've seen about the violent far right. This is the closest one that. Really captures exact phrasing, the overall themes, the messages, and Integrated current events, like, People of color being shot down in the streets by white racist cops. I found all of it, like, Holocaust denial. I found it particularly interesting when Ron was having The conversation no, it was the fake Ron. It was flip flip was having the conversation with Felix about Holocaust denial.

Samantha 7:54

Oh, yeah.

Angela 7:56

it never happened. And flip took the position. Well, I'm glad it happened. And, and it really, played out the hypocrisy the conflicting views that's like, it never happened, but six million more.

Samantha 8:12

yeah. Well, and even even more than that, the fact that like, it's not about whether the Holocaust happened or not. It's about the fact that These people want the genocide of Jewish people. Like if you think the Holocaust didn't happen, it's because you want it to happen. And if you think it did happen, you think it didn't happen enough. when people say the, like, I don't think it was that many Jews, what they're trying to say is I still think there are too many Jews in this world. And that's the long and short of it. So I agree with you 100%. Like, I was so excited that you just brought up this scene. Cause it really demonstrates the ideology. Or the rhetoric, what they claim to be true, what they claim to be is their ideal, it is just a carrier for their racism and sexism and everything else like that.

Angela 8:57

I'm interested to know how it was portrayed in the book.

Samantha 9:02

Yeah,

Lauren 9:03

Actually, the part that I'm remembering right now, now that we're talking about that Jew detector test thing or whatever it was a scene in the movie just before that, where Felix's wife comes in and says, here's an article on something, yada, yada, yada. And he's like, okay, go back in the kitchen. She's like, you'll need me someday. Like, do you all relate to that too?

Samantha 9:24

Yes. That scene, I thought was so interesting because in the film and they introduce her she comes out and she's like oh I made some cookies and I made this and she's just seems like a very nice lady. And then. She goes into the living room. She's like, yeah, I heard about this, this N word lady and the N word and N word and she is just like dropping them. Like, I mean, you would think that they are just climbing out of her throat without her consent. She says it so many times. And so I thought that that was a really great depiction too, that women, whether you're in it or not are also a part of it. If, if you're married to a man in there, there's a part of it. I did think that it rang a little false when she was like, you're going to need me one day and we'll get to it later. But like, I don't think that that part was realistic.

Angela 10:08

I do. I do. Is this movie good in general? And who is this movie for? I personally think this movie was excellent. I thought it was a masterclass of how to make a movie with a social message that has heart, it has humor, it has, truth. yeah, it's, it's still so directly true. And I think the movie could be for everyone. I was really grateful that there wasn't a whole lot of violence. There's a lot of intense language in there and Weirdly enough, I had no idea that Harry Belafonte was in the movie, and Harry Belafonte was my Oma's favorite singer. So it was just this very weird, like, my Hitler Youth grandma loved Harry Belafonte, This movie means a lot more to me than I thought it would. But, yeah. I thought the movie was excellent, I think, if anyone wants to watch it. They should. I think it's so good. And I think you, you're gonna want to sit with your thoughts about it for a little bit afterwards, especially with the end. But it is not a movie that's going to like destroy you for two hours or anything like that. It's just the movie itself is a very aggressive truth bomb, I guess you could say.

Lauren 11:26

Yeah, I agree with that. And I would actually also echo that it is for everybody or anyone who's interested, rather, because even in the book, like, at the very start of the book, he said, okay, imagine what a country of like minded individuals could do together. Like, if a small group of agents could do this.

Samantha 11:44

Tell me more about that.

Lauren 11:46

So, I guess there weren't very many people on the Colorado Springs police force working on the case at the time. It was a small number of them, but they still managed to have success. So that's his point. Imagine if more like minded people came together against hate.

Samantha 12:01

Angela, what are your thoughts?

Angela 12:03

I agree. It's for everyone. I appreciated so much the. History that was brought into it and the comparison of quote unquote movements we hear a lot about like, well, Antifa, like, why don't you go for Antifa, looking at the black power movement, this is a movement that is seeking freedom, seeking liberation, seeking fair treatment, seeking equality. They didn't rise up one day and say, well, we're better than everybody, so we're going to go kill all white people. This is a response to their experiences, oppression, and the comparison was very interesting to me because they captured the far right so well. There's no no reasoning behind the violent far right's intentions. it was clear from the beginning that it's based on conspiracy theories. The white race is under attack. We have to save ourselves everybody's destroying us. And I really appreciated that because it's, it's a lesson within a lesson, within a lesson. And I learned things from it. Like, I didn't know that Woodrow Wilson screened Birth of a Nation in the White House.

