Ask A Former- Episode 2

In this session, we answer the questions:

1. What organizations do you support?

2. What kept you in the movement?

3. What do you tell someone who is afraid of being dox'd?

4. How do you know you're a Former?

5. What are the physical traits of the current iterations of the movement?

6. What's with all the gay stuff?

7. How has your story evolved over time?

8. How do you respond when people tell you that they had a bad time and didn't become a Nazi over it?

...and more!

Have a question? Text us here, DM us on social, email us at 
thedailyformer@lifeafterhate.org, get in our discord: https://discord.gg/aBWVS6gggp

Stay curious, friends.

www.thedailyformer.com

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Transcript

Samantha 0:11

Hey, this is Ask a Former, a roundtable discussion where you ask formers questions, we answer them, and hopefully we all feel a little bit more connected. This series accompanies our Ask a Former column. These questions are from social media, email, discord, and in person discussions. There's no question too small or superficial, and we hope you enjoy learning that formers are just people who have to spend the rest of their lives, making sure they don't wave their arms at weird ankles. before we get into the questions, we just have some light housekeeping. This is going to be my last recording with the daily former with life after hate with anything. I don't have any words prepared. It's, I don't see this as a like, goodbye, so long thing. I see this more of like a see you later. I just need to focus on other parts of my life right now. And I love TDF and I respect it a little bit too much to kind of half ass a bunch of things in my life. I would rather whole ass something that I need to prioritize. and TDF is in the background. very capable hands. You guys all know the drill. So I, I don't really, I think if anything, it'll only get better, I'm hoping. so I just wanted to let everybody know that, By the time this publishes, actually, I'll be gone. If you're hearing this, it's too late. But all right. let's get into it. the first question that we get a lot is people will write in and ask what organizations they recommend that we would support that aren't necessarily life after hate. Like, what are organizations that we also believe in that work in anti violent extremism or support for people that are trying to change? Do we have any experience with anything that we I think are good.

Liz 1:46

instead of asking, well, what organizations would you support? You could ask like, well, what qualities would you look for if you were looking for DRAD support? What qualities in an organization would you look for? I think it's a pretty good question. And also conversely, what qualities would you want to steer away from?

Samantha 2:05

Yeah whenever I think about even people that I want to talk to it's like, who has something that I want and where can I glean that wisdom. And I think when you look for organizations it's kind of like how are these organizations doing what you want to do on a larger scale.

Angela 2:18

there are other things that we can look for. We can, we may not be able to say, like, well, I can tell you this list of 5 organizations, but we can say, look at organizations with the highest ethics. Like. Look into them, what are their values? Are their values aligned with yours or what you're trying to accomplish? And I wonder if this is a good place to plug the resource network that exit is building. Like, we're building a pretty extraordinary resource network, so even though the question may be, if not life after hate or exit, that doesn't mean we couldn't still recommend somewhere in a person's area or give them a few resources that they can explore themselves.

Samantha 3:12

also something that you can do from the convenience of your own home is, like NCOP, the National Council of Nonprofits, or GuideStar, they kind of give transparency levels of nonprofits, What they say they'll do versus what they actually do. Those are also great resources. But yeah, I mean, I think if there's something in particular that you're trying to support, you can just contact us. You can even ask people that you trust that, are doing good things or are supporting good things. There are a lot of different ways to show support for a good cause. All right, the next question is, you guys talk about how much you hated the movement. You hated it so much, why'd you stay in for so long? So I guess the question is, What kept us in the movement? I kind of, I'm just going to say like, look, I was in for about a year and a half. And even in that short amount of time, I wanted to leave like long before I did. There's a fear for safety, a fear for all kinds of things. But I would love to hear from people that have had a little bit more time to have that struggle and that, that turmoil. Yeah. I'm going to turn it over to you guys. What kept y'all in the movement?

