Fractional
Fractional
Larry Miller: Trying to boil the ocean
Update: I accidentally pulled the audio from a different show. It is now properly updated with the episode from Larry Miller.
Joshua and Lance had Larry on as a second time guest to talk about his recent fractional journey, and how he's combining that with his entrepreneurial dreams while also managing the logistics of life.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/larry-miller-b086a4bb/
All right.
SPEAKER_01:Hi and welcome. It's episode 70 of the Fractional Podcast. We're back. Joshua Wold is here and we're here with a repeat guest, Larry Miller. Larry, happy to have you on the show. Last time we talked to you, you were leading a product management role, but yeah, what's new for you? Good to be back. Appreciate you guys having me. Yeah, lots happened
SPEAKER_02:in the last time since we've talked. I went from leading a product team that Josh was on with me at Angel Studios to being laid off shortly after that. It's been a little over six months now, and... It really has just been kind of a crazy whirlwind of some personal family health issues that we're taking care of. And then a lot of going from there to coming back to, oh, yeah, we got to figure out this work situation. And everywhere from here's all the possibilities to dipping back into what do I want to be when I grow up and everything in between. So. It's been wild. It's been a
SPEAKER_00:good ride, though. So I want to touch on something. And I definitely want to get into the work-related items. But what are ways that you find peace or rest or find those moments in the day amidst all the chaos? Maybe you don't. That's a completely okay answer. But how do you find yourself in that? And I'd be curious, any thoughts you have on that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I feel like I'm very lucky. First off that just like my family situation, I'm married, I got four little kids, we own a home. And it's funny because it's pretty much always busy. Like life is always work. When you think about, you actually go to work when you come home, like you gotta take care of the family, you gotta help out, gotta be with them, spend time. But I feel like the nature of kind of my line of work and Josh, you as well, spending a lot of time behind a computer screen. It's funny how like for me coming home from that, And then being active, whether it's, and it's still super busy, but like with kids or going outside, working in the yard, doing, it's almost like the blue collar work is a rest to the white collar, like being behind a screen on calls, you know, with your AirPods in all day type deal. So funny enough, I feel like true rest doesn't really happen. And you guys relate this. And those who have little kids, until the kids go to bed, you feel like you can kind of just... But even doing work that's like chores or anything like that, I don't know, for me personally, it kind of
SPEAKER_01:helps being outside. helps a lot too. We've intentionally had a pretty early bedtime for our kids always. And now my oldest is 13 and we're still like encourage her into bed around 730 because I love it. We want some time to just unwind. I mean, we do the same thing and our
SPEAKER_02:oldest is seven, but we still, I mean, it's a lot harder and harder in the summertime, right? Like we're, we aim for eight o'clock. It's probably closer to like 839, but now it's starting to get darker a little bit earlier hitting that, you know, 730, eight o'clock is a little easier, but totally, I really think that just having time to yourselves, right? You need to have something else too. I would say for me personally is I think of this as like, what are the, what are like the essential things that I need to do for me? Like if I had, you know, unlimited me time, whatever, like what are the things that I would like to do? And then you start breaking that down to like, what are the essential things, right? So for me, and I'm, I'm a religious guy, so I think a lot about what do I do for my spiritual welfare and then physically, what's good for me physically. And it's like spending time reading scriptures and religious texts and then doing something physically active, exercise, whether that's working out, playing basketball, getting outside for a run, whatever it might be. But I try as best I can physically. to set aside a little bit of time. And you have to, depending on your schedule, your life situation, you may not be able to put the time into that kind of stuff that you would like to, but at least find something or some amount of time that you can dedicate to consistently And in a perfect world, I'd like to do it all in the morning, like before I get started. That doesn't always happen that way because schedules are crazy and kids' sleeping habits don't always go the way that you want them to. But there's something, and I don't even know if it's more physical or if it's more mental, where if I get in that 20 minutes of reading every day or I get in that half hour to an hour of exercise, whatever it is, there's this immense weight that's taken off my shoulders. And just, it's almost like I feel like, okay, like I took care of me. Now I'm in a better position to like take care of everyone else. And I feel like amidst all the chaos of life and family and work and whatever it might be, the more consistent I am with those two things for me personally, I don't know. I feel like I have a much more level head. I feel a lot lighter, really helps me to manage
