Beth Fredrickson - Executive Director of HarborPoint Ministries and Owner of JustWrite Communication

This month I'm joined by Beth Fredrickson, Executive Director of Harbor Point Ministries. Beth has been leading the organization for eight years.

The Non-Anxious leader: https://thenonanxiousleader.com/

Transcript

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Hello, friends. My name is Zach and welcome to the end of the danger podcast, where we have conversations to help us grow in our skills, enter into difficult conversations, kindness, empathy and curiosity so that we can be more effective in our jobs and have deeper and more meaningful relationships. Beth is the executive director of Harbor Point Ministries, which connects two Christian camps to each other and to the group of churches that owns and operates both camps. She's been serving as the executive director for eight years after being with the organization for 30, including serving on their board. Beth also has extensive experience in marketing communications and owns her own marketing consulting firm called Just Right Communications, which I'll link in the show notes. Without further ado, let's get into our conversation. Good morning, Beth. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm really glad you're here. Thank you, Zach. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Oh, of course. It's taken us a little bit, but we finally made it happen. Beth, I've changed up a little bit. You're actually the first person that I've had these new questions. I've changed my questions up a little bit, but I'd love to get into, just to learn a little bit about you, if you're willing, I've got these three questions to ask. Sure, go for it. First one, what's one event that affects how you enter the danger with other people? Yeah, that's a great question. And you did give it to me in advance. So I've had a little time to ponder and, um, Zach, I can't answer it directly. I can. I can't honestly come up with a single event. What I can say is that. Um, I became aware that I was functioning poorly prior to hard conversations, uh, going into meetings where I knew that it was going to be filled with tensions, uh, where there was undoubtedly going to be conflict. Um, I, even if I wasn't in the facilitator role, I had this awareness of, wow, this is challenging and hard. And I became aware of. Physiological reactions, I would get a knot in my stomach. I would develop a headache. My heart would be pounding and I, I just knew I couldn't keep going in that way. That's no way to live. It's no way to lead. Um, it's no way to. Achieve mission in my nonprofit. So, um, I, I just recognized that I, I had to find a better way to navigate and prepare for and within myself. Come to a place where I could go through the door into a hard conversation or a hard situation or a hard meeting and just feel better equipped. Yeah. So, so I started a journey for myself to move in that direction. I say with all humility, I have not arrived. I still feel great anxiety. Um, I am, uh, often, uh, still caught off guard, but I have some, um, skills now, or at least some practices and concepts that help me, um, do better in those situations and, and feel less fearful. And I can sort of measure that because I, my body. Uh, responds differently. Yeah. Now, if I've done a little bit of, uh, preparation or, or carry with me my new awarenesses into those situations. You've already, you already answered this question, I think a little bit, um, in kind of the physical symptoms, so to speak, that you were having, but, um, what, are you willing to share a struggle or a weakness that you have when it comes to entering the danger? Mm hmm. Yes, I'm willing. Um, so I would say there's quite a few. There's more than a single one. Um, Well, I'm a three on the Enneagram, and I don't know if that means anything to you or your listeners, but, uh, we threes are highly productive. We love to get things done and, um, and at the same time, I am aware. and believe in and uphold process. I don't just because I'm eager to get to the end result and, and check something off my list does not necessarily mean that I want to skip through the process that is needed to get there. To get there, especially in leadership, where it often means bringing other people along, um, you can't skip the process. I can't skip the process. So that is a constant tension for me. Um, allowing other people the space and time they need to understand the issue. Um, ask their questions, do their own research, have their own conversations with others. Come back to the table, uh, contribute to the ongoing discussion. And then, you know, finally make the decision or advance the project or start the initiative. Um, so that's one tension. I constantly feel it's a lot easier to tell people what to do than it is to give them the space to kind of come along with you. And so I want to be a healthy three. I don't want to be. Um, a resource list 3 and, um, fall into, um, those bad bad habits. Um, the other, I guess, weakness I would say is that. The way any of us is wired is something that, you know, maybe in a, in God's, Way of ordaining how we were put together is really hard to change. Yeah. Um, so some of the physiological symptoms that I experienced in a moment of tension. Uh, I, I still do what I, what I try to, and I, and I don't want to say that's a weakness per se. It's on me to figure out a way to manage myself. So that you might not know my heart is racing, um, because I think that doesn't contribute to the two of us arriving at a mutually helpful place in whatever it is we're trying to talk about or forward. Um, if I, if I present anxiety, then, uh, you're probably going to pick up on that. And, uh, Um, especially if it's a highly emotional conversation, you might get defensive. I mean, there's a, there's ways that, uh, another person or a group can react or respond that kind of, uh, dismantles the opportunity to move toward productive working together or in a family relationship toward just staying in relationship sometimes, um, if that makes sense. so much. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, you've kind of, you're, you're almost answering this next question again, I think, but, but do you have more examples of how you still have the necessary conversations despite those? Um, sure. Yeah, I do. Um, I think for me, it is, um, learning, um, it pretty intentionally. Looking into what it means to be a non anxious leader, and then, um, identifying those principles and concepts. And I'm practicing them and it's a new skill set. Really? I would say. And again, I want to be very clear that I'm only a few years into this journey. So there are others I think, who can speak more deeply, maybe into the. Uh, family systems theory, uh, ideas that underline or underlie what I'm learning about and trying to apply in my own life. But for example, um, one practice that I have found helpful both in my, um, mission life, my nonprofit work professional life, and in my personal life. Is this idea of defining for myself? What is the value? What is the value I hold in this conversation in this moment? Um, you know, there's like the big boulder values we have in our lives. And by this stage of my life, I have, I know those pretty well. I'm not always great at. In this conversation, what is what is the value, uh, that I really hold that I, as the conversation goes forward, and I'm managing myself, um, how is it that I want to manage myself so that I walk away when it's all done, knowing I've upheld that value and I care more about that than the outcome. Yeah, um, so so for an example, I'll give is, um, and maybe anybody could relate to this, um, sort of a challenged relationship. Um, in your family, um, parents and parents and adult children might be a good example of, or, or in my case, uh, well, I have that, but I also have, um, elderly parents and, um, uh, if you throw in some, uh, variables like, um, declining mental acuity, um, increasing emotional fatigue, Uh, fray, frayed edges, Um, I have to consciously say to myself, uh, what I desire here is, uh, that my, um, loved one feels my love. Hmm, uh, more than that they understand what I'm trying to say. Uh, more than that, I get my way. More than, um, that they see I'm really in charge and I know what's best and they should absolutely follow my idea. Yeah. So that has been very helpful for me if I'm driving to an important meeting and I've done all my prep, I've got all my data, all my content, I will think through, um, what it what is the value here and maybe maybe the value that I want to, you know, For myself, um, know that I'm carrying with me into this meeting is, um, they understand the mission of our organization and even if they forget all my data points, even if, um, uh, if, if I walk out of the room and there's, uh, questions about why we do what we do, then I will not have succeeded. And the tension I'll feel within myself. is increased. Yeah. Um, so that's an example of a skill. It seems kind of obvious that, that we think we know what we want to come out of a given conversation, but I've learned that's not true for me. I have intentionally name it. Yeah. Think about it and name it. Yeah. I would imagine that that helps when you're feeling emotional. That can help clarify and focus you in, in those difficult moments. Is that, does that ring true with you? Um, yes, it does. Um, and a difficult moment, for example, might be, um, if somebody is just disagreeing with me. So one of the, um, benefits of naming my value and what I want. Is for is to be able to let somebody disagree with me and, uh, except that, um, it's not because if I've named a value, if my value is, I want to be right. I want to make this thing happen. Yeah. Then we will have. A conflictual and tension filled conversation. Yeah. If my value is to, um, uh, simply share and, and to, um, uh, view this maybe as a step in a longer process, then I can, um, accept disagreement. A lot of the work I do is, is, um, generating collaboration, which is very hard. Yeah. Cause you're asking people I've learned. I think what you're really asking them is to give up their time. Yeah. People want to throw in their ideas that this is all good. But then when you say, well, here's the project that has emerged and this would be the thing where you would need to engage it and I could see it might take this many people in this long of a time and maybe some money and then. Things really start to change. So if I need to lead collaboratively, I have to be willing to say, okay, we're going to shift this because. That's not going to work for you. And