Ep19: Mistakes leaders make when developing subordinates with Gen. Scott Brower (R) part 2

General(R) Scott Brower was among the first Americans in the Afghanistan Invasion after 9/11. Gen(R) Brower is a decorated Green Beret Commander with nearly 30 years of active service. He also led the State of Tennessee's anti-COVID task force and is currently the Director of the Bass Military Scholars Program at Vanderbilt University.

Unlocking the Leadership Secrets: Retired General Scott Brower reveals the game-changing mistakes to avoid when leading your team. Get ready to elevate your leadership skills to the highest rank!

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No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

LAH S2 EP 2 edited

[00:00:00] Sean: We're so glad you found us here at the Leadership After Hours podcast. If you're finding value in this content, please hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you're on. This allows us to spread the modern leadership revolution, plus you don't wanna miss out on a single weekly episode. Let's get into it.

[00:00:16] Scott: Welcome to the Leadership After Hours podcast. Real Talk with real leaders committed to creating better companies and a better world. Presented by stronger leaders, stronger profits. With your host, Sean Patton. 

[00:00:32] Sean: Alright, well welcome back to part two with Retired General Scott Brower. First episode we, if you didn't listen to it, go back and listen to it 'cause we had some real nuggets and some, some great conversation and, and takeaways.

[00:00:45] Sean: As we get into, you know, part two here You know, you were part of Special Forces community when nine 11 happened, I was a freshman at West Point. When that happened just, just arrived. So I was just beginning my military journey. I definitely changed. I. Obviously my trajectory, but also my even though I saw my career going and, and I think it changed, you know, the country in a lot of ways and you were sort of the ground floor of all that.

[00:01:13] Sean: So can you kind of explain what that experience was like for you? 'cause I think yours was a little different than maybe the rest of us that were watching it on 

[00:01:19] Scott: tv. Yeah. So I, I was a company commander of Fist Bus Forces Group on nine 11 and we, we had a mission we were supposed to be leaving. On the 1st of October to take a mission in, in Kuwait where our unit had kept a company of Special forces soldiers since Desert Storm.

[00:01:38] Scott: Mm-hmm. Right. Just to keep our eyes on Iraq. And and because we were ready to go when nine 11 happened, the, the leadership made the decision that our company headquarters, along with two additional operational attachments, were gonna be the first ones to leave. After you know, for the response.

[00:01:57] Scott: Mm-hmm. So on the 4th of October, we got on a plane and, and took off for Karshik, Kaaba, Uzbekistan and set the initial foundation for what was to become right Fifth Special Forces Group's movement into Afghanistan to defeat the Taliban. So, you know, you talk about a time where. You know, the military plans for everything.

[00:02:17] Scott: Well, we had not planned right to have to go into Afghanistan, a landlocked country on the other side of the world with no US military bases close enough. Right. To be able to launch from. Mm-hmm. So there was planning going on every day, every minute. And, and so some of our soldiers were involved with that.

[00:02:35] Scott: But, but largely what we walked into is a, a huge amount of unknown. Yeah. Right. Which is right where our soldiers thrive. Right. Hey, they, they had a basic understanding of what we were supposed to do, defeat the Taliban. Mm-hmm. And rid, you know, Al-Qaeda safe haven in the country of Afghanistan. And, and our guys went in, they linked up with, you know, the Northern Alliance and, and other freedom fighters inside that were opposed to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

[00:03:00] Scott: And over the next couple of months, right. They, they in very creative manners on horseback, on, you know John Deere, Gators a whole bunch of different manners of, of movement, right? They, they were able to accomplish that in a very, very quick manner. What 

[00:03:16] Sean: were some of the, I mean, I think that's a, such a unique moment in time for the country and even within the military who is, you know, especially in the special operations community, we're always mission.

