Frank

We welcome Frank, a former skinhead whose journey from hate to healing is both intense and inspiring. Raised in a tough environment in South Philadelphia, Frank was drawn into the skinhead movement at a young age. His transformation out of hate began while in prison, where he was exposed to diverse backgrounds and began questioning his racist beliefs. The turning point came after the Oklahoma City bombing, leading him to leave the movement and commit to anti-racism. Now an advocate for the Black Lives Matter movement and exploring his Jewish heritage, Frank shares his powerful story of redemption and his ongoing work to fight hate. Tune in to hear how his past has shaped his mission to create a more inclusive world.

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Transcript

Samantha 0:10

You're listening to season three, episode one of The Daily Former. This season, we're interviewing formers themselves, letting them tell their stories on their terms and asking questions that we get from our friends in the discord, people writing in, and just things we want to know in general about other formers. Today we have Frank He has been an inspiration to tons of people. Frank, welcome. Thank you for coming on. How are you?

Frank 0:30

I'm doing amazing. too blessed to be stressed.

Samantha 0:33

also with me, I have Jamie. Jamie, how are you?

Jamie 0:36

I'm good, thank you. Nice to see you again, Frank.

Frank 0:39

Good to see you again.

Samantha 0:40

I feel like you have a pretty storied and public life, before we really start, I do wanna ask you, like, Has any media accurately portrayed your life has anyone ever published something and you're like, you know what? They got everything right. I feel comfortable with that.

Frank 0:57

but they all did the best that they could with what they were given or what they came into the interview looking to get.

Jamie 1:04

Have you ever gone back and sort of corrected them on issues

Frank 1:07

I did, there was a paper in Pennsylvania one time that wrote a story and they said things that were so blatantly false that like the reasons why I got out of being a neo Nazi was because the antique dealer who I dealt with died. And that changed my life. Like the guy just made shit up. then I, you know, I went to prison for killing people. I mean, Phrasey stuff that was not true at all. So I mean, and those guys I went back and they did a retraction and, you know, it was a big fight though. So there have been a couple of times, but for the most part, man, I just, Yeah. You just gotta let human beings be human beings, you know, and keep my expectations low. expectations are just preset resentments. And so if I keep my expectations really low, then my resentments will be lower, you know, and I just, whenever, you know, God's got a plan, we'll just do that. So yeah.

Samantha 2:00

All right, well then let's see how this one goes. talk us through your childhood, you know, what were your parents like? what are the things that we need to know about you? for your whole story to make sense and for us to kind of see what made you vulnerable to this kind of life

Frank 2:18

You know, I could just say shitty parenting is what led to all this, but I know that's not everyone's story, but let's go with this, you know, raised in a really tough part of Philly, my mom's neighborhood, my dad's neighborhood was worse. my mom got remarried to a man who did not want me around. He just didn't want me. And my mom finally gave into that when I was about 12 or 13. And they made me go move with my real dad. And my stepdad was super abusive. Hated my guts. Used to tell me he hated my guts. It was Well known And my mom was trying and she got knocked up by him. So she's pregnant. So she like wanted this new family to work and and I knew all this, I mean, I could feel it as a kid. It was pretty brutal. And so anyway, then I moved with My real dad up in Southwest, West Philly. And as many of you guys see, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, where he sings about West Philly, born and raised on, that's like the neighborhood I move into. So it's pretty rough, mostly all black, and I go to an all black school. My dad has a bar, like this little tavern, which, like I always like to say, it wasn't always sunny at that bar in Philly, where I grew up. But that year, it was a big transition year for me. I was 13 and I got changed in mid school year. I was kind of a punk rock skater, athlete kid. I was kind of very odd. You know, I was like totally in the punk rock skateboarding, cutting my hair differently than others did. And then I show up at this all black school in the middle of the school year. And I, Don't like try out for the baseball team and the baseball team was all black and had been all black for a couple of years. And here comes this new white kid who again, doesn't look the part and I make the team. I was like the reverse Jackie Robinson. I'm like, Everyone fucking hated me except for my coaches and a couple of my teammates who all thought I was pretty good and pretty cool, whatever. it was just not safe at my school a lot. The school was totally neglectful. Typical Philadelphia public school. You know, kids fall through the cracks all the time and it's just, you know, it was a crazy school. so I used to cut school all the time. I was like, done going to school. I'm just not going. And I used to take the train the opposite way. I used to take the trolley in the center city. Every day, instead of taking the trolley up to school, I had an option every day. It was like, if I stand on one side of the street, I go to center city. If I stand on the other side of the street, I go to my school. And I was like, every day, I was like, fuck it man, I'm going to go downtown. And I'd take my school tokens and get on the trolley and I'd go down and I used to sneak in Ben Franklin's house. And you know, Philadelphia's huge historical and, you know. Independence Hall and all that's there. And so, Ben Franklin's house is down there. It's a museum and I used to go down there and I used to sneak in there all the time. I would sit outside the back door and there was all these class trips going in and out. So there was always school trips of kids, the suburban kids, and they would come out the back door and I'd sneak in every time and every day or, you know, every couple of days I'd be down there and I got to learn all the exhibits about Ben Franklin. I mean, I could tell you. Everything about this guy, like all his inventions, his speeches to France to try to get them to join the war. But like, I just watched and went through this exhibit all the time. so finally the next year I go back to school and this is. I'm already becoming a neo nazi at the time, but anyway, I go back to school the following year And when i'm at that school my class trip one day they're like we're going to ben franklin's house for you know The historical visit so i'm telling all my friends in school bragging like dude, I sneak in that fucking place Wait until we go there i'm gonna tell you guys about everything and i'm gonna do this and we're gonna wait until I show you this And I keep bragging and I sneak in there. we pull up to the front door we all get out of the school bus Big sign right out front says free admissions. and then I was like, man, this place is stupid. Cause it's like, when I

Samantha 6:09

just walked in.

Frank 6:10

yeah, when I was stealing the knowledge, I was like, this is dope. I'm stealing this shit, but I went there to go and it was free, I was like, man, this sucks.

Samantha 6:19

Oh, first side question was Ben Franklin racist?

Frank 6:22

No, Ben Franklin was an abolitionist. He's one of our only founding fathers was a true abolitionist,

Samantha 6:29

How did you reconcile that? Were you just like, well, now that I can get this information for free, I've dismissed it. I'll become a skinhead instead.

Frank 6:36

It was something you had to research to find out. It wasn't out there brazenly that he was an abolitionist, but yeah.

Samantha 6:43

crazy.

Frank 6:44

He was one of the only founding fathers that was true to it and didn't believe in slavery. And how did I negotiate a lot of shit I had at the time? I don't know.

Jamie 6:53

yeah.

Frank 6:54

That summer though, after I leave that middle school, because it was a middle school I was going to, I didn't want to live in my dad's neighborhood, like I had just seen like a kid get shot, there's a bunch of craziness that goes on again, my dad's just a middle man drug dealer at a bar, so I never see my dad. I went up to the farm country up in Bucks County, up in the Lancaster County, Pennsylvania area. my cousin was up there and I love my cousin. I always looked up to him. I was 13. He was 15. And when I got up there to his house, man, is when the first time I ever started this, well, I'd already seen the skinhead stuff from when I was a punk rock kid on South street in Philly, which was a big punk rock street. I used to see the skinheads around and I didn't know all the political views because actually there was a lot of sharp back then in Philly so I would see like black skin heads and I just thought it to me at the time I just thought it was like a punk rocky thing and then I had seen some Nazism shit about it but it never fazed me so that summer I go up and my cousin Comes home from wherever he was and he was shaved bald and flight jacket and the summer before he was totally punk rock, right? So now he looks different. He looks more clean cut. He looks more put together. He wasn't as wild. And at the time there was the Geraldo fight. So that was a big thing. That was a really big thing because we watched that over and over that whole summer

Samantha 8:11

our younger listeners or just for the new listeners, can you give a brief description of what the Geraldo fight was?

Frank 8:18

Yeah, so there was a fight on a subway. This is what started the show. There was a fight on a subway between this New Yorker guy and his family. And a bunch of neo nazi skinheads. They were all from Philly. Two brothers, they were part of the band And they were all a Philly band. So anyway, they happened to be up in New York one day. Started a fight. Beat the crap out of this guy. And so then the media started paying attention. So then Geraldo, who we all see today is a, I think he's still a Fox news commentator. He had his own talk show, And he invited these neo Nazis on and he brought a guys from all over in the nation. he brings them on the show. And they brought some sharps on, some anti racist guys, and then they brought some other people on, and they started arguing on the show, and then a big brawl broke out. And Geraldo got his nose broken, one of the neo Nazis threw a chair, and that was like this huge deal. It was like the start of what Jerry Springer became. that show got so much publicity that other shows were like, We need this on our show to get publicity. So, that was kind of the start of that whole, we can get good ratings by having violence on our show.

Jamie 9:29

Do you think those shows fostered the movement, like sort of pushed the movement?

Frank 9:33

I absolutely. I mean, that, that show was a huge recruiting tool. And what was so funny is on the show, he's like, I want to shed light on this. Cause you shed light on the cockroaches and they all scary away. Nah, man, it made us grow. And you know, at the time there was other big things that were coming out. And so it just kind of all helped us grow around the nation and connect more.

Samantha 9:55

When you first got in, how long were you in? Like, were you immediately in on the ideology or did it like take you time?

