Ep. 4: Emerging Leaders: Transitions and Challenges in the AEC Industry

On this episode, we navigate the changing leadership landscape within the AEC industry.  Without strategic planning and effective upskilling, many firms struggle to harness the full potential of their employees. We emphasize the significance of a comprehensive training strategy to transition professionals from technical roles to leadership ones.

Plus our experts delve into generational mindset shifts including the desire to work less hours; prompting many to reevaluate traditional leadership development approaches including clear career paths. We hope this episode serves as a beacon of hope for firms experiencing challenges in their quest to cultivate future AEC leaders.

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Transcript

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Welcome to the
AEC Groundbreaking Growth Podcast.

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Hosted by Stambaugh Ness.

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Hi Everyone; welcome.

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I’m Emily Lawrence, and I’m joined today
by my co-host, Jen Knox.

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Good morning, everyone.
Great to be with you again today.

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We have two awesome colleagues
on the line, Scott Butcher and Kate Allen.

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Both are actually Directors in our

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Strategic Growth Advisory Group here

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at Stambaugh Ness
and bring kind of unique experiences.

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They’ve both worked and led AEC firms.

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Kate has an engineering degree herself.

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Scott’s
been really heavy in business development,

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and both now kind of leverage

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that expertise to guide and coach
and deliver

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some learning and development,
strategic planning for clients of SN.

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So really unique perspectives, and we’re
excited to really dive

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into emerging leaders
and AEC for today’s discussion.

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I’d like to kind of pose
this first to Kate and Scott.

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What are some of those challenges
that you see emerging

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leaders
really facing in today’s environment.

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Yeah, Jen, Thanks.

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I would say one of the number one things
that they’re concerned with is

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how do I get from being
a technical expert

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to being a management expert.

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How do I do things, and then
how do I get things done through others?

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So it’s making that transition
to more of a people leader

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instead of a project
and task get things done.

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And unfortunately, without specific
training, you’re kind of expected

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to learn it on your own or watch other
role models and see what they might do.

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What do you like?

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What don’t you like?

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Instead of being with intent
that we actually help you make that move

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to that emerging leader
kind of that management role?

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So I think that’s a big challenge
that they’re facing today, and that’s

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a lot of soft skills or which are now
called power skills, right?

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So that, to me,
is one of the biggest challenges

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because of the lack of engagement
in our firms

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that Gallup tends to talk about a lot
is really most offset by that direct

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management

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interaction between the team members
and the team leaders,

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the group leaders, the project managers,
those kinds of things.

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You know, it’s interesting, and we’ve
all four worked in the environment

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within AEC firms, and the model is pretty
basic, and it’s been around for decades.

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You’re hired.

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You learn to become let’s
say it’s an engineering firm;

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you become an engineer,
you get good at engineering.

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Maybe you’re named a lead engineer,
real good lead engineer.

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Let’s make you a department manager,
or maybe we’ll make you a project manager,

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or maybe both because you don’t
have enough on your plate.

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Oh, you’re good at being a project manager
and a department manager.

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Let’s promote
you into company leadership, and it’s

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all based on
the ladder is about those hard skills

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that you utilize
in this case and engineering,

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as well as you take on
some of the soft skills,

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maybe more so as a department manager
or a project manager.

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But firms aren’t even training department
managers and project managers.

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They’re just like,
Are you good at this? Go do it.

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And so that infrastructure
is just entirely lacking.

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And then, you move up
as an emerging leader in the firm.

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And what do you know
about bringing in work?

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What do you know
about managing a business?

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What do you know about really managing
a whole team

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beyond the specific focus of a project?

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And the reality is firms are really,
really struggling to provide this

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training because, for a lot of firms, it’s
not even cultural to do it.

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So, you know, what is the

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challenge faced by emerging leaders?

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You know, right now, they’re not even
being trained to move into those roles.

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They are being put into those roles
without the proper training.

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It’s like, go drive a car.

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Oh, you’ve never been in a car.

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Well, here’s
where the key goes. Good luck.

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When I was first
asked to go out and sell work, it’s

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funny; I was in a practice in health care,
so there’s always a golf tournament.

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It’s like, okay,
I got to go warm up my golf game.

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That’s how I’m going to bring in work; it
is I need to get out to the golf course.

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You know, no one told me that.

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I just figured that’s

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how I’m going to be around my clients
is, being on the golf course, right?

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And again, emerging leaders like Scott,
what you’re talking about is it’s

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kind of a blend of we need to teach people
skills, but we also need to start

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introducing how does the business work,
not just how does your practice work,

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but how does the business work around
the practice

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that makes that practice successful?

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I wonder, what is the

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reason behind that not happening?

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Is it because leaders are sort of like,
well, I had to figure it out?

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And so, you know, that’s
just kind of the way you learn

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is you just figure it out.

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I think it’s
somewhat cultural in the industry

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because every firm we go to,
we hear the same story.

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And I don’t think it’s the...

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“Well, I had to go figure it out.
You go figure it out. Have fun.

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Welcome to the party.”
I don’t think it’s that

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as much as they don’t even they’re
not even thinking that way.

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The firm leadership teams are so focused
on running the business,

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keeping the doors open, getting work
out the door, doing all those things.

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And then it’s like, okay, well, I guess
we need the next level of leadership.

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Let’s promote them. Who,
who should we promote?

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And it doesn’t even really occur.

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Oh, there’s lots and lots
and lots of training

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that is required
to improve your business acumen,

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to become a rainmaker,
to bring work into the firm,

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to be a better leader of people,
to be a better communicator.

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I mean, just look at projects.

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The number one reason that projects fail,
according to research

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from the Project Management
Institute, is communication.

