The Ultimate College Planning Playbook: Admissions & Financial Aid Secrets with Peter Ratzan

Rob Danzman interviewed college admissions expert and consultant Peter Ratzan to discuss the college admissions process, pitfalls, and opportunities. 

Peter is the President and Founder of Your College Concierge, a boutique college planning firm established in 2007 that provides step-by-step guidance on college selection, applications, and financial aid strategies. Frustrated by the massive student loan debt he and his wife, Jill, accrued after graduate school, Peter merged his deep passion for education with his expertise in corporate finance to create a science-based approach to college affordability.

Before revolutionizing college planning, Peter spent 12 years in corporate America, including nine years at Motorola.However, his roots have always been in education; he began his career as a high school social studies teacher and basketball coach at his alma mater, the Ransom Everglades School in Miami. Peter holds a Bachelor of Arts from Tufts University and earned both a Master of Business Administration (MBA) and a Master of Arts in International Affairs from The George Washington University.

Key Credentials & Achievements:

• Massive Impact: Guided over 13,000 students and families through the stressful college admissions process since 2007.
• Financial Results: His clients consistently earn an average of $33,000 per year in institutional scholarships and grants, resulting in hundreds of millions in claimed financial aid.
• Community Leadership: Recognized as the 2020 Mentor of the Year by Take Stock in Children, a mentoring program for at-risk youth where he serves on the Corporate Council.
• Elite Placements: Has successfully guided students into every Ivy League university, US military academies, and top-tier public and private institutions across the globe.

The New Book: The Ultimate College Planning Playbook Alongside his wife and business partner, Jill Ratzan, Peter recently released The Ultimate College Planning Playbook: A Practical Guide to Making Better College Decisions — One Play at a Time. Distilling 20 years of expertise, the book serves as a practical roadmap for families, answering the crucial question: "How do we make college worth it?". It pulls back the curtain on how colleges actually make admissions decisions, why the sticker price is rarely the final price, and how timing can make a massive difference in financial aid.

https://yourcollegeconcierge.com/

The Ultimate College Planning Playbook - https://go.yourcollegeconcierge.com/collegeplanningplaybook?_gl=1*1ct9ry4*_ga*MTYxMDcxNzE3OS4xNzE1NjM0NTk3*_ga_G68585PC78*czE3ODgyNzQ5MjMkbzIyMSRnMSR0MTc4ODI3NTk0OSRqNjAkbDAkaDA.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/motivatecounseling
https://robdanzman.com/

Transcript

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Rob Danzman: I've got today Peter Ratzan, college admissions expert, professional, who’s going to help educate us on, how to get from high school to college, and the process in between. Peter, thanks so much for joining me today.

Peter Ratzan: It's a pleasure, Rob. I'm looking forward to chatting with you.

Rob Danzman: Peter, I want to start at the beginning, and I'd love, kind of, your origin story. I like, I like, understanding, like, where people come from, and maybe how that informs, like, where they are and where they're going. So, maybe you could give a quick background, as to, like. Kind of how you got into this, where you went to school, like, your process and everything like that.

Peter Ratzan: Sure, so I grew up in South Florida, in Miami, and went to, you know, high school here, went away to college. After college, came back and taught at my alma mater at my high school in Miami, at Ransom Everglades School, and I was a history teacher, and that's what, you know, when I graduated college in the early 90s. jobs were difficult to come by, and you know, I decided when I was in school that, you know, I had a passion for history, a passion for teaching, and so I wanted to do that. So, I got into education, and I taught at my alma mater for three, two, two to three years. two full years, and it was a great experience, and had an opportunity working with young children. I was able to relate to them. I was… I was very young at the time, but I enjoyed that experience, decided I wanted to go back, get, further my education, got my master's, and that got me into a different direction, where I also pursued an MBA, got into business, got into telecom. Worked in telecom for 12 years. That also got me back to South Florida. Met my wife when I was in college, that's an important fact here, too. And, you know, we've been together now for 32 years. And, you know, during our time together in D.C, we had taken on considerable debt in our master's programs, right? We were very fortunate that as undergrads, we did not have significant, any debt, really, coming out of college. But coming out of grad school, it was quite significant. Went to work for 12 years, worked in telecom, as I mentioned, and during that time. I had noticed that, you know, there were colleagues, families, people I was working with and among who we're making pretty good money, and I'm in conversations with my colleagues over lunch, whatever, and their children were older, they were older than I, and their children were older than mine, having the conversation around college, and how much it costs, and how exorbitant it is, and how difficult it is. you know, these were people who were my seniors, my superiors, who were making, you know, more money than I was, and they were struggling with this issue. And I was thinking to myself, well, you know, this is going to be me in 5 or 10 years, or, you know, so many years where my kids are coming of age. how am I going to deal with this? What's my future… what's my family's future going to be like here? And start to really go back to, you know, how do people pay for college? What's the… what's the mechanism around that? And, and recognizing that there are many middle-class families, upward-middle-class families, upwardly mobile families, families who are making considerable income, who are struggling with the cost. And in those days, this was back in the, you know, the knots, right? This is, like, 2006, 2007. The cost of attendance at a private university was around $56,000, $58,000, which was… is a crazy sum, right? So that's the total cost. That was tuition, fees, everything, room and board, all of it included. Today. that similar university is charging $98,000, $97… it's approaching and exceeding $100,000 at some of the more expensive universities. Now, that is the sticker price, so we'll come back to that, I'm sure, later in the conversation, but So I recognized that that was a challenge. I wasn't… if I was going to continue on this path, and if I wanted for my children the kind of education that I was able to get for myself, that something had to change. This wasn't going to work. And I found an opportunity to get back into education, to get back into College… well, to help families one-on-one. you know, the corporate world was becoming a drag, it was… I was doing a lot of traveling, it was, you know, that kind of experience. It was a great, and it was exciting, and I was seeing, you know, in telecom, I was experiencing new technologies, and I was exposed to a lot of cool things, but… but I recognized, I saw the writing on the wall, and, you know, I was in a world where, you know, the iPhone hadn't yet been launched, and once it did, it was going to affect things in a big way. I saw that. And it was time for me to go. So I started, Your College Concierge, and we… that was back in 2007, and we started as a firm that was focused on helping people pay for college. That was the niche, that was our initial focus, and I recognized at the time that, given my background in education, that this was an easy transition for me to also be able to support kids With the process of apply. Buying a school. With the process of applying to school and, helping them Write their essays, express themselves, and really connect with students to help them connect with the admissions office, and that's really the important thing. So, we jumped right in, and we were able to grow pretty quickly, both in helping families not only applying to college and helping students with the application exercise and that whole experience, but also, very importantly, helping parents figure out what's the best way to pay for school, what's the best way to secure what we now see are discounts. Or financial aid, anything that's helpful to reduce that, enormous expense. And, you know, that's pretty much, you know, how we got into this. That was 20 years ago, in 2007, so 19… we're in our 20th year now, in helping families with this.

Rob Danzman: I'm… We don't need to spend a lot of time on this, but I'm… I wonder how, or what sort of advantage, maybe even disadvantage, although I can't imagine one. having an MBA, business background, How does that differentiate you from other… admissions and college consultants, because, I mean, I know a lot of those people, and they don't come from… they don't have a business background, necessarily. normally they're coming from education. They're coming from the belly of the beast, and stepping off of campus into, you know, the living room. They're not coming from the boardroom like you did. And I wonder, like. what… this almost sounds like I'm setting you up for, like, an easy hit, but, like, I mean, I wonder, like, how that differentiates you, from some of the other advisors. Yeah, because it seems like there are advantages to kind of seeing the world through, kind of, a business lens. or at least having skills around, I mean, telecom is… it's an industry, but within that, there were… there were… there was business, mechanisms, you know? So, yeah, like, what… what advantages do you think you have, like, with that MBA doing this?