I, I just can't be rigid about that. Um, and so another value I often carry with me into meetings and conversations is, um, yeah, find out what works for everybody. Everybody's not going to get everything, but everybody should get something. Is there a piece of this idea? Cause, cause when I'm listening to you, this value that we're holding, like the value that is going to come from the conversation, it's, it's, it's, it's It seems it's like another way to say it would be what's the outcome that we're desiring. Is that right? What's the outcome we want from this conversation? Am I, am I on the right track there? Or is it something more than that? Um, I'd say it's more than that. Um, for me, it is about, um, leaving the conversation feeling like, Feeling fully myself. So there are times even still where I can adapt. So if the conversation is hard and someone's pressing in, it's a lot easier to say, well, okay. We'll just go with your plan. We'll do it your way. Yeah. And then, and, and maybe that is fine for an outcome, but it often, I will leave feeling like, ah, you did it again. You didn't, you didn't know what you wanted going in and, and you couldn't navigate in a way that, um, you stood up not just for myself personally. But for the mission that I'm charged with upholding. Yeah. So, so there are other pieces of it. Um, that I think, and I want other people to also, you know, be themselves and self differentiate and uphold their value. And, um, but I think the beauty of when that happens is, um, then we each are taking responsibility for ourselves. Yeah, and, um, the conversation can, I hate to say flow because in a really charged 1 might not flow, but it goes back in a way that, um, you know, I can hear hopefully the other person can hear. Yeah, and there's respect mutual respect. Yeah. And willingness, sort of the willingness to disagree, um, sometimes it's helpful for me to, to say out loud, um, well, this is what I think, and I know you might not agree or you might see this differently. Um, and that to me then is like, okay, I am being myself. I'm holding to. Uh, my whatever I named is that value going in and I'm saying, I recognize you as an independent thinker with your own thoughts and ideas. And, um, I'm not here to shut that down. Yeah. So, so is, is part of that having that value then? Valuing what we as individuals are bringing to the conversation and valuing ourselves because if I'm hearing you right, it almost sounds like if we're not valuing ourselves, if we're having a difficult conversation and I don't value what I bring and I don't value myself and who God's made me to be, I'm going to be much more likely to kind of Oh, okay. Let's do it your way. Is that, is that headed in the right direction there? Am I, am I anywhere near, near the bullpup or is it something completely different? Yeah, no, I think that's a, that's one of the dangers, right? If we don't know who we are, um, and especially as leaders, um, how we want to lead, it's, You can go in one of two directions, right? You can become the dictatorial. We're doing it my way. I don't care what you think kind of leader, or you can become the leader who only leads by consensus or who acquiesces or who people wonder, you know, what is it that, um, you see you have as a vision or where you're going, um, and what you want to, um, stand up for and uphold because it is, um, uh, it's hard. I think it it's harder to lead to be in this more middle space, but for me, the reason I had to seek out this kind of these kind of ideas is because, um, I had to, I didn't have a good sense that I was a self differentiated leader that I knew who I was and was leading from this. Sort of grounded place of, um, yep, I know where I'm going and, and as I mentioned, it was partly due to reduce this inner anxiety, um, that, um, that I often feel, um, another example might be, uh, um, for example, with my elderly folks, whom I love dearly. Um, but for example, Um, naming my value in a conversation with before I go into a hard conversation with them. Yeah. Um, and it could be about anything, right? I have the power of attorney for health care for finances. If it's a hard conversations, let's say about money. Um, I have to know going in. I have to think ahead of time what is important to share and what doesn't actually need to be shared. That will only cause them anxiety. Yeah. Um, and then, um, I have to sort of name to myself again, sometimes daily my boundaries and then I often call my sister and say, okay, I need you to swoop in here because I'm stepping out over here. Um, because I, uh, it's delicate and fragile and I don't want to really disrupt the balance, which some days there isn't any, Um, so all of that to say is, um, it can be complex, but it's my responsibility to be aware of all that. And, um, as my parents leader, I guess at the moment, the roles have flipped. Um, I'm not the child as much anymore as, um, that, um, I can have these hard conversations, do these hard things, enlist the help of others. And, um, I still want to be very emotionally connected to them. Um, and that is a little bit more, requires a little more intentionality. Yeah. And work than I might have been able to name four years ago. Yeah. When we moved into this season. Yeah. So I love that you brought up this idea of