Ask A Former- Episode 1

In this session, we answer the questions:

1. Do you still listen to the music you listened to in the movement?
2. Are there any clothes or visuals you wish you could still wear?
3. Is there anything you've noticed that makes people want to leave the movement?
4. Why won't "anti-whites" debate "pro-whites" publicly? 
5. Are you proud of anything you've done in the movement?

Have a question? Text us here, DM us on social, email us at 
thedailyformer@lifeafterhate.org, get in our discord: https://discord.gg/aBWVS6gggp

Stay curious, friends.

www.thedailyformer.com

Transcript

Samantha 0:11

Hey, this is ask a former around table discussion where you ask former's questions. We answer them and hopefully we all feel a little more connected. This series is accompanying our new column. Ask a former written by our friend and contributor of this show, Liz. Everyone give it up for Liz for being so thoughtful and cool. These questions are from social media, email, discord, and in person discussions. There's no question too small or superficial, and we hope you enjoy learning that formers are just people with varying degrees of good taste. So let's get started. first question, Just to warm us up a little. Do you still listen to music you listen to in the movement? Why or why not?

Brad 0:47

No, it's god awful.

Lauren 0:49

Yeah, for me, I don't because I played it for a couple years and like, I'm just over it.

Jamie 0:55

I'll listen to punk in a way, but not anything political, because I've listened to punk since I was like, 11. So,

Samantha 1:02

did you guys listen to stuff that wasn't like Nazi punk or black metal or

Lauren 1:08

Yeah, for me, I used to listen to a lot of mainstream death metal and actually still do. But this was always stuff where, like, I kind of kept it quiet, because I remember one of my favorite bands at the time was But the person who had initially brought me around that whole circle had called them, quote, communist, even though they aren't. So I kept a lot of that quiet at the time. But nowadays it's like, okay, well, I don't need to care. Who knows what I listen to?

Liz 1:32

I definitely do not listen to that music. I have to say I have checked out some of the contemporary stuff just, just to see what it was like. And it's, you know what, it's just so much more of the same, like different production values, sure. But same messaging, same kind of awful music. Just no, no, no, thank you.

Brad 1:57

Literally, I think I'd rather listen to, like, super religious folk music than any of that music. It just, or even, even just the didgeridoo on repeat, same thing. Like I would listen all day for the whole day rather than listening to One of those bands

Samantha 2:17

So, let me ask, other than you thinking that it's bad music, does it, does it like, activate a memory in you? Or does it, or like, shame, like a feeling? Or is it just one of those like, you just don't need it, you don't want to give it, like a, like a, like the time of day? What is it that makes you, hate it.

Lauren 2:36

For me, actually, I did try listening to it about a year or so after I had fully left everything, and it just left me with, like, this really kind of gross feeling almost, and I'm like, this sounds fucking dumb. Like, how could I have ever liked it in the first place?

Jamie 2:49

yeah, that and an embarrassment. Like, I'm embarrassed that I actually, like, sang along to these lyrics and thought these lyrics were cool. Like, I'm like, how the fuck did that happen? And I look back now and I'm like, this is absolute garbage. How do people write this stuff? How do they sing it? And how do people, like, engage with it?

Samantha 3:07

Yeah,

Brad 3:08

the musicianship too. So if you listen to like you're saying jammy about the Like like mainstream punk or oi or even like the mainstream death metal stuff like It's produced better. There's better musicians. Like the lyrics are obviously not abhorrent, hate driven crap. And the singers tend to be better too. It tends to be layered correctly. Like it just is, I don't know that it'd be just everything around it. When you go back to it and you try to like compare it to stuff that people actually tried. It's like, they just wanted to get the music out. Like they just wanted to push it out, even though it sucked.

Samantha 3:50

well,

Brad 3:50

are just ones that just sucked. Like actually it sucked. It was horrible.

