The Power of A Shame Free Me With Sara Fisk

Sara Fisk is showing up for you today with a power and love that will rock your world. She owns every inch of who she is and does it without shaming any of it. It is only with honesty and radical acceptance that we can truly execute the ownership necessary to make a new choice about who we want to be in the world and what we want to create; but without leadership, ownership and true connection to all the parts of who we are, we have given away our power to change it.

Join us in this power packed revolution of love and leadership that gives you the permission to radically love who you are and to embrace a new definition of leadership that invites you to offer that kind of opportunity and excavation of power and potential to others.

If you love this episode, share it on your favorite social media platform so your friends can hear it too.

Register for the grand finale, live event happening May 19th-21st at ShadowSideLeadershipSummit.com where you are going to get an entire weekend of value packed, heart felt love and support from this amazing team of leaders that are walking this path right along side you.

See you there!

You can find more of Sara on her website at http://www.sarafisk.coach or on her social media channels @sarafiskcoach, or go check out The Ex Good Girl Podcast on all major podcasting platforms. This coach is fire, friends. You're welcome :) 

Transcript

Hello my friends and welcome back to the Identity Factor Podcast. As you know, we're doing something very special this month, and we are talking about identity and leadership as it relates to the mental health and emotional health challenges that all of us as humans go through. And so we're here to talk about what leadership means, what mental health and mental fitness really means, and to open up a whole new conversation to what it means to.

Be the most effective, most alive, most joyful humans that we can as we walk through this journey, this path that we're all on, to really live a life that feels authentic, that feels good to us. And so today we're talking with Sarah Fisk. She's the host of the Ex Good Girl Podcast. She's the creator of the Stop People Pleasing Coaching Program.

That helps people who are socialized as women to understand why they people please to begin to recognize the role of patriarchy and unconscious programming as it relates to people pleasing so that they can learn to feel and process their emotions so that they can defeat the brain bully. That so many of us carry around inside our brain and she helps women be able to do all of this and so much more in order to actually create safe and doable ways to stop people pleasing and start having their own backs a hundred percent of the time so they can, they can start learning how to trust what they want.

What they wanna do with their lives, their time, and their unique creative energy. And so I am so honored and just deeply excited to be able to jump into this conversation with you. Sarah, is there anything else that you'd like to say before we dive into this, this conversation? Yeah. The stop people pleasing.

That's exactly right. We also throw in some stopping perfectionism and codependency as well, just for good measure. Okay. I have been a coach for almost five years now, and the work that I do with women is a hundred percent autobiographical. I was completely just stuck in people pleasing and perfectionism and a, a lot of codependent relationships.

And I think, um, I'm turning 50 this year, and so I think. That women kind of come up on important events. Sometimes it's something like a birthday or a children leaving the home after they've grown up or a job change, and they just find themselves in a place where they feel stuck. And so those are the women that I love to help.

Yeah. There's something about you that I have always loved so much, and I told you this before, like you just create such a sense of safety. Like where, what is that all about? Have you always had that? That's such a good question. I don't think so. I think what I think my superpower is love loving people.

Um, and learning to love myself the same way I love other people has been an amazing process and journey for me. Hmm. Um, when I work with a client, I, I mean, I'm feeling this like sensation in my heart right now just thinking about it. I just, I want, I imagine myself creating like a bubble around us and then anything that they need to say, anything that needs to come out is safe.

There's room for it and it belongs. So when I think about coaching clients and having been a a, you know, I have a, a, a coach and sometimes there's parts of us that we try to hide or we try to minimize because we are afraid that if we say this thing out loud, um, like for example, one of the things that was hard for me to say out loud was I didn't always love being a mother.

Like I was born into a religious organization that, uh, the Mormon church, uh, church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is what they like to be called, I believe in people calling, uh, I, I believe in calling people what they want to be called. Mm-hmm. And so I was raised to really kind of deify motherhood.

And so when I had this feeling in my body that. Was not consistent with that. And I wanted to say it. I felt like I, it would be bad. Like it would be bad to say I have five children and sometimes I do not wanna be a mother. It feels like a huge mistake. It feels like there's other things I'd rather be doing.

