Ask a Former - Episode 3

In this episode of Ask a Former, the team answers questions submitted by a senior graduate student working on a thesis. The theme of this one is how tattoos shape identity within hate groups and the challenges faced during and after exit. Interestingly, four out of five of the team have or had violent far-right-related tattoos. Why is that significant and what can we learn from it? The team touches on tattoos, growing beyond the symbols of the violent far-right, and how former extremists transform their mistakes into teachable moments for others who exit violent extremism.  

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Transcript

Angela 0:00

Hi, this is Ask a Former, a roundtable discussion where you ask formers questions, we answer them, and hopefully we all feel a little more connected. The Ask a Former series accompanies our Ask a Former column. The questions we answer come from social media. Email, discord, and sometimes in person discussions. There's no question too small or superficial, and we hope you enjoy learning that formers are just people too. Hey everybody, how's it going?

Lauren 0:34

Going good.

Liz 0:35

Going great.

Angela 0:35

Very good. The questions that we're going to be answering today are all situated around a particular topic. And the topic is how tattoos shape identity within hate groups and the challenges faced during or after exit. Many of us experienced tattoos in the movement and the repercussions of those tattoos on the other side of it. Our very first question is how do tattoos function as symbols of commitment some of my firsts were the guy that did tattoos out of his house that wasn't quite in the movement but wasn't quite out of the movement and we were just happy because we were underage and we were getting them at a very low cost. Sometimes it was as low as a 12 pack of beer or something like that. I remember waking up on my mom's couch one morning. She had one of my legs in the air and all I remember was, What the fuck did you do now, Angela? As she was inspecting the new tattoo on my leg. Something else memorable about those early tattoos is that with All the lasering and covering up that I've done over the past few decades, almost every one of those early tattoos were in that very deep, dark ink that just will not come out. I've had several of Those tattoos lasered These have been lasered multiple times and the ink just never came out So I am still working on a few cover ups after all these years. Does anybody else have any memorable experiences of early tattooing in the movement?

Lauren 2:33

For me, I've got a similar one in terms of how my mom responded to it, or I should say reacted. So my first one, it read 1488 in older English style font, and it was right across the side of my neck, like on the left side here. It was actually done at a tattoo shop, but it wasn't. Really done to a very good quality at all. I remember it started fading and the ink coming out and stuff within a matter of weeks but I remember coming home on the GO train. I came back home for a short time and my mom picked me up there and she's What in God's name did you do to the side of your neck?

Angela 3:08

Probably in a similar tone to my mom.

Lauren 3:12

Yeah, see, the thing with my parents is they were very old fashioned growing up. They always said no tattoos, no piercings, no hair dye kind of thing. But as soon as I turned 18, that's the age you can sign for yourself, my mom lost all control.

Angela 3:25

What about you guys?

Brad 3:27

Yeah there's several stories, I think I think one of them, I was getting a tattoo in my hand in my living room by some guy, Jamie, you probably remember the guy, but he would come once or twice a year to the West Coast to just do tattoos in the house and sometimes sometimes they were good and sometimes they weren't very good. and I think you mentioned something about the whole sobriety nexus dependent on how sober or not sober I did get a real dark black tattoo, like you're talking about too, I have them on the backs of my arms and yeah, that one was by a guy who was I don't even, I, yeah, he'd fail every narcotics and alcohol test. During that tattoo And I don't suggest basement tattoos for anyone who's listening from people who appear to be slightly awake to half asleep at times. doesn't look right. and it was meant to be like, have like shading and stuff that never occurred. It's just the letters block letters and awful. And I hate it. And the lasering of it hurts more than anything.

Angela 4:37

Oh gosh, it sure does. It sure does. Yeah,

Brad 4:43

I don't know, Jamie, what about you? But.

Jamie 4:45

No, I got my first one when I was 16 and we just wandered around for hours trying to find a shop that would give us tattoos. Because last minute booking, paid an exorbitant amount of price. Shitty tattoo still have it. But it's a reminder of just how young and stupid I was. Yeah, but I'd never did any basement stuff or anything like that because I watched guys like like Brad was saying progressively gets worse as the night goes on. And you guys are just, you're just dumb and you're all getting the same tattoo and the same spot.

Angela 5:15

but probably the same needle.

