Ernest

Ernest has never told his story- until now. Ernest was in the White Power movement in the late 90's through early 2000's and he is still thinking about what he can do to make up for it. Ernest talks about his childhood and adolescence, not quite finding his place and trying on different hats until the movement convinces him to try that too. By the end of it, Ernest is mouthing off to law enforcement and studying to become a priest for a religion he doesn't even believe in. What got him leave? What does he plan to do now? Tune in to find out!

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Transcript

Samantha 0:13

you're listening to season three, episode four of the Daily Informer. This season we're interviewing formers themselves, letting them tell their story on their terms and asking questions that we get from our friends in the discord, people writing in and things we just want to know in general about our friends. My name is Sam and today I'm here with Jamie and we are talking to Ernest. Ernest was in the movement with Brad and Jamie and I believe they lost touch, but very recently reunited. to get started how are you guys? How are you guys feeling?

Ernest 0:42

I'm good. Feeling ready to have a chat.

Jamie 0:45

Good, good. I'm good. Nice to see you, Ernie. Nice to see you, Sam.

Ernest 0:48

to see you, Jim.

Samantha 0:49

Nice to see you. Thank you. I was gonna ask Neither of you have ever really spoken publicly, like, your own stories, have you?

Ernest 0:57

only at the bar

Samantha 1:00

What what made you want to speak out?

Ernest 1:03

Well You know I've it's i've been to almost 20 years removed from all this and you know I it's like I said, it's always kind of you know lived in the back of my mind and Like I said, i'm full i'm a full guardian of my child now and I just, I'm kind of set on the path of doing good things, and I think this is, not just this, but other things, and I want to leave something behind for my daughter to be able to look at years from now and say that my dad did something good. My dad did something, that was positive, to try to make amends, real amends, right? Maybe somebody will listen to this and maybe relate to it, right? maybe you'll stop some kid from going down the same path I did or even some adult, who knows, right?

Samantha 1:45

No, I think that's awesome. Alright get started, before we get into kind of the meat and potatoes, give us a taste of your life before the movement. What were your parents like? Did you have a political affiliation? walk us through kind of generally what made you vulnerable to the movement is really what we're trying to get at.

Ernest 2:04

Well, my parents, I mean, we can go back to the beginning, I guess. My parents were young. They were 19 when they had me, they were, I guess they were rambunctious young people that, had a family early and, they did the best they could with what they had, that's I mean, their home life wasn't the greatest. I lived with my grandmother. She was, she lived with us. She was a cold, hard Scottish woman, always critiquing, never very loving. There was never a lot of Huggy feeling type thing in my house. My dad was involved with motorcycle culture, right. Or it was before I was born and then was given an ultimatum, choose the family or choose that. Or and he chose the family. And I think he was really. Really angry about that. And you kind of, I'm not going to come here and slam my family because, they've got a lot of redeeming qualities. Right. But I mean, in the early days, it wasn't easy at home. And I found myself, always seemed to be outcasted by everybody else. You know what I mean? Always trying to fit in somewhere,

Samantha 3:03

with the motorcycle club and just kind of the general family dynamics were there ever politics discussed

Ernest 3:08

No, there was like politics were never discussed except, my dad always said how much he hated Pierre trudeau and shit like that, I mean, so basically You know, there was always what I call biker racist stuff, you know what I mean? Like, you're not all the way racist, but just kind of like biker racist, and there was comments and stuff that I picked up on when I was a kid and, and then not being a, a white kid in Surrey in the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s. I mean, it was such a racist place. Like, I mean, it was just like, I remember. Just, all the kids always make, especially, towards East Indians, right, because there was a big East Indian population in Surrey, always has been, right, but it got really big in the late 80s, early 90s, and, everybody, all the kids, kids my age, 8, 9, 10, making all kinds of racist jokes, just thinking it's funny, and we heard it all. They would've heard it all from their parents or from older kids or whatever. You know what I mean? It was just kind of a normal thing. it was always there. Right. Even though we knew we had friends from all different sorts. Right. But I mean, we always had ra, RA racist jokes and racial innuendos were always a thing. Right. And so, I mean, I guess that kind of. Let the, paved the way for what was inevitably to come, right? It was kind of easy. It was kind of easy.

Samantha 4:25

when you were talking about being a kid and stuff like that did you have a lot of friends? Did you play sports or anything like that?

Ernest 4:31

Well, I played sports competitively. I was made to play sports. I played soccer. I played ice hockey. I did martial arts.

Samantha 4:37

Okay. So you were active

Ernest 4:39

yeah, I was very active as a kid. My father was very involved in all that, whether I liked it or not. That might've been, that might've been the problem. But. Yeah.

Samantha 4:48

going to say was that a lot of like You needed to be like off like a tough guy kind of thing because your

Ernest 4:54

Well, yeah, I mean it was it was a it was yeah, it was like you had to be you had to live up to dad's standards all the time Like I was taking a shit at home. I was taking a shit on the field I was taking a shit at ice on the ice, like it's kind of like never really able to be independent, never really able to do anything for myself without them there. It was almost like being over parented, you know what I mean?

Samantha 5:15

Yeah, no, totally

Ernest 5:17

I got a lot of friends that were under parented, and I was over parented, so. What do you do, right?

Samantha 5:22

well, then how were you introduced to the movement?

Ernest 5:28

Well, heh, that's funny. I, when I was 15, or 14 or 15, I was in the mall. And I was given a flyer by a dude, right? And that was the first taste I ever got of it. I don't remember whatever it was at the time. That was so long ago. And I just remember, okay, this is a thing right and I you know, I was into like metal me and my buddies We were into like death metal and whatnot and I noticed everybody people were wearing swastikas and stuff And I think it was more of a shock value at that point, right and I just kind of liked the imagery Whatnot, I went to a punk rock show when I was 18 and it was just a regular it was just like, actually it was just punks and that's when That's when I met, the WP guys, right? Without mentioning the crew or anything. So I met the WP guys. They came in for the first time and I got to meet them. And it was right after right after the, there was a murder in Surrey and one of the guys One of the guys that was guilty of it was a guy I went to school with, right? So I had, yeah, a guy, we were actually in the same class. We were alternate students, right? We were for kids with behavioral problems and problems attending and whatnot. Right. So I I knew he had been involved in that. Right. And I was like, it's like, fuck, that's pretty fucking cool. I was like, wow. Like, that's how fucked up we were. Right. So fucked up. I was like, wow, that's fucking awesome. Right.