Lauren 4:26

Yeah, for me, I was in for like a total of eight years, so I can't pretend as though I didn't like some aspects of it. Like, there's definitely some people there that I did like at the time, it's just most of them are drama queens. Some of them, like, I can look back and say that they're okay. Hopefully that they've got out and then that they're doing better for themselves. So, I can say that there's definitely a couple people I stayed in for, and also just like the unpredictability of that life. I'm going to admit that I used to enjoy living life in chaos, yeah. But I mean, obviously things change over time. I'm in my mid thirties now and like, even if my apartment's a mess, I'm like, okay, I better like fucking fix this. Cause I'm not living in a mess or chaos anymore. So I think it was all about mentality at the time. And also the bridges that I had burned with people outside of the movement, I didn't feel like I had anything else.

Samantha 5:14

Well, I don't want to piggyback on that really quick. When you talked about living in chaos, I think that really hits home. hits for me. There are a lot of people in the movement that will do this, like, order, and everything is, like, so obvious. And you don't even really consider the fact that your life is in free fall pretty much at any given moment. And that's not because society is victimizing you. It's because your leaders have decided you need to hate someone else, or you need to try to get the attention of X, Y, or Z. You're risking your own safety, your family's safety. your job, your livelihood at all times. And you keep telling yourself, it's because I'm doing something good. But I don't understand how you're doing something good if you know that at all moments, you and your family are at risk.

Lauren 5:59

Yeah, that's so true. I remember saying one time, Oh, I'm sacrificing myself for this cause. And I'm like, no, I'm actually just acting like a fucking idiot.

Liz 6:06

For me, there was definitely an element like once I got to the point where I started considering leaving and started having questions that there was like a sunken cost fallacy involved. Like, okay, I've invested all of this time and effort and like all the risk and everything that we've already talked about that, well, it's going to get better. It has to get better. I'll just stick with it. Things will improve. Well, this is just one bump in the road. This is just one blip. This is just one occasion where something went off the rails. Everything will be fine. And then after, time compounds over, like, weeks and months, and suddenly you're realizing, like, Oh, this is just getting worse. This isn't getting better at all. And I think it takes everybody some time to, like, kind of work through that process of, like, realizing, like, you can't keep fooling yourself anymore, and you can't keep thinking, like, well, just because I stayed, I have to keep staying. It's like, no, you don't have to keep staying. You don't have to keep fooling yourself. You can leave whenever you want. It doesn't feel like it, but you can leave whenever you want to.

Samantha 7:11

What do you say to the person that says, I want to leave, but I'm afraid that I'm going to get doxxed, or I'm going to get hurt.

Angela 7:20

I would say that might happen anytime, anyways, just being a normal person, whatever that is in today's society.

Liz 7:30

it's important to recognize and validate that those concerns are real, like, putting your safety at risk, going through the process of leaving. I mean, It's like, it's a real thing, and it's not, it doesn't help anyone to just say, well, yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't matter. That's not important. So like doing a risk assessment with people and saying, well, okay, what do you really have to think about here? What, like, what is just a fear in your head? As opposed to like, what is an actual concern of something that could happen? And what are the real ramifications? Like, it's true. I mean, anybody can get doxxed online. Well, so what does it mean if you in particular get doxxed? what is the particular situation around it? a lot of the reasons that I told myself that, Oh, well, you know, I, well, I can't leave now because this is happening or that's happening. Like a lot of that is just the, those are just fake barriers that we create for ourselves. They aren't, they either aren't real or they aren't as real as we think they are. They don't mean what we think they do.

Samantha 8:39

Yeah, I think when I was leaving, I was so paranoid all the time, and then someone was like, Yeah, like, your fear is real. The risk might not necessarily be. And I think accepting that you're going to be afraid for as long as it takes, Someone please correct me. Isn't it like the first six months are actually like you're most at risk. If anything was going to happen to you, if someone was going to try and like come after you or like feel that hatred towards you, isn't it like the first six months? And then after that, it's just kind of like you're old news. They already hate 10 other things more than you at that point. Like what, not to say that you're not important and you weren't important, but like, That first six months is the most likely time. If you can make it past that six months, then I'm not going to say that, like, you're in the clear because that's, who knows? You're asking for rationality from irrational actors, but that first six months is like when it's the toughest part, I would say.