I don't know how I'm not doing a good job. And so when I had a coach hold a safe space for me to say those things and explore those things, it was magic. And that's what I try to do. That is so beautiful. I love it. And what a great segue into everything that we're gonna talk about too, because this is exactly like what my brain has been really living in curiosity around, is this question about what does it mean to be a leader?

Cuz we're doing this podcast series for leaders and entrepreneurs. Talking about, truly about mental and emotional health, about the shadow side of, of our humanity. And I think for me, one of the things that I have noticed is that I have at times felt such pressure to hide the shadow. Yeah. To deny that part of myself.

Because in my mind I've had these, these stories about what, what it means to be a leader. And I look at these leaders in the industry. And for sure they have it all together. They're confident and they're strong and they're, their messaging is clear and they know who they're here to help and they go and they just nail it every time.

Right. And there's this, like this, this comparison that I find myself having. That creates such stress in, in a lot of different ways. And, and so everything that you're saying is, I think so beautiful. And so then it, I'll just let you kind of expound on that a little bit. When we talk about leadership, what do you think, what does being a leader mean to you within this context?

Such a great question. I think the definition is actually changing, and I don't know if it's changing for just me personally or for the people that I, it seems like it's more than just me because what you said, you know, a leader is someone who, who has it all together and it's like we can look to that person for the correct or the right.

Way to do something. I think that's what the definition has been. Mm-hmm. And I think that we leader shop, right? We, we look around for who is the person who is going to tell me how to do this thing, right? So that I can have what they have. Yes. And leadership has been a lot about finding someone to imitate.

I think a leader is someone who shows you how to excavate. What is already in you. Oh, that's beautiful. So it's the difference between imitation and excavation. Yes. That I have found to be the most powerful type of leadership is in the coaches that I've chosen to work with. And some of the, you know, uh, people who have kind of more visibility than I have.

What I find about them is that they point me back to me. And they give me a chance to, you know, consider some different points of view. But then ultimately they put me in the driver's seat, the seat of sovereignty and authority in my life, and they say, no, you do it. Mm-hmm. You figure it out. I'm not gonna be the one to tell you how this should look in your life.

Mm-hmm. And in fact, I am going to remove myself from any position of authority, and you and I are. Um, even if they don't say this explicitly, I feel like we're like colleagues or we're like co-creating something together. There is not a hierarchy of ideas or abilities. Yeah. They point me back to me. Yeah.

I think that is so amazing and so beautiful and it's been such a relief. For me to begin to really embody, allow myself to embody this new framework of leadership. I have just felt myself wanting to throw away the old and be like, no, because I don't like, no wonder I'm feeling so much pressure. Yeah. And anxiety.

And stress. And it's like if I'm trying to imitate something else outside of myself, that's not true to who I am. Like that's just like, what if it's all a lie? What if that's not what being a leader means? Right? What if that's not what leadership really is? And can you be a leader? Without people following, can you be a leader without a, a, a, a following, right.

I think for so many of us, it's like, oh, well, you know, we look at Glennon Doyle or Brene Brown or Oprah or whoever, right? And it's like, well these, obviously these people have these huge followings of people or social media. We compare to other coaches and it's like, what if like that has nothing to do with the power or the impact that this person is having in the world.

And aside from that, what if that isn't even the measure of leadership? What if the measure of leadership is something internal that you do? Um, I love that because what I teach is that the opposite of people pleasing is actually self-leadership. Right. It is lessening. So my definition of people pleasing is over connection to people outside of you and under connection to yourself.

So what that just means is that people outside of you are calling the shots because they know how to do it right? They're the ones who have it all figured out. They have the life or the whatever that you think you should have, and so you over connect to their opinions, their advice. What, what they do and don't do.

And you are under connected to yourself and reversing that where you are more connected to yourself, you are, you still maintain connections with other people because relationships are essential for human happiness, growth and awareness and just stability. Yeah. But your first and strongest connection is to yourself, what do I want?

