Kelly Rawlins - Co-Founder and Director of One50 Incorporated

This month, I'm joined by my friend Kelly Rawlins, Executive Director and Leadership Coach.

Brene Brown's Books: https://www.thriftbooks.com/a/bren-brown/198711/

Patrick Lencioni's Books: https://www.thriftbooks.com/a/patrick-lencioni/198304/

Dare to Lead Podcast by Brene Brown: https://open.spotify.com/show/3oEPsPKDhPVoNNL7pH5db6?si=a3f8886b45714406

At the Table with Patrick Lencioni: https://open.spotify.com/show/6NWAZzkzl4ljxX7S2xkHvu?si=cfa7371b7b3c417a

Diary of a CEO: https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX?si=2d34b5b0ff3b48b2

Kelly's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelly-rawlins-0345a5291/

Raw Coaching: https://www.linkedin.com/company/raw-coaching-with-kel/posts/?feedView=all

Transcript

0:12

Hello, friends, my name is Zach, and welcome to the Enter the Danger Podcast, where we have conversations to help us grow in our skill, to enter into difficult conversations with kindness, empathy, and curiosity, so that we can be more effective in our jobs and have deeper and more meaningful relationships. My guest this month is Kelly Rollins. Kelly is the co-founder and director of one 50 Incorporated, a not-for-profit, working with young people across South Australia for nearly 25 years. She's also a leadership coach and mentor, passionate about creating space for leaders to pause, reflect, and invest in their own leadership journey. Her coaching practice centers around life, leadership and mentorship, leveraging her many years of leadership experience and training in business management. Christian leadership coaching, the working genius model, and current postgraduate study in social organ and organizational culture and leadership. I love this conversation with Kelly. Not only is she from Australia, my homeland, uh, but she's incredibly wise and incredibly generous with her wisdom. Let's jump straight into it. Hi Kelly. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today. No worries. Thank you so much for having me. I'm actually super excited. Yeah, awesome. I love it. Me too, me too. Hey, I'm gonna jump straight into these questions here if that's good to Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it. Awesome. First one, what's one event that affects how you enter the danger with others? So this is a really hard question. I, um, have so many events that I can think of that, um, have. Affected the way I show up in hard conversations now. Mm-hmm. Um, so the short answer is lots of events. Uh, uh, the, the reason I, um, into hard conversations the way I do, and I mean, there are two or three that stick out in my mind. Um, but I think it's more, um, the lessons or. Yeah, just those sort of lessons that come from those hard conversations or the way I remember people feeling or the way I felt. You know, those kind of crucible moments where you're just thinking, ah, okay, I get that now, or I see that now. Um, so yeah, there's some, probably to answer your question, there's probably been more, so some significant lessons for me. Yeah. Um, when it comes to now entering those hard conversations. Entering the danger though. Yeah. Yeah, and I think a few of them that really shape how it works for me now is that I feel like relationship and connection and trust is really key in when you're entering a hard conversation with someone. I think that's everything. Um, for me and my leadership posture and the way I approach leadership in general is very much relationship based. Um. And, you know, beginning potentially with a care conversation first. And you know, people just need to feel valued and safe and heard. And I think that for me has been probably the biggest lessons over the many years I've been leading and having to have, have hard conversations. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that's probably the biggest lesson for me along with, you know, I really learned to go towards the mess. Yeah. Um, as someone who doesn't love conflict or. Feeling uncomfortable or making other people feel uncomfortable in particular, um, going, learning that it's actually really unhelpful if you avoid Yeah. Hard conversations. Yeah. Uh, really unhelpful. Um, so yeah, just that's been a, something that I've grown a lot in, especially in the sort of the later years in my leadership journey is like, yep, it's actually really important to go towards the mess and not run away from it. Um, it's not always, you know. It's scary. It's not where he is. He is done really well. But I think the opposite, you know, the alternative is just really unhelpful. So I think creating a culture where hard conversations, um, can happen is really important to me. Yeah. Um, with my team and, and the people I lead. And just to be real as well is the other things that I reckon has been the biggest lesson for me over the years. I think I, you know, there's a few experiences in my early leadership. I. Where it was just, you know, everything's fine. Yep. Everything's good. Like that almost that, I just remember getting quite just sick of that positivity when it's like, this isn't actually reality. Like it's not all fine. Yeah. So let's just be real about it and be okay with, you know, going there. And yeah, I just think that the toxic positivity. Everything's great. Um, is just something that I'm probably just more adverse to now as well. Like I'm really conscious of, of that. So, so yeah, that's probably, um, where I reflect on most is those spaces in those things. Yeah. Yeah. Great. What's the struggle, Kelly, that you have when it comes to entering the danger yourself? Hmm. Yes. Um, this was an easy question. I think it's the uncomfortableness Yeah. Is still a real struggle for me. I am, uh, as mentioned, don't