Jamie 5:17

that was always my mind. Did you change the needle? Did you really change the needle?

Angela 5:21

What about you, Liz? Did you mark your body with any movement symbols, or do you make any crazy, stupid decisions like the rest of us?

Liz 5:32

No, I did not actually. yeah I feel like it was in part, just lack of opportunity, which. worked in my benefit, definitely. And also part of it was the ideology of the group that I was in at the time that it was not talked about often, but it was frowned upon for women to get tattoos. Certainly there were women with tattoos there I'm not saying that there weren't, but it wasn't like Hey, let's get let's all get together and go do this thing. That just never, at least in my experience, that just never happened. That was never encouraged. And I actually have a tattoo now, but I didn't get it until I was in my forties.

Angela 6:20

Do you have Any experiences, anything memorable with anybody around tattooing or discussions around it that you think would be helpful for our listeners to know?

Liz 6:33

Not really so much I knew lots of people with tattoos, and that was just what they did, and I didn't have any, and that was what I was doing, and that was approved upon, so I kept not doing that, or doing that, as the case may be

Lauren 6:54

What I found, I can only speak for myself on this one, is that I was getting it to affirm my beliefs to myself and others. It was both for me and for other people. Like, when I started getting them, I was 18 at the time, and then I just continued with it. I remember one summer I probably was. 18 or 19 at the time. I went on this tattoo binge just after getting my first one, because I'm like, oh yeah the pain isn't really too terrible. I got like, three more. But that aside, I remember this was also the summer just after I had got brutally beaten up by the people who I thought were my friends. And there were, like, all these crazy accusations of me going lefty or Antifa. So I started getting even more movement related tattoos to prove that I wasn't. And, of course, I look back on that one nowadays with all of them covered up, and I'm like, yeah, that was pretty stupid. It was done for everyone else.

Angela 7:49

What about you guys? Do you feel like it symbolized something for you when you started getting tattooed?

Brad 7:56

I think generally speaking, there's obviously A thing about the tattoos, like if you're in a certain group once you hit, I, I don't want to discuss this really like the levels in the group. Because who cares? but there are tattoos that represent each level of that, which is ridiculous, but it exists like that, much like it does in a lot of different gangs. I think that's worth noting something that a lot of these groups operate like gangs, and that is true. It's if you put the insignia or gang, related, sayings or the patches or the name of the group itself on you, then, yeah, then that's a show of true faith to the group, but I will say this, that as I've done this work and work with tattoo removal places, one of the most common tattoos that some of these guys that I'm talking to is a movement related gang tattoos they often do them for free tattoo shops. So just be like, yep, I'll cover your swastika for free or I'll cover your gangs white power gang thing for free. They won't even charge you. Kudos to them,

Angela 9:06

Yeah. I think for myself, when I was involved, it was a few decades ago, so obviously attitudes and iterations of the violent far right were different back then, I almost feel like I was in a split generational mindset because in the beginning, it was like you would get made fun of if you weren't willing to like, ink something on yourself that was representative of the violent far right. So many times I remember seeing people picked on, bullied, and told things like, What, you're a fucking snitch, that's why you won't get this tattooed on you. Or you're not proud of who you are, so you won't get this tattooed on you. And it very much functioned as a symbol of commitment. Like that was one of the main reasons I started getting tattoos to begin with. And some of my very first tattoos are racial slogans. I got Vikings. As some of my first tattoos, because that's what I saw all around me before I even fully understood paganism or heathenry or any of those things. And it absolutely signaled commitment. It was like, I'm willing to go out at any time, any place publicly with these symbols on my body. Kind of like signs telling everybody, this is what I'm involved in and this is what I believe. And giving people that signal of like I'm waiting for you to fuck with me because of this and almost inviting it to come along. But by the time I was leaving, we, including myself, were telling people, stop doing that shit. Don't get these symbols tattooed on you. That's when I first started hearing the stuff about don't get anything below your wrists or like above your clavicles and that whole area was so you could still hide it if you wanted or needed to. What about you, Jamie? how do tattoos function as symbols of commitment BFRE?