SPEAKER_00:the stresses and the anxieties of life. I love that. Yesterday, I was feeling particularly stressed and I went on a seven-mile run and I just kept running. I just kept finding longer and longer loops for my run, like looking for every possible way to extend it because I just wanted to be out in the sunshine. And in northern Idaho, that's pretty lacking. We had a sunny day yesterday and I know Salt Lake City is pretty similar. And I just found a little more peace the rest of the day after just running myself ragged for seven hours. I don't normally do that, but it just felt so good to be out. I resonate a lot with what you're describing because in order for us to be able to be helpful and useful in work, in life, with family, we've got to come from a place of having a center point. And if you're religious, there's a certain way that can happen. If you're not, there's a certain way that can happen. And I think that's so critical because it's easy for us to lose sight of who we are amidst And I'm going to kind of jump into my next topic here, hustle culture and capitalism, late stage capitalism, having side jobs, having fractional work, all these things we're doing. to get certain financial or career goals, which I don't have a problem with those. But when they become so consuming that we lose sight of who we are and the things we love, they become challenging. They become harmful. And I was listening to a podcast from an author, Letitia Hershey, about the importance of finding rest, the importance of owing it to yourself. For her, she's like, I'll take a nap in the middle of the day. Actually, she's turned down work opportunities because she's trying to make sure that she's in a place of holisticness to be able to be helpful to And I don't know, I find some resonance with that. And we've talked about this in the past, like I've got a religious background where I'll take a day off every week to spend time with my family and disconnect from work and just try and care about the people locally that I enjoy spending time with.
SPEAKER_02:No, a hundred percent. That I think finding rest, one of the, I mean, I don't know, you know, every situation's different getting laid off or, you know, company going under or whatever, but at least initially in the beginning, there's kind of like this, obviously the stresses of like what just happened, but there's also, I almost feel like it's, it was like an opportunity to just be like, I actually don't have to worry about work right now for it. Like, at least I told myself, like, I need to take at least a week. Right. Like a full seven days were just like, just need to get my head together. Right. So just go like be with my family, take time to do things that like, you know, we haven't necessarily had time to do at different times of the day or the week or whatever it might be, but it almost helps to like reset. And I think everyone would be a lot better off. If we do that, even like when we don't find ourselves in that situation of, you know, being laid off or having all this time off, kind of like you're saying, similar to you, Josh, like religiously, right? Like we observe a Sabbath day, which, you know, by default in there in the calendar is a day, one day during the week where we just totally disconnect from anything work related or whatever. And it's just all about like being home, being with family. And so I think that that practice really like is super helpful. And being able to find that too, on a daily basis is something that I've been trying to do, especially right now where, you know, starting some fractional work, looking for other things like your mind can keep going all day, even when you're technically done, like your mind just keeps, keeps spinning and it can be hard to kind of, you know, disconnect and relax and rest. Like I'm still, I'm not going to sit here and tell you like, Oh, this is how you do it. Cause I'm, I feel like I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. Right. Club. Yeah, but no, a hundred percent. So I'm interested, you know, as you guys kind of delve into this, what, what some of the strategies are for that. Because something that I have noticed, like even just during this time of, you know, since being laid off, but also like working, anytime I take time off or have gone on vacation, I'm sure there's a point of like diminishing returns, but whether it's like five days, a week, a long weekend, whatever it is, I always feel so much more level-headed and I feel like I see things so much clearer than I would otherwise if I'd have been, you know, deep in the weeds for however long or whatnot. So I think this idea of like, taking a step back, finding time to disconnect, take a break. 100%, I agree with you. It's just good overall, not just for us personally and how we feel, but