Peter Ratzan: I think that the lived experience of having 12 years in corporate America is something that has been very helpful for me in terms of, you know, helping kids understand what the professional life is like, what it's like to go out and find jobs in that type of world. I think that… well, now let me back up by saying that there are Thousands of really good college counselors out independent counselors around the country. I've met many of them at various events around the country and, you know, or these conferences and that sort of thing, and there are some super people with big hearts and great skills, and, you know, they're terrific. Most people who get into this space are, frankly, if I were to generalize, people who have gone through this process themselves with their own kids, maybe they're former educators. They take on a small sample of Clients, they maybe have you know, a small practice, and they're good at handling one-on-one cases, but they don't have any knowledge or understanding of the financial piece, right? They're very focused on the admissions side, helping kids write essays, helping kids tell stories. And that sort of thing. I think that coming from, you know, the MBA background, coming from the corporate background, and understanding, you know, how finance works, how being able to break down how college finance works, understanding the numbers, I think is very important. You know, I do come from a liberal arts background. And I will say that one of the, one of the, challenges, I think, with a liberal arts education, including where I went to school. at Tufts University, there is no requirement at certain… at these schools for any kind of business education. Now, there are some exceptions, of course, to that, but I'm of the opinion that every student should… if you want to go to college, and if you graduate college, you should have, at a minimum. financial accounting should be a minimum requirement, just like English 101 is a minimum requirement. I think that all students should graduate from a four-year degree to have at least some understanding, some vocabulary of business. And that's where you get that, right? With the P&L, with the balance sheet. They should… students should graduate with that, at least a minimal understanding, because you go out into the world, it doesn't matter what you do. If you're going to be self-employed, if you're going to be working for a big company, if you're going to work for a non-profit. You're gonna have to understand, at some point, the numbers and how what you're doing is going to impact the bottom line of that organization. And I think that that's very important. I think when I graduated from college. as a liberal arts, international relations major, I… I lacked that. And I think that going to business school. and really understanding all of that helped me, not only when I entered the corporate world, but I think also when I became, you know, my own boss, and trying to manage my own business, and then helping families and helping students understand, you know, how they go about managing their careers. I think when it comes to the kitchen table issues, you don't need an MBA for that, right? That's… those are things that any family you know, can certainly relate to and understand, certainly I can as well. But I think that the higher education that I had, you know, certainly the advanced degree, the MBA, and that sort of… I mean, you know, a lot of kids today are going to school as an undergrad getting a business degree, and I think that's sufficient. I don't know if the student who graduates with a business degree undergrad needs to go on and get the MBA to further their education. Maybe it's to further their earning power, and so forth, but not necessarily for that. I think that, in my case, when it comes to where I sit within the world of college admissions counselors, yes, I do think that having that is very helpful.

Rob Danzman: Families have similar, maybe even the same, like, kind of kitchen table issues, challenges. It seems like having that business knowledge background provides a different set of solutions to those problems, or a different way to, like, frame some of the solutions.

Peter Ratzan: For sure, I think so. I think that when it comes to applying to college. paying for a college degree, and then what comes on the back end when a student uses that college degree. I think when you're… you're… you're talking about return on investment. Alright, specifically, that's something that… that, you know, framing this in certain business terms, this is an investment. It is the biggest investment that parents make in their lives, other than perhaps when they purchase a home. Okay, and it even… it could rival that, right? But that's significant, and I think that by framing it in those terms and understanding, okay, you know, this is… this is the sticker price, right? You know, if you want to look at it like the way auto companies price their vehicles, right? There's a manufactured, you know, suggested retail price, the MSRP, and then there's what you pay. Now, in college world, it's similar in that sense. There is a sticker price, there is a cost of attendance, and then there's what families actually pay. And if you're looking at a situation today where the average discount at private colleges is 57%, Right? So there's going to be a discount off of that… off of that cost of attendance. And so… when you look at college costs, when you look at the whole investment in terms of a return on investment, then I think that that's a framework By which, you know, families, parents need to be looking at this. And many are. They're coming around to that, and they're also coming around to the idea that, certainly a lot of… I mean, the popular majors today. on university campuses, you know, what I'm seeing, kids, right? So kids are… they're going in with engineering, they're going in with business, they're going in with STEM and pre-med. We're seeing very, very few students who want to study sociology, you know, or political science, which is what I did, right? I mean, I studied, political science, I studied international relations, I was a history buff. I mean, that's my, you know, if you really want to get a conversation with me, start talking to me about, you know, we can have a conversation about that, but… but that's for another day. Though, that's, that's where my true passion, educational passion originated. That's… and so… But that's not what we see today, right? Those programs are withering, and so, you know, students are recognizing, they're going in understanding that they want… they want to utilize this degree, they want to utilize this education for, you know, either a greater purpose or for, you know, a greater outcome or an income. on the back end when they finish. So I think that, certainly families are looking at this, and from my point of view, yes, I'm able to frame it in those terms so that, you know, we're looking at this as an investment.

Rob Danzman: I… that… that's interesting, because… so, families and maybe students are thinking about the degree in terms of its earning potential, or ROI, In your book, which we haven't discussed yet, the Ultimate College Planning Playbook, we'll talk more about in just a second, one of the chapters, you talked about parents need to think about all four years, not just the first semester. And so… and I know in my own experience, like, I hear parents Only thinking about the first semester or the first academic year. And it seems like there's this, it's almost like this paradox that they're thinking about the ROI of the major, but they're not thinking about, like, the total all-in cost of, like, actually achieving that major. It seems like there is kind of a gap there.

Peter Ratzan: Well, I would say that, certainly, you have to look at all four years. I mean, that's the goal, right, is to finish. And the reason why that can be a challenge, and why you have to plan for that, and of course, you know, plans change, and circumstances change, which is exactly the point. The package that you receive the first year could change in subsequent years, and that's not because the school is doing a bait and switch. I remember hearing that when I first got into this. Oh, I heard the colleges will offer you this money, and then that's not the case. That's not what's happening. By and large. That's an extraordinary exception. What's really happening is family circumstances are changing. So, you know, the income can change. A family could inherit a significant sum of money, or they could come into favorable circumstances. Conversely. they could come into unfavorable circumstances, and that's… we don't wish that on anybody, but that could change the financial picture, the financial aid picture that students receive from schools. So, you know, if you know that you have a promotion coming, you have another income source that's coming, that you're expecting an inheritance or some type of injection of cash into your household. from whatever source, then that could affect your eligibility for financial aid. Furthermore, at some universities, if you have a second child. going to college. That could affect your financial aid picture, and I don't want to get into the weeds on financial aid rules and regulations and how the formula works. That's kind of a boring topic, but some colleges do consider a second child and how that impacts the family's finances. And so they will weigh that accordingly, or conversely, you have a child graduating. So let's see if you have an older child who's finishing college. And then in year two. you know, the child in question is going to be alone in college, right? Without a sibling, that could jack up the price, the cost that families are going to be paying. So these things have to be considered and built into the plan when were looking at, you know, the four-year cost.

Rob Danzman: You… I want to step back a little bit, and we'll go back in time. You… you've got kids.

Peter Ratzan: Yes. Okay. Yes, I do. Adult kids, yes, adult children.