Samantha 13:29

Yeah, I didn't know that either.

Angela 13:31

And, as much as I've studied and learned through the work that we do, that was something I never knew. And, I mean, 1918, I think, was when he did it. And it was a big thing. It like his family he invited for it was like a party in there And some of it just blew my mind.

Samantha 13:54

And for what it's worth, I know that for the longest time, Places would show Birth of a Nation because it was, it's kind of like a pre Citizen Kane, Citizen Kane, where it had a lot of groundbreaking cinematography ideas and just like storytelling like, this film was, studied by people in school for film, people that were learning, and it itself is the most obvious propaganda that you could possibly do like it's I would even venture to say it's not even propaganda. It's just a very clear message of like, this is what this country should be. But, yeah, that was a huge surprise to me. All right. So I want to get into categories. Our first category is the most accurate portrayal of the far right. I had three things that I wanted to say. One was when Flip is in the car with Felix and they're talking and he's like, yeah, the clan, he's like, you don't call it the clan. We call it the organization. And that is so similar to how like, I was in the alt right. Like, we were all white supremacists, but we call it the movement. The organizations. The this, the that. Like, the far right or violent extremists really try to make their groups seem more like mysterious and powerful and all this like we're not the clamper the organization and I thought that was a really accurate way of how the far right tries to legitimize everything that it does. I thought the first scene with Alec Baldwin as what was his name? Kennebrew Beauregard,

Angela 15:37

Oh regard

Samantha 15:38

I really want to imagine that Spike Lee was like, what is the whitest fucking name we could think of? And they were like, this one! Other than like, Sandwich McMannies, boy. Like, we've got Kenneth Brute Beauregard. But I thought that was excellent. The Jewish controlled this and just speaks as if it's matter of fact, like everything is Jewish controlled, Jewish controlled Hollywood, Jewish controlled this. And then also when they were playing pool and Walter, the head of the clan at the time was like, we're a nonviolent organization. Cause everyone believes that until they commit their

Angela 16:10

Okay, but you notice I don't know dude's name. They had the one drunk dumbass That there's always multiples of them. That's like, yeah, man, things are going to happen,

Samantha 16:23

Yeah,

Angela 16:24

And it's like, you hear Walter being like, don't listen to him. He drinks too much and doesn't know what he's talking about. And that's, that's a legit thing. There were lots of loose lips. And the dude was not smart. You could tell he wasn't intellectual. He was like, I can read.

Samantha 16:40

I also think what was accurate was Felix not liking Walter and thinking Walter wasn't hard enough on the JQ that was just such a common thing in the far like you're too soft on the JQ you this you that like you can't think that they're Jewish or you can't accept anyone if you think they're Jewish or whatever, like that was very accurate. And the fact that Felix thought Walter should step aside for Felix in every organization in every part of the movement. Every leader has at least three people standing behind them with a knife waiting for their

Angela 17:10

Yes. Yes. I was hoping that it was going to expand on that a little more because it's so reminiscent of the backstabbing, the drama, the I'm starting a new group within two groups I'm already in and it's secret and I got the secret handshake and if you do this handshake I know you're down but if you don't you're not in the club for the secret group.

Samantha 17:37

Yeah. Which, which I, did you guys have handshakes? Cause I never had to like finger anybody's wrist when I shook their hand or anything like

Angela 17:44

I never did that.

Samantha 17:46

Yeah. I really feel like when Walter was like, we're not violent. It's like, there's always the ellipsis and the word yet at the end. And I just thought that was weirdly accurate. did you guys want to add anything else to like the most accurate portrayals? Did we miss anything

Lauren 18:03

Actually, at the part where Felix had accused Flip at first, like it was during the initial meeting in the pool hall. It's like, oh, are you undercover? You ask too many questions. Cause I remember that exact thing happening a couple of times especially when I was with the hammer skin group all those years ago. like, just because someone fucking adjust their shirt asks a question, therefore they're an undercover cop.

Samantha 18:24

Oh, yeah. And that's a good call. I did think it was pretty on brand for the far right to want to stay Under the radar but plan a bombing when the leader of the kkk was in town Like they want to impress him, but they want to get away with it you guys the master race. but yeah if we have all that covered, we can go to the second category, which is what is the most sensationalized portrayal of the far right? was there anything where we didn't really think that was legitimate.