Jamie 11:28

have been 17 when I got my Celtic cross which I still have today. I haven't covered it up yet. I probably not going to because it's a reminder of how stupid I was. If that makes sense. Yeah, no, it's a level of commitment. It's to show other people that you're dedicated to the cause and it's almost like a power thing. Hey, look at me I'm a 17 year old kid and I'm not afraid to speak my beliefs or show my beliefs or Essentially piss people off, right? And I wish I wish I could go back and tell myself not to be so stupid. But it is what it is just be wary of what you're getting on you, putting on your body. Think twice. Think of your future. You may think that swastika is cool or those SS bolts are cool or whatever but they're really not.

Angela 12:11

True story. What's interesting today is that I am so far from the generation I came up in I want to know what is it like today? Are people still getting those kind of things tattooed today? Is it coded? Is it in, in a way that like, if I saw it in public, I would even recognize that is now a symbol of the violent far right?

Lauren 12:40

I guess it depends on the group, but from what I've seen and heard from our service participants, tattoos Like, movement related tattoos aren't really a thing anymore. It's being discouraged so that they can blend in better. The term that I keep hearing, and actually I heard it when I was still in, is the wolf in sheep's clothing.

Brad 12:58

I think there's a transference from the tattoos to the online maiming and like that culture of you can go on and you can enjoy all the symbology online. And of course, there are the groups that go out purposely and wave their Atomwaffen flags around or wave flags around or wave their whatever flags. I'm just throwing a group's name out there. I think some of the groups they'll, they don't care to do that stuff on their body. And even some groups you hear they're like making new things a fad like diets, workout routines other things to build identity and things like that. So wearing the same khakis, all jokes aside, but these things are all the same symbology as. Getting that swastika tattoo back in the day. Like now it's like we can all wear the same white polo shirt and khaki pants, and we can all go to Charlottesville and we can all be assholes together. Dress the same way. That, that reigns true with the. Way we used to do things. We used to just march down the street and T shirts and with all our tattoos and that was the fear thing. So I think there's, it's switched away. But I think Liz brought up a real good point. Some of the groups have been naysayers to tattoos the whole time

Angela 14:13

Brad.

Brad 14:14

still exist like that. That are super The National Socialists trying to be the most like Nazis or the most Nazi of all the Nazis, which is fucking God awful stuff. But it's the truth, though. That's the so they're trying to be the purest of the pure or whatever it is, but that is what they say. That's what they're saying. And I know we all know in this room that's what they used to say, too. So it's really.

Angela 14:40

Reminded of last year, 1 of your statements or descriptions rather was their master racing around. It rings true in the same way with this that it did when you initially said it Liz, I'm curious the group that you were involved in. Were there any guidelines or rules or. Or anything posed to the men in the group, or was it mostly like women don't do this or look like this

Liz 15:13

Again, it wasn't really, at least with me, wasn't really something that was talked about much, so I can't really speak to whether there was any guidelines from on high kind of thing. I do remember now that I've heard some of the conversation here, I'm remembering some of the conversations that I had with members of the leadership of my group. And at the time there was like a lot of people doing a lot of dumb stuff. And getting unwanted press and things like that. And they, I don't know why, but the the leadership talked to me about that. I guess I was just somebody to tell that really had no stake in anything. They were like, I wish so and so hadn't gotten arrested. I wish they had been smarter than that. I wish they hadn't done X, Y, Z, all that sort of thing. And, yeah, it came up that okay buddy over there has this like crazy ass tattoo that makes them visible from 10 miles away if they do anything It's going to be identified by somebody, it's going to be seen, they're going to be found out, they're going to get arrested, and so there was, like, there was just this ongoing narrative about, I wish people would make smarter choices, and so that did include not, putting tattoos that you couldn't at least if you're going to be out demonstrating or something, you couldn't at least put some kind of bandage or something on them so that They wouldn't be identified, In fact, I'm actually not even aware and this doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I'm not actually aware of anyone getting the logo symbol of our group tattooed. I don't know of anybody who did. And if anyone knows of somebody who did, they can they're welcome to message me and let me know, but I don't personally know.

Brad 17:06

Not directly that I can remember. I think there are definitely people around that we're in that group, Liz, that had other stuff, but not specifically the group logo, which is weird because usually that is like a go to. That's

Jamie 17:23

Yeah, I can't recall either anyone having that logo either. T shirts, yeah, all that other stuff, but not actually.