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So people who are struggling
with communication on projects

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are now being asked to communicate
to potential clients,

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communicate to their internal teams,
the employees, and they’ve

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never been given that skill set
because nobody’s really thought about it.

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It’s almost like,

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obviously, that this should really be part
of a strategic plan, right?

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It’s when we think about the next
5 to 10 years, what are the gaps

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from people retiring or leadership
leaving that need to be filled, right?

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And then what are the skill sets

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that need to be supplemented
to get that individual to that level?

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And I think that’s why it’s so tough, is

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because maybe we’re not thinking
strategically or far enough in advance

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because it takes a long time
to develop some of these skills.

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Right, if you’re actually preparing
for ownership transition,

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that takes about ten years in order
to find a new CEO and senior leaders

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within the company, you need to start
laying the groundwork super early.

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But talking about strategic
planning is funny.

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I think

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most often people think about strategic
planning as, what is our revenue goal?

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How many employees do we want to be?

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How much revenue do we want to drive,
what kind of market expansion do we want?

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And that’s all we talk about that
in terms of quantitative growth.

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But there’s another component of that,
and that’s really that qualitative growth,

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right?

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That’s really shoring up the roots
of a tree, like the way that we express

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a quantitative is the tree
and the branches.

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But then there’s that root ball,
and you have to make that really strong.

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And their root ball
is all about making sure

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that we have good project managers,
good project management processes,

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that we have people
that are engaged, right,

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and that we’ve given them
the tools to be engaged

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because they know how to do their work,
they know what’s expected of them.

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So oftentimes,

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as true, the strategy is also
not just in place

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to plan for that qualitative changes
that need to take place in a company.

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But it’s also an opportunity
to bring your plus one.

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So a lot of times, strategic planning
is done by senior leaders in the company.

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Well, those senior leaders,
if they’re nearing retirement, in all

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actuality, they’re planning a company
for the people behind them.

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Right.

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So bringing in your plus one and actually

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bringing those emerging leaders
to a strategic planning workshop

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can be significantly important

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because they want to have a voice
in the company

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that you’re creating that you want them

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to eventually take on as a privately held
firm and continue on with.

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So I think it’s important.

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And, you know, to that point,
we are definitely seeing,

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you know, when we’re
working with strategic plan clients,

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we are seeing a shift towards
being a little more intentional.

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Yeah, everybody wants to grow, and firms,
a lot of

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have had no problem
growing the past few years.

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The challenge, however, is the people.

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And so what’s happening, even companies
that are trying to bring along

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the emerging leaders, they’re
not backfilling behind them.

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And so you have these emerging leaders
with new roles, new titles

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that are still doing what they’ve
always been doing, and they can’t

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free themselves from it. It’s
sort of like a chain and a ball that’s

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pulling them down
and keeping them from advancing.

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And so, you know, I saw that
where I worked through much of my career.

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There was a group of us
that got hired around

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the same time we advanced in the companies
together, became the emerging leaders,

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became the firm leaders
as we transitioned. And,

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you know, for me,
my path was a little different

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because I was on the business
development marketing side,

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more business
focused. On the technical side,

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the emerging leaders
were still not only managing projects,

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they were still doing engineering,
they were still doing

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design on their projects.

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And that was really keeping them
from even having an opportunity

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to be a leader in the firm

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because they’re just so focused
on getting projects out the door.

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And so, Kate, you know, I think what
you and I have been seeing a lot of is

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this is happening everywhere right now,
but we have new levels of burnout

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that are happening in our firms
like maybe we’ve never seen before.

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Right.
And that burnout is, you know, there’s a

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common kind of

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condition in the marketplace
right now in our firms

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that we have a lot of people that say, I’m
not working any overtime.

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Right?

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Like, I’m done when my 40’s done,
I’m done, or whatever your schedule is.

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And we’re seeing a lot of that.

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And we’re wondering kind of what’s
contributing to that.

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And it’s interesting;
Gallup actually tracks stress

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and things like that.

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And so we have a lot going on for people.

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There’s a lot going on in the hybrid work
environment.

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Or if you’re fully remote or you’re
back in the office, it’s the pull in that

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and the new world, let’s
just say the new world format that we’re

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all trying to live through
and trying to figure out.

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We’re still very, very stressed
that stress level has not come down

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since COVID.

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You know, it’s not knowing
if there’s a recession ahead.

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It’s not knowing. It’s
having stress at home.

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And one of the things that Scott

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and I always encourage
is creating a psychologically safe space

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so that people can bring those concerns
and things into the company

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as well and into their leaders.

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So it’s like, hey,
I may not be on my A-game today.

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I have a lot that happened at home
this morning, or I need to stay home today

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because I have a lot that’s
going on here at home.

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So it’s kind of like all of a sudden,
our homes and our business has merged.

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And all of that stress,
I think, is contributing to burnout.

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So burnout is a really big topic.

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Scott and I work with a very large firm.

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We worked about 60
of their emerging leaders

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and gave them an opportunity
to choose what they wanted to do.

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Breakout groups on as we were doing,
preparing for strategic

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planning, and literally every single group
picked burnout.

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I’m sure that said something
to the leaders of the company.

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And it’s an interesting situation
to be in; they’re not the only ones.

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And we

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hear horror
stories, so the company that you know

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had a group of employees
that were willing to work

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overtime; it wasn’t enough
to get some projects out the door.

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So they made an offer to the employees
that didn’t want to work overtime.

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We’ll pay you double time.

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Nobody accepted it.

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00:12:22,933 --> 00:12:24,933
They said we’ll pay you triple time.

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Nobody accepted it.