SPEAKER_00:in how we perform and what were able to do. I've had colleagues who have taken sabbaticals from work, maybe three months or so. And when they come back, they almost always do something drastically different with their life. And maybe it's switching a role within the company. Maybe it's switching to a different company. Maybe it's quitting and becoming a beet farmer. And it's almost that introspection of having the time to just figure out what matters most often. So I'm sure there is diminishing returns, but three months doesn't sound like the worst thing. And I know for you, Lance, one of the ways that you handle the stress of this is you also like to get out in nature, whether it's biking, running, or hiking. And you and I have often texted each other in the middle of one of those events, like, hey, this is my time to get away and think. And I've often found that while I'm running, my mind is the most active. It's creating ideas, and I'll sometimes pause and take a note. And when I'm at a desk... I'm not in that mode, right? I'm trying to quickly do something that I believe is valuable and actually enjoy doing, but it drains me. It doesn't restore. Go
SPEAKER_01:ahead, Lance. I heard something recently, because you and I have talked about what our minds do while we're on a run. And it clicked for me, right? Because you'll often say that you get your creative ideas, you solve problems. And I always say, I didn't think about anything. Somehow I'm able to just empty my mind completely when I'm-
SPEAKER_00:That's amazing. I don't understand it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think I figured it out. Okay. It's the running surface. So a road run will allow you to find a repetitive rhythm and get you into thinking. And a technical surface- all you can think about is where your next foot placement is, right? Like, am I going to step on that rock? Am I going to twist my ankle? Like it's same with riding a road bike versus a mountain bike. Like you're so keyed into the immediate, like need right in front of you that like, that's the only thing you can think about. And so it just creates this, at least this is what I'm, this is what I'm choosing to believe it does for me. Right. But it just like, it forces you to only think about the very superficial thing right in front of you and like the rest of your problems and stresses and There's no room because you're just trying to survive the
SPEAKER_00:next stretch of trail. About a third of my run is on a road. And two thirds, another third is on a trail, but it's super chill. One third, like I will biff it if I don't watch my steps. So I think there might be something there. Like I actually have to stop and there's this one mossy downhill tread that's often raining that if I don't stop and actually pick my way through, I'm going to completely fall forward. And you better believe I'm not thinking about work at that for those 20 seconds. We just
SPEAKER_01:need more high risk trail
SPEAKER_00:surfaces. I had my wife. running with me on this one. And it was icy. It would have been snowing. And she's like, you do this all the time. Like I have to, it's, it's the only way that I stay sane. So Larry, I'm curious and we'll, we'll kind of dive in and share. This can be a tips and interview podcast. So however this needs to go, I'm curious, what fractional engagement do you have currently? And where are you trying to take things from here? If, if there is a growth thing that you're looking for?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So feel like kind of alluded to earlier, we had a pretty serious medical procedure that we had to do with one of my, with my youngest daughter, literally like three weeks after the layoff was announced. Right. So, and it was like, it was one of those where there was a lot of hands-on attention and care that needed to be given within like the month after that. So for me, it was kind of like, all right, I'm not even going to think about, you know, work anything else for the next month. Like, you know, maybe this is somehow blessing in disguise. Like, I'll just look at this as I have now my whole undivided attention to give to helping out with the current situation. So I literally took the first month. And it's funny, the way you're describing when you're running on a technical surface, you can't really think about anything else. It's like, by default, we were so busy with that whole thing that it's like, didn't have time to really think a whole lot about work or what I was going to do. I just kind of gave myself permission to be like, dude, take four weeks off, you know, whatever it is, and we'll come back to it from there. So I'm really looking at like, oh, this would have been beginning of the summer is when I really started thinking about, okay, like what, what am I going to do? What am I not going to do? I mean, my first thought was just, let's start applying, you know, see what other positions are open and get right back into it. So we don't have to, you know, bring the savings as much. Well, that turned into, well, should I know, or should I be taking a little bit more time thinking about what else might I like to do potentially? Like, is there something else? So then you throw that whole thing into it. I went from thinking about just joining another company in a product role to thinking about buying a business, like a small service business that had nothing to do with anything technical that I had really done before, but just like, you know, let's just get into something, working with my hands, completely different lifestyle, why not? To starting another tech company and basically everything in between, right? I feel like I went from, taking a break, totally on family, coming back from that. And all of a sudden it was like, the world's your ocean. The problem with that though is good luck trying to boil the ocean, right? Like you got to narrow it down at some point. And I think that for me, the