Frank 10:02

I was in, oh I was in, I was just got done fist fighting black kids and Puerto Rican kids every day, you know, I grew up in little neighborhoods that were, again, and I don't mean this to put this on the Irish, but a lot of the neighbors I was growing up were mainly Irish or Italian, and we were all racist towards the other neighborhoods, and the other neighborhoods were racist towards us. Like, we all did it to each other, right? so I already had that little, like, we're different. We're different and we shouldn't be mixing right is kind of what I thought, but there's also things that happen where, you know, I would hear things growing up where people would say, because there was no Jewish people in our neighborhood, that I knew of anyway, but like, if someone picked up a penny. So I'm big. Oh, you must be a Jew. Where if someone didn't give you the right change at the store. So I'm big, Oh, John, you know, Johnny show Johnny always Jews. Everybody's, you know, he's always doing people meaning like he'd ripped you off. Right. And I remember as a kid hearing that and not getting it, like, when, you know, what's that mean? So I remember I asked my uncle when I was about 10 years earlier before the neo Nazi stuff. But I remember asking my uncle, so man why is it funny? Whenever you say Johnny always tries to do you. And he said, well, Frank, Jews, see, the Jews are kind of notorious for money. And then he stopped himself and he goes, you'll get it when you're older. Like you don't get it now, but when you get older, you're going to get it. It's a good joke. So when I was at my first real Bible studies up in we were in Redding, Pennsylvania and it was big. Big Bible study meeting I got to go. So I finally joined it and got in and I remember this guy She was talking about Zog, Zionist Occupational Government, and how they secretly steal money from the Federal Reserve And they do this and that and I remember being in that meeting going. Oh This is what my uncle was talking about I must be older and I want to know what the adults know The adults left me to fucking fend for myself. I want to know what they know I'm, this is on, like I'm being, the real true secrets of the world are being unlocked to me right now. Like, I'm down. I'm so down. Plus, I've seen the way that people feared them, you know, and that's, you gotta remember, no matter how tough I want to be at 14, really getting deep into this stuff, I'm still a fearful little kid. I mean, I feared my parents, I feared my school, I feared if I was going to have enough fucking food to eat some days. Now, like, people fear me? Fuck yeah.

Jamie 12:34

that's a switch.

Frank 12:36

I'm making everyone else the fucking victim.

Jamie 12:38

So it kind of had like an emotional play on your psyche. taking you from powerless to powerful.

Frank 12:42

Yeah.

Jamie 12:43

Was there an exciting like aspect to it also? Like you mentioned the fighting, but was there anything else that was like sort of riveting when,

Frank 12:51

man, you know, when you're a 15 year old kid and you're stealing guns and selling guns and And now again, just so everyone knows, like, I stopped going to school. I didn't go to school anymore. I just moved in with and all the, you know, the I'm like, this 15 year old thug kid from Philly. And I'm like living out in the sticks and the boondocks with people. I'm living in different compound houses. It was all exciting. I was getting shipped off to Baltimore. I was getting shipped back down to DC. I would come back up to the Philly. Then I would go over to fucking Atlantic city for a summer and just live with the guys from AC. most of the kids in my neighborhood were just fucking stealing cars and shit, you know, and I'm plotting race wars and talking about blowing up federal buildings and kidnapping people and holding people for ransom and fuck yeah, dude.

Jamie 13:48

When you look back now, do you feel like, you were exploited because you hear you have older men, older teens and whatnot, taking a child and sort of pushing them in a direction? Do you feel like you're exploited or groomed?

Frank 14:00

I wouldn't, I do in a little bit of a way, but like I wanted it. I don't wanna be groomed. but I wanted this thing. so it wasn't like I was, there were times, you know, where I would be at Bible studies and we would read the Bible. And I remember, and again, I was born and raised in all Irish Catholic neighborhood. I made all my sacraments. I'd been to catechism, I went to church on all the Christian high holidays, Christmas, Easter. You know, I did these things. But I remember going to these, and I always had a belief in a God be it a Christian God, whatever. And so when I joined this, you know, that was part of all these Christian groups. And we would go and read the Bible and they would say, some of you guys probably heard the story where, it's Adam and Eve and the serpent comes to Eve and the serpent and doesn't, he doesn't get hurted. Partake of a piece of fruit, he gets to have sex with her, the serpent man from the devil, and he impregnates her with Cain, and Cain later on kills Abel, and Cain becomes the first evil Jew on the planet. I remember being like, yo, Father Wassil never taught, Sister Mary Agnes never taught me this story out of the Bible. They would say, God chose you to know the truth now, Like that's again. And like I said, the movement always felt like it was unlocking more shit for me that the adults knew that what really made the world go around what made my life so fucking shitty. And now they're telling me these stories out of the Bible where I, again I don't know if it was a grooming way, but it was in a way that I was like, Cause as you guys know, I don't think there was a step by step. They're not that intelligent. There was a step by step way of like, we give them a little bit of this. Like, it's just the way it happens for me, like a little bit more and more would come to me and, you know, so fucking angry and, at our time, I think Jamie or what means. When I was recruiting guys back in the day, BET was a huge topic. Why do they give BET? Why don't we have white entertainment television? but I remember hearing these things and I felt them too, like, why did they get those things and I don't get those things, right? I mean, it was in there. I mean, I woke up and I thought about that shit. Why did they have, you know, the Negro college fund? Why don't we have the white college fund? Wake up and think about that shit all day long. And thank God back then we didn't have Fox news because that would just pounded more of it home because they talk about the same shit that is. Make it a little bit nicer, but it's that same thing, man, where I wake up and it was like, and so as I would start to recruit other men and other boys into this, I was pulling the bait and switch of what racism is. Here's what I get, man, a guy who come along, not shaved, not into the movement yet, but just kind of. You know, hated the black kids at school and he would say stuff like, why could they say black pride and I can't say white pride? And I say, exactly, man, exactly. Come join our group. That's what we're all about. Come to our next gathering. We'll be meeting on Friday night at the whatever, wherever park or whatever we were setting out at the time, whatever little zone we took over. But come man, come, that's what we're all about. We're all about our heritage. And then when you come to our meetings, We never talk about our heritage. We always talk about them. We always talk about what they're doing, how they're fucking shit up, how they're ruining our neighborhoods, how they're doing this. It's never like, Hey, we talk about John Smith. John Smith was the creator of this thing that really helped humanity. We don't talk about any of that shit. We talk about how everyone else is fucking our shit up.

Jamie 17:30

othering. It's never us. It's always them.

Frank 17:33

It's a bait and switch.

Jamie 17:34

It is.

Frank 17:34

your, I take your, you want to be proud of your heritage and I switched it and gave you back out the fucking hate and said, go hate them and you'll feel better about yourself. The ultimate bait and switch.

Jamie 17:45

That's really good. how long were you in the moving for?

Frank 17:48

Like seven years, six and a half years,

Jamie 17:50

So what was the disengagement process like?

Frank 17:53

You know, I'm running around the country and I got into a bunch of shit in Indiana. Then we went down to Alabama and I just got to use this because it's a reference of what was going on in my 16 year old life where I'm like down in Alabama at some, where they made that documentary foot soldier to race war with which I never even met He was arrested by the time I got down there, but whatever, still to this day, I've never met the fucking guy, but we go down to this thing. And then I came back up Indiana again and had met these other skinhead dudes from over in Springfield, Illinois. So I go over there and they were a lot younger, a lot more fun than the guys in the Indiana. The Indiana, it was a safe house we lived in. It was a, Of full on, like, stay hidden, stay high, don't let people know neo nazis are living here. But everyone was wanted by law that lived there, four out of the five men that lived there, I was wanted, and a couple other guys were wanted. Anyway, I get over to Springfield, Illinois, And I get arrested for, I beat up a shark at a mall one day and the police found out I had all these warrants for my arrest in Philly. And what happened was the Philly police called back to, to, to Illinois. And they said that they said that he's too far away, we're not going to extradite a juvenile for juvenile warrants. you know, you're four states away. So they dropped all the warrants on me. Which was like It was fraying, I was like, oh shit, because for the last two years I've been like kind of ducking and hiding because I've warranted my arrest and now I find out I have none. So I went and I got a TV show. I did my own cable access television show called The Reich in Springfield, Illinois at this Lincoln Land Community College. Because that was the big avenue back then, you know what I mean? It was cable access. was an hour of hate. which was on everyone's tv. And then we signed up for ourselves, so we had our own cable access show. Anyway, I tell you that because I'm living out there and there was this one sharp kid, one anti racist guy, and we kidnapped him right around Christmas, right around this time. And we kidnapped him and released him because no one would pay the ransom.

Samantha 19:56

That must have really fucked with that kid, no one's gonna try and free him.

Frank 20:01

Yeah, I think he knew he was fucked from the get go. Yeah. I'm actually friends with the guy now. I made an amends to him. Yeah. We're friends and we've hung out. I hung out in St. Louis with them. And so, yeah.

Jamie 20:14

So he's forgiving you for that.

Frank 20:16

What's that?

Jamie 20:16

He's forgiving you for that.

Frank 20:18

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Samantha 20:19

Does he still give you shit, like, if you don't show up or do something on time?

