Movie Night- Mississippi Burning

1988's Mississippi Burning is discussed. 


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Transcript

Pat 0:15

welcome to movie night, a film discussion from the Daily Former. As you can probably guess, I am not Sam. Sam is extremely busy right now being cool and fun and flirty. And so she's asked me to host this discussion. I'm Pat Rickards. And with me today, we have Lauren and Brad and we are going to be discussing the film Mississippi Burning. For those that are unaware, this is a movie that came out in 1988 based on a true story where you have after three civil rights workers who are in Mississippi to help African Americans register to vote disappear. The FBI went down to try to find the three individuals, two of whom were white, one of whom was black and as you can imagine, the community in Mississippi did not take too kindly to having Yankee FBI agents in their town investigating civil rights issues and so things went from bad to worse very quickly this movie sort of chronicles the FBI's search for the three missing individuals as well as really tearing the lid off of the violence, the extremism and the general sense of hate that was going on in Mississippi at the time where this was set in 1964. So this is going to be a little more casual discussion than sometimes Movie Night is. But we're still going to look to answer some of the key questions that we always look to address. And so let's go ahead and get started. Brad, Lauren, you ready? Yeah. So actually I'm

Lauren 1:44

curious when both of you finished watching the movie, like what was your initial takeaway from it? initial thought rather?

Brad 1:51

I've seen the movie several times for different purposes. I've watched it because I wanted to and I was interested. But I've also watched it for study during when I was studying. It's probably, I think, one of the most well done movies on this subject line, I think. I don't know if any of you have seen the trailer for it that exists on YouTube right now, but it resonated with me in such a way that, Many of the extremist groups now there's this ongoing call for, race war us versus them stuff, which was very present all throughout the movie. that America's at war with itself, that premise. And as you alluded to in the opener there, Pat, about, these folks being. uneasy with Yankee FBI agents coming in and poking around, because, as we know, extremism exists in the structure and the institutions in the United States. So, that gets very awkward. I think this movie does this very well chronicling how hard it is to call out extremism, particularly when the people doing it. Look just like you.

Pat 3:03

for me, I think it's an incredibly poignant movie. obviously it's not a documentary. So while it's based on true facts, they take a fair amount of liberties. I think that what strikes me is how much they try to cram in while trying to highlight all of the central issues. And I realize, in some instances they're sort of oversimplifying what was happening at the time. But I do think, they really did a great job. At keying in on what the general sentiments were in a place like Mississippi in the mid 1960s. and even where they would keep breaking away, having the TV crews that were interviewing the, they were studying the investigation, interviewing locals. And what strikes you is how easy the vitriol and the hate and even the calls for violence just roll off of other people's mouths without being, you know, I think none of them would probably deem themselves extremists, It doesn't matter if they were rich or poor. It just mattered that they were white.

Brad 4:06

Yeah, and I like you, I thought, it resonated with me when you said they took some liberties as well, but I think within those liberties it was done very well in the sense of trying to help the lay person understand what was going on or the person who's disconnected from civil rights issues, generally speaking. it wasn't a documentary, but it's still called in those real pieces pretty well, if that makes sense.

Pat 4:31

It does. I think one of the challenges, I mean, obviously if you watch the movie and you believe it is just the truth documenting exactly what happened. I don't think any of us believe that the black community in Mississippi in the 1960s had nothing to do with calling out racism. And obviously they leave that part out. It's really not focused on that, even though, we know from history that they were incredibly involved. the churches that we kept seeing in the movie getting burned down. You know, those congregants were central to the civil rights movement. They weren't just sort of stepping aside like we saw in the movie, but I think particularly on the violence side, the average American who may or may not know specifically about some of these activities. obviously realizes that the civil rights movement was messy and dark and violent. you're confronted with a hell of a lot when you start off seeing a church getting burned down and, you then spend the next two hours watching lynchings, watching more church burnings, watching cross burnings. Watching people picked up off the street and beaten near to death you know, all of that, it makes it a whole lot realer than just reading it in a textbook that you might have read in high school.

Lauren 5:43

Yeah, that's true because like up in Canada, we are taught a little bit about American history particularly around the civil rights and racism aspects. my thing is that I can see after watching this movie, cause this was my first time watching it, that my teachers had really sugarcoated what was going on at the time, more than likely it's because they were concerned about how it might impact us. I also feel like many of us just didn't have a full understanding of it or how it could apply to what's going on today, even.

Pat 6:12

Yeah, I think you're right, Lauren. first of all, I would say you probably learned as much in Canada as the average high school in the United States learns about the time period as well. I'm somebody I live in the deep South. I live in South Carolina. what struck me and I've seen this movie a number of times what struck me watching it through the life after hate lens this week was recognizing, you know, here we are looking at what hatred and fear and such did in Mississippi in the 1960s. And it's not just limited to Mississippi. It was true across the South at the time. But I don't know if either of y'all have ever seen the movie A Time to Kill, which was, the first John Grisham book turned into a movie. Which is set in, the late 1980s in another town in Mississippi. And what struck me this go around is realizing that, all of that bigotry and all of that hate and all of that blame at least through John Grisham's eyes in a time to kill. didn't go away in 30, 35 years. It was still alive and well, and the same issues, the same approaches were still happening in the same state.