Lauren 9:32

I'm going to agree with that only because for some of these folks, it takes them that long to figure out that you're gone. Like, I remember being contacted after about a couple months or so, and it's just because, like, I hadn't shown up for anything. Eventually, it kind of clicked with them. Oh, maybe something's changed with her. I

Liz 9:47

Yeah. I'd be interested to see if there was like any data to back that up. I mean, I think. Whether it's the first six months or the first year, like I do think those early days or the early years, like those are the most dangerous, I think. I mean, for me now, having been out 30 years, it's like, eh, my life's my life now. And like, that's a really nice place to be and not be in this like, hyper vigilant state of like, who's around the next corner, who's going to be driving past my house like that, that's not part of my reality anymore, which is amazing.

Samantha 10:22

Yeah. That sounds so nice.

Angela 10:24

I was thinking about that earlier, too, when I was thinking about the questions. I was like, how long has it been since I gave a shit? Like, I don't know. I'm with Liz. I would like to see data. to show like any opinion or theory on any specific amount of time. I don't know that I could generalize that. And like, Liz, I'd want to see data on the six month number if only because people's circumstances can be so different. Like, there's not there's not a way to generalize. Specific things across the board for everyone, so I'd really want to break it down and like see if there are differences between iterations or genders or, different things. Different nerdy book things like that. That's why I always use the little glasses emoji. Okay.

Samantha 11:15

For what it's worth, the person that told me this, I don't know if they said it just to like mitigate some anxiety that I had or something like that. Which is weird because it was like five years that I was out at that point. So I don't know. But yeah, it was just a thing that, like, it always just stuck around in my head that, like, I don't know, maybe it's from abusive relationships or something that, like, that first six months of leaving and I know that's often how I'll describe leaving the far right is I felt like I left an abusive relationship, not only because I, was personally, but also like violent extremism abuses you. so yeah, I might just keep this whole thing in just to like, we can all kind of go through the thought process of it. Cause I don't want to, you guys give really good answers and it all was prompted by the six month remark. So I'll probably keep it in, but I want everyone to keep in mind that like, this is not we have not read a study yet. We, we are. We are this is purely speculation, I guess. All right. So we have, How do you know that you're a former? How do you know when you, when did you cross the threshold?

Jamie 12:23

This is a good one. For me, I think it was breaking away the ideology, not thinking about the ideology anymore. And having really no residual thoughts, like just nothing would come up anymore, okay, there was no thought process of, seeing someone on the street or getting offended by something, and that, that was for me, I think that was the point where like, okay, obviously I'm a different person now, my identity is completely different, and I'm no longer that same shithead I was before.

Samantha 12:51

I love that for you, Jamie. I'm consistently not an asshole now. This is great.

Jamie 12:56

Well, let's not go that far.

Lauren 12:59

Yeah, I mean, I feel like anybody can be an asshole. It's just what flavor of one are you? Anyways, for me, actually, I used to do journal entries and stuff literally every day when I was in that quote void period that we've all talked about before. It's when that stopped. Like, when I felt the need to do it less and less kind of thing.

