56: We Learn to be Great Leaders Through Hardship and a Curiosity Mindset w/ Carrie Cahill

Carrie Cahill shares her background in HR and executive coaching, highlighting the importance of leadership development through hardship. She emphasizes the need for leaders to be able to operate effectively in adversity and to have a curiosity mindset. She also discusses the gap between being a great manager and a true strategist, and the importance of teaching people how to lead. Cahill suggests that leaders should have someone in their corner who can provide honest feedback and help them break the dialogue with their ego. She also emphasizes the need for organizations to focus on developing leaders and creating a culture that values leadership development. The conversation explores the dynamics between immediate supervisors and leaders two levels up in a hierarchical organization. They discuss the importance of having a supportive immediate supervisor who can be a mentor and friend, as well as the role of leaders two levels up in providing guidance and discipline. They also touch on the concept of the Peter Principle, where individuals are promoted to positions of incompetence, and the need for leaders to develop their people and evaluate them for roles before promoting them. The conversation emphasizes the importance of having hard conversations, establishing trust and respect, and focusing on confidence, competence, character, and commitment as key qualities of effective leaders.

Carrie's Website and best contact:
Compassnorthcoaching.com 

Follow the Podcast @nolimitsleadership

Leaders learn to be good leaders through hardship and operating in adversity.

Leaders need to have a curiosity mindset and be willing to learn and adapt.

There is a gap between being a great manager and a true strategist, and leaders need to learn how to lead and create strategy.

Having someone in your corner who can provide honest feedback is crucial for personal and professional growth.

Organizations need to focus on developing leaders and creating a culture that values leadership development. The immediate supervisor should be a supportive mentor and friend to their subordinates.

Leaders two levels up have the role of providing guidance and discipline.

Leaders should develop and evaluate their people for roles before promoting them.

Hard conversations are necessary for growth and improvement.

Trust and respect are more important than being liked as a leader.

Effective leaders exhibit confidence, competence, character, and commitment.

"We learned to be good leaders through hardship."

"Leaders need to have a curiosity mindset."

"There is a gap between being a great manager and a true strategist."

"Your immediate supervisor is like, that's the person you have free conversations with. Like that's the person that's your friend, that's your developer, that's your buddy, that's your mentor."

No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:23
Unknown
Hello my no limit leaders. I am here with Carrie Cahill and I am so excited. we connected over some speakers. Training had just happened to sit together at dinner. One, and A11 time in the middle of the of the training and I just turned into, like, two old friends in the next 90 minutes. So I'm excited you're here.

00:00:25:01 - 00:00:44:22
Unknown
I'm excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. And, you know, so you've been around this leadership space, working with leaders in human resources and now as an executive coach for decades for a long you've ton of valuable experience. But how did what was that early HR experience like like kind of give people your background of how we got to where you are now?

00:00:45:00 - 00:01:03:17
Unknown
Yeah. So it's like my road has been so crazy and in a really short I started out, I was 17 years old. My parents said, you have to go teach job skills to the criminally insane at the state hospital in our town. And I was, unhappy. You know, it was the 80s. I had a job at the mall.

00:01:03:17 - 00:01:19:07
Unknown
I was, you know, doing the cool thing. And my parents like, no, no, no, no, this is what you're going to do. And I, I remember so clearly, I attempted my very first tantrum. I literally threw myself on the floor. I had never had a tantrum in my whole life. My dad walks in and he says to me, get up.

00:01:19:08 - 00:01:46:19
Unknown
And I said, dad, I don't want to do this job. And he said, this is when you're going to learn that sometimes you do what you have to do, not what you want to do. So consequently, I did that job for four summers, every Christmas, every spring break, and I had a crew of, anywhere between 7 and 15 people that were in a locked down facility.

00:01:46:19 - 00:02:04:01
Unknown
They had to have job skills, but they couldn't go to prison because what they had done was so bad that they couldn't even go to prison. And I was I weighed about a buck 25, five, eight, you know, and it was the 80s. So I was in my red Reebok high tops and yellow parachute pants, and I was going to teach them job skills.

00:02:04:03 - 00:02:22:18
Unknown
It was amazing. a great experience. Probably set the tone for a lot of what I ended up doing. And do you relate to helped you relate to all those business leaders later? Right. I was like, oh, I see, I see you, I see your kid before you and Sammy Young up in this. Is it crazy? Where does your parents know someone?