Frank 20:23

tell you that story now just because I don't want to lose. So I was in St. Louis doing a speech at George Washington University. I was doing a speech there and it was on St. Patrick's Day and I was starting to stay sober at the time. This is years and years ago. So there was a bar, it was St. Patrick's Day on the day I spoke, or the day before I spoke, so I go to this barcode called because I was trying to stay sober, So anyway, I go down there and drinking this O'Doul's and I look over and I was like, holy shit, that's him. And so I walk over to him, but I wasn't exactly sure, but I was pretty 99 percent sure it was him. So I walked around the bar and I went to him and I was like, yo, is your name did you used to be a, because he wasn't dressed as a skin anymore, just normal, you know, he didn't have any, anything, Doc Martens not knowing he is a normal, like, and so I was like, yo, did you used to be a sharp? And he like stopped and he looked at me I said and he still couldn't. And I said, Have you ever been kidnapped? And he just goes, Oh, my God. He was like, yo, he was like, what's up, man? Oh, my God. And he goes, I just seen you on MTV because I did MTV fight for your right to stop the violence movement show that they did. So I'd already changed and we'd been doing good work and the swastika was off my neck at the time. I used to have this big swazi right there and it was a laser started off. So I looked different. So I get that now because he was like, yo, what's up? And then he beat me to the punch. He goes, yo, dude, I'm so sorry I went to the cops about all this. And I was like, no, dude, because what I'm about to tell you happened is all because I went to prison, you know, so it was funny that he was like, yo, I'm so sorry with the cops about all that. And I was like, no, dude, I mean, I'm here to make an amends to you and I made an amends to him and said, how can I make it right. And he was like, nah, dude, this is cool. It's so good to see you. And then we were getting social media friends for a long time. So, so anyway, we kidnapped the guy and eventually they come and arrest me at the next taping of my TV show. That's where I got arrested at. It was the cameraman. The cameramen were all undercover cops. The one day I showed up to do the taping of my TV show because it was a big studio. It was a big studio with big cameras and all this shit. So anyway, What started happening was I went to prison, and you know, I'll keep it real with these guys I was in the hole for my first four months waiting trial in the county jail, which is a huge county jail, Sangamon County Jail. Yeah, they kept me in segregation because of my age. I was the youngest kid in there. I was just turning 17 at the time. They charged me as an adult and they put me in the hole to wait my trial. And I remember I was in there and praying a lot to God, you know, please God, kill all the guards and pop my door. And let me go home. If you're real, you'll do this shit. You'll, you know, kill all these guards and let me go home. And I'm reading religious books, you know, that type of stuff. I'll tell you the truth is one time I fasted. And when you always hear the joke, where do you find God at in the county jail? That's where everyone else finds him. Well, yeah, when you have a public defender, you fucking need God. Trust me, public defenders are rough, So, anyway, I was reading the Christian Bible, and I forget what part it was about, but I believe it was about John the Baptist was fasting and he was in prison. And it kind of, he cries out to God, basically, why are you forsaking me here? Why is Yeshua, why is Jesus not not claiming to know me at the time? And somewhere around those lines, this was a long time ago, but I knew the story was that he said he fasted. He fasted in prison and something happened. And I remember there's a part where it reads where it says you can fast, but you cannot brag or boast because if you brag or boast that you're fasting for God, then you've already received your reward. Everyone just knows you're not eating for God. Good for you. Right? So I was like, all right, I can't brag or boast or tell anybody that I'm going to fast. So I'm in the hole again, guys, I'm fucking insane. I'm 17 year old locked up for aggravated kidnapping. Full on neo nazi.

Samantha 24:36

Just not doing great in general.

Frank 24:38

when I talk to a lot of fucking guys that are in the movement now still, and I always go, is this what you expect? especially the ones that are like on probation or parole, and that's why their parole officers have sent them to me to come talk to me. Is this what you expected your life to do? Seven years ago, when you joined this shit, dude, is this what you expected? That everyone in your family doesn't want you around? You're fucking gotta be on parole right now. Is this what you expected? No.

Samantha 25:02

I was going to ask, when you were in the hole, did any of your guys come to see you? Did you get any actual support from the movement?

Frank 25:09

No. No, there in this county jail. when I was in the county jail, everybody in the case was ratting on each other now, you know, shit that goes down with other people. Everyone's like snitching on each other. Everyone's, getting their third defender and lawyers to come after me in the case. I mean, my lawyer is going after them in the case, just the criminal justice system.

Jamie 25:29

Oh, there's all this talk of brotherhood, but when the shit hits the fan, no

Frank 25:34

yeah.

Jamie 25:36

anyone listening. You may think they're your brothers, but they're fucking not.

Frank 25:41

Yeah. Oh, and they're also all trying to bang your girl in the backside,

Jamie 25:44

There's another one.

Frank 25:45

And the girls are doing the same

Samantha 25:46

Very true.

Frank 25:47

Yeah very true.

Samantha 25:49

Yeah, you were fasting.

Frank 25:50

So I fasted and for the weekend, it was a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, a three day fast I planned. And again, I'm praying to God while I'm fasting to myself going, yo, God, if you're a real man, by Monday, I want you to kill all the guards. I'm nuts. I was like, I want you to kill all the guards and I want you to pop my door and I want you to knock down the walls and let me go home. I went out of this shit. You know, you're, you go crazy when you're in a hole for that long. crazy in there.

Jamie 26:17

Yeah.

Frank 26:17

So anyway, the three days comes up and they keep bringing food to me and myself because at the cell I was at in the hole, they open up the little metal slot and then they slide your food through here and I just push the food right back out because I knew I was going to eat it because I was always so hungry. I was so hungry. I remember I would like to push this tray in and I pushed the tray right back out and then they'd say, Are you refusing to eat? And I just go, Yeah. And they say, why? And I go, I can't tell you, I can't tell you. So after three days of that, the head guy that runs the County jail, he's like the big Lieutenant, we called him the warden, but he was just like a Lieutenant of the Sheriff's department there. He pulls me out of my cell and he's like, why are you not eating? And this is the last day. This is like Sunday. I refuse to eat dinners. I'm just going to eat Monday anyway. He pulls me out of my cell and he's like, why are you not eating? And I was like, I can't tell you, but I felt like saying to him like, yo, dude, be prepared. Some shit's going down tomorrow. You better say goodbye to all your family cause shit's going down and I'm getting out of here. You know?

Samantha 27:12

God's gonna get you.

Frank 27:14

Yeah, so I just kept saying, I'm just not eating and he was like, are you trying to kill yourself? Are you on a hunger strike? Are you doing this? Are you doing that? And I'm like, no. And I just kept saying no. And he says, well, how about this, Mr. Mink? If you eat tomorrow, then we will put you in general population. I don't think you need to be in the cell block. I think you'll be okay in general population, you're an able bodied human being. You're not as crazy as a lot of the crazies that are in there, because there was another cell block of crazies. And he goes I'll let you go out to general population. So, anyway, I was like, you know what? I'll eat for you, Warden. Yeah, tomorrow I'll eat. Even though I already planned on eating, but I was making it like, yeah, for you, I'll do that. And so the next day my breakfast came and I think they might even gave me an extra tray. I was like so hungry. And so he came and got me and he says, all right, let's go out to General Pop. And I remember there was this moment, and I had two other moments like this in my life. There was a moment where I was like, Oh shit. God is real. he didn't give me what I wanted, but he gave me what I needed. Cause I was going crazy in there. And I'm, I, there was a moment as I was pushing my stuff out where I was like, Oh shit, he's real.

Samantha 28:29

Yeah.

Frank 28:30

again, not giving me what I want, because if you gave me what I want, the whole fucking world is in trouble. But he gave me what I needed. and I went out there and I met this kid named out in general population, which this a lot of people tied the movie to, but was this young black gangbanger kid in the county jail. A lot of us were keeping our gang affiliations down because we were all on trial for major stuff. So we weren't in there, throwing up gang sets or whatever. no, I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm just in here, I'm innocent. so we were all kind of cool with each other in the day room where we'd all play cards. taught me how to play cards. And there was this black dude who did Bible studies. He used to be like, cause I was always reading the Bible now, you know, and now I'm still trying to be a neo Nazi though. I don't think I'm changing. And this dude used to be like, yo, come to my Bible studies. And I started going, you know, is a really big guy. So I was kind of always like, sure, I'll be there. And then I wound up getting sentenced to three to five years upstate prison. It got on the big boy bus, went up to state prison. one of my first prisons I had to go to Was Menard where John Wayne Gacy was. So if you guys know the serial killer, the guy dressed like a clown and killed all the people in

Samantha 29:37

them. Yeah. The bodies

Frank 29:38

yeah, that was in the prison. I was at now I'm 17 years old. He killed 17 year olds. but I'm going to be honest by that time. and the way this movement works is by the time I knew I was getting upstate prison, I started getting letters from the upstate prison from people bringing kites back little jailhouse letters and giving them to me. And there were a couple of different. Prisons, there was a couple of different groups of Aryans that were like, yo, we know who you are. We know you're coming up. You're the dude with the TV show. We fucking love you, brother. We got your back. Once you get up here, don't worry about shit. Just keep your fucking mouth shut. That's all these letters would say. And there was like three different prisons of three different little groups of Aryans that had wrote me and said, yo, we got you. Now again, big swastika on the neck. See Kyle written on the back of my head, TV show. I know all the fucking literature. as you know, a lot of the Aryans in prison are dudes that get into prison and they're like, Fuck, I'm outnumbered. And they join a gang. I was one that was already down, you know? talked about race wars, talked about the Jews, You know, I didn't just I didn't just hate black people. I like, had fucking real shit. So when I went upstate, all the Aryans were like, we got you. And then when I went to Shawnee and all the other prisons, well, transfer me a couple of times. I knew like I was okay, which was another blessing. I think for my God is that I never had to worry about any of this stuff. You hear I'm a small. I never once thought. Oh my god. I'm gonna get raped Oh my god, this is gonna happen. All right, like I knew it was okay like everywhere I went it was kind of kind of amazing in a way that I'd have to go through that because I went to some tough ass prisons but when I got up there, I used to play sports a lot, and I know we're talking about how I got de radicalized, but like, I would get up there, and I would just hang out with again, highly motivated, highly can talk about the ins and outs of racism and how the blacks are doing this and the Jews are doing this, shit that most of these Aryan guys never heard of, you know, busting out biblical fucking shit on them So that when I would go play football sometimes with the black kids, because I was really good at football. And again, I grew up playing sports with mostly all black kids. So I had no fear in my heart. I would just go. I knew that the Aryans weren't good at football. They just weren't. There were a bunch of bikers from southern Illinois. But they don't know how to create old fucking football. don't know how to dribble a basketball. That's just not their deal.

