Movie Night- Imperium w/ Alec Kerrigan

The film Imperium, starring Daniel Radcliffe, is discussed.

www.thedailyformer.com

Transcript

0:15

Welcome to movie night, a movie review series from the daily, former in each episode, we're taking movies that have some sort of link to the far, right. Either by depicting the movement by espousing the ideology, or maybe the far edge is like sees movies. And we want to call that out.

Samantha 0:30

so we are having a conversation on Imperium. It's a 2016 movie it stars Daniel Radcliffe as an undercover police officer who is there to infiltrate a white supremacist group that's potentially plotting an act of terrorism. So I have a couple of questions I want to ask before we get into, kind of the categories and general analysis of it. Alec and Angela, what is your relationship to this movie? Had you seen it before this conversation? And if so, where were you in life? And if you hadn't seen it, what did you expect it to be?

Alec 1:00

I saw this movie about a year ago and to be honest, I saw it because of the memes. Specifically that scene at the rally with Daniel Radcliffe goes around Twitter quite a bit. so I was well out of the movement when I first saw it. I was expecting it, honestly, to just kind of be, Daniel Radcliffe goes into a skinhead group. They're like cartoonishly violent and evil, and eventually he saves the day. I was not at all expecting what the movie actually turned out to be.

Samantha 1:31

Angela?

Angela 1:32

I had not watched it before. I had heard about it. And all I knew was that it had something to do with the far right and that Daniel Radcliffe was in it. You know, I've seen little trailers or, like Alex said, memes or photos and, you know, I was just making light, picturing Harry Potter in my head

Samantha 1:53

the first thing that I wrote in my notes for what I was expecting it to be was Harry Potter cosplays as the ultimate muggle. And like,

Alec 2:00

I, I have a few alternative titles I want to run past you guys about which one you would prefer. I have Harry Potter and the Fed Post Prince. Fashy Beasts and Where to Find Them Harry Potter and the Order of Fuentes, and then Imperium, but with a V instead of a U.

Samantha 2:18

you know, I'm going to do Empyrean with a V instead of a U. But I really love the fashy beasts and where to find them. That's

Angela 2:24

Yeah, that's my, that's my favorite alternative.

Samantha 2:28

yeah, that will be I feel like we should just refer to it as Fashy Beast now. do we think the far right liked this movie, and if so or if not, like, did it mean anything to them?

Angela 2:38

I wouldn't think so. They get busted at the end, but, you know, I've observed a lot of when they see something that's depicted as them, it's like any publicity is good publicity. So I could just see the old, crowd of skinheads that I used to roll with being like, yeah, yeah, but. Overall,

Samantha 2:59

yeah, I, honestly, I think I have to disagree with that, because The guy who throws the, we in my iteration would call them pool parties, but the who's throwing the barbecue, listens to classical music on records is clearly educated, works a white collar job those were a lot of people that I actually interacted with in the movement, and He never demonstrated an act of violence in the film until the very end and I know that the far right would have seen that and been like he's defending his people or whatever. So I, I think the far right would have seen that character as a martyr and they would have appreciated his role in the film. I think all of them, everyone that was in the movement in this film was smarter than, than when you were first initially introduced to them. They're not just like, you know, hunks of skin that are ready to fight. Like they strategize, they have infiltration tactics. They plan on doing all of these things. And I also thought it was even really smart to have their, little fantasy Alex Jones in there because that also is as true. But what about you, Alec? What do you think?

Alec 4:04

I mean, I think if you were to show any of them this they would all say what they always say about depictions of the far right, which is that, you know, you stereotype us, none of us are that violent, we're very, poised, calm w we know what we're talking about, all of the stereotypes are there to demean us, or But I would say this movie, more than any other movie I've watched on the far right, has their number. Which is they're not violent up until the very moment that they are. you have the book club who, seems like good family men until they lose their minds and want to do a Timmy McVeigh. You have the and I'll, I'll love to talk about this more. You have the skinheads who are like, we're thinking man soldiers. And then you even have the Aryan Alliance guys and all of that who are all like, yeah, we're just going to do a peaceful march. But as soon as the anti fascists start, protesting a little too loudly, half the group wants to jump in and crack heads, which I think we can both agree was very much what the goal was at Charlottesville.

Samantha 5:06

yeah I actually checked after I watched it because of that scene specifically, where they were all talking about the rally and, just all the infighting and everyone trying to kind of take the lead. I had to check and make sure that this was done before the Unite the Right rally, and so many of these, I was like, were they watching? Like, were they in on this? So many scenes in here were reminiscent of, Things that I observed while I was in there, and it was, like, really shocking to me. But I 100 percent agree with you, I was actually going to talk about The Aryan alliance and how it was kind of, like every person that was in this film is a composite of, of a different type of person in the movement. Black Klansman was really accurate in terms of actually understanding how the far right views itself. This was very accurate in seeing how the far right actually operates. Like there are people infiltrating, there are people trying. I,

Angela 5:58

I would say, I would add to that and just say that I saw a marriage of different iterations of the violent far right. It was staggered and the way that they set up the infighting and the drama was very accurate. I think they didn't play on it enough because I've been to things like that. I've been in the middle of trying to mix the different groups. You remember when the Aryan Alliance dude and what was other dude's name? Vince or something? I don't remember. Like the leader of that other little skinhead

Alec 6:34

were called like Panzer Strike or something.

