Katie Armentrout - Owner of Peoplefluence

 This month I'm joined by my friend Katie, the owner of Peoplefluence. Katie is a powerful coach and asks meaningful questions to help you understand yourself more.

Here are the promised links from the podcast:
Katie's LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katiearmentrout
Peoplefluence website: http://www.peoplefluence.com/
Katie's Email: katie@peoplefluence.com
Top Talent Accelerator: https://www.peoplefluence.com/tta-offer-page1733781446554
It's a Good Life podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/5t4rlBQz31cXiYeyirtMJC
Jesse Cole's website: findyouryellowtux.com
Savannah Bananas: thesavannahbananas.com
Think and Grow Rich: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/think-and-grow-rich_napoleon-hill_august-gold/246721/?resultid=c43138bf-bbed-40d4-b708-4b31195d7a43#edition=14505600&idiq=28340101

Transcript

0:12

Hello friends. My name is Zach and welcome to the enter the danger podcast, where we have conversations to help us grow in our skills, enter into difficult conversations, kindness, empathy and curiosity so that we can be more effective in our jobs and have deeper and more meaningful relationships. My guest this month is Katie Armentrout. Katie is a certified working genius facilitator and founder of PeopleFluence, an organizational health firm that equips leaders with the tools to transform a group of individuals into a cohesive dream team. Before starting PeopleFluence, Katie served as the North American sales director for a Fortune 50 company and a board member for a non profit. She earned her MBA from UNC Chapel Hill and her BSBA from St. Louis University. It's a great conversation. I'm really excited to share it with you. So let's jump straight into it. Hi Katie, how are you doing today? I'm good, how are you doing? I am doing very well. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm really excited about this conversation. I'm gonna jump straight into these questions if you're okay with that. Yeah, let's do it. Awesome. First one, what is one event that affects how you enter the danger with others? Wow, we are just jumping right into it. Yes. Yes. Um, when I think about entering the danger, the event that really changed it for me was years ago when I started in my, uh, corporate role for, I'm a recovering corporate person. I was in corporate for 13 years. And when I first started, I was doing this, um, I was in marketing and I was doing a share report. And it was basically a long story short. I was given a file with a bunch of raw data and I had to run macros and Excel and then spit out the report and analyze it. And I was so new at the time. I didn't realize there was an error in the report in the share report. And it got sent out weekly to probably 30 people, you know, all the way up to the VP of the division, all like peers, manager, everyone, like a lot of people. And I was probably 8 weeks into doing this report when my manager finally pulled me aside and said, if I were, this is an example of what not to say, but he said, Katie, if I approach things like you did, I would be a failure. And I said, yeah. Yes. And so what, when he elaborated, he told me I was doing the report wrong and that there was an error in one of the formulas. I was so new at the time. I didn't realize that, like, 1 and I don't even remember the error, but it was something like, I was reporting that our share was 35%, but it really should have been like 45%, but I was so new. I didn't have that perspective or reference point. Yeah, and I realize, um, that. at that point. So I've been doing this eight weeks. So I had sent this report out eight times to 30 people all the way up in the organization and my peers, one person, not a single person, not my team, not my coach who sat next to me, who is, you know, like a fellow ABM. I was an assistant brain manager. Nobody pulled me aside and was like, Hey, I think your report's off. And I look at that now and I was mortified at the time. And when my fan, my manager finally brought it to me, he, I mean, obviously he didn't do it in the right way, but. I, I realized, and you know, I'm like, I want to do well. I think most people want to do well. And when we make errors, we don't realize that we're making them. And so we need them pointed out to us. So I was grateful that he pointed it out eventually. I mean, but the way that it was approached was very wrong because it wasn't me. And then also, um, there's a real separation in that of like, Um, you know, I think effective managers, everything I know about leadership that I've learned since then in the last like 15, 20 years, like good managers want to make their people look good and that he, and he was a different type where it was like, I know I'm awesome. Gosh, my team sucks. You know, like he put it all on me and so anyway, it was just, it was, um, that was an example of like how entering the danger. It was critical, but it was done in a very poor way, but, But the benefit for me, what I learned was, wow, it really is important to give people feedback in a very timely manner. And then also, um, because in the realization