Rob Danzman: Presumably made it through this process, so did, Yeah, talk about, like, how you all went through this process, since this is, this is what you do. And to end, not just the financial aid piece and, like, leading right up to it, but… I'm also interested, how did you all start talking about, oh, you're entering 9th grade or 10th grade, we've got a few years until grades really start mattering, maybe? I don't know. But… But, like, how did you all… what did those early conversations sound like? I mean, you're so much more aware… you and Jill are so much more aware of, like, what goes into this planning. How did you all start?

Peter Ratzan: Wow, so I gotta reflect on that one. I would say that, the conversation… my kids picked up a lot by osmosis, right? The conversation was going on around the house and between us, and so, you know, they were picking things up without… direct connect… direct conversations to them. And now, having said that, our kids are very different kids, different… different students, different interests, and so, you know, the messaging to each of them was not identical, was not the same, because they're different kids, and they had different interests, different, different pursuits. And so, you know, I think that one thing is important, and parents recognize this, most do, is that you need to… this is a customized process. You raise children individually. We tried our best not to compare. We rarely, if ever, did that in comparing our kids with each other, because there was no comparison. They were very different. At first, we had a boy and a girl, and we had, you know, they had extremely… one was an athlete, one was into theater, and there were different kids, right? So, with our, we, you know, and when it… grades start to matter for kids in middle school, and the courses that kids take in middle school actually does impact what they start doing in high school, and that was something that we recognized early on, and it wasn't like we could necessarily push or force one child into an academic program or an academic track that she wasn't ready for. So, you know, I think that, you know, to… One of our children, right, our older child, was, I guess I would say, relative to the other, you know, her math skill was not the same as our younger child. And so, you know, we didn't push her on that track, because that would have set her up for failure. And so, as a result. We made decisions to to give her an academic program and an academic opportunity that was appropriate for her. It turned out that our son, who was 3 years younger, 4 years younger, in grades in his grade level, he ended up going to the same school, but for different reasons, right? They were able to pursue very different opportunities. Again, my daughter was more so into theater, and that was her focus. My son was more more into debate and, and, you know, that… focus, and so, you know, they did different things, but one thing we were able to do for each of our children was help them find what they loved, what they wanted to pursue, and then to give them the outlet to pursue that. And that was very important. So, in addition to their academic roadmap, and finding the right classes, and being able to give them enough structure and enough you know, to push them, and enough rigor, right? Because that's very important, right? Kids need to challenge themselves and demonstrate to universities, to the admissions office, that they're doing their best to try to push themselves and give themselves the best academic program. Not only that, but also to give them the opportunities outside of school. And that was something that was important, and as our kids were able to identify what it is that they wanted, you know, we then were just, you know, opened the door for them to be able to pursue that to the fullest.

Rob Danzman: You weren't necessarily nudging them towards, like, high-income, high-salary fields. It was more identifying, like, their interests.

Peter Ratzan: Correct. In our case, that's correct. I think that, you know, that's not the case with all Every family is different, and every family raises their child differently. I think that clearly, you know, our children, we wanted for them to be able to stand on their own and make a living, and I think that, you know, I'm very fortunate right now, at this point, that now they're in their 20s, and they have done that, right? They've launched, and we've, we've, you know, a combination of hands-on and hands-off approach, right? So we were there for them when they needed us, and we were very directly involved, but at the same time, we were… we tried our best not to be, you know, the helicopter parents, and we wanted them to have, you know, to… if they failed on their own, that was okay. We were going to be there to pick up the pieces. for them, and, you know, they did have stumbles along the way, just like all children do, and we were able to help them with that. So, you know, I think that what was also important was, as a college counselor, to allow them to find their own way of expression when it came to not only choosing colleges, but also completing the application, and writing their essays, and doing all those things, right? I tried my best to let them exp… to not be involved in that process, to find others to help them with that process, right? We have a sort of a saying in our house, you know, save your relationship, get a lesson. Right? When it comes to, you know, the pursuits that we enjoy, whether it's tennis, golf, skiing, hitting a baseball, you know, those kinds of things. Like, I'm not equipped to do those things. I could do those things myself, but I'm not equipped to teach people how to do that. So, you know, get a lesson. Find an expert. to do those things, and so that was something that we've adopted for our own family, and frankly, I think that that's what I, you know, I tell that to other families. when I talk to parents, and they're thinking about, oh, you know, we have, you know, we could do this ourselves, or, you know, I, mom or dad, will say, you know, I have a writing background, I can help my kids with this. Well, you know, that could be a dangerous outcome, not so much dangerous, but a volatile. outcome, right? Where… where the… because there's a lot of emotion that gets involved in this, and so I think one of the things that we did was identify that… what our limitations were, and to find others to serve as experts, with our children.

Rob Danzman: Yeah, it's one thing to be a, enthusiastic supporter, professional. It's another thing to be a parent with those same skills, because there's attachment. To the outcome. It changes the process. So, okay, so now let's bridge over to clients. When parents come to you and they say. My, my kid here, she, she wants to be a dance major. And my husband and I do not want her to be a dance major. Can you please tell her that, like, you can't make any money doing that, and that's insane? How do you handle those… I'm sure those situations come up where there's a… there's a… there's a delta between what parents are thinking or what they want, or maybe what they're… What the family resources are capable of supporting, versus what the kiddo wants. How do you navigate. those situations.

Peter Ratzan: those are delicate, and they, you know, not every… not every one of those comes out with a rosy ending, but I will say that it does help to have a third-party objective observer be able to address that issue. I came across a term very recently, a certified stranger, right? Someone who is, right, someone who's out from the outside, who's recognized, who's a, you know, an expert of sorts, who's done this a million times before, who's not… emotionally attached, like mom and dad, who can… who can convey that message. I think that in a situation like that, there's an opportunity for both, in the sense that if a child is a dancer and wants to pursue that. you know, if, you know, mental health and emotional fulfillment and a purpose is very important, especially for any of us, right? That we don't outgrow that, right? It's important for children, it's important for adults, and if a child feels that that's her purpose, that's something that she wants to pursue. why can't it be both-and? Why can't she pursue dance and also open her mind up, right? Be open-minded and recognize that there are other pursuits, more financially viable pursuits? And maybe there's, by doing that, she can identify ways where through dance, she can make a difference. Through dance, she can identify those other lucrative areas, whatever that might be, to pursue both avenues. There's rarely is it just… you know, is it one or the other? Now, you know, I'm dealing with a situation now, it's a little bit different, but, you know, this is a boy who's A… he's a graduate student, right? So he's a piano player, he's an expert, he's just got into Juilliard, right? And he's gonna be starting a Juilliard, and he's gonna be taking on debt, and this is a graduate program, right? He's already gone to undergrad, and he's playing the piano, so he's… you know, that's what he does, that's what he pursues. And, you know, there's no question, the parents aren't questioning whether this is right or wrong, right? They want their son to be happy and to be able to pursue what he wants, but this… he will be taking on debt in order to get himself through graduate school, and, you know, he'll have to figure out his way when he's finished. In terms of instruction, in terms of, you know, finding opportunities in symphony, whatever it is, but that'll be a challenging road for him.

Rob Danzman: How often is there a… I mean, and I know that this is kind of a guess, but, percentage-wise, like, what's the split between when… the parents and the kiddo are kind of aligned, and they're seeing the same thing. And they're… basically, they're… they're seated in the same direction on the bus, versus, like. there's, like, a disagreement, whether it's, like, you know, an antagonistic or just a little bit of friction. Yeah, how often are you seeing alignment versus, like, a misalignment between parents and kiddo?

