Movie Night- American History X with Frank Meeink

American History X is loved and hated by many people- some think it's too sappy, others think it's too brutal. But what do people who actually lived that life think? Join the Formers as we pick Frank Meeink's brain about what it's like to "allegedly" inspire such a critical film.

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Transcript

audiosamantha31288999687 0:12

Welcome to Movie Night, a film discussion by The Daily Former. today we are talking about the quintessential movie you think of when you think about white nationalism And bad ideas. My name is Sam, and with me I have Jamie, Warren, and our special guest, the man, the myth, the living legend, Frank McMink himself. Frank, do you want to do a quick intro about yourself, kind of how you connect to this movie? Just kind of tell us whatever you think is necessary before we get into it.

Frank 0:39

Okay. So thank you for having me on. It's a pleasure. You know, I got into just to go over a little brief synopsis of my life is I got into this movement around 88, 89. And just got very active from an early age, 14 to 15, you know, did not go to high school, just lived in compounds and. Traveled around the country and lived with different groups and different organizations. And yes, I went to prison when I was 17 years old and in the department of Illinois Department of Corrections. So, the Chicago and the St. Louis, basically their prison system, and I went to prison for kidnapping a what we would consider an Antifa member. And yes my story does go along the lines of the movie a good bit. You know, I went to prison. I was always a ball. I always played ball my whole life. I was a sports kid from Philly, and you know, when other players see another player and see that he's good you just kind of make that connections. And that is my story. That's what happened. And also just so people understand, even in my, my autobiography, I mentioned that like American history ain't my story. It's kind of everybody's story that I know of that's had some type of psyche change in their life. And yeah the connections I've made in there were a key part of me changing and I'll just say this, you know, I'm a city kid, and I was in this maximum security adult prison at 17, and the other kids that were my age, there wasn't one or two other white kids, but they were all bikers. I mean, all my guys that were Aryans were all bikers from Southern and Central Illinois. And I never been on a Harley Davidson in my life. I've never really driven a bike in my life. And that's all these men talked about. So be it. That's their life. That's what they're into. But who liked to play ball and who was good at ball were some of the black kids from Chicago and East St. Louis. So, I would play with them because I got better competition on the movie, you know, people always, here's the funny thing is that even to this day just a couple of months ago, they did a story about me in the, New York post. And we interviewed for four days about this story about my transformation in the Judaism and all this beautiful stuff. Never once talked about American History X. Never talked about it once. But when the story comes out, the top headlines of the story says, Former Neo Nazi who inspired American History X turned Jewish. And we never even about that. Like it's jus going along with me, no m the movie part when p they interview me, they n for the book or for the m And he had told me they mentioned they knew my story when they were interviewing him for the story. For whatever reason they just, sometimes maybe I just rub people the wrong way, I don't know. They didn't, they didn't interview me, you know, for whatever reason that this movie, I don't go out and scream, hey that's my story. Everyone else has always screamed it back at me, and for whatever reason, and this is, I gotta take it as a god thing, that that movie has always made it so that my voice is heard, whatever it might be. I I don't plan on it, I don't I got my own scripts out there, I got my own thing going on, I hate that that's tied to me, but for whatever reason, like when the government came to ask me to testify against neo Nazi cops, the first thing the government asked me was, Hey, you're the guy from that movie. And I'm going to have to break it down. And it's not me, but it's still kept my voice relative enough. That they asked me to testify in front of Congress. So it's crazy what that movie has done. The last thing I'll say about that movie is I've worked with a lot of formers, same as you guys all in here There's a lot of people that have come to me because they've seen that movie. And they've just been either referenced it, said they have moments like that, and it's a building block. So the movie has done its job. And the last thing I said it's the last thing, but my rabbi that's in my life today, whenever that movie comes up, he always goes, It's not your movie. It's not their movie. It's God's movie. Once it's out there, it's God's. Let God do it's work with that movie. You just do your work and whatever happens, happens. So that's the story of me and this movie.

audiosamantha31288999687 4:43

that's such a great story. I was going to ask about how you felt about being tied to the movie, especially for it being so long since you've left. But I feel like in Edward Norton incredibly critically lauded movie is like not the worst thing that could be attached to you. But yeah, I can only imagine how frustrating it might be. You just basically knew the movie was happening and then it came out and you watched it.

Frank 5:06

Well, when the movie came out Good Morning America, or one of those hard copy, or one of the shows at the time, called me. And that's one of the other things that happened with that movie is right before that movie was coming out, at the time I was coaching hockey in Philly for the Philadelphia Flyers. And I was, you know, this former neo Nazi, but I still had the swastika on my neck. Again, it wasn't on my chest, it was on my neck. I was coaching black kids in Philly and how to play hockey. So hard copy is please do a story with us. And at the time I was burying. Not with the media, and I just was like, no, no, no. Well, anyway, finally the Philadelphia Flyers, who I was working for at the time, said, hey, you know, we've been putting a lot of money into this program, we'd like to get some press. And I get it, that's part of the game, with that not being, they weren't, Being media whores or anything. They were just like, hey, putting a lot of money into this. We trust in you. You know, we want to get some press out of this. Will you do the story? Anyway, I did the story. That was years earlier. That was in 95 that happened. So when American hit, so for about three years, the media been on me like, hey, we want to do a story about you. And I was like, no, no. American History X coming out, and a bunch of the TV shows get a hold of me, hard copy, Good Morning America, a bunch of them, you can go find all these, they're all on YouTube. They came to me and they're like, why aren't you promoting your movie? And at the time I was like, it's not my movie, I heard about this movie, but it's not my movie, and they're like, well we're hearing from other people that it is your movie. So that's why if you ever see the hard copy from the day of the premiere of American History X, it says, here's the real guy. And I don't say anything about the movie in my interview, but they're like, here's the real guy we're hearing from other people. That's the real guy. So, so it's just kind of always been there. And then because of that, a lot of other good things that happened in my life. But. So when the movie came out, they brought me to the premiere in they had a big premiere in Philly, actually, and they, they brought me and I brought another guy that I was just getting out of the movement. I brought him with me to come watch the movie. Yeah. Yeah. his name was Joe Sumner and Joe Sumner was an old hammer skin and they paid for me and him to go to the movie together and talk to me afterwards.