Samantha 13:21

Yeah, that's very much how I felt about it. I very much am like a to do list kind of person, like a try hard, where I'm like, oh, if I do all the right things, then like I'll be a former, and it just never felt true. And I kept trying to do more and more, and I would say yes to things I shouldn't have, because I thought that it would prove that I'm a former. And then, I didn't even realize it. And then suddenly like a few months passed or six months or a year passed. And I didn't care so much about proving it to anyone else anymore. There was just this kind of like, Oh, this is just what I do now. And I'd be very curious if anyone. wants to talk about like, I'm reaching this point where I have this, we brought up the term never more before. And a little while ago I had started having that where I was like, do I even feel comfortable with the term former anymore? Like, have I, I'm not doing this because my past makes me feel like I have to, I'm doing this because I know there are people in the world that need help. And I happen to know certain ways that could help them. It's not for atonement or for amends anymore. And I felt like I passed that. But is there like a to do list? Is there a checklist of what makes you a former? Is there a way that you become a former and then you stop being a former other than going back into the movement? Are there other ways to backslide to where being a former doesn't like count anymore?

Angela 14:42

Yeah, I totally think so. But I would also add that this is such a complex dynamic. I've seen so many former struggle with this because it becomes an existential question wrapped up in. many parts of a person's identity. Personally, I feel like it has everything to do with self worth and compassion for ourselves. And when we learn to value ourselves, we're then able to recognize the things that We have put out into the world and we're able to recognize, hey, at this point, I was putting some really shitty stuff out into the world, but then I reached this other point where that stopped. And not only did it stop, but it went in reverse. And I'm now, and I'm like the opposite of the person I used to be. And I've noticed that with myself and with others, that when you reach that point of being able to say, I forgive myself for the things I did and who I was. I love myself. I deserve to be free of that label and that life and that path that is. the turning point for a person to recognize, hey, I am a former. Like, it's if you had to make an ethical choice, and on one hand you could like, make A negative choice, but it would be personally beneficial. Like you found a bunch of money and do you keep it? Do you return it? Kind of thing. If nobody's watching and you make a bad choice, does it count? Like there will still be people like that and we just have to make sure it's like. The right reasons, but ultimately, can you imagine anyone looking you any of you in the eye and being like, I've decided you don't count as a former or I've decided you're a former. Like, I think every one of us would be like, Oh, yeah,

Samantha 16:56

Yeah, but also like we do that to other people that call themselves formers.

Angela 17:01

because we know differently. And I know that sounds ridiculous. But there are not very many people that have the unique knowledge understanding and are able to apply it on the ground in the field the way that some of us can. And that's not even to say that every former. Can do what we do. We've all done a lot of work to be able to do what we do, whether it's work on ourselves, work, learning new things, being open to input, really learning how to listen and not focus on ourselves. And it's not a knock to anybody who's not like us.

Lauren 17:46

think actually one of the ways I could tell with myself was that I was describing my story a lot differently. Like, when I considered myself a former, it was, like, say if people would ask, okay, what got you in and out of that? So, like, I would give them the answer of, okay, well, I was a piece of shit. Here's all the things that I did, yada yada, like, almost over explaining it. But if people ask me now then the answer I typically would give them is my dad passed when I was 16 and I went off the rails. Like, that still owns what I did, but it also briefly explains. Okay. Here's the circumstances. Here's the choices as a result kind of thing.

Samantha 18:21

that's a great point that I think also something for me was like, I stopped being afraid to talk about the parts of it that I liked. You know what I mean? Like, you spend so much time, and I've noticed it, that in some ways, the farther someone gets from it they also do this, like, I hated it the whole time. Everything sucked. And it's like, you were in for like a decade, bro. Like, what? I spent so much time, like, I don't want to say victimizing myself, but trying to be like, I was the good person who was just caught in all these bad situations. And it's like, these bad situations happen because I made those choices to put me in there a lot of the times. And, don't get me wrong, for whatever reason, whether I was being victimized in a relationship or in other ways, I still chose to join. I still chose and knew in the back of my head that this wasn't really the move, but I went ahead with it anyway. And when I found myself in bad situations, I kind of had to do the like, well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions, like I, I had to accept that. And I spent a lot of time trying to deny it, but once that shift happened, that was when I was oh, okay, maybe that's what this former thing is about. I'm not trying to excuse myself anymore.