Angela 6:36

right? they started to have an issue about the beliefs of the Aryan Alliance. he was like, I think he's a little more realistic or rational or something. So those things rang very, very true to me. But it is interesting to see the depiction of different iterations kind of mashed together and, a version of how that might or might not work.

Alec 7:04

So one thing I was curious about is what time this is supposed to take place in. they mention Obama's inauguration. So it's definitely. between 2008 and 2016. The book it's based off of, I believe, it's like a memoir of an actual FBI agent. the, the terrorist plot in question didn't happen, but the various things that he saw, I'm aware of. Did so it seems like they did take some of what he saw and tried to like update it to where it would take place in modern times. Obviously this movie was came out in 2016 but produced in 2015. So they were a bit too soon to really get into all the alt right stuff. But I think what they had with that one conference was close enough to like American Renaissance and whatnot that it it's it's pretty accurate.

Samantha 7:51

yeah, I felt they had the finger on the pulse of the whole thing. Like, I was truly surprised. Especially in the beginning when Toni Collette, when she was talking about, domestic terrorism, when she talked about James Cummings, I obviously Googled that to make sure that he was a real person. I didn't know about those things. And I'm finding that I'm actually very naively unaware of a lot of terrorist plots, but I thought it was great that she was able to just very clearly and directly be like, you know, these are the objectives. This is how these groups operate. This is why, this is why I think you would be good because you're human. And these people are people. I thought that was a really important reiteration that she made throughout the film. And I appreciated the fact that she didn't do the like, these guys are monsters. You need to beat them at their own game. It was very much like, just connect with them, be a person. That is how this works. Next question is, who is this movie good for? And is this movie good in general? I thought the movie was actually really good. I think the way that the soundtrack played out, I was expecting there to be a much larger Denouement. I expected there to be way more violence. But I also really liked the fact that there wasn't any. There was a lot of plotting and a lot of intrigue and a lot of suspense, but again, that is how the is. There is no violence until there is. I thought the movie was good for anyone that really wants to understand different iterations of the far right of how they see themselves, how they try to build these hierarchies. But again, there are always people that are trying to tumble them or take over the role of the king in the castle. It was a very interesting look at the far right, I think.

Alec 9:25

Yeah, if I if I wanted to tell someone hey, if you want to see a depiction of what it's really like living in it, because a lot of these movies are sort of From the perspective of someone from the outside, like, here are the bad things that the far right does. And not, here's what it's like to live in this world day to day. I think this is the best movie that does it. As for whether it's a good movie I think once they reveal the twist, the ending dragged on a little bit but I thought it was a very good movie looking at like the negative reviews and rotten tomatoes they're mostly from people who feel the final act rides on too long and then there are people who say that it's too sympathetic to the far right? Which I thought was an interesting take.

Samantha 10:11

that is an interesting. I mean, I think I found it to be. And again, we might not see it as too sympathetic because we do know that in all of these movies, they're the bad guys. So there's no sympathy to be brokered from us. But I found it to be accurate more than sympathetic. that barbecue where the two guys were fighting and the host was, you know, the language, there are kids here. Like that was, I cannot tell you how many times I've been to a pool party and that had happened. So that was just a wild, it really felt like they just took a chunk out of the average alt writers experience and put it in that film. What about you, Angela? Do you think it's a good movie? And if so, who do you think it's good for?

Angela 10:52

glad I checked it out. It's not something that I would like watch repeatedly or dig into again, unless I really had a reason. But I think it's good informationally to educate. like you were mentioning, the information that they share about terrorist plots that have been halted, about ones that weren't halted, they give a lot of information without it feeling like you're being educated. So they talk about the history of it, like when Toni Collette was talking to him, which you mentioned earlier, and she's going through the books and she's like, This says this in here and read this. I did find it a little sympathetic, but I think the general public does not go into a movie like this thinking, wow, I'm going to come out of this feeling like those are human beings just like anybody else. I see how the ugliness of what they're doing, the violence that they're trying to make happen would feel offensive and ugly. And I think that Daniel Radcliffe's character should a little bit of empathy with them. He kept having those flashes of like, they're humans. And I don't know if you noticed, but they would flash very quickly, like a picture of a Klansman, but then something else, there's visions of the kids playing. And the fact that they were sitting there having tea and listening to classical music, like that's not something that I ever saw. in real life.

Samantha 12:32

on Wednesdays, we had fireside chats. With the leaders of the group that I was in, and it was very much like a legacy, honor, you know, consider the future, this is what human biodiversity is, very much fancied itself an intellectual organization, so that was unfortunately very real for me. Alex, do you have anything you wanted to add or anything?

Alec 12:54

On this question, no, like, definitely I think The attempted rebranding that the alt right was leaned heavily into, We love classical music. I believe the group that I was in did, like, a field trip to the opera once. And I'm like, I'm pretty confident nobody actually wanted to do that, but it's kind of like a, hey, we're all big about our, European white heritage or whatever, but, you know, they absolutely were into that kind of stuff.

Samantha 13:21

Yeah. I mean, that was, the cover was we like to keep in shape. We like to be the best that we can be. And so when they talked about exercising and they talked about we're sparring with each other because that's, that's men. That's what men do. and also so that when Rahoa starts, we're strong enough. You know, and, and opera and all that stuff, staying in tuned with your culture. I agree with you 100%. I don't think anyone in there really enjoyed that, but. that's how intellectualism works. You're supposed to like classical music and Rococo art and reject jazz, which will always bother me. Alec, before we move on to the categories, do you want to do a quick synopsis? And I do want to warn everyone that we will likely have spoilers. So if you haven't seen it and you want to watch it for yourself, pause this, and then come back and Feel free to, to listen on but yeah, like if you want to do a quick synopsis or reveal the twist that'd be great.