Samantha 6:51

What about it was cool to you like the power of it or

Ernest 6:56

Well, well, yeah, basically, right. Cause I've always felt powerless, right. I always just trying to fit in somewhere, you know, everybody that I grew up with, they all kind of, we're doing their own thing and I was always trying to fit in with them and, the harder I tried, the more they pushed me away, right. And, it was like, I just kind of, I, yeah, I was, just a lost kid. Right. And when I, I know, so this had happened, the murder had happened and I ended up at this punk show and then I met the dudes that were not involved, but, part of that crew and they were at the show and I ended up. Spending the whole fucking time with them telling jokes that you know, I had heard from You know some of the grown ups in my life and they just loved it like oh this kid's fucking awesome and I just loved it, right? I was like, oh my god These dudes are like the most badass that I know of and

Samantha 7:46

They

Ernest 7:46

you know Now now they like me right? i'm like, oh my god, right? So now i'm bloody, you know Shortly after I watched yeah, I got I watched american history x and romper stomper. I was like, that's it Right. I suspenders, I didn't even really know how I knew nothing about skinhead culture at that point. Right. I just, and that's, and honestly, that's not even skinhead. That's bonehead. Right. So, I just started dressing the part and then I was, I had left home. I was, I was underage welfare recipient, just a gutter skin. Like, I didn't really have any political affiliations at all, right? It was more or less just the imagery and the ideology. I mean, nobody was part of any group, right? Not at that point anyways, after that murder everything kind of went to shit for them, right? And they kind of all went their own ways, but I was hanging out with the guys that were, in the fallout of that, right? So,

Samantha 8:38

as you were getting to know these guys and getting more, like, involved and assimilated into this, where were you with the ideology? Were you just excited to, like, have pals, or was this something

Ernest 8:49

well, that was a big thing, right? Like, that was the big part of it, right? And, at first it was just, I was excited to be accepted and, I would go out of my way to, do whatever it took to, And make them like me, right? And make me, I fit in, right? And doing a lot of stupid shit. the ideology came later, right? The ideology came much later, the first five, six years, it was just basically drinking and, drinking and blatant racism and, it was, it wasn't, there wasn't, it wasn't an organizational thing, right? It was just We were just kind of like a gang of idiots, right? Not really affiliated with anybody, right? But everybody knew somebody who was hooked up with somebody and yadda, right? So, that was good enough for me at the time.

Samantha 9:31

What were you getting out of it? Was it just having group of people? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ernest 9:37

It was camaraderie. I mean, I think camaraderie Was number two, but the number one was power, like I had said before, I was kind of a bullied kid, right? I was kind of the weirdo, didn't fit in with the so called cool kids, whatever. And but these were all the kids that I grew up with in my neighborhood, right? And, I was always, when they were getting their cars and driving off to go do stuff, I was always the kid left behind, and, everybody's gone and I would just go home. And then I would sit in my misery and every, and I would get picked on mercilessly, right? I mean. Especially, my name, right? Like I got kind of very classical Anglo Saxon name, right? Ernest. And, I mean, it's not your typical Ryan or Jimmy or Bradley or whatever, you know what I mean? It's more of, it's an odd name and I would catch shit for that too. And I just catch shit for everything. Right.

Samantha 10:27

Yeah. target.

Ernest 10:30

Yeah, and I used to try, I used to make up stories when I was a kid to try to fit in with people, and it never worked out. Right. And I was like, I was a fucking mess as a kid. I was a mess, like, it wasn't, nothing was good about it, and as a teenager anyways, and I found these guys, and they gave me a sense of power, they gave me a sense of power that I didn't, I never felt before, right, it was like, I walked back into my old neighborhood, and people that used to pick on me looked at me, like, holy shit, right, like, all of a sudden they were afraid, and I was like, fuck, this is, I've It's a good feeling, right? I didn't have to fucking make up stories to try to fit in anymore, right? Cause I was actually, doing these things, right? And,

Jamie 11:14

So, so the movement really gave you a sense of identity, really?

Ernest 11:18

well, a false identity, but identity nonetheless. Yeah, Jim. Yeah.

Samantha 11:23

yeah, and I mean, when you're looking back at all of this, and recounting and all this, was the ideology always there, and you just didn't see it, or you excused it, or was it something that really did evolve as this went on?

Ernest 11:40

Well, that's the thing, right? in the late eighties and early nineties that I can remember, growing up in Surrey is such a racially charged place. Like

Samantha 11:48

Oh, yeah. It almost, it felt like nothing.

Ernest 11:52

Surrey's a rough place anyways, right? It always has been, but it's so racially charged. we were cracking racist jokes when we were in the third grade, I remember, like, saying, putting on fake East Indian accents and whatnot. It was just a normal thing back then, right? I mean, clearly it wasn't, but to us it was.

Samantha 12:10

In all honesty, I think it was I grew up in New Jersey, America, and I lived right next to this town was a humongous Hasidic Jewish population. And we That part new juicy. And we would make tons of anti Semitic jokes. We called each other. All these things, but there was just this idea of like, well, we live right now. We can't hate them. They're our neighbors. We can, like we're just making jokes, never thinking about like, this probably sucks to be them and to hear this stuff, like,

Ernest 12:41

I hate to say, it was the time, but the fact of the matter is, it wasn't right back then, and I mean, it's just that we were too, I was, I mean, we were too young to know better, right? I suppose our parents maybe should have known better, but, the generation before us could have taught us better,

Samantha 12:56

Okay, so you're going to Toronto and you're gearing up to like really be more involved in this?

Ernest 13:04

No, absolutely not, quite the contrary. I actually moved, I moved to Toronto to I'm trying to get away, but especially while I move to get away from a certain person, a certain individual that I was living with, and that person was not well, I won't go into detail, but, I was a kid. I was a kid and he was much older. He ended up going to jail for murder. Long story short, I don't have nothing to do with the guy for years. I moved to Toronto. One of my dad's buddies had me move into his basement in the Greek neighborhood on the Danforth. It was awesome. And I ended up meeting down at a bar on Yonge Street. I heard some heard some punk rock music. So I walked in and it was upstairs is called the Duke of Gloucester. And there was a crew, there was a crew of skinheads sitting there. I was like, holy, wow. So I gave them an overarm salute in the middle of the bar. And they kind of shook their heads at me and called me over and went, sat down and talked with them. They were traditionals, right? I had no idea what the fuck a traditional was. And that's when I learned about being, what being a skinhead is all about. I learned about the spirit of 69. I learned about reggae. I learned about the the perfect culmination of Jamaican and British culture to make the one it's like, it's almost like appropriation gone, right. You know what I mean? Cause you need the two cultures, you need the two cultures to make the one,

Samantha 14:29

Okay. Yeah.

