Jeff, Part 2

Angela and Brad learn when the veil started to lift for Jeff, how he got out, and what he's doing now.

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Transcript

Angela 0:12

Welcome back to The Daily Former. This is Season 3, Episode 2, Part 2 Angela and Brad finish the conversation with Jeff as he shares when the veil lifted for him, some of his realizations, and what he wants others to know about being involved in the violent far right. Thanks for joining us. My next question and direction is when did the veil start to lift for you? I have read and heard in some of your talks that you felt it wasn't right for a long time before you actually physically disengaged. Can you tell us a little about that?

Jeff 0:58

I was running the organization and I'm de radicalizing. this started around, I want to say 2015, 2016. I got out in early 2019, so it was a few years. And I'm ashamed to say it now, cause I feel like I should have left then, But I didn't have the fortitude or the courage, to do it at the time. I felt there was so many different emotions and things going through my mind. And a lot of things came into play with that. Moving from Minnesota to Detroit in December of 07. White people are the minority here. And so I'm, as much as I tried to having interactions with people of other races, it was impossible. You're going to have those experiences. And ironically, like a lot of the violence I experienced and a lot of the animosity and Things that happened to me happened from other white people, it wasn't like, people would say, Oh, you live in Detroit. Oh, this must be terrible. All the black people must be this, and this. I never really had bad experiences with the black community at all. So that, that's that was an irony. And so I'm having not just for

Angela 2:03

you. Not just for you. During my involvement, I fought a With more white people and people within the groups inter group and intra group fighting that it was like a big farce at the end because I was like, wait a minute, I wasn't even actually fighting with the people I claim to hate. It was with the people I claim to love. And that claim to love me. you're

Jeff 2:30

spot, you're spot on that. That's a hundred percent. And that goes back to what Brad just said a few minutes ago as well. A lot of that was in fighting with the groups.

Angela 2:41

That's a reality I wish more people realized is that it's not what it's cracked up to be because you're not stepping into this idealists paradise of, like, all these people that are going to love and support and, back you up and protect you and all the things that we think we're going to get out of it.

Jeff 3:02

And people don't typically don't see that aspect of it until after they're in the thick of it. And a as you both know, like literally every person you can think of, especially the the anybody in any sort of leadership role has been accused of being an informant or being a spy or those things were just traitor. Yes. That's a real awakening there. But yeah, I started having interactions with other people of other races here in the city.

Angela 3:30

Did you hide it?

Jeff 3:32

A lot of stuff was hidden. A lot of things were hidden. The last few years I was involved, and when I've said this to people or explained it to people, it just blows them away. Like I'm dating girls from different races and things like that. The last few years I was involved and I'm still operating this group. And, nobody knew that. That would have been, that would was my next question was

Angela 3:54

what were you doing personally that you would have. Face some terrible consequences for if your comrades would have found out

Jeff 4:07

That would, dating outside the race when it was one. And I was doing a little bit of that. The last few years that I was involved there's some

Angela 4:15

kind of dirty excitement to that. I did that too while I was involved and I got caught once and dude said, if you don't end this, I'm going to tell everybody. that Oh, I'm doing something bad and I'm getting away with it. Or I'm breaking against these rules. And there was lots of, little pieces like that, that were rebellious acts. Against what I claim to hold so dear. So did you have any kind of issue or did you have a problem in the movement that was some percentage of a factor in your disengagement?

Jeff 5:00

Not really. I went through different, anybody that had been involved as long, I was involved a total of 27 years and 25 running the organization. There was a lot of drama over the years and some very public controversies and things like that, and I learned how to weather those storms. I've seen people that would get driven out by things like that on occasion, but I learned how to operate through that So I had learned how to adapt and adjust to those types of things. There wasn't anything that was necessarily driving me out, but it was having, it was like a whole bunch of things stacked up together. So I'm, dating outside of my race, which is a lot. And as you had mentioned, and it was a lot more common, there was a lot of people doing things like that, that were on the down. Different things and, that I wasn't supposed to and find out it was a lot more common than anybody that's in it would ever want to admit. Nobody would ever admit it because, we had drugs was another one. Yeah. And early on in my involvement, if we caught people doing drugs, They would be beaten If anybody was doing anything, they could get beat up. But in 2016, I've met Daryl Davis, who I'm sure you're familiar with. He's a African American musician and he's known for helping get people out of the clan and things like that. How'd you get in

Angela 6:14

touch with him? Did he reach out to you or did you reach out to him?