Alec 14:14

Yeah, I think it's difficult to discuss if we don't reveal the twist, but basically Daniel Radcliffe is a Sort of a newbie FBI investigator who is on a case involving a shipment of cesium from North Africa. And they believe it's going to be used in a terrorist attack. The FBI is mostly going after Islamic communities, but one of the women in the FBI has her eye on white supremacist terror, and specifically believes that this might come from a white supremacist group because of a kind of a podcaster blowhard, Alex Jones, kind of a daily show a type Dallas Wolf, who's talking about something sounding similar to a terrorist attack. So she presents it to Daniel Radcliffe. Why don't you go and infiltrate these groups and try and find out? where it's coming from. And so, Daniel Ratliff kind of jumps between various groups that are loosely connected. There's the Panzer Strike Force, which is sort of a your typical street skinhead groups, just a couple of guys. There's the Aryan Alliance, which is much closer to a more national organized white nationalist group. There's Dallas Wolf. Who's the podcaster guy. There's just the clan, the clans in here. And then there's a guy named Jerry who runs a book club with his wife and a few friends. And the twist at the very end is that the, the podcast or just a blowhard is after money. The Aryan Alliance people are just for show. The skinheads just are kind of just. There because they're lost kids. The people doing the terrorist attack was in fact Jerry's book club the engineer guy the jazz listening the book reading the cupcake Baking family are the ones who are trying to blow up the DC water system.

Samantha 16:04

Thank you. That was, that was really great. So what I want to do is move into categories because I think that will be the most, I think that'll just be the most interesting thing to talk about. And then we can kind of have our final thoughts, our review views, the first category that I have is what was the most accurate portrayal of the far right? And I think I like the way that you actually just described it, that these are like loosely connected organizations where when need be there's a united front, but overall, none of these groups. really want too much to do with each other. They more or less want to dominate each other as well. The swastika cupcakes was accurate. The classical music was accurate. Honestly, I would, I would say most of the movie was very accurate to what I saw while I was in there. Just the way that people acted, the way that there was a lot of posturing. There was a lot of machismo. There was a lot of women being hyper feminine. You know, again, for performance, I just, I felt it was very accurate. What about y'all?

Angela 17:05

I did too. I picked up on things that were reminiscent of my time, the way they treated the fresh cut kid. You know, they were always messing with him. I will say though that his faux hawk would have gone over when I was involved, like they would have held them down and been like, you take all that hair off the street violence. The drunken violence. Obviously. Yes. And the fact that the groups don't get along and the exchanges between them are. Bordering on pretty aggressive and they're operating behind each other's back and you can tell they're very distrustful of 1 another.

Alec 17:50

Yeah, I think I have to agree a lot with what Samantha says about just generally the way they interact with each other. But there was one scene there's a few scenes I like, but there's one in particular, one line that stuck out. And it's when Daniel Radcliffe is talking with Jerry and asking, like, why do you have to bring the skinheads here? Like, these are guys with, with bolts on their neck and everything, swastikas on their fist. And he's like, Why bring them their thugs? And Jerry's just like, well, we can't exclude them. And I found that

Samantha 18:20

You exclude everyone else.

Alec 18:23

well, it's that, but also like the groups we were a part of, their whole thing was you're not allowed to display any support of fascism or Nazism. We have to make everyone think we're like a hipster European youth group or whatever. But when push comes to shove, we can't not march with the Nazis, you know, it's like, well, it's the old you got 10 people at a dinner table. One's a Nazi, you have 10 Nazis at a dinner table, right? if you really, really think there's something wrong with wearing bolts on your neck and beating up interracial couples, why do you feel the need to to ally with them so much? And because at the end of the day, they don't really disagree with each other.

Samantha 19:00

yeah. And I, I, I mean, I don't know. I'm sure you remember that even in our organization, if we found out that there was membership in another group, even if it was private, you were asked to leave one of them. They literally use the term, we do not want you serving two masters. I mean, look, there are organizations in the far right or that will take anyone, you know, if you look at TRS, that's an amalgamation of everyone that's in there. They're kind of just a podcast behind a paywall. And if you pay and you listen, you're in their fan club. And that really is what the far right is, as much as they try and, I mean, when I left, I remember I was arguing with this I'll, I'll leave his name out, but and he kept trying to say like, well, all the groups are the same. And I kept trying to be like, no, there's nuance. I know it doesn't make sense to you, but there are these differences in all of these groups that made me interested in joining IE and not or not And there are groups that. There are reasons people wanted to join those groups and not IE, and we were the optics cocks. However, exactly like you said, Alec, in every public action that we did, if someone wanted to flash a swastika, like we would frown upon it, but we wouldn't kick them out of the group. it was a slap on the wrist, but there was never an actual Discipline or anything like that. So I do. Yeah, I think that was very accurate. Was there anything else we wanted to add to that? Oh, I also thought the line that was pretty accurate. When Tony Collette, was talking to Daniel Radcliffe, and she said that the lone wolf is not a person. It's a it's like a plan where it's like a, like a way of thinking. I thought that was so smart for it to be brought up these are not just people that go on by themselves. they are encouraged by networks and by all kinds of things. And this is another strategy that the far right uses so that there is no group that can be blamed for it. I thought that was, A really important distinction to make. I'd actually never heard it in a movie about the far right before. I was really, really surprised at how they talked about it.

