Liz

Liz talks to Angela and Lauren about her journey into, and out of, violent extremism.

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Transcript

Angela 0:13

Hi, you're listening to Season 3, Episode 5 of The Daily Former. This season, we're interviewing formers themselves, letting them tell their stories on their terms, and asking questions that we get from our friends in the Discord. People writing in and things we want to know about in general about their experience. My name is Angela and today I'm here with Lauren and we're talking to Liz. Liz has been in our orbit and around us for years until a short time ago when we finally made contact and realized we're such a good fit. Liz is our Ask a Former Columnist and Roundtable host. How are you, Liz?

Liz 0:57

Hi, I'm fine. How are you?

Angela 1:00

Doing well. It's great to have you here with us.

Liz 1:04

It's great to be here.

Angela 1:06

To start out, Liz. Can you tell us a little about your background? The broad strokes. What was your family like? And if you're comfortable, a general location of where you grew up.

Liz 1:19

I grew up in the suburbs of Toronto, Northeast Scarborough specifically. And my upbringing was in many ways, very much the same as any other suburban kid. I played in the park a lot. I rode my bike a lot, went to the community school at that point in time. It was safe. for or assumed safe for kids to just like walk to school by themselves. Like I was walking to school by myself in grade one when I was six years old. And we live in a pretty different world with different expectations these days. But, often say to people that. What my life looked like on paper, if, if I just rhymed out, yeah, I was the honor roll kid. I was the one who was, hitting the books extra hard. I did, a bunch of extracurricular activities that, looking back It's pretty fun and cool. And you look at all that on paper, like me becoming extremist, like it just, it seems really unlikely. It seems like it shouldn't have happened, but it did happen. And unfortunately, I did have things that were going on behind the closed doors that have been hard for me to talk about and I've become more open as time goes on, specifically since my father passed away. It's like I wasn't willing to speak about his alcoholism while he was still alive, for example. Those are things, and also growing up in a hoarder household, like those are things that a lot of people didn't see. They saw the kid getting the straight A's, they didn't see the kid going home to a house that was cluttered and dusty and always had a bug infestation. so I had a lot of things that, although hidden, were still destabilizing for me and left me feeling lost and angry and disconnected from the people around me. And, I had a lot of, I guess what they call vulnerability factors that. Ended up leading me into this path that we've all been down, unfortunately.

Lauren 3:27

Yeah, I'm going to say that definitely living in chaos is extremely hard to do and also very hard to pull straight A's in school when you're doing when you're going through that. Hey, good on you. But at the same time difficult. So what I'm wondering, is it fair to say that, you were looking for some kind of structure. during all the chaos. Thanks.

Liz 3:50

the word I would use. I would, I was definitely looking for answers to questions that I had that no one was answering. Which I think is true for a lot of us. And I was also looking for empowerment. I think I was looking for someone to validate the anger that I felt, because I was taught to be the people pleaser, I was taught that, you always have to be polite, you always have to be quiet, those things that in particular. Women and girls of the 70s and 80s and 90s were taught and I wanted the permission to be able to just say, you know what, fuck this, fuck all of this, fuck you and that was, that was a big deal to me and I really, I have this one memory in particular, when I was walking to school and this was, in high school, And I was thinking about how I was getting bullied. At school, and I was in the process of becoming radicalized, excuse me, and I had this moment of thinking like, you know what, if this is a game they want to play, I'm not nice anymore. Screw them. Screw all this. And I needed that. I preferably would have needed that from a different source than racist extremists. I wish I would have had that from a positive, affirming person or entity, I suppose you could say like that it gave me some internal structure of how I was dealing with the world, as far as my mindset was going.