[00:03:28] Sean: Focused right. Missionary, like, what's the problem? What are we gonna, you know, what's the solution there? But that was such, I think, a different environment because it was, I'm sure, you know, inter-agency and there's so much pol political push, you know, behind it and what's the response gonna be And, and so many different.

[00:03:47] Sean: You know, even more actors involved, even just on our own side to try to coordinate and, and to get, you know, last episode you talked about the clarity from top to bottom. Yeah. So what, what were some challenges or, you know, what was that experience like of you trying to take this, these maybe a clear, clear point, clear mission end state, but.

[00:04:11] Sean: Who was gonna be involved and, and how, and yeah. That I imagine was a challenge in itself to navigate 

[00:04:18] Scott: it. It was right. But I think we were an adapting learning organization, right? That that wasn't afraid to admit we made a mistake or there was an error. There's a better way of doing it. I'll give you an example.

[00:04:30] Scott: Initially when our initial teams were on the ground in Afghanistan, the only way we were being resupplied was either to buy things locally off of the economy, right. Or we were being resupplied by United States Air Force aircraft, where supplies would be parachuted into us. Mm-hmm. And, you know, so.

[00:04:47] Scott: Initially, right. It, you know, the, the movement of the supplies would start all the way back in the United States, in the continental United States, and it would be moved from the US over to Germany and then maybe into Turkey, right? And eventually flown into Afghanistan. Well, everybody that had a good idea of what should be added.

[00:05:04] Scott: And, and put into the, the packs, right? So initially I told you some of the soldiers were on horseback. Mm-hmm. Well, so saddles and, you know, horse feed and blankets and all these other items were being added by people. We didn't ask for 'em, but they were being added. We. Right. And now they're being dropped in.

[00:05:22] Scott: And by the time we received them the soldiers that had been on horseback were off of 'em. Right now we're in vehicles again. Right. And movement. But nobody had bothered to communicate that to the people that had the good idea. Right. So very quickly we realized that wasn't a good idea. I. We need to put liaison officers at all these points, right?

[00:05:40] Scott: We need to have our people mm-hmm. That know what it is our soldiers are tasked to do at all of these stops along the way. So all of a sudden soldiers, you know, started leaving Fort Camel again and getting placed at all these other locations where supplies would move to us. Right. So great initiative, people that cared very much and thought they were helping, but it wasn't helping.

[00:06:00] Scott: Mm-hmm. Right. And we figured that out and we adjusted how we communicated. Mm-hmm. Right. By putting people that we could trust and that knew who we were in those locations. Right. Yeah. That 

[00:06:11] Sean: I. And, you know, it's that whole what is it, you know, professionals talk, logistics and, you know, what is it? And amateurs, amateurs tactics or something.

[00:06:17] Sean: Amateur tactics. That's right. Yeah. And, and I think we're, you know, different situ situation. But as you know, someone with sort of our background what we're seeing in Ukraine as an example right now of similar challenges and Complex political situation and multinational situation and, and how to clearly, you know, communicate and get the logistics through that is it's been very interesting as an outsider to, to watch.

[00:06:51] Sean: And you know, also to see some of the tactics and ideas that we know. We, you know, say we, I was in school, you know, you at the time we as a collective, you know, community. We're able to execute in an unconventional way in Afghanistan play out as part of a conventional war in Ukraine right now in Russia.

[00:07:11] Sean: And, you know, it's, it's, perfect is a strong word, but I almost, I'm almost marveled. I'm like, it seems like it's like almost a, like they're fighting a perfect war. Mm-hmm. I mean, not to get too, like war on this, you know, but like, it's like, You know, you see some of the stuff we see with some of the partisan stuff.

[00:07:25] Sean: You see the stuff with the information operations, the psychological operations, like, you know, all these, like this nerdy special ops stuff. I'm just like, wow, they're doing that. That's perfect. That's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah. You know, it's, it's really cool to see. Which I know is, you know, a culmination of years of preparation for, from people like 10 Special Forces group 

[00:07:41] Scott: and others.

