Ask a Former - Episode 4

What is your relationship with anger today? Let's talk therapists and how to find the kind that will be most beneficial to your journey as a former. Have we ever received advice as formers? Um, yeah, about that. Join the TDF team for Episode #4 of Ask a Former!

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Transcript

Angela 0:04

Hi. This is Ask a former, a round table discussion where you ask former questions, we answer them and hopefully we all feel a little more connected. The Ask a former series accompanies our ask a former column. The questions we answer come from social media, email, discord, and in-person discussions. There's no question too small or superficial, we hope you enjoy Hey everybody. How's it going today?

Jamie 0:33

Good.

Angela 0:36

Good to hear. we have a few interesting questions today. These questions come from a practitioner who works with participants. The questions are a little bit random, but I think we see some theme across some of them. There are five altogether, and our very first one is, what victories can we help participants celebrate that may not be obvious

Lauren 1:05

So I'm just thinking back to some of the conversations I've had with my participants before. I think the biggest one that I've seen that may not be obvious to other people who've never lived this is them realizing they don't need to change who they are. They just need to change the behavior. So for them it's a big deal. And I remember for me it was a big deal years ago.

Angela 1:22

that's a great point Obviously not everyone jumps right to that. We don't all know what's expected when we start this process, and I would say that I. There's a lot of confusion sometimes over what we're actually here to do. We're not here to tell people what to believe, but we are here to help people disengage from violence, from violent thought, from violent activity, and to make sure that's not an acceptable coping mechanism for people. What about, teaching self-awareness? I was not very self-aware when I started going through the process, and it wasn't, I didn't have the luxury of going through a program that helped me to disengage or to start the exit process. And self-awareness was something that I needed to learn, not in a physical sense, but in a, how am I affecting the people around me? How does it make me feel? And it's not something that I really hear pointed out to others. You have to be careful with your self-awareness, but I know that it is something that contributes What do you think, are victories that we can help participants celebrate that may not be obvious to everybody?

Jamie 2:46

I think choosing to reflect instead of reacting is a huge thing step back. Reflect on what you're thinking and as opposed to reacting, that's a huge step. You're not explosive, you're not pounding your fists on the table. You're stepping back and realizing, calm down. Essentially. It's a little thing, right?

Angela 3:04

That is a victory to celebrate

Brad 3:07

I think the little things are that, I think all those little things equal the on mass conversation that they're having internally about it. And it even showing up to that meeting, the first meeting with us as a participant and making that choice, that email that you send or that phone call that you make, that is a celebration that should be had with people and saying to them, Hey, here you are. You've made the right choice for you and inadvertently for others. So that's a, that is a, yeah, I think it, it, the small bit analysis is so important when we look at the bigger picture.

Jamie 3:47

Well said.

Angela 3:47

you also make a really good point. It is a victory to celebrate, just to have the courage to show up and to. Be willing to give whoever is helping you, a chance to actually help you or support you teach guide, whatever it is that we find ourselves doing in those moments. Is that anything that you consciously encourage with your participants or recognize as good job on reaching out or showing up to our meeting, or, Jamie, I see you nodding yes.

Jamie 4:22

I always I always thank them for engaging, for being honest. I appreciate you not just showing up and, blowing smoke up my ass or just sitting there like you, you're actually engaging and getting involved in the conversation and it's going back and forth. I. As opposed to me just, talking and you going yep. I appreciate the engagement.

Angela 4:41

Ditto. I like to know that someone was actively listening

Jamie 4:45

Exactly. Exactly. and it shows that they actually care. And that's a huge thing too. You, it shows that you actually, you value my time and you, I value your time and you want to change.

Angela 4:56

Absolutely. it's a victory too that I. It's not a judgment that we're all showing up in the same space, hopefully looking for the same result or outcome. And that is less violence. How do we reduce violence in the name of these violent far right beliefs? these are great points. I'm glad to hear it.