Lauren 18:54

Well, for me, what I can think right now is that not everybody idolizes the quote fearless leader. Like I remember with the one up here in Canada. A lot of people did have mixed opinions about him, like just the way he did things, there are all kinds of accusations of him being a sex offender, frankly, which, of course, I look back on that nowadays, and I think it might be true, but I can't really say for sure. So, yeah, that was my only thing about the movie is that not everybody's in agreement on the guy on top.

Samantha 19:22

Yeah. I, I mean, I think we all know that, like we were just saying that anytime there's a leader or someone that people vie to be, they literally want to take that person down and take their spot. And they think that they will be the next toppleable statue that will go in the ethno state and it's just simply not true. I thought what was sensationalized was I don't know, I can't really think about it because I was going to say the dumb guy, I think that was sensationalized, like, yes, they absolutely exist, but I don't think the far right would ever they'd ever actively put someone like that in such open, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. It's just the organization that I was in, that is not a part of my experience. The dumb guy was always made fun of.

Angela 20:07

I think that's the generational difference between when we were involved because there were absolutely characters that I knew that were absolutely put in those positions and were not the brightest crayons in the box that often were a liability and it still happened. Like, it, it, it was very contradictory, but also People like that were used as pawns, if it could be manipulated in, a certain way, but when I was involved, they absolutely existed.

Samantha 20:46

Yeah, I'll, I'll say that they absolutely existed and were real and were in the movement, and I think you brought up the really great point that they're pawns, and also for what it's worth, Absolutely. There are smart people in the movement, but those ideas are not smart. They're not good. They're not reasonable. They're not in alignment with reality. But yeah, I agree. I just don't think that any of the organizations would want a light shown on those people. And I also thought something that wasn't real was that they let the wife go to the house and plant the bomb. I can't tell you how many times there would be like an action that I. e. or other modern fart groups wanted to do and a woman would be like, Hey, can I help with this? Or can I do that? And they'd be like, no, we're here to protect the land and the treasure. And you're the treasure. You're supposed to be the, the reason we come home. You can't be a part of that. And like, you know, the men more often than not fucked it up. And then the women would have to fix it.

Lauren 21:45

Yeah, and I remember on several occasions, stuff would be our idea, like the women's idea, and the guys would carry it out.

Samantha 21:52

Yeah. So I, thought that, That was a little bit untrue in all of that, but I did think it was really interesting that that couple, their pillow talk was talking about killing people of color and like, what are we going to do that? And like, that's not sensationalized. Like that's wild to me. It's like, it was, it was very weird to look at that and be like, yeah, that, That's all you have in common with these people, so that's really all you really can talk about. Do we have anything else that we want to add that we think was sensationalized or not necessarily true about the movement?

Angela 22:26

Now, I can't really think of anything that didn't ring true, that didn't have me sitting there, like, having memories of people that I knew that fit, certain roles. The, situation with Felix's wife was exactly what a lot of us women have described for years of that conflicting you're on a pedestal, but you also get treated like dirt. You're also a pawn. And he, he wasn't physically abusive to her in the film, but I could envision abuse. I could envision like he seemed nuts, and I can also think of a whole list of Who cares? You that fit Felix's role too.

Samantha 23:15

you're absolutely right. Every person that was in the movement there, I was able to link to at least one person in real life where I was like, oh, that was like that person or that was like this person. Like these composites were very accurate to the personality types that were in the movement.

Lauren 23:30

Just a little add on, but Felix's wife, this is like a very accurate portrayal

Samantha 23:35

Yeah, they're like, I'm just a nice homemaker, I make cookies, but also I saw this newspaper article about this thing, and I'm going to use the most fucking vulgar language possible

Angela 23:44

But you know what? There's a whole other layer to that. She was keen to have a sense of belonging with the men, and what the men were talking about, and what they were doing. But at the same time, she wielded her whiteness. To cause or try to cause major harm and that to me is really reminiscent of the role of White women in the violent far right too.

Samantha 24:16

to kind of, jump on those coattails. I also thought it was really interesting that when they were doing that pillow talk, she had said thank you for giving me a purpose and a reason and all this stuff That is a great point that the movement, not just not just women, but like the far right white supremacy, all of that stuff absolutely feeds off of people that I mean that's something that I enjoyed about it was that I didn't have to do anything to be special in there. I just was.