Samantha 3:55

but I feel like right that is the point though, right? Like the music is part of the propaganda. It doesn't have to be that good It's it is telling the message you want it to is that that was kind of like always my assumption whenever the one of those guys would do like a You know like a parody of like a metallica song that just like had a bunch of the n word in it or whatever whatever those bands were that would do like the parody or whatever it was always garbage and they were always almost invariably probably drunk or fucked up in some way when they were recording it but like it wasn't about that you know it's kind of jamming like you were saying like it's so that you have the lyrics to listen to so that you have like the message and and all of that stuff

Angela 4:36

once a beat gets stuck in your head, you, you cannot consciously unstick it. It's like your brain has to unstick it. So that's how I've kind of. of the music is that they don't care as long as people are hearing the message they want them to. And as much as like, back then, I I thought it was good music, but I obviously had very bad taste back then. But today, looking back, even though I know it's bad music, like you can hear a beat that gets stuck in your head, even if you hate it and that. Is still a bridge to the message, I think, so I think it's a moot point about whether or not the music is good or not, that it just, it doesn't matter. It's going to get stuck there.

Lauren 5:35

think another important point too about, not all but a lot of the musicians at that time from what I remember, does anyone remember how Like charismatic, they could be like how they got the audience is going.

Samantha 5:48

yeah, yeah, it's the I feel like it's the experience of the music not the music itself and I think that's That was the point that I was trying to make with broadway It's like it doesn't have to be that good because it's not it's not really about that you think they're great because you're like it's all you have to represent you so it has to be good to you In, in kind of conjunction with that, are there any clothes or hairstyles or visual elements that you wish you could keep that wouldn't obviously scream like, hey, I am, or used to be a neo Nazi?

Brad 6:20

we still wear it, some of it. Like the Adidas stuff. And the I don't know. I wear the same types of shoes that I wore when I was in the movement. I just don't wear white power band t shirts, but like all the other stuff, all these like skinhead attire, I still wear a lot of that stuff. Like Lonsdale shirts, not see through ones with sweat. I try to stay away from that bit, but the whole, like that sort of look is, I think it's still cool. I know. But like, like you, Jamie, I've been, I've been wearing dressing the same way since,

Jamie 6:56

40 years. Like, I still wear Ben Sherman's. I still wear Fred Perry's.

Brad 7:01

all the time,

Jamie 7:02

Like, it's part of my attire.

Samantha 7:05

that's kind of, Angela says she still wears Docs. I still have my pair of Docs from in the movement, but it's because I didn't wear them in the movement and I asked my mom for a pair of Docs and she got me a pair of brown suede Docs and I was like, and I kept, I was like, this isn't it? Like, I can't wear this in there. So now I'm glad that I have a nice pair of rope suede docs that I couldn't wear at the time. But.

Lauren 7:27

a, I've got a pair of docs as well, actually. So originally I actually bought those so that we could do the cover shoot for my book, like for mine and my mom's book. And then I actually kind of ended up liking them again. I'm like, you know what? These would actually be really good for shows and stuff. Cause Lord knows I can't stay out of the mosh pit if I tried.

Samantha 7:44

They're very functional. Like there's a reason that they are like a ubiquitous pair of shoes that everyone has um It is it is I do I do still I think because it was so closely resembled new balance sneakers went here in america when trump was running. I To this day can't wear them. I can't bring myself to wear them and I I do kind of feel weird when I see them on someone just because that was such a dog whistle at the time for me. But it's, it's lesser and lesser as time goes on. I just still get like that weird double take moment.

Liz 8:20

It's interesting that people are still wearing some things. Cause I, I just walked away from all of it and I actually tried several years ago to buy a pair of docs. And I thought like, it would be nice to have those back because like you were saying, they are great shoes. And And first of all, like, I tried some on and I couldn't get a pair that fit for whatever reason. Like, it just didn't seem to matter what I tried, they just weren't fitting me anymore. And, It also just really felt weird, but like, but at the same time, I have to say I do wear New Balance sneakers and like, I've just had to kind of be okay with it and try to stay connected with the fact that my dad was a longtime runner and he only wore New Balance and that was like decades before Trump. And so I try to keep like a bigger, context for some of this stuff, but like, I don't, like, I, I find the fashion thing, even though it's been a long time for me, like, really kind of hard. Like, it's still, I guess, triggering in a, in a, in an odd way. Like, I just, I don't, I, I don't want to, like, look in the mirror and see any trace of that, a former person.