Brad 17:28

Even the main guys. I don't, yeah

Liz 17:33

Not that I know of. T shirts, yes. Flags, yes. We, there were even like little marble statuettes that you could get at one point, but not actual tattoos,

Angela 17:45

All right. So our next question is what is the emotional and social impact of having VFR tattoos after leaving?

Lauren 17:55

For me, I got a couple of stories with this one. I remember one time I was out in Quebec at this thing called Rockfest. It's like a four day metal and punk festival. So I'm just going there to have a good time. And it was before I got my Celtic cross covered up the one that used to be on my shoulder. So someone was standing next to me in line, waiting for food. And he's Hey, that's a fucked up tattoo, man. So I just turned to him and I said. I know, I'm not disagreeing with you. So that kind of threw him off, I guess he expected a fight. And I'm like, okay, if you're curious I'm out. I just haven't got it covered yet. And he was really apologetic about it, but I felt like that could've gone a thousand times worse. And then, I also remember, same tattoo, couple months down the road after getting the cover up done I got a time glass and vines and roses and stuff over it. So It took eight hours, the thing's in full color, like every color of the rainbow, and I went out for dinner with a friend of mine right afterwards, and I had a bunch of people come up to me. Oh, is that new? Where did you get it? It's really nice. So way different reactions than what I was getting before.

Angela 19:07

That's awesome. I love that. I would definitely say that there's an emotional and a social impact of still having violent far right tats after exiting. I had a lot of public facing racial tattoos on myself. when I got out of prison and went back to college and was learning about myself, I was humiliated to have those things on me and went to great lengths to cover them up for several reasons because I didn't want to offend anybody. I, at that point, I actually cared about others feelings, and I didn't want somebody new in my life to see a hate symbol on me and be like, oh my god And it's good with young people to have a real life example I found, instead of just being like I've heard that if you do this, then X happens. To be able to sit there and say, I can tell you I understand this because I'm actually experiencing it, really seems to make more of an impact. And those things were all caught up into one for me on the path of self healing. That emotional weight. Plus the social impact. They were hard. But at the same time, it feels like something that I needed as part of my process in retrospect. What about you all? Was it emotionally taxing? Or did you notice any emotional toll or social conflicts

Brad 20:54

It's come up at different stages. The tattoos. Anything from going to the rec center with my kid when she was really young and going in the hot tub there and then everyone leaves the hot tub. kids at that time were too young to like, no. I guess I looked angry and scary, and this was like, right after I left, so I probably was angry and probably scared. I don't know. And then throughout the years going to the beach and then some mom of other people comes up and goes, pardon me. can I just ask some things about your tattoos while we're here, just engage in those discussions. And then more recently I've had to explain the situation to my daughter's boyfriend because he like was like, oh, that's a lot of tattoos that your dad has. And I'm like, I'm fine with talking about it. Just like Lauren but it's in the past, but it's what questions you have. And Jamie was just asking me, too. Did you have stuff covered up? Yes. I need that reminder. And even the people asking about the tattoos, the social woes, it's helpful. it is helpful that it's a reminder that, Hey, you were that, but you're not, but you were.

Angela 22:08

right.

Jamie 22:09

Can help you explain like who you were in the past and who you are now Like you can say, I used to be this person. I'm no longer like this, but this is a reminder of. of where I've come from and where I'm at now,

Lauren 22:21

I actually, I was like that for a while where I would engage in conversations with people. I originally did want to keep the one that was tattooed across my back, just as a reminder not to go back and of who I was, but eventually I ended up getting that covered up too, I'm like, yeah, you know what, fuck it. I probably don't need the reminder anymore. Yeah, the only one that I have left over that I haven't been able to cover up, it's not directly related to the movement. It's a spiderweb on my right elbow. So I just haven't been able to do this one yet because I've got a bit of an eczema issue on my elbow. I don't want to tattoo over that. So wait for it to heal and also come up with a design. So if anyone has any ideas send them to me.

Angela 23:04

So here's one that I think we can all probably answer given. our proximity to others who have been exiting who have already exited the violent far right. the question is, does tattoo removal or modification play a role in personal transformation?