Angela 5:27

So much of what you shared. Resonates on such a deep level, because I'm hearing of the same things that, my spirit and soul were crying out for as a young person. I'm hearing disenfranchisement. I'm hearing adverse childhood experiences when you talk about It looks fine on paper, but nobody sees. under the hood of what's actually happening and the ripple effects it had on you. What kind of relationship did you have with your parents? You mentioned alcoholism and hoarding. did you feel the freedom to communicate any of your feelings or to ask for support or help

Liz 6:20

we had some challenges around what was expected of us as a family? And like, how do we, how do we interact and be with each other and all that? my father, Came in and it took me decades into adulthood to really understand this, but he came into life with a tremendous amount of trauma. My parents were older when they had me. So there's this bit of a generational disconnect, but he was, a young boy during World War II in Liverpool, England. And he told me stories. Of like playing in houses that were bombed out like playing in the rubble and he's talked about having to, go into the bomb shelters and, that the government gave everybody gas masks to wear because there was Fear of, nerve gas and stuff But, he he comes into this new life in a peaceful environment with all these memories and thoughts that if there had been a chemical bomb, I wouldn't have made it, He was a closed wall for a lot of my childhood and on the one hand he would take me to the park. He would do those kinds of fun parent things with me. But when it came to deeper issues around, things being emotionally fraught in my life and needing advice and guidance. that connection was very minimal, it wasn't there, and as I got older his alcoholism got worse, and he would, keep those outward appearances going, but as soon as he'd get in, from work, he'd have dinner, hit the bottle, and he'd be like passed out on the couch. I know it put a lot of stress on my mom and we had a very, and still do have a very intense relationship it took me a long time into adulthood and frankly, not until I became a parent myself to really see hey, wait a minute, that wasn't a healthy way that, she was doing this and that. And one of the issues that I had, around the bullying in high school in particular was that we had a huge population shift, like demographic shift, in our community within just a few years, and there were a lot of new Canadians that moved to our community, I suddenly went from being a member of, The dominant, racial, cultural, religious, ethnic, whatever label you want to attach to it group in my community to, in some classes, I was like the only white kid there and people would how it is with bullying, they find what's different about you and they'll pick at that. I. Had these kids at school that would, reference my skin color when they were bullying me. And I would try to talk to my parents about that. And that was just so far outside of their personal experience. Of the world that they were just like, we don't, what are you even talking about? they couldn't get it. It was really just a big disconnect and they were just lost about how to help me. And I was lost about how to better communicate with them

Lauren 9:37

I like the way you described the demographic at the time, because my dad actually, around the same time in the 80s was serving on the police force in Toronto. I remember him saying like a lot of new Canadians coming in at the time, but I am happy that you mentioned that when it comes to bullying, it's anything different. Really, it could have been anything. It just happened to be skin color at that time.

Liz 9:56

Yeah. It could have been all kinds of things. And skin color just happened to be the thing. I honestly don't think it was just because I was white when I was younger I was very pale, just one of those people that, you shine a light on and it like blinds your eyes like it was and and I had very dark hair as well, which would just like added to the effect and, and so people are just like that, people would come up to me and go What's up with you? Are you ill? What's going on? And it was just very uncomfortable. And it was like a very different, I guess just a set of characteristics that, for some of the people who were encountering me in my school had never encountered in their life So it was new for

Angela 10:41

and as children, we really don't have the decorum to ask in a more appropriate, less aggressive, way. Like how many times do you see little kids just have wildly inappropriate things fly out of their mouths?

Liz 11:02

All the time. Yeah. Yeah,

Angela 11:07

never met too terribly many parents that raise their kids with an intention of kindness. It's almost like an afterthought of, yeah, of course, you're supposed to be nice and kind, but who really spends time explaining the repercussions of a lack of kindness to their children And as children, we don't give a shit about other people's feelings. It's more I think more of your experience resonating with some of my own just like. Lauren was saying, whatever's different is fair target in an open game.

Lauren 11:46

And I think also what Liz was talking about a little bit earlier in terms of, being told, oh, be the good girl, behave yourself, be the better person, yadda. I was told all the same shit, I just didn't listen very well. It doesn't help, because, like, how do you stand up for yourself? Because if you ignore it, they keep doing it, right?

Angela 12:01

And who is going to sit there and be like, that really hurts my feelings, could you please not talk to me like that or call me those names? That simply is not the way the world operates. You would be made fun of even more and bullied even more. I feel if you approach something at that age like that so Liz paint the picture of like when you first realized The violent far right existed and long it took for you to become mentally invested in it.