Jamie 14:30

I like

Samantha 14:30

Yeah. I can

Ernest 14:31

I was pretty sold on the idea. Well, that's the origin of skinhead, right? Skinhead was never a racist thing. But no, I was almost out of it, right? I was hanging out with these guys and, things were good and I was having fun and there was really no politics, right? There was no, I didn't, they were just really awesome dudes. And then I met. The other guys in Toronto and they happen to be friends of Bradley's and it's kind of funny because Bradley had moved to BC At pretty much the exact same time that I had moved to Toronto and he had met some of the dudes that I knew And I met his buddies out in Scarborough and I had met those guys and all of a sudden I was kind of sucked back into it. Right. And I was like, Oh yeah, no, I know. So and so, Oh yeah, no, I know. So and so, the way it goes, Jim, right. It's some sound, everybody's everybody's checking each other out and yeah, well, anyways. So yeah, I was hanging out with those guys, hanging out with, the movement again. Right. And then I caught some trouble in Toronto, some legal trouble, ended up coming back to BC. But the different end I ended up getting, that's when I met Jamie and Brad. That would have been about 2002. The difference is, I fell in love with being a skinhead and I knew what it was all about, right? But I still wanted to, for whatever reason, still wanted to fit in on that side, on the right. You know what I mean? Like, with the WP guys.

Samantha 16:01

Yeah. What do you think that was?

Ernest 16:03

well I think because I still had some I still had some ties with some of the people I knew before I left for Toronto and I didn't want to be I didn't want to be an all out traitor. You know what I mean? No

Jamie 16:16

Isn't it amazing how that keeps a lot of people in?

Ernest 16:19

oh absolutely. Yeah,

Jamie 16:20

being labeled a traitor,

Ernest 16:21

It's so nuts. It's crazy because it's like you're a traitor to what like it's

Jamie 16:27

to a false sense of bullshit, really?

Ernest 16:29

You know what I mean? It's like, fuck, man, take your white revolution and shove it up your ass. There's like fucking 13 of you guys having a barbecue at someone's house. It's so fraternal. I mean, it's fuck it's like, no, nobody's got the balls to go out and foot none. None of the guys I knew anyways got the balls to go out and do anything to like super public,

Samantha 16:47

no, none of them do. That's why it's, that's the reason it's growing is because they can do it online now. They don't actually have to, like, be accountable for the ideology. They can just

Ernest 16:57

Hey, I don't need to tell you what, I don't need to tell you when I discovered Stormfront. Holy fuck.

Samantha 17:03

Game changing. Yeah, the internet.

Ernest 17:06

Everything and anything. Holy fuck, right?

Samantha 17:10

Also, how

Ernest 17:11

Nazi.

Samantha 17:13

Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. So then, how long were you, how long were you in before you had started to kind of see through it? Or did you always see through it?

Ernest 17:25

Let's, so, for the brass tacks, I got involved with in 2002 with Jim Brad, Jim and Brad, and a few, obviously I'll mention their names because I'm fine with that, but nobody else, and it was up until 2006 that I left, so I would say four years of actually involved.

Samantha 17:45

And

Ernest 17:46

that,

Samantha 17:46

say is, what would you say is the peak of your involvement? Like, what were you doing at that point when you were like, fuck yeah, I'm in this?

Ernest 17:54

The peak of my involvement was when I ended up down in That would have been towards the end of it, actually. That would have been down in down in Oregon when we went down there for for a camp out and I got to meet a bunch of guys that were in bands that I had listened to since I was 18, you know what I mean? And that was like, sitting around a campfire singing with a buddy from The band, singing songs that I've been singing for fucking years and all of a sudden I'm singing it with the guy that sang it, I mean and he's really nobody he's just fucking

Samantha 18:25

Well,

Ernest 18:26

no rock star by any means but to me I was like, oh, this is awesome, right? But it was at that same time at that very same moment is when I realized that I was in further than I wanted to be

Samantha 18:37

Oh, so? Yeah.

Ernest 18:38

Well, we were told, I don't know if Jim remembers this, but we were told that the ARA was going to show up to the camp out and, start start off, start shooting and start doing start trouble with us. And I remember getting taken by one of the, one of the guys from down there and taken to the end of a pathway. And he handed me a handgun and told me to stand guard kind of thing. And I was like, I've never shot a gun before. Never. I don't even know how to fucking use one. Right? And he didn't, so he took it back, and I ended up just standing there. He's like, well, you just, call out if they show up kind of thing, and I'm standing there in the dark, in the middle of the fucking woods, in Oregon, waiting for the ARA to show up. I'm like, Jesus Christ, like, and just how expendable am I if these guys show up with guns, and they just leave me there with fucking nothing, right? Like

Samantha 19:23

Yeah.

Ernest 19:24

Obviously, it's all, you're just a lookout kind of thing. It's like, what the fuck am I doing?

Samantha 19:30

Well, so let me, oh man, this brings up so many things for me. One, when you were talking about meeting the bands, like, I've always wondered if that was part of, like, obviously that's part of the propaganda, right? Like, I would go to the, my iteration would

Ernest 19:43

The music is their fucking fuel.

Samantha 19:46

the music well and then it became podcasts like any like just something you can listen to without having to like watch it and make it so obvious that like what you're doing is nazi shit or like far right stuff but like i would go to these pool parties and the podcast host would be there and i felt the same way where it's like oh i'm meeting these people that i listen to every day all the time and like Half of you is like, wow, if I became front of them, then like, I could be the next big thing, or I could be the so and so of this movement

Ernest 20:17

It's a sort of narcissism, right?

Samantha 20:20

yeah, oh, absolutely. For a populist movement, they do a really great job of making everyone feel individually special.

Ernest 20:28

Oh yeah,

Samantha 20:30

and then what you're talking about now, where you're realizing how expendable you are The movement would never say that. They would say that you're a martyr for the cause. They'd put up a statue of you in the ethno state, over your dead fucking body, that they would let die.

Ernest 20:45

You know what's funny? Around the end of it all, I remember watching this thing and. Watch this like this telescope from like millions of miles away, looking at Earth, just a little speck in the middle of the universe, and it's like, so insignificant. Like, in the grand scheme of things, right? These people that hold on to these ideologies, we're all going to be dead in 80 years, if we're lucky, right? Like, they got no life to live, right? They're obsessed with fucking nothing. It's so ridiculous. I

Samantha 21:20

Yeah. Well, the next

Ernest 21:24

the best way I could put it.

Samantha 21:27

I, no, I think that's, Did you feel that when that was happening, that you were like, wow I would be dying for nothing right now.

Ernest 21:35

Well, there was three for instances that really kind of sealed it for me. There was one I got, I met this dude off storm front who ended up killing this guy. We, I indirectly knew

Samantha 21:49

You have an unusually high amount of murderer friends. It's like,

Ernest 21:53

well, this is the thing, right? Like, but, and so he killed this dude in a house back east and The crazy part was, is I was the guy who met this guy. I was the one who initially met him, and I was supposed to go to some survivalist fucking camp with the guy in the Yukon. I was like, just coming to the realization, this could have been me. This could have been me fucking sleeping and getting a baseball bat in the fucking head, you know what I mean? Like,

Samantha 22:18

Yeah,

Ernest 22:21

you know who I'm talking about, Jim.