Liz 5:23

I think this is in line with what everyone else has been saying, but just ways that people step outside their comfort zone. And, that's obviously showing up to that first conversation and engaging and all of that. But that can also just look like, I think a lot of us can get into this really tight little knot about, this is the little circle of things that feel safe right now. And so stepping outside of that, something as simple as I went to a different part of town that I don't normally go to, and I went to a store that I've been really, I've been really wanting to go to that record store. I've been really wanting to go to that bookstore. But, for whatever reason I've been nervous about going to that area, or I've been like nervous about going into that establishment for whatever, I know there are, like, people listening will probably think of like obvious reasons, but, there can be like all kinds of reasons why people just, get these like sort of mental blocks here's something that I've wanted to do and I haven't done it, or, this is something I've wanted to do and I used to enjoy, but haven't done in years and I've gone back to it or I've gone, I've talked to this person that I haven't talked to for five years because they didn't wanna talk to me when I was a fascist. That kind of thing. Like all of that kind of stuff. Maybe that's more obvious, but it can just be like the smallest step of, sending a two line text to say, Hey, how are you doing to somebody? Can be a huge deal to someone who's going through the exit process.

Angela 6:55

I appreciate the fact that this is something that was not a hard question to answer. It's something that we, can think of things and put them into practice, whether it is that kind word. And really helping our participants understand that this is a process for them, that we're here to help them and be a light through this, and that we do recognize the struggle and how difficult it is to make different decisions and to step out of our comfort zones. So our next question when I first heard this question, I felt the burn. I was like, oh, prickly about this one. I don't know why. Maybe I can figure it out. What is our relationship to anger today? Who wants to start?

Lauren 7:47

Try to answer this as best I can. For me, I just used to react to it or just go with it, so really it comes down to self-awareness. And so nowadays it's funny with me having a DHD only because, like I'll drop the shampoo bottle in the shower and lose my mind. But like as far as. As stuff that I should be pissed off about. So I find that the anger is still there, but at the same time I can stop and think, okay, so what can I do about this right now? So there is a way to use it constructively. Like it's a valid emotion in everything. I never re, I never recommend anyone, oh, just lose your anger altogether.'cause sometimes it's actually fitting.

Angela 8:23

true story. Do you have any examples of ways that your self-awareness changed?

Lauren 8:29

Yeah, actually. So I had dated a sociopath just after I had left the movement and that guy pissed me off to no end and rightfully so. it was basically a case of saying, okay, this isn't a me problem. He's like touching on all the points where like he knows that it's gonna get me going, so I need to get rid of this guy and how am I gonna do it?

Angela 8:50

So he was like pushing your buttons on purpose from the sound of it

Lauren 8:53

Oh, that's one thing that they are very good at. So the gaslighting piece, like I know it works on some pe on some people. They actually believe that it's a them problem, but for others it just pisses us right off. But the thing is they're looking for a reaction and often they get it.

Angela 9:07

true. Absolutely true. And I totally agree. Like anger is a valid emotion. My relationship with it. Oh it has been rough over the, time that I have been in existence on this earth. I wasn't taught as a young person to deal with my emotions or recognize them in any kind of healthy way. And my temper was horrible. Like it was really bad when I was younger, especially as an adolescent. And there was no thought put into consequences. It was just primal reaction and very raw. And I would say over the years, I still am quick to anger, but what I have changed in the relationship is that. I've learned to channel it into good things. Anger, it doesn't just lead to violence. Like it can lead to change. It can lead to behavioral differences in how we navigate relationships. It can be inspiring. Like Lauren, we both do a lot of art and stuff. I know that anger is an inspiration for me to create because it still gives me an outlet, but it's just a very different outlet. It's more of a healthy outlet for processing it myself.

Lauren 10:47

Yeah, and I think as long as it's in a controlled situation, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. And the reason I say controlled situation is'cause I used to scaffold for a living. So I used to jokingly tell people, oh yeah, this is what I used to be involved in. No wonder I swing a hammer for a fucking living all day. So I would take it to work I would work faster swing it harder or whatever else. But at the same time, I also got into a near fatal accident one time. Lesson learned there. Don't take your anger to work with you. You or at least try to process it before you go up and do what you're gonna do. But that being said, artwork doesn't really present much of a danger a lot of the time.

Angela 11:26

Unless you're not following safety protocols like wearing your goggles or mask or something. So I don't know if this is me imagining things, but I would swear that I am clumsier when I'm angry. Like I could be stomping around my own house or ah, and I, that's when I'm gonna trip over the ottoman and break my arm or stub my toe on something and I wonder if it's I'm touching. Like I'm too in tune with the anger and not being as situationally aware with like my actual physicality and my presence with furniture and other solid objects.

Lauren 12:13

No, you're not crazy at all.'cause I'm the same way. I couldn't tell you the number of pieces of furniture that I've tripped over just because I was off at something. It depends where our focus is at the time. It's not on.

Angela 12:23

And then it makes me even more pissed off. What about all?