Samantha 31:55

Different paths, help for different things.

Frank 31:58

so I would go play ball sometimes with the black kids. Some of them were the ones I came up in the county jail with, so I knew them. and I played basketball in the county jail too. some of those kids just became my friends because we were the same age. now what I remember what story was A crackhead tried to rob him and he stabbed the crackhead in the leg, because the guy was trying to rob him. got fucking 16 years.

Jamie 32:22

Wow.

Frank 32:23

17 years old.

Samantha 32:25

Oh my God.

Frank 32:26

Another kid just got another like seven year bit for just having crack cocaine on them. Now, I get drugs is a bad thing, but when we're just throwing young men away like that, and I remember being in there going, holy fuck, there's a difference, man. There's a fucking difference in our system. I see where this system. Yeah,

Jamie 32:48

Is that when the most started to sort of lift?

Frank 32:51

Yeah, I think what started the lift was the part where I was like black people got it so easy I used to really like they got it so easy. They got BET. Oh, yeah And I remember going these motherfuckers got it hard, man and so I was like, maybe I'm a little wrong I wasn't fully given in guys when I was in prison and even till the day I got released from prison I was like I'm still, this isn't American Street X. I ain't playing these, the night, then my boys and the neonat, you know, all the little white gangs that we had in there. They were my life. That was my lifeline. I still showered every night with them. I still went to chow every day with them. I still did my job for them. Whenever we needed to hit somebody, I mean, I still did all the shit we were supposed to do. Like that was my crew, my clique, my gang. I mean, at night we still always had our little get togethers and meetings at our certain cells. And you know, it was my life. I just happened to have these other dudes and a lot of the Aryans I was friends with in there, they had Durham little scam and. Things going on with black dudes, Latino dudes, like we just kind of, we're always networking out. So it wasn't like this, how dare you talk to black guys? we were running drugs with all the fucking black gangs.

Samantha 33:58

Did you ever think about that when you were in there and like, think you'd have to reconcile, wait a second, if we want to be a self sufficient heritage based group, like, why are we, doing things with other people. Like, I don't know. did you ever realize you were doing mental gymnastics?

Frank 34:15

Not

Samantha 34:15

really.

Frank 34:15

Because I knew that our common enemy was the guards. You know what I mean? they were pretty fucking brutal to us in there. just to give a great example we used to get the yeast to make our one, cause we were the big hunches of making wine and whiskey out of the hooch, you know what I mean? Like that was like one of our white boy, Aryan biker thing and all the yeast and sugar that we were getting from the black gangs and we were trading shit off equally, so it was like, no, that's just who we're getting shit from, unless there was a gang war, a race war, which I just come to a prison, you know, guys didn't know Sammy Rangel, right? You know, Sammy. So his book and my book, which we didn't even know each other when we wrote each other's books. He started a race war at Shawnee that I came and actually was part of the peace process to talk out of the gang. And we didn't know each other, nothing. We didn't know each other until we read each other's books. And I was like, yeah, we started this. oh shit, we ended this. then we looked up our prison times and it was right. We just missed each other in Shawnee.

Samantha 35:15

what a small world.

Frank 35:17

dude. we and him were walking up a mountain in Ireland together. And we were just talking, and he was telling me about his book, and I was telling him. And we just started putting some times and dates together. And then my prison number and his prison number are not too far off from each other. That wouldn't be out of the question. We would be in the same prison at the same time in Illinois. I was brought in as one of the peace people to help negotiate peace off of something he started, him and his crew at the time. so that's where we were.

Samantha 35:43

That's wild for the longest time. Sammy was actually the only Former that I had met in real life up until last year It was really crazy. He's got a thick neck He's fucking serious business.

Frank 35:56

yeah, me and Sam, We're still pretty tight.

Samantha 35:58

Haven't talked to him in a while.

Frank 35:59

as far as I know, living the country life. when I was getting released from prison, I was you know, man I'm. The black, Asian, Latino thing, we're all equal, we're kind of all screwed in the end, like, you know, if you're poor, we're kind of screwed this country isn't really made to pull us up, but kind of keep us down, that type of scenario, just in my head, so I was started to see things. Also, there was things where as I was starting to question some things, like I would see like a black dude in Philly, standing on a street corner selling food stamps. That was a big thing, a big business back in the day, you know, selling the booklet of food stamps, and you just stand on the street corner and go, 50 cents on a dollar, 50 cents on a dollar, that man you're selling food stamps. And I would drive by a guy like that and I'd be like, see man, and I'd be like, wait a minute. My mom has always sold her food stamps. I was like, why is it different from her? cause he's doing it louder on the street corner when my mom just happens to have like, good connections and just does it right out of her house? You know, so there was like little things like that but I was like, you know What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna still hate the jews man because I didn't run into many of them in prison beyond it. I don't remember running into any in prison I'm sure they were in there They probably didn't say anything because there was you know, gang full of muslims and gang full of nazis Probably not the best

Samantha 37:12

I'm sure having swastika tattoos made them really open to conversation with you.

Frank 37:17

so, that was my thing. Like, and I got to still be part of the movement because I moved from Illinois back to Philly where my crew in Philly was still gigantic at the time. You remember, I mean, not to make it like there are groups, my gang was the biggest, baddest Pennsylvania on record, Philly, Atlantic city we were fucking huge. all from Allentown to Redding, Pennsylvania to Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

Samantha 37:40

I actually, for what it's worth, I I moved out of Pittsburgh a couple years ago because there was such a high population there. it's still not looking good, dude.

Frank 37:49

mean, back then we had, all the neo Nazi bands. there was, all these bands coming up, and you had were gigantic there, and there was Anyway, so I moved back to Philly for that, and, you know, I came home My ego would tell me, you know, a little bit of a legend, you know, I kidnapped the guy and I'm coming out from prison and, you know, that's what I felt. anyway, I remember going and hanging out with all my neo Nazi guys up in Northeast Philly. We had a huge chunk of us up in Northeast Philly and I would go up there and hang out If I wanted to stick around, like whenever we talked about the Jews, I can really pitch in and be like, yeah, they're ripping off the Federal Reserve and they're, you know, but. I could tell you that when I would hear a new guy come along and he would say something about black people that was just, really stupid or really dumb or really ignorant or something that you could just tell, like, you had no life experience, and he'd be like, yeah, all black people are like this and I would just look at it, I didn't have the balls at the time that, in one of our little groups to be like, well, let me explain some of the fucking technicalities to why you're being wrong here

Samantha 38:52

here to race relations

Frank 38:53

I mean, come on. I mean, I would just kind of look at them in my head and I remember just thinking that sounds so fucking stupid. on top of that, I would go, oh, shit, you know what, when I was five years or, six years ago, I said the same shit. And I thought it sounded so brilliant when I said it, you know, I thought it was so cool and savvy and blah, blah, blah. And now look at him going sound dumb as a motherfucker right now.

Jamie 39:19

It's funny when we get to that point where you look at people and you're like, you're a fucking idiot. You have no grounding in what you're saying. You're repeating the most asinine, bare basic racist shit possible. Yet you think you're bringing something new to the table and you're smart and you're offering valuable ideas and opinions.

Samantha 39:38

that has been my challenge to white nationalists for a long time is if you can come up with a single new joke that's newer than the past 200 years, just a racist joke I will give you whatever it is that you want because I haven't heard one. I haven't heard one. It's wild.

Jamie 39:55

I think that's a good turning point, though, because that starts to make you think, is there any value in these opinions? Is there any value in what these people are saying? You know, you sort of step back in yourself and you're like, well, no that's wrong. That's, that person's completely off their rocker and they have no, there's no grounding in what they're saying. So I think that's a good sort of like disengagement process.

Frank 40:14

yeah, and you just hear things like well, that's but that's why all jobs are going to black people now Cuz we're affirmative action, you know, like that's not true Like, you know what? I mean? And when I said that shit before again, I this brilliant other 15 year olds ain't talking about, the NAACP like I am blah blah blah, you know, So when this was all happening, to hold onto this last hatred of Jews. And a buddy of mine says he can get me a job working at an antique show for another neo-Nazi guy. In fact he says, I can get you a job because I need work. I mean, I just got outta prison. I'm not making any money. I have, a swastika on my neck and skinhead written on my knuckles. When you go and fill out job applications and you gotta check that box that says I'm I'm a convicted fucking kidnapper. These ain't good people skills.

