Movie Night- This Is England w/ Clint Terrell

CW: This series deals with dark themes, including, cult-like behavior, racial violence, sexual violence, substance abuse, trauma, early death, loss of at least one parent, etc. Please feel free to skip this if you are not in a good place to hear discussions about these things.

2007's This Is England is discussed.

www.thedailyformer.com

Transcript

0:15

Welcome to movie night, a movie review series from the daily, former in each episode, we're taking movies that have some sort of link to the far, right. Either by depicting the movement by espousing the ideology, or maybe the far edge is like sees movies. And we want to call that out.

Samantha 0:30

This episode we're going to be discussing 2007's This is England. I have a special guest with me. His name is Clint. He is a PhD candidate. I also have Jamie who is also a PhD candidate and I have Angela who has three degrees. I am definitely out educated right now, so welcome everyone. my first question is if anyone has seen this movie previously, what is your relationship to the movie? When did you first see it? Did you have any expectation and like, how did it impact you?

Clint 0:59

I first saw it. I don't think that I had been out of prison very long. I recognized the content of the film and I was like, Oh, It should be good. And the time that I watched it. I absolutely 100 percent had a completely different perspective on it. The 1st time I saw it, as opposed to now. my introduction, like my knowledge of skinhead stuff and like skinhead culture up until that point was mostly just from word of mouth. Like I didn't really grow up around skinheads, I was never in a gang. I was never jumped in or anything like that, but I spent a lot of time around kind of like Mexican Chicano gang culture. By the time I eventually went to prison and I was exposed, what I saw, I think, the skinhead scene in there, what was familiar, aside from the racism, And like the, the actual ideology the culture, kind of the structure, the organization the militancy of it all. Which is very familiar to me, you know, and it was a mostly a lot of younger guys. So there's a kind of a generational kind of gap between people in prison. So a lot of the older guys kind of have a different style. It's just kind of a style that wasn't very appealing to me. Whereas a lot of the young guys, they dress in a certain way in a style. That's somewhat familiar to me. And that was very attractive to me. You know what I mean? There was a little bit of power associated with that scene within the prison context that I really kind of gravitated towards. And I ended up getting a skinhead Selly and he grew up in the skinhead scene. that whole history and told me about the music scene. so all my knowledge about skinhead culture was just what I had heard from this guy. I was infatuated. I have my own stories, my own kind of like little gang stories in a meeting and my own war stories, but it was interesting to me, it was like, he was telling me about a world, kind of sharing an oral history with me that I had not been exposed to in my younger years, And so I got out of prison. I had made connections. I made some connections in prison that kind of transferred to the street a little bit. and I did saw a little bit of what the scene was on the streets. I had heard stories about more movement oriented skinheads and like going to rallies and flying across the country. And I mean?

Samantha 3:02

Yeah.

Clint 3:03

But I never really saw that side of it. What I saw was really just a gang culture, I had gone back to prison on a couple of violations, kind of lost connection, kind of lost touch with that world a little bit. Yeah. And then ended up kind of getting my life together and getting clean and just like, try to be around like normal people, going to work and whatnot. And I think it was at that time that I saw this is England, my thing. And I was like, Oh, so I kind of like had the oral history. You know what I mean? I knew a little bit. About it, you know, and so really what that movie was like the first time I saw it, is it kind of filled in some blanks a little bit for me from some of the stories that I heard, like, oh, this is how

Samantha 3:38

This is the process.

Clint 3:39

the process. Yeah. This is the story that I heard. I mean, I realized There's embellishment on some of the, some of the parts, But it gave me kind of a visual for a lot of stories that I had heard, and I thought that was really interesting to the point that the movie was trying to make is that it was the prison politics, even in England it was like the racist prison politics that spilled out into the movement on the streets and turn it into a racist movement. I'm not sure if that's true, if that was just the movie aspect, but that's what it seemed like. Cause like the one guy that was racist, he had just gotten out of jail. Right? spreading all this propaganda and taking him to the meetings. So it kind of seemed like that was the point that the movie was trying to make that the racist stuff came from the prisons and got into the movement. I never heard that actually, that was not, that was not part of the history that I was told. so I don't know if that's true or not, but it seems like that's what the movie was trying to do a little bit there. That was my takeaway the first time I watched it.

Samantha 4:25

No, that's great. I was actually going to ask, did you know that skinheads were anti racist before they became racist?