audiosamantha31288999687 7:14

That's really cool. Well, I originally I was actually going to say that I won't be talking very much in this, in this because this depicts an older iteration than than I'd been in. And I'd watch the review when I was, you know, when it came out, I, not when it came out, because I was like a child when it came out, but when I got older, I had an Edward Norton phase as we all do. And I watched it and was just kind of, blown away by how raw it was. Naturally, I did not take any of the lessons I learned and still joined the far right like a fucking tool, but I'm out now. And I rewatched it thinking that because it is an older iteration, like I'm not, when I was in the movement, we made fun of, you know, No offense to you guys, but we made fun of the older iterations and said you guys are 1. 0 you guys are the boots and braces, we're the real sophisticates, and then I watched it and I was like, nothing has changed, we wear khakis, but it's literally all the same. it was kind of embarrassing to watch it now, The movie is so so representative of the movement, no matter what time you're in. So, Jamie and Lauren, let me get, let me get your tapes on the movie. Do you guys have history with it? When did you first see it? Was it last night, which I assume it's not, but yeah. What about you guys?

Lauren 8:24

Actually, my first memory of hearing of the movie was when I was first getting into the movement. I was bragging about my newfound involvement with an online friend of mine, and he's okay, what you're in, what you're getting into is utter horseshit. Here, watch American History X, it'll change your mind. So I pretended as though I'd seen it before, and I'm like, it's fucking Hollywood being Hollywood, man. So my first time watching it was a couple years later. In my early 20s or so, this was like right in the middle of my involvement. And there was definitely some stuff where I couldn't deny that it was relevant to my life, especially the part about the main character losing his father and then going off the rails. That's literally my trajectory into the movement when I was younger. So that part did strike me. But at the same time I had criticisms up and down. I would come up with literally anything to prove that it was just Hollywood being dramatic. A Typically are that was my wording at the time and then I watched it again a couple weeks ago Obviously through a lens of being out like nine years later. And actually funny shit. My mom and brother were both watching it with me so yeah Lovely family entertainment at the dinner table, I know.

audiosamantha31288999687 9:32

some light watching. Yeah.

Lauren 9:34

yeah, but you know what? I am lucky to have a family where I can actually have these discussions with them. Not very many people do. And we watched it and we're like, you know what? I do remember a character that fitted this person perfectly. So, the friend that Norton makes in jail, or Derek makes in jail, rather. I had a friend like that in college that's the maturity level of a bunch of 20 year olds. That's just how it goes,

audiosamantha31288999687 10:00

we can even get into the movement about how your primal you know, the self preservation, the concept of all that comes first above all. I remember when I joined, I thought I was bringing my family I was like, I'm protecting the family name blah, blah, blah. And it's no, I'm just putting everyone at risk. And I, I, the day I realized that was, That was a, that was a really hard day of realizing, like, how actually selfish it is to, to be doing this stuff. Jamie, what about you? Was this, and I apologize for, I'm just being so rude about everyone's age right now, but is this around the same time as your involvement? Is this before, after, kind of like, would you guys have been pals?

Jamie 10:36

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I got into being a skinhead same time Frank did 87, 88. So this movie would have been 10 years later. I watched it when it came out. I didn't like it. I thought it was absolute garbage. But that was because, you know, I was still involved in the movement. You know, I'm still involved in the groups, so I didn't like the overall message of redemption. So, you know, I was still caught up in everything watching this thinking this is like Lauren said, this is complete Hollywood bullshit. Well, Lauren, like Lauren wasn't suggesting that, but, you know, saying, you know, this is complete bullshit. But, you know, watching again, you know, like last week before I went to bed, which was not a smart idea. I would not watch a movie like this before you go to bed. It just, you know, it's a mindfuck. But you know, there are snippets now right where I look back and I, and I'm like, yeah, why didn't I recognize this at the time? Like you were saying, you know, with family dynamics and whatnot, the pressure puts on your family I watched this with my girlfriend, or would have been wife at the time, and she's this movie is horseshit the whole message is garbage, like, why are you, why do you guys believe this stuff? And I'm like, yeah, you just don't get it. You don't understand. The message is powerful, but don't take the movie that way. It's just Hollywood crap. Thankfully, she stood beside me, but, you know, looking back and seeing the scene at the dinner table where they're arguing with each other, and it gets bad. Violent confrontation. That scene is absolutely brutal. You know, the kid, the little guy's trying to pull him off. He's pushing his mom away. You know, the girlfriend's yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that is just so wrong. The pressure that puts on a family. So seeing that now, thinking, holy fuck, that was me. Then. dismissing people that were actually caring and trying to put me on that right path.

audiosamantha31288999687 12:15

whenever anyone tries to argue with the ideology. you take it as they're actually trying to assassinate you. They're trying to say you're a bad person and not just that you're a person with bad ideas. And I think leaving and separating the two and realizing that you don't have to be the summation of the dumb shit that floats around in your head. Like you can actually filter that out and decide what you want to act on and not. That was, Again, that too was really annoying and hard to realize But Frank, yeah, tell me, do you, did you, did you like it?