that they probably, they may not have any idea that they're doing something wrong. So, um, that's, that was the event that really changed how I thought about having tough conversations and really just giving feedback. That's quite a story. I was not expecting you to say that. Wow. Um, that, that kind of shocked me. Okay. Um, eight weeks. Me too, in the moment. Eight weeks. You were doing that? Eight weeks. That's crazy. That's crazy. Um, okay. Uh, what's, now I'm struggling to move on to this next question. Talking about struggles. Um, what's one struggle or weakness that you have when it comes to entering the danger? Yes, I think the struggle for me, there's two of them that come to mind. One is that I always want to delay it. I just want to put it off. Like, do I really need to have the conversation? Yeah. Disturbance is always necessary. Like that's always a good question to ask. I tend to put it off a little bit longer than I should. Um, and the second thing is I tend to, I'm much better at it now, but I tend to sugar coat things or not To communicate the severity of the situation. If it is severe. And I, you know, I grew up in artificial harmony. Um, and in my corporate job, it was all artificial harmony. People just aren't trained in this stuff. People are not trained in how to have tough conversations and give people feedback. And so I. And what I've learned from that is, um, you know, when I'm delaying, I just had to have one earlier this week and in one with an employee right before Christmas. And, you know, whenever I have it, it usually doesn't go as bad as I think it is going to go. So I've had, I've done it enough times that I delay less and less and I sugarcoat less and less. But, uh, those are the two things that I just, I fall, like, That are kind of my weaknesses and still doing the conversations to this day. Yeah. Is there, is there something that you coach yourself through before you have the conversation or maybe a ritual that you have going into those conversations? A, so that you don't delay it, and then B, so that you aren't sugarcoating, but you're saying things in the way that they need to be said? Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so I, I always, um, I always pray that this is something personal, like before the conversation that like I have the right words and the right message gets across. Um, prior to even that, I get really clear. I usually go on a walk or I journal and I just, the, the biggest benefit that I can provide myself and the other person or people if they're multiple involved is clarity. And being just really, really clear. And so I get that through walking and talking to myself. Sure, if you talk to my neighbors, they'd be like, Oh yeah, Katie's the one who talks to herself when she's walking around the block with a dog. Um, but yeah, so I always, I wanna get really, really clear on what is the problem. Um, and then the second thing is, what am I afraid of? So in delaying the conversation, what am I afraid of? What will happen? And then what is, what's my role in the situation? Where may have I, where did I go wrong? So did I, did I provide clear expectations? Um, so I go through those questions in my mind ahead of time just to get, again, bring clarity to the situation. And then the other thing that I do is also, um, separate the identity from the behavior. And I know you have a daughter. This is really important in parenting, too, when you're disciplining children. There's a huge difference between you made a bad decision and you are a bad person. I even think you are a bad person because that's not how we should be talking to one another and that's usually like almost never the case, but we make bad decisions. We are not bad people. So um, Uh, it's it's being able to communicate to them. Hey, here's the situation. And then. Um, I always make sure that I ask them. How do you, where could you have gone wrong? So it's not just blasting them for something that didn't go well. But do you see where it went wrong? What could you do to fix it? And I want them to take the ownership of the problem solving. I don't want to step in and do it for them or tell them how it's done. I want them to think through it so they can, um, figure out what the issue is. I'm thinking about a specific. Issue I have with an employee where he was making bad choices, and I had to correct that, but it still applies of. Of just what is the issue and, and helping them understand, um, and really seeing it. So, going, going back just a little bit, um, Katie, you said that you're sugarcoating things and one of the things you do to get past that is going on walks to see, to see clarity. Does that clarity then help you not sugarcoat things? Is that, is that part of that process in that, hey, if I know really clearly what's going on, then I can have a better. Chance of actually not sugarcoating, which I guess the subtext there might be, is the re, because I'm, I'm the same. I, I'm a chronic sugarcoater. I try to try to say it's totally fine. It's not, it's going to be okay. It's not a big deal. All of those things. You're good. It's all good. We're fine. Is that, is