What serves me? What. Enlivens me. What gets me outta bed? What gets me going? What desires do I have? And then I hold those, yeah. In balance with my relationships, but my primary job is to lead myself. Yes. It's that leadership and it's like, and when you have that self leadership, that internal leadership, What I think is so interesting is, is what I hear you saying is like that then you create a relationship with yourself where it's not that you don't have or care about the relationships with others, but your relationship with yourself is what informs those relationships rather than the other way around.

Absolutely. That's exactly the, yeah, the, the thing that I'm talking about it, and usually people pleasers and perfectionists and people who have codependent relationships, other people's needs and wants matter more. And so like, if you can imagine the, the scales right there, theirs are heavier and get more time, brain, space and energy and, and when you engage in self-leadership and self connection, They're, they're held with the, at least the same weight.

Right. And that is such a new experience for so many people who are socialized as women. Totally. Yeah. Totally. I love it. Well, and then it also, to me now I'm thinking too about, so you said something earlier about when you were talking about working with coaches and this idea of leadership and, and defining a leader as someone who's really.

There to that, that what they're doing when they're, when they're living in that leadership role is that they're really pointing you in, holding up a mirror to show you who you really are, right. To show you the truth of who you are. And so when we talk about that, And when it kind of comes into this idea of, you know, kind of looking at our shadow sides or looking at these parts of us that we oftentimes would rather just sort of deny or avoid or push away or pretend isn't there, right.

That we kind of, we, we see them as bad and wrong about ourselves. Right. And so what I think is so interesting, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, is this idea of like, when we look at these, this idea of leadership and these people who, who, who choose to embody and step into that. What do you think is the role of these experiences?

When we talk about, you know, mental and emotional health and the, and the, and the different shadows that we all carry, what is the value or the importance of those as it pertains to stepping into this leadership role in a meaningful way? That's a great question. Um, I think. If I'm understanding you, what you're asking is, what is the role of recognizing that we have shadow sides, first of all?

Mm-hmm. And then embracing them. And then embracing them. And so for me, um, in primarily in the work I have done with myself, and so what I find the most important thing to do is to recognize. That everyone has a shadow side. You don't come into the human experience without having it, and that your shaming or hiding of it actually increases the amount of space that it takes up in your life.

And so, first of all, to just recognize that this is a, this is a normal human thing, and there's a difference between. Experiencing your shadow side in its purest form, and then judging yourself for having a shadow side. And let me say what I mean. So let's go back to my example of, you know, having these feelings of guilt and shame and regret around motherhood.

So what was happening was two things. Number one, I was feeling guilt and shame and regret, but then I was layering on criticism. Judgment. Attacking myself. Doubting myself, and so the. The size of the experience, if you can imagine mm-hmm. Was, was so much bigger because my guilt and shame and regret, you know, let's just say that was about the size of a grapefruit.

Mm-hmm. But then I would layer on criticism and judgment and self blame and guilt, and I would attack myself. And now I'm experiencing something about the size of a beach ball. Mm-hmm. Because of the additional self-judgment that was layering on top of that. So I think the very first critical step is to separate those two and realize that the criticism and the self blame and the, and the self-judgment that is the optional part of this experience.

Hmm. Yeah, that it is normal to have some regret. As a human, it is normal to feel some shame and some guilt about things. Those are normal human emotions, and so if I can just stay with those emotions, I can actually make some progress on them, maybe even resolve them, but as long as they're covered up with all the criticism and shame and judgment, I never actually just resolve what is the heart of the problem.

Yeah. Totally. I just stay outside in judgment and self-criticism all the time and beat myself up relentlessly. Totally. And here's why I think that matters so much. Yeah. If a woman or an entrepreneur or a it, it doesn't really matter how you, you know, where, how you're socialized, but if you live with yourself as your own bully, you are not safe anywhere because you are with you all the time.

And so understand this sense of safety that we don't have. We're anxious, we're, you know, we're fearful. We're worried. We're afraid. Some of that we are contributing to when we allow ourselves to terrorize and bully and beat ourselves up. And now we're gonna, let's, let's, are you okay with going deeper into this conversation?