Alec 21:00

Yeah, I do want to talk about it more in another question, but the idea that it's rarely the guys who are in these organized groups who are carrying out the violence, it's people who consume their content, you know, it's the people who are not attending those rallies that are often committing the violence because you know, if only 1 percent of people are capable of carrying out violence. the chance that one of them's in your group is low, but the chance that there's a few of them in your movement that is based around destroying other groups of people is very high. And so the Aryan alliance getting together and doing a mass shooting together, it's going to be some random guy.

Samantha 21:41

Precisely. Absolutely. Was there anything you wanted to add to that, Angela, or any other thoughts that you thought were very accurate to the far right?

Angela 21:49

My mind is spinning on so many different pieces of it right now. I thought that there were some things that were really interesting, like the filmmaker left a breadcrumb trail. Basically, if, if, like, the general public is interested in learning more about this, they drop just the right things. Timothy McVeigh, the Turner diaries. You know, this is this belief system. and they used historical events, you know, that are right there. All you have to do is use the Google and the Aryan alliance. It really I was surprised when like the head FBI dude was like, we ran all the serial numbers and all the guns are clean. They're all purchased legally. I was like, wait a minute. That's not

Samantha 22:36

Well, that's our next category. That's our next category. All right. Well, then we'll get to that one. What is the most sensationalized portrayal of the far right? Angela, what's the most, in your opinion, what's the most sensationalized part of the far right?

Angela 22:49

They would not have had all legal guns. I understand that that group operates differently and obviously To a different set of standards than like the street thug skinheads and the classical music listeners. But even in those, those kind of groups and organizations, there is illegal activity. There are illegal firearms. There are, you know, people walking around carrying that don't have permits. So that for me, I was like, nah, I call bullshit on that one,

Samantha 23:25

I also, want to reiterate that I almost feel like that was the point with having Jerry's Book Club be the terrorist cell, was that, like, these groups, the more benign they try and come across, I, I've described it as wolves in sheep's clothing, where the more plain clothes, the more forgettable you look, that typically implies that you have Plans that you don't want to be found out about. Which is again, like I, you know, if we want to talk about them blaming Antifa and doing all that stuff, Antifa dresses up because they want to look more intimidating because they're not actually intimidating people. The far right has to wear khakis and loafers so that they don't look like what they actually are. And I think that's a good thing to remember, but for me, the most sensational is, the one thing that I really found was when they were in the diner, and he was like, 1488 brother, and like, the way that they greeted each other, I was like, get out of here. Like, I,

Alec 24:17

I'm going to disagree with there because I'd had that exact experience at a diner. So it was you can bleep out where this was, but it was after an action before Charlottesville. And unfortunately, we were with other people who were not in the group. So people who were not vetted and all that kind of stuff. And we went into the diner and these other people just start seek hiling and saying shit like that out in the open. And I actually, Pulled the I the IE people away and like say hey, we can't be near them while they're doing this Which is like another example of how can you say that you're different from them? If the most you do is kind of pull yourself off to the side while they're worshiping Hitler You know, like you don't you

Samantha 25:05

You don't leave the room. Yeah.

Alec 25:07

Yeah, it does seem a little weird and that's, I think, the most sensationalist part. I wouldn't say sensationalist, but like, inaccurate. And some of the language was a little you know, playful. I don't think I ever heard someone say mud people. And that's like what the children were saying. And I kind of think, Oh, really?

Samantha 25:24

Yeah, in IE the, the women's coordinator before me, and I apologize for using this term, but she would call women that dated men of color mud sharks. she would always be like, yeah, I came across one of those today. And she would just talk about it all the time. They were just bottom feeders that loved to eat dirt.

Angela 25:41

Yeah, it was common language when I was involved using that term.

Alec 25:46

Yeah. I would say that if there's anything inaccurate, it's mostly on the margins. From what I look, I looked online. A lot of the research was actually done by Daniel Radcliffe himself. he brings up in interviews a lot, that whole distinction, you know, made between Christians and pagans and all of that. So I think he may have just come across some like stormfront discussion and it like stuck in his mind or something like that.

Samantha 26:10

he said that he read a lot of memoirs from people that had left the far right. So I was like, Oh, I wonder who, like, we might know them. But yeah, I was really impressed with how detailed his research was. And he really kind of like, for lack of a better term, without outright joining, really immersed himself in all of it. But yeah, I thought that was great. I, and I guess if we want to, I think the last thing that I would say is I thought it was a little unreal that the Aryan Alliance has, has a blueprint literally of how to poison a water line. And they're like, they're not going to do it. and then they like shut everything down and then Daniel Radcliffe goes to say goodbye. And this guy was like, actually, why don't you join my terrorist cell? I just, I didn't see that as being real. The idea that these guys have plans, they have the weapons to do it, they have all of these things, and you just think that it's just fronting so that they can get recruits? Like, that is all conspiracy right

Angela 27:07

And he was pushy about it. Like, he was pushy trying to get them to accept him. So, yeah, sorry, I interrupted you.