Samantha 9:31

I totally agree with that.

Brad 9:32

I feel like we don't want them to hijack our running shoes, though, that are comfortable. Like New Balance shoes, let's be honest. Those are,

Samantha 9:41

I know. now I'm like, well, maybe I should try them out and get over it.

Brad 9:45

like I have several pairs of new balance, like for different, things, but I also collect shoes. So I'm not letting the alt right steal my old middle aged white guy shoes. It's not happening.

Samantha 10:00

Yeah. And I feel I do completely when I was in, I didn't, we didn't have like boots and braces or anything like that, but I definitely relegated myself to a certain, a certain type of like Americana lady uniform thing. I wore a lot of like J crew and stuff like that. And even though I actually, I really liked how I dressed while I was in the movement, I do feel really weird. getting clothes from J. Crew just because I have that association with it. Like, I know that I bought it specifically to look a certain way, and so now I, I just, I just can't do it. how interesting. I didn't know that you guys still wore like all the same thing, just not band t shirts. That's interesting. Okay. Next, and this is, this is a little bit, a little bit deeper. Is there any one thing in all of the work that we've done and all the people we've talked to, is there anything in common that everyone has that makes them want to leave? That we've noticed or that we've come across. The only things that I've noticed is one, like, your personal life kind of really falls apart. Like, you kind of realize it's not worth it. And then the exhaustion of just having to keep up with claiming to hate everyone else, but there's actually so much infighting that you actually really need to, like, clear and change the roster of who you're supposed to hate every day.

Lauren 11:20

Yeah. I feel like the burnout piece is not talked about enough. Cause I've heard that with almost every single person I've spoken with who's left or trying to leave.

Samantha 11:28

Well, I think, like, I don't think I was in long enough or like I just don't think that that was something that I had the chance to experience. Do you think the public would take that wrong if we said like, yeah, I kind of just got tired of it. It's like, oh, you just walk away because you've just decided like you need a fucking nap and you can't hate people now. Like, like why is it that we don't talk about it very much.

Lauren 11:50

Well, I think it kind of depends like how you worded, I suppose, like for me, I wouldn't say, oh, I just got tired of it and walked away. I would say it was a buildup of things over time and I was just fucking done with it by the end.

Brad 12:02

the exhaustion, also like the, the, the emotional harm and the physical violent stuff, all that, like, and also the, I'll use this term wisely here, but the self harm stuff, and I mean substance abuse there too involved in that, like, it's like you had to stay. A certain level of messed up to like accept it. And then when you start thinking about that like that can't be a, that's not healthy. So you start to feel that burnout from all that lifestyle. And then that causes a different type of crisis going on. So you start to feel that exhaustion too, like, Oh, why do I have to do this to myself to be part of this? It's what this is supposed to be something that I believe in and I enjoy, but then you don't believe in it. And then you're like killing yourself to live. Basically,

Angela 12:47

You have to medicate to hate. It is exhausting being angry all the time. Like, physically, mentally, spiritually exhausting to do that. And sometimes we don't even realize that we need a break from it until we get a break from it.

Samantha 13:11

that's a very good point.