Frank 12:47

no, let me just say this for the positive part of that some of the greatest outreach I've ever done to people is to remind them that do you ever notice your family doesn't want you around? and I don't say it as a judgment. I say it because it happened to me. Because everywhere I went, that's all I talked about. My family didn't have no choice but other to stop inviting me to barbecues, right? Because all I did was talk this shit all the time. You know, it's almost, I'm not trying to get, but it's like when you invite certain people over your house today that are very active in one political movement. You know, one word, Nancy Pelosi, they go crazy, right? I waited for that one word of whatever you said at the barbeque, so I can jump on you and jump on the situation, and it was non fucking stop. And of course, my family didn't stop loving me. I just drained them of all of that. and what did I used to say the same thing they say to me is that well I'm just trying to speak the truth and they don't want to hear no your family just want to have a good time They just want to enjoy the time together. And when you wait for one little thing so you can say Whatever it might be, you know, that's why we need to ban all books and drag queens or whatever Like you're just waiting for that one word every time in entertainment. It starts to drain on fucking people And so anyway, I'm getting off. But that scene at the dinner table is that that Jamie was talking about. It's that moment that we get to go. Me too. I used to have them with my family all and us and I'll stop sharing what this is. You said it best. I thought I was defending the white race. Y'all like I really, when I was in this, I was in it and I thought,

audiosamantha31288999687 14:29

we all did.

Frank 14:30

yeah yeah, like I'm down and I'm down to defend the white race and my family and here. No, I was just putting everybody at risk that tried to love me and tolerate me in their life. I just put them all at risk all the time.

audiosamantha31288999687 14:42

Yeah.

Frank 14:44

So yeah, that dinner scene is amazing.

Lauren 14:46

I've literally had dinner scenes just like that in my past, with both my immediate family and my extended family. So, I remember my mom telling me one time that it wasn't actually so much the beliefs and the rhetoric itself, it was my friggin confrontational attitude. It was draining as hell to deal with.

audiosamantha31288999687 15:03

I was still kind of fresh in the movement when I joined. And so when I like learned something new or like something that I thought was like, I'm going to own the libs, I'd wait until I could bring it up. And my family would just be like, are you fucking kidding with me? find a way for that to relate to like reality and we'll give you the benefit of the doubt. it was really embarrassing. Looking back, when you talk about your family pushing you away, that pushes you into the fold of the movement even more. And it makes you feel like it's us against the world all of a sudden. And I'm, I'm curious, did you guys, because I think about this a lot, when I first left, I met, I missed two people really bad. And I was like, man, we got along so well and blah, blah, blah. And as time went on, I was like, Oh, we actually didn't really have a whole lot in common, except Just the rhetoric that we would just keep practicing on each other, basically. Did you guys actually make any legitimate friends while you were in there? And what, what happened with that?

Lauren 15:57

Actually, I can tell you guys a good ending with this story. So, this person is actually is also out, too. So, I met this person when I was affiliated with Hammer Skins. This would have been around 2010, I want to say. So, he was first coming around, and I kind of noticed that he had followed my social media. Always respected me and yeah, just always asked for my opinion and advice on stuff. So, I remember I had left, and he had messaged me, I want to say around 2021, 2022, saying, oh yeah, I got out just after you, and I continued stalking your social media, just because I needed some guidance on my life. So, we are friends now,

audiosamantha31288999687 16:36

That's great. Yeah, what about you guys? Jamie, I know that you are like, Best pals with Brad, but anyone else and, and have you been able to maintain contact with anyone that was still in the movement? I wasn't but I've met a lot of people that have been clients that think it's possible and are like, yeah, I'll just be a good example for them. You're never going to get as far as you can because the people that are in the movement are either terrified that you're going to them. Do something to them, or they're trying to get you back in. You're never really going to reach the other side of leaving if you keep that going on. But that's at least my experience. What about y'all?

Jamie 17:10

I cut ties with everybody when I left that was it we're done. I don't want anything to do with anybody anymore. Thankfully, Brad and I reconnected, but we had a friendship back then outside the movement, so we've been friends now for over 20 years. There's a couple other people I still talk to that also left just before me or around the same time. But again, they cut ties with everybody, but we've reconnected. And that's, you know, the friendships there are great because we know we were shit garbage people and we put that past us and we recognize how stupid we were and how foolish we were. And now, you know, our relationship is built on on different things. So that's to me, that's positive. But as for keeping connection with anybody, I could, I couldn't do it. I won't do it. I want nothing to do with you, your ideology or your bullshit.

audiosamantha31288999687 18:00

Yeah.