Lauren 19:38

Yeah, and actually, you bring up a good point there about, the fact that there were things that you did like at the time. Like, when people ask me about this now, you guys are going to get a kick out of this, guaranteed. I'm like, okay, well, the first thing I'm going to tell you is, do you want to know all about all the homoerotic stuff they do behind closed doors? Because I know that's going to get people laughing. It never fails. It works every time. Whereas what I used to do This was like a couple of years ago is like overexplained all the violence and crazy shit that I'd ever seen.

Samantha 20:06

Warren, I want to ask you more about this, so I have to like politely move past this part right now, but we'll revisit that, so just keep a pin in it. Okay. Next=question. What are the physical traits of the current iteration of neo Nazis and violent extremists? What do they look like? What words are they using? How do you know if you're in the supermarket with a violent extremist?

Lauren 20:34

You probably wouldn't unless, they started talking and, like, you were listening very carefully, because from what I've seen, the Boots and Braces garbage is gone. Like, that generation of it is gone. So, I mean, I probably wouldn't even recognize anybody unless they came up to me and started spewing the rhetoric.

Samantha 20:53

Are there any tells though? Like, when you're talking to them, you can't just stand there and be like, hail victory, brother. Like, I mean, sure, I guess maybe you can, but like, most of them know not to do that, like, to a stranger. Just something this, in all honesty, is something, I was filming something recently, and This woman, Angela's talked about this before too, but she kept being like, you're so good at speaking, like you're so articulate, blah blah blah, and then later on she was just like, I would have never thought that you'd be like a neo nazi or whatever, and I'd be like, well, who were you thinking? And she'd be like, oh, well, like, I was like, I do know, And then I realized, like, she's impressed that I'm articulate because I was a neo Nazi, not because I'm just someone who talks. I'm, I have like this extra lowered barrier to entry where it's like, wow, she can string together a couple of sentences, like, she's better than the rest of them. And it really got on my nerves. So I kind of am just asking this question as what are the myths? What are the dumb things that we hear that people think are about us? That are just laughably incorrect and that are kind of getting us into situations politically like we're in right now because no one knew what to expect.

Liz 22:07

I mean, a big part of why I started speaking out in the first place is that I think it's a bit better now, but like, certainly back in the 90s, no one wanted to believe that the kid on the honor roll, who was, living next door and doing all the extracurricular activities and all of that would be the person who would fall into extremism, like they all have this preconceived idea about, whether it's like, having those boots and braces appearance or, whether they come from like a certain economic or, domestic violence type background, like they all have these ideas and it's like, no, it really can be anybody. And and I think I mean, we can look at fads that come and go about, haircuts and the types of shirts and slacks people wear and things like that, but like that, being able to pick out those things, even if you can accurately identify someone with those things, isn't, it's just a sort of fallacy, it doesn't keep people safe, like you can't just be on a bus or in a grocery store or something and say like, oh, that's an extremist over there, like, you can't possibly know unless they do open their mouth and start saying, well, these people are those people. I won't say, like then you can start to kind of get a feel for it. But like, there's no instant way to know.

Samantha 23:28

I tell you and for what it's worth, those people, the boots and braces, the red, white, and black, the Swazi shirt people, they still exist, they're much farther and fewer in between but the people running the show, so to speak, look like us. there is no visual tell, and I think that's worth knowing, that Anyone that you meet could be awesome and they could be awful, and you kind of just have to give everyone a chance to find out which is which. Alright, do we have anything we want to add to that? All right so the next question and I wish Brad was here because I really wanted to direct it to Brad and Lauren, but what the fuck is up with all the gay shit? Almost every conversation we have, every episode that I edit. I have to edit out at least one, like, middle school style, like, huh, big balls, you guys gargle them. Like, is it, is everyone that gay in the movement? Like, what is, what, like, I feel like this is just worth knowing that, like, this is not, I'm hoping, I'm assuming, this is not out of homophobia, it's just a, like, Being gay is very real in the movement and being completely in denial of it is very real, but that is me putting pieces together. Lauren, would you like to speak on behalf of all the gay joke makers?