Liz 13:13

I think the exhaustion piece is very important to talk about. And I like, Yeah, and it's like, like a deep internal exhaustion, but also it's just like this exhaustion of being around people who, you want them to be like more multifaceted and, more, have greater capacity as far as their interactions with you and with other people. And they just, they don't have it. And it's, at least for me, brought on like a real sense of despair that, these are people I looked up to. These are people who were, who I considered my best friends and they aren't even capable of like putting it, putting all of this down for like one hour, and and I, I think to build on that, to add like another positive note into what do formers have in common, I would say that from an optimistic side, like seeking things, just having, having this idea like there has to be something more, there has to be something more. And I would, I would think that a lot of us got into the movement in the first place because we were dissatisfied with whatever was going on in our lives. And we felt there has to be something more. And that same drive is what helps us get out is, not accepting that this toxicity is all there is in the world. So. Yeah.

Samantha 14:28

Liz, just talk forever. That's exactly, I think you hit the nail on the head that like, I, I don't think every former is an idealist or anything like that, but you are, you're looking for that thing, whatever it is. It's, it's, it's that, that thing to keep you going, and when you realize, the second you realize that the movement is just a lie you can't unsee that, you can't unknow that, and it becomes almost impossible to keep going, because it's such a huge unraveling of your reality. Yeah, Liz, I, I loved that, that was so real. Okay. Someone had posted a comment on one of our Ask a Former things. It says At the Daily Former, why is it agreed on by both sides on the issue that anti whites demand one sided discussions, yet pro whites are not afraid of debate? What do anti whites have to hide? And please spare us some crap about giving them a platform as they would be giving you a platform. If there are any anti whites in the chat if you could raise your hand so that we could okay. Yeah, I didn't think so. Okay, so none of us are anti white. So, we can only answer to the best of our ability as not anti whites. I, I'm, my guess on this is why Is there encouragement to shut down white nationalist discussion from people if you're not a white nationalist? Like, why is it that almost every website for, anti hate groups always say like, Hey, just draw the boundary and don't talk to people about it.

Angela 16:09

Me. Pick me. Pick me.

Samantha 16:11

I think I'm gonna pick Angela.

Angela 16:14

Because any publicity is good publicity for them, and it is literally platforming their message for them. I mean, I could go on. That's the, that's my simple answer.

Samantha 16:29

I think also something that I want to touch on is like even beyond the platform right because like There's a world where someone on the right Or the far right or whatever comes on and, and I, I think the problem with this is that it's not about the platforming. It's about like knowing that you're not talking to someone in good faith. They're not coming on here being like, I'm willing to change my mind if something, if something elicits that, that transformation. And I think for all of us, we were all people that at some point in our life, twice in our life, had the open mind of one, An idea came in where white people were the victims or white nationalism was the answer and we heard that and we were like, okay, yeah, and then our minds remained open so that when we finally saw through all of it and said, Oh, this is this is actually bullshit. We, we, move through the world that way. And I think since then, once you go through that kind of transformation, you fortify yourself and you understand, maybe I don't have all the answers, I'm nowhere close to that, but I do have like my convictions and the things that I know in my heart. to be true. And I do not think that people on the far right that are quote unquote unafraid of these debates are looking forward to these debates. They're not looking forward to the debate. They are like rabid dogs waiting for a piece of meat to chew on it. They don't care if it tastes good. They don't care the quality of it. They just want to chew something up. And I can't in good conscience be willing to engage with someone that I know is not living on the same plane as me. And I think that for me is like Yeah, I could go on and I could, I could hurt, these guys feelings and you guys could go on and we could all teach them a history lesson and do all that stuff, but their answer is always like, you don't get it. Like it's, it's cause white people are blah, blah, blah. And it's like, I'm not anti white. I'm just also not willing to like, blindly believe in bullshit.