Jamie 22:23

I do. I do. Mm-hmm

Ernest 22:25

Right? And like, yeah. Yeah, like this could have been me like I could have I actually was planning on going up to the survivalist camp with this guy Luckily enough. There was one day where we got him on face like a like, I don't know some full face chat thing Like you know You had your webcam and you could talk through it and the guy was all high and drunk and we just kind of like 86ed him like we didn't want nothing to do with him. I was like, yeah, the guy's kind of weird then we heard about it later, right? And I was like, holy shit, like, We were coming back from that Oregon trip. I was telling you back about, we got pinched at the border. I had fucking, I had spent shell cases in my pocket. Cause on the way out of the woods, we stopped and we were firing we're firing, I got to fire a handgun for the first time on our way back home. And Stupid, 25 year old Ernest picks up the showcasings as a fucking souvenir, then decides it's gonna be fun to mouth off the border guard, the East Indian border guard, when we get back, and then we all get pulled over a car gets stripped. Yeah. No, that was good time Yeah, that was lots of fun Especially having everything laid out for everybody to see all the flags our jackets our books cds,

Samantha 23:31

God.

Ernest 23:33

Oh, it was beautiful. It was all because ernest couldn't keep his mouth shut it was it wasn't too long after that I was out But when I was down there I met a guy You And I was this is where it starts to get crazy because I've always been, like, not Christian. Right. And was being manipulated into becoming a minister for the by a guy, again, I'm not gonna mention any names, but some short little fucking guy with a big red Swazi on his head, used to drive around with guns under his, I'm just like, oh my god, these guys are fucking insane. And, all of a sudden, I'm getting all this stuff from the getting sent to my parents house, and I'm catching shit from my folks. Why are they sending this shit that we're going to get put on a terrorist watch list and all this shit? Oh, I just kind of come to the realization that I was kind of just, once again, just trying to fit in somewhere, all of a sudden, the guys weren't good enough. I needed to be I needed to do something for myself. I always had to. Always wanted to do something for myself, but I was like, fuck, I'm literally forcing myself to believe him in the shit. You know what I mean? Like I was so conflicted. Like it was just fucking, I just, that was it. Right. And luckily what happened, but like, just like just before that we Jamie and I and Brad and a few other, we went to a show in in town and it was, we went to a traditional show and I ended up meeting the guys out here in Vancouver. And I think that if I had have met them, When I came back from Toronto, I probably would have been hanging out with them first, again, I was Gravitated towards you know what I knew right, but luckily I met them and I was like, yeah, you know what? I don't want nothing to do with this white power shit anymore I just I mean I know what being a skinhead is all about and I love being a skinhead and I you know I finally found where I fit You know what I mean where I fit in all this and I really took to that subculture and Decided to walk away from white power. I was like done. I was just like fuck it. I'm not scared of these guys You know, i'm not scared of anybody There's more of us, and that was the thing especially when I first came out around the traditional guys I was like, okay. Well, they're they know who I am They're either gonna kick the shit out of me or they're gonna accept me and they were very accepting Right, they were very accepting because they were like, yeah, you want to be done with that shit fucking, you know Come with us I mean,

Samantha 25:50

So Well, which a congratulations. I'm very happy for you and be like, what was that process like?

Ernest 25:59

well, at first there was like the deprogramming of me, right? It was like having, I mean, like I said, even to this day, there's songs and rhetoric I will never forget. Right. But I mean, in the beginning it was like, cause it was all, everything was always on the tip of my tongue all the time, always on the, always on the forefront of my mind, right. Having to forget about all that and just almost like fake it till you make it. You know what I mean? Right? Just kind of, just go out of your way to make everybody know you're not racist anymore. Again, I mean, you can look at that as a way of trying to fit in again. Absolutely. Just somewhere else. And this is where, self esteem issues and everything else come into play. Because it's like, that's why I think kids with self esteem issues are the most vulnerable to getting poached by these, White supremacist fucks.

Samantha 26:54

Yeah, well, and also, you know what you said where there are still songs and there's still rhetoric like no matter how far away you are from it You'll always know

Ernest 27:05

It's a scar.

Samantha 27:05

ha yeah, you'll always well, yeah, you'll always know what they think, what their take on it is, this and that, and I think that's part of what makes it so easy for insecure people to fall into it, is because once you kind of get the basic language down, you're set for life. You don't ever have to learn a new joke, cause it's all the same racist jokes, you don't ever have to learn any new information, cause there's only one book that gets published on any subject that they have, like, It's a pretty low barrier for entry.

Ernest 27:35

Yeah.

Samantha 27:35

and I think that's part of, like, media wants to believe that It's only idiots that fall into it. And it's like, no it's a ton of different people that get stuck in it.

Ernest 27:45

bigotry can cross any line. even to this day, almost 20 years later, I get people questioning me and it's like, well, it's it's one of those things and you just gotta kind of be humble about It's like, you can't get super defensive about it. It's like, okay. Yeah, you know you were there you were You know you took part in it. You gotta own it Right.

Jamie 28:05

Yep. Yep. Well said. Well said.

Samantha 28:08

Do you feel confident that you're out for good?

Ernest 28:13

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My daughter is my daughter's quarter jewish. So i've I gave up my card forever there's a penance to it I think that's like that's why I want to do this too, right it's like I said, like when I first left it I went out of my way to You know anytime I saw anything racist or and I attacked it right, you know batch the bash Right and it's like, that's you know It is what it is when you're a kid, I'm 44 years old now, right? And I've been out of it for so long, I've had people ask, why, I've had people ask that i've told that i'm doing this like, well, why are you doing it now? It's I don't feel like I ever really atoned for anything, right? I don't and maybe this isn't atonement. Maybe this is just getting it off my chest, but maybe atonement will be going to schools and talking to kids, Like, I mean, look at, I've actually mentioned this before, take prophylactic measures, right, treat hate like addiction, treat hate the way, the war, getting kids before they take drugs, getting kids before they hate, letting them know that some of these jokes and, not some of them, all of those, these jokes and these mannerisms and whatnot, they're not acceptable. And, they're just, they may not, they won't see it, but it actually paves the way for, what they could potentially become. All right, especially, if they're vulnerable and they have self esteem issues, especially in today's political landscape where everything's so fucking divided, right? And I mean, the right is very emboldened again. Right to that and they've done such a good job that it's not just white people that are you know It's not just white people that are you know adhering to these? To these views you got all sorts of different people now, you know thinking this way,

Samantha 29:48

like we were just talking about like the barrier to entry being so low is like No one walked Well, I don't know, I'm not gonna speak for you guys, but like, no one walked up to me and was like, Hey, I'm gonna put a swastika tattoo on you right now. Like, that is not how being radicalized starts. It starts with something small. It starts with something like, It's a little immigration issue, and then it turns into, well, the immigration issue is because of this and the, and then it just keeps building and building until before you know it, you're at a punk rock show with swastikas all over yourself and you're, shouting shit everywhere. Like that's,

Ernest 30:21

yep.