Clint 4:32

Yeah, well, I'd heard that from myself. So I say I don't know if I should say the actual crew that he was part of. but he told me that, like, his, little crew was basically like a traditional, like, they weren't really a political crew. And sometime during the late eighties, early nineties it gravitated that way. some of like the, the leaders and the role models and some of the older guys that were in that crew gravitated towards that scene. a lot of the young guys, which he was one of the young guys at that time. Gravitated towards it. And I remember like this was a smart guy too Like he had told me he had been to community college and I think that he had a lot of reservations about the whole racism white supremacist thing because he was really into grunge punk and mdc and the crafts Like he liked a lot of this old anti racist, punk bands, You know, different like anarchist just aesthetically, it seemed like he really liked that kind of grungy gutter punk kind of style, which didn't really fit with the whole white supremacist thing. and he was an older guy too. So I think he was kind of burnt out on a lot of the racial politics, but we were in prison and we were kind of forced to politic. I really believe that he was just really kind of putting on our front because he had been in it so long, but I think in his heart, I don't think that he really was into it that much anymore. But I think he told me a lot of history, but I think from a very much an American and like California kind of, History though, he told me more about how it happened and how it came to the United States and particularly how it happened in California, and how it kind of spreads throughout Southern California and stuff.

Samantha 5:53

that's actually super interesting. I want to bring it to Angela you D radicalized in prison. First I would love to hear about your expectation or what you thought this is England was going to be about. And then if you wanted to touch or contrast anything, like in terms of your experience with with what Clint had said.

Angela 6:13

For sure I'm going to start by saying Holy Shitballs. That movie was nostalgia and all kinds of different things rolled into one big ball of Holy Shitballs. I Didn't really have an expectation of it other than this movie falls in our film series. I haven't seen it. And the warnings that I received before watching it of take some time after you watch it and let it sink in and kind of marinate and Process and you know, let that just kind of go. a lot of the stuff that Clint mentioned, absolutely. When I was becoming involved in the violent far right as a young person, I gravitated to a group that went through the exact process of being The old school trad skins. It was a political. It was a way of life. you know, the way to dress the way to present to the world. And right before I got involved in South Florida. That split had just come about. So all the anti racist individuals went one way, the racist individuals went another way. And then there were other small offshoots. Like there were some that just remained trad skins. There were some that went wild and came up with crazy shit. Like there was whole groups of gay skin heads and different kinds of things. You know, based on different interests and lifestyles, what I found really interesting. Well, I found several things exceedingly interesting. I have multiple post it notes that are like front, back, sideways, full. One was that there's a lot of concepts mentioned. I disengaged in prison. I wouldn't say I de radicalized in prison. That was a really long process of untangling that. But, there were some things that I also noticed that I, Wouldn't have thought twice about when I was involved that watching at this age and as the adult that I am now I was like, oh my god, that's not cool. That's like child sex abuse today

Samantha 8:44

Oh my God. We'll

Angela 8:47

The underlying themes, when we study why people get involved, we know there's not one general answer across the board, but some of the themes are an escape from bullying, looking for protection, looking for identity, looking for belonging Almost all of these underlying themes are built into the plot, but in addition to that, they really showed the dirty side of being a skinhead. it's not, a clean lifestyle. But then it went into much deeper things, like nationalism, the cost of war, looking at socioeconomic status and education level and how that informs lifestyle and the choices people make around lifestyle. It touches on mental health issues. There are things that are very relevant to what we're seeing in today's violent far right. They very specifically said. It's not racist. We're realists And I was like, gotcha. for young men. It seemed like in that political state you know, on the lower end of the socioeconomic status, their choices were limited. One big thing I also noticed is that the trans skin lifestyle was about, you know, being working class, being blue collar, being the ones that go out and go to work and They were talking about their country had been flooded by 3. 5 million Paki's But this group portrayed those motherfuckers were not working They weren't out living a working man's life. They were out being destructive, getting drunk, smoking weed, fighting with each other. But it's balanced out by things like the sense of camaraderie. The sense of being protected and accepted into a group and feeling special when wanted and all these things. There's a lot of stuff that I experienced, even in the U. S. Obviously, I don't share a young man's experience. I have my own gender, experience in it. But there was a lot of overlap of what I saw cutting my teeth in it and coming up as a skinhead that was accurately portrayed. And some stuff. Maybe it was a little sensationalized, but yeah, I'm going to leave it at that and not go into the details. Yet.

Samantha 11:30

Okay. I appreciate your digression. I feel like this movie's still layered that there's a lot to talk about. based on what Clint, Angela had said, we all agreed that a little bit of it was sensationalized, but that it's overall like. inaccurate portrayal of how this stuff happens to people. Do you think the far right likes this movie? Do you think that they would enjoy this portrayal? Or do you think they would say it was accurate? We all know that it was pretty accurate, but is there a way that they be able to deny this? I personally don't think so. I think it's a very clear, there are a couple of things that are sensationalized, but even that, especially when you think about combo and the girl and they talk about having slept together right before he went to prison, like so many men in the movement talk about young brides. So I think it's pretty accurate. At least in terms of like the tone and the general story. Do you guys agree? Disagree? Have thoughts?