Brad 12:27

domino effect of things, but like Jamie and I have talked about anger a lot and like what its use is today and what it was back then. Popular emotions for folks who are wrapped up in other angry stuff is more anger, like you're saying, the whole like domino effect of nowadays this is like good type of like anger management though, of oh, you trip over ah, damn and you say fuck or whatever, right? That's like a normal thing. A not normal thing would be like, something political pisses me off, so now I'm gonna go use violence for it. Like that's because we're searching for that answer to that anger of what we, you look at any road rage incident, like you see these are regular people most of the time that are getting just o anger overload over something trivial. You almost hit my car. Or, you flicked a cigarette out and it bounced off the side of your vehicle onto the road. These things are not gonna change. Anything but you I remember being the same way myself. I'd get so mad, like it's just work myself up to a place. But really after a while I realized what that was doing. It was making me more angry on the inside. It was affecting me, like actually physiologically, like I was having mental health issues because of it. I was, it was the domino effect got real when all those things started to happen. So I'm like, you know what? I don't think the anger's worth it. I think it's the problem. So

Angela 13:55

makes a lot of sense.

Brad 13:57

get help for that problem. Go talk to someone about it. Talk to other folks who've had anger issues too. I think that's something we do at Life After Hate. We often support each other in whatever we're going through. So it's manage that, those things.

Angela 14:12

have any of us been through anger management?

Lauren 14:15

I never took the classes themselves, but we had hit on this several times when I was doing EMDR therapy actually. So the one. Thing I learned is that anger is a secondary emotion. Typically there's something else deeper behind it. So thinking of it from when I was younger, I was 16 when I lost my dad. So it's painfully obvious that grief was the thing behind that anger was the only way I knew to express it at the time. My mom and I have talked about this extensively in the book, like during our speeches and everything, and she always enjoys going, oh, what a little shit Lauren was. But the reality is that we were all grieving as a family and like she definitely had some of her own anger to work through as well. So I feel like it's like a fairly common human experience, but like we can learn how to manage it.

Liz 15:01

So I grew up not, I grew up in a household where you weren't allowed to express any emotions, really. Not just anger, but and so I still struggle with like not being hard on myself for being angry at. Someone or a situation or something like that. And I've actually taken, and I'm still taking I think it's called mindfulness therapy. And so we just, we learn how to just recognize like when we're like getting to that tipping point and just developing like whether that tipping point is anxiety or fear or anger or like an, any kind of emotion that we just don't feel like we necessarily have control over when we let it out. So I've found that's been really helpful for me to just. Recognize okay I'm allowed to be human too. I'm allowed to feel these things. I don't have to just eat my feelings all the time. I can actually express'em. And that there are healthy ways to express'em. There are like healthy ways to get yourself back into a more e equilibrium regulated kind of state afterwards. For me it's still definitely a work in progress.

Angela 16:22

I definitely hear you there and. Appreciate that you shared that. I think sometimes it's hard, especially around topics like anger to say, I'm still working on it. I'm gonna be working on it for a while, that it's not all just magically fixed with a few therapy sessions. So good on you and thank you.

Jamie 16:45

I don't know if this is gonna make sense, but I'll toss it out there anyways and

Angela 16:49

Let's try.

Jamie 16:50

Alright, here we go. I'm still pretty angry, but I'm angry for different reasons. I'm angry at what the world's like right now, the polarization and, people making the same stupid fucking mistakes that we all do, and that, that makes me angry, but that also gives me the fuel to do what we do, to do what I do, to write about it, to fight back against it. So I'm using that anger to shift it to a more positive outlook to fuel what I do, to write, to help me write what I write, to go through that thought process. So I'm angry, but for better reasons I guess.

Lauren 17:26

Jamie, what that almost sounds like is you're angry because you have empathy for other people.'cause you know how this stuff can affect others.

Jamie 17:32

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Lauren.

Angela 17:34

So let me ask this. I hope this makes sense. Do y'all think that the reasons we're angry have an impact on how that anger is channeled and our relationship to it? I'm gonna answer my own question. You all seem deep in thought, so let me give you some food for it. I don't know if there are terms that exist to describe what I'm about to say, and I'm just like ripping them off unknowingly. But the way I reason things is there is justifiable anger in the world, but it comes down to my values as a human. When I used to run around like a little parrot, yapping about the Jewish conspiracy, the, all of these different things that we were fed when we were involved in the violent far right, that anger was useless. It was hollow. It had a completely different feel to the anger I feel today at the injustices in the world, at how we hurt each other as humans, how we strip each other of our human and civil rights. It feels like a more solid, justifiable anger to me, and it feels more, I. Like a tool to channel into something better, like what you were talking about, Jamie, and to use it to make a difference and not just to stand around howling and screaming like an idiot. Trying to draw attention to myself because wow. Pay attention to me. It seems like justifiable anger is a healthier type of anger, if that makes sense.

