Fractional
Fractional
Julia Chesbrough: Marketing and runway for your fractional business
This week we were re-joined on the podcast by Julia Chesbrough, a subscription product designer.
We were so excited to have her come back on and dive deeper into several topics that were near and dear to each of us.
We talked about how to get started if you're completely brand new to building a fractional business, how a few LinkedIn modifications can help, the software Julia uses to run her business, how she plans out the future for her client work, and what a deep work day looks like for her.
If you're interested in learning more Julia has a monthly chat with folks interested in offering subscription design. The next one is August 12 at 10am Pacific. Message her on LinkedIn for details.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliachesbrough/
https://www.juliachesbrough.com/
Edited by Caleb http://www.embrin.com/
I'm curious, how did traffic increase or not increase, or conversations come out of the episode we did with you before?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I got a lot of love from that episode. I got a lot of people reaching out saying they were, you know, people that were in their careers, they were going to share it with their peers, their coworkers, or even people that their direct reports, they were going to share certain parts with them. So that was awesome. I mean, that just felt so great. It's very, I mean, it's just heartwarming and validating to know that you can have certain experiences and go through it and think that you're kind of the only one to go through those things. But then when you talk about it and people are like, oh my God, I can relate to that. It just puts it into perspective that most of the time, if you're feeling a certain way, chances are other people are too
SPEAKER_02:something I've started doing I had a friend yesterday he was asking me about something and I was I went to go answer him I'm like wait a minute I'm gonna write a blog post about it and link it to him and he was like over the moon just like I can't believe you did this thank you and it's one of those things of not everything should be public but a lot of stuff can be and that's okay
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah totally yeah I mean I feel like you know once you start putting your opinions online you get a lot of the same questions over and over again and so at that point if you're gonna keep getting the questions, you may as well just, yeah, make a blog post about it or talk about it on a podcast and tell more people because you probably are going to answer the same questions for all those people.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I even have. So I have my favorite smoothie. I've been asked the recipe a lot of times and now I just link people to the recipe.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Easy. Single click.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, it's funny. I posted something on threads earlier this week and I got a bunch of like, I'm sure you've never seen these people on the internet. Like you idiot. Why are you asking this question? Don't you know, you're so stupid. Do it this way.
SPEAKER_00:It's like, well,
SPEAKER_02:I'm not looking for that kind of feedback, but I guess it's still fair.
SPEAKER_00:I know, it's funny. The things people will say on the internet, I mean, it gets dark, but I thankfully haven't gotten anything too crazy, but mostly just people being like the subscription, like trying to, I don't know, call me out on the subscription model, which I don't really understand because I'm like, it's working. So I don't know what the controversy is, but it's a controversial thing to talk about. People don't seem to, it's either a love or hate thing.
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's interesting. I was... on this call. So I've got my day job, which means my capacity is limited. I can do like, when I've done more than one fractional role at a time with a day job, they suffer. Like, frankly, they don't last very long. But I can hold one, I believe. That's what my data is telling me when I track time and probably keep them happy. So that's, I just had this call and I was very open. I'm like, hey, actually, here's the... limited amount of time I have. And I called it out and he's like, whoa, thanks for being so candid. Let's work together. And on the subscription model. So that was very interesting for me because I called out like, yeah, I've been doing this for a long time. Here's my background. I currently have a day job and that's not changing anytime soon. And The right person, if they're a decision maker, sometimes they get it. They realize, oh, I see why you're doing this. You're tired of all of the crap and you just want to offer your help and you want to find a good way to be compensated for it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. A thousand percent. I feel like the people that you want to work with are the ones that understand your boundaries. And yeah, they understand that you're not there. If they wanted a full time designer, they would hire a full time designer. Right. They would give them salaries. Right. benefits, all of that, they might not have the resources for that, or they might not even have the workload for that. So you're coming along, you've got a fractional amount of time, and you're offering that and Yeah. I mean, the right person will see that and go, oh, that does fit my needs. Right. They won't try to go for the full time designer because they know that they don't have those resources or the workload. So they will try to find something that that might be less time. But I think ultimately what people really want is transparency. So you just being outright honest about that probably just quelled a lot of their own fears. And they were like, oh, great. I know what these expectations are. can have ours. So let's work together.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and I'll call it out. Lance will do the intro in a minute here, but we can run the pre-show and we can keep this in the recording. I just told him, frankly, I have five to 15 hours a week available to work. And I've found when I only do five, I lose clients. When I do... toward 15 to 20, I get burnt out and I don't want to do it anymore. So I said, the sweet spot is 10 to 15 hours a week per client. And I've rarely ever said that out loud, but I kind of was like, I've got my day job. I don't need this, but I'm interested. This seems like a really fun client. So why not just share it? And I've never done that before. So we'll see how it goes.