Jeff 6:19

I didn't know I was meeting with Daryl, so I I had gotten contacted by a a film company, and they explained this project that they were doing, and they said, would you be willing to come and be interviewed for it? And typically I did a lot of this kind of thing. I don't know if it was fate, destiny, whatever, But when they pitched it to me, I just said, Oh, this sounds good. Yeah, I'll come. And I didn't really do much background or checking on what this was. I might have checked the film companies. Okay, it's legit. I'll just do it. And so I didn't know I was meeting with Daryl Davis. I'm at in Alabama outside this restaurant with my girl at the time. And we're waiting for the person, the interviewer to arrive and we're sitting on a bench outside. And this was a place where Hank Williams had written Hey, good looking on it's called Chris's hot dogs. And we're sitting out there on the bench and this big black guy steps out of a vehicle, walks over and extends his hand and he goes, Hi, I'm Daryl Davis. You must be Jeff scoop. So I stood up, I shook his hand and I was like, gosh, I know that name from somewhere. I know this guy's face too, but I couldn't place it right away, and I'm just like, man, who is this guy? And then we're walking in, we sat down and within a couple of minutes it clicked. I was like, ah, crap. This is the guy that gets people out of the clan or whatever. So I would have been, I feel if I would have known I was meeting him, I would have been more. Hostile going into it. Yeah, I would have been more prepared I'm gonna debate this guy and he's known for this and this But when I did figure it out, I was like, oh it's just another day at the office I'll argue with this guy. So I'm realizing in this conversation We're getting along really well, like we're talking about music, and all this kind of stuff. And I'm thinking, and Daryl and I, when we've done talks together, he'll explain it as well. Jeff snapped into movement mode because we were getting along too well. So he so I said something aggressive I'll fight to the last bullet for my people, and raised my voice and got a little aggressive. And typically when I would do that, people would react, then they would push back, they get angry. They'd raise their voice. It's just a kind of a natural thing. Daryl is very skilled. He didn't do that. He didn't react. He didn't even, his expression on his face didn't change. He just goes, okay, and then just continues the conversation. So now I'm like, totally blown away. I'm like, Are

Angela 8:42

you like, wait a minute, what's up? What the fuck what's going on here? Yes.

Jeff 8:47

Yes. Yes. So now I'm really drawn into the conversation. I'm intrigued. I'm trying to figure this guy out. Like, why is he not reacting? What's going on here? So now I'm more relaxed, but more curious. So I want to hear what he has to say. And he's would you like to know what I, why I do what I do? I said yeah, of course, conversations are reciprocal. And he explains how racism affected him as a child when he was. 11, 10, 12 years old, how he was in a Boy Scout parade and he was being pelted with rocks by white adults. I'm hearing this story and it's churning my stomach. It's not, I'm not, it doesn't feel right. I'm feeling empathy, and I didn't realize it at the time, but I'm like thinking, man, what if I'm trying to put myself in his shoes and think about what if somebody would have done that to one of my kids? How would I have felt, and the first thing that goes on in the mind at the time is, and this is, this was something that I did for years and years, and I know a lot of other people do it too, when that are involved is you distance yourself from those things. You go you think at least it wasn't anybody in my group that did that, or it wasn't me, or I don't know anybody like that. and you separate yourself and go those are Those people, same thing I did every time there was a mass shooting, or something like that. And the other, the scary thing about that was, is whenever something like that would happen, the first thing I would do is go look through the membership roles, because I don't know who everybody is. So I hope this person's not one of our members, that's, at the time, it was just business as usual. Looking back on that after I got out and processing this stuff it was like, that is not normal. That is not okay. That is sick, but that disconnect, is pretty common. And hearing that from Daryl really that seeking mind that I had when I first got involved, that slammed shut. Now I'm dehumanizing others. You don't, when you're in the movement, you don't see the humanity and the people that are sitting across from you. Daryl cracked that open, and Showed me his humanity and it touched something in me. Yeah,