boundaries, um, because, because from my perspective, it seems like if you don't have healthy boundaries, in a sense, you're really never going to be able to have healthy conversations really of any kinds, because you don't know where to say, actually, this is enough. So I have a question In regards to boundaries and then also being able to go into conversations Having named the value that you want to get from that. What's what's going to be? Um, how do you want your the other people to feel like just the other night? um We were having dinner and my daughter loves bread, right? So when these come I'm saying this because when these conversations come up unexpectedly Like she, she loves bread and she, we were having pizza, um, cause they had a fundraiser at school and um, and she had a, there was a breadstick. It came with a breadstick and she ate half of it. And I said, now, Lucy, before you have the other half, you have to have the salad because we've got a salad too. And that was, that was the end of the world for my poor six year old. Um, it was, life was unfair. She was telling me life was unfair and I don't like salad and how can I eat salad if I'm, how can I eat my bread if I have to eat my, it was just, it was a whole thing. In those moments that now I kept, I knew what my boundary was and I kept it. But how do I, like, how do you approach something on the fly knowing what your value is? Is that kind of, does that come from more your character and something that's instilled in you or is it not necessary in every conversation? How would you approach that? Um, yeah, great question. Um, you can't always prepare, right? Yeah. Um, and parenting, Zach, is its own whole bailiwick of special skills that, um, most of us didn't realize we needed till you, till they flew the coop. Right. Um, yeah, and, and it's relentless, right? Parenting is day in and day out and, and situations just pop up. Yeah. Unexpectedly. Um, well, I think for me, Um, the idea is that, um, and this is, this is sound too simplistic, but let's just stick with your Lucy example for a second, right? In the moment you have to decide, does it matter more to me that she eats her vegetables? And therefore I am willing to endure a tantrum or a crime spell or a much longer dinner, um, or something else, uh, to get her to do that. Or. When I look ahead at the evening and I see all these other things that have to be done and, um, uh, and how hard it is to get her to bed already and I don't need her to be more upset than she, she will, she will be if I, if we have to sit here for an hour waiting for you to vegetables, um, like those are the kind of factors, uh, that you have to sort of weigh and they may change in my mind. That kind of stuff may change from day to day. Yeah. It doesn't make you. An inconsistent parent. It just makes you realistic in my view. And you have boundaries for yourself, right? Um, if you have something going on that evening, you can't sit there, uh, for another hour and argue about this and hope something makes it down her throat. Um, and so, um, I think. In the moment, um, sort of the moment of choice, we have to, um, recognize, uh, sort of the process that's at play and then, um, so for me, it's most helpful to name it in myself. So, if my emotional process in the moment is anger, I should probably. Yeah, literally close my mouth and pause, um, even in a meeting or a one on one conversation, uh, or on the phone with my mom, I should just take a breath. And that is something else that I am trying to practice. I think most people are willing to let us be quiet. And maybe it might help them too. I don't know. I've never tried it for an extended time, but I have even gone so far as to say, well, wait a minute, give me a second. I, I need to gather myself. Yeah. Um, and then breathe deeply. Um, I know we throw that around glibly in some circles, but I actually think there's value. And taking that pause and, and self regulating, um, so that I can think better and more clearly. And there are times when I have said, wow, I, I'm not sure about that right now. Yeah. I need some more time. Can I get back to you? Yeah. Uh, and, and sometimes I know. But I don't want to express it in the current climate. And it's better to have the followup conversation, um, the next morning or the next day and say, thanks for the grace to take a break yesterday. I really needed to collect my, to collect myself and it works on the con, uh, reverse side too, right? If I see. The person I'm talking with is getting deeply emotional and that can happen in a bunch of ways, right? If, um, they're externalizing, you never, you always, um, they're not speaking for themselves anymore. They're throwing stuff back at me. Then I'm like, You know, we can take a break to finish this in this moment. And, and that is a form of boundary. Uh, I think that, um, well, it can be very helpful. I just have to stay aware for myself and for the emotional process going on with the other. Yeah. I love that you brought that up. Beth. I think that's I think identifying those emotions is so powerful because so often I think that the world tells us we have to be fast and we have to respond quickly and if you're going to be a good leader, you know, just go for it. Um, I, I think you're right that to be an emotionally intelligent leader, we really have