Lauren 24:50

Okay, well, I'm going to somewhat take this question seriously, too. So, yes, it does happen quite a bit. Quite frankly, I've thought of writing a whole separate book about this topic before and calling it the 50 Shades of Extremism. I'm going to say people would probably read it. I couldn't tell you the number of instances like that I had walked in on. But at the same time, I also can't judge it much just because I am not straight myself. I was closeted when I was younger. I'm bi. It's just that I didn't want to admit that to myself. I came out just after I left the movement. So when I was 25 or 26, so it's quite a long time to hold that secret in. What I was actually doing in the movement was running away from that aspect of myself.

Samantha 25:26

That's really powerful. And I think, do you think that like, are you making fun of, or are you making light of? the in the movement.

Lauren 25:37

I think for me, it's two things. So making light of, and I've also got a really dirty mind. I mean, who the hell doesn't enjoy discussing shit like this?

Samantha 25:44

Yeah that's totally reasonable. And I just, I also want to open the floor up to anyone else. because I'm, I don't mean to put Lauren and Brad on the spot, but I just did. So, sorry.

Angela 25:55

I have been meeting formers for decades now, and I have met a lot of formers who are part of that community. Part of my community. I, also do not identify as straight, and I poke fun. I'm right there with Lauren. Like, from the very first time Lauren and I spoke, we were like the female Beavis and Butthead. Like, you said poop. Like, I think it is, like, kind of that sense of humor, but also, there's a lot of internalized homophobia to work out, and that is, like, kind of. Ironically safe place to do it.

Samantha 26:46

That's totally true. All right. The floor is open now. Liz, you had a question

Liz 26:52

Yeah. So my question, Lauren's already touched on this, was how does, how we share our pasts change over time? And I know mine has changed over time, but the way I started talking about it was really in response to what other people wanted to know at the time. And so at the time people wanted to know about the group I belonged to, they wanted to know what the leadership was doing, what they were thinking, who is like, who the players were, what was going on, like all that kind of, intel kind of stuff. And so that's what I focused on along with my own experience of radicalization. And then I realized, like, only a few years ago, I realized that, like, not talking about the level of crap that I, inflicted on my university community was being a bit, I wouldn't say like dishonest exactly, but like it was being dishonest by omission. And once I started talking to some of the people who were on the anti racist side of that whole dynamic, I realized that By me not being honest about that was also robbing them of their experience that they went, they were putting themselves at risk to fight what I was doing. And if I wasn't talking about it, then that kind of like gave them only like a halfway ability to talk about it. I don't know if I'm making any sense right now, but so I've actually in some ways become more, I think, more well rounded in the way I discuss my past and I hope that's helpful to people. And I know it's been hard for me, but it's also been helpful for me too, to just say like, yeah, I mean, like you were saying before about, well, wanted to paint myself as a victim. It's like, well, yeah. But I also, I chose this too. So, and I. Did a lot of things that I regret. And I did a lot of things that were upsetting to a lot of other people. And owning those things fully has been helpful for me.

Samantha 29:07

Yeah.

Angela 29:08

In my own experience, there was no amount of mental health support that I could get to like work out the complexity of what it meant to be who I was, how I was raised, when and where did it become my choice. I learn in different ways. With some material it's by reading it with other it's by hearing it and listening and maybe reading it. I've actually written nothing that's been published, but I have a lot of writings that I talk about that because it's something that, like, after being involved in this space for years, to I observed in myself, but then I also observed it in other formers like we hone how our communication skills allow us to share our experiences. That may mean learning how to be articulate. That may mean that we take our experiences and process them and understand them in different ways after we've heard ourselves talking about them so much. but it was listening to others. before I was able to recognize like, oh shit, and that's what happened. I was like, oh fuck, like,

Samantha 30:37

was there the whole time.