Angela 10:51

Jeff, you just said it. It reminded you of your own humanity. You took it to, what if this was my family? What if this was my child? And that kind of, that little, instance of rehumanization for you was really a big moment, it sounds

Jeff 11:13

huge. That's where I, that's where I placed it. That's where I really started feeling what I was doing was wrong. And In my own way. I felt and this was, this kind of correlates with the timeframe where and this was stuff I had to psychologically put together after I left, and go back and say when did this change start? When did this all take place? And that happened. And now I'm trying to change things in the group, like I had, I was demanding to the press and the public. Call it a white civil rights group. And I know that's laughable and it sounds completely insane. And the way I explain it to the kids now is I was trying to put lipstick on a pig. I was trying to dress up the Nazi party and make it look pretty, or make it but this was also because of my own evolving views at the time. I was trying to convince myself that it was a white civil rights organization, which it's not, obviously. But That's what, that's how I was making sense of it. So I'm struggling through all these different things. I'm having these changes in ideology, but I'm stuffing that back down. I'm still, not going to let anybody see that this is bothering me. I'm not going to tell anybody that bothered me. I'm just going to keep going. And but Daryl really intrigued me in a lot of different ways as a human being and just how he interacted as well. So he intrigued me right away. And that's why he's like a brother. He's like family today and now. And he was Once I went public, he was one of the earliest people that reached out to me in one of my darkest and lowest times in my entire life. Daryl's family to me. But after meeting Daryl, I'd met a Muslim filmmaker by the name of Diya Khan, and she had a similar methodology, and I'd gotten to know her quite well over the course of the film because I was one of the main people in the film white right, meeting the enemy edge. So she had traveled with me across the country and had been up here to Detroit a bunch of times to several times anyways, to interview me. And originally when she reached 30 minutes of my time. That's it. And I remember

Angela 13:10

I watched that and I was like, man, how did that feel like you can't help, but be humanized. In ways, even when you are so resistant to it, and when you are convincing yourself, that's not a human, we're not going to have anything in common. They're not, this, they're not that and come to find out you're wrong. You're wrong. And there's not anything you can even do about it. Resist all you want. Resistance is futile when you actually are in experiences and situations to have the human rub off on each other. I want to go back to something though. It's interesting to me. That you mentioned trying to change things, like calling it a white civil rights movement at a time when the violent far right was purposely rebranding itself and trying to tone down the imagery and the look Have you ever made that comparison or thought about that?

Jeff 14:19

There was there is a lot of that goes on. In a group like What I was involved in it was so overt That I don't think that you it would be pretty hard to there's groups and people that i've worked with now That have been Fooled into joining groups and saying I thought it was a patriotic organization, right? I just thought it was right wing I didn't know they were fascists, you know with a group like It's kind of of hard do that because it's obvious, so

Angela 14:45

Is there anything that you're proud of from your time in the movement? Do you miss anything about it? Is there anything poignant? That you carried throughout your experience that today you look back on and you're like at least I got this out of it.