Angela 12:22

I thought it was gross.

Clint 12:24

The question is whether you think that, white power skinheads, racist skinheads would like this movie.

Samantha 12:30

Yeah, or if they would agree that it's accurate.

Clint 12:32

I mean, I think that they would have critiques, but I don't think that they would completely like denounce the film. And the reason I say that, because I remember when I was in prison, actually. I remember a lot of the literature that was going around, there was one book in particular that I remember being promoted by them and it was actually a biography, I think by two Jewish, maybe they were lawyers, but it was a true crime novel, basically it was called the silent brotherhood and they would even call it by his German name. Sometime the Bruderschweig or whatever. But it was about David Lane murdering the Jewish talk show host, And all that. But I mean, obviously it was a critique of this movement, But it was a full on, biography of this whole movement, all those guys up in the Northwest that wanted to create that community up there or whatever, you know, and the book was obviously a critique and a denouncement of that movement, but they would still read it and promote it just for the historical accuracy of it, and still encourage each other to read it because it has so much history in it, so I think that they would probably do the same thing with this movie. Like, I think they would probably be favorable to some of the history, even though the overall critique of the movie is, is negative. Right. And they would do that stuff with the Odinism stuff too. They would write these like Odinist organizations. And sometimes these organizations would write them back and say like, Hey, we're not racist. We just practice the satchubal and they would kind of look past all that. They just wanted some of the artwork and the history and and then they would put their own kind of spin on it as they promoted it to other people.

Samantha 13:49

So wild. That's such a great point. Yeah, that they will just like co op whatever they can take. because it's, it's so desperate for some sort of, of, I don't know, relevance. Jamie, what about you? How do you feel?

Jamie 14:00

I think if you grew up in that era during that time period, like myself, I got into the music 2 years after this film. So, it essentially parallels my life as Angela was saying. The split in the movement how people embrace the far right, how people carry that forward. So I think if you're still in the scene and you're still part of that scene, you're going to look at this as an historical aspect of how the scene split. And also how people still continue to deny the 60s ska, even though they still listen to ska, which always blew my mind. 1 minute it'd be Screwdriver, the next minute you'd be listening to Toots and the Maytals, which is played in the film, and people wouldn't even bat an eye. So, I think they would be like, yeah, this is where we came from. This is where we are now. And we're still the true white working class skinheads, not these other people, you know, so there's the denial of history and that. So I think a lot of people still find it fascinating. And probably young kids would still look at it as a great subculture. And this is a great introduction to the subculture and, you know, based their look and their thought process office.

Angela 15:09

Yeah, cause they, they kind of deconstruct the dress code, the different aspects of it and lay it out in step by step. You wear this kind of shoe, this kind of jean, this kind of shirt, you do your hair a certain way. The women, the female skinheads, same thing, like if I would have watched this when I was coming into it, I would have looked at it as a resource of like, oh, look, this is a different way to cut a Chelsea. This is a different way to dress with the same look, but as a woman. So those kind of things I thought were right on, those would appeal, but kind of like Clint said, I don't think all of it would be appealing to the far right currently, but I do think that there are several aspects of it, that whether for the attention aspect Of like, hey, we're being mentioned, we're being talked about, or the beliefs or the way that we went about it, but not all of it, you know, they would definitely have things to say about milk hanging out with the group and about the turn with the politics and how that suddenly showed up in this.

Samantha 16:24

Yeah. Does anyone have anything else that they want to add in terms of that before I get onto the categories?

Clint 16:30

I was going to mention how anti racist skinheads and now sharps I remember one of my friends was going to come on the show. He was a Salvadoran and he's not a sharp anymore. He actually has a critique of the sharp movement. He talks a lot of shit about sharps now, you know, and so he doesn't really consider himself to be a sharp anymore, but he was a sharp for a really long time. well, actually he told me about this movie one time. He was my first roommate when I was going to school in Berkeley. He was my college roommate. and he shared that with me and I remember we started talking about it. He's like, Oh yeah, like there's this really good movie. This is England. you should watch it. And I was like, Oh yeah. I saw that a couple of years ago. And we had a little conversation about it,

Samantha 17:01

that's fascinating. I would love to know what his critique of Sharpe says too.