fractional thing almost came accidentally, right? And I think maybe, I don't know, just people that I've talked to, meeting with you guys, I feel like this could happen for a lot of people, but my brother had already six months into a startup that he was working on. And at this point, You know, I'm looking at him and he's like, well, what do you think of this? And I've got lots of time on my hands. So I'm going over, hanging out with him. And I'm sitting there like, hey, I know you can't like hire anyone full time or, you know, you're not at that stage yet, but you want me to come on and do some consulting or something like that for a couple hours, this, that, and the other. And he's like, you know what? Like you present the case. Sounds good to me. Like, let's do it. And so by default, that turned into the first, you know, fractional gig. And now all of a sudden I'm thinking to myself, like, actually, you know, this is like what I've been doing. for a while. I have a couple other contacts that I know are doing different startups and things like this. I wonder if I just reach out to them and see what happens. So this is more end of the summer, early fall, a few months ago. And from there, it's like, talk to another friend. He's like, yeah, actually, there's a few people maybe I'll get you in touch with that this could sound interesting or whatever. So I happened to just... I was blessed to have an opportunity with a brother who had something that I could just go to, personal network and be like, hey, I think I could help you out doing some of this, that and the other on the side, nothing crazy, but like it was something right. And then from there, I'm kind of like, you know, can I turn this into, into a full-time thing? Just taking on, you know, just a couple of fractional, fractional jobs. So I'm at the point right now where I'm one potentially looking at one other one right now, trying to see if I can. get some sort of a pipeline or I don't know, something like that. So it's pretty early on, but I feel like I kind of accidentally stumbled on it just by something. And then that consulting work has turned into, well, now I'm doing fractional product management
SPEAKER_00:for a startup. I'm curious at this stage, still growing into this, because we've had fractionals on here who are quite far in their fractional career, very new in it, turning away from it, like all types. What would be the pros and cons of, let's say, building this up to a level that you're good with it from a time perspective and financial perspective versus a full-time engagement? Again, how do you weigh those two given equal opportunity Did I know? Yeah. What do you consider as the benefits of each? First of
SPEAKER_02:all, I'd say my frame of reference is that I'm coming from doing entrepreneurship first before I got into the full-time stuff. And really, the thing that I loved about entrepreneurship was the creativity. The level of freedom is thrown around a lot with entrepreneurship. It's not like you have all the time in the world on your hands. But it's more like you... you know, you're behind the steering wheel. So you can, you know, determine what stuff's gonna get done, when it does. There's a lot of pressure with that because it's like, you know, you can't just be like, hey, I need to take a couple days break because I need it, and then everything's gonna be okay because someone else is taking care of it. Like, that's on you. So you gotta make sure that you're calculating that out. So there's pros with that, and I really love that part of it, right? And I kind of, I missed that a lot when I was working, you know, with you guys at Angel, And it was a good situation, but still just kind of like, you know, being a little bit more in control of your time and kind of the pacing of things and, you know, what it is that you're trying to accomplish. At the same time, what was really nice at Angel was working with a team that I, on a daily basis that, you know, I feel like we really clicked and things were good there. And not to mention, you know, not least at all is you've got a paycheck coming in every two weeks. You've got the benefits of and everything else that can go with, you know, just more of that stability. So I think the pros and cons are there. I personally, I think because I started off with the taste of the entrepreneurship, tasted a little bit of success with that and kind of, so basically like I knew that like it could be done. Getting into this fractional work now, I feel like I'm a little bit more of the mindset that if I could turn this into something that would be full-time, I'd probably prefer that than necessarily going back and taking the security of working full-time at a company. That being said, I mean, who knows, right? There's pros and cons to both. If you're working on a project as a W-2 with a team that you really like on something that you know, is meaningful, has a lot of potential. Like there's a lot of excitement with that. And there's a lot of great things that come with that, that it's like, you know, and then also, you know, fractional, it's not like a regular job where you've got this thing indefinitely. So as long as the company is good to go and, you know, you deliver whatnot, like you're set for as long as, as long as you can do it fractional. I mean, the job might be three months, like six, right. You don't know. And so at which point, It's almost like you got to reapply and you're looking for new jobs every three to six months without necessarily all the benefits. So I definitely have felt that. I feel like I'm still early enough in this thing that the entrepreneurship drive in me is like, oh, keep this going. But who knows? Things