Jeff 15:06

That's a deep question. I wouldn't say, everybody, could say there's certain things they miss about it. Some of the camaraderie or some of the things like that. But if I had to pinpoint something It would be and this goes back to what I was saying about leaving and one of the things that delayed me was I was worried that if I leave, I felt like a pressure valve that a lot of times there was cases where people would come and say, should we go do this? should we go do things that are not legal? I can explain it that way. And I was that pressure valve saying, no, you do something like that. You're thrown out. We don't allow that because this and what, and it wasn't necessarily coming from I would love to say it came from a moral place, but it was also like a legal thing. This is an above ground organization. You can't do illegal things. So if someone did horrific crimes, they would have to be thrown out. If somebody was advocating illegal activities we figured they were either idiot. Or an undercover operative of some point. And we couldn't have to do with either one of them. So I guess I could say that I felt it's hard to say you feel good about anything that, that came from that life. But I feel like I, I stopped a lot of Potential acts of violence over the years. And I guess that was a good thing, but it's hard to find good things in that in any involvement in that world. Really, to be honest, it's a tough question, Angela.

Angela 16:28

Hey, I warned you. I've warned you. You cannot say I didn't,

Brad 16:33

You know what it's about though, is that, we didn't people that get involved in that stuff aren't like, Oh this isn't good. They were feeling good at that time. They're feeling good about that camaraderie or whatever the reasons are that list of things, why they joined or whatever, but they were under the assumption as well that they were doing. Good for a greater good of things, right? They just had the wrong idea of what they should do good for. And I talk with. All sorts of people in my work now, as you probably do too, Jeff it's yeah, I get it. I get, you feel like you were doing a service to something at that time, but now you're seeing it was actually disservice to humanity, but also a disservice to you as a person. You were duping yourself. You were like gaslighting yourself by thinking, Oh, I was doing all this good. but there's a feeling to that people don't understand, that never get wrapped up in that is that you want to feel loved or wanted or all those things to write, just like you were saying, associating with the story with Daryl which was resonates a lot with me that's a time you felt empathy and I felt that looking into my 2 year old daughter's eyes at times. Until you know that, until empathy, until you get to there. And before that, in the movement years, you're trained to never see that. But you're thinking you're doing all this good for this cause, but that cause isn't good. But once you see that empathy, you're like no I now know this cause that I need to do. And let's just actually do good. And that's these pieces. We put them together, but it takes that time and that realization, which we never know when that's going to end up happening. But yeah, thanks for sharing that those wonderful things. So we can think about when we're not doing good, even though we think we might be at times. And then once we see empathy, we know that's what can change the chorus.

Jeff 18:32

So really well stated man, and it's like they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions So I would say and I think a lot of people when they look at Individuals that are radicalized from the outside looking in they say man. How can you not see that? How can you not realize that they almost all of them? Believe that they're doing something good and noble and it's really hard to convince somebody otherwise of that. And I feel like the best way to do that is, is by reframing things and reconnecting one with one's humanity and rehumanizing dehumanizers and breaking through those boundaries. And that is a tough thing to do. And it's a delicate process.

Angela 19:10

I think you touched on that earlier when you were talking about. Daryl, he didn't respond to your aggression and that is not only a skill but a saintly quality. Yes. It's hard even now in honor of transparency, I see people spouting the same kind of stuff that used to come out of my mouth. That I used to stand up and say, I'll die for this and I get angry and I am filled with disgust and I have to stop and remind myself that used to be you. You used to be that person and. I have to go into why does that bother me now? Why do I feel such a reaction now? And it's a constant process of that internal dialogue and continuing to work it out because. I don't want to put words in your mouth or anyone's, but I don't think any of us walk out and say, okay, I've done all the work. Case closed. I'm now this I was involved a third of the time that you were and I will be working on this for the rest of my life. I will be undoing habits. I learned I will be tackling. Being accountable. I will be showing up to make amends, not because I feel like I have to, but because it's part of who I am now. What are the kind of tangible, physical things that you had to change when you decided to?