Brad 18:29

Let's be clear though, anti white and pro white are white nationalist terminology. I don't use, when I'm talking to folks in the street, I'm not like, Hey, you know what? I'm really pro white. What the fuck is pro white? How many cultures, what is that? How, where does that, the fuck is that? I'm not pro white, because that would make me pro

Angela 18:55

Listen, can we start introducing ourselves like that? Like, you go to shake somebody's hand and you're like, Hi, I'm pro white, nice to meet you. Or like, I'm, Hi, I'm anti woke, nice to meet you. Like,

Samantha 19:11

I think, I think that's also like the sad part of it is that like this person or these people above all else being white is the most important thing to them and it's like that doesn't make you a good engineer, a good parent, like an interesting conversation, a good hang. Like being white, It means nothing. Life can be hard, but it's not harder for us because it's, because we're white. And so I, I don't know, just the whole, the whole race thing, all of that

Brad 19:40

but that's their terminology. That's their theory. Their theory is, let's get a debate going on about people who are anti white. People are not saying anti white, okay? They are saying things that are like, you know you know, white guilt, all these, all this terminology. But this is all their ownership. They own those terms. In that movement, right, because no regular person in the world, I've never spoken to one person who's ever said, wow, I've really had an anti white day today. Talk to a lot of people that were black who were saying anti white stuff. No, it doesn't happen like that. But yeah, I have talked to actually just yesterday, a Jewish person who said they have gone through so much antisemitism in their short life as a 20 some odd year old person. But I've never talked to your average person that you run into in the world who's white. And it's like, Oh man, I gotta be more pro white about my life. Like that's weird. And only white supremacists say that shit. It's I know because I was one like I used these arguments Then we all did at some point use these arguments and it's all fucking garbage

Angela 20:58

You

Brad 20:59

all of it

Samantha 21:00

that's what makes it so hard for, for me or for us where it's like, we were on the other side. We know this, this game, this riddle that you're trying to give us. And like, I'm just not interested and I'm just not interested because it's, it's just, we saw through it and that's all you really can do.

Angela 21:17

think that's the thing though, is that we don't suffer the bullshit because we know the bullshit. Like, I'm not falling for that again.

Lauren 21:29

actually, the way I typically read statements like whoever this person's statement is it's basically deflection. So it's like, oh, let's take the focus off what we're doing and point fingers at the left. It's nothing new. I used to do that all the time.

Angela 21:42

Exactly. The rest of it was we know we're showing up to a game where they have already set the rules and they know exactly what kind of outcome they're trying to instigate. Like you mentioned earlier, Sam, it's not showing up to a conversation in good faith. It is not showing up to the table saying, my mind is open, I'm gonna hear what you have to say. I, I don't have like a speech that I'm gonna lay out to you. I don't have these 14 bullet points that I'm gonna slap you with, and I'm not gonna make outrageous claims. And finally, it may unfortunately be the state of the world today. We see. An entire country being gaslit right now, like there's no, there's no fair play. There's no, I'm going to give you the benefit to share.

Samantha 22:45

I wish there was, I wish there was a way that there could be a good faith debate on both sides. Cause I'm, I'm sure that some people would, consider the other side, but I also would love the ability to talk to white nationalists and get through to them in such a direct way. But it's, It's such a bummer that that will just likely it's just not something that can happen because white nationalism is not an ideology that exists in good faith. The entire ideology is about You're a victim, so you must set the world up to fail against you again.

Angela 23:23

And even beyond that, I try to challenge them to show up with a different record playing. We've heard this record again and again. I am ready to switch it, and flip it, and say, how about you show up and talk about your experiences, or your feelings. let's talk about the deep stuff. you know a challenge. You're such a badass. That's one of the hardest things you can do. I, I will totally have those conversations.

Brad 23:56

that part and it's so important. Why are they independently so special that we need to talk about the importance of race to that person? Like, no, we need to talk about what got you to the point where you think that you're more particularly special in this world than everyone else out there that's managing.

Angela 24:13

right. What made race so important to you? Like, let's bring it and really talk about it. And, cause that, that statement, or that, that message, read the beginning of it again, Sam. They come straight out with, That rigid all of this and all of that say this and that no, that's why Exactly. I'm not showing up for that conversation You can't even come with facts like what I hear in my head and probably cut this out is Ding you want to hear a true fact? Like Really? Do, do you know what a fact is? Like, you just double naked, like, negatived, the, and canceled out the fact by calling it a true fact.