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Work-life is incredibly important
to that demographic within the firm,

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and they were just unwilling whatsoever
to work overtime.

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So who’s going to do it then?

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The people that were already willing
to work overtime, The leadership

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that was willing to work overtime,
now they’re working even more hours.

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And so the burnout is accelerating.

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And we have to keep in mind it
is an employee’s market right now in AEC.

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Stambaugh Ness, we did some research
a couple of months ago,

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we found that 85% of design construction
firms identified recruiting staff members

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as one of the biggest challenges
that they are currently facing.

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So yeah, we’re looking at,
you know, some of the economic headwinds,

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maybe some slowdowns for firms

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00:13:06,133 --> 00:13:10,200
that are doing the horizontal, 
non-building construction.

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There’s the IIJA money that’s
continuing to flow in for years to come.

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00:13:14,933 --> 00:13:17,433
But you know,
the demographics aren’t pretty

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because the baby boomers are retiring.

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There aren’t enough

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00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,133
incoming new engineers on the construction
side, the skilled trades.

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It’s been a major issue for years.

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There aren’t enough people,
and so now there aren’t enough people.

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And your really hard workers
are burning out, and they can go anywhere

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and work and maybe go work
fewer hours for more money.

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And so we’re seeing declining loyalty
to firms across all generations.

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And specific to architecture, engineering,

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the average employee a decade ago
spent seven years with the company.

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It’s dropped to five.

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So that’s a two-year drop.

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00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,900
That is very,
very significant statistically.

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00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:57,933
And then, on the construction
side of things, it’s not as extreme,

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00:13:57,933 --> 00:14:01,766
but it’s gone from 4.3 years of loyalty
to like 3.9 years.

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00:14:02,133 --> 00:14:05,566
So employees don’t stick around
as long as they used to.

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And this is a huge impact
on your emerging leaders

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because your leaders of tomorrow
might not even be working for you tomorrow

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because they’re so burned out today
they’re out the door.

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00:14:16,066 --> 00:14:19,300
And that’s
what I think is so difficult to plan for,

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is how do we need to invest
in those emerging leaders

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so that that burnout
and that turnover doesn’t happen.

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00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,700
So as we think of all of those challenges,
right, what are the solutions then?

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What are some of those things that firms
can actually do to lighten the load on

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00:14:35,566 --> 00:14:39,300
emerging leaders, to ensure they’re
getting the skill sets they need?

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00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,533
What can we do there
to really solve that problem?

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00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:46,366
Gosh, I’m going to point back to something
I brought up a little bit

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earlier, and that’s
psychologically safe space.

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There’s a study that was done by Google

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00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,766
that talks about the highest-performing
teams, and there’s five components to it.

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00:14:56,766 --> 00:14:59,800
But the number one,
the one that matters the most,

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is that we create
psychologically safe space for people.

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And what does that mean?

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What that really means is that
I come to work, and I’m not spending

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00:15:07,333 --> 00:15:10,500
all my time trying to avoid risk or avoid

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00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:13,500
embarrassment or avoid sounding stupid.

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00:15:14,133 --> 00:15:17,500
One of the ways that I used to set this up
is if I went into a meeting and say,

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00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:20,766
“Hey, our judgment stops at the door,
all comments are welcome.

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00:15:20,766 --> 00:15:22,300
And even dumb comments,” right?

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00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:25,866
Because a dumb comment
actually might even help someone out

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00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:27,566
with the next greatest idea.

285
00:15:27,566 --> 00:15:30,866
So there really is no such thing,
in my opinion, as a dumb comment.

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00:15:30,866 --> 00:15:34,066
I know people want to debate that with me
periodically, but we’re

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00:15:34,066 --> 00:15:35,800
still putting words out into the space

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00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,500
that may generate thoughts
on someone else’s part, but it’s really

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00:15:39,866 --> 00:15:45,000
where it’s not, expensive for me
to share my opinions, to challenge

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00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,500
the status quo, to learn and be free
to ask questions, not understand.

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00:15:49,566 --> 00:15:53,333
It’s really for me, the number
one thing is we’ve got to create a safe

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00:15:53,333 --> 00:15:56,733
space,
and that’s becoming more mainstream.

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00:15:57,266 --> 00:16:00,433
You’re seeing Comcast on it; you’re
seeing more discussion on it.

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00:16:00,433 --> 00:16:04,033
It came from Amy Amundsen out of Harvard,
primarily with health care.

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00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:08,266
But it’s really; we have to move away
from any toxic environments.

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00:16:08,266 --> 00:16:12,766
We need to make people feel cared for that
we care about their well-being,

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00:16:12,766 --> 00:16:16,200
we care about their professional growth,
and that we’re creating an environment

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00:16:16,766 --> 00:16:19,466
where they can fully engage without risk.

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00:16:19,466 --> 00:16:23,000
I think is an easy way to put it.

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00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,533
Literally, Kate,
I recently had a conversation

301
00:16:25,533 --> 00:16:29,566
with an industry colleague of mine
that had a career path in her company,

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00:16:29,566 --> 00:16:34,100
an emerging leader,
and she was not backfilled.

303
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,866
So given new responsibilities

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00:16:35,866 --> 00:16:38,866
to advance in the company,
become more of a firm leader.

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00:16:38,966 --> 00:16:42,000
But she’s still having to do
everything that she did in the past.

306
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,200
And in fact, there was some even turnover
underneath that.

307
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:46,666
They’re like,
Now we don’t need to replace them.

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00:16:46,666 --> 00:16:50,400
You’re good at what you do,
and her comment is, But if I’m doing that,

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00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,500
I have no chance to follow this career
path that you laid out for me.

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00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:55,000
And they were just kind of like,

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00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:56,866
okay.