Jeff 20:59

Where to even start on that? It was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my entire life by far. It was a really dark process. But I want to preface that by saying it was the best decision I ever made in my life. It was tough. It was difficult. It was grueling. The, one of the hardest parts of it was What I call it, what I refer to as the decompression phase where that where I was sorting through all, going through the process of when I left, it was like a weight was lifted off of my back because now I don't have the responsibilities of running this organization doing all these things. I shut off the ringer on the phone, didn't answer anything other than, I had some corporate responsibilities and things that I had to shore up. I still handled a few of those things, but the general like membership and people reaching out and all that, I just I needed to stop. Talking to that, not talk to those people unless it was something that I had to handle. So I'm alone basically in this process and just trying to work through all these things and figure out life. And I did have a little bit of I had my father that I talked to. I talked a little bit to Dia just before I left. And after I left in that process, a couple of girlfriends, you could count the people, my support system on one hand. And that was that first period was really tough because now I didn't have a mission. I didn't have a purpose, all these kinds of things. So now I'm struggling through that because that was the movement was my purpose. That was what I did, and I knew I wanted to do something in what I framed as peace building, that I wanted to use my skillset to do something good in the world, that I wanted to reverse osmosis, that process and do something good, but you can't just. snap out of the movement in five minutes and then go do that. I thought that was how it looked, but it's not, that's not realistic. It was tough, but so I, it went, I went through a lot of that sort of thing and working through a lot of those processes and then went public in August or September of 2019. And I denounced racism and all that. So when I first left the movement I re I retired and I did that on purpose. Because. You can retire and walk away and not be targeted. Yes, I knew at that point I knew I was going to speak out, but I wasn't ready, so it was like, I'm going to just walk away and retire and then when I'm ready, I will make that announcement. So I felt like I was ready and it was August or September and then I launched the website and My personal website and basically said that I was denouncing the ideology and that started the journey and I, then some people reached out, Daryl Davis had reached out before that. And a few others had reached out and then I got once I made the announcement and went public, Simon Wiesenthal center reached out to me and they've been incredible in the journey, Connecting me with different communities that I want to

Angela 24:00

get there, but not yet.

Jeff 24:02

I'm going too far ahead.

Angela 24:04

You're well, you're a, you're telling me a lot, but you're saying very little about what it was like to navigate that emotionally. There's so much to deconstruct. Everything from your masculinity and how you're perceived and how you perceive yourself. to your safety? What if someone attempts to take you out? What about doxxing? What and it couldn't have been easy, Jeff. You come across as a very strong individual and capable, but for the strongest, most capable individual, That's a tough journey, and I think that if I could be so bold as to say when I first saw that you came out, I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it. I'm not sorry about that. I transitioned into, okay, maybe, and I've watched, I've read, I've watched, but as you may have noticed, I failed to connect until recently. It's scary for people to think, wow, this guy that is dedicated so much of his life to this, such a length of time to the public, it appeared as if, You just came out and we're like, okay, I'm done and I'm good. Now I'm a peace activist and I'm a expert in this and being who I am. I know the under the hood and I was like, but that's not what I want to hear or see. I want to see how I want to see. I don't want to see you suffer, but I want to see the struggles that you're going through, because I want to know if they're the same that I went through and the same that so many other formers have gone through. Part of this interview is you being vulnerable and sharing what some of that felt like that the public did not see. I think what I'm getting at is What was that like? I'm not trying to take advantage of your pain and suffering, but I want to know what did you go through?