Cause I'm loving it. Like, cuz this is what comes up for me next. I love So the shadow sides that you kind of identified here for yourself, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I heard you say was that your shadows were guilt, shame, and regret. Yes. And that when you, when you, when you didn't allow yourself to just embrace that.

And learn from those things that you, you kind of started to, to then layer on the shame and the self-judgment and the criticism. And so what I heard you say is that not only did it grow the experience of the shadow and everything there, but you, you, you really created this a place where you didn't feel safe, right?

So you just sort of, um, enlarged the whole experience. And what I think is interesting here is there's a couple things that my brain is now going into curiosity around. And the first thing. And I'm just gonna say that first and keep my a, d d brain in line here cuz there's so many, but like, let's ask this question first.

Sarah. Why do you think our brains want to go into shame and self-judgment when, when there's a shadow? Because it's what we've been taught to do. Well, there's two things we've never been taught to just sit with the emotion. Right. We've never been taught, um, like I, I was a kindergarten teacher and so I saw a lot of emotional development on display, and if two kids get in an argument or a fight, then it's my job as the teacher to separate them and to, you know, Resolve the, the altercation.

I'm not sitting with each of those kids and saying, Hey honey, tell me what happened. That sadness, that's totally normal. Yeah. Let's just feel sad that that happened. That anger totally normal. Let's just feel it for a minute. I am, I'm punishing them. Right? You over there in time out until you're ready to be nice and apologize, you over there?

Mm-hmm. And so there is a lack of emotional intelligence. Across the board, adults and children alike, we're never taught to just sit with our emotions. That's number one. Number two, in the absence of someone telling us this is totally normal, it's totally normal to get mad and wanna hit someone that's ver, that's a very normal human experience.

Let's just sit with it and feel it and see what happens in the absence of someone doing that for us, the mind of a child goes to, I'm bad. There's something wrong with me. This is my fault. I did this. My teacher is mad at me. There is in, in, in a lot of healthy child relationships, there is an attachment to p to the adults in their life, to the teachers, to their parents, to the people who they see as loving and taking care of them.

And they need that attachment. And so when someone to whom they are attached, punishes them, A child's brain will always go to, I'm bad. There's something wrong with me. And so that grows up. Nobody ever checks in on like, Hey, what is your self-talk like? Yeah. You know, sixth grader, seventh grader, eighth grader, how are you talking to yourself?

And so unchecked, that type of, I'm bad, I'm wrong. There's something wrong with me. Grows up as a part of your identity, and then it's just. It is. You see it all over in the way our society rewards certain behavior and punishes other behavior. Mm-hmm. It's just confirmed. If I am not pretty skinny, smart, all of the things that our society values, then there is something wrong with me.

I. Yeah. And I, and I think for myself, like one of the things that I've noticed is like, so when, when I, when there's a, like what I hear you talking about is like a, like a core wounding happens. Yes. Right? Yes. Like as a, as a child and at a often very young ages. And these woundings, I don't think only happen as children, they happen as adults too.

Right. In relationships, people get wounded, like. And, you know, people, like, there's so many people that carry belief systems and identities that from past relationships, you know, from exes or people they've dated or even coworkers, like, there's just so many. Um, but it's interesting to notice how those co, those woundings often follow a pattern.

Absolutely. And that's the part that I think is so interesting is that like whatever that core wound was that you had as a child, right. Whether it was neglect or Right. You didn't, you, it's like, What I, what I notice is that a circumstance will happen, right? Someone will say like, can you just stop, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Can you just stop talking or get outta the way, or whatever it is. And that child creates a belief system in that moment. There's a sentence that goes through their brain that says, I'm not good enough. Yeah. Or whatever it is. Like it's not okay for me to be, have a need or I need to, you know, and they create this, like this I am statement.

Mm-hmm. I am unwanted. I am not good enough. And then, and then I think that's where, like you said, all these, all these protective mechanisms start to get layered on. Like, okay, like now I'm going to hide that part of me in the closet. I'm going to get good grades. I'm going to become, you know, really helpful.