love conflict. Don't, you know, don't wanna be that person that is making a situation uncomfortable or someone feel uncomfortable. Yeah. Um, so that is definitely the biggest hurdle. Um, and like I've grown a lot in being able to hold that space better. Um, being able to hold that space and. You know, it puts things in that space like trust and connection and relationship and um, you know, even words that help that space support that uncomfortable space. Um, but it's still a struggle. And I think when I think about it, I think it's because it's really, it's comes from that fear of, um, you know, being that person that. Um, someone leave a conversation feeling like condemned or not worthy or, um, that, you know, the fear of, am I gonna be playing a part in them leaving, or Yeah. You know, tipping them over the edge in some way, shape, or form. Um, or my, I just don't, I, you know, my heart is, I don't want people to feel less than. Um, and you know, especially with maybe younger, younger people or younger team members and having a hard conversation. I think that's, um, something I'm very conscious of. Yeah. Really about building them up and hard conversations. I don't want them, I. I don't want that to be, I'm now tearing you down moment. Um, I'm actually trying to help you here. Yeah. We're actually trying to, we're actually trying to, um, this is a growth moment. Um, yeah. And I think that's, that's the key thing. I think it's coming to realize, um, in my experience, um, it's actually doing a disservice to people if, um, the hard conversation doesn't happen sometimes. And I think, yeah. So that rumble of, ugh. This isn't gonna be necessarily a fun thing, but I know it's necessary. But, oh gosh, I just, I pray and hope that this person doesn't leave feeling like, um, they're a bad person, essentially. Yeah. Um, yeah. So that's, that's probably my biggest struggle that I just have to, um, yeah. Go through every time. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds so, um, it also sounds a little bit like you've kind of already given some of the answers to this last question about how do you still have. The necessary conversations despite that when you're talking about, you know, I love how you, you said rumble. Um, is there anything else that, that may be specific that you want to add in there? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, the, I, I use those, I like when you take the emotion out of it and you kind of look at, okay, usually if there's a hard conversation, there needs to happen. With someone, there's usually someone somewhere else or a place or a team that is hurting or being impacted negatively. So, you know, just having that understanding that, okay, there is a hard conversation, needs to happen. Um, you know, being kind is clear. This is actually gonna help. Grow someone, this is gonna help, um, you know, challenge them in different ways. Um, you know, having that, those understandings of the realities of what's going on really becomes the motivating factor for me, I think. Um, yeah.'cause it's in those moments, like I just, because I probably, I've had a lot of practice with it personally. And leading for, you know, sort of 25 plus years, um, in, you know, many teams on many different levels, you know, from being a team leader to a director to, you know, on the ground. Like I feel like I've really stepped and treaded in all the different places. Yeah. And. Really can really, truly say that it's those moments, it's those things when we don't get it right, it's those things when we need to have the hard conversations and be challenged. That's where the gold is. Like that's those moments is where we become better leaders and be, get it, become better people. Yeah. Uh, or become better teams or an organization becomes better and you know, it's not always comfortable and it's not always fun, but, um. That's where the growth happens. So it's just having, that's my sort of motivating factor, I think is not, is having an understanding of those things. So yeah, it really takes out the, oh, I just, I'll just avoid it and I'll, I'll just, it's too hard and it's gonna take a lot of emotional energy. So it's kind of become a bit insignificant compared to the, the outcome that is there. The potential of that. Yeah. Yeah. That moment. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Kayla, you said just at the start of that, that that being clear is being kind. How, how is a lack of clarity unkind, and what does that look like? Hmm. Well, it's definitely something that's happened a lot for me. Like I, I remember some of the events that I think about, like some of the hard conversations and. You know, um, trying to, you know, fluff it up or make it seem not as bad or, you know, beat around the bush or avoid that direct, this is, this is a situation here. What are we, what are we gonna do about it together? Yeah. Because of that fear of not wanting people to feel condemned or you know, that they're not a good enough leader or a good enough worker or staff member or whatever it might be. Um. It's just, it actually, in my experience, it actually makes the situation worse and it makes the, the next conversation that you're gonna have to have harder. Yeah. And, um, yeah, and, and to be honest, probably the worst part for me is that person probably, like in my experience, Lee, feeling fairly confused. Nothing really happens because I've just, you know, coated it over and it's, oh, it's all good, but hey, just, you know, next time maybe think about this. Or like, you know, there's, yeah, there's not the clarity needed to go, alright, this is what's gonna be the thing that needs to happen now to make it better. Or this is how we're gonna address this, or whatever situation might