Samantha 25:05

yeah, I, I agree. And like, and then the like, what do anti whites have to hide? Like, I don't, I literally cannot even begin to fathom what that could mean. And to have someone come on and like, explain whatever conspiracy that, that is is just. And I don't know. I just don't broker time for that kind of bullshit. Like, I just don't, I don't see how that benefits anyone. I'm almost astounded that we've actually even spent this much time on this conver on this question because it is just, the question itself is in bad faith, you know what I mean? Like, there's just this, I don't know, it's just such a bummer that like,

Brad 25:47

It reeks of great replacement shit.

Samantha 25:50

yeah,

Brad 25:51

and pro white is like great replacement garbage.

Angela 25:54

Can we counter with a question ourselves? can we ask them why they have so, see so little humanity in themselves that they can't find it anywhere else around them? Can we ask them why they hate themselves so much?

Brad 26:14

What a

Angela 26:14

Can we ask them if they're happy? Like, are you, are you happy?

Samantha 26:19

Can we ask them how, can we ask them if their life has gotten better since they started thinking this way?

Angela 26:26

Yeah.

Lauren 26:27

Or if it's empowering at all to play the victim, or how many, or how

Angela 26:32

If they know how many loved ones they've hurt. I mean, I got questions.

Samantha 26:40

Alright. Last question. This is the last question an unintended thing was that this ask a former the little post that we did it for me, it was just meant to, encourage people to send questions, but we actually started getting formers answering them in the comments, which was like a really cute little mix up. I actually really loved it. But yeah. Someone had asked the question, Are you proud of anything you've done in the movement? And some of the responses, one of them, was a standard learning from my mistakes. Someone else said becoming an informant, they were proud of that. And someone else said, I met a, and this person is not a former But it said, I met a former who was clearly, clearly proud of how he was able to build his party and keep it going for so long. And the two that I really wanted to touch on for that was becoming an informant, and this last response of meeting a former who was clearly proud of how he was able to build his party. I only wanted to mention this because I think that's two things or one of two things. One is either a person who does still really do the like, Oh, those were the glory days. Look at how cool I was. And like, hasn't really let it go. But I think there's also an understanding of like, Like, it's, it's kind of the way that I look at it is like, I learned how to manage discords while I was in the movement, I learned how to do website stuff while I was in the movement, everything that I do for TDF, I learned and honed in the movement, and I'm trying to use my powers for good now, and so I, I really want to give this person the benefit of the doubt and say that like, the pride of how they built their party was their kind of like, not all was a waste. I at least learned that I was good at this thing or I learned that I could lead or I could inspire people to want to do stuff. I, I just want to give space for that to be a possibility instead of it just being that like every time someone is like, yeah, I was like, really cool and I'm still cool. Like, I don't, I don't think any former thinks that, but are any of us proud of anything we did in the movement?

Brad 28:55

Yeah, I destroyed a couple of groups that I kind of started so on the way out is like I know Some people probably in this chat know some of this, you know, the same people that I knew or whatever But part of it was, you know realizing realization of what What was going on there and if I left, what would that do? Kind of like just as much as I was okay at leading it. I was also okay with leading the the trail of other people. And I, I keep hearing more and more people who did leave, which I think is something that's, you know, I guess our leadership, all of us in this, in this chat, right? It's so important in that people see us and hear us and know that it's possible to leave, right? Okay. So cause I think by us leaving people that we knew are like, Oh, so that's okay. Like you can leave, like you don't have to stay in this bullshit. So I guess, yeah, that would be something I isolate as some of the shit that I present about is when I talk about my story is like at the end, it was like bringing it down, but also painting the picture for others to see through their ideology and stuff like that. And Jamie and I joke about this stuff, but how dumb it was or how this or that. I used to like parrot that to other people before I left. So stuck in their head about like, oh, that's garbage. Or these people don't really believe that. Or here's the holes in that ideology. I don't know. I, I think, yeah, I get what you're saying too, though. About how, like, there are things, That you learned, like the internet, you learned about that stuff and, you know, I talked to people throughout my work with working with people who are leaving and they do have these things. They have these things that they're proud of, right? They might have learned, like, how to, you know, do marketing, online marketing or online, like you know, creating, creating stuff, digital creation, all that kind of stuff. It's so important to the movement, but it's also so important to what they do now. outside of the movement in their work. So did the movement teach them you that not really, but it definitely helped you in the movement, but also helped you now when you're out of the movement. So I think that's isolating those things.