Jeff 26:38

And I appreciate that and I do understand where you're coming from. It's difficult. It's vulnerability is something that I never showed in the movement. And most of us didn't at that time. And it was. One of the most I still have trouble, I think with vulnerability just because it was so ingrained that that was considered like a weakness and in the position I was in, if you showed vulnerability, any vulnerability you were weak, you could be targeted. People could try to usurp you you name it. It was, it was profound. And I didn't even realize I was behaving that way. That was stuff that you had to piece together afterwards. And one of the things that, that pieced that together for me, and this is, and I think this is what a good way to answer your question, because it's, there's no one answer. It's a lot of branches. But after my mother passed away My kids had said my couple of my daughters had said to their mom, they said, dad has feelings like they were shocked about it or something. And when she told me that I was, I got a little upset. I was like, What is that supposed to mean? What do you mean? Why are they saying that about me? That's a terrible thing to say, like they're surprised that I have feelings, and she's you need to think about this. It's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. And when I pieced that together, it was even in the home, all those years. And this is another thing a great shame and regret that I carry Is that my kids didn't see they in their minds like I didn't have feelings because I can't even though I thought I did. I thought I was showing, you know caring and stuff and in the home but it was always stoic. It was always stone faced, it was always That carried over even though I thought it didn't You know, that's how it affected my family and my kids growing up in that environment, even though I wasn't movement leader at home. That's what they saw. They saw somebody with no feelings. And I tried to break that down into different things over the years that I thought about different experiences that took place when somebody was emotional or something in the movement. We didn't know how to handle it. It was like an emergency. Like I got one time at a meeting, a guy bust into the room and he's I need you now, this is an emergency. And it was somebody was crying. Nobody knew how to handle it. And I didn't want to handle it. I'm like, why are you bothering me with it? You're the boss. You got to handle it. Oh God. Oh man. It was like, we didn't know how to. How to deal with that. And that was something that I wouldn't have probably pieced together if she hadn't had said that. So obviously everybody has feelings, unless you're a sociopath or something like that. But it was like, that was the mask. That I had to put on to survive, for all those years and to not be victimized or things like that. And that's something that you have to piece together after you get out. But I think some of the hardest things like the one word answer, like, how was it? Hell, hell, it was pure health. It was so hard. And some of the greatest challenges, I think, for me, there was so many. I don't know where to where to piece them all. But some of that public skepticism, like you had mentioned you were skeptical and I totally understand it now, but at first. When I was getting that and I was getting it from the public, I was getting it from the press. I was getting it from all angles. I'm still being attacked from the far left. He's a Nazi. The movements calling me a traitor after I'm speaking out. I'm going through all these different things. And then there's. There's public skepticism and whereas I understand it now and I empathize with it because I try to put myself in someone else's shoes. If you saw a guy walk away from the movement after 27 years, would you believe him either, and, I think I would question it as well, but for me, I would, at first it was more of a It was crushing. It was unsettling. It was my God, I'm risking my life and I'm putting myself out here and people are still doubting me. There's no words to explain how that feels on the inside when you've, Walked away from everything and you're trying to do the right thing and being questioned. Like I said, I understand it now, but how that felt initially was absolutely crushing. I feel like if I hadn't, if I didn't have as strong as resolve as I do, I would have faltered. I would have failed or just stopped, because at some point, for me when I left and everybody's journey out is difficult, but I had a lot of other complications like my business, my livelihood, everything was wrapped up in this, everything. So when I left

Angela 31:25

freedom,

Jeff 31:27

yeah. And it was just, So there was a lot of things that, that it would have been much easier to stay in the life where I was because I had a position of I guess what people would say is power or respect. And I had people that looked to me for direction and my business, everybody I knew, all my friends, my whole life was wrapped up into this world. And and I walked away from it and that, that was concerning, and during that, what I. I'm not talking to anybody. I'm also not telling anybody what I'm going through internally because, I've said a few things to my father and a few people but it was, I don't know, just as I guess as a man and growing up in the generation I did, it was like, you didn't show weakness. You didn't show and in that life, you just never showed those vulnerabilities and now articulate them. It's been one of the hardest things, One of the hardest things to do. And then that the public skepticism, it just felt, it felt really terrible. And it felt if I said the resolve is there, it was always there, but had it not been, I might've just said, you know what? I know business. I know these other things. Screw this. Why am I doing this? Why am I trying to make a difference or try to help if I'm not wanted on this side of things? That was difficult. But I just kept pressing forward because I felt like can add something. I can do good in the world and I can a tone for this past. And the best thing I felt like I could do is use my skill set that was misused for so many years to do good, to do something positive. And that's what I continue to do despite the hardships, despite the challenges and things like that. So I would just encourage anybody else that's going through it is to not give up and to understand that. People may be skeptical about your journey. It's really hard to articulate it, but it's, it is, it's, it was crushing.