Samantha 41:01

ideal,

Frank 41:01

HR isn't like, oh yeah, this guy, he should be in management. He's fucking a flossticker. it's not what they're saying and not what they're doing. A buddy of mine said he can get me a job working at an antique show in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, carrying out antique furniture. And I said, I'll take the job. And my buddy goes, but the dude that owns the company is a Jew, he's still on the job. And I was like, yeah, man, fuck it, I don't gotta talk to this guy, do I? And he's like, nope. And I said, does he know about me? And my buddy, because again, he is a neo Nazi, he was like, yeah, he knows all about you, actually. And he said, I doesn't give a rat's ass what you believe, just don't break his furniture. So I showed up and I carried this man's furniture for a whole weekend, just shut my mouth and, you know, best I can shut my mouth. I know I got a big mouth at the end he came over to pay me and, you know, in my ignorant Transcribed Anti Semitic head at the time. I was like, oh, he's gonna Jew me. He's gonna Jew me. He's not gonna give me all the money I'm supposed to get it's like 300 bucks or something He's gonna try and tell me I don't deserve that because I made a lot of money in tips that we get a lot of money Because you get tips really well when you carry out antique furniture from a show into people's cars and strap it down for them You know people tip you very nicely if you do a good job Well, I don't know He paid me all my money. And I just remember thinking it because I'm so ignorant. this is something we all do. I will plan an argument with somebody in my head and I'll sit there and think about it. And I've had to keep replaying. Well, if he says this, I'm going to say that he says this and it controls my whole day because I'm a sick alcoholic who loves resentment. So that whole day, I remember thinking like, if he's going to not pay me, then I'm going to come at him with this, and I'm going to say this to him, and da. And then I remember when he paid me all my money, I just remember thinking, you son of a bitch. So then he says, he goes, Hey, Frank, we were talking and Keith is very Jewish, very East Coast, Northern East Coast, Northeast Coast, you know, Hey, what do you do to my furniture, Frank? that type of guy. He gives me a ride back into Philly and starts telling me about how he grew up in the same neighborhood I did, but, know, 30 years earlier, and how there used to be a little Jewish pocket in my neighborhood, and where this one synagogue used to be, And then he, as he dropped me off, he goes, what do you do for a living? And I pointed to this swastika on my neck, and I said, man, I don't do shit. He said, why don't you come work for me? You're a really good worker. And I went and I worked for him. And again, his whole thing was, I don't care what you believe, just do a good job. And Keith was really a different type of man in my life. And again, this is God to me because God was like, Oh, you still want to hate the Jews? Here you go. Let me put the best fucking dude in the world in your life. Keep judging Frank. you're the asshole, Frank. you're the asshole. Not the world. And so I remember just driving with this man and I would still wear my Doc Martens, my red vases, swastika blazing every day in the truck because we used to drive in the truck together, me and him a lot. we talked about the O. J. Simpson murder trial was going on, so we'd bullshit about that. and you'll hear this a lot with, especially with people that come from where we came from. I might think I was some big, bad, tough, fucking brilliant guy. Deep down inside, man, I felt, I was a little inadequate. I felt it. And when I would make mistakes, I would real quickly be like, I'm so stupid. Why am I so stupid? But that's how I felt. You know, I could put it all out there that I was, This guy, that guy, like ego, but deep down inside, man, I felt like the way my parents treated me. So I remember saying that one day to Keith, that I was so stupid about something. I'm so sorry, Keith. And Keith just gripped me up in the first thing, cause I broke something. So he gripped me up and said, stop saying you're stupid. You fucking idiot. Clean up this up and let's get going. And then we get in this truck. And as we're driving, kind of a high pitching voice in a funny way, but the way he was just like You need to knock it off. you're really fucking smart You're a really smart guy and I hate when you say you're stupid And then he said these words to me that to this day has stuck with me. He said Frank Smart people can fake being dumb, but dumb people can't fake being smart. You just are get over it And I just remember, man, that was my day, man. I'm shaved bald in the truck with this dude, looking over at him, going, no way. I'm done, man. goes to drop me off, gives me all my money, didn't dock me for breaking the furniture, just gave me all my money. And I had to walk from Center City back to South Philly. At the time, I was still a very big alcoholic, so I got a 40 ounce. And as I was just walking home, I'm like, what am I doing? people keep coming into my life to keep saying like, you're fucking wrong, Frank. You're wrong. and who am I to judge, man? Like, I'm a fucking slimy fucking dude who was. Robbing people and, stealing and selling guns and kidnapping f ing people. what the f am I bringing to the table of society? And I'm gonna run around and judge everybody else? Because I would go do some marches sometimes in SIGCHI with some German marches or some f ing Klan rallies. Like, I'm so f ing representing the white race. Get the f out. And so I remember just walking home and going, what am I doing? And I felt like I was banging my head against the wall. And here's the other thing, and you guys get this too, is I got tired of being the guy who made exceptions all the time, right? I hate all black people except for John, Michael. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Samantha 46:17

they're one of the good ones. Yeah.

Frank 46:19

Because I know them. They're cool.

Samantha 46:21

it was like every person I knew was a good one. well, I just happened to be really good at picking people. And it's like, no, maybe there are just good people in the fucking world and you're the asshole.

Frank 46:31

It's

Jamie 46:32

out it's us.

Samantha 46:33

Yeah. As it turns out, we're the problem.

Frank 46:35

And it's Walmart racism, right? I walk around Walmart. And then when I get to the front counter. maybe some black woman who's getting loud with the cashier over something and you go, see, that's. But you forget about the six other black people you seen while you were shopping who were just doing them, being kind to me, but it's that one person that sticks in my head and I go, Oh yeah, they're all that way. And I just got tired of being that guy, making exceptions for my racism.

Samantha 47:03

I kind of always thought about that when it came to like, you know, my tenure as a racist asshole, I knew so many good people. I worked in restaurants. The kitchens are never white in a restaurant. Most of the back of house, the bar backs, all those people, there's no one white in any of that stuff, or rarely there is, and they were always good and helpful and efficient and smart and clever, and they were sending their family's money home. But God forbid, like one person would act up and it's like, Oh, see, they're the problem. It's always all of them. And it's like, are you fucking kidding with me?

Frank 47:31

That's good.

Samantha 47:33

So then when you made that realization of like, all right, fuck this, did you just go back to the apartment that you were crashing at or like

Frank 47:40

No, I won't. I'll never forget this walk. I walked back to my mom's. I was actually, again, I'm judging the world. I just got home from prison. I don't live in my mom's basement, but I'm going to judge the fucking world, right? So I remember just walking back to my mom's basement and there was a sense of Loneliness and fear, but there's also a sense of freedom, a sense of a lot of freedom in this, that I was going to stop identifying, I remember that was my thing, I was like, if anyone asked me, because everyone knew me, my neighborhood is Frank, the neo Nazi, crazy racist guy, right? what people always talk to me about my neighborhood was I just got him from prison. I was a neo Nazi as racist. I had 1000 racist jokes. I. had reasons to stand on what I stood for, right? All this shit. but everyone kind of knew me for it. And I just remember going and being like, if people bring that shit to me, this whole walk home, I was like, if people start saying like, Oh, that's Frank, the neo Nazi, I'm going to correct them and say, I'm not no more and how am I going to do that? How am I going to like, be able to have that conversation with people? And they go, Oh, you know, Frank, you know, the end people are, you know, and I would always be like, yeah, they are. Right now, if people say that to me, I'm just going to say, I'm not talking about that anymore. I'm not a part of it anymore. so I was trying to make that adjustment in my life on this walk home. And when I got home, I took off my Doc Martens because my Doc's home, my red laces and ripped them off. And I put them in a paper bag and I shoved them up in the little rafters, the floorboards of the house. And I just shoved them up there you know, at the time that was big symbolic thing to me. I was like, I'm never going to wear them again. I don't know what I'm going to do with them, but I'm not wearing them again and I'm going to let my hair grow out. Now this is where, because again, I'm an alcoholic at the time, full blown alcohol guys. It was a huge part of who I was. I was known as the partier, the drinker, the drunks among drunks. So, my neighborhood's infested with drugs, white drugs, so it's not like the whole time I was in the movement, there was no drugs allowed at all. And I remember that I was like, Oh, Well, I get to do this shit now, you know what I mean? And so then I got pretty bad, I got into a habit. because again, it isn't because of leaving the racist movement that I became a drug addict. It was because there's something not right with me. There was a hole inside of me. And I kept always trying to fill it with something. I filled it with hate for a long time to give me purpose, give me meaning. It was in my fucking soul. And so then when I got out of the hate movement, I was like, what the fuck am I going to fill this with? And I started to fill it with drugs and with. womanizing. I was a fucking huge womanizer. and so I was just doing those bad behaviors now. But I wasn't hating anymore. And in that time sometimes I get sober for a minute and then I would get un sober for a minute. And during that time, my belief is that God kept pointing, then the Oklahoma city bombing happened. And at the time of Oklahoma city bombing, I remember I was just smoking weed. It was like my only thing I was doing, I like stopped doing everything else for a minute. I remember I was sitting with all my boys in South Philly in a house, normal fucking South Philly guys, friends. I grew up with one school it went to church with as a kid, and they were all sitting around smoking a blunt and sitting there smoking a blunt with them and I see the Oklahoma City bombing and before anyone could say who it was, and I talk about this a lot in my book, man, I knew in my heart of hearts, and I said to all the guys as we were sitting there smoking a blunt, I said, yo, man, I might know who did this. And all my friends were like, you know, whatever. Okay. You know, keep passing the fucking, stop talking and pass, you know? And I was going through all the people that I had sat in all the homes with, in all the safe houses with, who all we talked about was blowing up federal buildings. That was a huge fucking thing we talked about all the time. And the scary thing was, I know that when I was in the movement, and when I was in Indiana, if those guys would have came out and been like, Yo, Frank, here's a U Haul truck keys, we need you to drive it down to the federal building. I would have said yes. In a second, without thinking about it, without questioning it, fuck them, fuck the world. I would have drove that U Haul truck to a federal building without him thinking about it and thinking I was going to be some fucking martyr. And now I'm seeing it done and I'm seeing dead children everywhere and from the bomb. And I was like, holy shit, man. it was on

Samantha 51:53

you a question I was like three or four when the Oklahoma Civil Bonding happened. But I do remember it being discussed. And it was the same thing with Columbine and other things. The white supremacy from what I remember, maybe it's again because I was so young, that felt like it was kind of, you know, Brushed under the rug, right? Like it was just like there's this terrorist guy, but not like a he was a white supremacist. Was that covered a lot on the news or was the white supremacist aspect kind of erased from it?