Samantha 31:40

I think that's fair and I think that's a good thing. For whoever does feel like the movement, I don't know if you guys had it, when I first left for a while, it was like, am I important? Am I going to be important outside of the movement? Can I, like, whatever, what is my value? And wow, in the movement, I did this and I felt like I was really contributing to something. And if you're out and you feel like you have these skills and you're not contributing to something, you can find it. And if you can't find it, you can make it yourself. That's, that's what TDF was, was us as former saying like, there's a deficit of things that people need. Let's band together and let's try and fill that gap and meet people where they are and that's what we're trying to do. I do appreciate that perspective though. Like you're right. I didn't learn all of it in the movement, but it did give the movement did give me a level of confidence that I could go somewhere else and do it.

Angela 32:37

I learned survival skills and I'm not sorry about knowing them. I wouldn't say that's something I'm proud of and that I would include in a speech or something, but you know, it's, it's a tangible thing that I walked away with. I also learned that When I want to, I have a knack at inspiring people. And it's a, it's, it's a skill, it's something I didn't know about myself until I was doing it in the movement and until people, Were listening to me. And I have been able to take that and hone that. And like you said earlier, to add it to my powers for good. And to for a while it was to atone, for who I was and what I did, but it then became a decision to utilize that skill. Not because I felt like I had to, but because I feel like it's so important to do. And I also realized I'm a healer and that's not, I never set out to do or be that, but. I'm a helper, I'm a healer, and I feel like those skills in some way were distilled from my time doing what I did in the movement.

Samantha 34:04

Yeah, The last thing that I wanted to, and then it goes along with all of this, but someone had mentioned becoming an informant and I was recently talking to another former And kind of, we were joking about like, Oh yeah, like, the standard career trajectory of a former is like, at some point in time you become an informant or you work with law enforcement or you do this. And I wanted to ask, like, do you think that that's true? Do you think it should be true? or do we have opinions on this?

Angela 34:34

I think it could go either way. You could have somebody trolling you saying that because that's what's expected, right? We're all traitors, which. But also I know formers who felt like that was the only thing they had to give back. I didn't become like an informant, but when I went to prison, I made a decision to give information about the violence I knew that was being planned and the people who were planning it. I didn't give information about everybody I knew in the movement or, Every little scrap of, oh, well, I know this person did this or got in this fight, but the ones that I knew were up to violence, yeah, I gave that information, and I'm not ashamed of it, and I, like, nobody could call me any worse names than I've called myself, so I invite anyone to take their shot. I simply don't give a fuck.

Samantha 35:35

Do you wish a motherfucker would?

Angela 35:38

Sometimes, yeah,

Brad 35:42

Doesn't this, doesn't this roll into the role of formers in this work? Generally speaking, though, like it, it definitely is a role. It's one of the things that formers, tend to do sometimes is become an informant or work with law enforcement or whatever. Like it's, I think it's, it can be super unethical though. Because law enforcement, when they're running things, It isn't the safest situation for folks and they kind of put their information ahead of the safety of that person and formers are still people. And I don't think they're often given that information by these agencies as to what risk there is. And I often suggest to people that I'm working with that that may not be. a choice that you want to make, but there are some people that it works for and it helps them. It helps them digest their past and which is okay if so long as they feel like they've been treated okay by these agencies. We know that informant work, even generally speaking, is risk. There's a lot of risk associated with it. So,