Lauren 18:01

I just got reminded of something that had happened just after I had attempted to cut all ties. This was around 2015, when I had broken up with the ex boyfriend from the circle. So, someone had reached out to me who was clearly still in the group, as I would figure out later, but pretending that they were also on their way out, too. So, we ended up dating. So, pardon my language, but he tried to fuck me back into the movement. That's just the reality of the situation, and, you know, just the fucking mentality of some of these people thinking that that would work, and of course, me being the extremely defiant little asshole that I still was at the time, I'm like, dude, I know exactly what the fuck you're doing, so you can just imagine what kind of relationship it was for us, it only lasted for three months, and I had also seen early, early red flags of abuse, like just the gaslighting like the controlling manipulative behavior. And thankfully for me, gaslighting does not work on me. I couldn't tell you guys why I don't have the magic solution to get around it. It just doesn't, for whatever reason. So, I remember we got into our second and final argument on the phone one night. Huge yelling match. So, I told him, okay, I'm done. He told me to go fuck myself. And I said, yeah, well, it feels better than when you did it.

audiosamantha31288999687 19:14

Honestly. Yeah. That's, that's all. That's great that the gaslighting didn't work on you. That's, I'm extremely envious of that. Frank, what about you? Oh

Frank 19:22

Well, yeah I think, well, you know, a lot of stuff happened right when you know, I got out and you know, I had some pretty big moments that were pointed me to say, you know, you're not doing the right things. And so that had already happened to me. And then Joe Rowan got killed. If you guys remember Joe Rowan and so Joe Rowan gets killed and he was a friend of mine in the movement. I mean, we Used to sleep at his house. So you used to talk about girls. We used to you know, we were friends and and I remember I won't give his name out, but he was the lead lead singer of a very popular band at the time and he called me and said, you know, joe died joe was just killed and We're getting all the troops from PA together. We're going to go up to Racine and, and break this thing off. And there was a moment, man, I'll never forget that moment. There was a moment where, because of my friendship, I was like, yeah. And then he said we're going to call you back in a little bit. They wanted me to go grab some, some things to bring up there with us. And so he said, I'm gonna call you back in a little bit. And I remember I hung up the phone and didn't want to do it. You know, but it was this craziest moment, one of the craziest where I remember thinking I want to revenge my friend's death, but I know this is all bullshit. And I'll never forget. He called me back and said, cancel it. Cancel, cancel the, the order or whatever he said. The media was like, cancel the order. We're not going. And this huge wave of relief. Came over me and I just remember going, I'm not talking to another one of them ever again. Like I'm not. And I had tickets to a Misfits concert was coming up and I bought tickets with a bunch of a bunch of guys from the movement. You know, I want to I didn't go to that show because they were all going to go. And then I went to the next show and

audiosamantha31288999687 21:18

Damn.

Frank 21:19

I just said, I'm not going to go. I'm going to eat the money. I'm not going to go. And I was going to go, they had a two night show and I was like, I'm going to go the next night. And I went the next night and was there. They were actually a bunch of them. And I was like, shit, like I ate the money for the last concert, bought this money cause I figured. And came up to me and said they're going to get you tonight. I guess we were such good friends. Like we were great boyhood friends that came up in the movement together. And he, he hugged me and the rest of them weren't even, wouldn't even touch, talk to me at the concert. And he remembered he hugged me and he said, they're going to get you tonight. And

audiosamantha31288999687 21:56

Oh my god.

Frank 21:57

it saved my, it saved me. I knew to keep my guard up and and some things happened that made sure that they didn't come and get me. I had a, I had enough friends there from my neighborhood and other friends and some other people that were so happy that I had changed. Some, some sharps that were there were old friends of mine who were there who were like, you know, if anything goes down, we got your back. And yeah, so that was you know, those were type of friends I had in that movement. The. To talk more about the people that tried to get a hold of me, you know, their biggest thing was, you know, that I became a piece of shit. I was a piece of shit, and then I went and worked, and then I was working, right after Oklahoma City bombing, I go work with the ADL, so now I'm the fucking enemy, you know what I mean? So, I was the fucking enemy, and as you guys know, I don't know if you're, you know, they, they rolled me, they jumped me at funeral though, that's where they got me.

audiosamantha31288999687 22:47

No, I didn't know that.

Frank 22:48

Yeah, they jumped me outside, and and I, you know, not to be a tough guy or anything. I mean, they, they took it to me and they threw me down a big flight of steps. And I remember they screamed for me to get out of here. Cause we were in this like little party complex thing, right? Get out of here. And I remember thinking, this is it. That's all you're going to do to me? We're done? You know? I was like, yeah, yeah, I mean, I was a little bit of blood, a little bit of, you know, hard time breathing, my ribs hurt a little bit, but, and I remember all the damage I had done to people in that movement, and this was like their final goodbye to me, I was kind of, and it was all the AC, AC skins, they all jumped on top of me, AC boys and all that stuff. So, anyway. On the, on the note now is the one thing I, I only really talk to people that were in the movement who are now in recovery. And I don't mean just, I mean, recovery from alcoholism and all that. They're the ones that I still keep me because. Look, once you start to get into that realm of trying to stay and get sober you most likely will get rid of some of your racist beliefs because you see other men of other race and other women of other races getting sober with the help of God and they got to be like, all right, I'm not that special, you know? So those are the only ones that I kind of keep in my life to this day. Even though sometimes some of them are still kind of lean to the right on some things, I know that there's a little bit less of an edge so that I can talk with them. But for the most part like Jamie was saying, I do keep, anyone that keeps those beliefs, I don't want in my life or around me at all. It's a negative. Negative vibe. So anyhow, I just keep them away from me if they're not trying to live away for recovery. So,

audiosamantha31288999687 24:29

No, that's awesome. That's extremely fucking dark. And I feel like that's part of, but that's part of our, all of us. I remember the same thing. You know, the whole, you leave, we're going to make sure it's in a body bag kind of thing. And it is really weird that I feel like all four of us in our own ways have Made peace with death in the kind of this is the worst thing I'm ever gonna do, and they might not want me to live through it, and I think we're all really lucky to be where we are, and to have been here for as long as we are and that,