Peter Ratzan: I… you know, what I see and what's happening behind the scenes may be different things, but I think that for, you know, I… I often see alignment, I would say. I don't know what… what the percentages would be, but, you know, I also… that varies. That's an open-ended question, I think. You know, the… I think that there's… there's a set of parents who support what their kids want, right? They see what their kids want, and they… those are noble pursuits, they're lucrative pursuits, potentially, they're… their kids are bright, they see a talent. And they help their kids pursue that. And that's what, in many ways, that's what parenting is about. We direct, but we also allow. And so, you know, we want our kids to be able to reach their best, their fulfillment. So… there's those sets of families. There's also the kids who adopt a certain approach because they think that this is what mom or dad will want. Or because they don't… they want to avoid the argument, right? Let me say, I'll just, you know, pursue computer science because, you know, that's what… that's what my parents want me to do, or I'll pursue… I'll say that I want to do engineering because, you know, it's… I could find a job, that's what my parents have told me, and that… you know, now, you know, for those kids, they… they demonstrate the talent, and they… they go to events and competitions, and they do well in school, and they… pursue those things to put themselves on that path, and I hope that they enjoy it, I hope they find fulfillment, because, you know, when they turn 25, 26, after they've been in the workforce for a while, if they don't enjoy it, they're gonna hit a wall. And, you know, I tell students all the time, you know, you have to enjoy… you have to have at least some joy or interest in what it is that you're pursuing. Just because it's lucrative doesn't mean that it's sustainable. And so, you know, we're trying to figure out, you know, what you're going to be able to do. You know, careers change, and jobs change, and that sort of thing, but you still want to be able to do what you enjoy. So I think that there's that second group that I see as well, and then you have those where, you know, they're completely at odds. And those are rare. I think those are rare. It certainly does happen, but, you know, when… but those are situations that… those might be the toughest to navigate and the toughest to manage. But I think that what, you know, what… when people are coming to me, I'm not solving that problem for them, necessarily. That's not why they see… you know, you… I'm not the, the expert, necessarily, in… in managing the harmony in the home, I do find that often what I do is deliver that harmony, right? I mean, that's sort of what… and that's priceless, right? If, you know, having, as I mentioned, that certified stranger To come in and to provide that type of guidance so that mom or dad doesn't have to do it, so that mom or dad can get off the kid's back, stop knocking on the door and opening, you know, invading their space and asking them what they're doing, what they're up to, you know, allow College P to do those things, you know? Let somebody else penetrate that space and inquire about those questions. And if there are issues, then there's conversations between me and the parents. So I think that that… the tension there is… well, at least the way it's brought to me and to my attention is less so than perhaps the other two situations.

Rob Danzman: I think often, Parent… my experience is parents will… And maybe also, students. The… the seemingly competent adult that's in front of them is the one that's going to be, They're the one that's brought in to solve the problem, even if it's not within their professional purview. I see a lot of faculty members that are… assumed that they're able to do mental health counseling. And I, I can imagine, like, admissions, like, consultants, college admissions consultants, are, are used for, they have to wear many different hats, because they're brought into these messy family situations, even if there is alignment. They're still navigating a process that maybe they've never gone through before. And I… I wonder… so, switching gears just slightly, So… When you and your wife went through Your own application and admissions and getting into undergrad and stuff like that. The world was… one way. and now… I mean, it was analog, basically. I mean. I think, like, faxes were still kind of the, like, standard of, like.

Peter Ratzan: of prefax, we were prefax. I… I was… I'm in the 80s, so… We were using word processor machines, right? This is… I mean, there were computers, and you were encouraged in 1986, I graduated in 87, so in the fall of 86, when I was applying to college, you were encouraged to type your application. As opposed to writing it by hand. Right? And you had to physically… you had to physically pick up a booklet, a Common App Booklet. Alright, to, I believe it was a Common App booklet, it might have been school-specific. I mean, I applied to one college. I applied early decision, I applied to one college. If I didn't get in, my Christmas break would have been a disaster. Okay, so, I, was fortunate, and I was able to apply to one, get in, and… but I would have had to duplicate that process to other schools. by hand, you know, or to reprint my photocopy, my essay, my application. So, yeah, it was a very different exercise. And what was going on back then is, because it was analog. You… we applied to fewer schools, right? I mean, again, I'm an exception, one school. My peers were applying to 5 or 6. Right? That was a lot, right? If you applied a 5, 6, 8 college, that was a lot of schools to apply to. Today, it's 15, 16, 18. because you have websites like the Common App that, you know, you could apply to over a thousand colleges, or I shouldn't say that. You have a thousand colleges to choose from within the Common App to apply to, and with a click of a button, you can add some schools and pay a fee and apply. It's very easy to do so. And that has created a… what we see today, and the incredible competition to get into school today, is largely the result of application inflation. And the volume of applications that are in the system, if there's… if these schools… I mean, come on, UCLA is receiving 150,000 applications, and they're admitting some 11,000 students. Right? Now, you know, they have so much capacity, so much dorm space, so much classroom space to admit students, and that's an exception, right? With that, they're probably the most popular school in the country in terms of the volume of applications that they receive. But, you know, these numbers, Northeastern University is another good example of a school that, you know, back in 1986 was… not a very competitive university, or I shouldn't say that, not a very selective university. It was relatively easy to get into that school back then, in terms of the percentages. The admit rate was probably over 60%. Today, it's under 10%, because they get 105,000 applications. They've done an incredible job like many colleges, of marketing their school, marketing their services, promoting application submission, giving kids free waivers and things like that, and just doing an incredible job marketing to get kids to want to apply. They've waived their, essay, you know, they don't have a supplement essay, they don't require the SAT, so they're opening the pool to students who might think, hey, you know, I can… maybe I'll just throw in an application here, it's easy, I don't have to write another essay. I can just click a button, you know, answer a few questions, some drop-downs, boom. I can apply to Northeastern, maybe I'll get in. And so, that's a great example of what's happening by many colleges across the country to attract applicants, to attract more volume in the system. And so you have that, and you have a similar number of admitted students, you create this downward pressure on the admissions rates. And so, you know, at these selective universities, they are… they appear to be a lot more selective, a lot harder to get into.

Rob Danzman: In addition to the, Kind of tech… technological changes, and… What other changes Have… have you observed or experienced… And also, like, with your son and daughter going through the process, you know, not that… I mean, it wasn't that long ago, but, like, Yeah, what are the biggest differences? Because I can imagine that, like, okay, technology has just removed a lot of the friction from the same process. But I wonder if the process is different in some way. Not just removing, you know, test requirements, but are there other things that are fundamentally different, or is it really the same thing, just at kind of hyperspeed?