SPEAKER_00:That's exciting. I mean, it's all trial and error, right? It's the more that you do those calls and then more things you try out. And sometimes it's just word vomit. Like, it sounds like you were just like, I have 10 hours a week. Maybe you didn't plan on telling him that, but you did. And then he was like, oh, great. And now, you know, oh, that that actually kind of works. I'm going to try that again next time.
SPEAKER_02:That's exactly how it works. You take the feedback and you just iterate on it. I also I'm trying something and I'll see if Lance recognizes it. I'm trying to talk more slowly. I've been told by any time I've done public speaking, I talk way too fast. And so I'm trying to see like, can I slow down a little bit based on what my brain is thinking and what my words can say?
SPEAKER_01:I'm actually working on that too. So we could do it together. We'll just deep breath.
SPEAKER_03:Be okay with a pause. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Hello and welcome to episode 62 of the Fractional Podcast. We have a return guest by popular demand. Well, I don't know about demand, but popular for sure. Our most popular guest to date, Julia Chesbrough. So excited to have you back on the show. I'm here with my co-host, Joshua, and these two are probably going to nerd out on design stuff quite a bit. but we'll also keep it relevant to the fractional entrepreneurship element of the podcast as well. So excited to have you back, Julia. Thanks for joining us again. Glad to have you here.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for having me back. It's exciting. I'm glad that people are listening and liking and yeah, it felt good to hear that things are going well with the podcast and the episode did so well. Glad to be back.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's great to have you. I was re-listening today just to remember what we had talked about and what we didn't talk about. And there's a few areas I want to dive into and we'll just jump around a bit. But you started going into this and I'd love anything more. And we may not even make this interview style. We might all just chat this time since we're like old friends at this point. But I'd love any thoughts you have on someone who is looking to get into, let's say, fractional design work and get clients and they are struggling for various reasons. Yeah, just how would you approach that if you were coaching someone right now that's trying to navigate this? Maybe they have some of the head knowledge, but but they're not sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I think the first thing that I would look at that I've really pinpointed recently that I think has been really effective for me is your LinkedIn profile. And two things I would look at the first is your profile picture and how clearly it shows your face, how professional it looks. And if you have the time, if you have the resources, I would hire a photographer to do a professional photo shoot. You can do it super cheaply, or you could do a full blown photo shoot with Outfit changes. I've done that in the past. It's super fun. But that obviously requires a little bit more investment. But yeah, if you have the time and resources, I would definitely have a professional photo shoot done. And then I would also look at your tagline on your LinkedIn profile. So right under your name, let's say you go to connect with somebody and you see that little message request or that connection request and you see the name and the tagline under it. What does yours say? because what I've done is I've put in subscription product designer, UX, UI design, X, Hinge, Spotify, Glossier. People know exactly what I'm offering and who I am and who I've worked for before they even click into my LinkedIn profile. And that's extremely effective when you start really utilizing LinkedIn to connect with CEOs and founders and projects that you're excited about that you want to work with. They get to see that message request and they get to decide. I mean, they have such a limited amount of time. They probably get 10 of these requests a day. So they get to look at your request and right away know, okay, this person is a professional. I know what they're offering. And now I want to go click into their profile and see more and look at their resume and see their portfolio and all that. But oftentimes, if you fail that first gut check, they're not even going to have the time to look further. They're not going to have the interest. So I would start with the LinkedIn profile.
SPEAKER_02:And that's something I know Lance, we've had conversations about, right? Where he has this fantastic mustache, way better than what I could pull off. And that along with having a significant other who's a professional photographer, like mail that right check. Like he's got the great photos.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Yep. Yeah. And it's funny because I do see every now and then I'll see an art director or an artist that has a really unique photo and maybe it doesn't follow the classic professional headshot. Maybe it's a dimly lit, you know, they're wearing some interesting makeup or there's just something unique about it. And I'm not here to cramp anyone's creativity. I think that's awesome. If you can pull it off and it fits your brand, go for it. It's just really hard to pull that off. So I lean more towards just the classic professionalism because I have found that's more of a guarantee. If you're artsier though, you know, go for it. Like it should just fit your brand and it should represent your personality.
SPEAKER_03:And it might matter who you're selling to as well, right? Like if you're selling to Fortune 500 corporate offices, you probably want that traditional suit and tie, you know, the professional professionalism. But if you're selling to like creative agencies, then yeah, maybe something a little wild, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one of my favorites are illustrators that do really bright, poppy, colorful illustrations. Oftentimes their LinkedIn portfolio picture will be them in a bright, colorful shirt or something like that that matches their illustration style. So I love those types of personal brands that you can just see in that really quick tagline and picture. You can just see so much from that.