Lauren 24:58

that's what I've been thinking the last couple minutes. I'm like, okay, either there's, there's a higher power somewhere, or I just have a horseshoe up my butt, because frankly, I'm quite lucky to be alive, too. And actually, Frank both my mom and I have read your book before, and both of us remember that part where you were jumped at that funeral or whatever. My mom's wait a second, didn't something like that happen to you? Because this is right in the middle of when we were writing our manuscript. So. For me, actually, it was, like, right in the middle of my involvement, going from one group to another, so, from one rival group to another, who they fuckin hated. So, anyways shortened version of it, I ended up with a severe concussion skull partly cracked, and three months of physiotherapy following that. And then got addicted to painkillers, of course. So, it's that type of stuff can happen, but at the same time I still made it through, and it was four people against me who is half of most of their size. That's kind of a pussy move right there if I do say so. But what actually almost killed me was closer to the end of my involvement around 2012 when I had to go sober. I had liver cirrhosis from years of abusing alcohol and pills. So I'm just saying, a lot of the time people actually do it to themselves.

Frank 26:09

And one, and the one thing I always say is when people, because I, since my, not to plug my book,'cause I'm not, but since it says autobiography of recovering skinhead, people always go, oops. So will you relapse into being back into being a racist or being a skinhead? That's, you know, and it's a kind of a, you know. Whatever it is what it is. And I would say to them and I mean this is that it would take for me to have a major brain injury for me to go back thinking that because of the color of my skin, I'm better than any other human being is the most asinine thought process. That was the cornerstone of my whole life for so long. And so I always say, well, people always say, well, you might relapse. And I said, no, I don't slip up and say the N word. No, I don't do that. That's not my life today. But I said, if for me to ever do that again. would be I would have to have a major brain injury to not think I know what I know today. So,

Lauren 27:02

Well, and the other thing that I kind of take into account and tell people is would they want me back? Because I feel like all of us are way too much our own people now for them.

audiosamantha31288999687 27:10

Yeah, but, but they would. They would take any of us back. Are you kidding with me? The far right would be fucking thrilled for any of us who knows better to go back to the far right to be like, yeah, once you go right, you never go back, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Are you kidding with me? They would take any of us. They would.

Jamie 27:26

I think I think that's a valid point because sorry Lauren didn't mean to cut you off. I think it's not I think they would take it take some of us back because it'd be like well you know the inside now of the other side you've got the inside details of dealing with you know the law enforcement and anti racist organizations so you can feed us the shit and we can use that to fight against them so yeah I don't know I can see some people jumping on jumping on

audiosamantha31288999687 27:49

I can't tell you how many fucking emails I got from these weird dudes being like, you're an Aryan queen, you'll realize eventually that you need to do this for your people, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, my friends are my people I don't, I don't need this weird shit. I don't know. It was, it was bizarre to me. I really expected more threats, but I got more people telling me that I'll learn better eventually. And I was like, I, I was in it. I hung out with the people that get people to join and I saw through it. There's no going back.

Frank 28:18

so here's the, here's the funny thing is, is that I, there's so many of us that have gotten out of that movement and gotten into anti hate, into anti fascist movements. There's thousands, hundreds of us, right? There's no doubt about that. I know, you know, but I never met anyone that was Anti, like really anti racist or anti fascist who said, Oh, let me go become a Nazi. Like it only, we only switch to one way. There is no switching from the other way. I don't know anyone personally that was antifa or anti racist in their being and thing that finally goes you know what? Those guys are right. It never happens. It's only the other way. Isn't that crazy? You

audiosamantha31288999687 29:02

Yeah. And I, I

Lauren 29:03

sorry, just quick I feel once your empathy's out there, it's out there. There isn't turning back.

Frank 29:08

once I've relearned empathy, I can't go back now, right? Because now I'm like, Oh, this world isn't about me. It's not about me anymore. And that was, you know, the movement is about ego. It's ego driven. It's an ego driven movement. And once I'm like, Oh, you know, once I've realized wait a minute, the world's how dare you hurt my feelings. The world's not about me. Are you kidding me? That is when I was like, I can never go back to that. And so again, it goes back to there's the major switch one way, but there's never been really that I know of. Maybe I'm wrong somewhere. Maybe there's one guy who maybe had a brain injury. I don't know, went from an anti fascist, anti racist and went over to their side. It just doesn't happen. It only goes the other way because we do, as you just said, we relearned our empathy and we're like, wait a minute, that's life. And so.

audiosamantha31288999687 29:56

I myself was a, you know, vaguely leftist and all that stuff. And I joined to try it on. I was trying to impress a boyfriend that I was with, got in over my fucking head. But I've never met anyone that was in there, Because we all came like around when Trump had, had won and there was very much this oh, it feels like the left is losing, the far right is so confident, like, Why not hitch a wagon to the winner's parade? And we very quickly, I think we all learned that that was not the case. And I, I think people try it on, people try to see it because it's becoming more mainstream, but I think if you, exactly what you said, Frank if you truly are someone that does care about a single other person that doesn't look exactly like you, you can't stay in that movement. It's, it's just completely unreasonable. I do want to get to these categories though What is the most accurate portrayal of the far right in this movie or of your experience or what did you most closely relate to? I know we've all talked about the, the dining room scene but what else was there anything else in here where you kind of couldn't help but feel yourself in that, in that moment?