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00:16:56,866 --> 00:17:01,200
And her comment to me was, I can’t
even bring it up again with my boss

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00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,133
because I don’t want to get slapped down
again.

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00:17:03,133 --> 00:17:05,700
And I’m like.
You do not work in a safe space.

315
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:07,133
And a comment was, “Yes,

316
00:17:07,133 --> 00:17:09,300
you know, anybody that’s hiring
because I’m about done here.”

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00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:12,166
Yeah, unfortunately, right?

318
00:17:12,166 --> 00:17:14,233
Yeah, absolutely.

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00:17:14,233 --> 00:17:17,433
So as we see sort of this younger,

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00:17:17,466 --> 00:17:21,000
you know, what would be
the emerging leaders as we see them with

321
00:17:21,133 --> 00:17:27,033
higher turnover rates and some of that due
to burning out or not safe spaces

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00:17:27,866 --> 00:17:30,800
and maybe a reluctancy to grab on

323
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,366
to higher positions for fear of exactly
what you were just talking about.

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00:17:35,466 --> 00:17:39,333
What can firms do? I know, 

325
00:17:39,333 --> 00:17:41,966
first, you have to identify

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00:17:41,966 --> 00:17:45,766
emerging leaders
to even get the process started, right?

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00:17:45,766 --> 00:17:48,000
How do you go about identifying that?

328
00:17:49,933 --> 00:17:50,866
You know, I think

329
00:17:50,866 --> 00:17:55,766
a lot of emerging leaders;
they emerge

330
00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,633
just from, you see them at work,

331
00:18:00,633 --> 00:18:03,633
you see,
they have some natural leadership skills.

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00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,000
You see that people follow them,
and people relate to them.

333
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,800
And, you know, based on that,
you start to identify,

334
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,033
you know what, I could see this person
having a greater role within the company.

335
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,500
Yeah, there are assessments you can take.

336
00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:18,866
And you know, Kate, maybe you want to talk
a little bit about the assessment.

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00:18:18,866 --> 00:18:21,600
So there are tools out there
that you can use,

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00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,533
but by and large, there tends to be a gut
feel, and it’s a consensus

339
00:18:26,533 --> 00:18:29,733
gut feel typically because, when it’s
not a consensus, that’s where challenges

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00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:32,200
come within firms at the leadership level.

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00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,666
But it’s also because the person
is just a peak performer.

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00:18:35,666 --> 00:18:36,933
You’re seeing what they’re doing.

343
00:18:36,933 --> 00:18:40,766
They’re willing to try new things,
take on new responsibilities.

344
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,266
They might be asking you,
what can I do next?

345
00:18:43,266 --> 00:18:44,300
How can I help?

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00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:49,166
And they emerge as that candidate
to be the emerging leader.

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00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,333
And one of the things I look for
is somebody who’s looking beyond

348
00:18:53,333 --> 00:18:58,500
getting the next project out the door to
how can they engage in the business,

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00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:03,500
how can they proactively
want to learn and grow.

350
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,366
One of the things
I think that one of the skill sets that is

351
00:19:08,033 --> 00:19:13,000
probably most scary to most engineers
or emerging leaders is finance.

352
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,333
So starting to learn about finance.

353
00:19:15,333 --> 00:19:19,800
How does what I do on a project impact
the company’s performance?

354
00:19:20,233 --> 00:19:23,766
We all know that if we get a project out,
the clients happy, etc., etc.

355
00:19:24,233 --> 00:19:27,033
But why does it matter
if I improve efficiency?

356
00:19:27,033 --> 00:19:29,400
Why does it matter
if I get the right person on the right

357
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,400
tasks and we’re
paying the right price for that task?

358
00:19:32,533 --> 00:19:36,733
Why does it matter if I don’t push
for all these overhead add-ins in order

359
00:19:36,733 --> 00:19:40,433
to, like, “Hey, let’s
take a trip to Disneyland,” or “Hey, let’s

360
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:42,500
have this big conference
and everybody go,”

361
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:46,533
or, you know,
just understanding a little bit about how

362
00:19:46,533 --> 00:19:50,266
what you do every day kind of impacts
the overall firm performance.

363
00:19:50,833 --> 00:19:54,500
And I’m very interested when people start
to get interested in things like that

364
00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:57,900
because now it tells me they’re skating
the horizon a little bit differently.

365
00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:01,500
They’re thinking broader than just getting
the next project out the door.

366
00:20:01,966 --> 00:20:05,366
And then something Scott said earlier
is that engineers,

367
00:20:05,833 --> 00:20:07,433
they never backfill your position.

368
00:20:07,433 --> 00:20:08,633
Just so you know.

369
00:20:08,633 --> 00:20:11,733
Having been in engineering
for a good part of my life.

370
00:20:11,733 --> 00:20:14,300
And I became a Project Manager.
I became a team leader. I

371
00:20:15,366 --> 00:20:16,833
managed 30 engineers at

372
00:20:16,833 --> 00:20:20,500
one point
that did nothing but health care, MEP.

373
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,133
I never got backfilled.

374
00:20:22,133 --> 00:20:23,700
I still was doing projects.

375
00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:26,733
I was still trying to make sure
that the project went out.

376
00:20:26,733 --> 00:20:28,333
I was still stamping drawings.

377
00:20:28,333 --> 00:20:31,333
I was like a mini Principal, basically.

378
00:20:31,566 --> 00:20:35,533
But I’m still projects, I’m still selling,
but most of my selling is recurring

379
00:20:35,533 --> 00:20:36,266
selling.