Samantha 30:22

I think, again, people think you have to be stupid to fall for this. And it's like, no, the propaganda is surprisingly sophisticated. In fact. Most people in the world today are falling for it.

Ernest 30:35

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, It's crazy, and I mean, The Right has actually done a really good job at infiltrating, everyday society, too, right? Like, that's, they own the, the media, from the media to, fashion, you get these Proud Boy idiots, and, like, you

Samantha 30:52

I think about I left in 2017 and when I left the ideology was like fringe, like it was again, I was an extremist. And now, if I were to leave having that same ideology, it'd be like, oh yeah, I just don't believe in that congressman anymore. Like it's not it's a wild thing when you really look at like how mainstream What Was Fringe has become.

Ernest 31:20

Oh, I know, I see it every day, that's why I try not to watch the news anymore.

Samantha 31:24

Yeah, you will never, yeah, it's terrifying.

Ernest 31:29

Try to move on with your life, you try to just, I mean, I got a girlfriend, I got my little girl, I got my career, and whatnot, and it's just like, you don't want to be bothered with some of this shit, but at the end of the day, you can't help it, right? It's like, holy fuck, and it's just right in your face all the time now.

Samantha 31:46

speaking of moving on from stuff, I You know, the reason that we have Jamie and we wanted to have Brad on here is because you guys were friends in the movement and then you recently reunited. When you left, did you stay friends and throughout your time and all this, do you think you can stay friends with people while they're

Ernest 32:06

No, not while they're involved in the movement. Not at all. There's no, there was no more contact from that point on. I was public enemy number one, right? I fucking traitor became a, they would call me a sharp, I've never been part of any organization outside of the white power movement, but I became what they know, what they would call a sharp skinhead against racial prejudice, right? And I identify as an anti racist skinhead to this day. Even though I'm not part of any scene, I do my own thing now. I'm very casual, but I mean, it's definitely shaped, who I am today, right? There's no doubt about that. And yeah no, I couldn't it's unfortunate because like, I mean, especially Jamie, I always had a fucking, Jamie was always, I love Jamie to death, like the

Jamie 32:52

Well, thank you.

Ernest 32:52

And, that was the thing. He was always really good to me. Always, talking to me, and know what it's yeah. So without getting all sentimental, Jim.

Samantha 33:00

It's so sweet. I love it.

Ernest 33:02

Right,

Jamie 33:03

I appreciate it.

Ernest 33:04

It's like we've had this discussion before, or there's some that's the thing Is that there's a lot of like, you're right There's good people that are get stuck in that shit, right? And they just get stuck in this ideology and we all just get you know, we live in an echo chamber We live in a bubble and we're just regurgitating it over and over convincing ourselves You know forcing ourselves to believe in this shit day in day out trying to outdo the other guy it's like there's it's too bad that I mean You I mean, there's one in particular that I could think of that we talked about before, but he got stabbed up, he was a good kid, he probably could have been he probably could have been saved to this shit, but not too smart, made some bad, made some dumb decisions, right? I mean, I missed, when I left, there was a few people that I really did miss, but I knew it was Yeah, I couldn't be in, I couldn't be around them. I couldn't talk to them. That was just the end of it, right? So I never thought I'd ever get to talk to Brad or Jim again, but years later, I found out that Brad was And I had actually reached out to him at that point and that was years ago and I got a message from him back and then that was the end of it for up until last summer. Like I reached out again.

Samantha 34:10

Aw.

Ernest 34:11

I decided to do this. I decided, yeah, I'm going to do this.

Samantha 34:15

this is kind of a, not multi part question, but just to cover several topics at once you talked about stormfront and I want to know about when you disengaged, you became enemy number one and you also had like online accounts and stuff Were you ever afraid that people were going to come after you or like?

Ernest 34:33

Well, luckily without gold, I said in the beginning, my father was involved in motorcycle culture. It wouldn't have ended too well for anybody involved, put it that way. So I wasn't all that, I wasn't all that worried. Right. But I just kind of, I just kind of, just stopped using my accounts, right? That was, that was it. It's just, I just wasn't going online anymore. I wasn't ordering from particular, distributors anymore. I wasn't in contact with anybody anymore. I just kind of did a complete one 80 and went the other way.

Jamie 35:05

What'd you do with all your old stuff? Like all your old CDs and teachers?'cause I know for me, I just threw'em in the garbage for,

Ernest 35:10

I burned them. I burned them. I was up in the cabin in the woods and that was A little bit of a getaway, put it that way. And, Yeah at a bonfire and Everything gone.

Jamie 35:21

Was this, was this pre-planned or just kind of last minute?

Ernest 35:24

It was just yeah, everything's always just been on the everything's always last minute with me just You know just like I had the shit up there. I was like, you know what? Fuck this i'm done They don't ever want to go back.

Jamie 35:35

No, I, yeah, I threw all mine in the garbage, like a thousand CDs.

Ernest 35:40

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh,

Jamie 35:41

It took me like six, six trips to the garbage bin to dump all these CDs.

Ernest 35:45

christ

Samantha 35:46

Oh my god.

Ernest 35:48

Yeah, no, all right. Well, we used to really take our cd collections very seriously

Jamie 35:52

Yes, we did. Yes, we did.

Ernest 35:54

we did because that's the fuel that's the fuel like, you know that recording you did with me jim That's that one. There was yeah. Yeah, I mean that was intense, right? Because that's what it is That's that's their number one. That's how they get you with the fucking music.

Jamie 36:10

For me, music was the way. And I was just your average, you know, 13, 14 old kid who loved punk rock. And then somebody's like, Hey, I was like, Oh, what's the, what's the big deal about this fucking screwdriver band? Like, Oh, you've never heard screwdriver. Well, here you go. And it was screwdriver one side and no remorse on the other side. And I was like,

Ernest 36:28

You had a you had a tape

Jamie 36:29

I tape. Yeah,

Ernest 36:30

I had a tape. Absolutely

Jamie 36:32

would've been 80, 88, 89.

Ernest 36:35

Yeah.

Jamie 36:35

For me it was.

Ernest 36:36

I remember seeing those pictures of you. You actually met Ian Stewart.

Jamie 36:40

I did,

Ernest 36:40

Yeah, no, I know that's fucking insane right and that was one of the reasons I was like fuck Yeah, I know somebody that knew ian stewart, like again, i'm feeding my own ego, right? Oh, holy shit

Samantha 36:51

It's so interesting and funny to hear you guys talk about this because in, in my iteration of the movement, and this is no offense to you guys, or anyone really, but we kind of knocked all of that stuff. Because we had this like, oh, like your stupid fucking bands and whatever and your braces and your this and your that, like thinking we were so much better. But as we're talking, it's like, that's how we treated fucking podcast hosts. Like we wore the fucking khakis and certain like brands of clothing to like show our, like to demonstrate our dedication to the ideology. Like it's so, it's just really funny to hear. Cause I was like, I have no idea who Ian Stewart is. Like, I

Ernest 37:30

so were you were you more or less like, if I could ask, you know Without getting into detail like one of those mileo Unopolis type fucking alt right kind of

Samantha 37:39

I was all right. we were the intellectuals. Thank

Ernest 37:43

Gotcha. Tiki torches and everything, gotcha.