SPEAKER_03:The personal brand rabbit hole is one that I love to go down. Joshua, you and I were at the hotel in Austin at Cloudfest last year. I love telling this story. And our mutual friend who I had never met, and maybe you had not yet met at that point either, Jason walks in the door and immediately looks at me and he says, I know you. I'd recognize that mustache anywhere.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, he'd been following me on LinkedIn. I had no idea. That's amazing. And Joshua, kudos to Joshua. He helped me design my logo, which also includes the mustache. But they're just like, what are the things that just make it a little bit unforgettable? And to
SPEAKER_02:clarify, it was a logo Lance was working on. All I said was take that mustache and make it 2X bigger. So I just literally stretched it out. I'm just showing my fingers.
SPEAKER_01:That's incredible. It makes so much sense. The mustache is fabulous. You got to capitalize on it. It
SPEAKER_03:works. I get people a lot of the times, they know me from LinkedIn because they've seen this and I've never met them before.
SPEAKER_01:That's a cool feeling. It's wild.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's great. I'm working on figuring out my brand because I have very long hair. It's growing faster. And I don't know what to do with it most of the time. And that's not my headshot on LinkedIn at all. So that's kind of something I'm trying to figure out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you could definitely lean into that. That'd be fun.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I could. One thing as just a follow up to that question. Are you at the stage right now where you're offering coaching, where you're getting into that? I got a hint of that from last time we talked. But yeah, if there's someone who's like, actually, can you help me? Is that something you're doing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right now I am charging$100 for 30-minute chats. And I ask people to fill out a brief form before we book the call and just list out their questions so that I know exactly how I can best help them. And then we use that 30 minutes just going over everything they want to know. I'm very much an open book. Obviously, I can't share a personal project or client project related stuff. But anything about subscription design, anything about how I bill people or the tools that I use, I'm definitely having those chats and it's starting to pick up, which is really exciting because people are very interested in the subscription model. And I'm more than happy to share. When I first started, if I had somebody that I could reach out to to chat about this, I definitely would have done it. So I'm happy to be able to offer that to people.
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's interesting too, because you can give away most of that for free through podcasts and writing. And there's a subset of people that they absolutely love that. But then for some people, they just want it personally applied to them, not because they don't understand intellectually. It's because they want to feel it emotionally from having that connection. And that's where both are fantastic to offer, right? Where Lance and I have talked about this. He doesn't like to pay for software. I pay for all kinds of software, which is probably my downfall. And he's like, well, I'll figure it out for free. And at some point it's worth paying for other times. It's totally fine just to like browse the Internet till you learn it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I actually discovered that firsthand because I started doing once a month. I do big group projects. calls for free. And I've done two so far. And the last one is August. I'll pull up the date in a second if people are interested in joining. We'll
SPEAKER_02:put that in the show notes. And yeah, what's kind of, how's it gone? What's kind of the purpose of it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So what you just said about people wanting to learn things for free versus wanting to invest a little bit more, maybe money or time to get that personalization. So what I realized was with the first group Yeah, absolutely. I did offer an entire day where I was going to do free 30-minute chats, one-on-ones with people, and it got booked up instantly, and only half the people showed up. So I ended up booking an entire day out and showing up to these meetings, and only half of them showed up. I emailed them after, hey, you know, I followed up and basically was like, sorry, I missed you. I just want to let you know you did take a spot away from other people that could have really used this time. And of course, I got All these excuses back, which is fine. Things come up. It was disappointing for me, but it was also a lesson for me that I probably shouldn't be offering these things for free because it's a lot of my time. And that was an entire day that I took the people that did show up. I want to acknowledge that because I think that they got a lot of value out of it. I got a lot of value out of sharing these experiences. So that was a positive experience overall for me. It was super fun. But it was a lesson that, you know, this is my time as well as my expertise. So I should probably be charging for the one-on-ones. The group chats, totally fine for two people to show up versus 50. I mean, I'm going to do it either way. So that's fine. That's free. But the one-on-ones, that's where I really learned my lesson on, you know what, I think I could probably charge for that.