Brad 19:30

I think touching on what you're saying and what Jamie was saying as well the ability to master our, anger within, in ourselves and knowing what we, how we manage it. I. Like Jamie, you're saying? Yeah, maybe I'll go write an article about some stuff that I'm really interested in about something that made me really angry. You're channeling that and then you're looking at something and you're breaking it down though, and you're not letting it overtake you. You're letting it, you're working through it rather than working against it.'cause like you, again, I'll use the analogy of the road rage. The two guys get outta the car and they start hitting each other and then they go back in their cars and drive away. Have they solved the anger or have they what's happened there? Like what was the outcome of the anger? There's still other. Things that will now probably follow that in this day and age. Maybe someone recorded it and then, you're reliving your anger, you're watching yourself on the internet of, some awful video that you never intended for it to be there, but that's what happened with your anger. But instead of that, I now think when somebody yells at me in a car, right? I look at them and I smile at them and I wave. Maybe they're more angry now, but I'm good. I used to engage in their anger though, and take and be them, be with them. But I'm like, my anger, I'm gonna res I'm gonna leave that for me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have that. I'm gonna deal with my own, but I'm not gonna let, I'm not gonna have that guy's business. I got enough stuff going on here I'll smile and wave and. Go about my day. I might have made somebody even more angry with my passiveness. But how does that look though? That's how I manage it. Somebody else might put the window down and say, Hey buddy, are you okay? Ask them a question like that. But like it's I think it's really about ourselves and I think when we understand what's like the toxic anger that we feel and what's the, we should feel some anger. Obviously if you stub your toe, you're like, oh, that's an, that's a good emotion to have and go, damn, I better go get that ice pack. I'm gonna be off my feet for the next eight days.'cause I'm super old now. And the way it goes. But we know impacts and we can manage that. I think it's just I think it's useful reflection. It's just a thing that we, a lot of humans don't do. And if you can reflect more on what are those things that make you angry and. Where does it take you and what your response mechanisms are? I think, yeah, it's helpful.

Angela 22:01

All right. Those were all really good, deep answers. I applaud you and myself. Yay. Alright. This one is, gosh, this question was so like, I don't know right in my face because it, I'm experiencing it right now. But the question is, was it challenging to find a therapist who felt safe, capable in whom we could trust?

Brad 22:30

Since I talk about this a lot in my work about how, when we talk about the practice of CVE, of the work that we do at Life After Hate and stuff like that, and how it's come so far from being non-practical and people not knowing where they should go or what they should do, and how doors at therapy offices were closed over and over again. Because as soon as you mention ideology or involvement in a politically violent extremist movement the, some of these practitioners just look at you and go what? It's not their fault. They haven't been trained for this, right? It's starting to come up in schools of, so social work in North America, at least. I, I've heard of some more courses being taught about this stuff but still not widespread enough. But I think it's also, there's a, There's something else that's really not, that people that have these lived experiences, don't say when they go to the therapist is that this was an outcome of my al my already present problem. So why don't we look at the present problems, right? What led them there? Maybe it was alcoholism, maybe it was abuse, maybe it was those things start there and then go down the road and then talk about that. Don't come right outta the block and go, I was a Nazi. Because then people will be like, that's not really a necessary starting point anyway because it's, it is all the other surrounding things that cause the innately bad violent behavior, right? So it doesn't really matter if it's extremism or domestic violence or whatever. So then they can relate to those things, right? Like they can say those things if you say, Hey, I had a real bad childhood. We can start with that. And then moved to there. But yeah it's tough. And I know I had a lot of doors slammed in my face along the way from counselors'cause they were like, oh hell no, I ain't helping this guy. Maybe it was a moral issue for them. Some of them maybe it was that they just didn't know. Or maybe it was just lack of like overall knowledge of what those ideologies do to the community. Yeah.

Lauren 24:41

I think too, like most therapists are not looking to do any unintentional harm to people. So if something feels outta their comfort zone, like they do have every right to turn it down, but at the same time, it would be helpful if they'd find a referral for these people. Like I've heard this story several times too.

