Kim Furry - Orthopedic Surgeon

This week I'm joined by my friend Kim Furry, who is a retired orthopedic surgeon now working as a consultant for hospitals.

Here are links to what we talked about in the podcast:
At the Table Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/6NWAZzkzl4ljxX7S2xkHvu?si=28ba36ccb36243c9
Working Genius Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/3raC053GF5mtkq6Y1klpRU?si=7a1cf561c7cf454b
Legacy by James Kerr: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/legacy_james-kerr/8884605/#edition=8153000&idiq=4147273
Kim's Photography: https://kimfurry.com/

Transcript

0:12

Hello friends. My name is Zach and welcome to the enter the danger podcast, where we have conversations to help us grow in our skills, enter into difficult conversations, kindness, empathy and curiosity so that we can be more effective in our jobs and have deeper and more meaningful relationships. My guest this month is Kim Furry. Kim was born and raised in Durango, Colorado, where she grew up ski racing. Her dad was an orthopedic surgeon, and while she didn't initially plan on going into medicine, she not only ended up in medicine, but also in orthopedic surgery. She loves being able to help patients get up and walking again. She worked for her dad in his private practice for 15 years until it was bought by a medical group. Which is when she really started her path of leadership over the years. She's held various leadership roles, including president of the group, medical staff, president and medical director of specialty care. These days, she's consulting with surgical directors and joining me on my podcast. I'm really excited to share this conversation with you, so let's jump straight into it. Hi, Kim. How are you doing today? I'm doing well, Zach. How are you? I'm doing fantastic. I love recording podcasts, so I'm really, I'm really pumped for this. I'm excited about the conversation. Excellent. I'm excited too, and thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Glad you're here. Hey, first question. We're just going to jump right in. First question. What's one event that affects how you enter the danger with others? I don't know if it's truly an event as much as it is I don't know what you would call it. I think the relationship affects how I enter a conversation probably More than anything. I think the context of what has led to the need for this conversation If there's an event, it's probably the context that has led to the need for a more difficult conversation, crucial conversation. Uh, if I'm looking for an actual event, but I think how I show up depends on my relationship with the person. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what, what's a struggle or a weakness that you have? I think for me, it's just the fact that I have to do it at all. I, I'm not, um, I'm not somebody that loves having those difficult conversations. And so just, um, kind of running through the scenario in my mind, um, depending on how significant the conversation is going to be, maybe even practicing. It a little bit, um, parts of it out loud. If I can have the opportunity, I never got to this point, but there are some times that I wished I could kind of role model the conversation with somebody before I actually did it. Um, so that's my biggest struggle. Um, my, my normal everyday struggles are just kind of. fear of how the other person is going to react to what I have to say, and how do I get the message across in a way that Um, that other person's going to hear or accept it rather than kind of put up the, the walls. Those are the biggest concerns I have going into those conversations, I think. How do you get over that fear and still have the necessary conversations despite that? Um, I think the biggest thing for me is if I put myself into somebody else's shoes, I I would want to know if I'm doing something that is not conducive to the overall goal of the project, the group, the team, if I'm, um, causing somebody to feel badly about themselves or the work or whatever it is, right? If I put myself into that other person's shoes, I would appreciate somebody telling me. Yeah. Others don't always feel that way. I know. And sometimes they feel like it's a direct attack on them personally, rather than, um, hey, let's figure out what's going on in your life. Is there something going on? You're not acting like you normally act, um, or this is affecting the team in this way. How can we bring a better you to the team to, um, help us all progress? Um, forward. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love that you just brought up, uh, the asking questions. My last episode, um, talked about asking questions too and the importance of asking questions. So I love that. Um, how do you, how do you practice and what benefits do you get from practicing? Do you pretend of what the other person might be saying? How, how does that look and what benefits does that give you? Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes. I'm pretty confident in how somebody else is going to react. Um, sometimes I have no idea, right? Uh, but sometimes I'm pretty confident how people are going to react. And, um, practicing gives me the opportunity to think about what their responses might be and how I'm going to then respond or dive deeper with questions into that response. Okay. So is that, cause I've tried to do, that's something personally that I've tried to do in the past. Do you ever get, something that I've struggled with? Is I get kind of attached to this is what I'm gonna say. This is what they'll say This is what i'll say and it's this back and forth that I have with myself And then it doesn't go according to that plan, I kind of get thrown for a loop. How do you avoid that situation that I feel like I put myself in? Uh, good question. I think, one, it just prepares me for the what ifs, I think. And it just brings to mind what questions I might want to ask and what key points I want to make sure I deliver somehow or another. As I have that conversation. So, so that's the benefit to me. Um, and I think I'm, as I'm playing this through in my mind, uh, in anticipation of the conversation. I'm also in the back of my mind, knowing that it may not go this way at all. Right. So I'm not, I'm not, it's like a ski race. Right. And I. Would we go down and we study the course and we review it multiple times You know every three or four gates I kind of run through the course up to that point then you go to another three or four gates down the road and Down the hill and run through it again until it gets to the bottom and then all the way up on the chairlift I'm running through it over and over and over That never changes right? That's always going to be there. The gates don't move where they are for that run um These things are fluid, right? Um, and my next question is going to dispend, or my next question or statement is going to depend on what somebody else says. So I have to keep that in mind as I'm preparing that it's not a, it's not, this is how it's going to go and it's a one and done. Yeah. So am I understanding then that you kind of, you're using this practice and you're trying to put yourself in their shoes? Um, more to kind of say, all right, this is what I want to communicate and kind of remind yourself of the things that you, that you want to communicate going back to kind of how you said you're trying to prepare for key points that you want to get across in the conversation. Obviously, if there, if there's some whack in their behavior that needs to change, that's a key point. Is, is that the direction you're trying to go where it's more how might it feel for them to receive this? It's that's probably less of the direction I'm trying to go by practicing. It's probably me getting more comfortable with the conversation because I'm doing it over and over my head. Yeah. I'm also an orthopedic surgeon, right? So for complicated cases when I first started, um, practice, and even from simple cases, I will do the cases in my head the night before and for complicated things I may even do them the day of. For big fractures that I have a bunch of little pieces I have to put back together and stuff, I'll actually draw out a roadmap of what I'm going to do. Both so that I'm doing the case ahead of time here, but in my head. Um, but also then that road map is I put it on the wall. So the surgical scrub tech and people can know what my plan is now again, that plan doesn't go 100%. According to what's written on the wall of sometimes, you know, what I see on the x ray is not always what I find when I get in there. But again, it just prepares me and makes me a little bit more ready for something that gets thrown my way. That may be out of whack, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, it does. And how does I, I'm, I'm asking specifically, cause I know this is an area that I could really get better at. And so I'm, I'm loving this conversation because for me, it's, it's like, I get to learn right here as I, as I'm asking these questions, it's great. Um, I think you said you haven't been able to do role play in the past, but maybe that's something you wanted to do. Am I remembering right? You're remembering correctly, right? How, how might the idea of role play different from personal practice? Is it, it gives that kind of unknown. Cause you don't know how the other person's gonna interact or what's the benefit of bringing someone else. Into that practice with you. Yeah, I think it's useful if you have somebody that knows the person That that you're going to have the conversation with um and can just like Some of some of those people I know exactly how they're going to react or I have a pretty good idea of how they're going To react I shouldn't say I know exactly but I have a pretty good idea of how they're going to react and so I can Play that in my mind. There's other people that I don't know well enough at all to know how they're going to react. But if I, if I have somebody else in the inner circle that knows about the need for this conversation, conversation and knows, That