SPEAKER_02:You know, with user testing, we've done, it's called moderated user testing. And you're very familiar with that, where you bring someone on, you show them your software, and you get their feedback. I'd actually say half is not bad, because so many times you get no shows. But you're right. You're not doing that for user research. You're basically just freely offering to help people. And it just feels like that's not quite where you want it to be at. I love that distinction of one-on-one, I'm going to charge. It's an amount that if you're going to build a career out of this, it's not insurmountable. It's not a massive amount. But if you want, just pop in once a month and you can hear it as well on a group stage. I really like that way of thinking about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think it's more accessible, right? There are people that have just begun. They don't have the resources to put$100 down for 30 minutes. Maybe that sounds ridiculous to them. I get that. You know, I've definitely been in that place before where I didn't have the resources. So offering something for free makes a lot of sense. And then there's other people that are they have the resources. They want to invest more in a personalized experience and they want to ask direct questions. And I know how valuable that would have been when I was first starting because I had no idea what I was doing. So, you know, I think that's also valuable for them as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's interesting. The longer you do something, the more you realize there's so many little pieces Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, actually, that reminds me when I first started doing the subscription model and offering, you know, freelance design and things like that. I didn't know even the tools to use. Like you just said, what software do you use? So what I ended up doing was there is a branding designer that I love. I'm obsessed with her, Quixotic Design. She is a fantastic branding designer and I was gonna work with her. The timeline didn't quite work out, but she's super sweet. I ended up having an intro call with her and I went through the whole flow thinking I was gonna book with her, ended up not, but I realized that she uses a software called Dubsado. So then I was able to go through the whole flow, the whole booking flow of what it would be to hire her as a freelancer, freelance designer. And I got to kind of be on the other side of it and it was such a seamless flow I just learned something new myself, so I pulled it up
SPEAKER_02:real quickly. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Just do you use a spreadsheet? Do you like, well, how does this happen? Google form? I also, I just want to say my wife was, she was doing something. with software recently. And I had this positive moment of, I probably will never fully lose a job because software is so ridiculous. You'll be like, why is this not working? My initial reaction is to say, she's doing something wrong. She was not. The software was just not doing what it should have. It's like, all right, sweet. Well, like there's more work for us.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, bugs mean jobs.
SPEAKER_02:They do. Something I want to touch on a little bit more, you talked last time about the motivation to continue what you're doing. You talked about taking care of your health and just making sure that you're not getting burned out wrestling with where vacations fit into this. If you have someone who maybe has been doing this for a shorter period of time and is feeling so worn out and stressed, how do you approach that motivation to continue to just keep going or maybe wrap it up and decide it's time to be done?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a really good question. I've definitely had highs and lows during this process. Something that always helps me is to think back on specific times in my life before I went freelance, where I was really, really down and what I was going through then. Oftentimes, it was probably work-related stress in a different way. It was being in a meeting that after the fourth meet, you know, the fourth meeting of the day where I had a project due the next day, but I hadn't had any time that week to design anything. And I knew that I was going to have to deliver this design the next day. And just that kind of stress and feeling like I was so powerless over my own schedule, feeling like I had to, well, having to go to an office every day. I had a love hate relationship with that. I loved my coworkers when I did go to an office, but I didn't love not having the autonomy to work wherever And so I just really think back in those moments and I take a second. Sometimes I close my eyes and I just go there and I try to remember as best as I can, literally how I was feeling, like almost time traveling. And that helps me a lot because then I come back to right now and I look around at the luxury of being able to live this life that I've created for myself. And then in that moment, the stress that I'm going through feels not so bad.
SPEAKER_02:We've talked in the past, it's a term called the hedonic treadmill, which is no matter how good or bad things are, you adjust and you say, this is normal for me. And to do that mental exercise, to look back at a worse or better time can help you to relatively see how it feels now. And That is so true. They're the best times of my life. If they lasted long enough, I would either get bored or frustrated or find myself wanting a change. And maybe that's just because of the way my brain works. But how often do you find yourself having to do that? Do you feel like on a regular basis you're struggling to continue or is this a more rare thing you have to think through?
SPEAKER_00:Personally, it's been rare, uh, For me lately, I'm in a really good spot in my life and in my career. So I don't have to do that very often. But I fluctuate with my emotions. You know, I'm a human being. I'm also a woman. So, you know, you never know how you're going to feel when you wake up some days. And when I do have those days, I allow myself to just feel sad too sometimes. You know, there's a lot that's gained from a remote world. life, from owning your own business. But I would be, you know, I would be... How do I phrase this? It would be a disservice for me to pretend like there's not also loss because I don't have coworkers and I don't go to an office anymore. I don't really have a community like that. So there are days I wake up and it is lonely. And that's when I realize, okay, maybe today I do just sit in bed and work from my bed and I'm just sad today. And that's fine. Maybe today I'm going to push myself and I'm going to go to a coffee shop and I'm going to have a conversation with the barista because I haven't spoken to anyone in two days. Yeah. You know, like you kind of got to balance these things. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's interesting. I remember when I was full-time fractional, I was just starving for another human to talk to about my designs, just to interact, just to like walk through. And I specifically was wanting another designer, right? Where to understand the nuance of what I was struggling through. I wasn't much help then. And Lance was there for all the emotional support of the struggle with the business. And- Well, you know, one thing that I find interesting is even when you're in a corporate job with other designers, you often still feel siloed as well. There's been out of the last decade, I could probably pick a couple of months where I truly felt connected with another designer where we were wrestling together and building something. But often it's cramming, cramming, chuck something over the wall. The other designer takes five minutes to give feedback and then you keep moving forward. And so I'd say I think this is a, we're speaking about designers, obviously, because of my background and yours, but this is an interesting challenge for people in general, which is we all feel so isolated. We all feel that we are kind of doing it alone. And I don't know fully how to address that. It's a hard problem.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I agree. It's something I think a lot of people are going through these days. And one thing that I actually did just a couple days ago was I put on LinkedIn just a brief message of, hey, any other San Diego designers want to join a coworking club? And so I've gotten a couple of DMs. I'm in the process of setting that up. So if anyone's listening, please reach out if you're in the San Diego area and you're a designer and you want to co-work together. I would love to start something.