Peter Ratzan: I think it's a little bit of both. I think there are some key subtle differences, and perhaps not so subtle. I think in, you know, in… one of the key differences… again, if we want to compare, you know, we can compare 40 years ago, or we can compare even just in the last 20 years, right? So, you know, I think just in the last… 20 years, you know, some of the… some key differences that we see. Well, first of all, the test-optional movement, right? There are more schools that are now test-optional, and I think that's… that's one key difference. I think another is that, the… and most recently. perhaps the biggest change has been the emergence of AI in this whole process, and students using AI to help themselves with the application, I think that's a big piece that's changed, and AI as a tool for families to be able to get information about colleges and where perhaps they should be applying, I think that's affected things quite a bit. I think that the other change has been And you could go… this has been steadily increasing as, you know, just the… the volume of Opportunities that are available to students, and then, you know, because of those many opportunities. The requirements that students feel that they need to, follow in order to differentiate themselves. And in order to distinguish themselves. If I hear the word passion project anymore, I think I'm gonna vomit, right? And I think admissions people hear that, and they're like, they want it as well. And, you know, so… but kids feel this need, and that may come from their parents, it may come from you know, other counselors out there who feel that, you know, students need to find a way to truly differentiate themselves. They need to save the world, they need to save their community, they need to feed a thousand homeless people, they need to, you know, do things like this. And I'm not going to deny a student a purpose, right? But we can't fabricate that. That has to come from within. So I think that there's… you know, when it comes to some of the key changes most recently, yes, I think that AI is… we're still seeing and still experiencing, you know, some of the changes that result from that. I think that the test-optional movement, and frankly, I think that the absence of affirmative action on admissions has changed things a bit. You know, we're starting to… see that come in. And I would say also just the image that a lot of families have. of higher education is another change, this trend that we've seen in the last. It's picked up very recently, but I would say in the last 5 years or so, 3 to 5 years, where families are growing frustrated with, you know, what's happening on some college campuses, and whether they want their kids to be a part of all of that. I think I'm seeing a little bit of that, I think I'm… and that combined with the exorbitant cost. Right? So, you know, all of these trends, I think that, there are… I think that higher education as a whole, its image and its place in society. is not what it was, say, 15 years ago, when people were like, oh, you know, college education is critical, and everybody must have one, and it's super important. I think that we're seeing some pushback there, especially because of the cost. And state universities, local in-state universities, are, you know, obviously they're becoming more in demand because of the cost, and I think that what we're also seeing is state… neighboring state universities. who are offering discounts to students. A lot more students now are going out of state. And they're going to state schools out of their home state. And, you know, from a return on investment, that may not make a whole lot of sense, because, you know, it's certainly more expensive, and it's just another state university. But those neighboring state universities, or maybe even they're farther away, are offering good, significant discounts to students from other states to make that ROI more worthwhile.

Rob Danzman: This past week, the University of Michigan just announced that they're going from Kind of regular grades. To pass-fail for. first-year stu- for first year. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Because the University of Michigan is not the first one to do that. I don't think that there was a lot of fanfare around, like. Harvard and some of the other colleges and universities that have had that in place for a few years. What are your thoughts just from, kind of the, the… Academic rigor perspective, but a career perspective as well, but also, and this is a big question. And maybe it's too early to ask what parents and students think about this, but, yeah, what are your thoughts from those different angles, in terms… Right. Because it's a very small amount of time that I don't think a lot of media outlets picked up on this. It's only first semester freshman year, but the implications seem like it could be pretty large. to, you know, in a good way or a bad way. So, yeah, what are your thoughts on that change?

Peter Ratzan: So, okay, good question. My knee-jerk reaction to that is, let me just start by saying I'm a little more old school. And I'm thinking, oh, you know, this is the softening of, you know, the coddled American generation, right? And so, this is just another example of that. I think that, evaluation is important. I… I, And by doing this, you're avoiding that. But if it's… if it is temporary, and I want to say temporary, if it is only one semester, and the purpose is to help kids adjust. and to get them, you know, more attuned to college life, and then it could have a good purpose. I don't know that… I wonder what the actual implications will be, or the, you know, the actual results of this. Will kids… will they take their first semester classes seriously if they're not being graded on it, right? Are they just gonna, you know, how are they gonna approach that from a, you know, if you're not being evaluated, you know, you're not being pushed, you're not being measured. you know, then you might not put forth the effort. Now, you know, Michigan's a highly selective school. They have competitive candidates coming in, and these are bright kids, so, you know, you would hope that, you know, the kinds of students who are entering that school are not going to fall into that. But if this was something that was adopted, you know, en masse, I think that would be a bit of a problem. I think, you know, as you extend that to… how schools evaluate students for admission, right? And this… and the whole test optional, for example, or even what they've done in California with tests blind by just ignoring the SAT altogether. You know, I… I come from… I would say, for the… up until maybe 10 years ago or so, maybe 5 years ago. My thinking was, you know, the SAT, and again, this was sort of ingrained into me, you know, the SAT's a bad test, it's a bias test, it's not a good test, I think test-optional's great, I think they should look at other things, but now you start to see that, there's a lot of great inflation. in high schools. So if you don't have the SAT, and you don't have any kind of standardized measure, then you're looking at the transcript. Well, if schools are inflating those transcripts, then how are we really measuring the capability of students who are entering universities? And then we start to see faculty at the University of California system who are begging their administrators and their governors or chancellors, whatever you call them, boards of governors, to reinstate the SAT, because students are coming in without sufficient math capability. And these are kids who are our future engineers, these are our future bridge builders, these are our future, you know, airport designers. If this stuff isn't gonna work. where are we going to be in 20, 30 years? So, you know, we want our engineers, we want the people who are designing this stuff to have a certain minimal math capability, and these kids are now being forced to take remedial math so that they can place into, you know, more advanced level courses. So I think that's a problem. I think that We're, we're, We're losing… we're afraid to measure and evaluate students on, you know, on a certain standard, and we need to come back to that. there are… there has to be certain standards when it comes to education, including higher education, and I think that's important. So, but in the case of Michigan, you know, again, if it's, if it… if the whole purpose is to… and I think what I read, too, was that, you know, this was designed to, assist in mental health, and managing the transition for a lot of these kids to college. you know, if, I think that kids are… dealing with a lot of other issues when it comes to the transition to college than their grades, and I don't know that this is necessarily the best approach. I think it's probably misguided.

Rob Danzman: I agree in so many ways, and I also think about the… The other side of it. the kids that have a Ferrari engine in a Fiat chassis, where they… Where they need, they need to, they need to be in, competitive environments, and it's actually healthier for them. Like, and a pass-fail environment to start off with, actually creates a different, set of mental health issues in those students, because they need to be, like. that competitiveness, and not in an unhealthy way, but I see a lot of students, like, in my work, where The grades are… it is the one thing that is an objective measure of… of… of whether it's good or not, their value in that moment. And so, as they're moving through that first semester, I can imagine some of the clients that I've worked with just saying, like, am I good or not? I don't know.

Peter Ratzan: You want to be able to, right, you want to have an understanding of that, you want to be able to know, and look. Failure, and when I say that, that I use that word, you know, dealing with adversity. is not a bad thing, right? It's a good thing. I mean, I tell students all the time that, you know, when they talk about where they want to go to school, and how far away they want to be from home, and what they're going to be dealing with, I say, listen, you know, when you get older and you deal with things, you know, you're gonna stub your toe. You're gonna have to deal with that. You're on your own. Right? If you break your foot, mom and dad are gonna be there to help you, right? They'll be there to pick… help you deal with that, right? But that's a bigger issue, but if you stub your toe, you're on your own, pal, right? You gotta deal with that adversity, and I think that, you know, we're so afraid to give our kids any kind of adversity. Right? And to force them to learn to live with that, and learn to deal with that. And that's where growth comes from. It's, you know, we're not gonna… you know, we're just delaying the inevitable. If we… if we don't grade our children, then, you know, eventually they're gonna be evaluated, and they're gonna… they're gonna face that… when they deal with that adversity later in life, they don't have the tools.