SPEAKER_00:could change. One pattern that Lance and I have seen in interviewing a bunch of fractionals is we've seen fractionals that are on the C-suite side where they're chief fractional X officer. And then we've seen fractionals who are on the almost like subscription IC side where, and this is what I have done in the past, where you're, let's say a designer on call on a monthly recurring basis. And with the former, it seemed that the contracts in general last longer, where you're set up that it's a 6, 12, 18, you know, multi-year contract, or not specifically that way, but multi-year relationship while the company is building up to a certain point. It does, this is again from interviewing and just talking to people, it does seem that there's more stability in that, less turnover. With let's say a designer for hire, the turnover is higher. You're going to need more clients and you're going to run through them faster. So I think were I to do it again, I would consider that part of it, which is, do I want to be more involved in leadership where there may be more stability? Or do I want to be more involved in doing the thing that I am very comfortable doing where there may be more turnover? So I think that's the one big axis to consider as you're pushing this forward or, or maybe not pushing it forward. Right. And the turnover thing that
SPEAKER_02:you bring up is like probably the biggest part of this, right? Or at least for me, what I've seen so far is you kind of get this sense of like, yep, like I'm starting my business, my consulting, my fractional, whatever it is. But you know, you're, you're on a, at least for me in a product role and working with a startup and the other startups that I'm talking to, this is like my niche specifically. Right. I mean, it could turn into something longer and, Full-time, like if the company takes off. At the same time though, with what I'm working on, it's where they're looking at, hey, we're trying to get something up and off the ground and see if it's going to work or not within six months. So the gig could be six months, the gig could be 12, or they could just at three be like, you know what? This isn't really going the direction we thought. We want to save the cash and that's it. And so you always kind of got to be on your toes. Where's the next line of work coming? What potentials do I have, right? And be comfortable with that. Otherwise, yeah, I don't know. And it's not like you can't switch either. You know what I mean? You're doing a fractional job. Time runs out. You don't have anything. And you decide, you know, let's go find a good company with some good people and just see what's out there. But it all just depends. There's so many factors that go into it. Like I was saying just previously, for me personally, as a product manager, trying to find consulting or fractional work where my area of expertise is in zero to one startups, um, I mean, it's pretty niche, so it's out there. At the same time, that's not something that generally, it's an area that generally tends to have longer contract durations, right? So being able to find good prospects or good situations, I think is probably the key to it. But who knows? I've been doing this not for very long. So I might figure it out or it might be back to the drawing board and let's go find a good company and a good team
SPEAKER_00:to go work with. It's interesting seeing the industry shift. I've seen articles that, oh, product design is going to end and it's going to merge with product management. Like, oh, that's terrifying. Okay. Then I see product management is going to end and it's only going to be designers and engineers. And then I see stuff on the HR front, like, oh, HR is struggling and that's like Lance's field. And I think the biggest takeaway I have from all that is, first of all, the change, maybe I'm getting older, I'm not embracing the change by default. I'm sometimes a little frustrated, a little bit persnickety, like, come on, what we were doing was okay. Why must we change no matter what? But I have looked at, all right, what are ways that I do need to continue to grow in order to stay viable for the market? That's a whole other topic, but something that's been on my mind. It's not a question. It's just more of a statement, I guess, that I have.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's
SPEAKER_00:a
SPEAKER_01:good point. I think we've, I mean, we've kind of talked about this a lot before here, but there's always the hierarchy of needs, right? So the approach that you end up taking has probably a lot to do with your unique situation and what you need the most right now. And I think for some people, they have the idea that I have to do it this way. I've got to be a successful entrepreneur. Larry, I think we talked about this with you when you were here last time, right? But it's not a failure. to say, you know what, I need to take this job and take this paycheck so I can take care of the most basic things that are pressing here for me and my family. And I can come back to being an entrepreneur, to being a founder. Life is long, right? There's a lot of opportunity out there.