person well enough they can kind of take on the persona of that person and answer it and how we might think that person is going to answer which then helps me more realistically say what I want to say, um, and get feedback like, yeah, whoa, you better not ask that question. Or you better not go down that path, or this is a much more gentle or more appropriate way to do that. So that's where I think the role model, um, conversation comes in. They can help me fine tune my conversation a little bit better. Yeah. I imagine that would take at least a moderate amount of trust to go to someone and be like, Hey, I need to have this difficult conversation with so and so. Will you help me practice? Is that di is that a difficult step, do you think, to take, is that a dangerous relate, like a relationally dangerous step to take? Um, I think it's hard just to find the, for me it's hard. It was hard just to find the time, right? Yeah. Uh, when, so I was a medical, the other thing I did was a medical director. So that was my last five years of orthopedic practice. I, I was a halftime orthopedic surgeon and halftime medical director, and that's where. These difficult conversations come up, right? And occasionally those difficult conversations are things that I just do on the fly because something needs to be addressed right now. Uh, sometimes it's a conversation that I'm having with other leadership, both an operations director and myself. We talk about how we best should address this. So we, we have these conversations on the side. Um, and sometimes rather than doing the role play, this is what I ended up doing just for time sakes, whatever, um, I would tell them what I think the direction is that I'm going to go with the conversation and they could provide feedback that way. So usually it wouldn't be a role playing with somebody that is out of the loop. It has to be somebody that's in the loop and knows. that something's going to happen. Yeah. Is there, is there a line between that and asking for advice on how to address a situation? Because I imagine that there's a lot of situations where as a medical director, as a surgeon, you're not sure how to handle a difficult topic. But I know for me, there certainly is even as a dad. And that's why I have, I read all kinds of books and I consult with experts, right? Because It's not easy being a dad, um, or, or a mom. Uh, is there a line there, um, between getting someone to help, you know, practice and then, and then also getting advice or are they unrelated? I think they're both true. There's probably some overlap, but they can also be separate in my mind. Um, but I think you're right. Nobody, nobody, when you become a medical director, I didn't get this handbook. Like, this is what you do in this situation. This is what you do in that situation, etc. Right? Yeah. And yes, you do get some leadership training, or you can ask for leadership training, get that. Nobody really sits down and says, let's practice difficult conversations, crucial conversations, right? Let's, let's practice entering the danger zone. Um, that, that doesn't really happen. And so it's, I do ask for advice on how I did. Um, and I still do sometimes ask for advice on how best would you address this situation with this person or just in general? Um, but I think that's a little bit different than the role playing, but yet the role playing is great for giving you advice back on how your, how you, how you did or how you might change and do better. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's helpful. I, I kind of want to, sorry, I'm not sure why this is connecting dots back for me. Um, to something you said at the beginning, um, when you were talking about the relationship matters and the context matters. Can you talk more about how the context comes into play when you're entering into the danger with someone, when you're starting to have that difficult conversation? How and why and whatever comes to your mind? Yeah, I think the context for me is, Is this something super egregious that needs to be addressed right now, um, that we can't let continue? Or is this something that is a little bit out of whack? And we'll kind of see how it goes. And maybe they're just having a good time. I know this is going on in their life, and maybe they're just kind of showing up in a way that's not, um, as beneficial to their, their peers, their patients, their work, um, because of what's going on in their life. And let's see how things go when this settles down a little bit. Um, versus, you know, somebody just starts, whatever, I'm just making this up totally, you know, screaming and yelling or, um, getting, you know, getting really upset, throwing stuff in the operating room, which used to happen, not infrequently, um, in the old days, uh, fortunately, it doesn't happen now anymore, but, um, so how do we, how do we draw the line between, between grace and expectations and accountability because what you just said made me think, you know, there's plenty of times when all of us have stuff going on in our