Angela 33:23

Thank you. I I appreciate you sharing that. I'm not gonna lie. I'm torn. I understand strength and vulnerability today. I have a very different view of vulnerability. It is my greatest strength, my ability to be vulnerable. It empowers me. It empowers the people around me. it helps me create a safe environment for others. I relied on aggression and violence and anger. They were my crutch. They were what I hid behind. They were a way to cover up everything else that was happening. Where I'm torn is. I think a lot of people wouldn't understand the perspective of how much you gave up to change and how much you've given up to be who you are today. And in the position that you are I think that is a side effect of being a former. We deserve to be questioned. We were involved in terrible things, and I frankly would be concerned if none of us were questioned about our sincerity. Personally, I can share with you that. My knowledge of you started way back in the days of Leaf. Life After Hate was called in to collaborate and consult when that happened. So my knowledge of you goes back, and it's What I knew of you then is very different from this conversation and what I know of you now. I also know how hard we've worked to maintain a safe space in the CVE area and I would both encourage people to continue questioning, but encourage you also to keep with your resolve. And to keep going, no matter the questions. People's minds can change. We know this. And sometimes the best gift we can offer is showing over time that we're different. So I highly encourage you to keep that up and don't let it bring you down. But I also understand it's a very difficult path to walk emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and physically sometimes. You've talked about how some of your relationships were impacted. By your involvement in the violent far right, can you talk about what kind of impact it's had on your relationships to disengage and to come out the other side and to do the work that you're doing now

Jeff 36:23

I answer this, it's challenging. It's challenging in a lot of different ways, but it's in a good way, I think, One of the first things was, is after getting away from that life, they're like, people would be like, you smile now, or things like that, like in that world, you're always hard, always, just angry, and it's like, what do you mean I smile now? I smiled before, no, not really, There's more light, period. More light in our lives once we break free of that because you shed that part of your past and let go of that. And doing that through vulnerability is a big part of it. And I didn't realize that either. And that's one of the things when I sat down with the Wiesenthal Center and I said, I want to speak out I read it. Oh,

Angela 37:05

put you on the spot. Yeah, he did. I did read it, but our listeners may not have. So please go ahead and share that experience. If you would.

Jeff 37:17

When I went through their vetting process and all that with the would do any speaking out with them, I had to go through a vetting process and, and Rick had asked me at one point, he says do you feel like you're ready? Do you feel like you're ready to speak out? And I was, cocky is the best word I can say at the time. I was like, ah, public speaking. I've done it for my whole life. That's what I do. It's easy. No problem. I'm going to be good at this. I didn't maybe say that, but I was. Pretty confident that I was going to, it was going to be no big deal. Rick says, he goes, I don't think it's going to be quite as easy as you think, Jeff. And I said, why is that? And he says, because you're used to getting up there and spewing movement stuff and talking about politics and this sort of thing, he says on this side of things, you'll be talking about yourself. And I just I didn't think much of it at the time. I just went, oh yeah. Okay. That didn't hit until I was. Giving my first speech here in America. And that was the first thing I had done on this side of things here in the United States in 2019. No pressure. Oh, my gosh. And I thought, oh, okay, I can do this. It's not a it's not. And I had a couple notes of things that I wanted to say on this panel. And then someone had mentioned just before we went in, they said, this area that we're in California was an area that your organization was heavily active in and it brought me back to that. I was like, Oh man, I didn't, it didn't even cross my mind. I was just thinking about what I should say. And I was like, I need to apologize to this audience. Like these people all live in this area. I'm sure they're familiar with the group of many of them. And it's hard. Emotionally, how that felt, because now, you're showing vulnerability. I'd never done that before ever show that kind of vulnerability. And to say I was wrong, I had come out of an environment where in the eyes of the membership I was the guy that was always right. That had all the answers. And of course I wasn't, but that's how I was viewed. And now I'm in a situation where I'm getting up there, I'm showing vulnerability, I'm admitting that I was wrong. I apologized. To the community that was so hard, but the desire to want to do good overpowered that. It was tough. It was really tough. It was much harder than I anticipated. And you're right about vulnerability, what you said as well. It is a power. It's a powerful thing. And it's a, and it can It can do a lot, especially when we're trying to reach people, because that's what Daryl showed. That's what Dia showed to reach me. And it's one of the best ways we can reach others is by connecting with that shared humanity that we have.