Angela 24:46

I don't think it was an accident That she was portrayed as awkward overweight not Attractive really and more like a

Samantha 25:00

she would have, she was going to

Angela 25:01

a possession. Right. Right. don't think that was an accident. I, I would really love to know who he spoke to, where he got the information that he utilized. Like, I would love to know who informed that part of this.

Lauren 25:19

Yeah, I'd be curious to know that too, because even though that was accurate to some of the women that I do remember from that time, it wasn't accurate to all of them. And I say that because, a lot of the guys wives, that I used to be affiliated with, they actually used to be strippers and sex workers. So, like, a lot of them were, like, very self conscious of their looks, like, they would do anything to keep their weight, like, under a certain weight kind of thing. the hair, the makeup, everything had to be perfect. Guaranteed, it was either to cover the bruises or it was just because that's what was expected of them.

Samantha 25:50

Well, There were a lot of people when I was in the movement, too. They always said that they were post degeneracy. like, they used to listen to punk or, or grand core or fucking whatever music they clubbed, they did whatever. And then when they wanted to quote unquote, clean up, they came To the far right. there was a little bit of digging. Our intern did a little bit of digging. And it said that Spike Lee and the other writers wanted to draw parallels between the past and the present, highlighting the ongoing relevance of the issues depicted. They aimed to create a film that's both temp entertaining and thought provoking, and they use historical events on contemporary society. So I think all the people are composites, but I'm sure they looked at photos of the typical woman who was in the movement at the time and probably were like, this is what they typically look like. And and then the other running joke in the movement is kind of like, it doesn't really matter what you look like if you're in the far right, you're like an alt right, eight or nine, because there are so few women in the far right, like, any woman that joins is immediately three times hotter than she would be otherwise.

Lauren 26:49

I remember that too, because, I got all the compliments in the world when I was there, but I was called all kinds of things when people had kind of clued into the fact that I was leaving. And I'm like, all right, well, I can see where this is coming from. Y'all's little egos are so bruised that I'm leaving, how dare I?

Samantha 27:05

I wanted to move next on to what do we think the movie was overall about? And I, I had said that it mirrors the current state of things. It demonstrates how this all just keeps happening over and over and over. Every time there's a small step forward, there's a huge slide back. Why is the left so complacent every time they get a small win? It gave a sliver of a morsel of an understanding of what it meant to be black. When Who was it? What? Was it Kwame in the beginning or Kweli Tumay where he was cheering for the poachers to kill Tarzan or for Tarzan to kill the animals and, and just realizing that like as a black person, when you live in a certain system, you're actually hoping for your own destruction without even realizing it. And I thought that was pretty powerful hearing that was kind of like, Oh, that's also, that is how a lot of White people end up in the far right. They vote against their own interests without even realizing it. And that's not to say the black and white experience is the same, but it was just to kind of understand or to try and dig deeper into the movie even more. What did you guys think the movie was about?

Angela 28:05

I think it could be educational for white people because there were several things that are true and realistic that were highlighted. So, for instance, in the beginning, when Ron sees that hiring sign for the police station, it says, minorities encouraged to apply. So immediately I was like, okay, affirmative action is in here. There was another quote at some point when Duke and Ron were having one of the phone conversations and they were talking about quote unquote good black people versus not good black people. Another thing was. At one point, there was a conversation about Duke going mainstream and encouraging everyone to set their sights higher than where they were at, and that rings so true to what I know of the violent far right. I just feel for, for the general population that isn't deep into the kind of work and knowledge and information that we have. It's a history lesson. Like I would hope it encouraged people to look some of this stuff up and to be able to see like this is true. This is how people were treated. I mean, this is a different example, but. often younger generations don't even know about the holocaust and that would lead me to believe that there are other historical events, that they also don't know about For instance, they were describing Jesse

Samantha 30:03

Jesse Williams,

Angela 30:04

Jesse Williams, what happened to him the torture, the humiliation, the disgustingness that was wielded against that human being that's a true thing. And I would hope that people would say, Wow, I wonder if that really happened. let me look into this.

Samantha 30:25

That's what I did. Did you Google it? Because it is

Angela 30:28

I already knew about it.

Samantha 30:30

I did not. That was, ugh.