I'm going to, you know, what am I gonna do to fix that part of me? To fix it or hide it. To fix it or hide it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so then all these personas and we can live our whole lives. I think in this, this persona, all because again, we are, we are not, Like you said, we're not taught how to just embrace those parts of us.

Yeah. That it's completely normal to be fearful and angry and worried and anxious. The the other thing that kind of comes to my mind is that what we value in children, especially in school systems, is compliance. Compliance and, um, obedience. Going along with what they're asked to do. I mean, I have five children, so.

We had a lot going on at home, and when I was a school teacher, there was a, there was a lot going on, right? When you have all those little bodies and, and I consider myself to be a fantastic mom and I really was a good teacher. I tried to do my best. But when you have 28 little bodies in a room that all had, you know, we, and this, this hap this is happening everywhere today.

You cannot honor. An individual, you, you simply can't, the system is not set up for it. So I, before we get off into like, yeah. My thoughts about public school, what I'm, what I'm trying to to say is that unless a space is provided on purpose for a child to understand their emotions, it doesn't happen.

Organically anywhere. Hmm. Because what they're, what children are being asked to do all day long is actually reject. They wanna stand up and run around when they're told to sit in their seat. They want to raise their hand and sing and dance. When it's time to take a test. They want to, you know, do all of these things.

And c, compliance to the rules means they have to act against themselves. Yeah, and noticing too that I think that so, so much of the reason that so much of this is perpetuated is because we have all these adults who have never learned. Absolutely. You sit with their own emotions. We have all these adults who have never learned that it's okay for you to have this shadow side.

Absolutely. It's okay for you to feel angry. It's okay that you are a little bit controlling. Sometimes it's okay to admit that you struggle with depression. It's okay, right? Or whatever it is. And that like what if none of it's a problem? Like what is like, and that's I think what's so beautiful about when you talked about the guilt and shame and regret.

Like it's okay that you have shame, it's okay that you feel regret. And like when we can embrace that, then we don't have to layer on all the extra stuff and like, is it possible? That there's something inside of that shadow, if you will. Is it possible that there's something inside of that emotion or that behavior or that thing that you're trying to push away?

What if there's something of value in there that is where the value is? Exactly That. That is that, that what what you just said. I don't think there's a question that is where the value and the most growth is, and one of the things that's so. I mean, nefarious is the only word that came to mind, and I don't, you know, nec, I don't wanna infuse it with a lot of drama.

Yeah. But one of the things that happens when you're spinning outside in criticism and judgment and self-doubt, you're asking yourself a bunch of questions that are not actually questions. They're accusations. Like, what is wrong with you? What is the, what is your problem? Why do you keep doing this? When are you gonna get better?

Why are you like this? Like those, those aren't actually questions, right. Their accusations and they don't have constructive answers. Hmm. And so, so much of the population that I work with who are people socialized as women, they spend hours and hours and hours ruminating and berating themselves, wishing they had said something different, worrying about the next encounter they're gonna have when they're not gonna know what to say, worrying about that person's opinion or that person's opinion.

And. All. I mean, no wonder we're so tired, right? All of that energy is just going to questions that have no good answer, no constructive answer, and we are, we are not just feeling the regret and shame and guilt. What do you think mental health really means? I think mental health is the ability. To look at your mental state, your emotional state, and even your physical state, because there, there is no separating the relationship between those three states.

Mm-hmm. The state of your body, the state of your, your emotions, the state of your, your mental processes and, and the work that we do mentally. I think it's having the ability to look at those states and ask, is this working for me? Mm. Is how I feel mentally. Is it working? Is it producing the kind of life that I want to be living?

My emotions, the way I experience them, is it producing the experience that I want to be having? And if not, what tools are available to me? To try and to work with these malleable processes because everyone, no matter how old you are, you can make progress mentally. You can make progress emotionally, you can make progress physically.

Mm-hmm. So what are the tools that give me the type of changes, progress, awareness that would help me improve the experience that I'm having? Okay. And what do you think is the biggest lie that we need to expose related to this topic of mental and emotional health?