SPEAKER_02:It's interesting. So I have a colleague of mine. We live in the same town or next town over. And he often is like, hey, let's come co-work together. And it's funny, like I want to because I want that other opportunity. But then I also want to be by myself in my own cave. And so it's I guess like the advantage of what you're describing is it basically is up to you on a given day how you're feeling and whether or not you're going to go do it. Yeah, it's the autonomy there.
SPEAKER_00:It's the autonomy and it's also the self-regulation tools. Because I know for myself, if I'm alone for three days straight and I don't go out, I don't work from a coffee shop or something, I'll get really lonely and I'll get really depressed. So I have to constantly be on top of that game and making sure that I'm calling my friends and I'm spending time with my family. And I think that's probably natural for most people. We are not meant evolutionarily to be so siloed. We are from communities. So it is something you kind of have to decide for yourself. Some days, like I said, maybe you do lean into it a little bit. You also got to feel your feelings. If something's going on in your life, don't try to push that away or down. But if it's just the average Tuesday and you haven't left your house, maybe you could put some pants on and go to the coffee shop.
SPEAKER_02:I think there's also a reason that, have either of you seen Inside Out 2 yet?
SPEAKER_00:Not yet, but I really want to.
SPEAKER_02:And Lance is shaking his head. I... Loved the first one where it's okay to be sad. Like it's just so fantastic. And this isn't, it's not spoiling it. The premise of the second one is anxiety is a tool that can go too far, but it's also a protectionary mechanism. Like it's not a bad thing by itself. And the movie really wrestles with that. And there's, it's now the second highest grossing animated film of all time. Like I think that's resonated with so many people and I highly encourage watching it. May have teared up a little bit watching it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I definitely cried in the first one, so I'm sure I will
SPEAKER_02:the second. It is so great. And I think we talked about this a little bit last time, like it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to be struggling. It's okay to be wrestling. It's okay to feel that. And when I've seen people who don't want to acknowledge any of this, it's usually a projection where you're actually struggling. You're just not at a point yet where you can admit that. And that's okay, too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02:I want to circle back on another item. You've used LinkedIn a lot, and that's how you started out to where someone's new, run through your profile picture, get a byline. What, and Lance, feel free to weigh in as well. I personally despise LinkedIn because of all the one thing I learned, dot, dot, dot, then you have to press expand. And usually it's fluff, doesn't mean anything. However, I have also seen some people I respect a lot use it and they're sharing great things. There's a question here, which is, is LinkedIn the primary tool that you would recommend for someone starting out? Are there other tools you've seen to work? Just any thoughts on different social networks? I'll start with Julia, then Lance. I'd love your follow up on this as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm glad you asked because I have put about eight months worth of time and resources into growing my Instagram and my TikTok. And I have not gotten a single client from that. I have gotten a lot of other designers that have been following me and that's fantastic. And I love hearing from them. That's wonderful. But I had gone into it thinking that I was going to get more clients. So that ROI did not measure up. I have really only seen a return on my investment of time when I've really leaned into LinkedIn. So I think LinkedIn is just like any other social media tool. There's going to be some fluff. There's going to be some toxic positivity and a lot of that kind of highlight reel stuff that you see on any social media platform. I don't spend a ton of time scrolling through LinkedIn. When I do... I mostly look at pictures. I'm kind of a toddler in that way. You know, if somebody's taking the time to put up a cool graphic, that's usually going to grab my eye. So I'll look at those things. And if there's people that I've connected with and networked with and they're posting, oftentimes I'll comment on their stuff, you know, show support. But yeah, I don't I wouldn't say I spent as much time on LinkedIn digesting the feed as I would on a more addictive platform like Instagram or TikTok. So I like that because I like I don't even have TikTok on my phone anymore. I got so addicted to it. I had to delete it. Instagram I go in phases with. So yeah, I would, I know that LinkedIn can be so cringy sometimes, but it's, it's so powerful. It's so powerful.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I got a couple of thoughts on LinkedIn too. It's funny about the Instagram going in cycles. I have a friend and it's like, I'll see, like, I'll get like nine or 10 reels. He'll send me for us to laugh together at like every day for a week. And then like, I don't get anything for two weeks. Like I'm like, Oh, he's off. Yeah. I can relate to that. But with LinkedIn, I think maybe there's two things I'd say. One is regardless of whether you've launched your business or not, just start using it now anyway, because it takes a while to build your network and establish yourself there. Like what's the proverb, like the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is right now. So like, Work on your network before you need it rather than just viewing your network as a transaction. Just get to know people. Be there. Be active. Engage before you need it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, just on that point. don't be afraid to connect with other designers or people that inspire you. It doesn't have to just be project or client related. I was reading an article from the Noun Project the other day. They had a spotlight on different illustrators and illustration is something I've always been very inspired by. I really admire illustrators. It's such a fun job. And if I could do that full time, I totally would. And I found an illustrator that just spoke to me. I just loved her work. So I found her on LinkedIn and DM'd her. And that's part of what also makes LinkedIn so fun is because if you're inspired by somebody's work, you can just directly message them. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. I saw that noun project thing as well. By the way, 10 years ago, I posted an icon to the noun project and I think I've made$7. Once you hit$10, you get paid out. So I'm still waiting for that payout from them.