Samantha 27:17

No, no, no, I'm totally with you. And then also when they went to his house in the beginning and the one guy like sees the tape on his couch and he doesn't lift up the cushion. He was just like, oh, you have some cheap furniture. It's like, oh,

Alec 27:29

Those all seem like problems with the, the writing and filmmaking more so than the depictions.

Samantha 27:34

Yeah, but I mean, we can pick nets if we want to. But yeah,

Angela 27:37

There, there's more. Like, they used footage of Klan people saluting with the wrong arm. They were showing backward swastikas.

Samantha 27:49

I noticed that, but I don't know. I don't mind seeing an incorrect swastika. for some reason I just, I just assumed that maybe there were some people that were extras, that were like, I'm not going to actually see Kyle. I'll use the wrong arm. But I don't know, maybe that's just me making excuses for them. Okay, next category, Overall, what was the message of this movie? Like, what was it really about?

Alec 28:13

I would, I would say pretty clearly it's just trying to say that terrorism can come from anywhere. it's getting sort of at what everyone's come to know about the alt right, which is that the old stereotypes don't apply and, your neighbor could be the next Timothy McVeigh or something along those lines. I think it almost served more as a survey of the far right, than having any particular message about them. And I think it was also, trying to say like, these are, these are real people. That's not to say that they are good people or they're all redeemable, but rather that these aren't like, Demons, they're normal people who, got radicalized in some respect. And if if we want to actually deal with the far right, we have to start from the assumption that they are living lives pretty similar to ours. This guy who's doing the terrorist attack, he's a engineer. He has a family, he has kids and all of that kind of stuff. But on his weekends, he's planning, you know, a dirty bomb blast.

Samantha 29:18

Yeah, I don't really have a whole lot to add. That's kind of how I took it as, that like, it was, It was meant to show that this really could be anyone. And also if you're in the organization, I know there's a lot of fed posting in there and all that stuff, but someone knows what you're doing. That's that, that was also kind of what I took from it. Angela, did you have anything you want us to add?

Angela 29:36

I think. I'm sticking with what I mentioned about they left a breadcrumb trail. And I, I, I'm hoping it's for educational purpose. so the general public can say, okay, wow, this is happening And I think there's a, a message in there that, you know, for so long we pointed the finger at Islamic extremists and, History has shown us that there is quite a lot that has come out of the violent far right over the past four decades. And we don't hear as much about it.

Samantha 30:10

Yeah. Or although we hear about it regularly, it's always a one off event. It's always a lone wolf. it's this person must have a lot of issues. It's not that they're part of a

Angela 30:20

Mental health. And notice that they when The Tony Collette character was explaining Timothy McVeigh. She very distinctly said he wasn't crazy. He was this, he was this, he was this. He did not have mental health issues. He was intelligent. And I think that's part of the message too, but that leads back into what you two were just talking about, is that it could be anybody. You don't know.

Samantha 30:51

I mean, I know that when I was in there. I had told people that I was in the alt right and they didn't believe me because I was plucky. I was kind of annoying and how chipper I was like, it couldn't be me. I was too nice in my personality. that is what allowed me to do a lot of the things that I did. Because even if I did, they were just like, Oh, that's Sam though. You know, she's, she's just a silly goose. Next category, who would be a former by now? My hope is that Jerry's kids would be that was really hard when they were building the treehouse and they were like, Oh, we're doing this in case the mud people come. And it was like, man, that's, I saw that in there too. There are people who's cable box passwords were 1488. And it was just really tough to like, remember how often I saw that happening. But I would hope them and maybe his wife But I, yeah, those are the three people that I was hoping would definitely leave

Alec 31:45

Isn't that one kid with the fauxhawk? It doesn't he literally become like a public speaker at the end?

Samantha 31:50

Yeah, Joey. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Alec 31:52

yeah.

Samantha 31:53

It's

Angela 31:53

That's the one I was hoping for, and then at the end, that was a nice little, oh, okay.

Samantha 32:00

they made him shave off his mohawk. He was like, you know what, this isn't for me.

Angela 32:04

Grow it out.

Samantha 32:06

Yeah, I was also really surprised that they didn't do More catching up with all the other people in the movement after this mass terrorist thing was was plotted like they didn't kind of at least say I don't know, I know it was fiction, but it would have been good to be like these guys got life in prison or this happened or this guy, you know, completed suicide before his trial, just to kind of be like, it's this bad. What was the most prescient? Was there anything in the movie that you felt was You know, what's really wild is I think the movie itself was very prescient Like I said, I had to check and make sure that it was released before the unite the right rally because watching so much of it felt like they were taking clips of experience that I had in the movement. What about you guys?