That's a great question, and the first thing that comes to mind is there's work either way. It feels uncomfortable either way. Hmm. I think, I don't know. I don't know that I think it's a lie necessarily, but one of the first truths that I teach the people I work with just around people pleasing, for example, is that it is highly uncomfortable to people.

Please. You find yourself doing things you don't wanna do. Ruminating about other people's opinions, you know, squeezed out of your own life in so many instances. That's uncomfortable. Yep. But it is also highly uncomfortable to not people please. Yeah. Totally uncomfortable. Yeah. To, to let people be wrong about you.

Totally. And so I think that's the first thing to understand, but I think it's actually good news. Yeah. Because if the direction that I want to go in is less people pleasing, it's gonna cost me some discomfort, but I'm already uncomfortable. So I'm just going to tolerate a different kind of discomfort and learn how to do and learn how to tolerate that or learn how to navigate that.

So, and then that brings me back to the question I was originally gonna ask. So now we have kind of some definitions for these terms. What is it about that, that shadow side, if you will, that makes you a, a more effective leader? That helps you to be able to hold that mirror. Right? You talked about leaders in your life holding that mirror and showing you the truth of who you are.

Why is it not only normal to go through these mental health challenges, but why is it essential if you wanna be that kind of leader in the world, what is it about this journey that's so important to take? First of all, I love, um, I think it is very easy, and I think we see it happen a lot, that someone is in a position of leadership and it changes who they are.

It um, it creates a hierarchy where they're at the top in their own mind and they're the ones who know, they're the ones who, um, are the experts. And I think fully embracing and loving my shadow side has made that, um, Almost repulsive to me. Mm-hmm. In that I am just another human. There are some things that I have figured out how to do that have been very helpful to me, but I am never in the position to tell another person what they should do with their lives because I don't know what I.

I am in a position to, to be able to do is to point them back to themselves to help them better understand what they want and what is important to them so that they can decide. So I think my shadow side, which it's funny, I don't even think of it as a shadow side anymore. I just think of it as like it's just part of me.

There are. Parts of me that I enjoy. I definitely enjoy when I am, um, optimistic and happy and that I really love that. But when I am sad and bruised and crushed and, um, hopeless, that's part of me too. So, Hmm. I don't experience myself as split in any way. I am whole all the time. And although I don't enjoy maybe an afternoon of sobbing regret, it is still an in, it's still an essential part of me.

And so it allows me to love those parts of other people the same way. That I love them and me, and to tell other people that part of you that you are running from, or trying to hide or trying to squash, that's, there's very valuable information there. Hmm. And to help them to come to terms and integrate with, and listen to and have a relationship with the shadow side of themselves as well.

Hmm.

Hey, if you're enjoying this episode, I wanna invite you to come join us on May 19th through the 21st for the Shadow Side Leadership Summit. It's gonna be an entire weekend where we're gonna dive into these conversations around identity and leadership, around mental and emotional health, around how to support ourselves so that we can truly lead others in a more impactful way, that we also get to experience connection, and joy along the journey.

Shadow side leadership summit.com. Go sign up and we'll see you inside. I love that definition of leadership. I love the idea of creating a world and watching a world unfold where this is like what the new leaders of today are going to be, right? Yeah. Like just letting go of that old paradigm where it's like, you know, influence and power and you know, the massive followings and all these things.

And like what, like, I don't know, like what if it's not about that at all? What if it's like literally like, what if this new style of leadership is totally a leadership of the heart? Well, and here's, here's what is so interesting. I just had an example of this kind of come to mind. Um, in the religious congregation in which I was raised, anger is bad.

Anger is, is. Wrong. You should not let yourself become angry. And there are special, even like condemnations of women who get angry because it's even worse, I guess, if you're a woman. And the other day I was watching, uh, TV with my husband and some kind of program came on and there was a political figure who came on the screen and I said, I hate him.