Angela 24:56

You say these people like you've never been one of these people, Lauren.

Lauren 25:00

I was one of these people. wording there.

Angela 25:02

I just had to pick at you for a sec, so I disagree a little bit. Right now at this point in history, I live in the deep south. I don't trust other human beings right now to make healthy decisions for me, to want the best for me to care about my wellbeing. And I do now, there was a point in time when I was probably the one that cared the least about my own wellbeing, and I don't run it potential therapists screaming. I used to be like, I, was this and this, and. But it is a big part of what has led me to this point in my life, to the human and the woman that I am today. And I want them to know that history. I want them to know that. But that also comes with recognizing that a therapist may not be trauma informed in the way that I need them to be trauma informed. They. May not have a deep understanding of push and pull factors. They may not, there's, a whole volume of things they may not have awareness of that would be potentially more helpful with someone who would, and I am not trying to just plug our own programs and things, but I've always felt that our mental health training is exceedingly important because of these things. And I also understand that a lot of our participants come to us already on trusting there's already a certain level of paranoia or belief in conspiracy theories or things of that nature. And I have always found. A more positive reaction when we're able to match individuals with mental health professionals that do have at least some foundational basic knowledge of what we were involved in. So that's my slight, like I feel a little different, but for me it is challenging. I have high expectations because I've worked hard to get to where I am. And it's not that I'm expecting someone to put in like a whole bunch of extra work to be able to assist me, but I appreciate some, specialty knowledge when it comes to this kind of stuff, especially if I'm looking for a very deep level of therapy, like psychotherapy or something like that.

Jamie 27:58

I haven't actually gone to a therapist for anything like this. I've gone to a therapist for other stuff, but nothing in relation to this. I can't really offer an opinion.

Brad 28:08

Jamie I just wanted to just build on Jamie's thing for a moment. That's a common thing that, and it's okay too for anyone who's listening that maybe this isn't a thing that's looming in your head that you gotta go deal with. Maybe that's, that just isn't it? Maybe it's something else. And yeah, go deal with that. We encourage that as That's, it should, that shouldn't be something to be ashamed of or anything.

Jamie 28:30

definitely not.

Lauren 28:32

I. Actually I got lucky with the first ever therapist that I saw. Like I wondered how he was so understanding of all of it. But as it turns out he was in the social work profession for a very good reason. So he used to be involved in criminal activity himself, and he also has a relative who's involved in area and brotherhood currently. So yeah, I feel like I just got very lucky there. But the way it started was I went for other issues. Like I was newly sober at the time, wondering how to stay that way. It's just eventually the group activity came out.

Angela 29:05

That makes sense. All of it does. And I do wanna second what Brad said, for anyone listening and feeling like, oh shit, I didn't like, I flunked the therapy part of it or something. Each of our paths is a unique journey. We. Ultimately get to the same place where we're disengaged and we're whole as humans, but that doesn't mean that we have to follow the exact same path to get there. That we have to make every decision like everyone else. And that is a really good point to share with our listeners and for individuals who are thinking about contacting us. Lauren, I'm with you. First therapy is something that I've experienced for the majority of my life. I acted out when I started going through adolescence and was sent into a criminal deterrent program for nonviolent youth, and it was therapy and I didn't go there because I was like, I have these problems and I need you to fix'em for me. Like it was mandated that I go there. But it still started, a lifetime of tapping into mental health support. And when I was released from prison, I was court ordered to do group therapy and psychotherapy. What really caught my attention was that the practitioner was a former addict, and even from that very beginning start, I thought how apropos that I would be able to speak with someone that didn't just learn something out of a book or in a classroom, but had that lived experience of knowing this is what this feels like and this is, what it is to be at this point in life or at this stage of growth or healing. And that has always meant a lot to me moving forward through the rest of my life with therapy. So that reminded me. What you shared reminded me of that Lauren. our next question is. When we have participants or others ask for our advice around therapy, what is the advice that you personally give? And that can be telling someone, Hey, if you've been through this, then maybe you should seek out some practitioners that are particularly trauma informed. It could be seeking out a specific type of therapy like CBT or EMDR or things like that. What advice do you give.