lives that's difficult and because of that we aren't able to be our best selves and when we aren't It does affect our teams and it affects those around us. How, how do we draw that line to, to know, Hey, today we're going to give grace tomorrow, we're going to, you know, remind them of the expectations. Cause that seems like a really tough, uh, line and place to, to be in. I knew the answer to that. I'd be much better at this. Um, I agree completely, Zach, that. You know, how do you draw the line? I think I honestly don't know. You give them grace for a period of time and talk to the team and say, Hey, you know, they're going through a really hard time right now. Sometimes the team knows what they're going through. Sometimes the team knows before I know what they're going through. Um, but sometimes the team doesn't know what they're going through and, you know, let's, let's give it a week. Let's see if it settles down. If this is still going on. Uh, let's, let's reevaluate and then after that X amount of time, whether it's two days, three days a week, you don't want to let drag on forever, right? Uh, but say, say we give him a week and at that week, maybe just sit him down and very gently say, how are you, you know, asking the questions, how are you doing? Are things settling down in the house? Uh, how can I help? Um, just so you know, it is affecting the team and this is how it's affecting the team and what can we do to, to help you during this time? So, I don't know, something like that. Yeah, yeah, I think that's that idea of saying, Hey, we're with you, but the way you're acting is impacting the team. That's a curious and an interesting thing. I'd like to kind of dive into a little more because and I'm probably similar to you. I'm kind of figuring this out. I'm asking these questions as they're popping into my head here. I'm not sure, but we don't want to overload, right? If they're already having a difficult time, we don't want to overload them and say, Hey, did you know the way you're acting is really tough on the team? And they kind of need to know that at the same time, right? So is that, so, so I like what you said about waiting, waiting and giving them time to see if it gets better. Do we offer them? Do we offer them? And it's hard because I feel like so much of this would be dependent on circumstances, but it almost seems like we could say, hey, do you need to take a week off? Do you need like a week long vacation? Is that, is that okay to do instead of like, in lieu of firing them or something like that? Yeah, I agree with that for sure. I think giving them the space that they need to deal with whatever it is personally. Um, if we can give them that time, that would probably help get through some of this stuff. Um, you know, remind them that there is employee assistance programs out there and they're, and a lot of industries have that, right? Absolutely. Where they can go get some, some help. If they want to talk to somebody totally off the record and off the realm of their employers, um, where they can just go, so, so make sure they have those resources available to them and are aware of those resources and help them take advantage of them. If it's something they want to pursue. Yeah. Yeah. Because ultimately they have to come back. It's, it's this again, I think it's just this so many dichotomies in business where we have to show up as our full selves because if we leave part of us at home, we're not going to be as effective like we can't stop being hurt right at work because for whatever reason, and we still need to be at work and be productive. We still need to be able to, you know, almost kind of set that aside and say, yes, that sucks. And here we are. So how do we give them what they need to get to that place? Right. That's, that's kind of like what we're trying to do. Correct. For some of these things, right. Yeah. Is, is it is different. So I guess the question would be, how different would that line be for a teammate or a family member or a friend compared to say a guest or a patient that you've got or a client that you have How is that different? If someone's showing up in a less than ideal way? I think from a team standpoint, we, we all want to think we have each other's backs, right, and give them the grace. Um, and at some point you're right. I have no idea what point this becomes. Uh, it can't go on and the team can't absorb that, that. This may not be happening, right? But that abuse, that neglect, and it's not intentional abuse. It may just be that I'm much shorter. I mean, I know when I'm stressed or I'm on call, I've got meetings, I've got patients in clinic. I've got something in the ER trying to add on a case in the OR. It's not intentional, but I get short with my medical assistant, right? I mean, I've got so many things going on and I'm trying to juggle 15 balls and try to get to somewhere else on time and finish something else. Yeah. Um, that it has an effect on those around me unintentionally. And, and I'm, and I'm a, I'm pretty good at looking into myself