SPEAKER_02:100%. It's just maybe you say that and it made me think back to Josh when you were talking a little bit about hustle culture and just kind of the stage of, I don't know, the mindset that a lot of people have right now of more and more and more, side hustle this, side hustle that. And it's just got me thinking a lot about that. You were just saying, Lance, in our last discussion about, I think just the advent of social media in general, being able to see, hear, and listen to so many different people's stories. I think a lot of times we fall into the pit of, well, so-and-so reached this pinnacle that I would love to reach, and this is how they did it. Therefore, I must do it that way right or someone else did it this way therefore that must be the way to get to it when there are so many variables to people's stories and where they started what their life circumstances are like right like what what kind of responsibilities and things they have outside of work that they have to you know worry and take care of it's so hard i think a lot of times for you know people just in our space like looking you know looking to to make something in the entrepreneurial realm to feel like you need to do something a certain way. And that if you haven't done that, or if you haven't gotten to a certain pinnacle or benchmark by, let's say this stage of your life or whatever it might be that, you know, for whatever reason you're failing, like, that's just, I say this, know that like, it's not good to think like that, but it is really hard. It is really hard to fight that and look back and be like, man, like, what am I doing? What have I, what have I been doing the last, you know, Two years, five years, 10 years, whatever it might be. The fact of the matter is, is everyone's got a crazy journey. And especially when it comes to entrepreneurship, like most people were really successful at one thing after they tried a whole bunch of other things and it didn't work out. But all we ever talk about is the one thing that did work out, right? And to me, again, We discussed it earlier in the conversation if it was before we started the recording, but the whole like health is wealth mindset, like for me in my personal situation, it's like, well, we can pay the mortgage. The kids are healthy. We've got food on the table. As far as I'm concerned, anything else after that, right? If we have those things covered, I'm not failing, right? In my current circumstance where I'm at, like, yeah, I'm not at the stage of life where I can, you know, go move in and sleep on a buddy's floor or whatever to start the next whatever it is that I want to start. Got to feed the kids, got to make sure that they got clothes, got to make sure that people are healthy and whatnot. So whatever I got to do to do that, it's fine. If it takes more time, if it's a totally different route, at the end of the day, my story is mine, yours is yours. I think we need to be careful in today's day and age of trying to carbon copy someone else's journey. I think it's cool to look at people's success stories and try and gather takeaways or principles or be like, you know, it'd be really cool to, you know, do something like that, but be very careful not to be like, look at where they are at that age or with, you know, this dollar amount when just the variables are so different. Everyone's story is in circumstances are just so unique.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. And one of the things that stands out to me is you have value. You are valuable and despite your financial situation, despite your career ladder. And many of us coming from a broken world, we perceive that our value will come from reaching a certain point. And I'm speaking to myself here. But you are loved, you have value, you are an amazing person, full stop. And if that's all that happens, that does not mean you have not reached some potential, some apex. No, you're a creature that has a right to exist. And I think if you can come from that place of strength, then you can say, oh, well, knowing that I am valuable, what could I do to be helpful to others? What could I do to fulfill my creative joy? What could I do to push on things that I desire to do? And then I think that's beautiful, right? Now, with that said, I have to pay the mortgage. Got to pay the food, got to take care of the kids as well. So there's a baseline that I must accomplish, but I try to turn it into a, what's fun? What is enjoyable because I'm a valuable person? And I don't know, I'm going through it, but that's what I try to think. I did something today. There's this book called, I know I've referenced it multiple times, called Deep Work by Cal Newport. And he also has a new book, Slow Productivity. Highly recommend it. It's fantastic. Just about the process of not being part of hustle culture. Maybe that'll be the unsponsored book of the podcast. And one of the things that he recommends is taking a break from what are defined as infinity wells. So if it's something that you can scroll forever, probably take a break from that. So I just made a commitment to myself this morning. I'm taking a 30-day break from all infinity wells, all social media, all streaming apps. The exception being if I'm watching a movie with my family, that doesn't count, right? If I'm going to play a game with my kid, that doesn't count because you're then doing some social And already, I'm only a few hours into it, but I feel some peace right now. Like, all right, I'm going to double down on the people I care about and spend time with people I enjoy. This is part of that. This is part of trying to find meaning in life. And I think if more of us were to do that, there might be less frustration, less hatred, less us versus them. So that's my pitch. We'll see how it goes. So