Angela 30:39

yeah, that's also the beauty of us sharing our own experiences, is we get to decide when and what we share, and we get to decide based on our realizations of how it affects us. But in ways that we now recognize that we never would have before, is this good for me? Like, I don't know about you all, but when I was in the movement, I never once stopped and said I wonder if this is good for me. Not once. But being on this side of it, There are things we never thought we would think or feel or experience that we do because of what we do and how we do it.

Samantha 31:25

Yeah, and I think you, you bring up, something that, that newer durations do a lot is they'll come to us and talk about wanting to tell their story and go in public either because they're afraid of getting doxxed or whatever and something I was talking about and I actually wanted to ask you Jamie about it is the second I realized I wanted to leave or the second I realized I could I was already in contact with the journalist so I always knew my story was going to go public somehow I didn't know that it would You be in the way that it did or that I would tell it as often as I have, but I always knew that it would be in a book or on a podcast or on a TV show or whatever from day one. So as I was telling my story, I think I always had to kind of keep a certain type of distance, but also keep it so close because I had to be careful about who I was in the public eye once I left. And Jamie, you've had a lot I would suppose to really think about your story and not deal with the public sc or not hear so directly the public scrutiny of what you were working through at the time. What would you tell the kids? Because I know that for myself, it's not that I regret going public, but like kind of. I never had the ability to. Wake up one morning and say, okay, I want to sort this out for me and I'll tell my story when I'm ready. I always knew that it was going to happen. What would you tell Do you wish you guys have spoken out earlier? Do you think that people should, or do you think there's an advantage to like taking time and figuring yourself out?

Jamie 33:11

I think you need to take time and figure yourself out first. Like, for me, I had to walk away from everything, cut ties from everything, and just deal with, my own thought process first before I felt to be in a good space in order to give back. Like, I never thought about the ideology or the music or any of that about, 10 or 12 years and then Brad got me interested in talking, like talking about it and researching it. So that's so I was in a good space like a decade later, but you need to work on yourself. I'm sorry. I'm rambling right now. You need to work on yourself 1st. I think, and I don't think everyone needs to go public. I think. Certain people should, but I think you need to be in that right. Headspace before you can, before you can actually talk about it and give back to people and get back to the community. And it's not for everyone. So I think start with yourself, disengage, de radicalize, whatever term you want to use, focus on yourself, focus on your own identity, and then when you reach a comfortable place, maybe then start speaking out.

Samantha 34:14

Liz what's your take?

Liz 34:16

mean, I totally agree with Jamie. And I mean, I had some like external circumstances that were going on that kind of pushed me to go public like six weeks after I had disengaged. And I mean, to put it bluntly, I was like a fucking mess. Like, I was not in, in retrospect, I was like not in the right place to be, talking about this to like anybody public facing at all. And I mean, on the one hand, it's like, I had to take responsibility for what I had done and I had to take the responsibility at that point. And so I don't regret doing it, but at the same time, if I was to be advising other people would be like, yeah, don't, do as I say, not as I do. Like, if you have if you have the ability to like, just take those steps back and work on yourself first before Before doing anything public facing it would be so much better because I feel like being public so early for me, in many respects, sort of set back my healing and set back my ability to develop myself as a person and like I got to a point after several years of doing I guess former's work for lack of a better term, that I felt like I'm just living my life. looking in the rearview mirror. Like, I'm not actually building up anything. And so I did step away from like, not all of it, but from like a lot of the work that I had been doing for a few years. And it really was in those years that I was able to like, build my career. I met the person I ended up marrying, like all of these like key things happen when I finally just. Focusing on, the, this is my past and I have to share it because hopefully it will help people while, while I'm still alive and like all these kinds of like very kind of dark thoughts about why I have to keep doing this work was just, it was not serving me. I

Samantha 36:30

Yeah, I think that's great. Thank you for sharing that, Liz. That was, I think that was really great like a really great observation and insight. Do we have any other questions that, that we would like to bring up or answer in this little get together we have here right now?