that a symptom of not being able to clearly identify the problem or is it something different? It's a good question. Is it a symptom of not being able to clearly identify the problem? Um, maybe it's not, it comes from a fear of, I don't want to hurt the other person's feelings and, and I think that's normal, but it also. It's okay to hurt people's feelings in the right, um, you know, it happens like that's where growth comes. Not that I'm ever trying to intentionally hurt someone or speak harshly, but I know it's not always easy. I put myself in their shoes. I think that's a lot where it comes from is I put myself in their shoes. I'm like, okay, how would I receive this? And it's always, it's hard for people to hear. I mean, unless you're in a, in a, a culture and an environment where you hear it often, I, I didn't grow up in this culture, but where you're constantly like, having things, you know, Pointed out to where, um, for the most people that I encounter in my work in my leadership development company, they're just not used to it or leaders haven't created a culture of feedback and a culture of continual learning. And so, if, if you aren't a part of a culture where, where teammates naturally give each other feedback, then, um. Every conversation can feel like a big deal, but, um, the one minute manager is a really great resource. Have you read the one minute manager? Yeah. I recommend that book all the time. I actually should probably read it again myself. Um, because it's about doing it in the moment and Also, but when you do it in the moment, it's just like quick, it's one minute. It doesn't have to be an hour long or a 30 minute meeting. And, um, there's a way to do it or I can address the behavior, tell them the consequences of the behavior. Like I'm not, not a punishment, but like, Hey, because this didn't go well, this is the larger impact that that decision had. Yeah. And then. You know, provide a path of either encouragement or, you know, affirm their identity if that's needed. Um, but it's so that's kind of where rather than, you know, sugarcoating is just downplaying the, again, the severity of the situation. Um, yeah, so that's how I. So anyway, your initial question was like, is, does the sugar coating come with lack of clarity? I don't think it comes from the lack of clarity as much. I think it just comes from, like, I don't want to come across harshly to someone, but yet if I don't share them, but if the problem continues to happen, then it's draining for everybody. So I just have to overcome that fear and just tell them how it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I'm hearing you and I've. This is something that I care, that I've had to work through personally, um, so, so I think I'm hearing you right, but, um, if we sugarcoat things, and we don't say clearly, this is what's wrong, this is the consequences of it, as you said, then not only won't it improve, but it's going to continue hurting them and the rest of the team. Uh, and so in essence, in trying to avoid causing them harm, you will, you'll be causing them and everyone else greater harm. Is that, is that, have I, have I summarized that well? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's an impact to not entering the danger for sure. Like there's an impact to you, I mean, to me as a leader, if I delay it, um, or if I don't address it in the right way, not that everything is a severe situation, but matching that. Um, and really understanding the impact of it. If I don't address it, then it's draining on me because I haven't told the person anything, you know, and I'm like, gosh, I wish they would stop doing that. Or I wish they would do this instead. Well, if I notice this and I don't tell them, it's not on them. It's on me as the leader. And so that's where it's impacting me. So this is where I've learned not to delay or like be too nice about quote unquote, nice about things. Um, kindness is clarity. So it's being able to address things, um, minimizing that timeframe from when it happens to when I address it. And then also I do give people a lot of grace. I'm a very warm person. Um, and that can still come across. When I'm giving the feedback, but I also can't make it sound like if it is a big deal and there's a large impact, I have to relay that information so they understand I'm doing myself and them a disservice if I try to downplay the impact of the situation. Yeah. Yeah. What, one of my favorite quotes from Craig Rochelle is if there's an, if an employee has an issue and you don't do anything about it, the employee stops being the issue and you become the issue. Right. That's that's our responsibility as leaders. I use it all the time. Um, it might be my most quoted phrase when I'm working with leaders is if you don't address it, that employee isn't the problem anymore. You are. Yeah, yeah, I say something similar and I don't even know the origin of it, but. Leadership is what you practice, what you permit, and what you promote. And so, leadership, we all, we know what it's, we want it to be what we promote, right? Same with parenting, we want it to be what we say. Yes, we know it's