Rob Danzman: I think it's… I think it's slightly even… more pronounced than that, because I think about, the psychological credit card of it, where it's not just avoiding it and they pay the debt later on, but they pay the debt with interest. And so, as we get older, a teen subs their toe, and mom and dad swoop in and fix it. They stub a toe when they're 25, and they've never learned how to handle things. It's a way more expensive, from a psychological, perspective, type of issue and solution, so…

Peter Ratzan: Yeah, kids need to be able to, you know, the lifeline, right? Where you make the phone call when the first crisis, the first… it's not even a crisis, the first stumble occurs, and, you know, kids, the first reaction is to, you know, calm on. Right? Or call Dad, right? I mean, we have a different generation of students today, of kids today, right? You blow out a tire on the road. Right? The first call is to mom or dad. Right? Whereas, you know, it used to be, you'd call the service, figure out a way to fix it, or, you know, you jack your tire yourself, or you call AAA, or whoever it is, right? You do it, you manage it yourself, right? Today, the first call is to mom or dad, and what's mom or dad gonna do? They're gonna fix it, and they're gonna fix the problem. They're the ones who are gonna have to, you know, call AAA or whoever the service is to provide it. So, you know, that's the… and that's simplified, but that's the difference today, right? Kids aren't… they lack the skills, unfortunately, to figure these things out for themselves, and, you know, if you don't have your phone with you, you're useless. Right? And so the tools that are available on that device that give us, you know, the ability to get from… don't just get from A to B, but to solve the problems that we have, you know, without that, you know, we wouldn't be able to make our own decisions.

Rob Danzman: So, let's switch gears, and I want to start pulling in your brand new book that's coming out, and I would love to hear, You talked about, I mean, planning is in the… or playbook, and planning are in the title, and throughout the book. How do you all actually build out a plan? And I know that it's probably big and exhaustive and all that, but, like, I wonder if you could lay out, kind of, some… Well, the playbook, as it's in the title. the playbook for what does this look like? If parents were listening to this or watching this, and they're like, I've never thought about this as a strategy with all of these different steps along the way. I just thought, like, you fill out the FAFSA, and you start applying to schools, and… You accept or you don't accept. what does that playbook generally look like? Like, what are the general steps, do you think?

Peter Ratzan: Well, there's, you know, what we've done, too, with this is we've, developed certain, digital tools, data-driven tools, to help families with this very process. So we have a college planning roadmap That is the chat tool that gives students the… it's just like they're having a conversation with me, and the questions that are asked in that tool give them an opportunity to answer those questions, and then, you know, a playbook, an individual playbook, is built for them, depending on their grade, right? So we start with, you know, the grade of the student, and we like to start early in high school, right? We, you know, if you're… Coming at us, you know, in the very beginning of senior year, you know, the planning that we're doing is very much emergency planning. It's much, you know, more compressed. It's really more… it's less planning and more execution on… on the steps that are required to get in. ideally, you're developing this plan, this playbook, when your child is in 9th or 10th grade. And, you know, in 10th grade, you have… at least some track record of high school activity, right? So you have an idea of how… what you're like as a student in high school. You might have a track maybe you're on the advanced track, and you're going to be taking the most comp… most of the advanced level courses in your high school, or maybe not. Maybe you have a mixture of those things. So that goes into the start. Of the planning, and in terms of, you know, where you're going to end up at the end of high school, so that we could look at the types of colleges that are going to be appropriate for you. So, you know, you also want to, clearly identify… I mean, this isn't… that necessarily… ground-shaking new information, but the idea of understanding what it is that you want to pursue, what you want to study, what you enjoy, right? What are the things that you like and enjoy when you're in school? And, you know, trying to develop a love for learning is important. Right? So that's… that's something that is… is critical as well. And then, you know, finding those pursuits outside of the classroom are important, right? That's another key piece to this. And, helping students develop Not just those skills and talents, but also the ability to lead. And to develop some sort of position of… it doesn't have to be authority, but a position of activity where you're taking ownership, you're taking a leadership role. You don't even have to have a title, but if you do, that's great, to take the reins and to direct and drive a certain agenda. Right? The ability to do that as a youngster, as a high school student. I think that if you can combine those things. You know, then… then you can start to… to develop a plan that will… Result in, building a list of colleges. Right? So, creating a certain set of schools that are appropriate for your credentials, for your social desires. what it is that you're looking for, and then for the family's budget. And that last piece is also important to adopt and to start pursuing in 9th or 10th grade. Because the way the rules work, by the time you get through 11th grade. You get through the second half… the first… if you get… once you get through the first half of 11th grade. You know, your income is… half of the financial aid formula has already been completed, so you lose some flexibility when it comes to trying to identify opportunities to maximize financial aid or any kind of a discount. For, if that's something that you're looking for. So, you know, we like to work with families in 10th grade is ideal, right? But, and… Yeah, I would say that the first half of 10th grade… sorry, second half of 10th grade, first half of 11th grade, that year, which is 2 years before graduation, is really the ideal sweet spot time to begin building that plan.

Rob Danzman: Gotcha. And all of that's outlined in your book, in terms of, like, what the steps are, but then also that tool that you described, that, that provides, like.

Peter Ratzan: companies that accompanies the book, right? So there's, you know, you do the… it's a toolkit, so you have… that's one of the tools that accompanies the book, and that's… really, it's like… it's like kind of… it's like having a conversation with me, right? These are the questions that I would be asking. And step-by-step, and so we go through that, and it's interactive, and students and parents can provide as much in-depth information as they like to get an action plan, right? So we're looking… we break down each step, whether it comes to, you know, academics and pursuing a rigorous academic curriculum, whether it comes to SAT planning and prep, and when you should start to do that. And it's not the same for every kid, or the ACT. When it comes to pursuing extracurricular programs and, you know, depending on what you want to pursue… what you're doing, we'll recommend Different types of… opportunities. If you're thinking you want to go into healthcare, then we'll recommend different types of healthcare programs and opportunities that you should be pursuing. If you're interested in engineering and mechanical and electrical, then, you know, there might be some robotics programs and things that you could do. If you're, you know, whatever it is that you're about. You know, there's different things that you should be working on outside the classroom.

Rob Danzman: How about, so a family has walked through the process, they've… They've gone through the planning playbook, they've gone through the algorithmic help, as well as the actual human help. And they get, they get some offers. Spring… I guess, typically, spring semester of…

Peter Ratzan: Yeah, that'd be the latest, yeah.

Rob Danzman: I wonder, so first of all, has that changed when colleges are announcing… Yes. Junior year, so they go through fall semester, they get all their app… historically, they get all their applications in by January 1st, and then you get all the letters in, freaking out, running home from the mill. But all that's changed. But that's changed.

Peter Ratzan: All that's changed. All that's changed. Nothing is done by mail anymore, everything's digital at start date. Of course. But yeah, but the big… it's the acceleration of the deadlines. And so, to another caveat to what you just described, the exception would have been early decision. So you would apply early decision by November 1st, and you would hear by Christmas. Okay, those were the… that was it, right? Now, more and more colleges have early action. Alright, so early action is a non-binding deadline in November, so… And this is so… we see this very prevalent among state universities, not just in-state, but all state universities, right? So, the deadlines, the early actions, and if you really want to get in, and if you want to have opportunities. for scholarship, you know, additional opportunities for scholarship, you know, it's best to apply early action. So, November 1st is the new deadline. November 1st is the, for me and for people like me, it's the equivalent of April 15th for accountants. Like, that's the deadline. That's what people are looking towards. So we're pushing and pushing students to help them complete their stuff. by November 1st. And even some colleges are now pushing it two weeks earlier to October 15th. There's a good handful of schools University of Texas, University of North Carolina, at Chapel Hill, are now, Florida State University. More schools are now offering or requiring October 15th as its early deadline. So, it compresses the time period when students need to be working on this stuff. Right? So school starts, depending on where you live, I mean, where I live, school starts in the middle of August. Right? Some schools, some states, it's earlier. Some states, it starts in September. If school starts September, right after Labor Day, right, and you have to get your applications done by October 15th. Right? You have very little time to work with your school counselor, right, and to get, say, recommendations and a lot of these things. So, you know, you gotta start working on this much earlier in the summer before senior year, maybe even in the spring of junior year. starting in May, and that's when we typically get started with students, is in May of 11th grade. And we accelerate… we put the pressure on. I like to say to kids, I'm going to apply the pressure. In May, June, July. Or June, July, August. So you're not under pressure, you know, September, October, November, when you're going to be dealing with senior year, rigorous classes. you know, activities, homecoming, you know, all those things that you want to be able to do and enjoy, you know, or not so much enjoy, senior year, but you have to prioritize SAT, if you're taking it for the last time, right? We want to work on your application, your essay, your expression during those summer months. Prior to. So, that's a key trend that we overlooked before, is this… and why are schools doing this, okay? They're doing this because they're trying to capture… they're trying to… they're trying to manage their yield, and they're trying to admit more students early in the cycle so that they can market to those kids, convince those kids to enroll, offer them additional scholarship, rather than wait until later on. And so by accelerating their deadlines, it gives them a better opportunity to fill their classes. And to meet their revenue targets.