Clint 17:04

well, just like in recent years, I've actually befriended, a Very small little skinhead crew in la where they're red and anarchist skinheads of what they call themselves they're very much leftist and they also have beef with sharps So his thing like why he gravitated towards the sharp number one. he's salvadoran, right? He's latino He grew up, in east la echo park where there was a lot of latino gangs, particularly mara salvatrucha there was this particular gang that was recruiting his demographic of very hard And he didn't want to be part of that game banging world and he saw the sharp scene As kind of an alternative to that and he grabbed it toward the punk scene To kind of get away from the gang culture, but what he told me Now like the reason he doesn't mess with it anymore now he said, you know We would really do the same thing that the gangbangers did we would just go to punk shows We would look for tough looking white guys and whether they were racist skinheads or not Like if they were just like a tough looking white guy that wasn't part of a crew or wasn't with anybody We would just go start With them and fucking smash him, you know what I mean? we basically would do the same shit, you know? I mean, that's what he told me what happened. And that's also like this other little skinhead scene that I met, and none of them are white. These are all like East La Chicano. Couple of'em are black. You know what I mean? Like, there's not any white ones, which is like weird to me because that's all I ever knew, you know? and they said the same thing. Like, yeah, we don't really fuck with the sharps here in LA because they just wanna go fuck shit up. They want to go to shows and start shit and fight and like, we're not about that. you know what I mean? Having a support group of friends that are into the same thing and the same music and we're not out going around trying to start shit and gangbanging with people, you know? I don't know if that's a just a LA thing because the gang culture is just so thick there or what, you know, but those are kind of the critiques that I've heard of the sharp scene from other anti racist skinheads.

Samantha 18:37

No, that's interesting. I grew up in Jersey and I was not in it, but I knew a lot of people in like the hooligan scene and they were kind of Sharpie skinhead kind of guys. And it is kind of funny now that you think about it. Like, yeah, I guess the anti racist part of sharp means that they will just fuck up anybody like indiscriminately fight

Angela 18:54

They're equal opportunity.

Samantha 18:56

And

Angela 18:56

uppers.

Samantha 18:57

Yeah, and I guess I just never thought, like, they rest their laurels on the fact that they're anti racist, but that doesn't mean that they're actually doing anything good, so that's, a really interesting perspective, thank you

Angela 19:07

I have one more thing before we go on to the categories. If someone wanted, to learn about the early history of skinheads, and how it developed over time, and the underlying themes, I would recommend this movie. It explains a lot. I mean, basically, it's a matter of months, it seems like, in the movie, that Sean is brought in. He engages. I don't know if I would say he's completely radicalized. He's, like, on the fringe of, You know, slipping into that, but then he disengages and like defects within this short little bubble of time. But there are really deep things like earlier when you started touching on combo, telling the girl that he loved her and when they had sex, it was the most beautiful time of his life. She says It wasn't beautiful.

Samantha 20:07

She says it's the worst night of her life,

Angela 20:09

Yes.

Jamie 20:10

he was 32 and it was six years ago. So like, that's that's

Samantha 20:15

that's still a fucking problem,

Jamie 20:16

yeah, that's creepy as shit.

Angela 20:19

really struck me because it's not made up. Like, it made me cringe because, you know, I've experienced similar when I was involved. So those kind of things weigh heavy, but overall, in general, if somebody was like, oh, what was it like? I could now be like, watch this movie and then come back to me with questions.

Samantha 20:41

yeah, I feel like as a kind of exactly as Clint was saying it's a comprehensive history of how all of this happened it touches on it's like the bullet point version you don't need to hear about everyone sleeping on each other's dirty floors and fucking each other's girlfriends but here are the main themes of like how this all split off and became something else so I agree, I saw this When I was a late teenager, I saw it when it came out in 2008. So I was like 17 or 18. Obviously I didn't carry any of the lessons with me because I still fucking became a Nazi for a little bit, but the film really impacted me in a lot of ways. Like it, it is a very good movie in general, even if you're not trying to learn something. So the first category that I wanted to to talk about was the most accurate portrayal of the far right. And I wanted to bring up, kind of on a lighter note situation, I loved, or I thought it was funny when it was that girl's, Smell's birthday, and they like, brought her cigarettes and like, stolen liquor and stuff, like, that's a very, that's a very skinhead y, shitty thing to do, you know, we're just gonna get you things to keep you fucked up and I just thought that that was pretty accurate,

Jamie 21:50

Yeah, I like to like with Combo telling his stories, I mean, there's always that one guy who likes to be the hero, the big man that always wants to control the room, control the narrative, you know, talk about himself. Talk himself up. I mean there, there's countless guys like that. At every party, at every meeting, there's always a dude that wants to, pat himself in the back. So I thought that, that that was absolutely brilliant.'cause there's always that guy.

Samantha 22:14

Do you have anything you want to say or?

Clint 22:17

About the portrayal of the.

Samantha 22:19

All right. was there anything in there? where you were kind of like, wow, that's a spot on representation.