Liz 12:44

Interestingly, we learned about the KKK in school. But when I was first. exposed to the ideas and the literature of the group that I joined, I didn't immediately make that connection that, Oh, this is the same thing. This is this bad thing because, the types of propaganda that they put out and The, I was recruited in way before the Internet was even an idea amongst the general population. I got flyers from a friend at school and it was after I had been complaining about. being bullied and the focus on my skin color. And I was just saying I don't get it. I don't understand this. I don't know how to stop this. I don't know what to do about it. And he said, I belong to this organization and you might be interested. And they can advocate for you. And so he gave me like a couple of flyers and. It said the same BS that you see all the time. It really hasn't changed much in 30 years, we are just a group of ordinary Canadian men and women who are promoting traditional ideas and cultural values, like all that kind of stuff. So I didn't have an internet to look up things. There was a lot of information in that early stage that missed me and the main thing that I had was these flyers. And so I wrote away for more information. They started sending me magazines. They had like a. A voice hotline that the anti racists called a hate line, which was actually more aptly named, I think. And so I would call and listen to the messages on their hate line. And, and I just kept thinking like, all this makes sense. All this resonates with what I've been experiencing. And I am a concerned Canadian too, and I'm concerned about my country. And I want. the future generations to have the best possible opportunities and all of that. And I certainly connected it with the KKK later on, And by the time I started making those connections, yes, the group that I belong to had direct connections to the KKK, contemporary KKK, I, perfectly blunt, I didn't care then. By then it was too late. I already saw it as this is the solution. this is the way forward. This is what I'm emotionally invested in. and I have to say, even though this was like all analog, it still happened really fast. it happened so fast that it really took me until years after I disengaged to really come to terms with it. Consuming the propaganda, I was radicalized reading these magazines and flyers in my bedroom by myself, just taking it in. And I was already primed, just being a white person in Toronto in the 80s. You already have a base level of racism that you're operating from and so like I, I was already primed to accept these ideas and because there were no checks and balances for me and my parents had no idea that I was getting this mail because I would get home from school first before they'd get home from work and I'd like, Take it up to my room. So they had no idea that stuff was even coming into their house.

Angela 16:13

so much of your experience, which even though I know you, I wouldn't just assume that our experience is the same. We come from different countries, different backgrounds, but so much of what you're sharing is so similar and resonates so deeply. And. I want to carry that over to our listeners. We hear a lot about the different iterations of the Violent Far you're obviously a Gen Xer, like myself. But there are others who did have. Different lives growing up than we did. It's always been important to me to make that connection that even though maybe some of the physical action or experience may be the same, those underlying feelings. What being involved was doing for us, even if we didn't realize it, some kind of emotional fulfillment for a time. Can you talk a little bit about what it felt like?

Liz 17:21

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, it's something I talk a lot about right now is what hate feels like when you're in that honeymoon phase of it, because I see so many people now engaging with hateful ideas, hateful rhetoric, hateful organizations, And. I get the sense, and this is not based on empirical evidence, this is just, sixth sense kind of thing, that they are engaging with this stuff thinking that, if this was wrong for me to do, I would feel bad. that they're using this emotional compass to guide. This And I just, I think that really speaks to just how insidious this all is. that you can be so convinced that it's true. That this is the most important, most exciting, best thing that's ever happened to me is joining a hate group.

Lauren 18:30

I don't know about you all, but what I heard in that a little bit was like that rebellion piece where it's shove it in the face of the people who wronged you before. I remember that was my mentality at the time.

Angela 18:39

And let's be honest, that does feel exciting when you feel like you're taking a physical action But also, I think it speaks a lot to what must have been going on with our moral compasses at that time. And what we were taught was right and wrong versus What we actually witness with our own eyes and then you add the layer of socialization in where You said, you know to an extent You already had some racism and that's a reality for many of us we are socialized to be that way and are left with a choice to actively fight that or not our entire lives and you add in that shaky moral compass that we're just learning to flex. We don't know if that compass is right or guiding us in the right direction. And it reminds me of one of our earlier guests in the season who mentioned that he felt like he was trying to accomplish something good and positive while he was involved. But it ended up Not being good or positive at all. It was horrible for him, for society, for everyone, that says a lot. during this time, did you feel like you were exploited by the group or taken advantage of?