Rob Danzman: It creates more… actually, it makes me think about, on the business side of things. a company that has an IPO, that has a subscription model, that's predictable revenue, rather than random stuff being sold through Amazon, which you can track trends over time, but it's not as predictable. And so, it's a way for universities and colleges to increase predictability. Absolutely. And also, I have a little bit of… insider knowledge on this, because my wife is a faculty member at a university. And one of the biggest problems that she faces, depending on the type of class that it is, is they will… they won't know up until literally the day before how many students are enrolled in a class. And if there aren't enough students, there are these thresholds, they'll cancel the class, and the faculty will… have all of their stuff planned out in term… not just their… their course material, but what room they're going to be teaching in, which seems like not a big deal. Universities are actually, like. They do not have enough space for all the classes. And so it's a big game of Tetris. And so, this is making sense to me, that, like, offering all of this earlier, it's… it doesn't solve these problems, but it makes it so much easier, because there's so much more predictability.

Peter Ratzan: Correct. That's right. That's it.

Rob Danzman: I'm so glad… I'm so glad you… you talked about that. That… that seems like a really… that's like… That's a big hu- like… that's one of those pieces that I think should be highlighted in terms of, like, the importance of, like, what you do. And not that I'm shitting on you, oh, this is how you should run your business or anything, but let's. A parent doesn't even know to ask about that.

Peter Ratzan: Sure. They don't even need… What they don't know… what they don't always know, and this gets back to the planning, right, is what is my deadline? Like, when does this stuff all have to happen? Right. Right? When do I have to get everything in? And, you know, November 1st is an early deadline, but now we're seeing it's even earlier than that, and… So those are the kinds of… and the other thing, too, is when you submit your application, you're not done. Right? That's just when you hit the button on the application. Now you have to follow up and produce a transcript, or a self-reported transcript. You have to send your SAT scores, or self-report your SAT scores. A lot of kids think they're done when they hit the application. They're done, they're submitted it, and that's not the case. And so, you know, there's some additional follow-up. It's the details, right? Just like anything, the devil is in the details, and so you have to make sure That, those little I's are dotted, T's are crossed, everything gets completed. If not, your application's not getting reviewed, and then it stinks because, you know, you get towards the… you expect a review, you expect an answer, and the school defers you because they don't have a complete application, and that's frustrating. Right? That does happen on occasion, and that can be very, very challenging. So, and disappointing for the family, and for the student. So, you know, so that as part of the planning, I think that's something… that's how we got back on that, is to really understand what the deadlines are, and that is a… that is a big change that's happening in higher ed.

Rob Danzman: Yeah, I'm glad we talked about it. I could also imagine that it… that affects There's a ripple effect. that affects the summer before senior year in a different way. Sure. Because then I could… Right, right. And historically, families go on vacation, you know, for, like, a week or two weeks or something. And so it makes your job harder, because you're running after them, they're in… Cabo, or Miami.

Peter Ratzan: Correct. I would… what we try to do is… while it makes it harder, it also makes it easier, because the kids are off of school, and there is more general overall time. Yes, they might be, you know, working as a camp counselor, and they're busy, or they might be, you know, involved in other activities and programs and internships, or whatever they're doing, right? But, but they are off of school. And it makes it easier in the sense that We're dealing with it at a time where, mentally, they're not feeling the same kind of pressure. Right. I'm the one giving them the pressure. Right. But it's not… but the deadline is not immediate, so I'm giving them, you know, I'll put self-imposed deadlines and say, look, we want to get this done by this day, right? So that you can then free up your time to work on some other things. And I think that's appreciated.

Rob Danzman: Okay, I have, taken so much of your time, and you've been so generous with it this morning. I'm interested, and I had sent you over a few questions, and… I want to modify the questions based off of our conversation this morning. I wonder if you could speak to, Within the book, and this is gonna be, kind of, first question, then there's another set real quickly. You… I love the… there's one chapter where you list out, like, what… what I hope your child learns from, kind of, this experience. And I wonder, like, if you could reference that. And it's a little bit different, than what we were just talking about in terms of, like, these deadlines and, you know, this very kind of strategic way of looking at things. it's a softer version of it. That's how I interpret it. It's a… and yet, at the same time, I was reading through that, and I was like. That seems really important. Like you said, certified stranger? a certified stranger saying, here's what I hope your child learns from this. And I wonder if you could… if you could kind of expand on that, or explain, like, that… that section from your book. And I… I hate to put you on the spot like this, but… Yeah. But, yeah, if you wouldn't mind, like, speaking to that.

Peter Ratzan: Well, I think what you're referring to is this idea that, you know, you're… it's a question of how you define success, right? And so, you know, where you end up in college. is not… is not the definition of success. You, it's what you do with your time while you're there, and how you structure your… your goals, and how you go out and pursue those things. I think that's a part of it. You know, I think also that, college actually isn't for everybody, right? And so what we believe is… what I believe… I mean, I want every child who wants to go to college to be able to get to college. Full stop. But if you don't want to go to college, I also believe that high school is not enough. And when you graduate high school, it's important that whatever you do, that you continue to invest in yourself, to invest in your abilities, your brain. your pursuits, whether that means… whether it means going to college, great. Whether it means going to a community college to start off, to then, ultimately, that's fine too. Whether it means going to vocational school, getting a certification, getting a licensure, you know, anything that you can do to invest in yourself, whether it's, again, vocational education, it doesn't matter, as long as you are Furthering your abilities to improve yourself, to improve the world around you, to make the world better, right? That's the purpose of an education, right? Is to do… to acquire the skills to improve your life, and to improve the lives of those around you. And so, you know, if you can do those things, you know, and how you measure that, you know, is… it's not a, you know, the finish line. Is different for everybody. Right? And so, you know, the… I think that's important for people to understand, and you know, I also think that, you know, again, to get back to the first point, the name of the school that you attend, you're not… that doesn't measure your success. I think that ultimately, as you move on and further in life, you know, you're going to be measured by how you take advantage of the resources that you have. You go to a top-flight, you know, elite Ivy League university and do nothing while you're on campus to You know, then, you know, as opposed to a student who goes to a you know, a Tier 2 school, let's say, or a Tier 3 school, but is involved and identifies ways for them to pursue a career path, and takes advantage of the resources on campus, and engages in competitive activities that will give them, you know, the measures, right, to evaluate themselves vis-a-vis other students. You know, and to be able to identify research opportunities, internship opportunities, co-op opportunities. Those are the kinds of things that really translate, ultimately, to You know, what that student is able to do, the success, what that student's able to do and achieve post-graduation.