380
00:20:36,266 --> 00:20:40,400
It’s not going out and thinking
about new markets or thinking about

381
00:20:41,933 --> 00:20:43,633
new clients, those kinds of things.

382
00:20:43,633 --> 00:20:46,566
Except for if I get the opportunity

383
00:20:46,566 --> 00:20:49,800
through what I’m already doing,
taking care of existing.

384
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,200
So anyway,
I think that we hardly ever backfill.

385
00:20:53,266 --> 00:20:54,966
That’s
one of the problems that we have, is

386
00:20:54,966 --> 00:20:59,366
we don’t really open the space for people
to think about how they manage people,

387
00:20:59,366 --> 00:21:03,166
to learn
how to right-size it for the right person.

388
00:21:03,233 --> 00:21:06,900
Like, you know, how I might manage
one person could be different than what

389
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:08,000
the other person needs.

390
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,100
And I don’t even get time

391
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:12,900
to think about that because I’m so busy
still getting projects out the door

392
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:17,800
or getting multiple projects out the door
with multiple Project Managers, now.

393
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,400
The space isn’t made to sit
and think about people.

394
00:21:22,133 --> 00:21:25,100
Yeah, so this lack of strategy,

395
00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:28,300
because this is corporate strategy,
is what we’re talking about here,

396
00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:29,700
an utter lack of it.

397
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:33,300
So if you’re promoting people
into new roles, new positions

398
00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:37,033
to create leaders, but you’re
not freeing them from the burden of

399
00:21:37,033 --> 00:21:40,200
at least some of their responsibilities,
they’re never going to get there.

400
00:21:40,733 --> 00:21:44,566
So companies need to be
far more intentional about doing this.

401
00:21:44,633 --> 00:21:46,733
We know

402
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:48,733
what the issue is.

403
00:21:48,733 --> 00:21:49,933
We know what the cure is.

404
00:21:49,933 --> 00:21:55,700
But for some reason, the bridge
between the issue and the cure tends

405
00:21:55,700 --> 00:22:00,333
to be a very long one, and sometimes it’s
too long for people to navigate.

406
00:22:00,766 --> 00:22:04,100
But if we’re being intentional,
then we are understanding the importance

407
00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:06,600
of doing that backfill.
If we’re being intentional,

408
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,600
we are understanding
the importance of the training.

409
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,066
Give these emerging leaders
the financial acumen skills they need.

410
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,400
Give these emerging leaders
the business development skills they need.

411
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,033
Give these emerging leaders

412
00:22:18,033 --> 00:22:21,533
the people and communication skills
that they’re going to need to succeed.

413
00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:25,233
And it doesn’t happen in a one-hour
training session.

414
00:22:25,233 --> 00:22:27,333
It doesn’t happen in a one-day boot camp.

415
00:22:27,333 --> 00:22:28,733
Yes, those are important.

416
00:22:28,733 --> 00:22:31,800
They are elements
that contribute to the bigger picture.

417
00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:37,133
But the bigger picture is you learn
by doing. You look at adult learning,

418
00:22:37,133 --> 00:22:39,466
lecture is a very small percentage of it.

419
00:22:39,466 --> 00:22:44,733
Lecture exposes you to new concepts,
to new ideas, to give you takeaways

420
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,233
and assignments to work on to help
build your muscle in these areas.

421
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,800
But you need to learn by doing.

422
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:58,300
There’s an example that I personally
saw earlier in my career,

423
00:22:58,366 --> 00:23:01,366
a tale of two emerging leaders
that were becoming Presidents

424
00:23:01,366 --> 00:23:02,200
of different companies.

425
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,100
And one company, they went through
a very detailed interview process,

426
00:23:07,100 --> 00:23:12,433
brought in an outside consultant,
a Board of Directors, with the consultant,

427
00:23:12,733 --> 00:23:15,866
made a decision of who that next President
was going to be.

428
00:23:16,133 --> 00:23:18,000
That next President then spent a year

429
00:23:19,566 --> 00:23:20,566
of his life

430
00:23:20,566 --> 00:23:25,566
as a mentee to the outgoing President
and learned by doing,

431
00:23:25,566 --> 00:23:28,566
sat in calls, sat in meetings, sat there

432
00:23:28,566 --> 00:23:31,566
reviewing financial documents together.

433
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,066
It worked out well.

434
00:23:33,066 --> 00:23:35,666
The other company,

435
00:23:35,666 --> 00:23:37,266
the President decided to retire.

436
00:23:37,266 --> 00:23:41,266
There wasn’t a lot of planning that
went into it, literally handed the job

437
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,600
to somebody
he thought was the heir apparent,

438
00:23:45,066 --> 00:23:48,500
approached the board to rubber-stamp
what he wanted to do.

439
00:23:49,133 --> 00:23:51,333
There was no tutoring;
there was no mentoring.

440
00:23:51,333 --> 00:23:54,000
It was a handshake,
a change of leadership.

441
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,500
One day that President was out the door.

442
00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:58,566
And within two years, the new President,

443
00:23:58,566 --> 00:24:01,566
who had been the emerging leader
who got no tutoring,

444
00:24:01,666 --> 00:24:05,233
no skill development, was gone
from the company because he failed.

445
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:10,633
So, one is intentional;
one is happenstance.

446
00:24:10,966 --> 00:24:13,500
And there’s a favorite quote of mine.
You probably heard it before.

447
00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:19,000
I think it was Louis Pasteur, “Chance
favors only the prepared mind.”

448
00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:22,600
So yeah, a prepared
mind is being intentional.

449
00:24:22,666 --> 00:24:27,300
Otherwise, chance goes off the rails
because you’re not ready for it.