SPEAKER_02:that's awesome. The infinity well. concept. Funny enough, you starting your 30-day break from all that, I have for the last four years deleted all of my social media for the month of January. I start every new year just deleting it for the entire month. And crazy enough, it's like you say, feel lighter, almost like a little heavier. I think that has probably a lot more to do with the fact that I'm caught in the infinity wells and scrolling way more than I am producing stuff or putting out good content. But every single time, I come back and I'm like, ah, you know, it's February now. I don't really need to download it again, but I probably should just to keep up with stuff. Every single time I download stuff, I get in there, I see 20 whatever notifications. None of them have anything to do with me directly or personally. And I always come back to the same conclusion that I really did not miss anything. But then I get back into the same, oh man, I need to stop the death scroll and take it easy and stuff. But I don't know, you saying that just got me thinking to that. And I'm like, I don't know why I don't know. I just fall into that every single time, even though every year I start off every year for the last four years, taking a month off of all the social media stuff. But the other thought that came to mind too with that is, I don't know, we're like going off on this, but you just, you're making me think of it. I think it was Andrew Huberman was the last person I heard talk about this, but I think a lot of people have been talking about it lately is when it comes to things like that. I think this is just true in general too. Like when we're talking about finding fulfillment and like things that'll make you, you know, just feel better overall. I think that the concept of being a producer over a consumer has been a big recurring theme that I've been coming across where creating value for others, right? And that could be anything. In your work, obviously, you want to create value, but in your free time, what are you doing, right? I feel way different when I'm scrolling through Instagram reels for an hour to 90 minutes versus... if I sit down and start playing the piano or something like that, or try to learn a new song or go out and I don't know, like do something, like create something, build something, write something. Like there's just a huge difference. I think in what that does to the psyche, right? Like mindlessly scrolling, you know, the, the just consumption of things, all that, because it's so available out there versus like, what's something that you like, something that you enjoy, you know, like go organize a room, go, go write a song, go, you know, do something with
SPEAKER_00:friends, like just makes a huge difference. One of the other elements too is they're like sitting down in a movie theater and watching a movie, a long form content created by someone with an artistic vision is very different. Instagram reels or TikTok videos that are bumped every 30 seconds changing, reading a book, listening to a podcast. So those are things that in these 30 days, like this is my third time doing this as well. I don't Those are very different than the rapid forms of consumption via Twitter or threads or Instagram that I think just kind of got us. And all three of us work in tech companies where we help to make this kind of stuff, right? We help to build the things that are going to be consumed. So we're kind of partially responsible for the tools that get created, but I have to believe they can also be created for good. So that's the thing I try to do. Yeah. Yeah. Just one more thing I have to throw in,
SPEAKER_02:just because you brought up movies being different than that sort of thing. Another thing that I've tried to do, and again, it's always better at the beginning of the year when I'm off social media and whatnot, is I love music. I love listening to music, but tried rather than just turning on Spotify, flipping through a playlist that I can just change whenever I want, is I've tried every week, and I tried this with my brother. Both of us love music and whatnot, and we need to do it more consistently, but Pick an album every week. Pick an artist and pick an album and listen to every song on the album all the way through. In order. In order. It is amazing the difference that you feel just putting on the music and flipping through songs versus it's almost like we're recreating the old school. You put the record on and you just have to listen to it play all the way through. I don't know. Just a totally different experience. And it sounds like cheesy when I say it, but it's like just such a deeper experience when you're doing something like that than kind of the hustle and mindlessly scrolling and flipping through stuff like
SPEAKER_01:you guys are describing. So it sounds like producing is better than consuming, but when you're going to consume, make it count, right? Yeah. Don't just order the dopamine dump truck. Really