Liz 20:23

Again, it took me a long time to come to terms with it, to the full extent of it, but I was definitely groomed. And I started off with just getting this information in the mail and hanging out with the skinheads at my high school that was bad enough, that was damaging enough, but it really wasn't until I, met with leadership of the group and they started saying Hey, you obviously have talents, you're smarter than the teachers and the parents in your life because they don't know what's going on and, it's not quite the same as cults where, you imagine, being dragged away to a commune but, they do create this, mental separation between you and everyone else that's around you in your daily life, and they tell you, you know what's going on, no one else does, and, and they at least for me, as this, very shy, very naive kid who didn't feel in control of much, just really tried to build up my self esteem and said you're really smart, you're really brave to, do this and that. And yeah, I got mentally conditioned by them, to the point that, regardless of anything else that was going on in my life, the stuff, the activities and people that were connected with the quote, unquote, movement were my priority. they were where I put my most energy. They were what I put my focus on. And. it really wasn't until I was, mentally in the headspace of wanting to get out of the movement that I learned that, there was, all this stuff that they'd been telling me that I was regurgitating on, hate line messages and in articles and to news media interviews that I was doing. I was saying like, Oh, our group wasn't involved with this illegal activity or our group didn't do that And then suddenly they were telling me that thing that we told you before, actually, and I realized like that they had been lying, to my face and manipulating me so that I would do. What they wanted and I would put out the messaging that they wanted that was a hard moment to realize that these people that I thought were my friends were in fact, using me and using everybody else around them they were using me to further the ends of their organization and you know what they wanted.

Angela 23:02

right. It really is difficult to have perception of those kind of things when you're in the middle of it. It really takes the ability, the space, the luxury of being outside of it and observing it, not as a participating member, to see You're isolated and you're built up only to be puppeteered with the fear of being knocked back down. When you have those realizations it can be like a punch in the gut. Thank you for sharing that.

Lauren 23:48

I've had enough people ask me over the years, oh, but that doesn't make sense. Like, where's the logic in that? And I'm like, it's not supposed to make sense. Because the thing is, logic and feelings are two different things that people experience. you guys also reminded me of something that, my former therapist had showed me once. So he wrote something on, a small sheet of paper, and he holds it, right close to my face. He's okay, read that. And I'm like, the fuck am I supposed to be reading? I can't make it out. And he's because it's too close to you.

Angela 24:14

Yes, that's such a good way to bring that home, and I fully agree. Liz, we've talked about your family, growing up, what you were feeling and experiencing at the time that you got involved. When did the veil start to lift? Was there one moment or experience

Liz 24:39

it was a slow burn that. up to a critical moment, I had been roped into being part of a documentary that, was, funded by one of Canada's. National, TV networks at that time. It was, again, pre internet, but, still a very high profile project, it was a big deal. And for some of the, activities and things that I was engaged in at that time, having this film crew following me around with you've got to imagine like 1990s tech. And for a young person, that's like intimidating, right? And, really they ended up being like, the first people who were holding me accountable to any degree for what I was doing and engaging in. they would follow us around for a bit while we were like actively doing stuff. including so when we were with you at this particular restaurant yesterday, and this person tossed up a Nazi salute and got everyone in the restaurant angry, what did you think about that? How do you reconcile that? what are your thoughts and opinions and beliefs about this? when they were asking me these questions like I was taking it like super seriously and, trying to really do the mental gymnastics to create an acceptable answer and also feeling they were making me realize some, oh shit kind of moments. over time. I was starting to notice people were totally fine with Nazi salutes on camera and totally fine showing that they have pictures of Hitler hanging on the wall in their house and stuff

Angela 26:23

So did this present, an internal struggle for you that you were being asked these questions that ultimately it seems like you had no choice but to reflect on the reality of the answers?

Liz 26:39

it was like a slow burn thing. So I just felt I'm not okay with this particular thing, but I'm okay with everything else. and then I started becoming more. aware of my own personal behavior and how I was treating the people who were in my life. And I was really not living up to anyone's idea of an acceptable standard. I was not being a good person to the people around me. and that all, led up to this, party that I went to, I was really excited to go to the party and, see everybody there. We were just hanging out at someone's apartment and sitting around and an interview came on with another person who had been in the group that we were in. But had left, they were getting, media attention at that time because they were shining light on some pretty unsavory things that had happened. So this was an extended interview with that person, and And I had this moment of, Just looking around the room at everybody there because we were all crammed into the living room at that point to watch the TV there were hardened skinheads in that room. There were strippers in that room. There were like grandparents in that room. There were some of the clean cut university kids like myself were in that room. And I thought the only thing that we have in common. The only reason we're in this room together is because of who we hate. That's it. I would never cross paths with these people if it weren't for the fact that we shared the same hatred. And I just had this thought that I don't want hate to be the thing that defines my life. I felt in that moment, like something in my brain just broke and. was feeling this anxiety because I thought, I'm in this room full of these hateful people, some of whom had been violent, and I knew, what their criminal records were, and I don't want to let on accidentally what I'm thinking right now, I don't want any of them to know, what I'm thinking and feeling, and, and it was just really hard to get through the rest of that party And just pretend and they were still at that point in time, they were still my friends and mentors and so on, but I just felt I don't know what else there is. I, I really don't know what else there is, but I know that this isn't it.