Samantha 37:46

Yeah, so that was my iteration. And I left soon after that rally because that rally was when I realized like I had intellectualized all of this out of insecurity. And as it kept going on, most of it was online. It was all in chat rooms. And then the unite the right rally happened. And I was like, Oh that's what this is about.

Jamie 38:06

Yeah. I mean, like you were saying with Ernie, like the, I think the last time we saw each other was that, that Lancaster show. Was it the Lancasters?

Ernest 38:13

Yeah, it was Lancaster's, that was my buddy yeah, we went there and I ended up yeah, I remember, I'll never forget that show. That was it was kind of cool because I had already, I knew about being, I knew about skinheads at that point because remember, Jim, I was more interested at that point from the time we met, I was more interested in all the traditional oi. I remember you and I used to talk about that all the time, right? Like it was I was always way more interested in the old non political oi, I should say. Right. And well anyways, I went to that show and I ended up making friends with a few of these guys and that was basically the, I think that was my last hurrah.

Jamie 38:51

Yeah. No, I think that is the last night I, I saw you was that night of that show.

Ernest 38:55

And I ended up, I was like, fuck it. I was like, I took off for a bit. I came back to town and I got I met a guy, he's a Vietnamese skinhead. And he was at that show. And I remember one of the guys we were with knocked him down in the pit and I actually caught him and picked him up and we ended up chatting. And it was a Vietnamese skinhead that introduced me to everybody and vouched for me and said, Hey, This is Ernest, oh yeah, that bonehead guy, yeah, but he's not like that anymore, he wants to hang out with us, kind of thing, and I was like, okay, well, I was told to come out, and I was like, I'm either gonna get shit kicked, or they're gonna accept me, and the latter happened, right, I was, I was, it was cool, right, and then from that point on the rest is history.

Samantha 39:38

How were your relationships impacted as you went through and left the movement?

Ernest 39:44

Wow, I didn't really have too many relationships anyways, right, it was mostly just people I mean, what do you mean? Like, like my personal relationships or

Samantha 39:53

Yeah. Yeah. Like, with family and. Basically, family, if you had any romantic partners, and then also just like general friendships, like, is it harder or easier now? When you left, did your friends even believe you?

Ernest 40:08

I was way too drunk and belligerent to have a girlfriend. That's for damn sure. No, my, my folks, they were never really cool. I mean, they were never really too cool with the whole white power thing, especially my mother, my grandfather was one of the first men in belts and camp to liberate it. So, they had a. They had, they really hated the fucking Nazis and they hated the fact that I stood for it, right? So they were pretty, I mean, they were pretty happy that I wasn't involved in it anymore. But the other, yeah, there was, a lot of people, just people that weren't involved in the movement that I knew had a hard time believing that I was out of it. Right. Just because I've made again, even though I felt like I never really believed in nothing, I went out of my way to make everybody think that I was, fucking that guy. Right. Again, Just wanting to, be the guy to just fit in, just be accepted somewhere. Right. And, and then all of a sudden I'm doing a one 80, right.

Samantha 41:05

Yeah. And yeah, how it's, would you say that was the toughest part of leaving? Tougher than the ideology and everything was just like, rebuilding trust and relationships? Or what was the toughest part? I don't want to put anything in here.

Ernest 41:21

I think the toughest part was just, trying to forget everything, right? Trying to forget everything and to prove to everybody else that I wasn't like that anymore. You know what I mean? That was the meat and potatoes of it, right? I didn't really care about, that's the thing, I didn't really give a fuck about anybody else. It was, I was in it for me, right? And at that point, and It was in it for me and I was just in it to like, just belong somewhere, again, just trying to belong somewhere and I mean it was through that I've, it's kinda, it's weird, it's like I found who I am trying to fit in, right? And now it's, it's, honestly, you're right. If I didn't go through all that back then, I wouldn't be who I am today. I'm pretty happy with who I am today, right? There can, there's always room for improvement, right? But in my next life, I'll do it. Right.

Samantha 42:09

Is there anything that you want to touch on that we might have missed or didn't? Didn't talk about as in depth that you would have liked to, or anything that you want to plug.

Ernest 42:24

No, I just again, I just I really think that in today's society and the way things are today, I think that you know what you what your organization is doing is really good. And, reaching out to guys like myself, have a story to tell and getting us to share. I mean, I like that. And I think we need to we need to focus on getting to people before they, before, before they start harnessing these views, right? Get to them early, right? Just be like, hey, look, you may think it's okay to tell a joke like this, but guess what? Down the road, you may, it may open doors, just it could open doors to other ways of thinking that aren't necessarily, good for you, right? You know what I mean? Like, just talking to kids about fucking hate. Like,

Samantha 43:06

I, I really love that you said that, because I will be in social situations with people, and someone will make a joke, like, they'll make a racist, or just a generally shitty joke, and I'm like, hey, that's not funny, like, I know what it's like to take that joke to the fullest extent that you can. To where it's not a joke anymore and everyone be like, oh, you're overreacting. I didn't mean it You know, you should know that and there's just a kind of like Sure, I might know that but the person who overheard you or the kid who's with their parents who's overhearing you Might not know that and

Ernest 43:38

Well, that's the thing.

Samantha 43:39

Yeah. I

Ernest 43:40

Yeah. That's what I wanted to touch on. It's like, I got, I know people, even to this day, that fucking make jokes like that. And it's like, I just kind of bite my tongue at it. And, it's like, and that's the thing like and that's the other group of people I'd like to reach is like, I mean I work in construction, right? And I can't tell you the amount of racism that's on a fucking job site. It's crazy, right?

Samantha 44:01

believe it.

Ernest 44:02

But these people don't think they're racist. They just say racist shit. I mean it's like really? Holy fuck.

Jamie 44:08

Well, it's like that, it's like that old adage, I'm not racist, but.

Ernest 44:11

well, that's what I remember. I said that right. Anything but after anything is usually,

Samantha 44:15

exactly what you claim it's not.

Jamie 44:18

my, my

Ernest 44:18

right there. You're just justifying your own poor bad behavior, right? Like,

Samantha 44:23

Well, I think it's wild, like, I don't know, maybe this is a conversation for a different time, but, like, construction sites and stuff like that, where, like, they'll kind of make these jokes and, like, well, I can't be racist and it's, like, it's sort of, this is such a weird thing to drop into this. I'm definitely gonna edit this out, but, like, Race is the distraction from the class divide where, like, you want to believe, like, oh, it's, I'm a poor white person, but I'm better than that poor black person. It's race that separates us.