Brad 7:22

I think this one and to kill a mockingbird were the most resonant ones that I think I've seen. is this something that, probably was happening in the South for decades, right? that culture of like, let's hide our failings too. Because I imagine there's a lot of people down there that Were ashamed of what was going on, but also didn't want to say or get involved, right? Which it was very dangerous to get involved So how do you just maintain? You know life when knowing that all this stuff's going on. That's brutal people are being murdered all the time by these groups kkk and other extremist groups like Yeah, I think it did a bit of that.

Pat 8:06

think you're right on. It's, I mean, when you're describing, there's that one scene between the FBI agent and the deputy's wife, and they're talking about getting out of small towns in Mississippi. And it's exactly what you're talking about is, you know, she's never going to leave. And she was raised in that town. She was born in that town. She grew up in that town. She was never going to leave that town. no matter her. How bad things got. And I think we have this tendency in the United States that when bad things are happening, we somehow think that they're not attached to us. So, if there's a major problem like you're seeing here, we will justify it that, oh, yeah, it's not an issue because, this is where I grew up or this is where I went to school or I go to church with these guys, they can't be as bad as we think. And you definitely saw that throughout the movie, including individuals who should have known better, who could have done something about it. And while they didn't get their hands dirty per se. They certainly were involved, but, I think when you're talking about the era and the time, you have to remember, the Confederacy lasted in the United States, I believe, about 6 years. You know, you both have been around the world. I can't imagine there are too many countries that put statues up to honor traitors and to honor those who have tried to tear apart their country. We do and you still see in states like Mississippi where they still have those statues up. And I think that Blind eye to it, or you don't necessarily see it as being the problem that others do.

Brad 9:37

Yeah, I just can't imagine what. You know, people were enduring back in those times, right? I mean, even in the Canadian context, there was all sorts of historical. Issues with black communities particularly Vancouver had an area that was completely. wiped out and rebuilt over like it was At one point a bustling, you know, black community and then it just got replaced by viaducts. I think because there is so much culture ingrained in the South those people aren't just going to Accept and leave that was their livelihood. That was their passion. these other groups and these other interceptors wanted to take that away from these communities, right? And I think that's, I think this movie did talk about that too.

Pat 10:22

I'm curious. I mean, as you know, I was never a part of the movement. But when I worked on Capitol Hill, I did work for a senior U. S. Senator who at one point in his life was an exalted Cyclops of the Klan. And I recognize, you know, that neither of you were part of the Klan. But I am curious, I mean, how did you react to how they were depicting the KKK and its role in the community and how they interacted and how they acted and those sorts of stuff?

Brad 10:52

So forgive me here this might be offensive, I don't know, but anyone who's like the KKK or whatever that says they are delivering Christ's message and then excludes all the groups that they talk about has no understanding of what Christ, who He was. That it was never about race, I think it was the fear of the other, a lot of it, and I always abhorred the Klan, even when I was involved in stuff, because I just thought they were, misguided cult kind of, obviously they were violent and they were doing, continuously awful shit to communities which even during the time that I was involved, like, I know Lauren, if it was the same for you, but like, I didn't have any time for clan stuff. It just, the robes, the names, but also I knew they were well embedded into our Institutions and you know, particularly in the South in the United States they had a lot of influence where they were at politically culturally, all that kind of stuff. So I'd be interested to hear how you felt about it, Lauren.

Lauren 12:02

Actually, so I do agree with you there, Brad. For me, I always kind of looked at the clan very similarly when I was there, even though, of course, when I'm looking at it in retrospect nowadays, I'm like, we sounded the exact same as them. Like, they're still the same underlying themes, more or less the same objectives. But actually, I had dated someone at the time when I was there, whose father was involved in the Klan, and I remember with him being raised in the Klan and everything or so he claims he had told me that, like, of the many fights that we had got into at the time, that his father would despise me if he ever met me, because apparently, like, we aren't as serious as them, we weren't getting as much done as them, so I think that, you know, Feeling of disgust between skinheads and clan was pretty mutual.

Pat 12:48

Yeah, I'm curious. I want to follow up, Brad. You had said something that struck me hard when I watched the movie where you were talking about the way that the clansmen are positioning themselves and sort of in the name of Christ, I mean, obviously incredible symbolism where you start off the movie, burning down a church. And continuing the practice of burning down churches throughout the movie, obviously the rise of christian nationalism today. How does one? justify Let's just say unchrist like activities in the name of jesus.