about what we practice and what we do, but we almost never talk about. It's also what we permit. It's what we tolerate. And so when you're not addressing things and that's again, like I'm, I'm the problem then if I'm not addressing it with people, I can't expect people to change things that they don't know are wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, it's, and I'm like, you are, and I say that to a lot of my clients when they, especially when they have, you know, quote, unquote, problem employees or employees that they're struggling with in performance and when I dig into it with, um, and they're like, how do I have this conversation? I'm like, well, how long has it been going on? Have you, what have you done before? How have you addressed it? And if they, if they give me a blank stare and say, well, it's been going on for six months and I've never addressed it. I'm like, well, then it's on, so make them aware of that first. Like first you have to understand that. And then I work with you on how to address it, but you know, not addressing it is not solving the problem. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I think, I think this is such a powerful, powerful thought. I'm going to stay here for just a second longer because in that situation, you just outlined, if you haven't entered the danger with an employee, then you have, as you said, to use your language, you, you have permitted this behavior and they'll think it's okay. If you've walked by them doing something wrong for six months, And you haven't corrected them. Oh, I'm like, this is okay what I'm doing. What else are they supposed to think? Because it's your job as the leader to correct that. And if you haven't, what else are they supposed to think? Um, yeah, that's, that's, you, you must enter the danger, you must, I mean, I'm a huge fan of it. Now, now that I uncovered the skill and I know what to do, it is, I think it's the one single skill that would, you know, If, if leaders did nothing like leadership's a really ambiguous word, it means a lot of things, but leaning into tough conversations. I think if, if everyone could learn how to do that in a better way, which is also what I do for a living now with my company, that is like the one skill that is such a game changer because you're conquering your fears and. Really holding people accountable because that's another thing that, you know, in, in org health, we get asked all the time. It's like, oh, I'm, I, everybody wants results, but how do I hold people accountable to results? Yeah. And, and you, you can't hold people accountable if you aren't having these conversations and, and giving them the direct feedback that needed feedback. Um, for to improve the process, the situation, whatever it is. And again, it is separating the behaviors and the choices from the person itself is want to have conflict around ideas and processes and decisions. We don't want to have the conflict with. The person themselves. So yeah, being able to separate those two and learning how to do that is a huge thing. Um, yeah, when you communicate and you're prepping to have a conversation with someone. Yeah, yeah. And I, I think this is, this is so important as well, because it's just as applicable if not more so. In our relationships with our friends, or our spouse, or our family as well. I'm thinking back, we were talking before we started recording Katie about how I've been married for about four months now. There's been several times when she's done things, I'm like, oh, that didn't, that wasn't, I didn't like that. And if I let that go, how is she to know that that made me feel uncomfortable, or unloved, or unseen, or whatever? And so I have to be deliberate in speaking up and saying, Hey, Sierra, did you know that when you did this, it made me feel a little unseen or unloved or whatever. It's like, no, I had no idea. I'm sorry. That's how we grow is, you know, at work, as a couple, as friends, I have to do it for Lucy, my six year old all the time. So this is, this is every facet of our lives. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Um, okay, I'm gonna, uh, I wanna jump on because there's another, there's other questions I wanna ask. Um, you said, um, you like to let your employees solve the problems. And hey, if they're working on something, like you bring up the issue, but they have to solve it. How do you draw that line between letting them solve these problems and also timeliness? And, and at what point do you come in and say, okay, You're not getting it. Let me give you a solution or do you never do that? I don't really believe in the words always and never, right? Yes. There's like a, a time and a place for everything. It goes, so it depends on, um, do you know the leadership square model? Um, the leadership square, uh, I've seen it in so many facets. I think I want to say Ken Blanchard started it. Situational leadership is another way that I was trained on it in corporate. Um, but there's, there's four steps to it, but it's essentially what you're training someone. So if I have a new hire or I'm teaching a tenured employee a new skill, I'm not