Ernest 44:57

it's a bunch of rich white people pitting everybody against each other. So, that's I think that's what you're saying, right? Like, and it keeps the racial divide going, right? And it keeps racism alive. Right?

Samantha 45:10

and these Or, like, financially, and just, like, poor circumstantially, kids that get knocked into this stuff. It's like, I don't think they understand that, like, just as you feel outcast in society, and as if you feel like you're replaceable and you don't really mean much, it's the same exact way in the movement. You're just around a bunch of white people now that don't give a shit about you.

Ernest 45:32

Yeah, exactly.

Samantha 45:33

It's such a weird, like, it's class. The higher class you are, you can think whatever the fuck you want, and you can buy whatever ticket you need out of trouble, but when you are a poor person who doesn't have those resources, it's a lot easier to blame race, because you have to believe that you're special, because society tells you're not. But then when you get into the movement, you find out, like, oh, that poor kid, we'll let him go. by the ghost gun. We'll let him get radicalized. We'll let him be the one who marches in the rallies and has to end up fighting people.

Ernest 46:06

that's what fascists do, that's what fascists do

Samantha 46:10

that is pretty much the long and short of it, isn't it?

Ernest 46:13

Right. It's say, let's let's send the poor kids off to die and we'll just you know Reap the benefits of that.

Jamie 46:20

Is there anything you, sorry, Sam

Samantha 46:22

No, you're good.

Jamie 46:23

Is there anything you missed from the, from your, I know it sounds strange, but is there anything you missed from that period of being

Ernest 46:28

Nah. Nah, I found the same kind of camaraderie amongst I found real camaraderie I should say Amongst the people I became friends with. I mean, other than the people like yourself, Jim, and a couple other people that I missed, yeah, I didn't miss anything. I was like, I was just so fucking dumb with it.

Jamie 46:46

So dumb.

Ernest 46:47

I was like, it was like, literally I was always in a state of anxiety and and then as you well know, Jim, I would go out of my way to fucking drink more than anybody. And it was again, like, that's just a way of Dealing with the anxiety that I always felt, of always feeling like I was walking on eggshells. Cause I mean, it just, it always seemed like everybody was trying to outdo the other guy. There was no real sense of camaraderie there. Everybody was suspicious of that guy. Oh, that guy's Combat 18. And, oh, well, Blood and Honor and Combat 18 are at war. It's like, holy fuck, what the hell do I care?

Samantha 47:20

I think

Ernest 47:20

you know what I mean?

Samantha 47:22

That's such a great reminder. I think something that a lot of

Ernest 47:25

So much infighting, there was no camaraderie, everybody was in it for themselves. It's just, there was a bunch of people around, a bunch of people that hung around together that were all in it for themselves.

Samantha 47:35

yeah, a lot of people when we ask them that question, it is the friendship. It is feeling special. Feeling special is what a lot of people have. But I think you bring up a really good point that like it's all under a false pretense, like you're not actually friends, you have nothing. And even the people that you do have things in common with, There would still be so much work internally that you would have to do to actually make a connection with this person legitimately. Like, like you said, when you had left, I don't, were you guys able to maintain contact or you lost contact for a while?

Ernest 48:06

Yeah, no we lost contact for 19 years, like, I've literally been in contact with Jimmy, like, in the last few months. Ha!

Jamie 48:14

I remember like, I remember when you left, I was kind of like, nah, whatever. Good for him. Don't really give a shit about her any now. Sadly at that time, that mindset of thinking, well, you know, fuck him. He wants to, we can leave.

Samantha 48:27

How, what, when you left, Jamie, did you think about Ernia or anyone else who had left prior to you at all? Or was it still the same, like, kind of how we're discussing, like, fuck you, I got mine. Fuck you, I'm leaving.

Jamie 48:40

Yeah. Fuck you. I'm leaving. I didn't want anything to do with anybody. Nobody, nothing. No, no, no movement, no people, no music, no jokes. I shut myself off in a bubble for like, you know, 10 to 12 to 15 years, nothing to do, I didn't, I wouldn't even read anything

Samantha 48:56

kept growing.

Jamie 48:57

within that space. And yeah, like I didn't, I didn't want to read any right wing shit through school.

Samantha 49:07

Oh yeah.

Jamie 49:07

we put out countless papers on this stuff. For me, it was like, no, I don't want to read it. I don't want to, I don't want to think about it. I don't want to rehash old ideas or think about what I did. And, you know, for me, that was, it was dead. Absolutely dead.

Samantha 49:22

do you think having that space is what made you able to re enter it now and have the conversations you're having now?

Jamie 49:30

definitely, definitely. Because now I can go back and I can be more reflective on, on, you know, what I did. And, you know, how I need to be accountable. And then I can go back and see where I went wrong. And how I got pulled in. Yeah, so it's much easier. There was a little time period where I was doing some research on music and I was reading the lyrics. I was writing a paper on, on lyrics, music and lyrics, and there was a period there where I got really stressed out and my anxiety was through the fucking roof. But then I stepped back. I'm like, Hey, listen, this isn't you anymore. You know, these lyrics are garbage.

Samantha 50:02

Yeah.

Jamie 50:03

just, let's look at it from that viewpoint. but yeah, about two weeks it was really rough, but then I'm like, you know what? This isn't you, man. This isn't you, Jamie. This isn't your thought process. What you're doing now, positive. Right.

Samantha 50:15

Yeah, it is weird and I think I feel like it's worth not reiterating, but just kind of leaving this thing on that like, this is just for our listeners or for anyone who's in the far right that is about to be like, oh, so when you listen, you get caught back up into it. That's because that's the real you like, no what

Ernest 50:32

That's trauma.

Samantha 50:33

is thank you. Okay,

Ernest 50:34

It's fucking trauma. I have it too. Like I've said it a million times I'll never forget some of these fucking lyrics and me personally the way I deal with it Like I play music so I literally rip these bands off. I take their riffs and make my own fucking songs out of them, right? It's Fuck them.

Samantha 50:51

Yeah,

Ernest 50:52

You said it. So eloquently jim. Fuck them.

Jamie 50:54

And you're right. It is trauma. It is trauma.

Samantha 50:58

I, I think that's, it's, when it's burned into your brain like that in such a way that like, it almost feels compulsory to react in certain ways, it almost feels like you have to like physically shake your body out of it, like, yeah, that's fucking trauma. I really feel for the people that are still in the movement and don't realize how, on a cellular level, they're fucked up. But if they ever want to leave, if you're listening to this and you're, even feel like challenging yourself, feel free to give us a little chat and we'll we'll talk to you. But anyway yeah. Do you guys have anything else that you want to say or touch on or think about? And for what it's worth, Ernest, I am sure this will not be the time. That we're chatting with you, like you are such a good hang, you are such a good storyteller,

Ernest 51:46

I'm just a working class guy, I'm just, a regular everyday dude with a grade 10 education, I don't know how to talk intellectual, the intellectuals really, but I could talk to regular people, I could talk to regular people for sure.