Brad 32:05

Yeah, usually I start by asking about whether they've experienced it therapy what and if so, what types and whether or not it worked whether they liked it, just, general conversation about it. And. So it is also based on what type of participant we're talking about. If it's a mandated participant, there's a different kind of element that we have to like, encourage, encourage them to go to all of their things that have been mandated by the courts. So we're just acting as a positive model, if you will, by saying, Hey, make sure you're following the different things that you have to do.'cause if this, then that, right? But the non-mandated ones who are going to voluntary therapy for themselves for whatever reasons yeah, usually just it's giving them advice. If something's not working, don't, shut the door on therapy there is someone out there that's for you. Relative to what you were saying Angie, about the whole like being in the south situational awareness, maybe it's maybe do online. Virtual therapy sessions in another state, try to like still value your mental health, but there is somebody there for you. There is someone out there. It's just a matter of finding that someone took me a while and I think it's others in here for whatever reasons that you've gone been to therapy. It can take a bit to find the right person that you feel comfortable talking with. So it's having those important conversations about that. It's not weird if you like discontinue services from somebody that if you've met them once or even twice, three times and you're like, ah, you know what? This is not really working out. Don't stop your mental health journey there. Keep, keep that in mind that you can continue that. And that's I guess that's the advice that, that I work on with people. And often it, it's keeping it up, it's valuing their mental health just as much as their physical health. So that's those are some areas.

Angela 34:01

Absolutely great advice, Brad. Thank you for sharing that.

Lauren 34:05

For me, actually, most of my participants are not court mandated. So that being said, like they are interested in this stuff. And for me, I've also tried several different things over the years in a therapist's office myself. So what I actually do is just tell them how it went for me, what to expect, that kind of thing. That way they can just make up their own mind on what they want and whether they wanna go. And I also say you do this when you feel you're ready for it.'cause like it's a lot to dive into.

Angela 34:34

Absolutely it is. It's a very personal experience and it's just as unique for each human as each human is unique.

Jamie 34:45

if I sense that, they're, they need to reach out to someone to, digest what they're doing, I will suggest, you perhaps should, look into, maybe some like anger management stuff. Take a look at that and get into some therapy and whatnot. So I, I will suggest that most of mine already in those things anyways. Which is great. And, I've always asked, how's it going for you? Do you feel it's worthwhile for you? Is it valuable for you? And everyone says yes. Even if they take the tiniest little bit bit from it and, learn from it, it's beneficial for them.

Liz 35:18

I would say to go in with very specific goals about what you want to achieve, because I think looking back on my own mental health journey, I. Which is now spanning over three decades, which is a bit a bit to digest on its own is I think for me, one of the biggest mistakes I made was just getting on this merry-go-round of talk therapy. It's every week I go and I talk about my problems and then I come back and I have the same problems and then I talk about them some more. And and certainly talk therapy does have a place, and it has, it does have value to have that release valve and to have somebody listening to you. But if they're not giving you tools or encouragement to make real change, then like at a certain point you have to be asking yourself like what am I doing this for? Do I still wanna be coming to this person in five years? Having the exact same conversations about the exact same things and feeling really. In some ways not that much further ahead. Yeah, again talk therapy can be very helpful. But, I try now to go into therapy with some goals. let's have focused sessions and so I, I think it's important to have those goals. And I think it's also important to tell people that it's okay to go into therapy. And want to direct those goals. You don't have to wait for the therapist to say the, these are like, these are the things I think we should be working on. Sure, they're gonna have some valuable input, but you're allowed to have your own ideas and your own map of like where you wanna go and where you want the work to take you. It's not just a it's not just a placeholder for having coffee and blowing off steam with your friends.

Angela 37:12

That too is a great point. Especially for someone like me, I'm the type that goes in that's oh, I don't know about doing work. I hope there's no homework. And then at the end of a session, if there's not homework, I bitch about that too. I'm like, what the fuck? It's like I grudgingly go into it, but I know that it's beneficial and that it's helpful in the end. So I think that my advice for someone is if you're going for mental health support, don't compare yourself to others and you know what others' issues are and how we work through those things. Because we are all unique. We learn in different ways, we take in information differently. While. A certain type of therapy may feel comfortable to Jamie or someone else on the team. It may not feel as comfortable to me to follow that same type of therapy and that it's okay to educate yourself and explore what's available to you. so our final question is another one about advice. Also a great question. What is the worst advice we've ever been given as formers? Can I start this one? As soon as I heard or read this question, I was like, they must have been thinking about me when they came up with this question. There was a person that I worked with for more than a decade and. There came a time when I decided that after almost two decades of doing public speaking, that I really needed to take a break to put my past in the past, in the rear view mirror. And I communicated it transparently with individuals that asked me to speak or I otherwise had a history with. And when I communicated that to one of these individuals, they told me that I needed to find some new friends, some new mental health support, and do what I had to, because if Holocaust survivors can tell about their experiences, I should have no problem sharing mine. And that was the end of that relationship. That was a boundary that there wasn't even a discussion about crossing it. It was just a hard, no spite, having such a long standing relationship. And it was one of the most harmful, hurtful bits of advice that I have ever heard in this journey as a former. And there's nothing that I can even think of in my experience that comes close to that one. It's still a sore spot for me years after the fact. But that was mine. Thank you for letting me share first.'cause it has been burning to come out for a while.