450
00:24:28,566 --> 00:24:29,566
I thought you were maybe

451
00:24:29,566 --> 00:24:34,233
going to say,
“Failing to plan is planning to fail.”

452
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:38,733
But yeah, two great quotes to say you need
to be intentional about these things.

453
00:24:39,633 --> 00:24:39,933
Yeah.

454
00:24:39,933 --> 00:24:44,700
And I wonder, we mentioned the strategy,
and Kate, I think you mentioned a time

455
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:49,200
frame suggested for I think you said
ownership transition is ten years

456
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:53,266
as far as leadership transition
or succession planning

457
00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:59,100
goes; what’s the time frame
or sort of strategy to prepare for that?

458
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:03,400
I should have called that leadership
transition, right?

459
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,266
So that is getting ready
to bring in a new President or a new C,

460
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:11,266
key people in key positions
that if we were to lose those people,

461
00:25:11,633 --> 00:25:14,700
our company
would take a major hit over it.

462
00:25:15,066 --> 00:25:17,866
It takes about ten years, to be honest,

463
00:25:17,866 --> 00:25:20,833
because you also probably need
to have more than one of them.

464
00:25:20,833 --> 00:25:23,500
You can’t just pick one person and say,
Oh my gosh.

465
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:27,233
And seven years into it, they decided
something happened health-wise,

466
00:25:27,233 --> 00:25:31,500
or they decided to take another job,
or who knows what they decided.

467
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:33,500
I don’t really
want to run a whole company, right?

468
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:37,366
So you have to have multiples of them,
and you’re kind of your mentor,

469
00:25:37,366 --> 00:25:41,033
and you’re teaching them along the way,
but you’re doing it with intention again,

470
00:25:41,333 --> 00:25:45,700
and then they are also should be doing
with intention is to backfill themselves.

471
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,700
So any of those key roles,
there is our talent

472
00:25:49,700 --> 00:25:52,500
and our staff
that make sure our projects get every day.

473
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:55,633
And there are some key positions
in your company that you really need to

474
00:25:55,633 --> 00:26:00,600
keep your eye on, that you need to start
doing planning for transitions.

475
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,766
Who is going to take over?

476
00:26:01,766 --> 00:26:05,600
We have a lot of retirement going on right
now, and it’s shocking

477
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,633
how many people don’t have anybody
to backfill that retirement position.

478
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,133
Sometimes you can’t.

479
00:26:11,133 --> 00:26:13,933
Sometimes, I worked with a company
one time, a long time ago

480
00:26:13,933 --> 00:26:17,833
that had all these relationships
in Washington, DC.

481
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:23,333
That’s really hard to repeat, and that’s
the founder and the owner of the company.

482
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,366
So if there isn’t a person
that’s been groomed beside you

483
00:26:26,366 --> 00:26:29,600
for at least ten years,
going to all the lobbying meetings

484
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,366
and sitting in all the meetings
in Washington DC,

485
00:26:33,366 --> 00:26:36,800
there is absolutely no way
that business is going to thrive

486
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,800
unless they move into other markets
that don’t require

487
00:26:40,233 --> 00:26:42,500
that political connection.

488
00:26:43,566 --> 00:26:44,233
And so they, at

489
00:26:44,233 --> 00:26:47,233
that point, had a choice to either
close the business

490
00:26:47,266 --> 00:26:51,200
or get in gear and figure out
what other markets you want to be in

491
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,933
because he was on a short ramp
for retirement.

492
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:58,800
And so it does;
it takes a substantial amount of time.

493
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,233
And you have to have more than one.

494
00:27:01,233 --> 00:27:05,200
And they have to be thinking
about their backfill to.

495
00:27:05,233 --> 00:27:08,233
When we’re thinking about,
you know, the emerging leaders, only

496
00:27:08,233 --> 00:27:12,700
a small percent of emerging leaders
will actually ever be a company President.

497
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:16,700
You lead from many different positions
and roles in an organization.

498
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:20,100
So part of the identification
of the emerging leaders

499
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:23,966
is to figure out their path
and what their future role looks like.

500
00:27:23,966 --> 00:27:28,533
And when that’s defined,
then you can start to understand, okay,

501
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,500
this is how we’re going to backfill
that position as this person advances.

502
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,633
This is the training that’s
going to be required, year

503
00:27:35,633 --> 00:27:39,166
one, year two, year
three, to get this person ready.

504
00:27:39,566 --> 00:27:42,066
So they’re taking over this specific role.

505
00:27:42,066 --> 00:27:45,333
Here’s how the company can provide
additional support.

506
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:47,700
I mean, earlier,
the plus one was mentioned.

507
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:53,733
Just bring along that next-gen leader and
let them watch their predecessor at work

508
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:58,666
and they can learn that skill,
see it in use, ask questions afterwards.

509
00:27:58,666 --> 00:28:03,733
And so when we have an intentional plan
in place, it takes time.

510
00:28:03,733 --> 00:28:04,733
It takes money.

511
00:28:04,733 --> 00:28:05,733
Absolutely.

512
00:28:05,733 --> 00:28:08,733
And companies aren’t
even thinking that way.

513
00:28:09,166 --> 00:28:11,600
And so that’s that big disconnect.

514
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,333
You know, thank goodness for that.

515
00:28:13,333 --> 00:28:17,100
Because, Stambaugh Ness,
we do the Interpersonal Communication

516
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:19,700
Skills Training and the Leadership
Training and the Seller-doer Business

517
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:23,400
Development Training of the Strategic
Planning and Financial Acumen Training,

518
00:28:23,466 --> 00:28:24,566
all these things.

519
00:28:24,566 --> 00:28:28,400
Thank you, AEC World,
for not being very thoughtful

520
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,633
and intentional
because that gives us work.