Samantha 51:58

I think I really think you're selling yourself short dude, I

Ernest 52:02

Well,

Jamie 52:04

Yeah.

Samantha 52:04

And feel free if that's who you need to be for yourself, but there's no doubt in my mind that you could reach literally anyone that you sat down with you're such a like Sincere dude, like it's you're good.

Ernest 52:18

it's funny, I talked to a few of my buddies for the last few years about doing this, and reaching out and doing it, and I never did it. And then, now I've, now here I am, I actually did it. So, where I go from here, I mean, sky's the limit, I guess.

Samantha 52:31

is it scary? Was it weird? Were you

Ernest 52:33

Well,

Samantha 52:34

were you nervous about it?

Ernest 52:35

Even up until this morning, I was like, holy fuck, I'm actually doing this, right? Oh, am I going to do a good job? Because, lots of people are going to hear this. But like I said, we had a couple conversations before, I've heard other formers, give their testimony and whatnot, I didn't want to regurgitate any old talking points, right? I just kind of wanted to focus on, my story, more or less. I was a fucked up kid from surrey with low self esteem That didn't have a lot of friends that got bullied that got picked up by these guys that got a false sense of power led me to do stupid shit, it got to the point where I got too far involved that I, it was like, I'm just done with it, right? Like I, it was, it, when it got real, I didn't want nothing to do with it no more, right? So yeah, okay, so I was a coward and I walked away, probably the smartest thing I ever fucking did, right? Probably because I was, because I, absolutely, you start playing with fucking guns and all the rest of it, like, yeah, no, I'm done. Like, that's just not, that's not for me. And that's more than I want more than I ever wanted. That's what I realized. I mean, I thought I did I told everybody I did but at the end of the day when it was real I didn't and I have a feeling that a lot of people that are still involved in the movement today are exactly that way They feel exactly the same way as I do fit into the exact same category They're just too afraid to leave or they're too fucking stupid one of the two,

Samantha 53:53

I agree. I but I think also like right the movement does that to you though They make you feel like once you're in for like they have this weird like blood in blood out Like if you leave it's in a body bag like you're in this for life and if you try and leave we'll get you we'll catch you and it's like it's scary. It is absolutely terrifying and it takes a lot of work and sometimes you lose a lot Sometimes you have really bad days But I think we can all agree that this side is I'd say it's a metric fucked on better

Ernest 54:23

you know my tattoos may be covered up, but they're always going to be there You know if those scars will always be there Right? And it's, it always in the back of my mind. So, like I said, where I go from here, now that I've done this, now that I've started this journey, right? Like, maybe maybe this is the way for me. Who knows, right?

Jamie 54:42

Have you have you forgived yourself, Ernie?

Ernest 54:44

Yeah. I mean, I mean, there's some things, there's some things that regrettably, I don't think I could ever forgive myself for. But I deal with it because I know now that, I know at the end of the day now that I'm a good person. Right? And I'm doing the best I can, with what I got, with what's left of my life, right? I mean, I'm just thankful that I never did anything that I should be in jail for the rest of my life or something like that. Like, I never did anything like that. Thank goodness. I couldn't, I'm not that type of person. I couldn't live with that on my conscience. You know what I mean? But I mean, nonetheless, I mean, we were all involved in fucking horrible shit. Horrible, for instance, is that, I mean, let sleeping dogs lie, but I mean, as far as penance goes, I mean, this is, I mean, this is the best thing that I can think of. I mean, bashing the fash on the street was one thing when I was younger, but now, even that, it's like, I think there's got to be a new way to reach people. You know what I mean? It's, you know what I mean? Like when you, it's like I was talking before, like just trying to get to regular people, if you slam them down, I mean, it's almost like we need to be more compassionate about it, you know what I mean? Compassionate in the sense, like, I don't know, maybe that's the wrong word, edit this out. Maybe it's the wrong word, but you know what, I think I know? what I'm getting at here, right? Like, I deserved I mean, I didn't deserve shit, but I got a chance, to prove to change, right? I think everybody does, okay, that's what I mean. Everybody deserves a chance to change, and they need an outlet for it. That's what I was getting at.

Samantha 56:14

yeah, and I think what you're hitting on is also something that, like, everyone in every political party is getting wrong, right? Like, the left claims to be super, like, we're about rehabilitation and we're being better. It's like, then why are you criminalizing people who need help? They don't need jail time, they need help. They don't need to be ostracized by society. In fact, that's what got them in trouble in the first place.

Ernest 56:37

Everybody's holier than thou right? I think it's you know, it's just because you know Where I went with my you know with my life back then, you know is so especially in today's society is so fucking taboo, right? It's I mean, I mean again, right like, Like I said, if they're that interested, they can, I mean, I've, I explained myself 20 years, 19 years ago. I don't need to explain myself anymore. I mean, I'm explaining myself right now in this way. I don't need to justify to anybody on the street,

Samantha 57:06

I was going to say, you're not doing this for. Washington Post, you're doing this for the guy listening that needs to hear you.

Ernest 57:13

Yeah. The guy who can relate to me, the guy that, the guy that doesn't understand big words or sort of the person who doesn't understand big words, you know what I mean? Like just somebody that, you know. No, I'm just a working class guy that, went through some shit and maybe I got a story to tell and maybe somebody can relate to it. Right.

Samantha 57:34

Oh, you definitely got a story to tell how was the interview? Is it okay?

Ernest 57:38

Oh, it was fine. I enjoyed it. I was, it wasn't really what I expected. It was more or less just like a big conversation, which I really liked. I was super nervous that I wasn't going to, I was making, sitting here, making cliff notes and really, it was just I just needed to be my. My wonderful self

Jamie 57:54

Well, you did a great job.

Samantha 57:55

Truly. Yeah, we're this. We are not here to crucify anyone. So I really, I hope that you did get something out of this. I learned a lot. I think you're a really cool dude. But yeah I think if it's cool with you guys, I think we can leave it there for now.

Ernest 58:11

yeah. No, i'm good with it. sam. Thanks for your time. Jim fucking always a pleasure my man

Jamie 58:16

Good.

Samantha 58:17

I hope that this was okay for you

Ernest 58:19

Well, it's definitely a start There's no doubt about it. It's definitely a start and I'd like again I'm encouraged to do this again. Do something like it again. Do more. Let's go.

Jamie 58:29

Mhm.

Ernest 58:31

go. Okay.

Samantha 58:32

All right. guys for talking. Thank you for being here.

Jamie 58:37

For sure.

Ernest 58:37

All right. Cheers.

Samantha 58:39

Bye y'all.