Angela 30:34

it is. It's horrible, and you know, I don't feel that I deserve to look away. Like, even watching this and being reminded, I still read about it again because it's a good reminder of history that can never be, like, allowed to be repeated.

Samantha 30:53

Yeah, I, I agree and I think it's worth it. Because we are, we are not so far away from it that it's ancient history. the generation before us was already alive and in school when integration, became a thing. Ruby Bridges is still alive. She is still kicking. I don't even think she's 70 or something. Like we don't have the luxury of acting like we're post all of this. We're nowhere near post all of it. In fact, we wouldn't even be this far if it wasn't legally demanded. And even though it is, there are still plenty of people. I thought how they did the the thin blue line, the brotherhood of cops where they're like, well, we just don't say anything. All of it. yeah, I'm totally with you on, on everything you just said. Sorry. Do we have anything that we want to add to that?

Lauren 31:43

Yeah, I think 1 last thing what the movie reminded me of was just what a waste of my own time being in that movement was because, I was in it for several years and I'm like, what did I really get out of it? Aside from a criminal record, a concussion and a bad liver. like, that kept coming back to me, especially near the end of the movie, because, like, just how the group implodes on itself, even without, the law enforcement presence there.

Angela 32:05

Yeah, which is pretty typical.

Samantha 32:08

yeah Yeah, oh,

Angela 32:11

how people of color and other minorities are affected by the movie. I can't imagine how horrifying it is to have and know their history and to then have the knowledge that these things are true, that there are still people working towards genocide, wiping them out. And best case, separatism, not supremacism. That's a mixed bag too. You remember at one part the Duke character said, I don't remember what terminology he used. He said, I don't hate black people. The organization doesn't hate black people. Where like. Your girlfriend and she would agree that we just need to stick with our own people. And that was a far cry like that to me depicted that pivot and shift to mainstream while there were these other violent aggressive core members that were like oh no there needs to be violence. We need to draw blood. We need to kill people of color. And, and so back to the original thing, that has to be so scary, disheartening, like I can't even imagine how it must feel for a person of color to have to see that and know that that's accurate.

Lauren 33:44

Well, and even like I hear those statements and stuff from some of the service participants that we still get, like the ones that are kind of half in half out, still engaged with the ideology. Oh, like, oh, we don't want genocide. We just want separatism or whatever. And I'm like, both are fricking harmful. Wait until you see that one day.

Angela 34:01

Mm hmm.

Samantha 34:02

Well, and the idea of separatism is meant for supremacy when they go back for segregation, they still want all white schools to get the funding they still want, It's not as if like, oh, yeah, everyone gets a piece of the pie. It's like, well, we kind of do, but you'll get the crust or you'll get the parts that we don't want. And I, I think that takes a long time to realize when you're in the movement that, when you say, oh, I'm just a separatist, it doesn't feel right. There's still the underline of supremacy in there. like, yeah, black people can live in their own town, but the country will still be run by white people. And I feel like that's kind of the unspoken elephant in the room when white people talk about it it's so softballed. Where white people are like, Oh, we just want our own space. And it's like, you still want to be in charge of everyone else. And if someone else makes a contribution to society or technology, you still want to be able to say, quote unquote, this is good enough for us. And then because white people approved of it, it became something white people did. And I think that's,

Lauren 35:02

Yeah. And I used to say this line all the time. Sometimes I will still use it. all the times when I hear, oh, we don't hate other races. We just love our own. I'm like, yeah, right. And I watch porn for the acting quality.

Samantha 35:15

Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren 35:17

They know in the back of their mind that it's not true. It's like, come out and say what you mean, that way we can challenge it.

Samantha 35:22

Exactly. Let me ask you guys this. Who in the movie do you think would have left by now? Do you think there were any potential formers in that movie?

Lauren 35:33

I would actually say Walter.

Samantha 35:35

That's what I, okay, good. That's what I said.

Angela 35:38

Yeah, Walter.

Samantha 35:39

Which, okay, good. Because he just, I felt so bad that, like, when I was watching it, oh, I was like, do I, feel for this guy? Like, does he come across as, like, not reasonable, but just kind of, like, is he stepping down so that he can leave because he's realizing how bad this is? I don't

Lauren 35:57

What I kind of noticed, like, I don't really have anything specific to back it up that I can think of right now. It's just the general vibe of him in the movie, he just seemed like he was fucking burnt out. And who could blame him, dealing with those idiots for however long he did it?