Liz 36:50

have a question that you might not want to include or not, but I'm going to ask it anyway. So one of the things that I've gotten off and on over the years when I've told my story is that people will say things like, well, my dad was an alcoholic too, and I didn't become a racist asshole. And so, like, when you're sharing, like, these points of vulnerability of how and why we took the path that we did, and when you're confronted with someone saying, well, I had those same things, and this didn't happen to me, like, how do you respond to that?

Samantha 37:29

I always just say I'm so happy for you. I'm so glad that you were not given the opportunity to become a Nazi because it's pretty tough. I think people that want to do that have I don't want to say it's like a superiority complex, but just that kind of Like they need to feel like their pain is more painful than your pain. And that is where I get to feel good about the fact that the things I've done since I've left fulfill me in a way where I don't need to qualify myself in any way, and I just always, I say like, I'm so happy that you didn't have to go through that or people would be like, well, I don't know what you're talking about with X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, and I hope you never have to know what it's like. I don't wish it on anyone. But that's kind of. Turn it back on them. Let them know that you're proud of them, too. I

Lauren 38:19

For me, I have run into that before, like a small handful of times, the one time I'm thinking about right now is when I asked the person. Okay. So, I mean, how did you deal with these things then? I mean, it's a valid enough question. It opens it up for them. There's a good chance that they've made mistakes too. We all have. We're human. It's just that this person's mistakes look different.

Samantha 38:38

Okay. Liz, what do you do?

Liz 38:40

I freeze. That's what I do.

Samantha 38:43

Oh, I see. This is an anecdotal question.

Liz 38:46

It is. And I mean, I guess part of it, part of what I do is just talk about like how there's very rarely like a one factor thing, like, well, my family, there's addiction in my family. Therefore, I've responded to that by becoming a skinhead or something, like it's a combination of factors. And so I try to like contextualize it for people and say, well, like, Also, yeah, great. I'm glad that this didn't lead you down this path, this is how people can end up down these paths with, this, as well as other combinations of factors that are impacting them at this moment in time. And and I also try to remind people too, that while not necessarily white supremacy, anyone can be vulnerable to radicalization of some sort. And I think we're seeing a lot of that sort of play out in real time in the world that we're in right now. And it's, um, and it's really, it's a really troubling for me to see that, people will be spewing a lot of hate in their own way. And then, but not really like thinking that they're being hateful at all. And that they're really, they have the same blinders on that we did. but just within their own framework that isn't the same as ours. So, so yeah, I just try to make it clear, like this is a human condition. This isn't something that only happens to people who are especially awful or bad.

Samantha 40:17

I love that. You're a very gracious response. I'm not, I, anytime someone says something like that, it's like, man, I bet you're fucking great at parties, like, I just don't have, I don't have, like, that sanctimonious, like, well, tons of people, blah, blah, blah, like, do you think we don't know about that? Do you think we, like, truly think that everyone has, like, the rite of passage of, like, the neo Nazi phase? Like, no, we don't, we are fully aware of it. I don't know. It always bothers me when people do that because it's just so counterproductive.

Lauren 40:47

and I think the other thing that people who ask that type of stuff are missing is the fact that not everyone comes in contact with these people in their life. Like, I know several people who've never even met folks like this.

Samantha 41:01

I love that question, Liz, thank you for that question. All right I think we've answered a good amount of questions in good faith for today. Thank you guys for chatting and thank you listeners for listening. If you have any questions or curiosity or a topic that you just want us to explore, please feel free to email us at thedailyformer at lifeafterhate. org, DM us on social, leave a comment on our posts, join the discord, send a courier pigeon, smoke signals, we will do whatever we can. Thank you guys for coming on this ride with me and the car is built. I hope you guys figure out where to go with it. Thanks.