Brad 13:22

Oh, that's a that's a zinger. That's a tough one. I'd say some of the groups they substantiate their arguments by saying they're like anti Christian, right? But when we're looking at the wider, I think what you're might be referring to now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but is the wider violent far right movement specific to the United States where Christ seems to be a topic that they talk about, right? There's a lot of their talking heads right now in the far right who claim to be. followers of Christ, but in the same conversation, then they say, well, trans people aren't worth as much as white Christian men. So would that be something that, with my understanding of Christianity and, the things that Jesus did would that be something that he would agree with? I don't think valuing others less than you was one of his deals. if he was around today, he'd want us not to be killing each other, all that kind of stuff. So promoting us versus them violence, I don't think is, you know, I just, I don't know. I just can't see the direction that they take. So they start out with this and they say, well, we're all followers. We're very devout Christians. And then all of a sudden they're celebrating when churches are burned down or when things happen in places of worship that to me, it's just, The opposite, like, yeah,

Lauren 14:51

for me, I'm not really convinced that these people do have faith in the first place because if they actually understood it for what it's supposed to be, you're supposed to put God before everything else. So before your prejudice, before fear of the other, before racism, before anything.

Pat 15:06

Yeah, I love, you know, there's, the one scene where they're rattling off all of the people that they obviously hate, where, they start off with the Jews and make their way through and manage to tag the Catholics and others along the way. And again, doing so in the name of their faiths, is that typical? You know, is it that easy for all of the different flavors of hate to just roll off in one quick monologue?

Lauren 15:28

Yeah, I think in simple terms there's always a way for people to justify what they do, regardless of what that is, unfortunately.

Pat 15:36

You know, I'm curious. One of the scenes that hit me, which, again, I think it goes to American culture, where you see, you know, even though Gene Hackman's character was from Mississippi, he's still an outsider in that town in Mississippi. But there's a scene where he's describing his father. The farmer got a mule you know, and ultimately he believes his father poisoned the mule so that his friend didn't have more than he did. And, you know, it's because. Gene Hackman's character is essentially seen as an ignorant redneck despite being an FBI agent. You know, he's asked what did he take away from all of that? And he very sort of clearly distilled that his father couldn't stand for somebody being better off than he was. Has any of that changed?

Lauren 16:25

As far as I've seen, no, I feel like a lot of people do still have that same mentality.

Pat 16:29

Is it taught? Is it something that one gets while they're raised? And I realize it's different for every person, but is that something that predominantly is taught? Or is that something that either you come to on your own or you're given to as you're looking to join up with those who at least think the way you do or have experienced the things you do?

Lauren 16:48

Well, in terms of not being able to stand someone doing better than you I would say it is something we're socialized with because I even remember back to elementary school like it almost felt like a competition So I feel like humans, yes, we are socialized to compete. And that isn't the root cause of all this, but it also doesn't help.

Pat 17:07

And clearly we haven't learned much from it in decades and decades, I'm guessing it's an inherent piece that we will probably never shed.

Lauren 17:14

No, probably not, because I feel like this one does tie back to ego and it's very difficult to get someone away from thinking with their ego and into thinking with some sense of empathy.

Pat 17:25

So with the ego, Lauren, I'm curious, one of the things that struck me, Is there clearly was a hierarchy within the clan, you know, you had the head of the clan. You even had the sheriff who they were very hands off. And then, even within those who are active, those who caused the issue in the 1st place, you know, you had this belief that the deputy was higher up than, say the dude who is working in the shoe store. Is that accurate? Yeah, I would say so.

Brad 17:58

I'd say so too, yeah.

Pat 18:00

And is it, I mean, does one, if I use the wrong terminology, please just smack me upside the head. Does one rise in the ranks because of the things that they've done on behalf of a cause? or are they, where they are simply because of, say, their social standing within the community at large? Because it seemed like it could have gone both ways in the movie.

Lauren 18:23

And I think it can go both ways in real life too, from what I remember of my time there. I remember one of the guys Finally got his patch and it was like the biggest accomplishment of his life. But all he had to do was beat up some guy at a bar one time to impress the rest of the group. So it kind of shows you that it really doesn't take a whole lot of effort to kind of rise to where you want to be. And it doesn't take a lot of time either.

Pat 18:48

Do they, I mean, does one, because again, I mean, so much of it seems like You take away from the movie that they were either sort of born into it, or once they got to where they were just given their standing. You didn't get a sense that there's a lot of thinking to it. I think there is, I think obviously if you're going to be the head of the clan there's obviously thinking that goes on there, but you know, for those that are part of the rank and file, do they plot? You know, is it that, you know, someday I want to hold the position that the deputy sheriff has. Or is it just what's going to happen happens and I'm going to fight the good fight.

Lauren 19:23

Depends who you're talking to. I mean, for me, there was definitely competition there with other people in the group. Like, I wanted what they had at the time, especially when I had first got into it. And I remember I got told several times that my teenage ego needed some taming down and that was actually pretty funny to hear out of a bunch of hate mongers, like just putting that out there. But yeah, I mean, I feel like we're always going to want what someone else has, whether that's positive or negative things. Like, as far as the links that I would go to get it, I'm not proud of them,

Pat 19:57

So when we look at a movie like Mississippi burning, how is a film like this? How is this viewed by the VF already? How does the far right? First of all, would they even watch this movie? And if they did, what would their reaction be?