SPEAKER_00:go on. There's an old book I read years ago called Love is the Killer App. I probably referenced it where the author describes social media doom scrolling as like having a little candy, a little bit of candy. Oh, a little candy is okay. That's not horrible. And this is an older book. So like reading a newspaper is like having a snack. And then he describes each different thing as, you know, reading a good novel or a good, you know, biography. It's like, that's a meal. That is a healthy meal. And you can have, it'll break down at some point, right? The metaphor. But I just love that where you want to have a healthy snack. It's not a bad thing. A smoothie in the middle of the day or whatever. Those are okay. But if you're just consuming candy and sugar all day, you're not going to have a healthy mind. And I try to think about it that way. And then I inevitably just get back into doom scrolling. So then I have to do a hard reset and I'm still struggling through this. But at least I sound like an addict, I guess. And that's probably what is happening here. At least I still have the ability to stop it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Aren't we all? A hundred percent. No, I agree. You know, where I felt much more productive and it can't always be like this. Like sometimes you just got to get projects done, but setting time limits for things. So blocking out your calendar where it's like, whatever it is that you need to do, whether it be tasks, if it's some sort of like repetitive process that whatever, but like if I have my day blocked out beforehand and And however you want to block it out, you know, I'll block it on half day increments, hours, whatever it is, depending on what you're doing. But if I could just be like, you know what? Like I can put everything, there's just something mental that happens where I'm like, I can put everything else away and I'm not going to interrupt it or break it up or feel the temptation to like start, you know, looking at my phone or having a conversation or doing something else because I know that it's going to end. I feel like more often than not, I end up being more productive when I set time limits on things than when I don't. And again, it doesn't happen all the time, but I'm trying to get better at this. I feel like this has helped a lot with the whole shutting off your brain at the end of the day. It's like, if you can look back and see, I actually did what I set out to do. And I told myself that I was stopping at this time. It's way easier for me most of the time to go hang out with the kids and be with the family now that work is over because... work is over. I told myself beforehand, work is over now. And inevitably, there's always stuff that can come up or maybe you need to jump back into something to reach a deadline, whatever it might be. Circumstances vary. But the underlying theme being that it seems that sometimes, at least for me, putting limits on myself with regard to time helps me push away a bunch of the distractions. And generally speaking, if you can set out and do what you... wanted to do in the beginning and you can see some sort of completion to that, or you know that you've made the progress that you were trying to make beforehand, seems to reduce a lot of anxiety and stress, at least for me.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. I think it was Cal Newport who also said, like, give yourself a ritual at the end of the day as you're closing your laptop, say, I am now done. Take all your notes, like whatever you need to write out to make sure that you're comfortable for the next day, like get it all out of your brain and then walk away. I've had some success with that. Not a lot. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'll be successful for like a couple of weeks, then I'll fall back into something else because inevitably some project will come up that, you know, you got to get done and then you fall into old habits. But anyway, I feel like that's the theme for all this stuff, right? You just got to keep trying. We just keep trying incrementally improving on
SPEAKER_00:stuff. Well, with that, Larry, how can people find you if they want to connect to maybe get some product management fractional help? What's the best way to reach out? Right now, it'll be via
SPEAKER_02:LinkedIn. Unfortunately, my landing page isn't up yet. I'm hoping to have that within the next week or two. That'll be a bit more descriptive on the services that I'm providing and whatnot. But yeah, I mean, hopefully we'll see. I'm feeling pretty excited right now about this opportunity and kind of getting into more of the consulting fractional work. But I don't know. This is another... Just
SPEAKER_00:another step of another journey. We'll see how it goes. And then Lance, how can people find you? We haven't done much self-promoting. If you want to make your pitch.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. You can always find me at LanceHRobbins.com and email Lance at LanceHRobbins.com. And of course, I'm on LinkedIn most actively. I'm a bit of a social media minimalist in other areas. So find me there.
SPEAKER_00:And during my month of social media break, you can find me at JoshuaWold.com. I'll just be there writing my thoughts. I posted something today. And if you have any feedback for the podcast, email at fractional.fm. Thank you so much for listening.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you.