And my husband said, whoa, that doesn't sound very nice. That's, that's, And I said, yeah, it's, it's not nice. Yeah. And he said, but how horrible to hate someone. And I said, I don't mind it at all. Mm-hmm. I actually, you know, I have these reasons that I like and in that moment to own my anger and my intense dislike, even hatred of this person.

I knew that I didn't wanna stay there right in that emotion, but to own it, to admit it, and to defend it as like, this is my right to hate someone if I want to. Mm-hmm. And this is my, um, this is how I feel right now, and I'm gonna honor that. And even the person who my, you know, arguably love most in the world, my husband, you don't have the authority to talk me out of it or to shame it.

And it's, it's my, it's. How do I wanna say it? It is true to what I am feeling right now. Yeah. And so there would've been a time when I would've felt guilty or bad, or maybe even ashamed of having those feelings, or I wouldn't have said anything at all. I would've just hidden it. Hmm. And so I share that example because it's not necessarily flattering for me Right.

To, to hate or to dislike someone enough to, to verbalize it. But it was the owning of it. It was the, um, recognizing it and defending it as my right. That actually allowed it to just go away. Right. Beautiful. I didn't judge it. I didn't criticize it. Right. And then the feeling was gone. And if I looked at that political figure again, maybe today, who knows what I would feel.

Yeah. But what I love is that the owning of it, the, and the not shaming of it is actually what allows it to just evaporate a hundred percent. Because Yeah, when we shove it down, it's like the beach ball, right? Like they're not, it's like nothing happens when you just shove a beach ball into water, just stays there until it hits you in the face again.

Right? Like I love that analogy. But when we allow it to come up and embrace it, it's like also what it allows us to do is find like the valve on it. Right. And like, let the air out of that. Yeah. It's like, okay, I can find the source of this anger, of this hatred, but like, you can't find the source of something if you're not willing to look at it and like a hundred embrace it and like, you know, so I think that's such a beautiful, um, a beautiful example.

Yeah. I love that. And, um, And it gives, again, as it gives, it gives other people permission to do that for themselves, which I think is a beautiful part of that leadership definition that you offered. Right? It's really a person giving other people permission to be who they are. And you can't do that if you're not willing to do that scary, risky thing, right?

Yeah. And, and you can't decide, do I wanna keep being this person, right. Do, do I want to continue, you know, in this, in this particular way when you're shaming it and judging it. You've lost your power to change it. What do you think that those shadows have been trying to protect you from asking for help?

For sure. Allowing myself to be nurtured and receive. Um, and in, in. In terms of like just building a business, if we're, if we're, you know, thinking about the entrepreneurs who are listening mm-hmm. It's, they've, they try to protect me from feeling what they think are like the un tolerable emotions, like frustration, um, irritation, um, Just feeling, feeling dumb, feeling stupid.

Like why didn't I know that? Why didn't I know how? I listened to somebody explained like a funnel the other day and I was like, oh, that's what a funnel is thing, right? I didn't even know that. And so I think protecting me from the emotions that I think will harm me or hurt me or just be uncomfortable.

In addition to deeper things, like mm-hmm. Allowing myself to be taken care of, allowing myself to ask for help and not feel weak or, um, you know, like, like I, like I should know how to do this for myself. That's a big one that I still feel. Mm-hmm. Okay. So if that's what they're protecting you from, what do you think?

Like in those moments, like when those, those shadows that, that are there to protect you when they start to kind of like lose their hold over you. Have you noticed like what are, what are their favorite ways to sneak back in and make you think that you need them again? They just talk nicer to me than they used to.

Here's, here's what I mean by that. Like maybe five years ago I would've had the thought, like, what is the matter with you where. Where were you when everybody was learning that? Like, idiot, what, what were you doing? Hmm. So that's what it would've sounded like. Now it just sounds like, oh, you didn't know that.

Hmm. Interesting. Like the judgment is a little softer. The, the, the voice doesn't yell at me quite as loud, but I still have a lot of, like, you should have known that. Like I, I described it to, uh, my coach the other day. I was like, it feels like I haven't done my homework. Like it's test day. Mm-hmm. And everybody else has done their homework and they're all showing up and passing the test and I'm like, uh, I don't know what I'm doing here, guys.