Frank 52:21

No, it was more, it more went to the militias that it was more of a militia tie in and the militias that they were talking about were full of neo Nazis, those militias, the Michigan militia and the l. A. Holmes City down in Oklahoma, I mean, it was everywhere that this guy went, we just happened to be there. And I didn't know this until later on the guys that I had trained with and came around with the Midwest bandits, they were all Philly guys that was like one of my dear friends. was a good friend of mine. this is all going on before the Oklahoma City bombing. Why I was still in the movement. I was still hanging with those guys. They were going out. every couple months and robbing banks out in the midwest and then coming back and a lot of people tied them to the Oklahoma City bombing. I don't know, I can never say one hundred percent either way that they were not involved or they were involved. There's a little couple coincidences but I never knew of any connection between Timothy McVeigh and and and whatever the fucking yahoo's name was but we all came up together. so anyway that happened on a Thursday and by Monday, my guilt inside my stomach. They caught Timothy McVeigh. I was like, oh, I don't know that motherfucker. Thank God. I still went to the FBI and I was like, yo, here's who I am. Here's where I've been. Here's people I've hung with. I have nothing criminal on anybody. I just need them. To relieve myself'cause I feel like such a piece of shit right now. Those, the 19 dead children just kept killing me on my fucking soul. And I just wanted to go relieve myself of this. So I went to the FBI and then the FBI passed me over to the A DL who, as you know, we fucking hate the A DLI hated the A DL with a fucking passion. And they're like, here, a DL might wanna talk with you. And I remember, to me that was a little bit. Worse at the time, talking to the ADL than it was the FBI, just because I thought, you know, whatever, I don't want to get into it, and I went and I spoke with some people at the ADL, and they started saying, hey, would you come speak at schools for us? And I went up there and it was just me and just did me and was talking to kids about hate and about violence and how it made me feel and How I don't feel good about it anymore people were like, wow, you're really good at this i'm not trying to toot my own horn But people you speak, oh, you're really good at this And then I didn't want to be one of those guys that just sat around and went Hey, look at me. I used to do bad shit. Now I don't do bad shit anymore. So I went to the Philadelphia Flyers and I started Harmony Through Hockey, which is where I started working and getting funding for kids to play hockey. And I started coaching hockey. And I did that for years. All along the time, I'm starting to do interventions on people that are, you know, people are calling me and like, Hey, can you come talk to my kid? Hey, can you come talk to my uncle? Can you talk to my dad? And I would go and just. have conversations. And I started to try and get and stay sober, but that was only happening here and there. And that's kind of the stuff that in the end, man, was the real getter of me. It wasn't so much the hate, it was the hate for myself. Really trying to get sober and work a program in my life.

Jamie 55:23

That's awesome. That's really cool. You mentioned then when you got out of prison while you were living in your mom's basement, how was your relationship with your mom sort of prior to everything? And then sort of your disengagement process, like, did it shift? Like, was she really supportive?

Frank 55:40

Me getting out of the neo Nazi stuff.

Jamie 55:41

Well, how was your relationship prior to, when you were a neo Nazi, and then after

Frank 55:46

my relationship with my mom was, they'd always been touch and go, you know, my mom was also a drug addict and alcoholic, so, you know, it's not stability there. And she stayed married to that man who beat the shit out of me. So when I got home from prison, Sad, but most rewarding parts of my life is I got home from prison. My stepfather tried to start a fistfight with me. Now I'm home from prison. I'm a lot stockier. I'm not a child anymore. And I whooped his ass in front of everybody. And my mom was like, you got to go. You got to get out of here. my relationship with her was always touch and go. Up into her death. My stepfather wound up dying. Now I got out of the neo Nazis and I remember they wrote a big story about me in the Philadelphia Inquirer, and it was about how I was working for the Philadelphia Flyers. My mom, after that, became kind of proud of me. But then I had a couple of relapses and even though my mom was a hardcore drug addict, sometimes she would even be like, damn, Frank, you need to slow the fuck down. just the truth. but my mom eventually died of a fentanyl overdose. So, yeah, but

Samantha 56:51

really sorry. I

Frank 56:56

She died. We were diehard Eagles fan. I mean, I lived in the shadow of the stadium where the Eagles played. I mean, I literally grew up right down the street, like six blocks from there. And I played football four blocks from where the Eagles played football when I was a kid. When she died, the Eagles finally won the fucking Super Bowl. Yeah, so. Thank you, Thomasine.

Jamie 57:16

When you left did you keep in contact with any of the old guys, or was it just, like, We're done.

Frank 57:22

I cut ties with everybody and anybody the only people I would talk to, well, there was a guy named who was like my best friend in the movement. He's now passed on. At the end he would come down and hang out in South Philly with me when I was already out of the movement. he would just come down and chill with me. other than that, I only talk to people Who also left the movement, there's such a camaraderie there. back then there was such a camaraderie that, there was shit I could talk to them about that I couldn't talk to my South Philly friends. I don't have lifelong friends. I just couldn't bring up shit. They would not get it,

Jamie 57:55

are you single now? Are you dating anybody? Like, how's your relationship with people now?

Samantha 58:00

When you do date, do you feel compelled to tell people about your past, like, immediately or, like, what's your gauge on that? Cause I think that's something a lot of people ask a lot about, should I just tell people right up front? Do people have to earn that trust from me, et cetera, et cetera.

Frank 58:15

No, what I tell people right away is what my activism is today. I lead into telling people that I'm very much in the police reform and that there's a huge Right wing extremism in our policing and my job is to help expose that and help correct that when people finally go, well, why do you know so much about this? I go. Oh, because they were my friends that got into that. So, and then that usually will open up the door. But I mean, I'm I'm with a partner now have been for a while and it's amazing relationship. And the funny thing is that, when we started talking about put women's incarceration and the, you know, for people that don't know, and I hope people hear this, and I hope these don't edit this out, is that, you know, America is, has 30 percent of the world, over 30 percent of the world's women's prison population, but we're only 5 percent of the world's population. Like think of that fucking number. That's fucking insane. Like we're not okay. Like that's not okay. And that's really going on right now. You got places like Oklahoma, where the bottom of the rung in education, but the highest percentage of women incarceration in places like Oklahoma, it's not okay. So that's what me and her started talking about. and then that's when she was like, well, why are you so into this? And I said, oh, because I hope I help contribute in a small way to this. the thought of this is okay. I like to talk about my activism today when I start to, I don't right away go, yo, I was a neo Nazi because most people are like, okay. But if I'm like,

Samantha 59:54

thing to learn.

Jamie 59:55

Is that a way for you to sort of make amends? to take accountability for what you've done? Activism?

Frank 1:00:00

Absolutely. This is absolutely making amends. because my biggest stance, look, our mass incarceration system is out of control altogether. But I was a huge womanizer and I was a huge piece of shit when it came to that. So yeah, standing up for women now is a job for me. It's a job that I believe my God wants me to do, And it's also my duty, right? Tikkun olam is a major thing in Judaism, which means help fix the world.

Jamie 1:00:25

What about self forgiveness? What do you think about, self forgiveness?

Frank 1:00:29

Oh. You know what is an amazing part about self forgiveness is knowing that we all make mistakes, and to know that we're not perfect, and I can tell you, and this is how I live my life today, is that I was a huge piece of shit. And I know that people say, well, you were just sick and you were trying to get better. No, not this guy. I pretty much was a pretty shitty human being on this planet. And I know that God loved me now, now that I know the truth about that, truly the higher power truly loved me. So if he loved me at my shittiest, dirtiest, rottenest parts of my life, then I know he loves you. And I must treat you accordingly

Jamie 1:01:11

Do you think it's important for people to make amends?

Frank 1:01:14

to make an amends, absolutely Megan, see here's, cause there's two parts to that. one is that you can go around and ask for forgiveness all the time, but sometimes people get sick of that, right? Because when I was a drug addict alcoholic, every couple of months I'd go, I'm so sorry I did it again. When you go make an amends means you're trying to bring it back together, amend it together. And so when I go to make an amends, I'm asking someone, how can I make this right? How can I make it right? So that we're on the same level, same page with one another, right? Because when it's always the, oh, I'm sorry, then you're just looking for people to pat you on the head. But when I go, yo, I wronged you, and how can I make it right? And you'll hear people say sometimes they'll say, don't ever talk to me again. Sometimes they'll say go out and do something good for someone or whatever. And so within reason, again, you don't have to be a people pleaser here within reason. You'll say, I can do that for you. and having a living amends, right? Having a living amends, like I have a living amends with my children, because for years I would build up a big beautiful life for them, and then because of my drug addiction and my alcoholism in my brain, I burned everything down to the ground, Starting amazing hockey programs where we're winning national championships, burn that to the ground. Having radio shows on very popular radio networks, burn that to the ground. And that's what I would get a little bit of sober time, and then I burn it to the ground. A little bit of sober time, burn it to the ground. And so my kids seen that, and that hurt them. So now I make a living amends. I have five years sober

Samantha 1:02:52

It's a miracle.

Frank 1:02:54

yeah, five years sober.