521
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,233
But the reality is that

522
00:28:34,233 --> 00:28:36,100
all of our firms
need to be thinking about this

523
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:40,100
because we are never, ever, ever
not in a state of transition

524
00:28:40,133 --> 00:28:41,100
at our companies.

525
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,866
And that doesn’t matter if you’re
a five-person firm or a 50,000-person.

526
00:28:44,966 --> 00:28:48,833
We are always in a state of transition,
so we have to make this more cultural.

527
00:28:50,833 --> 00:28:52,966
I like what you said there, Scott; you’re

528
00:28:52,966 --> 00:28:57,566
always in a state of transition
because I think that’s that is very true.

529
00:28:57,933 --> 00:29:00,933
And so you kind of talk
through a lot of the challenges facing

530
00:29:01,433 --> 00:29:05,866
that emerging leader development
and some of the ways, you know,

531
00:29:06,066 --> 00:29:11,000
you can hopefully strategize to overcome
some of those challenges.

532
00:29:11,333 --> 00:29:12,300
We did want to end.

533
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:16,600
We’re nearing sort of end of time here,
and we don’t want to run over. But

534
00:29:17,866 --> 00:29:19,566
if we were to ask you, we had

535
00:29:19,566 --> 00:29:23,700
one question prepared,
and that was taking;

536
00:29:23,866 --> 00:29:27,266
you both have had a ton of leadership
experience running teams,

537
00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:31,333
developing also in your consultant roles.

538
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:36,266
If you were to take all of that experience
and tell your younger self

539
00:29:36,266 --> 00:29:39,266
before you took on a leadership role,

540
00:29:40,066 --> 00:29:42,133
what you might do differently,

541
00:29:42,133 --> 00:29:45,133
knowing what you know now,
what would you tell yourself,

542
00:29:45,933 --> 00:29:48,933
your younger self?

543
00:29:49,466 --> 00:29:51,233
You want to take it first, Kate?

544
00:29:51,233 --> 00:29:51,833
 I’ll take it.

545
00:29:51,833 --> 00:29:54,600
So yeah,
I think about this as an engineer.

546
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,566
There’s a joke out there.

547
00:29:56,566 --> 00:29:59,900
I don’t think you’ve ever seen the cartoon
where an engineer is outgoing

548
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:03,033
if they’re looking at your shoes
and not their own shoes.

549
00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:08,666
I will say as an engineer, I was very shy,
very, you know, kind of more introverted

550
00:30:08,666 --> 00:30:12,166
and not sure about how to talk to people,
and very technical-minded.

551
00:30:12,266 --> 00:30:15,333
Luckily, I just had a psychology degree,
so that helps me a little bit

552
00:30:15,333 --> 00:30:18,133
to at least be aware
of how I need to work on that.

553
00:30:18,133 --> 00:30:21,166
But I was not really good at communication
skills.

554
00:30:21,166 --> 00:30:24,666
I was very uncomfortable
going to networking events.

555
00:30:24,666 --> 00:30:25,966
I was very uncomfortable

556
00:30:25,966 --> 00:30:29,266
when you put me in a place
where I had a small talk with somebody or

557
00:30:29,766 --> 00:30:33,700
part of a conversation or,
you know, just getting comfortable

558
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:36,733
with those human interactions,
I think, is super important.

559
00:30:36,733 --> 00:30:40,833
And if I was to do it all over,
and actually as I encourage people,

560
00:30:40,833 --> 00:30:45,300
when you get new people in, we start
the networking training right away.

561
00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:48,933
We don’t wait until you’re going out
to conferences and things like that.

562
00:30:49,233 --> 00:30:51,100
We want you to network internally.

563
00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:54,600
We want you to get used to speaking
to groups and participating

564
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,900
in groups and being okay
with having a voice, I guess.

565
00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:02,100
I wish I would have learned earlier
how to have a voice.

566
00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:06,500
Because when I became time for selling,
I was like, well, what do I do?

567
00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:07,566
What do I say?

568
00:31:07,566 --> 00:31:09,200
I literally have no idea.

569
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,433
I don’t know how this is done.

570
00:31:11,433 --> 00:31:15,300
And just to share a quick story,
I was doing some consulting

571
00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:18,400
with a firm in Kansas one time,
and this young gal asked me, she’s like,

572
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:19,666
“I don’t know how to sell.”

573
00:31:19,666 --> 00:31:22,033
And I felt her pain
because when I was supposed to sell,

574
00:31:22,033 --> 00:31:23,600
I was like, I don’t know either.

575
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,166
But I told her,
I said, “Do you ever just ask your client,

576
00:31:26,166 --> 00:31:29,700
Is there anything else coming?” “Is there
anything else come in that we can help

577
00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:34,400
you with?” It’s all about being of help,
and that’s selling.

578
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,100
And I was like, that’s selling.

579
00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:37,500
That’s my rainmaking, right?

580
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:39,666
That is selling.

581
00:31:39,666 --> 00:31:45,033
And I put her on her knees
because I gave her the sentence to use

582
00:31:45,533 --> 00:31:48,100
in that situation.

583
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:51,100
And somebody would have handed me
a sentence that I could

584
00:31:51,133 --> 00:31:53,833
then launch off of.

585
00:31:53,833 --> 00:31:55,666
I could have had
very different conversations.

586
00:31:55,666 --> 00:31:59,366
So that’s one of those little micro moves
that can have a very macro impact

587
00:31:59,533 --> 00:32:01,500
that you talk about.

588
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:05,433
Well, and Kate, you think of it, in design
construction, 80% of work

589
00:32:05,433 --> 00:32:07,533
typically comes
from those existing clients,

590
00:32:07,533 --> 00:32:10,166
and that one sentence
can make all the difference.