So it just gets sneakier, um, and a little nicer. Okay. So it's like you kind of, it makes it easier for you to, in, in indulge it a little bit. Abs Yeah. Yeah, because. Here. I mean, here's the interesting thing about our thoughts. Like we think our thoughts in our own voice. In our heads. Mm-hmm. It would be very easy to detect like Darth Vader's voice.

You Right. What's the matter with you? That would be very easy for me to, to detect. But I think the sneakiness of. Of the, the fact that we think our thoughts in our own voice, and it's like my voice. Yeah. And so I have to catch myself lying to me, which, which makes it a little, a little sneakier. What about the, what about the light sides of yourself?

Like, you know what your shadow sides are? What are the light sides, the sides that you love for people to see? I, one of the things that really working on my self-criticism has enabled me to do, which I just never, I never would've guessed I get to experience. I just love being me, all of me. I love it when I'm.

Hating on a political figure that I, you know, think is wrong. I love it when I am with a client and, and engaging in, you know, coaching in a way that I can tell is so beneficial for them. I just, I get to really enjoy being me, and that has come from. Stopping the voice of criticism and just kind of being on that as a, as a constant work in the world, but also learning to really, deeply, deeply trust myself.

And what I trust is not that I won't screw up, I will definitely make, you know, decide later that I wish I had done something differently or not like the way things worked out, but, I will, because I know that I will never intentionally engage in beating myself up. I will never intentionally mistreat myself.

What it allows me to do is to take bigger chances. Yeah. And risk bigger things that, that are, you know, for me, risky or, or, um, or a chance, because I know that if it fails, I'm just gonna feel the failure. Right. I'm not gonna layer on the criticism and the judgment. And so, yeah, loving being myself in the world and deeply, deeply trusting that no matter what happens, I'll handle it and I won't judge it or shame it.

Yeah, it's an amazing feeling. It is. I love it. It's such an amazing feeling. So what are the things when you're feeling out of touch with that part of you, when you're feeling out of touch with the light sides? What are some things that help you to reconnect and establish that? Again, my very most favorite thing to do is to just take my hands and put them on my chest.

That's a place where I feel a lot of loving, connected, just present energy. Um, that's where I feel all my anxiousness, my fear, my worry, and so to just take my hands and put them on my chest or my forehead or my cheeks and just say, I'm listening, I'm here. I'm paying attention because I find for me that the disconnection from my body is the disconnection from, from me because that is the place where there is so much of my emotional wisdom and my, that, that kind of, um, gold that is, you know, my feelings.

Yeah. What's going on. And so if I find myself. Just feeling untethered. Like I, I don't exactly know what's going on or I'm not feeling myself. I go back to my body. I love it. So I'm putting my hands on my body. Yep. Taking some deep breaths. That's exactly what I do too. I'm here, I'm listening, and then just what's going on.

Yeah. What, and again, coming back to that safety, right, having that safe space for yourself, like it's okay. Yeah. Whatever's here, like it's, it's all allowed. It belongs. It's important. Yeah. Yeah. All of that. Yeah, absolutely. I love it. And what advice would you give to the leaders or the entrepreneurs that are listening to this, that are secretly hiding a part of themselves that they feel ashamed of or afraid of?

And that's a good question. Handle. Yeah. Such a good question. I would ask them to consider, What if that shadow side of you is actually where the biggest learning, the biggest growth, the biggest change, the biggest success. Financial success, emotional success. Uh, business success. What if it's all there hiding in that shadow?

It has been my experience that it is. Would you be willing to look at that shadow and to engage with it and learn from it and integrate it if that were the key to everything else? Oh, so powerful. I love it. Sarah, how can people find more of you? I, um, I'm on Instagram, Sarah Fisk, coach, and Facebook, Sarah Fisk Coaching, and my website is Sarah Fisk, s a r a f as in fun, i s k.coach.

Love it. Thank you so much for being here. I had such a blast with you today. This was amazing. Thanks, Robin.

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