Alec 32:47

Yeah I literally did actually check multiple times But back when I first watched it and now wait was this before unite the right because in fact August It was released in August of 2016 Which I believe was before Hillary Clinton's big speech where she used the word alt right and people started using it. Which is funny, because in the Wikipedia article the Dallas Wolf guy is described as, quote, an alt right radio personality. And I don't even think that term was in common parlance back then. but there's one scene in it that Kind of goes by quickly, but it's when one of the Panzer strike guys says, we're thinking man soldiers first here and then here. Right. And it reminded me because recently I was in an interview where I got the comment that I noticed that the people in your movement are really well read. And it's the same thing with this Jerry guy. telling Daniel Radcliffe, yeah, man, it was the books. It was the books. I read the books. This is what everyone in the alt right will tell you, but you can rest assured, nobody has actually sat down, been a normal person, read a book, and then said, you know what? I hate blacks and Jews now. What actually happens is something else radicalizes them. Whether it be community like that kid or in our case with the alt right for Chan, Reddit, YouTube videos, that sort of thing, this sort of content you consume kind of becomes your personality for a bit. And as you get deeper into it the issue is that a lot of the people in the alt right are typically very younger, wealthier, more suburban, more college educated, and it's very hard if you grew up in that demographic to just admit I'm a white nationalist. It's easier to say, well, I read a bunch of books and the facts were just right in front of me, you know? And everyone I, I met in the alt right was like that, is that they came in through 4chan or for the Daily Show or any of these. more, I guess, infotainment Nazi things. And they would, after the fact, go and read a book to now intellectualize what they believed. And I think like the biggest example of that was Culture

Samantha 34:58

Culture of critique. Oh,

Alec 35:00

Yeah. They all circle jerked over that book so much. I remember in like mid 2016, when they all found out about it, but they already hated Jews. They thought that they were parasites. And Controlled the banks and academia and whatever the books are just what they read after the fact but they do say like yeah, it's it's first here and I bet that Jerry guy There's probably something else that got him in first. He probably was like a rank and file, you know, conservative who, you know, he says like, Oh yeah, I went to Kenya and found out that they weren't civilized or whatever. It was probably something

Samantha 35:34

I don't believe

Alec 35:34

like, if, if, there's something to take away, There's always something a lot more banal that gets people radicalized. And like my case, it was 4chan. I'd like to say that I, I read The Bell Curve and I read White Identity, I read Coils Retreat. No, I just spent too much time on 4chan. These skinhead guys, they, they probably dropped out of high school, drank too much, got went to a heavy metal concert and made a friend. And I think understanding how books are used as a crutch or as a sort of a post hoc rationalization is a big deal.

Samantha 36:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think the books provided the bullet points that they needed to come across as educated as opposed to this is a reality I mean, I'm sure you remember where IE was really big on human biodiversity and how people of different races might as well be entirely different species and all this stuff. again, when I'm looking back on it, it's really embarrassing to think about it. Because it's, it's so silly and so nonsensical, but when you are racist and you're trying to find an excuse for it, it's kind of perfect. You know, you're not just staying there and being like, I don't like these people or I don't like those people. It's, well, you know, if you look at culture of critique, you know, Kevin really illustrates these situations and stuff like that, I mean, every time I went to Richard's house, the entirety of his front room was all of Arctos Publishing or Arctos Media's books and people would just take them and read them like after parties and stuff like that. But yeah, none of that introduced you to any of these beliefs. It excused them for you.

Angela 37:03

It does, and ironically, the older writings are not well written. They're very poorly written, and that kind of made me laugh a little when he was like, oh, it's all the books. I was like, even Mein Kampf, like, Mein Kampf is not a great book.

Samantha 37:23

it's not winning awards anytime soon. Transcribed

Alec 37:26

Yeah, I mean, if you read the rise and fall of the Third Reich, the 1200 page tome, but everyone should read it. When it first came out, people like, this is ridiculous. this is just an insane man's ranting. But then as the, as the Nazi party started to get more steam, people would go back and say, Oh my God, it's genius. It's like, well, you already. kind of bought in your, you know, it's not exactly a good review. I had a kind of question for the two of you going off of this and I'll answer it after you is if you were to rewrite the ending of this movie, to be the most prescient and accurate version of how you think it would go down in real life, how would you rewrite it?

Angela 38:08

They would blow themselves up.

Samantha 38:11

I think they would have tried to become informants for the FBI or the CIA or whatever and turn Daniel Radcliffe in and kind of get themselves out of it. I mean, how many people do we know that are informants or were informants or are keeping us or law enforcement in the loop about all the stuff that's going on? I don't know what Jerry would have done though. That's, that's the one thing. I think everybody else would have been willing to go to the cops and be like, This guy's the problem. He has all this stuff that he wants to do, so we'll inform you. that would be my guess. What do you think?

Alec 38:44

I would have said it would have been a random listener of Dallas Wolf in the middle of Ohio, not any of these people, right? I mean, well, I mean, think about it. All of the high profile white supremacist terror that's been committed recently in sort of the alt right era has been random guys radicalized by the internet. The Christchurch shooter was just a dude who browsed 8chan. The, the tree of life shooter He was just a guy who was in a few discord groups, right? He wasn't going to rallies. He wasn't going to book clubs or

Samantha 39:16

He had a parasocial relationship with Lauren

Alec 39:19

Yup. that's a huge part of it is like the people who are doing it are the people who are just parasocial to the alt right. And that's not to say that that means don't worry about any of the organizations. I think that's what makes the alt right more terrifying, which is Again, if you have now a movement that can be distributed across like the internet in a very, very wide net, and you only need 0. 1 percent of people to be crazy enough to pick up an AR 15 and walk into a Walmart, that's still dozens of people. And these aren't people that the FBI, couldn't have infiltrated anyone and found the Christchurch shooter. He was just a guy who, who browsed And I think the movie did a good job choosing Jerry as the guy, but I still think the movie is still a little bit dated and that it just doesn't cover how the internet is such a big influence on how all of this terrorism happens now.