to be willing to say, Hey, I'm feeling angry right now. I need five minutes. Can I have five minutes? Um, and in actuality, that's not going to, like, people aren't going to lose respect if we do that. They're going to respect us more, I've found. Um, has that been your experience? Um, yes. And I, I just need to be very transparent here. Um, that as a woman leader, as a female leader, I am cautious about using that Um, approach, especially if, um, anger, it's like the, it's anger close to tears or it's frustration close to tears, or it is pain, um, because unfortunately we haven't arrived at this place yet where women are given the same freedom as male leaders. Um, although. In the, in the church and Parachurch world in which I work, I think there's a little bit more grace for that. Hmm. Um, and I, I'm just, I feel deeply aware of it. Hmm. Um, one advantage I do have. I think is my age. So I, I think that, um, and there are people older than me. And then in that case, my age doesn't really work for me as well. But when I'm working with people who are younger than me, I feel, uh, um, I don't know, a little more freedom to sort of, Step into that space of saying, yeah, break, uh, or I don't quite understand the dynamic at work there. I want to be totally clear and maybe I'm taking unfair advantage. Um, but I'm, I don't know, you get to a point you've been. In enough meetings, you've had enough hard conversations, you've led enough weird, bizarre conversations or facilitated something that, um, didn't go, went a little bit South. I don't know. You feel a little bit more freedom, uh, in that to, to speak up and say, break time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Beth, for, for being open and transparent about that. I, I appreciate it. It's. It's interesting to hear sometimes the perspective of, obviously, a woman, because I, I am not that. Uh, that also makes me really sad that that's kind of, we're still in that place where, I mean, I've cried at work before because I was angry or frustrated or whatever. Um, I never thought two seconds about it. And the fact that, um, you have is, is, Makes me sad. So, so we'll get better. We'll keep working. We'll get better. I like to think that the successive generations are going to figure this out. Zach, your generation is going to figure this out. And, um, you know, these kinds of changes. They do take time. I know we like to think we can flip some kind of cultural switch. Yeah. And, uh, this will all right itself. Um, but but for all the years that men have been in leadership, that's sort of the. Image everybody carries of what a leader looks like. And, um, so, uh, women, I think sometimes we put it on ourselves. Well, I have to function in this way. Yeah. And, um, no. Yeah. And I think that's part of what I'm seeking is, um. Even after all these years to who am I really? And how do I want to lead authentically from who I am? I think that's a great, we're, we're running, starting to run low on time here. I think it's a great way to transition. Um, I have a lightning round of questions that I'd love to ask if you're ready. Okay. I'm ready. Great. Uh, your favorite leadership quote. Um, yeah, I think I would say, uh, that it's the function of leadership to produce. More leaders, not followers. And that is, um, something Ralph Nader of all people said. I love it. Um, what's one underrated skill in leadership? Mm hmm. Uh, your favorite author? Uh, Eric Larson. Okay. You know who he is, writes all the, uh, historical fiction books, but they're not fiction really. No, I've never heard of him actually. Oh, oh, you've got to read him, Zach. Okay. Start with Isaac Storm, the story of the Galveston Hurricane. Okay. In the early 1900s. Devil in the White City, Dead Wake, Garden of the Beast, they're all, Oh, they're fantastic. They're captivating. Great. I'll put it on my list. I love new books. Okay. The most frustrating excuse someone can make for not entering the danger. Oh, don't worry things will still turn out. Okay, everything works out in the end You don't have to pursue that Yep Your favorite question to ask other people, um If it is a first time or cocktail party kind of kind of conversation Yeah, I usually ask where have you traveled lately? um if it is a work you know, kind of more in depth conversation and we're wrapping it up. I usually ask, um, what, what didn't you say that you really did want to say, or what didn't you tell me that you think I need to hear? That's a good one. I love that. Uh, what's something that you do to make sure you're always learning? Um, well, I read a lot right now. I'm reading a book called Sacred Playgrounds by Jacob Sorenson, which is about the theological underpinnings for Christian camp ministry, which is the. I work in, um, and then I try to work on a listening skill called tell me more. So just ask somebody what else you got? Tell me more. Can you give me an example? Explain that. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I'm not surprised because your favorite question, it was. What didn't you say that I should? So it makes, it's, it makes sense. Yeah. Your favorite podcast. I listened to a podcast called the non anxious leader by, um, Jack Shatama, and, uh, he's usually under 15 minutes once a week. And it is a key support for me in this non anxious leadership. Uh, journey that I'm on awesome. A book that you keep rereading the divine conspiracy by Dallas Willard. Yep, that's a good one. Mm hmm. What's a quality that you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them? They laugh easily. Yep. Full of joy. You're right. Um, your favorite way to build trust with other people? Um, well, I think this goes back to my Enneagram number, uh, do what I say, I'll do deliver results. Yeah, um, and then I guess the caveat with that would be be a real person and show care and concern along the way. Don't just be so bullheaded to get to the end that I forget this process of relationship. While we're, um, working toward a common goal, how does gratitude impact your life? Well, I'm a follower of Jesus. And so I'd like to think that weaving gratitude into all day, every day, because I walk with him and he's showing me. Um, is something I've internalized, um, daily. Yeah. Great. Mm hmm. How do you stay sharp at work? Um, well, I'm a real people person. I have got to stay connected to, to everybody, my colleagues, my coworkers, the pastors in my network. Um, so I, I meet a lot of people for coffee, um, other, cause I kind of work alone. Uh huh. Uh huh. So I, I have to hit the road. I have to do virtual meetings. I have to invite, um, folks to connect and that, I don't know if it keeps me sharp, but it keeps me motivated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you do to rest? Oh, wow. Um, play with my grandchildren. Uh, how many, how many grandkids do you have? Five. Congratulations. Sorry. You were saying cook as well. Uh, I like to cook with my husband. I like to garden. Um, I like to read, walk. I'm a big walker. Um, there's lots of good ways to rest that don't involve sleeping or laying down. Yeah. Do you have any veggies growing in your garden right now? Um, No, my garden was a bust. I have basil, parsley. Yeah. Um, and chives, which everybody has. Yep. All right. Excuse me. Yeah. My wife's cat came in and started meowing. So if you heard, if you heard the meows. Um, uh, last question, um, um, is white chocolate really chocolate? No, it is not. Great. Great. I'm glad to hear that. Uh, although I will say, um, uh, we went to Iceland for our honeymoon and they had some white chocolate there that was infused with lime and chili and something else that was actually, it was edible. So, so there you go, many other flavors, Zach. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Uh, but I'm really grateful to you for coming on the podcast. Um, I'd love to give you an opportunity. Are you working on anything? Um, or is there anything you'd like to shout out and give a check this out too? Um, well, I just say, Hey friends, if you have a Christian camp near you, please support it and send your kids and participate and send them a contribution. Yep. We're making a difference in the world. Young people need this. Absolutely. If you have listened to this podcast for any length of time, you know that I also worked in community service. campaign for a long time. I love Christian camps. Let's, let's support Christian camps. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Beth, I'm really grateful to you for joining me. Uh, thank you so much. I've loved the conversation and I look forward to getting coffee with you hopefully soon. I'd love to do that too, Zach. Thanks so much for the invitation today. It's been awesome. Yeah, absolutely. I'll talk to you later. Take care. Another good conversation. Thank you, Beth, for joining me on the podcast this month. Also, as you probably noticed, this episode didn't come out at the end of September, as promised, but better late than never, I guess. As always, I really appreciate your time and your ears as you have joined me this month for the podcast. I haven't finalized who I'm going to have on the podcast next month, uh, so it'll be a surprise for you and for me, uh, but I do hope you'll come back and join me at the end of November. Uh, it will come out probably the day before Thanksgiving, um, and listen to another podcast on how to have effective conflicts and effective difficult conversations. So that we can be better in our relationships. I hope you have a wonderful month until next time. Oh, and a happy Halloween. Enjoy all of the sugar that your kids will be eating after Halloween. Thank you all so much for joining me this month on the Enter the Danger podcast. I really appreciate you being here with me and I'm grateful for your time. If you enjoyed the podcast, I'd also appreciate it if you left a review or rated it wherever you consume your podcasts, but more than that, I'd really appreciate it if you shared the podcast with someone else. If you have any advice to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at zac, that's Z A C, at zwilcoxconsulting. com. That's also my website, zwilcoxconsulting. com, or you could call me at 559 387 6436. I also take texts if you don't like to call. Or if you just want to talk about entering the danger as well and what that means, how to implement that in a better way in your own life, please let me know. I'd love to connect and chat. I love meeting new people. I love talking about this topic of entering the danger. Thank you friends for being here again. Until next time, let's remember to choose kindness, empathy, and curiosity.