Angela 40:04

You do, because nobody holds you accountable on those things in the movement. It's in all the years that I've been doing this, and this includes my own experience of disengagement, I disengaged in prison And I, Went down in the federal system. When I got there, I was housed with Griselda Blanco in the special housing unit for a month and didn't even know who she was then. And when I was put into the general population, I was stripped of everything I had that made me a tough bitch. And I had women do Something that disarmed me, they treated me with kindness, even knowing that I was there for a hate crime and they held me accountable in a humane way and asked me questions that there are no words to describe the feeling of being asked. If you would have met me before on the street or something, would you have tried to murder me and my baby? You can't get up and walk away from that in prison. And those were the kind of questions I needed to really start that process and To learn to not use the anger and aggression as my crutch and my way to hide from feelings, from humanity, my own and that of others. It is tough Jeff. I applaud you for digging deep it's worth it. I have one final question for you. Are you happy?

Jeff 42:05

Yes, absolutely. That's an easy question to answer. It was the right, it was the best decision I ever made in my life. It took work, it took effort. It still takes work and effort, and it always will, I think carrying the baggage of that past. And I think it would probably be easier to do something different and not rehash things and stuff like that. But I feel like If my life or my mission, is that if we can stop even one person hopefully many more than that from taking that treacherous path, or if we can help people repurpose their lives and become astute and good members of society Then it's worth it. It's worth that. It's worth the struggle. It's worth the risk. It's worth the, it's worth everything that we go through. And I feel like we have a I don't think anybody should feel like they have to, but I feel like I have to, I feel like it's necessary. I don't do it because anybody's saying I should have to do it. Like you had mentioned early on you do it because you want to. And I think we can help and reach so many people by that because of our experiences, because of the journeys that we've been on we have a different understanding or a different lens to this world and the best thing we can do is help others understand it and help others break free of it. on this side of things creating peace and bringing humanity together. It's it's truly doing something honorable and noble. And and again, it's saving lives. So it's a good thing.

Angela 43:30

That absolutely is. Do you have anything you want to say or plug before I do our outro?

Jeff 43:36

It's just been an honor to be on the program and to have this discussion with you guys and I hope that my journey can Help somebody out there. People are listening and maybe reach somebody and give them the strength to do the changes for themselves and know that there's others like life after hate myself. Other people out here that are willing to help walk with you on your journey that you're not alone in it. we've been there. We understand we get it. And we're here for you. Don't give up.

Brad 44:05

I got a couple of thoughts just to end off on to Jeff obviously we thank you for joining us and having these conversations because I think these conversations specifically are what can really help out other people knowing that different folks go through different times with this and It's all similar in some ways. And we need to recognize, even what I see from five years ago when we met how far you've come. it's so interesting to see how people's process goes through the different changes that it does, because there is no Simple way to describe it where researchers and academia wants to. And yeah. So thanks a lot. And and I hope our relationships can continue in this work and I know we're helping people out there. Thank you, Brad.

Angela 44:56

Well said, Brad. Thank you both for being here. Thank you for sharing this interesting path that you've walked, Jeff. Thank you so much for coming on. I hope our listeners enjoy this interview and really walk away with meaningful information or ways to connect with what you have been through in your journey. Feel free to let us know how you feel by commenting on our Instagram, Twitter, or joining the Discord and getting in on the conversation. Again, Jeff, thank you so much for coming on. We wish you Luck in your future, and I'm sure this won't be our last conversation.

Jeff 45:47

Thank you so much for having me, Angela. And you guys keep up the good work.

Angela 45:50

You too.