always, yeah, depending on the situation, I'm not like, Outcome base where like, Hey, I, some, it, it, it depends on the situation. So if it's a new person and a new skill, then I will train them on like, here, I'll do it if I'm handing something off, it's like, I'm going to do it. And then you watch and then the, yeah. So, and I'm pretty, I'm sure you've heard of it. It's called, yeah, I have, like, yeah. So it's like, I do you watch. You do I watch and then well, we get to we do it together. I'm forgetting all of the steps in the square. Yes. It's following that. It's following that method where, um, I'll, I'll tell them how to do it. Hey, here, this is how, um, Like my assistant who runs my calendar. I'm like, here are kind of the guidelines on how to schedule appointments on my calendar. Like keep these days open, these days off, here's the response time, things like that. Um, so it's really, it comes back to setting the expectation. It all comes back to the clarity and setting that expectation up front. So, There's something that I'm already doing and I want someone and I'm handing it off, then I will train them. Of course. Yeah. Now, when I'm at the point of my business and I'm hiring a social media manager, I'm hiring someone with skill who has skills that I don't have. Yeah, and so I'm giving this is more of the transformational leadership versus transactional where I'm just giving her an outcome like grow it this amount, whatever those metrics are, and she know, I know she knows how to do that. Yeah, and if we're not getting the result that we can have a conversation and dig into it a little bit more, um, but it's, you know, to answer the question, like, it, it depends, right? We're consulting. Yeah, yeah, so does it, does it depend on, would you enter the danger differently in those situations? Based on what the full, like, if you're showing them the first time, or if they're doing it on their own now, or if they're doing it while you're still watching, is it, is it? Change based on the phase that they're in. Yeah, I mean, because you have to take into account the pattern like that's that's the biggest thing is that is this a pattern and is it a first time offense? Are they learning? Um, and even with, you know, I had, um, yeah, it's just, what is the situation? Like, where are they, where are they out? What's going on? What's their past history. So I had an employee who's tenured and awesome and she rocks and she made a mistake and she made a couple of mistakes and, and I pulled her aside and I said, what is going on? Like, this isn't like you. And then learn like there was other things going on in life. So, but I know she has a pattern of performance and so, you know, one mistake. I'm like, I don't care. I mean, I really don't even care about mistakes that much. I just want to understand, like, do you realize what was going on? I'm more training them on, like, You know, how do we problem solve it? Um, but you know, and if you have someone new, obviously, you're going to extend more grace. But if there's someone who it's more of the intent behind it, if someone isn't trying or they don't care, or they don't seem engaged or energized, that's a very different conversation where it's trying to get at. Hey, here are the results I'm seeing at work. What's what's going on? And, um, really trying to get at. Okay. It's likely something deeper is going on. So is there, is there something deeper in their personal life? Did I offend them in some way? Are they pissed at me for some reason? If so, tell me because I'm, I'm unaware of it. Um, or, you know, just what's driving it. So I want to always get to the root cause of what's going on. And the work and the mistakes and the decisions might just be a symptom or likely a symptom of what's going on at the root. So do they know the process? Um, are they new to, are they tenured? Is it a new skill? What's their relationship with me? There's all those factors that I, um, I don't realize I go through them until I'm having this conversation with you, but those are all things that I really like take into consideration before addressing it with them. Yeah, yeah, that's, uh, thank you for sharing that, by the way. I, I especially, I especially appreciate how, and you, you mentioned this fairly quickly, I think, and then maybe elaborated on it a little bit, but you went into that conversation asking questions. Hey, what's going on? You're not normally like this. I think that can be so important, um, whenever you're entering the asking questions. I remember I had to learn that a really hard way when I used to go in accusing saying, Hey, this was wrong. And this was wrong. This was wrong when I used to, I used to run a few restaurants and there was one day I showed up and there was trash everywhere. It was just, it was just, it was messy. It was bad. And I saw three of my employees sitting there drinking water and I'm like, you're just standing here drinking. What are you guys doing? This is a mess. What I hadn't seen is quite literally they had just finished. Serving a guest and it had been non stop. They hadn't been able to drink water for about two hours prior