Lauren 20:15

I feel like it would be hard to get a lot of those folks to watch it in the first place because even all these years later, like I've been out of the movement for like nine years now and some of it was a nice smack in the face to me. Like nowadays knowing about these issues, but back then denying them, it's very hard to say how it would have gone, but I can guarantee I probably would have shut the movie off at least like halfway through.

Pat 20:39

I mean, would there be any of that, let's call it truth telling, where you'd have individuals that would say that this isn't what happened, this isn't the truth of what happened in Mississippi. There's a lot of that happened as well.

Lauren 20:51

Oh, absolutely. So denying the issues at hand because I don't want to admit that I'm attempting to continue them.

Brad 21:00

I think there are some that might use it as even a way to propagate their different narratives. And push their different narratives and say, look, this is like deeply seated in, like you're saying their pad about like, oh, liberals push this agenda, that kind of thing, you know, and it's, and then they could use it as historically saying, look, that's been going on for decades. See, they're trying to make us believe something different. Right. And it know, and then you could, you know, winded into today's depictions of white extremism of you know, anything from American history X to you know, things that were, I think there was a recent movie called a civil war that came out. How is it, how are those things different now? I think not really. I mean, I think, yeah, they can be used to sort of, Narrate what they think liberals are doing or what we're trying to, or what Hollywood is trying to do. I think that would be an also a narrative probably like, look, Hollywood is doing what it's doing. You can't be watching that. And then I think there are some people who would watch it. And, you know, maybe it would be one of those things that they would use to convince themselves of their beliefs, if you will.

Pat 22:15

You know, you don't want to get me started on Civil War because I was really disappointed by that movie,

Brad 22:18

Is there,

Pat 22:20

yeah, if you think about folks today, is there any of the belief at this point where if you could get a member of the violent far right to watch this movie and actually discuss it, that, the reaction would be something to the effect that, these were just a bunch of dumb rednecks. We're much smarter, we're much better. We're much more effective than they could ever have dreamed of. Does that ever come into the conversation now?

Lauren 22:45

Oh, I would think so. And I remember something very similar being said when I was there by one of my affiliates at the time.

Pat 22:53

And do people just buy that?

Lauren 22:55

I feel like one person comes up with the narrative or the solution and everyone else just kind of plays along with it,

Brad 23:02

I think one thing we can't do, maybe the KKK isn't as prominent today or what have you, or Christian identity Extremists, who knows? I'm not a historian on the Christian identity. I know it's still there, but I do know that the Klan at different times throughout history has definitely been the most vicious and violent terrorist organizations in the United States. So I think for what they were dealing 1964, what it was doing. to communities back then was, it was terrorizing people. It was murder, violence, emotional, all of those things that those people were going through in those different communities. We'd have to like think about that and remember that this movie, did some of that. If you look in the background with how, The people were reacting to what was going on. I found that pretty interesting and emotional at times throughout the movie.

Pat 24:05

Yeah, no, I think there's no question about that. I think it's, everybody's obviously going to react in different ways, and I think, you know, despite The history that the Klan has had in the United States. It's not something that most of us know or understand. we've seen pictures of lynchings and pictures of cross burnings, but nobody really understand. Nobody wants to learn the history. Nobody really gets to know the history because it's just not. we like to talk about all of that, which is patriotic and important and positive. We like all that's dark and ugly. We tend to sort of push away because we're hoping we don't have to keep talking about that. But at the same time, Brad, I mean, one thing that came across when they're depicting the Klan, and maybe it's an accurate depiction, I just don't know enough, you know, is this notion of, you know, it almost being very family friendly. And not seeing any real outrage within the community when they would gather. I think there's the one scene where the deputy is explaining to the FBI that it's not a clan rally. It's simply a political meeting. Does one have to be in before you normalize it and just make it, yeah it's a part of, it's part of who we are as a part of where we're from.

Brad 25:17

I think that at that time now let's not move too far away from the truth. I think that's consistent with how they believed that they were operating, right? I mean, you can talk about, black culture and people of color in the South at that time, but the Caucasian folks down in that time, in those areas, you know, the Klan was often trying to present itself as advocates for, white Christian communities. when we push to normalization, if we think about today, with the politics that are out there in America, no matter which side of the coin you feel like you want to be on, that's, how you're living. That's your identity, right? And we would be blind if we were not recognizing some of those things, right? And I think this was a piece of their identity too at the time. To have that, like you were saying that, you know, that sense of, Worth sense of belonging, you want to be something, all that kind of thing. So some of these people were kind of overlooking the violent nature and the actuality of the terrorism side of that. KKK group and more looking at it. Well, that was the white civil rights group, right?

Lauren 26:38

Yeah, and actually what I also think is like you'd be surprised how many people just stay within that group overlook those things for the sake of their own safety Because I remember this a couple times where I would question or challenge just the slightest bit And I got accused of being a communist of being antifa being an informant of being whatever and It's Quite frankly like, things can really take a turn for the worse in, like, a split second when you're in a subculture like that. So, I do think there is also that aspect, too, is, like, fear of leaving or fear of the unknown, like, not knowing what's gonna happen if you, quote, step out of line.

Pat 27:20

And I guess that just becomes pervasive?