be. Yeah. So I think, yeah, plenty of experiences where I, you know, really chickened out of a hard conversation and, you know, it's become very. Unclear. Yeah. And the result has not, has not been great. Yep. Is there, is there, um, if it's not always easy to know, like, I guess if, if I'm having, if I'm the one initiating that tough conference conversation, is there work that I need to do first to make sure that I have clarity? Can I, or can I go and say, Hey, I'm frustrated with you. Is that enough or is that still pretty? Unclear about what it is that I'm actually seeing. I think it's, yeah. One of the things that I do, if the situation comes up and I need to have a hard conversation, one of the first things I do is seek to understand everything. Yeah. Um, because I think, yeah, I never really enter in a conversation saying, Hey, this is what's happened. How, what are we gonna do about it? Uh, it's, for me, it's more, Hey, can you talk to me about what's happened here? Let me, let me understand what's going on. Yeah. Um, you know, it's almost like I need to have that clarity before I can then help give a clear, clear and kind conversation or Yeah. Directional guidance in a situation. Does that answer your question? Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. So in essence, even sometimes, even if we think we might. Know what the issue is to lead with curiosity, because maybe what we think the issue is isn't actually the issue. Mm, a hundred percent. That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How, how, how can that affect morale? If we don't, if we don't lead with curiosity and we just go in with those assumptions, is that, can that be a, a, a, a morale killer? How, how would that affect the team if we just show up like that? Hmm. Yeah, great question. I, it's the leadership approach that I have is very much leading with curiosity and seeking to understand and, um, trying to do it all in care, care and love as well. Yeah. So I'm, I, I have not had, well, at least I don't think I have had many. Situations where I've had to kind of come in and say, Hey, this, you know, what's going on here? This is a good, and sort of do that top down like, you know, I'm your, I'm your lineup. You need to change, or this needs to be better. I'm, it's not really something I have a lot of experience in. Yeah. Um, but I can, I, I can recall, um, you know, through my, a lot of my, the work I do is leadership coaching. You know, there'll be lots of situations that my coaching. Ing clients bring to me with, with that sort of, um, situation. And I think that it's, it's a real, uh, it's, it's a real joy killer I think as well. Like, you know, if, if you're someone who's at work and, and you're trying to find joy and fulfillment in the work you're doing, and you feel like you haven't been understood, or you feel like someone's come in and, and just come, come in with a, with a hard conversation with that. Valuing or caring for, for your part in this, or whatever it might be? I think it can be a real ular in the sense of, um, yeah, I'm just not feeling valued. I'm not feeling like I've got a voice here. And yeah, I, I'd like to think that, um, the way I lead that, that that's, there's no opportunity for that. And, you know, to create a co culture where people can feel like they can have a hard conversation with me back is really important. So. If I've missed something or if I've done something that someone else isn't happy with, like, my hope would be that my team would feel comfortable coming to me and saying, Hey Kel, I'm not sure what's going on here. Can you help me understand why this directive was given or this was done? Yeah. And that, yeah, I will be able to have that, that same response. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. How, how, um, you said something that I, that I thought was really good that it, that it is a joy killer. If we do that, what would that look like? Let's say in a family setting, right? Where it's, it's it's, they're not showing up to work. What would the equivalent, is it still like, am I still gonna kill joy? What, what am I gonna kill in that kind of a situation when maybe it's with my 7-year-old who has done the wrong thing and I don't lead with curiosity, but I just go in Accusatorily? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Yeah, I am not sure. I mean, I, I do, I have had a 7-year-old, they're older now. I'm just casting my mind back to maybe a situation where, um, yeah, I think, I think when you're in a family situation, especially talking with about younger children, I think, you know, there's not the, the maturity or even the cognitive, you know, sort of, um. Maturity to understand that that's not safe or Yeah. You know, that's, don't, don't climb on the cubby house roof. That won't end well. Yeah. Um, you know, it might be a joy killer to them. Yeah. But, you know, they don't have the understanding like that. Well, that's because that's unsafe and they're not meant to yet at seven years old baby. I know, right? Uh, but yeah, so I think, I think, you know, I, I guess what that highlights to me is that. You know, there, there does need to be some sort of maturity and understanding of what's going on for someone to be able to come into that conversation. And, um, yeah, the, yeah, being a joy killer I think is, um, isn't always, I don't think it's ever an intentional thing and I wonder if it is something that comes in and you have to be like, this is not okay. Potentially. There's a really, really good reason. Yeah. They're not safe or, you know, crisis situation. Um, you know, depending on, on what the situation might be. Could be unsafe. It could be, um, yeah, could be like, uh, something just happens to happen really quick right now. Yeah. This is what we need to do, so let's, let's, this is what it's gonna get done. But I mean, you'd hope that there would be a trust in that leader to be able to say, okay, well I trust that you've got, you've got our best interest at heart still, and. You know, you, you're doing this for a very good reason, so I am gonna trust that. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I would imagine that there still has to be clarity in those moments. It just might come after the fact. Am I on the right track there? Yeah, yeah. I would, I would hope so too. Yep. Absolutely. I think the, I can't, um, can't really imagine. I can't imagine having to, I I'm just casting my mind back. For example, the COVID-19 pandemic, you know, um, as, uh, an organization, many organizations during that time, there was like quick changes and quick things and, you know, people in place and people in places where things just had to be covered and, you know, sort through, like there was, it was chaos. And so, yeah, I can, I recall being on. Online with my team, and we are just like, this is what we're gonna do. This is, this is how we're gonna do it, da da da dah. And it's then becomes something where if something has happened, the moment we'll go and do it. But then there's always a follow up meeting or a follow up, you know? Yeah. Like, this is, this is, this is what we are doing, guys, where it's the constant communication, um, and this is why we are doing it. Yeah. So, yeah. I, I would hope to think that, that that's the case. Yep. If it had to come to that. Yep. Yeah. I, um, I wanna go back to something you said earlier, Kelly, when, when you were talking about holding space. Um, I'm, I'm curious when you, when you were talking about holding space for conversations, how do we start that process and how do we fill that space? As you were saying, if I'm remembering right with trust and vulnerability, what, what's the first, you know, maybe one, two, or three steps that we have to, to take? Can you say more about that? Yeah, absolutely. Um, uh, I, I think it depends maybe in what context it's in, but in my context, the holding space for my team definitely starts with the culture that we have. So we have a very, um, we value highly, um, time to listen to each other. Um. So my first step always with someone is to take them out for coffee and just hear about them. Yeah. Um, not, not the things they do but them, um, you know, not the things they do at work, but you know who they are and, you know, what brings them joy and their context. Um, potentially, you know, the things that are going on for them that might impact, um, the way they show up and the way they do things. So that is certainly my step one. Yep. And from there, it's. It is that maintaining that relationship. Um, and I think that just involves more coffee, honestly. Yes. And just more time. But you know, we, we do, we do have a culture where it, we value those times. You know, for some organizations might look in and go, oh, there is so many, so many unproductive hours going on here from walks to the coffee shop. Yeah. Um, you know, and sitting and chatting, um. You know, fluffing around a bit, but it's, it's those moments that bring connection and it's those moments that bring understanding and even the incidental conversations, um, in those moments are super helpful when it comes to knowing how to work with your team and what the needs are and what the resources gaps are. Um, so those are, that, that culture is, is really important. Um, and I think as far as, um. An ongoing thing and it's not necessarily a tick box thing either. I think it is having that intentionality around it and understanding that it takes time. Like it's not just a, ah, I'm just gonna schedule a 20 minute chat with you every fortnight or month and tick a box. It's actually, and it has to be a little bit organic as well, so you know when there's situations that are coming up. Alright, let's, let's grab a coffee, let's talk about it. Let's troubleshoot it. Let, let me coach you through how you might come out of this, um, or work through this. So there's just, yeah. That real intentionality and being okay with it, taking up time. Yeah. Um, would be, I. I just have, and I, and I do, I carve that out in my week. I have a whole day in my week where I go into the office and I don't take my computer in. I just, I'm with people. Yeah. I just, it's conversations. More and more conversations, more and more conversations. Um. And yeah, sometimes I sit there twiddling my thumbs, and then I'll just go and find someone to have a conversation with. Yeah. And that's, they're the most richest, you know, richest times and where innovation happens and creativity happens and Yeah. Um, yeah, people are feeling, you know, you know, we nighting passion and, um, ideas, so I find that really important. Yeah. Yeah. Does, does listening impact. Success of entering the danger? Or is it, or is that just a cultural issue? Like how, how, how would, how important is listening kind of overall, I guess, and and then how important is it just in, in your, like would it be different in a different organization? Well, first and foremost, I think listening. I think it's, there's a difference between listening and act and hearing. Yeah. Like I'm listening to you, but I, but I hear you. Is I think is, is different. Um, so, uh, to answer your question, I think hearing is like yeah. To be able to. Like you said, sort of lead with that curiosity and, and listen and hear, um, you know, listen for the, what they're saying verbally, but also hearing what they're not saying. Yeah. As well. I think that's really important. And you know, I think for some organization, and that's my context, that's like we're a, a non-for-profit that