Samantha 36:11

Yeah. Well, and also, when, who was it? When Felix was questioning Flip and he was like, hey, you're going to scare away the recruits. Like, that is someone that is not quote unquote tough on the JQ or whatever, and so, like, no matter how reasonable, no matter how actually peaceful he wants to think he is, he is leading irrational, violent people. Like he might. remain racist for the rest of his life. But I do think that he would have left.

Angela 36:39

Or at least pivot to Duke's position of going mainstream and like, no more violence. Like, we're dressing up in suits now. Like, I could see him. And there was that one scene where he approached Duke and was like, I think I'd be good on the national level, like, put me in coach, put me in, I can do what you're doing

Samantha 37:03

Yeah. I, I think that is actually a really good, catch. I completely forgot about that part. With. the husband and with all those guys blowing themselves up. Do we think the wife would have stayed in the movement now that she was quote unquote used goods like she was married to this guy but he obviously is either going to jail or harmed do we think she's leaving like what do

Angela 37:25

I think she is like a sponge and whatever got to her and influenced her first, unless she went inward and really was willing, introspective, and had an inkling of, oh my god, like, if you think about it, she's the one that killed her husband, she put the bomb under the car. he blew up himself not knowing that it was under the car instead of in the mailbox because she couldn't get it in there. that to me was very ironic. you sent your wife to go do this, and you flip the switch, and it didn't go like you thought. Um, like, that was pretty nuts to me. But that's kind of the nature of the stupidity and ignorance of what they were doing.

Samantha 38:20

Yeah, absolutely. I think that was done really masterfully too, because it was like they built the bombs by themselves. They got everything like they did everything homegrown and for all intents and purposes, they did everything correctly, but there was still this fatal flaw in everything that they do that always shoots them in the foot. And that is, that is the movement as a whole. That is the way that it all is. Was there anything that we thought was really prescient? Like, you already brought it up, Angelo, but I really loved the scene where the captain or his boss or whatever, pulls Flip aside and he's like, you, or no, he pulls oh my God, the undercover guy. What is his name? Ron. When he pulls Ron, Ron aside and he's like, you really think that people aren't going to vote for someone like David Duke as a that's really naive of you. And I thought that was. So real. And then also as a very minor, I really loved that everyone was like, yeah, I love OJ. I just, I just thought that whole scene of the like, let's be black thing. I thought that was really, really endearing and really cute. And a way to kind of like cultures can be different and cultures can share. And I don't know, it was just a really cute scene of everyone trying to be cool, I guess.

Angela 39:35

I really went into some deep thought about ideology and self reflection and what we believe about ourselves when Flip explained that he was Jewish, but he wasn't raised Jewish. Because remember, Ron was like, do you have as much skin in the game as I do? Like, why aren't you in this? Why don't you care more about, this ideology and what they're saying? And like, I don't know. You're Jewish, they want you dead. And when he shared that, that was reflective to me of a lot of the program participants that we've seen over the years who come to us lacking a sense of identity. They're trying to find themselves. They're trying to reconcile life events, history, ancestry, all of these different things. And. Put them together in a way that it makes sense for them. And I thought that that was important that that was highlighted to it was expressed in a very clear way that, he was struggling with his own identity, like, what was expected of him versus what did he feel? So I appreciated that.

Lauren 40:46

I've often said this to you, just to kind of add on to what you were saying there. Don't expect someone to fight back and be on the good side if they aren't in a place of empowerment themselves. Like, the whole identity and empowerment piece needs to come first. I remember someone, when I was still in the movement, it was actually, like, an antifa or a sharp skinhead I forget how he self identified, but he was trying to convince me to, like, come over to their side oh, you do so much better over here, like, you're nice, whatever else, and I mean, I'm sure that more people than just me have had that experience, but I look back at that one now and I'm like, okay, dude, like I'm frigging homeless. Like a change of ideology isn't going to do anything for me right now. for me to straighten out my life, you know what I mean?

Angela 41:31

Yeah, there's foundational pieces that need to change before that's even a dress. And I think we see that with the individuals. That come to us so many times it doesn't even end up being about the ideology.

Lauren 41:46

It's everything else. Like the conversations I get into mostly are childhood trauma, just whatever's happened to them throughout their lives, whether it was in the movement or out of it. Oh,

Angela 41:58

Those adverse childhood experiences. did it strike you in any certain way, hearing that terminology and language and the slurs and the things repeatedly? Or you read the book, so how was it? Like, did it affect you?