Lauren 27:24

Yeah, I would say so.

Pat 27:25

of stepping out of line?

Lauren 27:26

Yeah, because I remember many points in my eight years in that underground. Like, just a lot of anxiety and a lot of hesitation in participating in a conversation because I knew where it could possibly go.

Pat 27:40

Now, I'm curious. Lauren, when you look at this movie, there are almost no women whatsoever that play a role. the only woman who really plays a role is the wife of the deputy who, As she depicts is never going to leave her racist husband and is going to take getting abused by him, but also is aware enough to realize that she needs to do something and does, which is what obviously puts her in the hospital, not to spoil anything for folks. If you haven't seen it already, how accurate do you think that is?

Lauren 28:13

I would say it's very accurate and very much still relevant because that's often what the far right expects of women and to the, every group is different as far as where they want women, how they view them, et cetera, et cetera. But definitely with the group that I was with for Like the last half of my involvement That's pretty much what it looked like minus the stupid dresses and shit Even if they did try to enforce that rule, I would not have gone with it. Just putting that out there But for me actually like for anybody out there who's ever read my book there is a reason why that character did resonate with me so much I was lucky enough to get out of it without getting beaten by my partner but I can almost Guarantee that would have happened if I had stayed in longer.

Pat 28:59

So what was it that, I mean, I realize that we're talking about fictional characters, what happens then for somebody to decide that they do need to get out rather than somebody, Lauren, you discussed this when y'all were talking about Black Klansmen, for instance. And the challenges that women have in dealing with these organizations in the movement. How does one make that decision that, you know, what has to happen for you to decide that it's finally time either to get out of the movement, or at least get away from somebody who is going to cause great harm to you personally?

Lauren 29:35

Well, you know what? I mean, there was a bunch of things that made me want to leave the ideology, the lifestyle, the behavior, the everything behind but I think in specific to this topic, like what made me think that I was in danger from the people that I was associating with, particularly my partner at the time was when I had eavesdropped on a conversation where one of our friends was trying to encourage him to replace my birth control pills with placebo pills. But I'm also like, you know what, there's no use in fighting this one anymore, I'm not gonna win it. Well, really, I could win it by getting out, so that was my logic at the time. And I also remember another time when I decided to go vent off to one of the other members wives about all this like what was going on between myself and my partner, and she had told me verbatim, you know, it's just easier if you do what they say, and I'm like, this is fucked. So, that's what got me out of it and what made me realize I'm in danger, but at the same time, I've also heard of and known people who are in it for several years who think that type of shit's normal, or like they've normalized it for themselves.

Pat 30:42

I'm guessing that is as true today as it was in 1964.

Lauren 30:47

Oh, I would think so. I often say that history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

Pat 30:53

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right on this sort of thing. So I'm thinking about that. I'm curious from both of y'all. When you look at all of the characters in this movie, who is the most accurate portrayal? Who is somebody that you could have placed in your past, and you say, oh yeah, I knew that person. Is there one person that jumps out at you?

Lauren 31:12

Actually, the younger FBI agent. He actually reminds me a lot of one of my friends from high school who was never involved in any of this. He made the effort to understand what the hell was going on at the time, but at the same time, he's like, you know what? I can't personally relate to any of this.

Pat 31:28

And was there anybody, Lauren, that you were watching this and just going, you know, I got to call bullshit. There is no way. This person would have been involved or this person would have been doing what they did. Is there something you just, it just most sensationalized portrayal that you saw in the place?

Lauren 31:45

Maybe get back to me on that one.

Brad 31:47

So here's my I love movies, brain turning on here. I'm a Willem Dafoe fan and Gene Hackman. I thought this was done really well. I didn't think there was a lot of that sensationalization stuff. Pat, what do you think?

Pat 32:02

I mean,

Brad 32:03

there's some,

Pat 32:04

There is, I will say, I think that in terms of what was least believable for me setting aside the fact that you've got the mayor who's best known for usually playing hard ass Marine drill sergeants in most movies. Yeah, I guess for me, the hardest part is this notion that here you have the mayor of this town elected by these people who was not involved. And again, spoiler alert, I realize he takes his own life at the end of it. But the revelation by the agent in charge that he was not responsible for it yet. He was because he didn't do anything. I guess I just find it really hard that in Mississippi in 1964, when you have an entire community that's making sure that black residents aren't able to register to vote, that the mayor's hands are clean.

Brad 32:56

Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. The portrayal, like, I mean, it's tough to do these movies perfect, though, because as we saw, even in modern day movies about skinhead groups in American History X, like, still wasn't perfect. Had a weird, sensational vibe to it at times. Very Hollywood y yeah, the whole lights, camera, action feel for me. There was a couple points in, Mississippi burning that were similar. It's like they just had to toss that in because just has to be like that. It has to be corny or I don't know if corny is the right word, but I think it kind of fits at different times. You know, the angry mob scenes, sometimes that's a bit overdone. I think obviously there'd be angry mobs, but I really doubt they would look like that. I just mean how God awful and corny they look.