works with young people. Um, and I have many young leaders, um, in my teams and so. For that generation in particular, like they need to be heard and they need to of. Sort of growing to do and as we all do, but I think, you know, they're more in their sort of formative years and, and early leadership journey. So it becomes more important, it may be in my context, as opposed to other organizations that might, um, have a different, um, cause or vision, um, and, and way they, they need to work. But I still think that listening and hearing is important in any, any team, any place, any leadership. Yeah. Situation. And so your goal, your goal in, in listening, if I'm hearing you right, is to, to understand their perspective. Is that right or or is it something else? Oh, a hundred percent. It's, it's to understand, it's to seek to understand as much as we possibly can. Um, it's to hear perspective, it's to hear, it's to hear lens and the more you listen and ask questions, and the more you hear and ask more. Sort of nuanced questions. The, the more is revealed. Yeah. And things that, you know, you might be talking about, um, a, uh, an administration problem. And then in, by the end of a 15, 20 minute chat, you're actually talking about, um, a, you know, a situation where this person or this worker or team member is feeling really overwhelmed and stressed because other things that are going on around that, you are unaware. I think it's, yeah, it's huge. It's huge. It's that it's, it's, it's, you learn so much by listening, talking, and listening with people. And if you have that relationship and that connection and that trust and that safety with someone, they're going to be more willing to, to say the things that they might be scared or fearful saying to a boss who maybe didn't value Yeah. That curiosity and that list. Yeah. And, and it sounds, if I'm hearing you too, it sounds like. The more we ask these questions and the more we're seeking to understand them, the greater empathy we're going to be able to have. Am I, am I on the right track there? Absolutely. Empathy is very important. Uh, especially, you know, these days where there, there are so many pressures and um, so many stresses for people and families. I think that the empathy, having that humanness, I think is what. Um, is key there. It's like yeah. You know, being real with each other and, and having empathy for the situations that are going on for them and, um, having empathy for yourself in those situations as well. Yeah, I think it, you know, you, you reflect and roll, you mirror, mirror that and role model that so much. Yeah. Without realizing sometimes I think, um, so that, yeah, I really value that. Yep. In a, in a working relationship, how, how do you. How, how do you use empathy to help make change that has to happen? Let's suppose I'm gonna make up an example here. Let, let's suppose that one of your team comes in, um, and they say, you know, Kelly, and they give some really good reasons, and you ask questions and you understand. They say, I really just only wanna work five hours a day instead of eight. That's just kind of where I'm from. Yeah. How, how do you use empathy then to say, I hear you, that's not all right, we have to work eight As as an example. How, how do you make that when it's, when they might, they might be in some ways, you know, almost diametrically opposed to, to what you need? Mm, yeah. Great question. Um, I think you can have empathy and accountability or responsibility at the same time. I don't think it's one or the other. Yeah, I think there is. Um, so to answer your, the question around the situation you just gave an example of it would be, let me hear about what's going on for you.'cause potentially there's things that can shift and change to help them feel like they can achieve what they need to achieve. So help me understand what's going on for you. Is there things do to support you? Um, understand that that's what you are hoping would happen. Um, this is the reality for us. So together, how can we make this work for both parties? That's a very, you know, that's not how it would be said, but it essentially that, that's, that's the goal, isn't it? It's like, I wanna care for you. Yeah. But we also have a responsibility and accountability to do it this way, because this is what, what it is. Yeah. So how can, how can we get, how can we get there? How can we, how can we make, make both win? How can we, yeah. What does it look like to honor both things here? Um, you know, but. I also believe just through those care conversations and having those curiosity questions and asking, asking the why behind that, why five hours, what, you know, what's, what's going on for you there? Yeah. Um, you know, and, and being vulnerable enough as a leader to go, what, what are we not seeing? Like, what's going on for you? Eight hours is making it really hard for you. Like we have to, as leaders, um, be able to use it as a, you know, a review moment as well. Okay. Could we be doing things different and better? Let's talk about that. Help me, help me to understand what it should look like for you. Um, because in my context anyway, they, they all talk and, you know, they like team members talk and, and have, have a culture, a subculture of their own. Yeah. And behavior norms and stuff where they, they, they kind of, um, yeah, they kind of the culture makers too. So you wanna, you wanna work with them, you wanna work with, with each other to help provide an environment, a space where it, it's a win for people, you know? Yeah. It doesn't have to be a win-lose. It can, it can be a win-win. Yeah. So, yeah. Life is not a zero sum game. That's right. Yeah, that's right. I'm also hearing you, I think this is, I think this is really powerful