Brad 40:33

You've told me that this story so many times, Ange, and it resonates in such a way that people should know that no matter who you are, your boundaries are yours. And those aren't for others to discover and manipulate. That's similarly what happens in the movement. People are manipulated, they are showcased, they are gaslighted, they are whatever you name. The bad thing it happens there, but it also happens to formers. Constantly. And that example is something that happens a lot to formers. They, and then people that don't even know, like I spoke with one couple years ago, and he said something very similar. He had military experience and that was the going trend at that time. They were talking about people with military experience and it's like these people are throwaways or whatever, that it doesn't matter'cause they also have the military experience, the active duty and then the extremism thing. You can imagine the situations that they're dealing with. And they're just assumed, oh yes, you must talk, you must say all those things about that. It's a similar type of thing where it's just it's still trauma though. It's still, I. It's not one's worse than the other. It's there. Of course, we can deduce certain But like we're not doing that. We're just talking about an individual that doesn't need to be, have their boundaries busted around. The situation for me was to keep doing talks about the story more, do more. You can do more. You can do three in a day. Actually you can do a week of three in a day, right? So many trips that I would go on, it would be like, oh yeah, today we've got one in the morning and one's meeting and then an afternoon one. And by the end of the day, I'm sitting there going. I don't know if I want to jump off a bridge figuratively, or like what? Go get like loser drunk or what? Like I didn't know what was the idea and I shouldn't have been feeling like that because people shouldn't be doing, giving you that. Oh yeah, you can do it buddy. Really you can do I sure I can do it, but what's the outcome? What's the consequence of doing? Keep doing. And it just I spoke with another couple of guys and from that time on I really started to roll back on being paraded places. because whose story is it? I don't know. I don't know. It's just the bad advice column that's in there. Yep.

Angela 43:36

feel for you, I have had almost the exact same experience. Paraded is a fitting descriptive word. It is like they ring every last bit out of you and then it's thanks. Bye. Thanks. See ya. And it's surely you can do another half hour. Surely you can add, Another session. I found it especially. Around college campuses and like a university or somewhere that has multiple campuses and will say on this campus on Monday you're gonna do four lectures, you're gonna do two for classes. A whole body like student body, you're gonna address this special club on Tuesday. You're doing these 15 and dinner at night. And it is exhausting not just physically, but mentally, spiritually, emotionally, because like you said, what are you left with? A minimal check if you're lucky, that will barely cover your travel expenses and never even cover the time away from work you actually miss and. A lot of times as formers early on, if we've chosen to be public, we feel like we have to do those things. That's what's expected of us and we're not really trying to be formers if we say no. and

Brad 45:10

And gaslight it. if you don't,

Angela 45:12

yes. gaslit.

Brad 45:14

must talk about it, but then don't talk about it because shame on you.

Angela 45:19

yep. Exactly.

Brad 45:21

oh, okay which one should I do? Should I ride the bike or should I not ride the bike? I don't what you tell me. Oh, wait, you wanna hear the story still?

Lauren 45:30

I feel like that's actually an important word here. So shame. Like the shame and guilt. A lot of us experience is basically being exploited by the sounds of it.

Brad 45:40

Yeah, it is. Tony, we talk about this too a lot over the years. And at the beginning he, he said this exact stuff to me. He said, when you connect to your story, like when you say it. And once you get to there and you're connected in there, that whole like shame piece, you start clicking in on it, you start understanding it, you start at times it's the principles in it, like in learning about shame and how it, what it constitutes for you as a person. And you if you're not able to own that and there you are being paraded around and like unconsciously this might be creating a beast. And I know some some former who have gone back to the movement for solace because it brought them back to Square. One of saying, wait, I can't do that though. I can't face me for real.

Angela 46:41

Right.