Lauren 23:28

I found it did I just felt better looking at myself in the mirror afterwards. And I actually also wanted to add this 1 in before I forget about getting it fully laser removed. The procedure is a lot better and way more efficient than it used to be. And from what I've heard nowadays, it's actually got really good. That being said, when I got it done, I think it was around 2012, 2013, time frame if I remember correctly it took me about 6 or 7 sessions to get it fully removed. You can still see some traces of it on my neck. If it's really good lighting, but otherwise you'd never guess it was there. And what? Yes. To it is painful. It absolutely sucks. But at the same time, each session was like, under a minute for me.

Angela 24:12

To answer the question for myself, I would totally say that after having had removal and cover ups done over the years it did play a role in my own personal transformation because the less I could see the hate I used to carry, the more confident I felt and the better, like more positively I felt about myself and who I was becoming as a human, as a woman and learning to step into my authentic self and to really wear her well,

Jamie 24:50

That's valid. I like that. I think anything you can do, tattoo removal, getting rid of t shirts, cds, literature, anything that will help you move forward, just do it. Just do it.

Angela 25:03

have you seen it hinder anyone in their own personal transformation?

Brad 25:08

So like a lot of folks that I work with, they're like, Oh, I'll just keep the AWB flag because I like that one or whatever. And often I talk to them about what is that going to do? By keeping just that one. Like it's an item. So I'm not going to crap on the idea if it like means something to you or something. It meant to them some something from the movement that reminds them, but it has to be some kind of pro social reason of why they're keeping that item like as a reminder. It's like the tattoo as well, right? Like I keep this one because it reminds me of the, like Jamie was saying, but A lot of folks I talked to get rid of the shit. They're like, no, I tossed my CDs in the fireplace. And I'm like, okay, if that makes you feel, therapeutic, go for it. A lot of people throw out the shirts or the patches or the their docs or whatever, like I'm a person who believes in also not just throwing out stuff. So I still have docs, but because I like them as well. Because they're footwear, and I'm cheap, I'm not going to go buy new boots But, the association with it, I would never wear them for the reason that they were worn before. Now it would be like, oh, it's winter, I'm going to put on my boots now, and go outside. But I would not wear those in, The sweltering heat of the summer as a statement of my violent nature they're also quite comfortable. think there has to be a reason is is what I'm saying for holding on to things and some people are just not psychologically okay with stuff that reminds them of anything to do with the movement. And in that case, I say, absolutely rid yourself of all those burdens and move on. If that's going to be one of the most helpful things, and I've heard people say that it's they burn their copy of Mein Kampf and it made them felt so good inside afterwards.

Liz 26:57

I think I would just add just from what I've seen other people go through that we really can't understate the. the physical pain and cost of that process, both physically and potentially economically, if it's not paid not donated or paid for from other people. I've never had tattoo removal, but I have had laser treatments for other scarring. And It was absolutely brutal. and really, as Lauren said, some of the worst pain. And if you're like having a big piece removed and having to go back again and again, and especially if it's in a very sensitive area, like on the face or wherever that it's Again, I don't know what the process is like now just to have someone say Oh there, you can just get it removed. It's no, you can't just get it removed or just get it covered. Like it's a commitment to going through a painful process. And I suppose it's a bit of. trial by fire to show your commitment to your new life path in a way. But we just we shouldn't be flippant about it. I guess is what I'm, the point I'm trying to make.

Angela 28:13

I agree, Liz. And we never know how the next person is going to process it and what. The person next to us needs in their healing process, unless we take the time to ask and more importantly to listen, I appreciate your insight. I think it's important to show that. Not all of us make the same bad decisions, four out of five of us got the tattoos and maybe we should take a cue from you. Maybe it was luck that they frowned upon that for women. We'll never know but I appreciate every one of you sharing your own personal experience and input on this and I'm sure the individual that asks the questions appreciates it too. we've answered some really good stuff about what tattoos symbolize for us what they meant to us while we were involved in the violent far right how they may or may not have impacted us on our way out and what we observed today and others who were working their way through the exit process. Thank you for chatting and thank you listeners for listening. If you have a question, curiosity, Or input, please feel free to email us at thedailyformer at lifeafterhate. org. DM us on socials or leave a comment on our posts. Until next time, stay curious and keep the questions coming. We're happy to answer them. Thanks, y'all. Bye.

Liz 29:52

Bye