Clint 22:24

Yeah, Like I had heard of people, like I remember there being certain skinheads who like really prided themselves and being more political, you know what I mean? they would try to really make it. like I'm not a criminal, I'm not a drug addict. I'm not a gangbanger. Like I was in the movement. I was flying out to the Midwest and meeting with these people. You know what I mean? Like. they would kind of like tell these stories in a way that would set them kind of above these other ones, because I'll be perfectly honest, the skinhead scene that we were gangbangers, these were gangbangers, you know what I mean? So, I, do remember every once in a while, hearing somebody talk about that in kind of a way to where it was like the movement stuff was kind of this, Far off kind of like mythical thing to me at least, you know what I mean? It was like lore that there was actually this more political movement out there. like a kind of a promised land kind of area you know, I mean

Samantha 23:12

gosh, I really wish Brad was in this conversation to Brad he's a former that has some time in incarceration and he's studying criminology and I would love for you to to talk okay, on the flip side then, what is the most sensationalized portrayal of the far right? in that movie. I had a hard time with this one because I, unfortunately Clint, I was in that lore, we are political movement area of it. I was in that organization where we were like, we're law abiding, we're non violent. We were just Pretentious and we thought that we were going to like change policy, but like we were all doing the same thing just in nicer clothes. That was that was really the only difference is that we would use political language, but we were saying the exact same things as everyone else. The difference was putting lipstick on a pig, I guess you could say.

Clint 24:02

it seems like, there was more of that, in other states, particularly, the further you go, towards the East Coast, states like, Pennsylvania and up in the middle of Michigan, that kind of area, not in California because whenever people were talking about, they were always like, yeah, I flew out there. they always had to leave and go somewhere else to be part of that, you know? And just that alone was kind of like a status thing, because we were all just hopeless fuck ups, if there was somebody who was responsible enough to get a plane ticket and get themselves to an airport, like, Catch a flight and go to a different part of the, like, that was a big fucking deal. that was a social status just in itself. Like, wow, this guy got on a plane and flew somewhere and talked to some people. Like, holy shit.

Samantha 24:39

That's strangely endearing

Clint 24:41

Both of us like never got made out of like a 10 mile radius when we weren't in prison,

Angela 24:45

I would be like, I'm flying out to Detroit for this big skinhead show And then I would come back and be like, I met all these new people from all these new groups that you've never even heard of.

Samantha 24:57

yeah. I am very embarrassed to say that I was very similar. But I you know, I wonder if that's like a, I mean, I would guess that it's just the experience in prison Like, never, I've had a speeding ticket, but I've never been to prison or jail or anything. I don't think I would do very well in there, so I really try to stay out. But I think a lot of that is because the movement looks for people that look like me and are chipper and are this and are that. It can kind of put on a friendly face and make it seem as if like, oh, it's human and you guys are just misunderstanding what we mean. But like, the reality is everyone is exactly. The gangbangers and the gang people and this weird network they talk about family orientation, but that's why everyone's fucking each other's girlfriends. That's why they're all giving each other coke right before they get up to do public speeches. that's why everyone is fucked up by like 7pm every fucking night. Like truly there really isn't as much of a difference. It quite literally is it's just a plane ticket, you know? But to the next category, what was the most sensationalized portrayal? Like, what was the most inaccurate part of the movie, in your opinion? I kind of had trouble with this because this is an earlier iteration of the far right. This would be for any of y'all.

Jamie 26:04

No, the age gap was normal. The weird parties was normal. I mean, we all saw that stuff. The only thing I didn't think was very accurate was when Kam called out Woody for not defending Milky. I thought that was a bit weird. I can't see that happening. So, you know, and then he rolls into his, this is England speech, which was 100 percent accurate. hence the title of the movie. So, the apology thing was a little sensationalized, a little stretching it a bit, but then as it rolled into the speech, I was like, okay, you know, this is bang on. I've heard this speech. it was a fine line, but yeah, in general, it was good.

Clint 26:45

for me, I think the most sensationalized part the most embellished part was his exit. when he takes the flag and walks to the beach and like throws it in the water. I thought it was a little kind of dramatic. I mean, I get it for cinematic effect and all that, but I thought that was a little dramatic, but I did appreciate the scene and I like that. That actually now that was the thread of the movie that I was more interested in is when he's sitting there on his bed with his mom and he pulls up the picture of his dad, my favorite picture of my dad. And it was like really this meditation on the difference between patriotism and nationalism, right? he's still looking at this picture of his father. in this uniform, you know what I mean? This military man, this man that fought for his country, still proud of him, still seeing himself in his father, still proud of his father for that act of service that he did. And then of course, looking at the picture of his dad when they're at the beach and he's got his shirt off and it's just the family picture. I really liked this picture now too, you know? and really I think, I don't think that it was super explicit in there, but I think that that was a thread that was really trying to distinguish between This idea of patriotism as opposed to like, you know, nationalist kind of ethnic project.