[00:07:42] Scott: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. Really is Right. The difference in it, but the preparation. Right. And that, that gets back to where I was saying, you know, there was periods of time in our, our military where maybe the special operations community, conventional military didn't gel as well. Mm-hmm. But here, right.

[00:07:56] Scott: This, this is a high intensity fight that you're seeing right now where cities are being leveled. By the Russians. Right. I mean, this is urban combat that hasn't been seen since World War ii most likely. Yeah. And the intensity of it is, is right, that the casualty rates are just astronomical. The the lack of regard for human suffering and civilian casualties right, is again, you know, you'd, you'd have to go back wars to find something, you know, so abysmal.

[00:08:21] Scott: Mm-hmm. But. To see how our military has responded to assist right from outside, whether it's through training or arming or equipping some of the, the the efforts and then the God bless the Ukrainian military for what they're doing. Yeah. And, and their population. Right. It's just, it's, it's it, it, it tears your heart apart, but it's heartwarming to see, right?

[00:08:44] Scott: Mm-hmm. How, how they have stood together as well. Now people have rallied around them. Yeah. 

[00:08:49] Sean: I think it just shows the. And I'm, you know, biased from being an American and from my worldview, but I just think that as long as we can keep ourselves together, that. It shows the power of, of the free man. You know, these are conversations that started back in, you know, Sparta and Athens and a place like that where people talked about, you know, the, the, the spirit of, of someone who's actually fighting for their, their freedom for their homeland versus, you know, the mercenary or the slave or the soldier or something like that.

[00:09:21] Sean: Who's, Being forced into combat and just the, the, the will, the Battle of Wills. From an ideological standpoint, I think we're seeing, you know, play out from, you know, just it's, it almost gets to like the root of 

[00:09:36] Scott: humanity. Yeah. Unfortunately, I think, you know, All too often we have to find a crisis to allow us to show the best of ourselves, right?

[00:09:45] Scott: Mm-hmm. I always, I've, I've spoken numerous times about what happened on nine 11 and, and said, I wish on a daily basis, I can live in America of nine 12. Yeah, right? Because then everybody was pulling together. I've, I've spoken and, and gotten to know some of the police officers in New York City who said for their entire career, they didn't go through neighborhoods to cheers and collapse.

[00:10:06] Scott: Right. But, but that's exactly what happened on nine 12. Same for the firefighters. Right. Where Americans cared about each other and rallied around each other. I don't understand why it takes something like that to pull us together. Mm-hmm. When we allow trivial things, you know, and, and the media, and social media to pull us apart all too often, and I'm sorry, I just feel very strongly about that.

[00:10:26] Scott: Yeah. Right. It becomes a divisive. Entity and, and mechanism right. To, to try to divide us as opposed to unite us, right? It does, yeah. It's all too problematic. 

[00:10:36] Sean: Yeah, we could, you know, we'll have to do either on air offer one on that because I'm, I'm with you and you know, that's one of my that's part of my, you know, I'm talking about my book, you know the North Star and that's part of my North Star is helping, you know, to address that.

[00:10:51] Sean: And I think from a company perspective, you know, to pull it back to that level That, you know, one of the, you know you're gonna school, I'm gonna sound awful here, so I apologize on my military doctorate, it's been so long, but the title of it, but you know, those like principles of warfare, right?

[00:11:07] Sean: Yeah. And it comes to, you know, two principles that we talk about in the military a lot that I think other organizations can benefit from our unity of command and unity of effort. Yeah. And I think that, you know, while. Our representative democracy isn't necessarily set up for that. And in some ways it makes us more, more resilient, that we're not all aligned in way that diversity is good, but it does, it is an efficient and inside organizations I dunno, do you want to maybe explain the difference between unity of command and unity of effort and then if you've seen that in some of the organizations you've worked with, how.