Lauren 31:02

For me, actually, it was a scene in jail when the Aryan Brotherhood guys were doing drug deals with everybody else, because I remember that type of shit when I was homeless and on the streets. Nobody actually behaves in line with what they claim to believe.

Jamie 31:16

For me, it was the, the older figure. I can't remember his name, but, you know, getting the kid getting Derek or Vinland, whatever his name was, you know, to commit crimes or whatnot. You know, the creepy older guy you know, grooming the kids to, to commit crimes or, and I was thinking back to you know, getting you to go out there and leaflet and flyer and Oh, I'm not going to do it, but here's a stack of folders or flyers. Go pace the neighborhood, because, you know, it can't be attached to me, but you guys can do it. So I was thinking, watching again just the manipulation of kids and the youth that this older generation, this older creepy generation is doing to these kids. And it still exists,

audiosamantha31288999687 31:55

that's what I kept thinking about, was the podcast hosts that are alive now, or working in the movement now, and I mean, how many manifestos have credited or, you know, or any of these guys, and they all get to say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, we're just, you know, they know what they're doing, and they know how to get through that facade of, Oh, this was just in fact, this was just exuberation. This is just exaggeration. And it's no, you know exactly what you're doing. And you know that there's someone out there that is waiting for you to say the right combination of words for them to like, unload that AR 15 on a bunch of innocent people. But what about you, Frank? What did you relate to about this

Frank 32:34

So, the the heavier set friend, the one that's always like screaming and sig

audiosamantha31288999687 32:39

Ethan Subley? Yeah.

Frank 32:42

had four or five guys in every group I've been around that was that guy. That was the one, I was like, that's my friend Chris, that's John, that's so and so from AC, I'm like, I know that guy. You know, so that was always the funny one. It was that guy always was like, I know that guy. And then what Jamie was just talking about too, was the, the and you were just the, the older guys, you know, who, again, you know, running with some of the groups that I ran with, you know, who, you know, the Midwest bandits who were robbing banks, you know what I mean? Those guys, there was always these guys who always like, you just need to do this. And so I remember. You know, listening to that. And then also what Arnold saying about the the drug dealing, right? We weren't allowed to do you know, we weren't allowed to do drugs because again, we were, you know, kidnapping people and robbing banks and And if we even knew you smoked weed you would be done. There was a couple of guys I know that would sneak off and go trip acid once in a while, but we were, you know, we were pretty strict on that part, but those older guys telling me what to do and me thinking, Ooh, I want to be part of this was a major, major deal for me. Cause again, I have father issues that all the issues we talk about, I had them all and here, these guys were being like, dad's to me, but they're telling me to go, you know, go into the hood affiliate and sell guns. And so I always be like, yeah. I'll do whatever you say, and it's craziness,

audiosamantha31288999687 34:04

Did it, did it happen for you guys too? I had noticed that in the movement, there were a lot of people that if you knew the right person, if you did the right thing, you could be the next leader. You're the next. This or that, like everyone I knew was the reincarnation of Hitler or Goebbels or, or one of them and, and the person they followed was like, I need to do whatever they say, but also I'm going to put them against the wall as soon as we take over, or I'm going to do X, Y, or Z there was always backstabbing in it. There was never a leader that felt safe in the movement.

Frank 34:34

I didn't, I, for whatever reason, I didn't, I never fully trusted anybody and just the way I was brought up and, you know, There are definitely men that I looked up to, and I kind of took on some characteristics that they had that made them look like a leader to me, and I would try to implement those in my life you know, I don't know what, what it is about me, but I always had that, that coach leadership skill, I don't know why, I don't know how, just one of those gifts from God, you know, and you can use it either good or bad So I never was and, and here's the other thing. If I thought you were an asshole, me and my crew would always think, well, we're just going to make a bigger crew than yours. And that's how we did it. You know what I mean? And I was like, I'm just going to make a bigger crew than yours. Fuck your crew. And, and that's what we did. My arrogance and my ego and you know, if you hurt me, I lash out. And so I always was just doing that all the time, you know, everywhere we went, and we'd always be like, fuck you guys. And we're just gonna make you make a bigger movement over here. And that's what we would do. So,

audiosamantha31288999687 35:30

Love it. Love the ambition

Lauren 35:32

I feel like instead of calling this the movement, we should just call it the Dick Measuring Contest. Cause I've literally said that before during my public speaking engagements. And actually, Frank, it's interesting that you mentioned the trust issues because everybody does come out of this movement with those. But at the same time, I also remember a conversation with my former therapist about this. And he's well, did you ever think maybe your intuition was talking at the time? Cause these don't sound like people you should trust.