Samantha 27:46

that is, I did not think about that. yeah, I didn't even think about that. And that's so, damn it.

Clint 27:55

maybe I was looking for that, you know, but

Jamie 27:56

Thank you for that.

Samantha 27:58

The next category is what would you say is the overall message of this movie? the message is the destruction of nationalist ideology and different ways that insecurity and loss and vulnerability can put you in a position that like, I don't think Sean intended on becoming someone like that. I don't think Sean planned on robbing a convenience store with his pals so that he could go make out with this girl that is suspiciously older than him. You know, there were a lot of messages in the movie, but was there anything that you guys took out of it that might not have been as obvious as like, nationalism is bad.

Clint 28:33

just to kind of drive that point home a little bit more, like another area that I saw that kind of popped up was Jamie, right? that I was talking about and in the, this is England speech and in that scene where he does a speech and he's asking me, you know, you didn't stick up to this guy, how can you stick up for milky or whatever? And he asked him that question and he says, how do you identify? Are you Jamaican or are you English?

Samantha 28:51

yeah.

Clint 28:52

And he says, I'm English and they all start clapping like, okay, you know what I mean? and then he's able to move on with the speech, right? And talk about England. So there is that moment where it almost seems to like gesture towards this, nationalist ideology that is maybe it's not an ethnic project that it is just this kind of nationalist just the. Like a civic kind of nationalism or maybe even like a cultural nationalism or something like that where it's almost like you don't have to be white to be part of this radicalized, nationalist nativist, I mean, obviously it was kind of, anti immigrant and, you know, mean foreigner, the Pakistani, but like, there was this kind of suggesting that a Jamaican could be part of that project almost, right? And then, you know, of course it he digresses and goes on like, oh, you know, what makes bad fathers, And so you see what it is. And I still think that was a good point. Cause I think that you see that, especially with the right today, And the kind of these far right moves that try to hide behind that national discourse. I try to mask racism. we're not racist. We're not this we're Patriots. We're patriots, We're just America first and this type of thing, and they try to hide behind that kind of ideology with this idea that anybody can be part of this project as long as they agree on a couple foundational principles, right? And I think that by the end of that movie, it really revealed how this particular brand of Nashville, was really a cover for these more kind of ethnic, you mean this kind of this ethnic and that's what it is. It's not it's not a cultural nationalism. Ethnic nationalist. It's an ethno nationalist ideology politic and political project.

Samantha 30:22

yeah, absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head the point where, like, he talks about the refugees coming in basically saying, like, they're not assimilating enough. And then he gives Milky the opportunity to say, how do you identify? Are you going to assimilate? Milky says the right thing, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what he says because he's black. And that is, that is Milky's sin. He had a good father. He had a good life. He did everything right. He's just there to hang out and like listen to good music and eat good food. And. he still was almost killed. it reminds me a lot of the Proud Boys where they kind of do this oh, we're just Western chauvinists. Like we have a Latino man as our leader. And it's like, you guys only have that as a facade, he would not last there if you guys actually got your way.

Angela 31:06

So, you know, what I found interesting about that is they really entangle combos, mental health, the rejection by the girl and his realization. And this is air quotes that milk actually 1 of the foreigners when milk is sitting there describing his family life, like, you know, having a lot of cousins, combo zeros right in on. So your uncle, he has all these different kids with all these different women. Does he financially support them? Does he do this? And that's where he starts really revving himself up for the violence That broad realization of well, it doesn't matter. You said you're English and not Jamaican because I think he even called it like your, your uncle or you or your family is just like the quote, unquote, his

Samantha 32:01

Yeah. And maybe I'm just extrapolating now because we're on like a nationalist viewpoint but I'm sure he also didn't love that he had multiple cousins or family members that were not white, you know, and you know something about white birth rates and people taking jobs and I don't know I know that that's kind of a leap, but I think, if you gave him five more minutes before he beat the shit out of Milky I think he would have absolutely brought up like being outbred by the wrong people. Jamie, did you have something to say?

Jamie 32:28

no, definitely. I mean, if you had to continue to would have been about birthrights and immigration taking over you know, the Thatcher era working class getting pushed aside.

Samantha 32:37

I found it so interesting that he basically was like echoing the plight of the proletariat, but none of these guys have fucking jobs. and I think a lot of it is because some of them aren't necessarily employable, but I don't know. it was just very interesting, the only person that they showed going to their job was the girl. Which I thought was also kind of an interesting reality that was close to the far right I experienced do we think Woody, the main skinhead guy, the anti racist skinhead guy, do we think he would have left at some point? Or like, he just seemed so wholesome hearted that I feel like he, he truly believed in what he was doing.