591
00:32:10,166 --> 00:32:14,433
So, Emily, to address your question,
you know, at first, when you said it,

592
00:32:14,433 --> 00:32:18,400
the first thing that popped into my head
was, shit happens.

593
00:32:18,566 --> 00:32:22,066
So when you’re
a leader, change is constant.

594
00:32:22,633 --> 00:32:25,700
People quit that you don’t expect to quit,
you don’t get the project

595
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:28,033
you think you’re going to get. You’ll
lose an important client.

596
00:32:28,033 --> 00:32:31,133
There’s a global pandemic,
and everybody works from home for a year.

597
00:32:31,133 --> 00:32:33,066
You know, there’s always something.

598
00:32:34,033 --> 00:32:37,033
So you
have to be agile, you have to be flexible.

599
00:32:37,333 --> 00:32:40,933
But then the second thing I thought was,
“Oh, don’t sweat the small stuff,”

600
00:32:41,566 --> 00:32:46,533
because there are always 150
small things happening at any given day,

601
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,066
and it’s going to be there for you,
and it’s never going to go away. It’s

602
00:32:49,066 --> 00:32:52,733
going to be 150 different things tomorrow,
150 different things the next day.

603
00:32:53,333 --> 00:32:56,800
So you can’t let that overwhelm
you or upset you.

604
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,100
That’s
just part of the job of being a leader.

605
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:00,966
But at the end of the day,
if I were to go back in time

606
00:33:00,966 --> 00:33:03,966
and I would tell myself one thing
about being a leader in the future,

607
00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:07,933
it would be learn about
and embrace servant leadership.

608
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,600
Because it’s not about you.

609
00:33:11,666 --> 00:33:15,200
It’s about your team; it’s
about your colleagues; it’s

610
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,200
about your direct reports, it’s
about your clients.

611
00:33:18,233 --> 00:33:21,233
And if you make it about you,
you are a narcissist.

612
00:33:21,333 --> 00:33:24,733
If you make it about others and
how you can help others and bring along

613
00:33:24,733 --> 00:33:28,033
others and be intentional with others,
then you’re being a servant leader.

614
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:31,533
And that’s the kind of leader
that people want to be around.

615
00:33:31,533 --> 00:33:34,533
That’s the kind of person that people
want to work for.

616
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,333
And so,
you know, most people who have emerged

617
00:33:38,333 --> 00:33:41,866
into leadership roles at one point
or another had a little bit of that.

618
00:33:42,266 --> 00:33:45,400
Yeah, look where I am now, and lose that.

619
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,866
That doesn’t help anybody,
be a servant leader, would be my advice.

620
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:51,300
Just to

621
00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:53,833
follow up on that
I believe in that wholeheartedly as well.

622
00:33:53,833 --> 00:33:56,833
Some people kind of balk
at that word servant leader.

623
00:33:57,166 --> 00:34:01,566
And Gallup is actually moving
from boss to coach, right?

624
00:34:01,566 --> 00:34:03,800
So it’s really learning
how to be that good coach.

625
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,400
And that good coach is the one that does
care, that wants to

626
00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:10,933
that want your future progress,
that wants to take good care of you.

627
00:34:11,233 --> 00:34:13,066
It’s the same concept, right?

628
00:34:13,066 --> 00:34:16,166
But if that servant leader doesn’t sit
well with you, then

629
00:34:16,433 --> 00:34:19,200
maybe think about being that coach,
even for your clients.

630
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,233
To be honest, as a trusted advisor,
I’m coaching them.

631
00:34:22,566 --> 00:34:26,266
This is a, you know, a lot of times
my clients are not when I was

632
00:34:26,266 --> 00:34:31,166
in engineering, my clients are the COOs,
and they’re running a business.

633
00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:35,100
I'm trying to help them
get this project done right and help them

634
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:38,966
interact with their constructors
and the people inside their organization.

635
00:34:38,966 --> 00:34:40,566
I'm still coaching

636
00:34:40,566 --> 00:34:43,566
if you think about it, but you're here to
be of service, you're here to be of help.

637
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,766
So that to me is we're here to help
give you a tool

638
00:34:46,766 --> 00:34:49,766
in the toolbox that hopefully helps
you have a successful project.

639
00:34:50,233 --> 00:34:53,100
A great piece of advice
I learned more than a decade ago,

640
00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:56,200
and I wish I remember who told it to me
because I quote it all the time.

641
00:34:57,300 --> 00:34:58,633
But it was simple.

642
00:34:58,633 --> 00:35:02,666
“If you can’t add value to a conversation,
don’t have the conversation.”

643
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:05,700
And that just totally changes
your mindset on everything.

644
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:09,666
You know,
even if it’s, “Hey, you made a mistake,”

645
00:35:09,666 --> 00:35:12,733
that’s the negative, the positive.

646
00:35:12,733 --> 00:35:15,466
“But here’s
what we can learn from it.” And oh, here’s

647
00:35:15,466 --> 00:35:18,600
“I made the exact same mistake
when I was at the same level in my career.

648
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,533
And you know, so did Kate.”

649
00:35:20,533 --> 00:35:24,000
So you add value to every conversation
you have.

650
00:35:24,066 --> 00:35:26,866
Great.

651
00:35:26,866 --> 00:35:31,400
Well, this has been such a great
conversation about emerging leaders today.

652
00:35:31,466 --> 00:35:34,466
Appreciate you both being here

653
00:35:35,666 --> 00:35:36,866
again.

654
00:35:36,866 --> 00:35:39,233
Thank you so much.