what you've, what you've just said. I think it's really good because that could be applied if I'm hearing you as well, to pretty much any situation. You know, someone comes in saying, we'll use this same example, I need to work five hours. Maybe it's because they're not getting paid enough and they're having to work a second job. Or maybe it's'cause. Right. Their grandma's sick and they have to take care of their grandma. Or maybe it's'cause they've gone back to school and they, they're overwhelmed with school. And that's what we're trying to uncover with the curiosity, right? Correct. Absolutely. And potentially it's not, okay, let's negotiate your hours conversation. It's an outcome that neither people have thought of yet. That's actually gonna work just through having those convers, like seeking to understand what's the, what's really going on here. Yeah, it seems like that, that even to get to that place though, we, we have to have this assumption of positive intent. How important is that when it comes to being able to lead with curiosity? Mm, that is a really great, great question because I am notorious, um, and sometimes to my detriment. Giving people the benefit of the doubt, seeing, you know, thinking the best intent in everyone. Um, and I don't apologize for that because I think that's a really great, great way to lead. Yeah. But it has, um, it trips me up is the wrong word, probably, but I've learn to, um, you ask more questions, um, you know, learn to, uh. What, learn what it looks like to find out if you can trust someone by trusting someone and see what happens. Um, so, uh, there are def, there is definitely a, um, yeah, and, and I think that, you know, you, that discernment has to kick in a lot. You have to trust, you know, um, just your discernment in situations as well. And, um, I think at the end of the day. Hope I, I would hope to think that the relationship I have with my team and, and I do know some team members better than others'cause of proximity and, and how I work with them. So I'm not gonna pretend I know the ins and outs of every single person I work with, but I would like to think that I have enough of a relationship because that's our, that's what we value and that's the culture we have. That that would be, um, that there would just be some real honesty and transparency with that. And, and I have experienced that with team members. I'm like, you know, I wanna work five hours. Okay, why? What's going on for you? I just don't wanna be here. More than that. Like to have permission to, to actually just say how they're, what's really going on for them and how, and be very real in that, I think helps with. That knowing their, what their intent is, what their motivations is. And at the end of the day, I, I don't think you can fully ever know for sure. Yeah. And I think you just have to do your best at discerning and, you know, some, you know, taking steps of facing in some areas or, you know, waiting and pausing and just seeing what comes next in some other areas. And I think you just step and be okay to have to adjust and pivot, um, when you need, yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, I'm gonna, I've got, I've got one more kind of, kind of line of questioning I wanna take. And this is going way back to the beginning when you were talking about being real, um, and how we need to be seen as who we are. And you were, you were, you were then talking about, you know, we shouldn't, um, have toxic positivity. How does this idea of toxic positivity, if at all, impact our ability to have difficult conversations with people? Hmm. How does have toxic positivity affect how we have difficult conversations? Um, well, I think, um. My experience, there was a, was a time earlier in my leadership where we just tried to make everything positive so people would feel, um, everything was doable and everything was achievable and everything was great. Yeah. Um, and those little challenges and those things that didn't go so well and actually really impacted people. That's still okay because everything else is fantastic. Like it, that that was still good. Things came out of that. Like it was, yeah, I think it was just, um, it, it brought what I, what I think happened is it brought this, um, underpinning, I dunno if culture's the right word, but this underpinning kind of, um, vibe that, uh. We have to be so happy and be able to achieve everything and do everything in so much joy and everything that is hard and everything that is really actually impacted the way I'm feeling about my work and what I'm doing needs to be suppressed. Um.'cause I, you know, winging isn't helpful right now, or Yeah. You know, that, so that was kind of, and it wasn't intent, obviously. It wasn't intentional, everyone. Right. You know, trying to be positive and see the bright side because, you know, the work we do is hard. Like with young people, you come across some really hard things. So it's, you know, but it was a, it was avoiding and, um, just not, yeah, just not being real with each other. Yeah. Was just, once we did that, it was so, it was. We, you know, it's that collaborative like, yeah, this is really hard. This actually just, this really sucks right now, but this is how, this is how we can move forward together from here. Yeah. So it really brought that collaboration together and helped us to do things better and helped us, our programs to be better and helped us to not have so much stress, overwhelm, and burnout in our teams because we're actually addressing things and making changes and Yeah, and recognizing the challenges. To answer your question, how the impacts having hard conversations is in those moments where, okay, well this happened and this wasn't great. You know, we were able to