Samantha 36:54

I feel like it's worth knowing that, like, as a former, you have to weigh out so many different things. It's not just like, am I going to sell out my friends? Like, there's your own safety, there's all this stuff. But also, as someone who is potentially in the movement, if you're listening to this and you're really mad at the idea of formers becoming informants, like, what is it that you're doing? That is worrying to you that someone might tell someone. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, the FBI is not arresting people for thinking bad thoughts. It's not arresting people for having shitty ideology. If you're worried about the FBI, it's because you are doing something wrong. And I think that is something that is like, just reconsider. Well, your next move.

Brad 37:39

reflection.

Angela 37:40

Yes. and weigh out the pros and cons because you're both right, like, it's not It's not a decision for everyone to choose to do it. And I would not bet that whatever government agency is asking you to do it has your best interests at heart. So while I may have shared information I had, I also am with Brad, I do not recommend that people jump into that lightly. However, I don't judge people who make the decision to do it if that's what they feel like they can contribute or need to do for themselves.

Samantha 38:26

I think we are going to have a longer conversation about doxing and go in public. That's something that we've, Liz and I have talked about and I think it's, it's definitely a conversation worth having. Cause I think we all have varying degrees of different opinions on it. Absolutely. But I think this, something worth knowing is like, the second you are public, even in your local paper, someone is going to contact you. If it's not a journalist, if it's not law enforcement, if it's not a documentary maker, if it's not someone who's trying to test you, like, you will be contacted. And I think a lot of people worry about that. A lot of people worry about, like, will law enforcement, like, if I leave, will law enforcement try and get me if I'm not public? Like, I don't know. I do know that law enforcement did not try to contact me until after I was public. So if you do want a peaceful life, really consider that. But I don't know. That's, that's really all I have to say about, about the informant piece. Like, I, I'm not very helpful in general. To most people, so I wasn't super helpful to law enforcement. I don't think I did testify about my story and that did happen to help the victims of a violent rally get an outcome that was in their favor. But I don't know. I just, I was just curious what other people's thoughts were on all of this.

Brad 39:42

Could I add I really like your bit. I really like your bit about the ponderance of thinking about our behaviors when, you know, I think it's a little deeper than becoming an informant, but it's like thinking about your behaviors. If your behavior is, you're worried that you are going to go harm somebody or yourself, or, you know, A group of people vulnerable communities, anyone like that, like that's the time to reach out to organizations that help people like that. That's, that's that time. It's not the time to reach out to the group to go act on it. That's the time to go act on yourself, preserve yourself. And preserve others and do that right thing to think about your behavior. And if that behavior is your consciously knowing, and you're aware that you want to hurt yourself or others, there are places that you can go now. And I think that's something Liz, like we, we. And Jamie, like, we just did not have, there was no access, there's, there's nothing there. Nobody for us to talk to. Angela too, like, it's like, that's why in this day and age there are people to talk to about this and people who are not going to judge you for, you know, having those thoughts.

Samantha 40:56

and it's it's safe. It's safe. Like, yes, there's if you come out and you say on this date on this time with this thing, I'm going to do this to this person. Like, yes, of course, when you make a plan like that. then someone should say something and try and intervene. But if you're just saying like, I'm getting to a bad place and I'm thinking about this or whatever, like, we're there to try and de escalate and to try and help you, and not, like it's, we're, we're just trying to make the world less violent, I think that's just worth mentioning. All right. I think we answered a good amount of questions today in good faith. Thank you guys for chatting and thank you listeners for listening. If you have a question or a curiosity, please feel free to email us at thedailyformer at lifeafterhate. org, DM us on social, leave a comment on our post, or check us out on Discord. Until next time, stay curious, y'all. Bye!

Brad 41:51

All

Jamie 41:51

everyone. Hey everyone.

Brad 41:52

See ya.