Lauren 42:15

too. Honestly, something I've learned to do over time be mentally prepared for it. Cause I'm like, okay, we're going to see all kinds of language in this movie. But quite honestly, the ending piece is what got me the best. It's like, you racist peckerwood. I'm like, attaboy.

Angela 42:29

Yep. when he revealed that I was waiting for that as soon as they had that conversation about, well, I can always tell by the way white people pronounce certain words versus black people.

Samantha 42:44

Did you guys know that that actually didn't happen like the that is one part that wasn't true. David Duke never found out that he wasn't white until the publishers were fact checking the book. And then David Duke was like, are you? Yeah, in 2006. So like 30 years later, the, I can always tell crowd really messed that one up.

Lauren 43:08

Well, I can see why they would change it for the movie. just for the sake of a funny ending, right?

Samantha 43:14

So satisfying ending. Yeah.

Angela 43:16

Like some bit of closure or some bit of fuck you. I got you. Yeah, absolutely.

Samantha 43:22

I also wanted to say, and I'm very curious on y'all's take on it. Angela, when you were talking about how Ron went to Flip and was like, you have skin in the game? Like you're Jewish. And he's like, well, I wasn't like raised Jewish. Like, whatever, whatever. I think that was a really interesting way to bring up that, the far right doesn't think Jewish people are white, and also, does it matter or does it make them value less, whether they are or aren't? like, who fucking cares? I saw this comedian named Moshe Kasher when I first left the movement. I saw him in like 2018 and it was, it was in the very beginning of like, how do I support a good cause, try to learn something, blah, blah, blah. And he was a Jewish comedian and he had Jewish openers. And one of his openers basically said that Jewish people are white enough to feel safe around cops, but not white enough to feel safe around other white people. And that was like, such a weird, I don't know. That was just such a weird thing to think about. But yeah, I thought that was really interesting that I wonder if the general public picked up on, like, kind of the introduction to that conversation or, if that is such a stupid fucking paranoia that the far right has that, like, only people like us that were in the far right were like, wow, he's bringing up the JQ. But That was probably just us. Probably just me, honestly.

Angela 44:40

There was one. I don't, I don't even remember. There was one rant from someone. I think it was Flip when he was really playing it up and trying to get into the organization. Where he was like, yeah, fuck the N words. Fuck like he had racial slurs for Hispanic people, and he added in there the mix, which right?

Samantha 45:07

Oh, yeah.

Angela 45:08

And a few others that I was like, wait a minute, if you're discounting these people, who is included now?

Samantha 45:17

Which, I mean, again, like, what was it, a hundred years ago? Italian people weren't considered white? Like, Irish people weren't considered white? I mean, even when I was in And again, this was almost a decade ago. that was still a running joke. Like, one of the jokes that I used to say was like, Polish people aren't white. Just because that's such a ridiculous thing to say that, like, I just thought it was funny. I thought it was edgy to say in the movement, like, I'm so hardcore that not even Polish people are white. But like, it doesn't have to make sense for the movement to like it.

Lauren 45:49

It depends who you ask. Like, I found a lot of those statements. If I look back on them, they're set at a shock value. And another angle here, I guess, is for me being part Italian, I remember some of the guys were okay with that. Some of them weren't, but the ones who weren't okay with it already didn't like me in the first place.

Samantha 46:05

Oh, yeah. that's what I mean, like, none of this is about, science or actual ideology. It's just a way to, carrier your own prejudices. And make excuses for them. Like, you can just simply say, like, yeah, I had a bad experience with an Italian person, and I've decided to generalize that to all Italian people. Instead, it has to be like, no, they have certain types of blood, and it's like, when the fuck has an Italian person ever bled on you and, like, gotten you sick or something? You know what I mean? Like, that, like, who gives a shit?

Lauren 46:34

I did that for the longest time, actually, with, uh, Greek people? No. Sorry, that was funny. No, I actually did that for the longest time with Greek people, because my first ever boyfriend when I was in high school was Greek. Let's just say the breakup wasn't a very good one or civilized one at all.