Samantha 1:02:56

my dad is 10 years sober today. He's like 60. It was pretty tough. So it's incredible. I'm always so proud of anyone that can stay sober. It's amazing.

Frank 1:03:06

it's a family disease. I went through it with my family, with my parents, and we're blameless children come up through this disease. And it says in our literature, the big book of AA and parts of Narcotics Anonymous and all the 12, it says that we will make our children neurotic. When we live the life of a drug addict alcoholic,

Samantha 1:03:26

Correct. In fact, part of that with me growing up is I kind of learned not to trust and part of joining the movement that made all these promises of the one stop shop to be everything that I could ever want by just existing. I trusted them in the wrong way because I learned how to make excuses for men doing shitty things in my life. And I took such poor behavior because that's how I learned a man would love you. So I want to talk about trust. When I left, I was actually just talking to people about this. When you first leave, you want everyone to believe that you mean it. But like you don't really know how to prove it. So you want everyone to trust you, but you're not a trustworthy person, Like now with all this time and reflection and serenity and wisdom what does trust mean to you now?

Frank 1:04:14

I trust that today I can only do my best. I believe that for me, God will provide enough for me to be of service to people around me and let, Everything else fall on the line. I don't need to force people to believe anything anymore. when people might take this wrong, They think I'm saying I don't need to worry about what anyone thinks about me, but. I really don't, as long as today I wake up and go, how can I be of service to my higher power, to my God? How can I be of service today? And let God handle all the other shit, man. I don't need to worry about all the other stuff. I don't need to worry about if you trust me today through time and hopefully through my actions, you'll be able to say. Okay, I love, you know, this guy works a good deal or he lives a good life. cause the more I try to jam it down someone's throat, the more it doesn't work. You know, if I just go out and I do the next right thing, right. If I help another alcoholic or another drug addict or a person who struggles with racism today, if I go out and I just honestly go out and try to help them I just need to show them like I live a happy and joyous free life today. Everyone in my family and my life for the most part except for some of the older racist people and whatever in my families but I almost everyone in my life today wants me around. They want to have conversations with me. They want to bring their problems to me and talk to me because they know I'm not going to be like, well, I told you, you should have did this. I just go, Oh, well, when I went through that, here's what, here's what I did. And it worked for me, you know, I don't know if it'll work for you, but I know that these things worked for me, right? Like, and I'm also, I don't know if you guys noticed, but I'm pretty fucking funny. I'm a funny guy. So, What's really good is that say I'm working with a guy who's struggling, when I can make light of myself, not self deprecate, but tell them in a funny way like, yo, when a guy's like, my wife don't want me around anymore because I got caught drinking and driving with the kids in the car, I get to go, man, me too. I went through that too, man and here's what happened, and make fun of myself and be like, I know that fucking feeling, my guy, I know that feeling, and get a newcomer or get someone who's struggling in life to go, oh shit, there is somebody else do you ever have that moment where you have the, and I don't mean to take away from the women's me too movement, But When you're talking with someone and you get to go, Me too, man. there. And then when you hear that, your shoulders lighten up. Wait, you know what it's like to, you know, whatever, you know, you have the probation officer tomorrow and you know, you're going to drop dirty, man. I've been there.

Samantha 1:06:49

Yeah, and in the discord actually recently we had a couple join and they were talking about feeling really lonely and wanting community and just feeling kind of stuck and being able for everyone to just kind of share stories and be like yeah I went through that too or this was my version but that's how it felt I think In 12 steps, and I think in being a former and what we're doing at TDF, like, that's the whole point of it you're not going to be perfect. You're never going to be perfect, but you certainly don't have to be alone, I think that's really all we can do is just our best with each other.

Jamie 1:07:18

we need to hear each other's stories. We need to hear each other's backgrounds, where we've come from, where we're going, what we're doing. We need to rely on each other.

Frank 1:07:28

To get down in the mud with people, you know, to be in the mud with them and then at the end you go to the tunnel and you're holding the light at the end of the tunnel going, there is a way to feel better about yourself. There is a way that you're not going to wake up in the morning and think, where the fuck is my life? Why am I doing this? And why is everyone mad at me? And why am I fighting with my mom? And why am I fighting with my, my siblings? you have to go, dude, I'm not doing those things anymore. And I used to do them. Here's the light at the end of the tunnel. Come on with you, man. I do anything I ask. I don't want money. I don't want none of your shit. I just want you to talk to the next guy who's going through the mud. That's all. And watch how that works. Watch how that works.

Samantha 1:08:05

it's incredible. We've got, like, two more questions after this one. I do want to ask this. It's kind of a counterintuitive question, but is there anything in the movement that you did that you are proud of? Did you learn anything good about yourself that you were able to take out of it and be like, actually, I'm pretty good at this? Or was there anything that you did where you're like, you know what, if nothing else, I did do this thing.

Frank 1:08:27

two things, two things and the movement didn't do it. It just life did it, but I would happen to be in the movement One was Take it for what it's worth is that I, it really fostered that, for whatever reason, in the muck, I can become a leader. no matter wherever I went, whatever crew I was hanging with, somehow, I was the one speaking to the media. I was the one And I didn't plan it that way, like I just noticed it and I remember at the end going why am I always that guy? And then it was like, Oh, just because you're built that way. That's just the person that you are. You take on leadership or you people see you in the muck and they see that in the chaos of a brawl and the chaos of life happening, you're kind of the one that's like, Let's do this, you know, given direction. I don't know. And I also later on became a hockey coach for a long time. The movement is evil. I mean, it's a sin. I believe in hating other races and hating other people is a sin. So I don't think that nothing good comes from something that bad. But and then the other part was, that I wasn't doing drugs. I was only drinking. Like, I was just a drunk. I was a hardcore drunk, but I wasn't doing all the other people that I grew up with in my neighborhood by the time that they were 16, 17, were doing heroin and shooting up heroin and, you all the other really bad shit that goes on. And I had to 19 until I was 19 until I even tried any of that shit because the movement had me from 13 to 19. And I didn't do any heavy drugs, I didn't I smoked pot maybe once or twice and most of the time that was in prison. Because I just hung out with people that just drank. And that was our movement. And if you did drugs, we fuck you up. and so I wasn't so brain dead at 35 or 40, you know, because I had that little bit of that taxiway of that I wasn't fucking full.

Samantha 1:10:15

you

Frank 1:10:15

Yeah. So, that might be it, I would say.

Jamie 1:10:19

Is it, isn't weird to sort of have like a public record of your life, through media and newspapers?

Frank 1:10:24

Is it weird?

Jamie 1:10:25

Well, not weird, but like,

Frank 1:10:27

it's

Samantha 1:10:28

like, like, like you have from when you were in the movement leaving the movement right out of it through all of these years of public activism and all of that stuff like that must be something.

Frank 1:10:41

Yeah. No it is. And I I believe that God has allowed for that to happen in this, this welfare kid from Philly how my life has got to be, you know, Something that is talked about or seen the only way I think of it today, and I can only talk about today, is that I think about it that it's, I have a story so that people will listen to what I'm talking about now. Not that the story is so I can say, hey, look how fucking crazy I was, look how big, I was this, and I, it's just like, yeah, I did live this, and so people go, oh, their, perks their ears up, and then go, and now I'm all about this. See.

Samantha 1:11:16

a legitimacy.

Frank 1:11:18

Yeah, because the one thing is, especially with this world, the work that we all do is that, look, I used to do the interventions. I did them starting in 96. I was doing these things. And my life today, and please take this all with a grain of salt or however you want to take it. But I got tired. of doing interventions on people that say the N word. I can't fix stupid sometimes. You just can't. But what my life is about today is stopping the growth of mass incarceration, which, again, American policing has a very far right problem in their ranks all across this country. And so, let me stand up for what I believe is the truest solution. Racism that is hurting my fellow Americans who just happen to be of different color than me, who have been screaming for fucking years. Yo, we're being abused. Yo, we're being pulled out of our cars because our, we have a dim license plate light. So now they're pulling us out of our cars in front of our children. Like, listen to what we're saying. And it's all that right wing, far right wing extremism and that authoritarianism that's in our policing. That's the real problem today.

Samantha 1:12:32

Yeah, say what you want. You're going to get your ass kicked at some point.

Frank 1:12:35

Yeah. my real job today is that I listen to my fellow black activists who have been screaming, Yo, please listen to us and please echo our voices. Because they're not listening. They're not listening to us. So they ask for people like me, and I literally have been asked by my fellow black activists to be like, Frank, you're a good speaker. You know what the fuck you're talking about. Keep spreading this word. Keep telling them we, we want a different America today. And it starts with fucking policing.

Samantha 1:13:03

It It starts with white people realizing that this is a white people problem. It was created by white people. It's not something that black people should have to teach us or do that shit. Like,

Frank 1:13:13

Yeah.

Samantha 1:13:14

that's on us to fix.

Frank 1:13:15

Dismantling white supremacy isn't on black people. It's on us. It's on us to do and that's where the forgiveness and more of us are the cohesiveness happens is when we go, you're right. Let's go dismantle it. Let's go fix it and it doesn't have to be some crazy woke whatever people want to scream This is us going for the last hundred years Yo, you want to listen to dr Martin luther king when he's did the I have a dream speech only after he says the famous I have a dream He goes on for 15 minutes later and he starts talking about police brutality malcolm x james baldwin fred hampton Huey lewis, I mean, you know all them guys They all talked about police, but they're not fucking lying to us They're over policed. They ripped them out of fucking cars. There's 50, 000 traffic stops a day in America. And most of them are against poor people and black people. Just a fact, and our founding fathers, Ben Franklin, would be horrified at what we're doing and they would be right because those little tricks like that is what built mass incarceration, right? Because if we give the chance where they get, they pull black people out of their cars, they find any little thing to give them a crime, any little fucking thing to get them into the system, on the record, and then what happens? And maybe he drops a dirty UA, so now he's a bench warrant. Where someone doesn't go to show up to court on time on some little fucking stupid ticket they gave them, right?