SPEAKER_01:All right, everybody listening, go find that.
SPEAKER_02:Go find the little icon that I did. That's fantastic. I told Lance about this. There was one time that I saw a designer asking for help, and this was a Slack group I'm in, and I offered some help. I suggested, here's a way to approach this. And then a month later, I saw a listing for a role. I applied, and I realized it was from the same designer. And that was something where there was no transaction. I wasn't trying to share to get any help, but it ended up turning into a... Work might have come about from that just because I was communicating and... offering support and trying to help, and it ended up coming back around. And that's cool when that happens. It's not why you do it, but sometimes it can really benefit you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, think of how many people you think of when you think of a designer. It's usually the most recent person you've interacted with, or it's a friend, or it's somebody that's taken the initiative to reach out to you. It's not just going to be the person that you were scrolling through Instagram and saw them one time, right? It's going to be a personal connection that you've made. So yeah, that networking can go so far.
SPEAKER_02:You know, on this, how are you able to gauge if you're going to have work three or six or nine months from now? Is that something that you have a good track of? Is that something that you worry about, don't worry about? Yeah, kind of looking at runway, how does that work for your business?
SPEAKER_00:Oftentimes, the clients that I take on are usually starting from scratch. So there's a lot of work to be done. And I know that if they really want to put as much time and energy and resources into the project as I'm seeing in front of me, that it'll be a pretty long project. But that being said, there are some times people will come on and they get the designs done in maybe two months, but engineers are a little bit backed up. So maybe they'll have to pause or take six months off to build everything that we design because I am a pretty speedy designer. And so in those cases, You know, that happens pretty often. I like to practice something that my life coach has actually helped me with, which is this idea that let's say you're on a discovery call and it's going well, you really want them to sign. And you are coming into it thinking, I really need this client. I really need this client. Okay, that's one energy. Let's say you're coming onto a discovery call and you have the mindset that there are 10 other potential clients that want to talk to you right now. And this is the one that you're talking to. And if you don't get this, you still have 10 other people that want to talk to you. How do you show up then? So that's kind of the mindset that I practice in general is this idea that any time I have had one client need to pause or cancel, there's always another one right around the corner. And that has been true for me. It's bizarre the way that things have always found a way to work. work out in terms of the timeline. I've had so many times where one person cancels and then literally a week later I get a new client that I hadn't even heard from. You know, they came out of nowhere. So I think you have so much power in the thoughts you think. And that's one way that's really helped me.
SPEAKER_02:There famously, people used to say that Steve Jobs had a reality distortion field when he would be presenting products. And there was an element of he would project a an idea until it became real and one of the few people that had the ability to do that. And if you would have challenged him on it, I'll bet he would have just reading his biographies and such, I'll bet he would have said, well, why wouldn't I do that? It gives the chance for this thing to exist by me believing it will exist.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yeah. I am a very, very strong believer in manifestation. I can get a little woo-woo. I'm pretty spiritual, but I do really believe in that. I have manifested so many, so many things in my life, my career being probably the biggest example of that but I didn't know when I first got into this if it would work or not but I kind of just decided that it would I didn't have a plan B you know this is my day job this is what I do so I didn't really have a lot of room to fail and I think there's something pretty cool that happens when you have that mindset. I hear a lot of people, you know, in the music industry talk about things like that. Like you can't have a plan B, you just have to bank on this happening. And that has been what's happened for me because I think if you are a little delulu, you get to what you want to have. I
SPEAKER_03:love that. I can relate the no plan B thing, right? When I launched my own business, I didn't have a plan B, this had to work. And I was going to work really hard until it did. And the feeling of that actually becoming a reality was, I was over the moon. It was fantastic.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And the other effect of not having a plan B is it forces you to pivot. Because if you can't fail... then you have to pivot and you have to keep finding new ways to make it work. So when I first went freelance, we talked about this in the last episode, but I tried hourly and then I tried the retainer model and none of it was fitting the life I wanted to live. And so I decided I was gonna design my business around the life I wanna have. And the life I wanted to have did not include tracking hours. It did not include chasing down clients for money. It included... Me feeling relaxed, knowing when I'm going to get paid every single month, knowing that the clients I took on were invested in the project just as much as I was. And so that forced me to pivot a lot. And that's how I landed on the subscription design.