Angela 33:10

his girlfriend. I think she was about that. the end of her rope with it. You could see her annoyance throughout.

Samantha 33:18

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and she would absolutely be date raped again. 100%. Like that's just

Jamie 33:24

I can't really say because I've seen the full series. I know who left, I know what happened to the characters, so I can't really, comment on who's still there and who's not, But I would recommend watching the full series.

Samantha 33:38

I totally intend to. I had no idea that there was a TV series, but I'm very excited to watch

Jamie 33:43

I think it's, what, 86, 88, 90, and then I think there's another offshoot? Yeah, there's quite a lot of them.

Samantha 33:51

That's exciting. Next category, what was the most prescient? Did the film kind of predict anything that is relevant now or any tactics or anything that the far right does now I found it interesting that none of them talked about cleaning up how they looked, because everything that I know from everyone who talked about being in the movement, everyone had always talked about wanting to clean up their look and do this and that, but in that film they never mentioned it. They never mentioned we need to get our act together and look better and look presentable. They very much were proud of the grime, so I can't really think of anything in this movie that was prescient other than what Angela said, which is where Convo said, I'm not a racist, I'm a realist. if I had a nickel for every time some nationalist told me that he was a race realist or he wasn't a racist, I could buy a Rolls Royce. what about y'all? Any tactics or anything that was in the film that is used now?

Clint 34:41

I actually kind of had a question about that. I had like a suspicion that that portrayal of that scene where they go to that meeting in the house and they have the guys in the suits, up there, talking to them. Like, I was kind of wondering about that. Like cause I kinda, I think it, maybe I've had heard stories that's kind of how it was, but I was wondering if it's still like that or If it's changed at all.

Angela 35:02

I think that they took actual events and kind of did their own thing with them.

Clint 35:08

Yeah.

Angela 35:09

Jamie, which group was it that did that? and Honor?

Jamie 35:13

Blood and Honor did that. The BNP did that. National Front did that.

Angela 35:16

The BNP.

Jamie 35:17

went to one of their rallies and it was massive and it was exactly like that. You know, skinheads in the, in the audience and then the guys suits on the stage. like, that was normal. they'd roll in in their expensive cars and their nice suits and stand on stage and preach and then, you know, all the working class skinheads. would be in the audience listening to that. So, no, that, that scene was. 100 percent accurate

Samantha 35:41

Yeah, you're right. I totally forgot about that scene

Jamie 35:43

and from a Canadian context, I've seen that and an English context. I've seen that. I haven't been to anything in the States like that, but I've seen it in Canada like that. And of course, in Olympics.

Clint 35:54

that scene stood out to me. And then at that point that you just made right there too, because I remember there was a time when I got kind of hooked up with the crew on the streets. And to be perfectly honest, we were kind of more of like a small time organized crime. You know what I mean? we were like interested, we're making money. that was the reason I wanted to hang out with them. Cause I was interested in the moneymaking aspect of it and the illegal illicit activities that they were involved in. But I remember specifically one time. one time when I was with them, we were supposed to be going and doing something and we had to make a detour somewhere and we were going to like some restaurant and I don't know why there was somebody that we're with that knew somebody that was going to be at this restaurant. And I remember them telling me, like, I couldn't wear what I was wearing. Like, you gotta wear pants. you gotta like change your uniform. And I don't think I was like dressed in like any kind of a traditional way. I was wearing like a tank top with like all my tattoos showing and like some Dickie shorts and some Chuck Taylors or something like that. it was summertime, you know what I mean? that was like my, my uniform really, you know, and they're like, Hey, you got to put a t shirt on and like, put some pants on. Before we go to this spot and I didn't even really meet the people that was there. like we got there and we went inside and he kind of went off and talk to somebody and I don't even know what happened. And then we went and did whatever we did. Right. But I just remember being told that the way that I was dressed was not appropriate, particularly to all my tattoos were showing. I had to look more presentable, you know,

Samantha 37:13

I think I was in the iteration that kind of came to a head you know, the Richard Spencers, the beige suits and all of that stuff. But I think all the iterations previously were working towards that. And in real life, we're always talking about it. So I did just think it was interesting that that was never mentioned in the movie. I just thought that was weird. Anyone have a favorite part? I'm going to go first because I really love the beginning where they make fun of his trousers and he's just like, Mom, my fucking trousers. And he just is so mad. But that was my favorite part of the movie.

Angela 37:43

I don't know if I had a favorite part.