Brad (2) 33:48

So

Brad 33:51

you can't, I can't take that seriously. Like you know those movies that are about the death penalty and they have that there's all these people with placards outside the thing saying, you know, stop the death penalty or whatever. And, but it's so cheesy and there's like eight people there, like scenes like that.

Pat 34:07

Now, I'm curious from both of y'all, I mean, it's. There is no question that the VFRE is not exactly the biggest fans of law enforcement. And even though you probably have a significant number of law enforcement who are in the VFRE. I'm curious you're thinking, I mean, sort of the turning point from the movie, in terms of at least getting the answers that the FBI is looking for. Is when they finally decide that no longer are they going to follow the letter of the law and follow the FBI handbook as it's been prescribed, but they're going to bend some rules until they break. they're going to do some sort of. post legal activities to get the answers that they need. I guess I'm curious your thought you're thinking in terms of both how accurate and how effective that is.

Brad 34:58

So, to summarize the question here, that it's how accurate and effective That the police

Pat 35:06

in order to root out these problems, the police have to break their own rules.

Brad 35:10

Yeah, that

Lauren 35:12

I feel like that does happen quite often.

Brad 35:15

I mean, but there's there's problematic stuff within that because of what you said though, Pat, because yeah, there are extremists who are police, right? Yeah. Or there are officials who are police or are extremists who also, you know, are involved in how police chiefs are chosen. And it just, there's all sorts of institutional and structural problems with how these groups were afforded a capacity to operate, you know? And I feel like police weren't necessarily hated so much by your average, like, like white dude back then. Cause like, what, like why? Why would they, you know, why would they fear police? there was a recent study done in the UK that we're all familiar with where they we're talking about communicating with different people in society. And people's perceptions of law enforcement in the UK are much different than America and Canada. policing is different there, but policing in the United States specifically has been under wide scrutiny for decades upon decades. But it is those who break the rules that also continue to make the rules. it kind of is this vicious circle of I think nowadays there's a little more violent far right support for police agencies particularly because some of them might be in it themselves, but also just because there's just been so many instances where members of police agencies have arguably misused their power to affect vulnerable or disadvantaged individuals. Particularly people of color. So, how does that, connect to the movement, violent far right movement specifically, kind of, even in looking what, what's just happened in news today, than yesterday with the football player being arrested, like it, it just has like radicalized a bunch of people to start talking about the policing issues from whatever vantage points they have. In America, and that's what these groups want is they want that us versus them thing happening. That I think even boils into the police culture, thin blue line, all that stuff, right? It's without the us versus them, then what do we do? And that's the, I think that movie. depicted that us versus them thing and it's almost like there's no answer for the racism in the south. Maybe i'm wrong there, but like I feel like it was trying to hit on that a little bit that What do you really do about it when it's like embedded there? Like what can you do? I you know, you could have advocates but like what does that really do?

Pat 38:13

It's still an issue that same region and the country continues to grapple with and Hasn't necessarily learned from Lauren I have to imagine you have a view on the role that the police were portrayed as.

Lauren 38:25

Yeah, I'm just not really sure how to word this. Like, I gotta say, I've heard of stuff like this before, So, in terms of how the far right views police, It all depends on what's going on at the time. So, like, my old self, if I was getting arrested, I fucking hated them. But, I also clearly remember one of my ex service participants a couple years ago, when I had him telling me, I don't mind police because of what happened to George Floyd, like, I support them when they want to do shit like that. And I'm like, okay, at least you're honest, but, like, fuck, man, your thinking is flawed.

Pat 39:01

Yeah it's funny. I mean, when you look at this and hearing you Lauren, it has me thinking, is there going to be a period in 30 years where we're going to see somebody who's going to do a similar movie around Charlottesville?

Lauren 39:13

Oh, I can see it happening.

Pat 39:15

And how would we revise history at that point? What growth have we hopefully experienced that puts that in a new lens? Cause I mean, even. in 1988, you're talking to what, 25 years after these incidents in Mississippi not a whole lot changed.

Lauren 39:32

Yeah. And it's unfortunate to say, but I also don't see a whole lot changing for the better anytime soon. I think you're being honest.

Pat 39:41

you know, where you and Brad started in all of this is, if part of this is. Essentially it's an act, you're acting out of agreement that somebody has wronged you or somebody has taken what you believe is yours. and that requires action that's not going to go away anytime soon. I mean, we're far better today in 2024, at least in the United States, about figuring out who's to blame for what we've got in society even then we were in 1964. We don't necessarily do anything about it, but we sure know who's to blame for it. And we've got plenty of leaders who are going to tell us that.

Lauren 40:18

Well, and even in terms of like any anti racism work that people do, unfortunately, I've seen this far too often where we'd rather point the finger at somebody else than hold the mirror up to our own face. Cause I often say, okay, change actually has to start with like us. So for me, it's like, okay, act the way that I would like Society to eventually be kind of thing, if that makes sense, We'd rather just call somebody out, cancel somebody do what we've been doing for the last couple of years.

Pat 40:48

I think it's dead on. So I, as we sort of near the end of our time, I'm curious whether any parts of the movie that were just difficult for either of you to watch, that if you were to watch the movie again, you'd say, I can fast forward through this part.