SPEAKER_02:Just a quick technical question. Do you use the Dubsado?
SPEAKER_00:Dubsado.
SPEAKER_02:Dubsado, do you use that for billing clients or do you use something separate for that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so let me nerd out on Dubsado for a second because I really love it. Dubsado is fabulous for so many different reasons. So one thing that I use it for, and I'll go through a big list here, but one thing that I use it for is on my website. I have a form on my contact page that allows the potential client to fill out just a super quick questionnaire on their project, what they're looking for, if they're comfortable with the subscription model and the price, and then if there's any kind of referrals that have brought them to this page. And then they can fill that out. And based on their answers, there's two different paths that their answers could take. So the first is we might not be a match. The second is if we are a match, then they get sent an email link to schedule a call with me and they can go and schedule that call. It's hooked up to my Google calendar. So I don't even need to do anything to get to that phase. Dubsado has taken care of all of that for me. I set it up on the backend on Dubsado. It's a bit of a learning curve. I wouldn't say it's like the most perfect UX or UI, but it's a great platform. It's super powerful. So I set that all up and then I don't even have to touch it and I'm already able to weed out people that don't fit the criteria of what I'm looking for so that's really wonderful did you have something to say
SPEAKER_02:oh that's just amazing because you're not wasting your or a client's time if certain questions would just immediately make it, you know, this one doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Yeah, I've settled on, I'm doing subscription projects for 6,000 a month and I'm not taking on just one-off logos. I'm not taking on just web design. You know, this is a long-term project. I'm offering long-term projects. So, you know, it weeds out people that are looking for some quicker turnarounds. And then, so the other thing that I love about Dubsado is with just one link I can send out my proposal the client can view that and accept it it takes them right to the contract they can sign that and then that takes them right to the down payment link that they can pay and so I Before I was doing all of that manually. Now I don't have to. It's just one link, one simple link. It's all done. It's fantastic. And then the last thing that I'll nerd out about is that since it's a subscription model, it's charged as a subscription monthly. I can set up my invoices on Dubsado to send out those monthly invoices for me. And I can even set reminder emails to remind the client to pay it if they have not paid it by a certain date. So I don't really have to do any of that stuff. I still check. I, you know, just to make sure I go in there probably once a week just to make sure I don't have anything outstanding that I need to check on. But yeah, I mean, it's it's a fantastic tool. I actually last year had a goal for myself to automate my business as much as possible. And so that's how I found Upsado. And it's taking care of everything I needed to take care of from that goal. just in that one tool.
SPEAKER_02:You just described a lot of pains I felt where I'm trying to get an invoice. I'm trying to negotiate. I'm trying to have a conversation. It's all manual. And maybe you're doing it with three, four, five, six different clients all at once every month. That is absolutely overwhelming. And to have it kind of all funneled into the same, first of all, it makes you look far more professional because you're like, this is the way it works. Just run through. This is my software. But the Not having to chase down invoices. And you'll still have some issues with that, but there's an expectation that's being set. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And in line with the expectations, I make all of my proposals expire after one week. And I tell people that during our discovery calls because... I get these calls all the time. And if I have overlapping proposals out, that gets really muddy. What if one person signs and the other person ends up signing like three weeks later? But you can see how it could get muddy really quickly. So I reserve that week for them. If they haven't made that decision after a week, which I think is more than enough time, then it's expired and we're not going to work together. And that's fine. They can reach out later. But I definitely have people that will Reach out, you know, two weeks go by and I haven't heard a single thing from them. And they're like, hey, sorry, things got busy. Can you send that proposal again? And oftentimes, I mean, this happens not all the time, but it's happened a handful of times where I've had to say, hey, look, I only send out proposals once. I'm sorry. And for that reason, it's because I want to work with people that are hyper organized and quick. Because that's how I work. And I just don't do well with people that are disorganized. It's just not the type of client I want to have. I understand things come up, but if there's been no communication, that's a red flag to me.
SPEAKER_02:Oh man. Yeah. The first interaction you have with someone often indicates how it's going to go. There are exceptions, but that is often the case. And I remember there was one role that I was applying for a while back and the process to get through was not great at all. And surprise, surprise, being part of the organization continued that process. There was no change. And I I think looking back, the red flags were there, but I wasn't paying attention.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, my mom has always told me growing up, it starts at the top. So if the CEO and founder is, you know, rude or disorganized, then that's going to trickle down into the rest of the culture. If the CEO is empathetic and kind and patient and understanding, that's going to trickle down into the culture. So that's the quality culture. of person that I look for when I'm having that discovery call, you know, are they just, do they seem like they're organized, professional, kind? That's what I'll say yes to.