have, um, that yeah, that culture was born. We were able to have those hard conversations about some of those things with each other and, um. It, it was about doing it together. It was a togetherness thing, not a me against you thing. Um, so I think, yeah, I feel like the toxic positivity people kind of isolate themselves and like, it's almost like I'm gonna just so solo my work because then I can just. Manage and take and take care of it. But when you actually bring everything to the surface and you collaborate and you support each other, and you do team and you do it together, I think that creates that culture where, yeah, we can actually rumble with this. We can actually go back and forth with harder conversations. Um, and, and, but we are doing it together, so it's okay. Yeah. Um, you know, it's a nice, it's an US problem, not just a you you problem. Yeah. Or a that problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. So, so if I'm hearing you right there, it's, it, um, this idea of toxic positivity when, when we have to be happy all the time, that almost inhibits the, the reason it inhibits our ability is because we, nothing can be wrong and, and something, and if we're having a difficult conversation, something has to be wrong. Am I, am I hearing you right in that was one those difficulties. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, the difficult conversations, it, it's not so much saying, well, that's because this stuff is wrong. It's more like, this stuff is hard. Yeah. Like that's kind of the, you know, this is, this is hard. Yeah. So those difficult conversations isn't about, well, let's just bring to the service everything that's wrong. Right. It's like, let's actually just bring to the service everything that's, that's hard and we need each other on. Yep. I think that's, that's probably more, more what it was for us. Yeah. Yeah. Or for me. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which can be so freeing, right? When you can say, man, this was so tough, instead of everything's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Absolutely. Hey, Kelly, I've been, I've been loving this conversation. Awesome. It's, it's awesome. I know we are running low on time. I've got a lightning round of questions I'd love to jump into if you're ready. Sure. Let's do it. Great. I'll give it my best shot. Great. It's, if, if you don't, I'll, I'll write a big F and we'll give you a fail for that. Okay. Yeah, that's all. Okay, that's fine. That's all, uh, your favorite leadership quote. Oh, oh gosh, there are so many. Um, okay. It isn't a quote as much, but, um. Something that a leader said to me once when I was a young leader, that that really impacted me as a leader and the way I lead. And they said to me, Kel, you have to be okay with somebody else's a hundred percent being your 70%. Yeah. And that for me was, um, understanding that people. Leaders are all on a journey and, and a growth journey. And we all, um, ebb and flow at different rates as far as, you know, what we are learning and what we're going through and how to rise up. You know, your team in leadership, um, is all about letting the mistakes happen, being there to support them, and being okay with that because pretty soon that 70, that what you see is 70%. They will very soon surpass your a hundred percent and do it so much better in their own beautiful way. Yeah. Than you could ever have done it. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. What's one underrated skill in leadership? Listening. Yep. Favorite listening. Go ahead. Sorry. Listening with coffee, I, I know it's not a skill, but I think it's something that gets lost in the pace of life. Yeah. And I think it's very underrated how valuable those times are. Yeah. Yep. Your favorite author? Hmm. I, I'm gonna have to say Brene Brown because I go to her books constantly. Yeah. Um. My next favorite author would probably be Pat Cheney. Yep. The most frustrating excuse someone can make for not entering the Danger. I don't have time. Mm. Your favorite question to ask other people. How are you? Yeah. How, how do you I'm gonna, this is, this is not scripted. How do you make sure that that's more than just a, how's it going? Sure. Yep. So how are you? So how are you, Zach? Yeah, yeah, I'm great. I, I'm, I'm doing great. Great. Tell me why You're great. Yeah. And so that's, that's what you do. Just say, tell me why. Yeah. Yeah. I just keep, I keep asking questions. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I'm gonna, can I steal that from you? Tell me why. Absolutely. That's brilliant. Tell me why. Yeah. Uh, back on track. All right. You're back on track now. Uh, what's something you do to make sure you're always learning? Hmm. Um, well, at the moment I'm studying, um, and if I'm not studying, I'm al I'm always looking for sort of like mini courses or mini trainings that I can be a part of. Yep. Um. Yeah, I, I do listen to a lot of, um, podcasts as well and read a lot of leadership books. So yeah, I, I actually get antsy and if, uh, if I'm not receiving because leadership to give out so much. So if I'm not receiving yeah. Um, I get would be antsy. Yep. Uh, do you have a favorite podcast? You this one? Absolutely. You can't pick yourself. You're my favorite podcast that everyone ever Absolutely. No, you can't pick, you can't pick yourself. Okay. Besides, besides entering the Danger Zone, my favorite podcast would be, um, Brene. Bre Renee's leadership podcast is something that I go back and listen to a lot, um, and at the table group and diary the CE. I will put links to all those in the show notes for anyone, uh, wanting them. Uh, what's a book that you keep rereading? Um, dare to Lead by Brene Brown. Yep. What's a quality you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them? That's a really good question. Quality, uh, uh, when you get the vibe, they're genuine. Mm, genuine, yeah. People who, who, who show up genuinely. Yeah. Yep. Your favorite way to build trust with other people? Coffee. Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's not a great answer. Um, my favorite way, way to build trust with people would be, um, sharing, like doing life with them. Sharing with them, yeah. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. I'm glad you changed your answer'cause I don't drink coffee. So basically we'd never have trust if that was the, oh look, I've got many variations that I can, I can buy you a tea, a hot chocolate. Yeah. Great. Whatever works. Uh, how does gratitude impact your life? Say that one again. How does gratitude impact your life? Yes. Um. Gratefulness, um, is something that I press into often when, especially when times are tough, um, when there's a lot of tough situations that are happening. It's, um, it, it's when I press into gratitude and it's, and it's funny because I forget to do it a lot. Yeah. But when I am with my kids and they're going through tough situations. I will always help them to find gratitude, like to press into gratitude. And that reminds me, it's just as wholesome for me as it's, it is for them. Yep, yep, yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Kids are a great teacher. They sure are. Are they? Mm-hmm. How do you stay sharp at work? Uh, getting good sleep and, um, I make sure I do, um, I exercise two or three times a week. Yep. What do you do to rest? Um, uh, it's gonna sound weird, but I go for a run. Yeah. Um, it doesn't sound weird when I run. Yeah. It, when I run, that's when my mind becomes clear and I can just be with my thoughts and I can think about. Things that I just don't have time to think of a lot. Yeah. Um, you know, whether, whether that be, you know, about time I had with my mom last week or, you know, whatever it is, I just, I just use that time to, it's real me time and connection with God time for me. Yeah. And that's, that's risk for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it doesn't sound weird at all. Uh, one of my favorite things about this question is how many, like, we have people who hike and run and who go to the gym and, you know, you name it swimming. Very few times it's actually kind of doing nothing. It's rest is not usually doing nothing Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Um, last question, Kelly. Uh, is white chocolate really chocolate? Yes. Have you ever had top deck? Do you have that over in the States? No. No. Do you remember Top Deck? I think I do remember it. That's the one where it's chocolate on the bottom and white on the top. Is that. Yeah. Yes. And it's the best chocolate ever. So a hundred percent. Yeah, its chocolate. Great, great. Awesome. Glad to hear it, Kelly. I love, I've loved this conversation so much. Before we go, two more quick things. Is there anything you're working on that you, that you would love to share? And if people want to get a hold of you, how can they do that? Absolutely. Um, so I don't have a great social media presence, but I am on LinkedIn. Um, so I have my coaching with Kel Page, um, where I share some leadership, um, insights and um, yeah, that's how people can connect with me. Um, and the thing that I'm working on at the moment is I. I'm in a bit of a transition stage at the moment where I'm doing some studying and figuring out what, what's gonna happen with that. Um, so can I put a TBC on it and let you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. If there's anything, if anything great comes outta that, that'll, that'll be my thing I'm working on. Yep, totally. I will, I'll also put a link to Kelly's, uh, LinkedIn page in the show notes. Go give her a follow. She's got, she's got good stuff in there. Uh, thank you again, Kelly, so much. I love this conversation. I look forward to the next time we catch up. Yeah. Thanks, Zach. It's been so fun, and thank you for having me and for the time that you put into everything you do. It's making the world a better place, so thank you. Oh, well thank you. I appreciate it. Bye. All right. Catch. What an awesome conversation. Kelly, thank you so much again for joining me on the podcast this month. I really appreciate your time. My guest next month is gonna be Pat Richie. Pat is a Table Group consultant. Before joining the Table group, as one of their principal consultants, he worked with the San Francisco 49 ERs and was a member of five Super Bowl teams with the 49 ERs. He also worked with the San Francisco Giants for 13 years as well. That conversation's really great, and I hope you'll come back and join me next month for that episode. Thank you all so much for joining me this month on the Enter The Danger Podcast. I really appreciate you being here with me, and I'm grateful for your time. If you enjoyed the podcast, I'd also appreciate it if you left a review or rate it wherever you consume your podcasts. But more than that, I'd really appreciate it if you shared the podcast with someone else. If you have any advice to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Zach, that's ZA c@zwilcoxconsulting.com. That's also my website, z wilcox consulting.com, or you could call me at(559) 387-6436. I also take texts if you don't like to call or if you just wanna talk about entering the danger as well and what that means, how to implement that in a better way in your own life. Please let me know. I'd love to connect and chat. I love meeting new people. I love talking about this topic of entering the danger. Thank you friends for being here again. Until next time, let's remember to choose kindness. Empathy and curiosity.