and knowing that. Um, and I tried to do a check in with my MA. I wasn't smart enough to do this in the beginning of my career, but towards the end to say, hey, I'm on call today. I've already got this in the ER. I know I'm going to be stressed today. I've got three meetings because my medical director stuff as well. So just have patience with me and, and, you know, we kind of do this back and forth to each other. How are you doing today? You know, what are, what are you bringing to the team today? And so, you know, this is not getting into the crucial conversation per se, but this is. How we show up for the day and how we help avoid the need for those crucial conversations by understanding how we're both able to show up today. Yeah. Yeah, I love that you just shared that. I think it's amazing how a two minute or less, it could be 30 second conversation, can preempt and prevent so much pain and interpersonal conflict. Just like you just said, Hey, I've got all this stuff going on. I'm probably going to be short. I apologize in advance. Please have grace with me. That took 10 seconds. And if you hadn't said that, well now she's like, well, what's wrong with Kim? Kim snapped at me. Am I doing something wrong? Does she not like me anymore? Um, that seems like a pretty easy, low hanging fruit of just kind of gaining self awareness of ourselves situationally. Um, am I, am I right in thinking that? Like, hey, if we just all took 10 minutes to kind of think what situations that I, do I get most stressed in, that that could really help prevent a lot of this conflict that otherwise does show up. Yes, I think that would be great, right? Yeah. Sometimes it's take three deep breaths, you know, yeah, or even one deep breath is like, okay, before I react, let me take three deep breaths. Or before I go into, I mean, this is terrible to say, but you know, some patients are harder than other patients. They take a lot of time. They take a lot of energy. Um, and when you see them on your schedule, you're like, Oh, I don't know. I've got this only 15 minute appointment. I know it's going to be 30 minutes or more. This is gonna put me behind you. So you go into the appointment all stressed already into the conversation with the patient because you know what, you know, they they're scheduled in the 15 minute follow up appointment, but they always have a lot of questions. They always have a lot of this or a lot of that. Um, and you can work yourself up, or you can just take a deep breath before you go in and that just helps. Center you and refocus you and it's the same thing if you're going to go have a conversation, right? Don't walk to the conversation just working yourself up up up up Make sure as you go into the conversation you take three deep breaths, which is going to help bring down that tension level um in yourself Um and probably help you show up a little bit better in the conversation or whatever it is that you're doing Do you have any because I imagine I imagine Based on my personal experience, um, doctors offices are often running late and you, you just kind of talked about how you've got a 15 30 minutes. Do you have a tip maybe or something that you did when you are running late and it's kind of unavoidable because you want to give the attention, you want to make sure they have all their questions answered. You don't want to be like, sorry, 15 minutes, I'm gone. Cause that's not a great way to kind of put your, your patients at ease. I'm sorry, the next. Conversation is in some ways, there's some unavoidable tension almost. Do you have tips for how we can approach those situations where it is, like, let's say I've shown up to work late or, um, you know, something like I've got into an accident and now we're going to have to pay a bill or, um, I've had 10 clients call me at once, I can't get all back to them. All of those kinds of situations, Seems similar in the, in the idea that there will be tension. How would you approach that as you're going into that conversation? Because that's not easy to approach those. No, it's not. Um, I think and sometimes so, so you're the next patient, right? And maybe this has happened to me three times already today. So now I'm 45 minutes behind schedule and you're that patient that's 45 minutes late, right? Yeah. Um, I, what I try to do is apologize first and say, sorry, some of the patients took longer and sometimes I get called to the emergency room, right? So I'm way late. But just apologize. Sorry, I'm late. I'll give you as much time as needed. I know I appreciate your time Um, i'm, sorry, you wasted your time for the 45 minutes, right? So I think just acknowledging The impact that whatever it has had had on the team or your next patient or whatever it is because everybody's time is valuable these days. We're all stretched in a million different directions. Yeah. Um, and we're all always connected, right? When I first started practicing, I had a pager and barely a cell phone a couple of years later. And, you know, we gave my MA would give me a bunch of sticky notes at the end of the day, we'd run through them and then she'd go off and do it. But now. The outcome to you in the electronic health record, and it's, you know, if you're a primary care doc, it's hours of work at the end of the day after you see patients. Um, so, and people can get a hold of me any time of the day, anywhere I am, so. The pulls on everybody are so much greater, uh, but have respect for the other person's time and just apologize when, when you get there. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I'm amazed, um, at how much an apology can, can, you know, and just acknowledging something can just calm nerves. I worked in food service for a long time, and I think this is true of all service industries, of which I think in many ways being at. A doctor is one. You're serving your patients. Um, how, man, if something's gone wrong, just say, I'm sorry. Man, that, that sucks. I'm so sorry this happened. Right. How that, how much of a difference that can make. Just, just acknowledging that right off the bat. Right. And don't try to blame it on others either. Right. I mean Yeah. It's, you know, sorry, I got in a car accident. Sorry I'm running late. I got stuck on a phone conversation. Sorry. I took extra time for the last patient. Whatever it is. Sorry I'm running late. Right. Yeah. Um, it's, it's on me. Yeah. Um, but that, that apology makes a world of difference Yeah. To people. Yeah, I've, I've found people don't really care why they're like, I don't really care why. Cause it just sounds like excuses. It doesn't matter. Even if it's true, it sounds like excuses. They just want to be heard and validated, um, and then make sure it's going to be right. Hey, this is, we're starting to get towards the end of our time. Kim, I'm really enjoying this conversation. Uh, I feel like I just blinked half an hour by. Um, I'd love to jump into a lightning round, uh, of questions with you. Is that all right? Go for it. Wonderful. First question, your favorite leadership quote? My leadership quote? I have two. Can I give you two? Yep, absolutely. Simon Sinek, uh, leadership is not about being in charge, it's about taking care of those in your charge. Um, and then P. J. Fleck, who was a coach for the University of Minnesota, he said, on bad teams, nobody leads, on good teams, nobody wins. Coaches lead and on great teams, players lead. So for me, that's just about kind of bringing in the team, right? In order to move forward, we have to have input from the boots on the ground to the true leaders. Yeah, yeah, that's great. I love that. What's one underrated skill in leadership? Listening and asking questions. I guess that's two as well. Listening. I'll allow it. Your favorite author? Um, I have two there too. Simon Sinek. Yeah, I'll do it again. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll do it again. I'll wait through it. It's fine. Um, didn't have the, I don't know. I forgot about that question. Um, Didn't have the time or I didn't want to commit to it. I just, I didn't want to do it. I just wanted to avoid it. I, I'm not, I'm not willing to go there. That's, that's a, that's not an acceptable excuse in my mind. Yep. Your favorite question to ask other people. Forgot that one too. Um. Put you on the spot, Kim. Uh, quick, quick, quick, I know. Um, how are you doing today and where is it going to take to take me for the next question, I guess. I don't know. That was a bad answer. No worries. What's something you do to make sure you're always learning? Read. Read and listen to podcasts. Yeah. Do you have a favorite podcast? Um, At The Table Working Genius. Both. Yep. They're two great ones. Uh, I'll put links to those in the show note if you don't, uh, if you don't, uh, know what they are. What's a book you keep re reading? Legacy by, I think it's James Kerr. Okay. I've never heard of it. Probably read it twice, but I'm gonna read it again. Yeah. Uh, it's about the All Blacks. Oh, cool. Which, uh, you should know what the All Blacks are. I do, yeah. Those of you that don't know, it's the rugby team in New Zealand. Yeah, we, we, uh, It's about, it's about leadership in the team, and the importance of the team, and the importance of the journey, jersey. Yeah. Um. It's, it's frustrating when they beat us, I'll say that much, being from Australia. Um, what's a quality you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them? Uh, inquisitiveness. Inquisitiveness, that's a good one. We're, Your favorite way to build trust with other people? Conversations. How does gratitude impact your life? It's my number one core value. It's everywhere in my life. Of my core values, it's the first. How do you stay sharp at work? Reading, listening, and asking questions. Of which I could be much better at asking questions. Yeah, couldn't we all? Uh, what do you do to rest? Photography and hike. Which, which I don't know if you'll call this out. Kim is an amazing photographer. I, if you don't, I'm just going to say this now. I'm going to put a link to your, um, photography website in the show notes. Go