audiosamantha31288999687 35:56

Oh, yeah. That's, yeah, you learn to ignore it because you're always just doing what you're told or what the other, what the leader says you're supposed to do and it fucking sucks. What was the most inaccurate? Oh, come on,

Jamie 36:09

I was just saying that's an interesting outlook. Please, that was all.

audiosamantha31288999687 36:12

Oh, okay. Well, thank you. I was just going to say Was there anything in the movie where you're like, that's, that's Hollywood bullshit. That's just them saying this to scare people off. like for me personally, the, the curb stomping scene only because I did not get involved in the malicious stuff. Like I've heard about them. I knew about it. They would tell stories, but I never

Frank 36:34

so the curb stomping scene is, is real just so you know, Yeah, no, no, no, no. It was in Allentown. I'll never forget it. Well, they came down to fight us one night and the guy was already knocked out. So it wasn't like we made him do it. And I'd seen other friends do it to people. And so, yeah, that's, so just so you know, that, that, that did happen. I, and it wasn't curb, it was a parking block in a, in a parking lot. So it was just a night. Parking block thing that that happened that happened. the part that always got me with the movie with the change is that they make the change too quick and I think there should have been some more heartfelt moments. I know there was a little bit of back and forth and but There was definitely more of a spiritual change in there that that happened that I, so the, that change was always too fast. Like he's yo, I don't want to deal with my Aryans because they deal drugs with the Blacks and Latinos, so let me start talking to this Black dude. Like it just kind of contradicts itself a little bit. And that was my only, but crazy shit happens in life. So that could have happened and it did happen in a way, but it wasn't like that for me. So, but it was always that, that change right there where he's I don't like those guys cause they're not, they're hurting the white race by doing this. So let me start talking to this black guy. That was my only, Part of it, because there was more spirituality, there was more of a gut wrenching fucking check that made it happen for me. And I'm sure that maybe for all y'all, I can't speak for your stories, but it was more of a gut wrenching, harder check than just, Oh, let me stop talking to these guys, let me talk to this guy. So that was my only part.

Lauren 38:04

Yeah, I wish they wouldn't show it where it was like an overnight sort of change or like that quickly because for me it took me three years to fully leave, like 2012 was the year where I had all the wake up calls and shit, and then the next three years was me kind of slowly fading off. So, to me that needs to be done for the purposes of safety, just because I know what happens if you try to leave abruptly like I did years prior. So yeah, I wish they would have shown like more of the process, but I also get that there's limited time in the movie. So there's that too.

audiosamantha31288999687 38:34

Also, though, I want to push back on the limited time in the movie because it's the same reason when, it's the same reason I really wanted to start this podcast and do all this stuff is because I got really fucking sick and tired of being like, yes, as a Nazi I see piled up parties, yes, as a Nazi I did this I got so tired of talking about what I did in the movement. And it was like giving people how to's of you know, when you start this fire, like here's the thinking process that gets you into that. I wanted to talk about how I left. I wanted to talk about how that, that's possible physically, like the, the moving that you have to do, the disappearing that you have to do all the time, that having your head on the swivel, not trusting people, but wanting them to trust you. And I just got so fucking sick of it that I, I agree. I think, Frank, you hit the nail on the head that there is some spiritual shift that happens, whether you believe in God or not. Your soul just fucking knows it's wrong and is just yeah, that's, that's it. I'm, I'm done with that. I'm gonna struggle. I'm gonna have bad days. I'm, you know, every once in a while, maybe I'll, you know, I don't know. But it's, there's, there's never a moment where you're like, it was better on that side, because it wasn't. It never was. who would you recommend this movie to? Is this for someone that wants to know what the movement is like? who was this movie for?

Lauren 39:47

Maybe someone who's a couple of years out, like it could help them reflect on some things. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to someone who's first getting in or who's being introduced to it. And I say that because I remember meeting a couple of guys at the time of my involvement where they actually said AHX had helped them like come into the movement, like it inspired them.

Jamie 40:07

I'd say a few years later for myself, looking, because I haven't, I think I watched it a week ago, but I haven't seen it since, you know, 20 years. So seeing it now in a different frame, mindset. You know, it's made me reflect on the mistakes I've made and, you know, where I need to go in my own journey and, you know, how I can help other people get away from that. So I appreciate it much more now than I did then. So I think, yeah, yeah, you need to, you need to step away for a few years to watch it and then reflect on your own, your own journey and then pull pieces from it. And if it connects, it does. And if it doesn't, it doesn't, but I think it's worthwhile.

Frank 40:47

Yeah, I think, I take it that this movie should be shown to anybody. And the fact that, because you hear it all the time, people don't change, people don't change, lepers never change their spots, blah blah blah, and it's so not true. We're all a testimony to that's not fucking true at all. There's, and sorry I always go back to it, but it's my stronghold, look at the rooms for recovery. You know, there's millions of people to change their whole entire lives who were, and I can speak for the biggest fucking scumbags in the world who ripped off from their families to stay high, to do, and now they live these beautiful spiritual lives. So when I show people or ever talk about the movie, I always say people can really change no matter if it was quick, it was fast, it was long, it was that people really have the ability to change. And so I, I, you know, there's a bunch of rabbis that I'm good friends with who, who liked the movie because of it. And that's one of the things that we people really can change. And just to get, you know, it's one of those things, even though at the end, you know, the kid gets blown away in the bathroom and it shows racism is continuous on, continues on, you know, which is real, which is real, you know, there's no miracle thing here is shit's going to go on. you know, the whole country is changing, you know, that's what I try to tell people all the time do you know that in just 100 years from now the most dominant race in America is going to be the mixed race American. That's, it's too late, right? Like they always do the as we all believe in the replacement theory. I mean, that was one of my major fucking talking points that the Jews were going to replace us. And here it's just naturally happening. It's just naturally

audiosamantha31288999687 42:22

Yeah. No one planned for it. It just.