Angela 29:15

That is so powerful, Liz, There's always that one moment where you think something that's so anti or counter What you're living at the moment that it shuttles you right into this huge I bet everybody knows what I'm thinking

Liz 29:34

it was, I think, like I said, I had these, mini moments and things leading up to this, where, I was still trying to tell myself it's okay. But no, that was really the moment where I'm like, no, this is effing not okay. This is really, this is not okay. I really think I have a lot to be grateful for that. I had all of these many moments leading up to that. And I should also add to that, I was studying at university and I did have some physical distance from at least most of the people in the group I was in. I was still writing things for them. I was still, involved in, But at the same time, I was taking classes called women's studies. I was taking, very. Progressive, open minded kind of classes, and I think those, as well, also gave me the opportunity to, just consider other points of view and other ideas and other ways of, looking at the world and experiencing things and, looking at, women's movements. women as leaders and, and not just qualified leaders that are contained and defined by the men around them, those were new concepts and new ideas for me. So I think all of that kind of played into me having that moment of yeah, no, not. No, I can't. I can't keep doing this.

Lauren 31:02

for me, I've never taken a women's studies course in school or anything, but, what I can imagine is what you learned in there is quite different than what the group thought feminism was at the time,

Liz 31:12

Very different. Very different. Yeah.

Angela 31:15

I totally get what you're saying. You were experiencing leaders who created actual change in the environment around them by inspiring people. And, Being charismatic and rising as leaders, I remember learning about different. movements of women like you were talking about that go back centuries and it's empowering, it's exciting, it's learning about that. I was already disengaged, but still unwinding and shedding the beliefs when I was learning about those things and taking those courses, and they were monumental for me, and in who I am today, I don't think I would be sitting here having this conversation had I not, learned and experienced those things. I would like to pick your brain sometime, about the collision of what the violent far right teaches about women and the expectations versus the liberation of what you were learning about the power of women and The feminine, Is there anything that is related to your time involved in the violent far right that you're proud of? That you walked away with?

Liz 32:45

that feels like an awkward question to

Angela 32:47

It is! It is.

Liz 32:49

awkward, and I do, I would have to say yes, actually. There, would be two things that I was most proud of. I think, the one thing and the, that is the main thing is that, I went from being, like I said before, this naive, shy, very passive kid to being able to hold my own. Around these violent, misogynistic men and I'm still, a quiet person in many respects, I was able to hold my own in quiet ways. Like I, I, I remember one time there was this guy that came up to me at a meeting that I'd spoken at and started saying, these, vile things about, I want to get you alone in a room, and what I want to do to you, and, really. And I, made eye contact, and I just stared at him. And that's it. And he eventually just got, beat red in the face and scurried off. and it's like the kid that I was before couldn't have done that. There's, those sorts of things that, I've been able to carry forward in my life as just, things that, unfortunately, and I have to emphasize that it is unfortunate that I did not learn these things through a positive, outlet, but, learning how to stand up for myself in ways that felt true to me and, learning how to hold my own I'm also proud of myself. for having the insight and having the courage to ask questions, even though it took me a long time to get to that point, that there are lots of people who go their entire lives without asking those questions and making the changes and getting out. And, developing critical thinking skills the hardest way possible. I developed those and I'm so I'm proud of those things. I feel weird using the word proud. I don't In my day to day life think yeah, I'm proud that I gained these life skills during this experience but, those are certainly things that like came out in my favor through all of it.

Lauren 35:10

it's actually interesting. You mentioned that to, learning how to stand up for yourself when you were there, because a lot of us actually weren't taught that when we were kids

Liz 35:16

Yeah.