00:02:22:18 - 00:02:41:01
Unknown
They're like, how? Where did how did they just. Or they pull out of the classifieds. Like, how did you end up with that? My next door neighbor, was the director of the whole facility. And they were good friends with my parents. They played bridge together and they're like, oh, no, we've got a job for Kerry. And they put me in there.

00:02:41:02 - 00:02:56:13
Unknown
And the guy that was going to be my boss walks in day one. He said, I've never had a woman working. I a girl working this job. I don't want you. So let's just be clear. You're only here because I can't say no to the person who asked me to put you in here. I don't want you here.

00:02:56:13 - 00:03:23:05
Unknown
I was like, oh, this is great. Solid. First day at 17. Yeah, right. And I was like, well, you know, and here's in the back of my head, which I had the good sense not to say I don't want to be here either. So. But you know, if you fast forward that a lot of years and a lot of different roles, what I did learn is that everything first of all, we learn to be good leaders through hardship.

00:03:23:07 - 00:03:43:08
Unknown
It was a really hard job. It it was an awful job. And it was the best job I ever had in in some senses, because I learned how to really operate in adversity, I one day I had to go out and open a warehouse that was in the backside of the lot, and I was by myself. And at this point I'd been at the job for a while.

00:03:43:08 - 00:04:04:19
Unknown
I thought I was all that, and I was walking out with keys. And so what they gave you was I give you a pack of cigarets and, matches and keys. Now, remember, this is the early 80s. So, and so I go out, open this warehouse, and one of my patients had had them was having an a breakdown and had grabbed me by the throat.

00:04:04:19 - 00:04:31:06
Unknown
My feet were off the ground and was slamming me back against the garage door again, 17 years old. and I was by myself, which was not great. But, and all the other patients are, you know, cheering and all this. And so anyway, I would love to say that it was a really fine point of negotiation that got her to drop me.

00:04:31:06 - 00:04:53:16
Unknown
But in reality, what sounded like a roar in my ears was a whisper in my throat. And I said, put me down or you'll never see your daughter again, I promise. And she dropped me like a rock. First thing I did was hand out cigarets to everybody that wasn't upset, and then called for backup. The point of that is, is that at 17, somehow I had figured out how to live through adversity, right?

00:04:53:16 - 00:05:21:04
Unknown
I had figured out how to lead people and and get control over an organization or a situation in a less than positive environment. and under extreme, extreme adversity and stress. Right. Like that's the stress of that to be able to that calm under pressure, that's that's like an amazing immediate skill set to have. Yeah. And so I think that there were a lot of things that came up through my career.

00:05:21:04 - 00:06:02:18
Unknown
Certainly not as dramatic as that. Right. But there's a lot of things that had come up through my career and that stressed other people out really, really bad, upset other people really bad. And I said, you know what? I've got this and that willingness to say, I've got this in an air environment, especially when, you don't know what any certain day is going to bring and the ability to flex and that ability to hang with a situation that's not great really set you up throughout your career to say, I can make something of this no matter what I'm handed, no matter where I show up, I can make something of this because I've, I've

00:06:02:18 - 00:06:24:18
Unknown
got, a lot of reference points of when I've done something that was, you know, impossible. So, you know, I want to I hit on this because in the, in the military. Right. Kind of like, obviously this is a principle that is time tested. And in my book I talk about time, stress inoculation. Right. And how we use that.

00:06:24:20 - 00:07:00:04
Unknown
and in the military. So you can use it in a pretty extreme example for, for, for a reason. Right. Like, and, and we kind of put voluntarily put ourselves through those situations. And then we stress that. I remember, you know, one of the, the biggest differences between, say leadership development training or not just the training in general, but as a leader or as an officer in the regular military versus when I went into, Special Forces as a Green Beret was they were really trying to beat out of you this right and wrong black or white mentality that the regular military has.

00:07:00:04 - 00:07:34:17
Unknown
Right, right. The military's, you know, dress, right dress. There's always the wrong thing. You know, you either do it right, you do it. You know, it's like you do it right or you're wrong and follow the process. And then in the special forces realm, it's like the world is gray. There's no right answer. And so our, because you're out there operating in the gray of insurgency, guerrilla warfare with a very small team and and so almost all of our training events have and, I mean, you're first getting to sort of force and officer wear these like, ethical high stress dilemmas where there is no right.

00:07:34:19 - 00:07:52:18
Unknown
There's, there's not they're not there's not a check that says they did this course of action there for the right. It's just like principles of decision making and dealing with that. It was more about putting you in these, you know, where you're not just like looking for the one open door that's the right door. But like there is no right door.