Lauren 41:02

I find I can watch this stuff, but not without that feeling in the bottom of my stomach. But at the same time, I'm like, okay, I am happy that is there because it never used to be.

Brad (2) 41:12

I don't know if that these movies bother me as much as

Pat 41:16

it.

Brad (2) 41:17

You know,

Brad 41:18

It's just it's tough to put the words together about why. I think we've talked a little bit about it though, Pat, It's some of the sensationalist stuff is almost kind of like on the comical end of it not that this movie was funny whatsoever, I think what Hollywood does to things, it's like sucks a lot. So I, you know, you're kind of watching through and you're like, okay, well, that was good. that really explained what was happening at the time, but then they put a bowl of shit on it and you're like that missed. That's why it's when they say based on actual events or true events, they don't say this is true events cause that's a documentary. So, I think it also has a lot to do with when we're doing these types of movies for these film reviews is which actors are in there portraying these things. one of my favorite movies of all time is Malcolm X. And that's because of who the actors were in that movie. I don't know that Mississippi burning. Was that far off with the actors? I think they did quite well, but again, there were some times where you're sitting there going, I don't know. And that's why I get what you're saying to learn, like the pit of your stomach thing. We used to not have that. Well, we're seeing this from a real different lens now though. Right.

Pat 42:34

Yeah,

Brad 42:34

we're seeing it from an experiential lens where we're like. Okay, well, I've been those people who are yelling that other garbage, right? But I think I'm more accepting of like, knowing that there's people out there that are living with this fear of the other like that. And like, we want to reach them somehow too, right? People always ask why, but you know, that's not the question we're answering today. I think that's what these movies could do.

Pat 43:05

Mhm.

Brad 43:06

Like, they could help people, particularly if we talk about it from the lens of, we don't have to be a Christian white supremacist. We can be just a Christian and enjoy our lives.

Lauren 43:20

Yeah. I was going to say, like, I'm okay watching these things and sitting with that feeling because I recognize that feeling is empathy. So I feel like that's also kind of an important thing here. Like, it's not me being triggered by it, it's just me seeing what the hell's going on for what it is.

Brad 43:36

And feeling the art form, see, like, seeing, feeling, maybe we didn't want to feel before so we, you know, drowned ourselves in vodka and then watched the movie and then was like, Ah, of course we knew it. Look, conspiracy, right? Against white people. Like, that's what would have come up, I think, before, right? More than likely. Now it's like, no, I'm going to watch it for what it really is. And I'm going to try to connect to it and understand what people were going through at that time.

Lauren 44:04

Yeah, it's a lot easier to do without the racist lens, for sure.

Brad 44:08

What's way more authentic to like actually hear it out and that's, I mean, I think in the work we do at Life After Hate, I think that's it. We're trying to meet people where they're at. People are at all sorts of nexus points in their lives, right? And you know, this, we don't always have to accept the most awful thing as the truth. And I think that's what was going on a lot with the Klan, was just like, narrative after narrative, and if you pump the same stuff out there enough times you're going to get people following it, right? And we're seeing this in real time today.

Pat 44:42

I'm curious, Brett you just used the term, the truth, and you started off on this question, you're talking about, it's based on true events.

Brad (2) 44:52

Yes.

Pat 44:52

Does that make it easier or harder? And I'm thinking, whether we're talking about a movie like Mississippi Burning or, you had mentioned, I know that's going to be a subject of a future movie night when we talk about a movie like American History X. Does it make it easier knowing that this is based on truth or does it lead to wanting all sorts of scrutiny to see what part is Hollywood and what part is truth?

Brad 45:15

I think in our cases, we're probably just, a little more well versed in understanding these things because we've got this life experience and now we're work experience working around this stuff and understanding these narratives and what they are. our bullshit meters are probably a little. more developed than other people. we also don't want to start explaining truths of others too much, right? there are populations of people who experienced the clan in the sixties and, you know, I can't even imagine how horrifying that was. And if they were to watch the, this movie how would their time go? I can't imagine that would be great for some people. and because Hollywood often projects things in not a great way for everyone, right? And we're talking about 1980s Hollywood too, which I'm not sure they were necessarily as in touch with things at different times.

Pat 46:17

Well, I mean, every character in this movie had their own truth,

Brad (2) 46:21

Yeah, 100%.

Pat 46:22

Yeah, it's and you probably could have done a whole bunch of prequels to it. I'm thinking in particular, it's, the one thing that hit me, when, you know, Agent Anderson, Gene Hackman is describing his own background. Is, you know, what drives one from being a small town, Alabama sheriff in the forties and fifties into being an FBI agent in the Kennedy administration. That's not a logical jump for anybody. And you think you saw him getting called out because I think is even his fellow agents thought he was a Southern redneck who was part of the problem. But what, you know, what was the truth that got him there? We'll never know. I mean, we at least know what got Adrian Allen there, but that's about it. Yeah. Truth can be tricky.