Brad 46:43

That movement helped them face themselves. So it's almost like inadvertently the good is creating the bad down the road or a different type of bad. Like they talk about that reciprocal situation where they go from being a radical right person to like a fanatical, violent left wing person. And where do we wanna send people? No, I think our goal, and this is I heard from you and many people that have been around this for so long, is we wanna call people in and meet them where they're at, not force people to be making other things. So it's, yeah, it's that whole insight of where the work starts, right?

Angela 47:28

It is, and I think it really drives people into another concept thanks to Tony. Toxic shame. It breeds toxic shame and continues to instill it in individuals who are doing everything in their power to shed it and to learn better habits and better ways to process.

Lauren 47:51

I'm gonna match this with best piece of advice I've ever been given in terms of public speaking. So knowing your own limit. So it was actually my former therapist and said, okay, you gotta realize over time, if you're relying on public speaking as a form of therapy, you're actually not even really healing. Yourself, you're just desensitizing yourself to what you went through. Yeah. I think he was talking specifically in my case,'cause like I'm someone who used to experience really bad dissociation as a result of PTSD, so that's what he was on about.

Angela 48:23

it's good advice to carry around when doing that kind of stuff, because at the end of the day, when you share an intimate glance at any part of yourself, whether it's your emotions or your experiences, it can lead to that if you don't know your own limit of like just burnout, of going backwards in your healing process, all kinds of things. So that is a really great piece of advice, and that is a good balance too, the worst pieces of advice we've ever received.

Lauren 49:01

Yeah, and I say that too'cause I grew up in a family where they had that old fashioned thinking at no fault of their own'cause this is what they were taught. But it was, I was basically told several times as a kid, just make the best of it. And frankly, I ever have to have, if I got ever gotta hear that again, I'm gonna go ape shit.

Jamie 49:17

Yeah, for me, I'm an academic and I got told I probably shouldn't be very vocal about my past being in academia. But that's, that to me is dangerous. Talking is part of healing. If I can't face the past, how am I gonna move forward? And within the academic sphere, I obviously have value. Not that I'm patting myself on the back, but I've been there and a lot of academics haven't, so I can actually give you perspective that you can't find

Angela 49:46

Yeah.

Brad 49:47

I love that.

Angela 49:49

Terrible.

Brad 49:50

I love that you don't care about what that advice is.'cause that's awful and really interesting that from that perspective in the elitism that exists there already in academia often I know some wonderful academics as

Jamie 50:08

Oh yeah, a hundred percent.

Brad 50:09

but I know the, I could picture the exact human who would say something like that, who would be like, oh, you should never say that. Yeah, I'd look at them and be like yeah, for sure. Man. Don't have your own story in life. Don't want to talk about your own life. Tell me what to do, actually. Tell me more about what I should do with myself as a grownup. I don't know. Yeah, I like your attitude towards that. That is like some of the worst advice possible to tell people to like, forget about who they are as a what are as a person, and that you can't be an aca. Probably what they're saying is that you shouldn't be an academic. At the same time

Jamie 50:47

That could be a two. That could be

Brad 50:49

as, that they're they're saying if you just hide it what if someone finds out and then calls you out on it?

Jamie 50:55

Which bound to happen.

Brad 50:57

just a liar walking around.

Jamie 50:59

I never, I was just okay,

Angela 51:01

And that kind of disregards the whole study of society, of human beings is if we can't share our lived experience, how fuck are you gonna learn about human beings? How are you going to learn about a plethora of, things within academia? It just makes no sense. Like it's. Yeah I really the way that you think about it as like a, oh yeah, watch me now, motherfucker.

Jamie 51:37

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Angela 51:39

Yes. Very good. Awesome. Does anybody wanna add anything to our conversation, any of the questions that we've answered? How do y'all feel about this one? I like this conversation a lot. I think it took us into new areas that we haven't really gone too far into.

Lauren 51:58

it too.

Angela 51:59

Yeah. Cool. All right. I'm gonna do an outro and then we can all be outro. Yo.

Brad 52:07

I love that.

Angela 52:08

Pretend that didn't come outta my mouth.

Brad 52:11

No, that was good.

Angela 52:12

All right y'all. We answered some great unique questions today that give deep insight into our world. We answer questions in good faith with the hope that our input makes a lasting difference in the lives of others. Whether you are exiting violent extremism, love someone who is or w work with those who are, thank you all for chatting and thank you listeners for listening. If you have a question or curiosity, please feel free to email us at the daily former@lifeafterhate.org. DM us on socials or leave a comment on our post. Until next time, stay curious y'all. Bye.

Jamie 52:54

everyone.