[00:11:39] Sean: We can learn and, and apply 

[00:11:41] Scott: those principles. Yeah. So I I, I think one, you know, it goes back to the communication piece, right? It has to be communicated to the people what, what our purpose is, what direction we're going. Mm-hmm. I, I saw that when, when we served in fifth group together, right? Mm-hmm. When I was the deputy commander in 2010, right?

[00:11:55] Scott: We had soldiers in like 15 different countries on three continents, right? And you could have a company of 82 men with soldiers in, in four different countries, right? So, Knowing that unity of effort or unity of purpose was very, very difficult at the time. Right? And we started, right, I, I stole right from the State of the Union address.

[00:12:14] Scott: The state of the state address, and we started doing our own state of the, the Legion, right? Where we would bring in the leadership. I. To say, Hey, this is, here are our priorities, right? Here's the resources, so this is what I'm asking you to do. Here's your priorities, and make sure that it's very clear. So if you can't accomplish these right now, here it is, now's the time to tell me.

[00:12:33] Scott: Mm-hmm. Because if you're gonna sit there and be quiet, you're letting me know that you can accomplish what I just told you is your priorities, right? Or. You have the responsibility to let me know you can't because you don't have the time, money, resources, whatever it may be. Mm-hmm. But also, right. It was a time where I had the corporate leadership in there.

[00:12:50] Scott: Right. We, we, we developed two levels down, right? So as the group commander, deputy commander, I was going down to the company commanders, right? The battalion commanders, the company commanders and Sergeant Majors. And, and I wanted feedback from them if they thought we were off on our priorities or they didn't understand anything, they had the obligation.

[00:13:09] Scott: They were obligated to come back to me and say, Hey, sir, I don't think that's right. Right, because I don't have the time, the money, I have something more important. I think there's a better way of doing it, right? So, so we opened that up, right? Because that's their obligation as being part of a professional organization.

[00:13:25] Scott: They owed that to me, right? What I owed them again then was I owed them an answer, right? And all too often when people are, you know, they'll give input. They'll say, Hey, I don't think this is right. And here's a better way of building a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, right? Let's do it this way. And then, The change doesn't happen, but they never get any feedback as to why.

[00:13:47] Scott: Mm-hmm. Then people like, they don't care. They're not listening to me. Right. So I owed an answer back to 'em to say, I don't. If I don't have the money, we don't have the time. It's not a priority or I disagree. Mm-hmm. Right. All of those are okay. May not make the person happy, but at least I've answered them and I've explained to them my rationale and thought.

[00:14:08] Scott: Mm-hmm. Right. So now we can move again in, in the, in the right direction. Yeah. 

[00:14:13] Sean: I, so I think it's a couple things there. One is interesting. I had a conversation with a client last month actually, about sort of how the, the two down. Two up, yeah. And he had never heard of it, you know, to see of, and, and, and how you need to have that responsibility, that communication, and understand what's going on, two levels below you and two levels up to really keep that sort of unity of effort.

[00:14:35] Sean: And I think that's an important lesson to keep in mind. For a couple reasons. One, I also have seen companies and actually happening in my wife's company I talked everywhere. You've got somebody going three, four levels down and going direct, and that's just like, that's not good either, right? Yeah.

[00:14:51] Sean: It's like it's too far. Yeah. It, it, it, it's stepping on people's toes and you can't communicate it that way or, you know, you there's, or it's just directly subordinate direct above. And then you have no idea about the dissemination asset. Like if, am I telling this person actually getting down 

[00:15:04] Scott: to levels?

[00:15:04] Scott: Yeah. Yeah. That's the communication piece again though, right? Mm-hmm. And when you talk about, you know, where people are going and, and spending their time, I think what a mistake that leaders make. I. I don't know how often. Right. But mistake leaders make is when they're, they're working with their subordinates and they've done that job before.

[00:15:22] Scott: They remember how well they did that job. Mm-hmm. Right. When they were really, really good at it. They don't go back to when they were on the first day of that job. Maybe struggling to figure it out. Right. And learning. Mm-hmm. They have to take that into account as they're developing and mentoring. Right.