Angela 35:17

Yes.

Liz 35:18

Healthy boundaries.

Angela 35:21

it is an awkward question. It's meant to be. It's meant to be uncomfortable because part of coming out of something like that is being able to look at the whole experience. We, good or bad, are made to feel guilty, which a lot of us deserve to feel guilty for the things we did and what we are involved in. But at the same time, these are positive things. That's almost a slap in the face to the violent far right of, in spite of everything you said and everything you did to me and tried to teach me, I still get to walk out with my head held high, knowing that I have strength of character, knowing that I have respect for myself. For a lot of us, Those were things, like Lauren said, we weren't taught, I feel the same way, answering the question myself, Now I too have confidence. I am proud of. The human that I am, the woman that I am, my drive, what I've learned, what I have, the opportunity to teach others. these are things also honed out of time spent there I am about to make it my mission to demystify that, to make it less awkward, and to make it acceptable for us to say, but this is what I carry out of it, in spite of, or despite. this is also an awkward question. Is there anything that you miss about it?

Liz 37:08

Oh, gosh. Yes, actually. And to be honest, if you had asked me that question 10 years ago, I would have said no, in part because I hadn't done amount of reflection that, 30 years lends you and also because it takes time to be fully honest with yourself about these things. And so I really miss the simple answers that they would give you to the world's Big questions. during the COVID lockdowns, I won't get into all the reasons, but they were very hard on me and my family. would look at the people who were embracing the far right during the lockdowns and embracing these simple answers. And I would think I wish I could embrace those simple answers. life would feel a lot less scary right now. And a lot less stressful if I could embrace those simple answers, and have some group leader you just Believe whatever they were saying. it feels really weird to say yeah, I miss not being curious about anything like I miss just like following orders and listening to people, but the world has just been such a mixed up upside down, difficult place. I would say I also miss the emotions that I spoke about earlier of just like that, that feeling of exhilaration and empowerment that I've never really quite. experience since. I've certainly had moments in my life where I've felt like, wow, this is like really amazing and this is really empowering, but I don't think I can really explain it. It's not quite the same.

Angela 38:54

I want to make clear here, I know that we toss around terms like disengagement and de radicalization but when you decided this is it, I'm done with this. Can you tell us about what that was like, what the experience was, how you went about it?

Liz 39:11

Yeah, again to emphasize the different era aspect of. What I went through, and what you went through too, Angela, that there was nothing like life after hate then That wasn't even an idea there was no roadmap. There was like, no real way to find other people who have done the same thing. And so felt really quite lost. And so I, after that party where I had that moment of I just, I don't want this to be like my guiding life principle anymore. I went to, the associate director of that documentary that I mentioned, And by the way, we're still friends to this day, I went to him and I just said, I need some help. I don't know how to untangle myself from this by myself. I don't know what to do. And there was one activist in the Jewish community in particular. Who had been a thorn in the side of our organization. And, there had been one occasion where he was invited to my university To speak and he was invited specifically because I was causing so much trouble on campus and they wanted to know how to counter hate groups on campus. And I went to his talk and I sat in the front row with my little portable tape recorder, like holding it up, to make sure I get everything that he's saying. And, the people in the room, they knew who I was. Their intentions were they wanted him to point me out in the room so that would give them permission to beat me up. they wanted to assault me and send that message. And so I'm sitting there in the front row and they're like, come on, tell us like, who is she, come on, tell us. And, he refused, he didn't use my name, even though he knew it, he did not point me out, even though I was sitting right in front of him and he saved me from getting my ass kicked. I felt even though the organization painted him to be like, he's like enemy number one I still saw him as someone who was a principled person and he was somebody that. Had shown me in this, way, had, shown me some kindness and frankly, mercy. And so I asked the associate director to, facilitate an introduction? Anyway, fast forward, the introduction was facilitated. I started speaking with him and, he said to me you are going to have to stop doing all of your activities. You're going to have to get away from these people, you cannot continue dating within that scene, you cannot continue being friends with people in that scene, you have to, do a full and complete break. And so we worked together over a period of time, and, he was very demanding, he was not going to take any of my crap. And he's if you're, if you're serious, you will do these things, you will take these steps, you will share these things with me about the organization that we need to know And so I did the best that I could. and it was painful, person I was dating at the time was somebody that I cared about a great deal and breaking up with them was really difficult. It was difficult to try to safely disengage from all the activities that I was doing. And it was convenient that I was in a different city. they would have had to do some work if they wanted to, come and directly confront me. I would just say, I'm, like, really busy with school and, I've got, assignments I have no idea if they thought I was, genuine about that, or if they, sussed out that I was leaving. One of the pivotal moments in that process of, slowly pulling back, was, I came back to Toronto for, the winter break, holidays, and the activist that I was working with, he invited me to come to his office. to have a talk. And I, to this day, I don't know what he had planned. But, he brought me in and sat me down in his office and he was joking, obviously, but he's so you're in the middle of the Jewish conspiracy now. Is it everything that you thought it would be? Like this little office? and I was just like, Oh, my God. and so then