to that So they had taken about 10 seconds because I walked in in that 10 second span Between when when they finished and then when I came in accusing them They're like, oh that's because they were already feeling defeated and exhausted and drained Anyway, that's that's a moment where I I didn't ask questions and it was You know kind of backfire so so really highlighting. Hey, try to figure out why this happened What especially when there could be things going on a harm that we don't know about that can have such a big impact on us Yeah, you know that situation that you described of like coming in like and you're just walking in You're walking into what you're walking in on like you haven't seen the whole movie. You're just seeing a snapshot Yeah, I do that with my kids All the time, I've gotten better at it. I become more aware of it, but I would walk in the door and I am, I, my superpower is that I see messes. I have three kids and a husband and a dog and yeah, I do not have the gift of walking just stepping over something and not seeing it and especially on the kitchen counter, which is the first thing I see when I walk in and I've had to train myself. I'm like, Hey, when I walk in the door and I, and the first thing I see is a mask and I should not verbally attack anyone should say, and I really like would notice this the past couple months. And so now when I come home, I'm like, I see it. I'm like, hey, kids, like, how was your day? And I've had to really learn how to set that aside because it's, it sounds, again, I'm cringing on the inside sharing this story, but it's so true. It's so relatable of like, when we walk in, the worst thing that you can do is just start attacking someone and accusing someone when I don't even know the whole picture and they may have had a bad day at school and whatever. Um, yeah, it's like, it's how you show up in the moment. Not that you're, you know, You know, quote unquote wrong to address that, or I'm wrong to address the mess, but it's the way that we approach it. Um, makes such a big difference rather than coming in and like, you know, throwing something down on the desk and start yelling wrong approach approach. We're getting close to running out of time. I've got one more question before we start wrapping up. You mentioned earlier on in the conversation how you want to look at your role in whatever's happened. Um, which again, I love that idea. One thing I coach my leaders on all the time is, hey, how did your leadership contribute to this outcome? How do we draw that line between, man, I have to take responsibility here for whatever my role is. And you have to take responsibility for yours, because that's a difficult balance to find how do we get to that place in a healthy way? Yeah, great question. It comes down to, you know, knowing your role as a leader is to set the expectation with people. And that's where you go back to, or, you know, I go back to, okay, something didn't happen the way that I expected it to. Yeah. Yeah, so let me look at, you know, and you can use the smart goals model or any, you know, but like, did I provide clear. Did I provide clarity of, of what I expected of them? And that's, that's really the first thing. So that's what I own as a leader. That's what the leader owns is like, did I communicate it what I wanted? Um, and then, so I, another, a simpler way to think about it. I communicate the what, and I'm responsible for the what, and they're responsible for the how. And so that's, You know, to simplify that question, that's how I, that's how I think about it. It's like, I will provide the direction of, Hey, this is where I want to go. How we get there. That's your job. I don't really. You know, I don't always care about how you get there. Just get it done. Here are the parameters, right? Like, don't spend a million dollars. Uh, here's your budget. Yeah. Um, whatever it is. But so my job as a leader is to provide the what, the direction and the parameters and then empower them on the how to achieve it. Yeah. So that's, that's really the simplest way that I, I distinguish between what I own and what they own. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Hey, I really enjoyed this time. Um, I'd love to go have a lightning round with you if you're willing Katie before. Let's do it. Awesome. Awesome. Great. Your favorite leadership quote possible. Oh, I just, um, I just heard a great one from John Matt. Oh, oh, this is great. I just heard this from John Maxwell yesterday. He said, um, there's no such thing as a balanced leader. But there is such thing as a balanced team. And I love that because we always talk about balance and work life balance and it's a mess. And that's a whole other podcast on that. But I thought that was really powerful. And that's really the essence of leadership is like, you can't be balanced as a single person, but your job as a leader is to hire great people around you and lead as a team. Yeah. Yeah. Which not to derail this, this too much, but the whole idea of work life balance work is a part of life. I don't know how we can have work life balance. Sorry, we won't, we'll stop right there. What's