Samantha 40:13

Yeah, I agree with that. I guess we could say that was one of the most incorrect parts was that Dallas Wolf, there wasn't an act of terrorism that was inspired by Dallas Wolf or someone like him, like that would have been the most realistic thing. I think it was smart for them to be like, it's always the guy that you'd never think like, you know, this nerdy engineer, he is absolutely a part of a terrorist cell, but it is much more likely and more often. That it would be the guy listening to the radio show at nighttime because he hates women and can't get a girlfriend or lost his job and feels really dejected. Like there are so many different reasons that people get interested in this and the radio shows, the podcasts are way more accessible than. You know, fugues and nocturnes by 300 year old dead guys. I did like the quote that was it Blackwell from Aryan Alliance where he said, we come in peace, but we're not afraid of war. I felt like that was. exactly how the far right sees itself. we are the civilized people, but if violence needs to happen, we're prepared for it. I thought that was a very interesting way for them to, try and buck responsibility onto any other group that they don't like. Did we have a favorite part of the movie?

Alec 41:29

I think it was the two parts where they talked about the books because That, kind of underscores how this all, works. Like him saying like, yeah, it's first up here. It's like, okay, buddy. That's how everyone thought of themselves. And understanding that for a lot of these guys, it is convincing themselves that it is an intellectual thing and violence is just like, well, it's the last resort after we, I don't know, our, our, our posters of Greek statues don't work, you know? Yeah.

Samantha 42:01

Yeah. I mean, do you, do you remember when you interviewed people? I would always ask them about their, you red pill journey and that was everyone's opportunity to intellectualize how they became a productive racist. And it always had to be either this thing happened that prompted me, or it was Fox News, then Milo, then, then Ben Shapiro, then this, then that. But yeah, I, I agree. Everyone needed to cover it with, with intellectualism as opposed to just not liking people.

Alec 42:32

Certain podcast was so good at what it did is because everyone was there for the, the funny guy. Okay. They told themselves they were there for the facts, the truth. But no, they were there because it was funny and they got to laugh at, holocaust pepes and whatever.

Samantha 42:49

yeah, yeah. It was the spoonful of sugar that they needed to be able to digest the other stuff that they were being told. it was relaxed in a way that. You turn your volume down if your car windows were open, but you wouldn't turn it off. I don't know. I also want to say unrelated to the far right situation. I also thought it was really sweet when Tony Collette and Daniel Radcliffe are like in the car and just kind of talking about their experiences being undercover. I thought that was kind of this humanizing, like when you do something like this, when you are trying to fit in with a group of people, you are compromising yourself. somehow, some way at all times. So I just thought that that was really interesting and, sort of endearing thing. I did not like the end where she was just so flip and just like, yeah, I knew you'd be good. Cause of X, Y, or Z. It's like, dog, he got a swastika tattoo. Like he got half a sleeve for this undercover thing. Like, That's not going away

Angela 43:46

notice at the end, when they were in the diner, he had a bandage, and I was like, well, did he get it removed? Is he just trying to cover it up? Like, what happened?

Samantha 43:57

And I want to say before we get to the hardest part it was weird. I was watching it with And he kept saying, these guys are too good looking. Like, where are the truds? Like, this isn't a super realistic movie. And I was like, no, that's the problem. This is what people in the mood. I mean, they're a little bit taller than most of the guys in the movement, but they look the same. They're put together. They take care of themselves. And I thought that was such a smart distinction that. The average person thinks they're all going to be Aryan Alliance, you know, khakis in a black t shirt and, and, you know, a little bit of a belly and it's like, that is not the case at all. Like that guy, Jerry, who was in the bookstore and even the first leader that he meets who says he's close with Dallas Wolf. Like he wasn't a bad looking guy, but Also, for what it's worth, most of our time in the movement was online. So I didn't meet a lot of the people that presented themselves online. So maybe a lot of it was inaccurate to what they were actually like. But I just thought that was really interesting that a normie was just like, this isn't real. And it's like, actually, it's very accurate. What was our hardest part to watch for me? It was, it was the kids. that just really bummed me out to realize like, I don't know, I wish I could go back and,

Angela 45:08

Hands down, it's stuck in my mind that this is a movement that is about the future and the children. And remember Jerry made that comment about love is time, and he, he spit out some like, You spend this percentage of time with your kids when they're 12 or younger and. Yet at the same time, he has dangerous chemicals in his garage,

Samantha 45:38

he intended to die.

Angela 45:40

all over, his wife is in the kitchen crying. She obviously, like, how do you function normally? it looked like the kids are in a living room or something playing a game and she's in the kitchen, you know, all up in the corner.

Samantha 45:54

but again, I think that was such a great depiction of the mindset that like he's going to be a martyr. He's going to have a statue in the ethno state, you know, like that's what all of these guys thinks they're doing. They are quite literally suicide bombers with blue eyes. That's, that's just exactly what it is. Thanks. But because they're overlooked, it's a lot easier to be like, he died for a cause.

Angela 46:15

I get all that, but the kid thing. Like, so dangerous, such a shitty situation, and the antithesis of I love my family and want them to be safe.