[00:15:35] Scott: Their subordinates Right to grow. Right. And they gotta allow them to grow and develop in those positions. Right? So they're not doing anything legal, moral, and ethical. Maybe it's not the best way of going about it, or maybe, maybe you don't know, maybe you've not seen it. Right. But maybe that's where that creative idea comes from, right?

[00:15:49] Scott: Right. Is when that, that junior leader has the, the confidence, right. And the belief that their, their leaders are gonna watch after 'em. They're gonna let them attempt and maybe fail. Mm-hmm. Right? And that's okay. Right? Because that's where that creative idea is gonna come from. Yeah. I, that's what I loved about those learning.

[00:16:05] Scott: The learning, right. The learning. That's what I loved about those sessions, right? Because God knows I didn't have the right answer all the time, but we had so many dedicated people inside the organization that were so talented, right? That when they knew they had a voice and they could speak up, right?

[00:16:19] Scott: Mm-hmm. Now you have the power of the whole right. Taking place. 

[00:16:22] Sean: That's, that's so critical. And and I want to, you know, as we sort of wrap, I have got a few questions on a wrap. One just 'cause a lot of people don't, we mentioned unity of effort. And unity of command. Yeah. Can you ex kind of define those for the lay people and like what the difference is between the two?

[00:16:38] Scott: So, unity of effort, right? We're all marching towards that same purpose, right? Mm-hmm. The same objective, right? That's where we're gonna get to. Mm-hmm. Unity of command, I think slightly different where we're, we're all. Yeah, you, you may have tripped me up on that one there, Sean. No, you're good. Right?

[00:17:00] Sean: Well, I mean, and, and, and, and it's hard to put it into a civilian sort of lay layperson structure. Yeah, yeah. But, I, you know, to me, what, to me it's really about the messaging, right? From like, you know, yeah. 'cause if the, if the C Ffo is coming out and saying, these are our priorities, or you can do this and you can't do that, and then the CEO is saying something different, you don't have that one message coming from the same level.

[00:17:24] Sean: And it's probably, you know, one way to put it in terms of unity of command, but, so it's like, Because that can get confusing, right? Yeah. If you're, yeah. You know, if, if your manager is saying one thing and your senior manager is saying another, 

[00:17:33] Scott: you're like, what the hell's going on? Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. And that's, I, I wouldn't have used unity of command for that.

[00:17:38] Scott: Right? But that is, we're all on the same message, right? Mm-hmm. We're all marching towards that same objective right there, right? Mm-hmm. And, and everyone's saying that same thing, right? And that's why it's important to get the leadership together, right? So that we are saying the same thing. I, I do some work with our, our football team, with the Vanderbilt football team, right?

[00:17:53] Scott: Coach Lee. If I love everything he's doing with that program, I'm, I'm proud to be part of it and help in a little way. I will watch every team meeting that he has with the players every day. Right. I will watch that 30 to 45 minute meeting to make sure that I stay on message with him. Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:18:10] Scott: He is the commander of that organization. Yeah. It's my responsibility to make sure whatever I'm teaching, sharing with the players is directly in line with his message. Yeah. And his themes right now, whether I agree with it or not. I generally do right, but, but I have to make sure if I don't agree with it, I have the responsibility to go to him and say, Hey, coach.

[00:18:31] Scott: I'm not sure that's, I would couch it that way. We, maybe we wanna word it a little bit differently. Mm-hmm. Whatever it is. Right. And then he tells me, Hey Scott, that's great. I'm gonna make that change. Or, Nope, I am the head coach and that's what I wanna do. Yep. That's right. Okay, great. Now I'm in, I'm in step with him again.

[00:18:47] Scott: Yeah. Okay. But I have to make sure that I'm, my message is the same as his. Yeah. And that you, 

[00:18:51] Sean: right. I think that's, I think that's, that's so key to make sure everyone's on the same page. Very confusing if leadership's saying different things, and then to your point, Up and down that that everyone's efforts are, are heading toward that mission accomplishment.