Brad 47:11

Yeah, and I think the word truth is loved so much by the far right. Like it is, oh, we have, you know, we have the truest form. We understand Christianity the best. We understand Odinism the best. We understand this because we're white and we have the truth. And it's like, you know, immediately when somebody tells me this is true. I'm like, questions arise. So, cause why do you have the truth? And I don't. Right.

Lauren 47:45

I remember blatantly saying stuff like that too. It's like, I'm not brainwashed. I just know the truth. I'm not racist. I'm just telling the truth.

Brad 47:53

Yeah. Well, it makes you brainwashed at the time.

Pat 47:58

Yeah. I mean, I have to imagine, I mean, if you were living in Mississippi in the mid 1960s. And, these three civil rights workers the local papers probably never covered it. You know, your local radio station probably never covered it. You know, it only became a story, at least as they depict it in the movie, when the national TV media decides to come to Mississippi. at one point, you know, it's, you know, we talk about it today where, you know, you can find media to back up your version of the truth if you want it. Doesn't make it true, but we'll find somebody who's going to. Who's going to substantiate exactly what you believe. And if you don't report on it, is it truth?

Lauren 48:40

Yeah. And actually speaking of the part in the movie, when the media was there during the search, the number of people they interviewed that said, Oh, I think this is a hoax, like Brad, do you remember saying stuff similar to that when you were in the movement? Cause I sure as hell do.

Brad 48:54

Yeah, I mean, obviously, anything that wasn't in line with what we were parroting would be lies or conspiracies against the white race or whatever it is, Even though, I mean, we can think of the, one of the biggest conspiracy theories of the far right is the holocaust denial stuff like, Even if you bloody well know that was one of the biggest human tragedies in the history of the world You're sitting there going. but like if you say yeah, but to the whole like come on Like where are we at? Like but that was the that's the movement in summary. Oh, but we have questions about that It couldn't have been Yeah. Imagine then trying to make that into truth, what you're saying, and that's what we were doing all the time within that movement. It was always like building a conspiracy on onto a conspiracy and then serving it to people.

Pat 49:52

Now, Lauren, does it become even more dangerous? I mean, you're talking about when they were, when you had the TV media was interviewing and you have some of those folks that are talking about the hoax look like they're right out of central casting, you'd expect them to. But then, you had the, I remember there, there was the one quick TV scene they did where they're talking to a woman with a kid on her lap. Does that make the hoax more believable when you see somebody like that saying it's a hoax?

Lauren 50:21

I would say so because it comes off as like just your average person with a family and stuff. So I think realistically, like it's all about image or presentation rather.

Brad 50:31

Well, yeah. And I mean, we've reviewed some other movies who have had that too, right? Like it's if you can manage to get the connection to what looks normal for most people, like family having kids, not in a house with a swastika flags and guys holding guns and whatever then, cause it really just doesn't, that doesn't fit the bill, right? That doesn't fit the the media can't portray that in any way as like. A danger to society and they're purposely doing that because they want to portray it as, this whole scenario of a utopian society for white people that provides a safe safe for the white race or whatever, but then they're not showing the grim details of how that happens though.

Pat 51:18

So I know, we're nearing the end of our time on this movie, and I'm curious what other thoughts do y'all have? is there something that we missed that is just an important part of this discussion that we need to make sure we highlight?

Brad 51:28

I mean, what do you guys think about you know, so today if they were to remake this film what do you think the feedback would be? Or what do you think it would be like if this was made today? if we did, like we're doing across the board with movies now, we seem to be remaking 1970s, 1980s, some 90s movies, like what would this entail?

Lauren 51:51

Just in terms of how people would react to it in general. I feel like it would be mixed reactions. Like, so it's pretty obvious to me by this point that there's people who are well aware of the racism that's ingrained in our society, but there's also others where they deny it up and down. It wasn't pretty.

Pat 52:09

I think if we were to redo this movie, I think that if this story were retold, we'd retell it through somebody else's eyes. We would either retell this story through the wife of the deputy. Or through the young man who was preaching after the church burned down. I don't think it would be done through the two FBI agents eyes this time around.

Brad 52:33

Yeah, I think culturally that would be a massive mistake right now for filmmakers to make a film from the perspective of the law enforcement.

Pat 52:44

It's a fascinating question, Brad, because I think that as much as law enforcement was to blame for some of the most egregious civil rights violations in the country the movement would not have been successful were it not for both activists and law enforcement. I mean, you look at something like the desegregation of the Arkansas public schools, you know, that only happened because we brought the national guard in. And they stood watch because the local police wouldn't. But, I think It would be hard for us to swallow that law enforcement is an essential positive contributor to the solutions. Well, I thank you both Lauren, Brad, thank you for allowing me to join you on this one. I enjoy watching the movie nights from afar and listening to y'all's discussions. I appreciate having the time to chat with you all today. And hopefully Sam we'll need to go on assignment again and I'll have another opportunity.

Lauren 53:37

Thank you.

Brad 53:39

Yep. Sounds Good. Good chatting guys on this. This movie being a real favorite of mine. So yeah,

Pat 53:45

Have a great night

Brad 53:45

Bye