Alec 46:26

so before I get to my hardest part, I, I knew a couple of guys with, kids in the movement. And my suspicion is that they wouldn't actually indoctrinate them that heavily because kids don't have filters. Right. And if a kid. Like, that walks into any school, like their fifth grade, and starts talking about how great Hitler is. Their, their social life is over, and even more than that, they'd probably be unwelcome at school. Which is why I imagine a lot of these guys homeschool their kids. But I, that was something I always wondered, is how much of that do you bring home? And whenever I saw, like, You know, I remember we painted one of the big banners that we, we held once in a home that was on the market because one of our guys was a real estate broker and I've always just wondered for the people who are really, really family men, how much of that did they bring home? And it's scary to think some of them, yeah, they totally do homeschool them and teach them all about how great Hitler was. I think the hardest part for me was the rally where the guy he had became friends with. has to see him marching like that. And

Angela 47:40

Yeah.

Alec 47:42

I managed, I managed to keep my time in the movement secret. from basically everyone I knew well into leaving. And I really do wonder what that would have been like for my sister, my brother, my aunts, my uncles, any of the people close to me who watched me grow up or if if I hadn't given up all of my friends to be part of the far right. any of the people who, really looked up to me, saw me marching in that. it's, it's hard to imagine just what would go through their head then.

Samantha 48:16

I agree. And I think that's why when I would tell people, my personality didn't change. And I also didn't use the rhetoric with them that I did when I was in the servers or anything like that. So I think it was really hard. I think most people I knew thought it was just a really dark bit that I was doing. And then as things came out, it was, It was very difficult for some people to swallow. I'm very lucky that no one stopped being my friend, but there were a lot of people that were just kind of like, I am, shocked. And also, I guess, am I allowed to be surprised? Because I didn't believe it. And it's like, yeah, yeah, you are. Because I can't believe I did it either. But to your point of indoctrinating kids, yeah, I knew a woman who got pregnant while she was in the movement, and she read her, baby, Mein Kampf, every single night, and there was a family, what they would do is they wouldn't use slurs to talk about people of color, but they would do a lot of like, you know, you want to be friends with people that can't go in the sun as much as you, because your pale skin will, will bruise or this, that, like, there were a lot of really manipulative ways that they would say you could be friends with white kids and not kids with melanin. there was always one, if your house was burning and and there were five white people and five black people in there, who would you save? And I was always just like, whoever I can, like, what do you mean? And they were like, well, your race is an extension of your family, so you should always go for that. And they would teach their kids stuff like that. It was never hating anyone else. It was always preferring your own until they got old enough, you know, to spell the N word, basically.

Alec 49:52

Yeah. I think my last thought on the whole rally scene is when his friend sees him in the rally, he doesn't say you know, F you man, He's like, What the, what the F are you doing, man? he doesn't think Oh, my friend's actually a Nazi. Like, I guess that that's one less friend. He's like, no, there's no way that that can't be right. And just to be vulnerable when I got outed again, three years ago, that's how it was with a lot of people, a lot of people who associated with me, when they found out about my past most of them were not like, how dare you lie to us, all of them when they DM to me, they were like, I looked up to you. You were the least problematic person on this platform. you inspired me. I wanted to be like you and I just cannot believe that you were ever once associated with this. And I got so many messages like that of people just being like, I can't put two and two together.

Samantha 50:48

was that devastating or were you proud of the fact that you were so different from who you were or was it even harder because you didn't want them to know like you want to be this different person.

Alec 50:59

That, that was definitely me. during a time when I, still, I, I was about five, six years out of the movement and I still hadn't figured everything out. And my first reaction is I want to tell them like, yeah, if you don't believe it, it's because that isn't me anymore. Like, you know, you shouldn't think of me like that. But I had to take a step back and think for some people, they can't be with someone who has the potential to become that type of person. And, you know, there was a bit of anger of me being like, you know, why would you, you know, you're saying this to me in private, but you won't say it publicly. and I had to stop and think, they'll never be in my perspective. I'll never be in their perspective. I'll never be someone who was never part of the movement meeting someone who was. That's something I think none of us will ever be able to understand.

Samantha 51:49

I know that there are other things though that I used to be pretty judgmental about. You know, if, if someone did something or they were open about something and I'd be like, Oh, I can't believe you tell people about that. Or Oh, that's part of your past. And all of that is out the window. now it's just yes, you've also made a mistake. I'm glad we're all human here. but I totally agree with you. That's, that's a world that I'll never know how to live in because that's just not how it worked for me. All right. I just want to say that I do think the movie was really good. And Alec, thank you for recommending this. I was, I don't want to say pleasantly surprised. The movie itself wasn't what I would call pleasant, but it was, oh, I don't, and also I don't want to say refreshing, but it was real. It was, it was way more accurate than I thought it would be.

Alec 52:34

Yeah, and I'm also glad there's some movies out there that aren't just, like, recounting this person's memoir, you know? even Black Klansman's like that. having one that is pure fiction allows you to tell a broader story about the whole thing, about the whole movement.

Samantha 52:51

yeah, I mean, what is that phrase The truth is stranger than fiction because fiction still has to live in the parameters of something that could be real, whereas, like, whatever happens, happens. And I feel like when you're in a situation like this where the entire movie is fiction because it's so grounded in this composite reality, it made it that much more of a punch in your face of, I could have named someone that I knew that was in that The movement around this time again, I don't want to use the term refreshing, but it was just very like, okay, they've hit the nail on this. So if I ever want anyone to know what it's like to some degree. I could recommend they watch this. But all right, that has been our conversation about Imperium. Thank you Angela and Alec for coming on. I am really grateful that you guys wanted to talk about this and we will talk soon. Bye guys.

Angela 53:42

Bye.