[00:19:02] Sean: So yeah, those are two, you know, military concepts. That's something I probably need to do a better job of. I used to do like, Creating some content or thoughts around, like, takeaways from military concepts and that, but I mean, you could make a whole career, you know, multitude of books to think about how to translate that.

[00:19:16] Sean: Right. Hey, 

[00:19:16] Scott: I, I, I love, you know, the, the military staff, right? That we have, right. Just the, you know, the personnel, the intelligence, the operations, the logistics, the communicators, right? All the special staff that goes with that. And, and the fact that you have a chief of staff that, that oversees all of that, right.

[00:19:30] Scott: And ensures that they're all on that same page, right? Commander's issuing the guidance. The chief is, You know, implementing and executing that through the staff in the subordinate units, right? Mm-hmm. It's, it's all keeps everybody together, right? But there's gotta be a mechanism by which that message, that intent, the priorities are communicated, right?

[00:19:46] Scott: Yeah. And if it's, if it doesn't come with the importance of it, I think sometimes it can get lost, right? The message can go, you're gonna do the following things. If people don't understand the why, Sometimes it's hard to get behind it. Yeah. And I've seen that happen, right? Where in Iraq, where I commanded a task force that was spread across, you know, one third of the country.

[00:20:06] Scott: And I would only get to see some of the teams face to face two or three times over a seven month trip. And, and I would go and visit with them, right? We, we had messages go down saying, I need you to do the following. And I would see them face to face. And, and I knew they read it because I could see how unhappy they were about it.

[00:20:21] Scott: Right? Yeah. And then I would, I would tell 'em, I say, Hey, this is why, right? And I'm like, oh, okay. Right. Yeah. It was the explanation of the why that they didn't understand with the directive. Right. As soon as they understood the purpose and the intent and the why they were on board. Right. And moving again.

[00:20:37] Scott: And that gets back to the clarity of, of purpose. Right. Or the unity of purpose, unity of effort. 

[00:20:41] Sean: And so, so, great. Well man, this has been awesome and You know, on a, on a personal note, I like to ask this from people that I think are, you know, and are out driving the world forward and trying to do, you know, great things and people I wanna surround myself with.

[00:20:54] Sean: What excites you most about life? 

[00:20:59] Scott: It, it's, it's helping people kind of find their passion and their ability to grow. You know, I just I, I love being around the people that you and I had the pleasure of working with. I, I got to work with 'em a little bit longer. But those people right there, they.

[00:21:14] Scott: Have so much desire to impact others and make things better around them. When I can help unlock that or build that connection right, that allows that to happen. I, I take a tremendous amount of pride, reward, you know, just it's, it's not, it's not accomplishment of recognition. It's just the satisfaction of knowing that you've, you've made somebody else's life better, right?

[00:21:37] Scott: Yeah. And that's, that I think, is so key to leadership, right? It's not about you know, just, just driving towards just a little bit more profit, which I know, you know, right? In, in for profit business, that's what's supposed to happen. But when you're impacting the lives of the people inside the organization, I.

[00:21:53] Scott: Think, I think that unleashes the potential and really gets things going. So that's really what excites me is when I can, I can impact that, that person, that family. Right. That organization in that manner. Yeah. 

[00:22:04] Sean: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, sir. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. Great to speak with you as always, and we'll have to do it again soon.

[00:22:09] Scott: Look forward to it. Thanks, Sean. Thanks. Appreciate it. 

[00:22:12] Sean: Thank you for listening to the Leadership After Hours podcast. If you haven't already, join us in the Modern Leadership Revolution by hitting the subscribe button and giving us a review on whatever platform you listen to. Or watch the Leadership After Hours podcast for a better tomorrow.

[00:22:26] Sean: Create a new leader today.