Rob Danzman: It sounds like what you're saying is, it… it's, it's… don't focus so much on prestige, focus on substance.

Peter Ratzan: I would say so. And, you know, I would say, you know, Jeffrey Salingo, who's a well-known author in the world of higher ed, he would agree, right? That, you know, that there's… it's not just about, you know, where you go to school, but what you do while you're there, and it's not just about prestige, it's about fit, and finding the right program for you, for yourself as a student. You know, and that's not just… you know, the… I cringe. Well, I used to cringe, now I just sort of chuckle when parents come in and they talk about rankings, and they want, you know, the top 50 schools, the top 20 schools. The rankings don't… I don't know the rankings. Don't ask me, you know, what school is ranked higher than another, you know? The only rankings that matter to me are the college football rankings, and those don't even matter until you get to the end of the season. So, you know, it's really… the rankings are meaningless. It's really about fit and style and what's appropriate for each individual student.

Rob Danzman: Gotcha. I… I just thought it was a nice section in the book, because it's… it's not about this, kind of, this… scientific, evidence-based strategy, it's really, like, how to build a good human being. And I like that you put in there, like, learn how to write an email. Which seems so silly, but, like, I think you and I can… I think we can commiserate, maybe, how many students, like, are actually not able to write coherent sentences or express their thoughts and feelings, in a meaningful way, because they've relied on technology for so much.

Peter Ratzan: I think that's only going to get worse, unfortunately, with the tools that we have now at our disposal. But yes, that is just simple communication skills. I think those are… those are lacking, and they're deteriorating, unfortunately, and that's, you know, and that's not COVID. it's not, you know, we can't blame COVID for that, we can't, you know, we can't… it's just… I think it is the emergence of the technology that we have at our… in our hands that is… that is limiting us in those… in that sense, and I… I do think that those soft skills are, are going to, unfortunately, that will impact students going forward. I do find, also, on that same idea, that the… the students who are… who often succeed the most at this, and I come across this a lot, is… are the kids who read. Kids aren't reading as much. Right? They're playing with technology, they're using their phones, they're flipping through TikTok, they're getting their information in snippets, they're not reading. They're not reading books. I don't care what books, whether it's, you know, fiction, nonfiction, biographies, historical, fantasy, it doesn't matter. Right? Kids are not doing that as much. And if they do, and they're complaining they don't have enough time. You know, but then I asked them, you know, how many hours are you spending on social media, on TikTok? And that's hours and hours a day. So, I don't want to hear about you, you don't have enough time. Right? There's time. It's just a matter of how that's being, you know, allocated.

Rob Danzman: I would love to hear your recommendations, and again, I'm kind of throwing this right in front of you now. Recommend… and you're not… you're probably not even gonna like this. I would love to hear your recommendations for universities. I'd like to hear your recommendations for parents, and then I'd like to hear your recommendations for students. And I know that that's a big ask, but, like. Like, maybe, like, the top 3 things, like, oh yeah, it would be great if universities, like, started doing this, and or if they got rid of this, or they did. Yeah, and for parents and students, the recommendations, I think, are maybe more actionable, like, please make sure to, like, start or, you know, like, start earlier, like, don't wait… Right. Things like that.

Peter Ratzan: Okay, one recommendation, we just talked about it, right? One recommendation, kids should be reading. They should be reading in middle school, they should be reading in high school. Kids stop reading books after elementary school. But not all kids, but the kids who are continuing to advance and succeed and outperform are the ones who are reading. Make that a commitment. Always have a book you're reading. I would say that's… Number one, I think for universities, you require financial accounting, at least some financial accounting as a graduation requirement. We require English. We require, you know, there might be other core requirements. Even schools that don't have core requirements should encourage or require, you know, a basic, just some basic financial accounting, as one. And for, all families. I would say, get an earlier start on this process. Don't wait until the summer before 12th grade to perk up and say, okay, you know, we need to deal with this. Now, there are always going to be those last-minute people. I mean, that's just human nature, right? But, you know, it's like the, you know, the cardiologist can tell the patient that, you know, you need to adopt a strong diet, and you need to exercise. And do those things, you know, and patient's not going to listen until there is an issue. Right? And now, the patient says that it's an emergency, or an urgent situation. So you're always going to have those kinds of people, but I think that, you know, getting an earlier start, really focusing in on this, after 9th grade, in the middle, you know, in 10th grade is really, you know, the right time to start focusing on this. For parents, when it comes to paying for college, you know, this is, in a way, a ticking time bomb, right? As we say, it's the tuition monster that's under the bed, that's been growing for years and years. And so, you know, you know it's there, your kids are turning 18 when they, you know, at that point, that's when they're going off to college. It's not like retirement. Where, you know, we don't know when we're going to be retiring, it's different for everybody, but we know that when our kids are 18, they're going to be going off to college, so this is a deadline with, it's a known deadline, and so, you know, start to address this. You could address this, you know, as soon as your kids are born, but, you know, really get a better handle on this and start focusing on this at a younger age, when your kids are much younger than the later years of high school. I think that…

Rob Danzman: It sounds like the college planning, especially the financial piece, it sounds like when's the best time to plant a tree? Yesterday. 529, you know. the financial like, yesterday. The mechanics of stuff, 9th, 10th grade, is where we need to be stepping in, in terms of, like, kind of that playbook that, that you all have outlined.

Peter Ratzan: So, that's exactly right. And then… and then on the execution of, at least for the student, right, it should be, you know, the spring, spring-summer of… before 12th grade. Gotcha. Right, when they should start working on preparing that application. Don't wait until September. We'll start writing essays.

Rob Danzman: This is great. I appreciate your time so much. Is there anything else that we didn't go over, didn't cover, that you think is important?

Peter Ratzan: Probably. There probably is. We covered the gamut, I would say. You know, there's, You know, when it comes to outcomes, when, you know, the destination of where you end up in college is not the outcome. that's the beginning, that's the start of this. Right. So, you know, don't necessarily… again, to judge the success of this by, you know, where you get into school is probably misguided, but… but I know that a lot of families do look at it that way. I just would say that, you know, for students who are going about this. And to their parents, you know, the more you put into this of yourself, and the more thought, the more energy. The more expression, the more you're gonna get out of it. And I hope that when you're evaluating this process, you're evaluating yourself and looking at, you know, which schools to apply to, that you're choosing where you think you are going to thrive the most. Where you're going to grow and thrive, not necessarily the name on the diploma, but But where those opportunities are going to be available to you to grow and thrive. I think that's most important.

Rob Danzman: When does the Ultimate College Planning Playbook come out?

Peter Ratzan: It's weeks away, it'll be… it's available, right? So you… it's… it's published, you can access it at, thecollegeplanningplaybook.com. Your student families can go there, and they can download it, and start enjoying it.

Rob Danzman: Okay, great. I will make sure that that gets put in the show notes. And where can people find you if they have more questions, if they're interested in working with you? Where's the best place to find you, website-wise, socials, all that good stuff?

Peter Ratzan: Sure, we're at YourCollegeconcierge.com, we're on Instagram at YourCollege Concierge. We're also on Facebook, at Your College Concierge, so, those are probably the best places for us, that's where we land, that's where we are, it's where we're coming to people. So, yeah, visit us at YourCollegeConcierge.com.

Rob Danzman: Great. Peter, thanks so much for being with me this morning.

Peter Ratzan: Alright, Rob, thank you, it was a pleasure, I enjoyed it.