Angela 43:42

to laugh at that, or?

Liz 43:44

I was like, I don't know. And so then he started pushing me. He's you guys are always saying that, you wish that you could debate me about the Holocaust. So debate me, tell me, do it. And I couldn't do it. I could not do it. And, he said, the Toronto Holocaust Education center is just down the hall. Do you want to go in? And I, I don't know why I said yes. I actually don't know why I said yes. I said, yes, and we went, and we waited for a school group to finish going through. And once it was empty, and I think it's it's very important that, to mention that, if anyone's trying to, de radicalize or disengage somebody by taking them to a tolerance center or taking them to a museum, it has to be done with a lot of care. And a lot of thoughts first of all, for the other people who might be in that room, but also for the person themselves, the emotions that I experienced while I was in that room were like nothing that I'd ever felt And just just seeing all this evidence and realizing like only person who is like lesser than anybody else in that room was me I was believing, what I was promoting. And I was a wreck. It was just an emotional wreck. And he escorted me out of the building afterwards. And I just said to him, I just. I just witnessed how Jewish people were systematically stripped of their humanity and yet they still fought with everything they had left to maintain it. And I had everything and I just freely gave my way. I'm getting emotional. And he just looked at me and he just nodded and he said, Yeah, but the beauty of humanity is you can always get it back. And that to me was like the moment of not just playing at this. I'm not just asking questions about whether I can get out of this group. I'm not just saying, I'll take these steps and talk with these people and maybe I'll leave there was like no going back after that moment. It's no, I'm going to do this. I'm going to get my humanity back. And, I'm just, I'm so grateful for that experience and for that insight and for that moment. I think it was after that experience, it was like another, six weeks, and then I finally completed my disengagement, and it was funny because I, I had all of these You know, big steps of things that I did And I was, very worried and scared for my safety and things like that. But my final step of getting out of the movement was, at the time, changing my phone number. And so I changed my phone number to an unlisted number. And some guy I've never met who flipped a switch at Bell Canada somewhere to change my phone number to a new number. And I went to sleep one night, still connected with these people and woke up the next morning and it was done. I was out I've been reflecting on it because it was recently my 30th anniversary of that day. it was such a strange day because I was like, okay, this monumental thing just happened and there's no outer evidence of it and like nothing for me to hang on to. And I felt all off kilter about the whole thing. In retrospect, it was beautiful I immediately, had the privilege and I know not everybody who leaves the far right gets this privilege, but I had the privilege of having a day of peace right off the top. I had the privilege of just being able to go and live my life for a day, even though I didn't really know what that life was yet, but I got to experience that free of these hateful people.

Angela 47:33

That's awesome. And that sounds like such a powerful experience to begin that process. I know that it. You had that day at peace, but it doesn't end there. There's years of unpacking and questioning and

Liz 47:50

decades of unpacking.

Lauren 47:52

funny you mentioned the phone number thing I had to do that too. the people at these phone companies, do they realize how many people they actually help? Because I've known several women and men for that matter, where they've had to change it because of any number of things.

Angela 48:04

So you have shared a lot of really deep stuff with us and we appreciate it and you so much. Just a few more questions, Are you happy today?

Liz 48:17

Oh, that's the big, you said these weren't going to be big, deep questions.

Angela 48:24

I was fibbing.