check out her photos. They're, they're exceptional. Um, and then if you were going to call that out, do it again, but I'm, I'm doing it beforehand. Thank you so much. It's not always up to date. It's not really up to date right now, but thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Um, last question here, Kim, is white chocolate really chocolate? Definitely not. I like to hear that. That's good. It's not, it's not, I agree. Um, uh, thank you again so much for this podcast. I know, well, we've got a few more minutes here, Kim, uh, before we go Is there anything you're working on that you'd like to shout out? Anything, anything you, or an organization or something that's going on, anything you'd love that you'd like to shout out? No, my big, my, I'm no longer an orthopedic surgeon or a medical director. I'm still doing physician informatics work, which is teaching doctors, part of what I do anyway is teaching doctors how to use the electronic medical records, um, better. And what I want to help them do is use it to help them rather than them be a slave to the electronic health record. And my other job is, and this is where more crucial conversations comes in, uh, is as a consultant in helping the whole operative flow work better. So, from the pre op, how do we get patients ready better before surgery? How do we get them into surgery on the day of surgery on time? How do we make the OR work more efficiently? Um, during the day, that helps the team. It helps the physician's day go better. Um, but that again takes a lot of teamwork. It takes a lot of coordination. It takes the ability to have those conversations. Hey, you're not showing up on time. Dr. X. That affects the whole team and the whole day. It delays everything. Um, and then people don't show up as their best self either when you're not respecting their time. Um, they don't necessarily respect, um, your time either. So, uh, so that's what I'm working on mostly and I'm passionate about that. I'm a surgeon. The OR is where I love to work. And that's where that's our happy place. And so if I can help the OR be more efficient, uh, and a happier place for other surgeons, then I'm helping a lot more patients, uh, through the course of the day by making physicians happier. I love that. Thanks for sharing Kim. I love that. That's awesome. Uh, last thing I promise before we go. Um, if people want to get ahold of you, how can they do that? Pretty simple, kim at kimfree. com. Awesome. And I will also put that in the show notes, uh, and hopefully you'll get a lot of doctors saying help us please, because they could use your help. That'd be great. Yeah. Um, Kim, I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks so much for giving me your time. It's been, it's been a lot of fun. Um, yeah. I hope, uh, you've enjoyed it and, uh, I look forward to seeing you soon, uh, on the 27th or something at the end of the month, right? Or I know you're going to be gone on a trip. I'm leaving. I'm leaving on 31st and I'm leaving. Uh, well, next month then. And that trip is for photography in Kenya. So, Oh, cool. It'd be good. Yeah, that's awesome. It'll be good. I'll look forward to the following month. You show us all your photos. Exactly. Well, it takes me a little bit longer than that to get them all ready, but, um, I really enjoyed it too, Zach. Thanks for inviting me. Uh, and as always, I have trepidation going into these, uh, but it was, it was a pleasure and I appreciated it. Thanks. I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for having me. Yep. All right. Bye Zach. Bye. What an awesome conversation, Kim. Thank you so much for taking some time to record this episode with me. I loved it. It was awesome. Next month, I have Osin and Mukwedi joining me on the podcast. Another conversation I'm really excited about. I know I say it all the time, uh, that's because I only invite people on that I'm excited to have a conversation with. Um, I know you'll learn a lot from that conversation as well. So come back next month for that episode with Osin. Thank you all so much for joining me this month on the Enter the Danger podcast. I really appreciate you being here with me and I'm grateful for your time. If you enjoyed the podcast, I'd also appreciate it if you left a review or rated it wherever you consume your podcasts, but more than that, I'd really appreciate it if you shared the podcast with someone else. If you have any advice to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at zac, that's Z A C, at zwilcoxconsulting. com. That's also my website, zwilcoxconsulting. com, or you could call me at 559 387 6436. I also take texts if you don't like to call. Or if you just want to talk about entering the danger as well and what that means, how to implement that in a better way in your own life, please let me know. I'd love to connect and chat. I love meeting new people. I love talking about this topic of entering the danger. Thank you friends for being here again. Until next time, let's remember to choose kindness, empathy, and curiosity.