SPEAKER_02:I want to call out a former managing director of ours, Tina. I really appreciated when I joined this company and I stayed there for five years, her mentality was, um, you have kids, that's great. They can be on the calls. I don't care. If a client would be offended by that, we don't want them. She focused so deeply on empathy and ended up hiring a friend of mine and Lance who worked there for years and kind of defined how, and that's why Lance was there with HR, how, how this whole method of caring for people should work. And it trickled down for a decade because that was important to her. And she established that throughout the whole organization. And I've been at other organizations where it's clearly not that, and it's clearly something else. And some organizations, of the managers are able to fight against it for a little while and try to change it, but not forever.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, go Tina. She sounds awesome.
SPEAKER_02:Tina's fantastic. Let's see a couple more things and then we'll probably need to wrap here. You described that you have heads down days and then days where you'll take calls. On those heads down days, could you, I would like to know this just personally, could you describe what is a good day We got a lot done. What does that look like? And then maybe what's a bad day where maybe you just stay in bed and don't, I'd love to know the contrast between those two.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a funny question for sure. Yeah. Let me think about that one. I would say a good day. I've got a very clear list from the clients and then also on my Asana board that I keep track of as I'm going throughout the week, I'm making tasks for myself. So I open up my laptop and I know all of my list of things that I'm working on that day. And I'm able to just knock them out one by one. I basically prioritize it based on the next meeting that's coming up. So if I have a meeting the next day, I'll, you know, work on that. Usually I've probably completed that task by then, but sometimes things take a little bit longer. So I'll prioritize it based on whatever meetings coming up first. And I'll just go through those tasks. I'll take a and come back and keep working usually wrap up around four or five and then go work out go see friends something like that that's that's a good day a bad day is probably i wake up i think i have a pretty decent list of what i'm working on but i don't really understand this one part of the brief and i reach out and maybe i don't hear back in a you know reasonable amount of time which you know, I believe in asynchronous communication. I don't think people need to respond right away, but within an hour or two would be nice. Sometimes I don't get that. So I have to move on. Or sometimes I get a little too much information back and then it becomes a whole new project that I wasn't really prepared for. So those are moments where I have to sort of check myself and check kind of the project and sort of reiterate, hey, it You know, it sounds like there's a lot more here that I'm going to need to dive into. So let me take a second and kind of reframe how I'm going to approach this project and how I'm going to break it down because we've added a lot more here that I wasn't prepared for. And
SPEAKER_02:that gut check where if you're not doing well to know to step back and look, that's so valuable. And that often just comes with experience, right? Where instead of just hammering through and forcing it, you'll pause for a minute and that's just as valuable.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it can be hard to do. It can be really easy to just... But I'm not going to lie. Sometimes I actually really like that because I love the thrill of working on multiple things at one time. And I live a very. chill life in Southern California. So I get a lot of the adrenaline rush by like, okay, this person needs this thing. Okay. I'm going to do this thing right now. And then I'm going to go to this one and oh, they're slacking me over here. So I'm going to check that. And it's chaos in my head sometimes, but I kind of like it that way. I don't do well when I'm bored. So yeah, it works for me. I
SPEAKER_03:love that. Oh, go ahead, Lance. Yeah, no, I hear that. That's where the dopamine comes from.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. The way I like to
SPEAKER_02:describe it is I want to be having a hard swim. I don't want to be drowned but I don't mind if it's hard where I'm, I'm, I'm trying to make it through the waves. It's, it's just enough to keep my interest. Otherwise I'm going to get bored and I'm going to go hop on Reddit. Like that's just the reality for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yeah. Same. I need a little bit of pressure. It's just going to create better work. You know, I think that's kind of the, the craft as well is like, how do you maintain organization? How do you keep track of what's going on. How do you take notes when things are changing as things are so fast paced? You know, I got my start in a fast paced environment. So I think that's just how I've always gone into design is this startup, you know, the hinge times in my life when things were so scrappy and we were working long hours and shifting gears frequently. 20 times a day. But I loved it so much. It was so much fun. So I think I'm kind of always chasing that high ever since.
SPEAKER_02:All right. So I now have we've only gone through half of the questions that I want to go through. So we're going to have to have you back on. This has been so great. There's just so many more things I want to dive through. Thank you. Can you share again how people can find you? Because I'm sure people will want to reach out and chat.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, please do. So it is my website, Julia Chesbrough dot com, J-U-L-I-A-C-H-E-S-B-R-O-U-G-H dot com. You can also find me by the same name on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok. Feel free to reach out. I would love to hear from everybody.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much. And if you're listening and have questions for me and Lance, because we're the stars of the show, feel free to reach out. It's email at fractional.fm. And that was a joke. Thank you so much.