Samantha 46:50

I think everyone has that, something that I keep turning to, is like, we think about the people that blame, like, I lost my friend in the military, and that, this, that, and the other, and that led me to the far right, like, I broke up with a guy who was Greek, and I decided to hate all Greek people, There are plenty of people in the military who watched their best friends die in combat and did not become extremists. There are plenty of people that have been mugged or raped or someone stole money or cheated on an exam of a different race. And that doesn't suddenly color their experience to every other person. And I think that's where I personally have started examining, like when I had these prejudices, where did they really come from? So I think that was just something Spike Lee really did a masterful job of showing the different kinds of prejudice and the different kinds of racism and things that exist in the world that can happen for any reason.

Angela 47:45

Yes, institutional versus overt. It was all in there in ways that were true to life examples of what's actually occurring.

Samantha 47:57

Yeah. Oh, and then two more points. Before we start to wrap it up, one was I did love in the beginning where, and let me know if they have this in the book too, where they first have Ron go to a black student union thing and they were like, wow, they're talking about a revolution that sounds so violent and Ron was like, I don't really think they're going to do that. I think they're just trying to like amp each other up. And then they have Adam driver flip go to a KKK meeting and they're like literally talking about. Killing people and Adams and Adam driver is just like, well, I don't really think they're going to do it. And it's like, it's such a difference between the vague terminology that was taken as a threat versus actual detailed planning with using the word bombs and fireworks but that somehow wasn't taken seriously. And that was the one that was being planned. And then also how, of course at the end, Once their little undercover thing ended, the police chief was like, okay, now delete all the files. Like, I know all three of us, between all of the work for law enforcement or all the people that have approached us, that was also extremely true to life, in my opinion. Like, uncomfortably true to life.

Angela 49:07

How do we bury this one?

Samantha 49:10

yeah, yeah. And we mean the information, not the body. were there any bad depictions that were like, unfair you thought? This is the last question that I really have before we wrap it up.

Lauren 49:20

for me, and y'all are gonna laugh at me for this, my only complaint is that they left all the homoerotic stuff out that happens behind closed doors. I would've wanted to see some of that in the movie.

Samantha 49:29

Yeah, that's fair.

Angela 49:31

Well, remember when when Felix asked Flip to show him his dick And And Flip was like what you want to see my Jewish dick? Well, like what are you a fag or something? And That was the closest I think it came to some of that but for real like That's, some true shit that like, I could totally see happening, like, pull out all your dicks so we can see if you're circumcised,

Samantha 50:00

Yeah, which is, again, also so funny because in America, especially, circumcision is very common.

Angela 50:08

it is,

Samantha 50:09

But yeah, you're absolutely right. That was a great, that was a great depiction. I guess to wrap it up, overall, I thought this movie was masterful. I thought it was so, so good. Like Spike Lee, yet again, another hit. I thought it was great. I, I really have no notes for it. the things that I didn't even like were just my own personal perspective. Like just everything about it was so good. And I do want to take a minute and at the end of the film, they had a couple of minutes dedicated to the Unite the Right rally and they dedicated the film to Heather Heyer and obviously definitely cried at that. I actually haven't watched footage of that in a little while. And that really hit me. And again, Spike Lee found a way to depict and show the real life violence that happens, and it didn't feel glorified, it didn't feel grotesque or gratuitous, it was very much just like, this whole movie happened, and took place 60, 50, 60 years ago, and when that movie came out, that footage was 6 months old. that really, really hit. So that's my final take from it, if you guys want to share yours.

Angela 51:15

He added that it was very poignant raising the alarm, like, look what was happening. All these decades ago and look what's still happening today in the name of racism or anti semitism and it was chilling, but I think it's absolutely necessary Like we can't afford to shy away from this reality I Really enjoyed the movie. It wasn't difficult to watch, but there were some difficult pieces to kind of digest and hear and see, but I'm down.

Lauren 51:54

I would say it's one of those movies where, it's always going to be relevant for as long as the far right is around, because I've always kind of said history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it does rhyme, if that makes sense.

Samantha 52:05

Absolutely. Thank you guys for talking about this movie. I think it's great. It sounds like you guys really liked it, too I was looking at some trivia, but I did find out that this was Harry Belafonte's last movie appearance before his death and when he came on set Spike Lee made everyone dress up in suits and ties to kind of like respect Harry Belafonte. I thought that was so sweet I was like, oh man,

Angela 52:27

yeah. That

Samantha 52:29

But yeah, the next movie that we are discussing is The Zone of Interest but thank you guys so much for coming on and I will talk to you soon.

Angela 52:38

Thanks for having me.

Lauren 52:40

Thanks.

Samantha 52:40

Bye!