Liz 48:25

You know what, my, I think depending on the day that you would get me, you'd maybe get a different answer, but No, I'm not happy today. And there are several reasons for that. mainly I think it's because I still feel like I'm playing catch up on my life. And I. Just try as someone who is a former, trying to fit into the world and trying to live my life, I made a really critical mistake of I just leaned back into the people pleasing and I thought, if I just. make myself small and if I'm not a bother to anybody, I don't have anything to contribute anyway. I'm just, I'm this dumb ass person who screwed up. What have I got to say? And I just really built up this way of being in the world that Really, was not in service to myself. And so I feel like I'm just now 30 years out of the movement, just now getting to the point where I feel like I can undo that, that maladaptive coping. Strategy stuff that I took on and, I can have boundaries. I can have opinions. I can have a voice and say these things and do these things and make an impact. I'm worthy of having a good and happy life. So I still feel that I'm not happy because it still feels like such a work in progress. But I suppose I'm happy that I know what the work is, I know what these steps are that I need to take to, build my life back to a level that I want it to be in, I look at other people that I know who have, this warm and, lovely, friendship group or, family that like they're really close to, and I spent decades pushing everybody away. I pushed everybody away. I'm not opening up, I'm just not talking to you and so to make those changes, that's really scary, but it's time.

Angela 50:40

It is. It's time to take up space. You're worthy, and your voice, if it only helps one person. It's worth it.

Lauren 50:51

and the other thing I found, it is fun to take up space, because what I've called myself a people pleaser at any point, not really, but I did allow people to do more than I really should have, like just in terms of like crossing boundaries and shit. But for me, I'm like, you know what, who cares? Sometimes being a dick is absolutely worth it and necessary.

Liz 51:10

That's true.

Angela 51:11

it is. Okay, final question. Is there anything that you want to say or plug before we, end the interview?

Liz 51:21

Yes, a couple of things. I would love to, first of all, I would just love to express gratitude for The work that both of you have done over the years as, as well as Life After Hate as a whole, I just feel that having gone through the whole disengagement process or de radicalization, whatever word you want to use for it, doing that without any roadmap and without having anyone to talk to who has been through that. It's just made me like so appreciative of like how needed and necessary it is and like how much good you're doing for people now who are walking the path that we did. And so I'm just, I'm just like, I feel like every social media post or anything that I do around life after hate is just I am so grateful for these people, but like it truly. And I also wanted to add to it that, to anyone who's listening, who's actually in the movement right now, who's thinking Oh yeah, I have control over this. I can walk away at any time. It's not a big deal. you cannot know, and I'm saying this from very painful lived experiences, you cannot know how these hate groups or extremist groups or whatever are going to impact your life down the road. And I have gone through more pain As a former of getting like blowback from shadows and ghosts from like 20 years ago, 30 years ago than I ever did during the initial disengaging process. if I could time travel back to my past self and said, yo past self, this is what's down the pipe for you. Watch out. I would never have believed it in a million years. Never. I don't want to scare people, but at the same time, I do want to scare people you cannot assume you have control over things that quite frankly, you cannot control, you cannot control how other people are going to react to you, you cannot control, how circumstances are going to play out in your life necessarily. And again, it's, coming back to my gratitude for Life After Hate, I think it's just so important for formers, to have community with one another because, we, these crazy things can come up that the vast majority of people are just going to be like, what are you even talking about? They're not going to be able to relate to it at all, whereas, you can, find people now and say yeah, so this like really weird thing is happening. Has anyone gone through this really weird thing? And chances are, you're going to find people who have gone through a similar weird thing, as far as. Making any kind of plug. I am would just to, raise awareness about a group I'm involved in called Enhancing Social Justice Education. It's very Canada focused right now, but we're, doing work around supporting, school environments was like the main focus, but also work environments too around, How do we hold space and create opportunity for people to, share their, share who they are and what they're about in, workspaces and academic spaces where there has unfortunately been a lot of silencing in recent years. I'm just so excited to be working With those people I've learned a ton the work that I've done has involved like being parachuted in for a one day event or something like that, but being involved in the group and like being part of the organizing and part of the deep conversations that happened behind the scenes has been a real help.

Angela 55:12

It is my honor to be a welcoming, safe space for others who are coming out. Thank you so much for coming on. I hope our listeners enjoyed this interview with Liz, and feel free to let us know how you feel by commenting on our Instagram, Twitter, or joining the Discord and getting in on the conversation. Liz, again, Thank you