one underrated, that's right. Yeah. What's one underrated skill in leadership? underrated skill. I'm because I just was talking about this earlier today. It's the power of encouraging people. I don't think that we do that enough. And it can you can do it in written form, like through a handwritten note. Yeah, really speaking into someone not just saying thank you like the email thank you. It looks great. But really, um, Speaking into someone and identifying their gift and saying, I, again, I go to pattern. I'm discernment. That's my number one genius discernment and enablement for the people who know working genius, but, um, really being able to see patterns and people and speak into them of like, I, you have this pattern of greatness within you and really hone it, um, and encourage people in a very genuine way. Yeah. Uh, your favorite author? Oh. Oh, gosh. It's hard to pick a favorite. Um, I mean, I, I mean, I, when I think about leadership books, Um, I mean, I've probably read the, Pat Lencioni has been, Probably the biggest influence on me. Um, the five dysfunction of a team, the five dysfunctions of a team was the book that, that changed my life and my, the whole trajectory of my career. Yeah. The book that, that you and I first bonded over. Yes. So that's what you're picking. You're putting your, he's your favorite. I'll say Pat Lucci. Yeah, we're, we're gonna have write letters to all the other authors now and say that you're not Katie's favorite and then the other one, just because this is Org Health Focus. And I feel like that saying Pat Lencioni is like saying Jesus in church, you know, Yeah. Um, I will say, um, I am a huge fan of customer service. Jesse Cole. He's the owner of the Savannah Bement. Oh, yep. Love it. And first. Love him. Yeah. So there's something new for your, uh, audience if they're already familiar with Pat and love Pat. Jesse Cole, um, founder of the Savannah Bananas, fans first, it will change how you do business. Yeah. About a customer. People like customer experience. I'll put a link to Jesse's book in the show notes, also to the Savannah Bananas in the show notes. If you haven't heard of Jesse Cole and the Savannah Bananas, you've got to go, just YouTube it, Google it, do whatever you do. It's, it's amazing. Um, great. The most, the most frustrating excuse someone can make for not entering the danger. I don't want to hurt someone's feelings. Your favorite question to ask other people? How did you meet? How did you meet your friend, your colleague, your spouse, your partner? I love, I love that. I bet you get some great stories from that. Yes. What's something that you can do to make, sorry, what's something that you do to make sure you're always learning? I'm, oh man, I listen to podcasts and I read a lot of books. Your favorite podcast? Oh, sorry, and? Um, and I like to bring in people who have different point of views than me. Yeah So I just get out of my own like echo chamber. Um, favorite podcast. I love It's a Good Life by Brian Buffini He's a real estate billionaire, um, runs the largest coaching company called the Feeney and company or Buffini company. Uh, fantastic. There's very few, I'm very careful about what I put in. This is, I know this is lightning round. I'm going off script, but very like I wake up and I walk the dog first thing in the morning at like 5 AM. And there are very few things that I'm willing to put into my mind at 5 30 in the morning. Um, But the it's a good podcast life or it's a good life podcast is one of them. It's a phenomenal, uh, personal development, especially for entrepreneurs and business owners. Great. I will also link to that in the show notes, a book that you keep on rereading thinking, grow rich by Napoleon Hill. Yep. I'll also link to that if you haven't heard of it and the Bible. Yes. I'm sure there's still, I'm sure there are people who haven't read thinking rich, but, um, I'll put it in the show notes. Just in case, um, what's a book, what's a quality that you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them? Um, I'd say excitement. You know, just that they, they, like their eyes light up about whatever they're talking about, you know, like they, they're really reacting and engaging in life and in the world, joy. Yeah. Your favorite way to build trust with other people? Ask questions or actually a better one. Share my own faults. Yeah. Yep. Nothing builds trust like admitting you're like sharing embarrassing, stupid mistakes I've made. Yep. Absolutely. I love that. That might be my favorite answer to that question that I've got, by the way. Uh, how does gratitude impact your life? Oh my gosh, it is life. Uh, when I, uh, I was just, I just posted about thank you notes today. I don't know if you saw that on LinkedIn. I did, I did see it. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, gratitude, the more I, it, it pulls me out of a funk. Yeah, because I really like I have first everything I experience is a first world problem. Yeah, and it gratitude It trains my brain rather than complaining like you can't complain and be grateful at the same time Yeah, and so the more I practice gratitude for just the little things in life, like where there's a huge snowstorm in Cincinnati, we have a foot of snow, which is rare for us. I know it's a dusting in Wisconsin, but it's a lot here. I'm like, you know what? We've had power the whole time, you know? Um, but it trains, it trains me to like be grateful and appreciative about the little things in life and about people in general, rather than Yep. How do you stay sharp at work? How do I repeat the question? How do you stay sharp at work? Oh, how do I stay sharp at work? Um. It's my accent coming into play there. Ha ha. There's a coaching group. I'm a part of, uh, Dan Martell's elite coaching. That's the one that I'm in. So if you want to buy back your time, surrounding myself with a community of people who some of them are where I am, but a lot of them are ahead of me. So I try to put myself in rooms where I don't know anybody or I'm like the dumbest person in the room, not that I'm dumb, but I'm the least knowledgeable or, Just be around people who are a lot farther along with me. So I can always learn new things in different, different ways. Yeah. What do you do to rest? I have my husband put the kids to bed at nine o'clock so I can go to bed. So I, so I have my husband put the kids to bed so I can go to bed at nine o'clock. Yeah. Um, what do I do to rest? So, I mean, that's. I make sure that I get enough sleep at night and then resting for me, it comes in the form of, of working out, um, for sure. Just to like work out my brain and exhaust my body. Yeah. Yep. Uh, last question. Yoga, you said? Yoga? Last question, is white chocolate really chocolate? I've been waiting for this question as a follower of your podcast. I'm curious to hear an answer. I, and I don't have an answer. There's too much discernment in me. Um, uh, I don't like white chocolate. Yeah, so I'll take that as a no. I'll take that as a no. Yeah. I love dark chocolate, but white chocolate, it has such a distinct flavor to me that it doesn't taste like chocolate at all. Yeah. And I would throw the question back at you, Zach, of how do you define chocolate? Uh, how do I define chocolate is, is not white chocolate. That's how I, that's how I define it. My, my wife for Christmas got me Five or six bars of really nice, high quality, you know, bean to bar dark chocolate from the Dominican and Uganda and Tanzania and some Oh, I'm, I'm, it's great. So I'm, I'm all about that. That's chocolate. Yes. Uh, that, that is That is, that is chocolate. I, yeah. Um, we're, we're seriously, we're almost out of time. You, you've got like one minute left. Um, I, I really appreciate you being here, Katie, before we go, is there anything you want to shout out, anything you're working on, anything that you're excited about that you want to shout out? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Um, you can follow me on, um, LinkedIn. Follow me on Instagram. I'm, I'm more and more active on Instagram now, so on LinkedIn it's Katie Armand Trout, um, Instagram, it's Katie Armand, trout arm, and trout. And you'll, I know you'll link to all that stuff. My company is PeopleFluent, P-E-O-P-L-E-F-L-U-E-N-C-E. Peoplefluence. com. And I just launched this month, uh, something called the Top Talent Accelerator. So it's a group coaching program, open enrollment. People are welcome to join if you want to work with me and learn more about how to level up your leadership skills and become top talent at your company. Awesome. Awesome. And you answered my next question, which is, can people get ahold of you? So thanks for that. Yeah. Katie at peoplefluence. com. Awesome. Uh, again, thank you so much, Katie. I really appreciate it. I hope you have a great day. Yeah, thank you What a wonderful conversation, Katie. Thank you so much for joining me this month on the podcast. I really appreciate it. I had a lot of fun. My guest next month is Kim Furry. Kim is an orthopedic surgeon turned healthcare consultant. I'm really excited about that. She's got some, some great insights that she shares. You're going to love it too. So I hope you'll join me next month, February, last Wednesday, February for that episode. Thank you. Thank you all so much for joining me this month on the Enter the Danger podcast. I really appreciate you being here with me and I'm grateful for your time. If you enjoyed the podcast, I'd also appreciate it if you left a review or rated it wherever you consume your podcasts, but more than that, I'd really appreciate it if you shared the podcast with someone else. If you have any advice to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Zach, that's Z A C at zwillcoxconsulting. com. That's also my website, zwillcoxconsulting. com, or you could call me at 559 387 6436. I also take texts if you don't like to call. Or if you just want to talk about entering the danger as well and what that means, how to implement that in a better way in your own life, please let me know. I'd love to connect and chat. I love meeting new people. I love talking about this topic of entering the danger. Thank you friends for being here again. Until next time, let's remember to choose kindness, empathy, and curiosity.