Frank 42:24

Yeah, because in our rhetoric, right? My rhetoric was someday what the blacks were going to catch up to the whites and so were the Latinos and then they were going to retaliate. But what we all forget, I forgot, I can't speak for you. What I forgot was that in these numbers that love comes into play and we all start to mingle and match and we're becoming one fucking tribe. That's inevitable. In 300 years, we're all going to be one tribe, y'all. Right? Not only does people change, but this country's fucking changing, and it's going to change. The Jews aren't replacing us, the Democrats ain't replacing us, it's just fucking natural. we're just gonna keep changing and molding, and that's what's going to happen in this country. Wait until you see who your grandkids bring home. Wait until you see who your great grandchildren bring home. Are you gonna be that fucking racist guy, that your grandkids and children and great grandchildren have to hide their love because of your hate? Are you gonna be that guy? Cause we have those guys now. And you know what? They're not fucking happy. So don't be that guy. And that's

audiosamantha31288999687 43:28

Yeah. And those, those, those guys, their kids cut them off. We, like our younger generations, we're not, I'm not, I'm not tolerant of that. I don't broker time for people who, who do the whole like, well as long as you don't marry one of those, it's you're not the one fucking them. Like, why do you care so much

Lauren 43:47

This reminds me of when I got my DNA results. So, I used to just think that I was English, Scottish, and Italian. As it turns out, I'm actually like nine different things. So, I remember my initial thought at the time of getting my results was, Okay, there's nothing special about my ancestors apart from the fact that they like to fuck. They fucked across Europe, and that's it.

Frank 44:08

know, I found that I was Jewish. I mean, it was amazing. You know what I mean? I did a DNA test and found out I was fucking Jewish. And that was years after my change. It was, it's funny. That's one of the things where I was always been an activist and I was like, Oh, it's been that Jewish gene in me. That's always made me an activist. You know, it's funny thing.

Lauren 44:26

actually, Frank, that's funny, because one of my results, I'm part Middle Eastern, so, and actually, the timing of that result was literally perfect, because an ex of mine from the movement had tried reaching out at the time. All I had to do was send him a screenshot of my results, and you should have seen the freak out. I just put my feet up on the desk and watched it.

Frank 44:44

You know, I had a grandma, Elizabeth Zellman, was my great, great grandma. And it's all on my mom's side. It's like this amazing deal. I love it. I love it. Obviously, I love it. I now follow that, that path. So, but yeah.

audiosamantha31288999687 44:57

That's awesome. But yeah. the movie's a tough watch. It's, it's a tough watch for so many reasons and I think, I think Jamie, you bring up a good point and as you were saying it, I was formulating it that I think the movie's a good litmus test for someone leaving, where when you truly feel like, I need to be able to just take it for what it is, like this is someone's perspective, it's not an attack. And I think this movie is a really good movie that you could be like, this is actually just what it is. And you don't, there's no defending it. You don't have to defend it. You can just watch it and realize that people can change. And I think, I don't know if that's my takeaway from it.

Frank 45:34

I would say that the one thing that the movie is good for, and it's could be a signature to the movie, is that Not all neo Nazis just crawl out of a basement, that there's families, and there's loved ones, and there's love there for the brother, there's love for the mom, there's, there's, there's, we all come from somewhere. There's a real, every one of us, you know, and people like to look at neo Nazis, and they see these people, and they think, these fucking people came out of just a neo Nazi compound their whole life, and it's no, sometimes it has come from broken homes. And they, but they come from a home and there is something in there. We're all fucking redeemable. Like we're not all, I mean, I see the people now chanting and, and, you know, holding the swastika flags at Disney and all that shit and everyone's so, and I, and I still go. That was me. That was absolutely fucking me, man. And people probably looked at me the same way. And I think if they only knew what was going on. And I know a lot of people still don't care. They still just want to punch a Nazi in the face. And I get it. I fucking get it. But sometimes, man, there's a story behind the person. And almost every human being has a fucking story. They're just spiritually broken right now. We're seriously spiritually broken. And that's what I look at. And so that's what I hope people take from the movies, that we all come from somewhere. And not just a fucking basement dweller. You know, it's just not. There's things going on. That's what I would take away.

audiosamantha31288999687 47:02

Yeah, I have. Yeah, none of us came from a weird little Nazi Petri dish or something. I think that's a really great point to make. Thank you, Frank. That was really beautiful. Thank you guys for, for talking. I really enjoyed this and I hope that Frank, if you'd like to come back, maybe we can, we can talk about another movie that isn't so personal and we can just kind of drag it. But yeah, I'm gonna stop recording, but thank you guys so much for for chatting. This was great. I'll see you guys soon. Bye.

Jamie 47:30

Thanks everyone.

Frank 47:32

Hey, thank you all.