Samantha 1:14:42

Or what about fucking people like Sandra Bland who just mysteriously after three fucking days are dead in their jail cells while they're waiting a standard traffic stop? Like, yeah I'm totally with you on that.

Frank 1:14:54

I want to point this out too, and I hope I'm not a cop hater. They're children of God, for one. need them. No, we need them. When there's a kidnapping, who the fuck do we call? Who comes and puts out the APB so we can find the person? If there's a bank robbery, what are we going to do? Are we going to go get the townspeople and go shoot it up outside the fucking bank? No! When there's a traffic accident and there's dead bodies and they cover the bodies with dead sheets, so we don't see it because it scars our fucking brain to see dead bodies, but the police cover the bodies so we don't see it? That's their fucking job. That's their job. And then we need to look at them and go, okay, but their job is not because we have a fourth amendment. And if you know, the bill of rights, and you look at the fourth amendment, you go, holy shit, they shouldn't be doing this shit to us. But this, because they do it to those people. So we don't care. Oh, they're just doing it to those people. Well, you know. Okay, and I want to add that I'll say this with you guys because you should get this look when I was a kid I was being abused and I told everybody around me Yo, I'm being abused and it got worse and no one listened and I fucking got sent home anyway And all this and nobody fucking listened to me and it drove me crazy And I became a fucking neo nazi. When a whole community has been telling us, we're being abused. Look, here's the Marx on us. Here's the George Floyd's. Here's the, Breonna Taylor's. name the fucking list.

Jamie 1:16:19

yeah.

Frank 1:16:20

And then we keep going, well, maybe you deserved it. Well, maybe you're blowing it out of proportion. when they're like, no, we're being fucking abused. That community is going to fucking go crazy. And that's what happens. Because we're not listening. And that's my job today. I don't give a fuck anymore. I don't. I'm done with that. Good for them. You want to see Kyle? Go see Kyle. I don't care. But let's fix the system that's really keeping us apart. And keeping us down. And it's that. So, that's who I am today, y'all.

Jamie 1:16:48

Okay. this has been so real and raw. Let me lighten it a little bit. Are you happy? Like, how are you in a good place?

Frank 1:16:54

And I mean this, I've lived the greatest life I've ever could ask for guys. I live two and a half blocks from a beach. I'm a Philadelphia welfare kid. And I get to pray every morning and I take an hour and a half walk every morning on the beach by my house. With my dogs and I just pray and the thing I get to say to God every day is these words, it's the word stay, S T A Y, and when I'm walking on the beach and S T A Y stands for stop thinking about yourself. And I just keep reminding myself, stop thinking about yourself. Just because Johnny didn't text you back yesterday doesn't mean he's an asshole and that he's plotting against you and that he might just be busy. You know, if someone didn't do something, I want it. It's not because they did it to me personally. And so I remind myself of that. And I'm, I'm with an amazing partner. I don't want to give out all the details, but you know, I'm very active in my recovery And I'm very active in my Judaism. I don't consider Judaism a religion. It's just a path it's an action I do mitzvahs to keep God at the forefront of my mind and I contribute to my community that it lives by Here with me, my Jewish community. But here's the thing, to keep my life happy, I don't just fit recovery in my life or fit Judaism in my life. I fit my life around recovery. I fit my life around Judaism, and I make sure that God is the center of my life. Real quick, I'll tell you the story. five years ago, guys, it was not that way. I was at the jumping off point in life again and I was doing all this great stuff and I was doing documentaries with Steven Spielberg and all shit about my ego. I was I was coaching hockey and I won 12 national championships with the hockey team I was taking all around the country. all the ego shit I found helped found nonprofit civil rights organization. You would think everything was going great, but I keep messing it up. And what happened was In 2014, my oldest son dies in a car accident. Then my mom dies of a fentanyl overdose. Then the best man at my wedding, my closest cousin, who I would say was like a brother, him and his older brother were like my brothers growing up, he kills himself. Then his older brother kills himself. me and my wife have some major issues. Thank you Hashem we're good friends today, but people were stepping out on things and We get a divorce and I lose the house, the wife, the kids Again, It's welfare kid living in Iowa with the white picket fence around the house with the dog and the kids and the hockey job and The beautiful wife all gone and I start drinking and using again And when I drink and use it is low bottom shit, dude, like I am low bottom. I'm one of them low bottom drunks where I fuck everything up and I

Samantha 1:19:41

mean, do you know what a low bottom is?

Jamie 1:19:43

No idea.

Samantha 1:19:44

So there are different I don't know if I, if you want to say my understanding of it is she had like high bottoms and low bottom. So a high bottom is like you reach your rock bottom. And so a high bottom is like, I lost a job that I had recently had. Cause I was putting on a low bottom is like, I've lost everything. I'm in prison. I might need to get a blood transfusion. My fucking life is fucking over.

Jamie 1:20:03

Okay.

Frank 1:20:03

So that's, yeah, yeah. No, that's, thank you. It's a great explanation of what it is. I yeah, man, like I go all out on the hard stuff. I wrote about it in my book, you know, and so that all happened to me again, and I lost it all. In that time, guys, I found out that I was Jewish I found out I was Jewish in 2014 and then in DNA backed that up, and I was, I loved it, I was like this huge civil rights activist for the longest time, and now the reason why that activism is so big in me because Judaism is all about activism. I don't know if you it just is It's a big activist path towards god is about activism. So I was like, oh It all started to make a little bit of sense now, but anyway so i'm getting his divorce. I start dating a woman in the midst of my divorce I'm losing it. I'm literally losing it guys. Anyway, just my life was at the end guys. So I'm driving home or driving from this girl I was dating, this Jewish girl I was dating. And I was going back over to my buddy's house where I was living during the divorce, waiting to get the divorce over with. So it was December 16th and I was driving home and I couldn't stop crying. Like I lost everything. I just lost everything it was that bad and as I was driving I was started crying and I couldn't See the road anymore My eyes were so welling up with tears and felt like I wanted to scream but the cry was stuck in my Throat, you know that thing you had I was like wanted to scream so bad So I pulled over the side of the road right in front of a church and I started screaming up to God I was like fucking kill me man I don't want to kill myself because my cousins just killed themselves and I know that feeling now and I remember like feeling the feeling I kept saying, wait, if this is the feeling they felt, I get why they killed themselves. This is horrible. Like, I mean, I was and I started screaming to God. I was like, please kill me, man. Please kill me right now. Like, I can't do this any longer.

Samantha 1:21:53

You ask God for a lot of really intense favors.

Frank 1:21:57

I do. So as I screamed up to him now, the girl I was dating called me on my cell phone and I picked it up in the car. And I'm like what? And she said, she's screaming, crying and she's like, let's get back to my house. My sister just killed herself in the midst of me screaming up to God to please kill me. This is what happened. And so I agreed. I said, okay, I'll come back to your house. And when I hung up the phone, this is my story. I don't care if anyone believes it, it doesn't matter, because I just listened. This voice came into my car and said, Get to California, I have work for you. That's all this voice said. It said, Get to California, I have work for you. They didn't say that. I just knew what it meant. Now, Get to California meant there was this old Jewish man here who used to always tell me that he would sponsor me. And he would help me get closer to God. And I knew that meant call that man. and I called that man and I said, I need for you to help me get sober and do this thing the way you do it. and I moved to L. A. so that he would work with me every day. And he still to this day works with me every day. like he said, I'm going to grab your hand and I'm going to walk you closer to God. And your job is to reach your hand back and walk other men closer to God. And because I do that, this work every day, I'm a grown ass man that calls another grown ass man at 8. 30 every morning. Yes, every morning. Because I have continuously burnt my life to the ground. I have five years of the greatest life I could ever live. And it's just going to be of service to others, not be a people pleaser. educating myself on my disease, educating myself on hate, educating myself on police reform so that I can be a maximum service to the rest of the people around me and just be of service, not a fucking no at all. Just be of service and God will take care of the rest. And I literally lived the greatest life you could ever live.

Jamie 1:23:48

That's incredible. Frank, this, so much for everything. This has been an amazing interview. I'm blown away. the last thing is there anything you'd like to plug or talk about or anything before we wrap it up?

Frank 1:24:02

I don't have anything to plug, man. No. Just you know what? How about this? Always record the police. That's what I would like for people to do. If you see a traffic stop, you see them just pull out your camera. You don't get in the getaway. You don't gotta argue with them. Just record them always record the police stay at a safe distance, but keep filming the police. All the time until things start to change.

Jamie 1:24:26

That is a great thing to end on.

Samantha 1:24:28

Well, thank you, Frank, so much for coming. Thank you, Jamie, for interviewing. This was so much fun and so interesting, and you're so humble, Frank.

Frank 1:24:37

tell you all about it.

Samantha 1:24:39

But it's like, you have this, storied life that's been covered in so many ways and, like, you just kind of make jokes about it, There's something very refreshing about someone who knows who they are. You're not trying to be anything but you and that is awesome. thank you so much for coming. I'm sure we'll talk soon. This was awesome. Thank you, Frank.

Frank 1:24:58

Thank you guys. See you guys. Have a great day.