Samantha 37:46

Did anyone have any parts that they thought were like, definitely like, every time you watch the movie, you're kind of like, wow, I could rewatch this scene a million times. Like, I think the guy that plays Combo, the guy from Prison, I've seen him in so many other roles. He's such a good actor. But I saw him in This is England first. So every time I see him, I think he's going to be that guy. he takes on that role so seriously that I can't help but think that's who he is in real life, which is probably really insulting to him, but I mean, it's a testament to his acting.

Jamie 38:16

There is YouTube footage of him, basically they're in a classroom and they're testing his behavior and they're like okay get mad and he absolutely loses his shit in the classroom and he's throwing chairs around and getting mad and you can clearly see the terror and the other two actors oh my god what the fuck is happening and it's him just acting

Samantha 38:35

yeah,

Jamie 38:35

Stephen Graham, he's, he's phenomenal, phenomenal. But I can't find the footage.

Clint 38:40

I've seen him in a couple other things. I can't really remember what, but I always associate him with this role too, I think that my favorite part, I that I could actually watch over and over again is that this is England scene where he gives that speech. that was like, I guess it was just so believable. And to be perfectly honest, it is. I see that now, but for me, it was just like, really a portrayal of like the power of rhetoric, you know what I mean? Like the using language, the passion of it, the heart, the head, like pointing towards the heart, like this is England, this is England, the land, there's connection between like the head, the heart, the land, that whole speech right there. I think that was the apex of the film right there.

Jamie 39:13

it was

Samantha 39:14

I was going to ask Clint and Jamie, between the first time you saw it and now, what has shifted in your perspective in the film? You know, do you look at it differently? Do you empathize with it differently?

Jamie 39:26

I guess now being older. I noticed a lot more grooming. Using the ideology to groom people, you know, manipulating, the kids, you know, that his father died. So just a lot of the overall grooming, I never picked up on that before. I watched it again today and I was like, wow, this is something I completely missed. And looking back. There was a lot of that, there was always the older guys that would manipulate the young kids. There was always the older guys that would manipulate the young women for different reasons, obviously. So, I picked up on that a lot more now, and I think that it's an interesting dynamic to look at it from a grooming perspective.

Clint 40:02

Yeah, the first time I saw it, it kind of gave me some visuals for some of the stories that I had heard. And then like this time I was just like really in tune to the way in which it was depicting the differences between nationalism and patriotism, and to be honest, I'm thinking more about that and I'm not really sure. What the movie's thesis about patriotism was you mean like the thesis about nationalism was very obvious But i'm not really sure I mean you had the scenes like margaret thatcher and reagan and that kind of neoliberal alliance and whatnot But then there was like the commentary in the history of the Falklands, which I wasn't even familiar with that where I had to go and look that up. And I do a little bit of research on that because I wasn't even really aware of that war the territorial dispute with Argentina so that part was kind of interesting because it seemed to be attempting to rehabilitate this idea of patriotism a little bit, but the overall takeaway of that aspect of the film was not particularly clear.

Samantha 40:52

actually, I agree with that. what made this child so vulnerable is that his father died in the war and Convo said like, don't let your father die for nothing, I think it kind of had you take what you want from it in terms of what patriotism means, like his father did die for his country but you know, when you're 12, that doesn't fucking matter to you, your dad's dead.

Clint 41:12

And then at the end, it was almost seemed like this is not what my dad would have wanted for me. This is not what my dad fought for. Right? Like, he's looking at the pictures of his father and then the very next scene is him going and throwing the flag in the water, you know, so,

Samantha 41:23

that's a really good point.

Angela 41:24

I would watch it again with a cocktail maybe and something to, to not get stressed. It does put me back into some old memories that I don't need to be back in. when you all were talking about your favorite parts, I think one of my favorite parts now that I'm really thinking about it was when Sean connected with the group initially, and he was smiling. He was having fun. He was part of the group. He was accepted. And I remember those feelings. It really evoked that feeling of belonging somewhere and having some sense of purpose being cared about by other humans. So that was kind of a touching part.

Jamie 42:11

Yeah, there's a huge mental health aspect to that scene.

Angela 42:14

Yeah.

Jamie 42:15

I agree with you there. It is a very touching scene. You know, you got this emotionally distraught kid and then, getting this new identity and new circle of friends to make himself feel better, right? We've all done that.

Samantha 42:29

The film moves me to tears every time I see it. I get so emotional about Sean, it just, rips me apart whenever I see it. and also, the idea that this nationalism stuff is this whole men are strong and women are support and this and that, and it's like, it weakens men. it harms everyone when you have that kind of exclusion. I just love this movie. Well, thank you all for talking. I really loved hearing all these perspectives, especially Clint's take on nationalism versus patriotism. that really kind of just blew my mind. The next movie we are reviewing is Romper Stomper and we will see you then. Thanks guys.

Jamie 43:09

Thanks, everyone.