00:07:52:20 - 00:08:12:15
Unknown
What do you do now? And right. And that reminds me of of that. And I I'm so thankful and blessed that I went through that. But I guess my question for you is when you knowing that that's, you know, as you said, we become better leaders through hardship. Yeah. Like, what does that mean for those that are rising leaders inside companies right now?

00:08:12:15 - 00:08:35:15
Unknown
Like how do they how do they utilize that principle to become better themselves? So I think that there's a you know, I think about this a lot because a lot of the folks that I coach regularly, and especially as that population is getting younger and unfortunately, and parents of my generation and I'm one of them, has done a lot to kind of try to protect their kids right from hardship, from really tough stuff.

00:08:35:20 - 00:09:00:00
Unknown
And because I was a Gen Xer, right. So and I'm and I know I laugh about it, but it's true. I mean, we were out of the house and and we laugh about it, but it is true. I had probably built a fire and a lot and had s'mores with my friends, you know, like some vacant lot, I know for a fact I was breaking into abandoned buildings just to see what was in there.

00:09:00:00 - 00:09:17:09
Unknown
I wasn't a bad kid. I was raised on the right side of, you know, the the you know, my parents gave me a strong moral code and all of that. But at the same time, I was curious and I had a lot of time on my hands. And so here we gone, and we've protected our kids from a lot of that stuff that made us gritty.

00:09:17:12 - 00:09:38:14
Unknown
And when you think about what it's going to take for a new leader, there had, you know, leaders today, one of the things is that one, they're looking for really fast return on any investment. They want a very quick return on investment. So if I've invested my time, my energy, my money, I want to see that. And sometimes life isn't like that, right?

00:09:38:14 - 00:10:01:01
Unknown
Sometimes you have to grit it out, sometimes you're going to get thrown a lot of adversity and we don't get to to quit. And so one of the things that I'm really working with a lot of my, clients on is, okay, well, how do you see that differently? What better questions can you ask yourself that will lead you in a direction that's different than you're going today?

00:10:01:01 - 00:10:30:23
Unknown
Because, I mean, to your Green Beret training, the world is gray. It's incredibly gray. And frankly, it's getting, in my mind, more gray. You know, there there are so many options when you look at AI, every option possible out there. Right. So the world is, is really, really getting gray. And, we have to figure out what it is within our circle of control that we have that will allow us to operate more effectively, you know, in this space.

00:10:30:23 - 00:11:01:19
Unknown
So one definitely is good. I mean, you got to get us sometimes you got to tough it out and and you got to be willing to, work through adversity, not just complain about it or blame. You know, I see a lot of folks, a lot of leaders now that want to blame the economy or they want to blame, you know, the current government leadership or the structures or they want to blame, you know, financial regulation or they want to blame on my mom that's going to blame.

00:11:01:19 - 00:11:26:11
Unknown
Just leave you sitting exactly where you sat and now you're more uncomfortable or unhappy. But it's not moving forward. You have to say, well, yeah. And, you know, I think that all comes to me. That's all ego protection, right? that external locus of control, that victim mindset, like the world happens to me, I'm sure. And that's such a and it just the it just lowers our level of self accountability and our power.

00:11:26:11 - 00:11:44:06
Unknown
Right. We're giving. Yeah. Giving our power away. Right. When we. Yeah when we do that. You know, it's interesting I just, I just put together what we're both speakers and coaches, so, like, what do we love better than new contextual models, right. Like, you know, like, what's what? What's more fun? Yeah, the growth mindset matrix. Right.

00:11:44:06 - 00:12:03:15
Unknown
It's like it's funny you bring that up because it in that, you know, I talk about how, you know if you if you're looking for like, what is this course going to work is this, is this business going to work? Is this, is this coach going to work? Is this workout program going to work? If if just the way you're phrasing that, you're saying, is it going to work?

00:12:03:17 - 00:12:20:15
Unknown
The reality is it's not. It's it never works. You are going to make it work. Right. Like there's we and we see this time and time again. We see that when, you know, two people go in and they start the same, you know, workout and diet program by the coach and they'll get different results. But it's the same program.

00:12:20:17 - 00:12:35:19
Unknown
Yeah. So like, you know what what's going on or the you know two businesses right. There's there's businesses that, you know, I remember when I had my first business and it was failing. And one of the frustrating things was I was like, I see other people doing this and winning and I'm not. And like and so you could blame everything else.

00:12:35:19 - 00:12:56:02
Unknown
But the reality is that should be a check on ego of like, well, what what can I control and what is a form, you know, how could this be for me? You know, how could this experience and how can I take control of it? I guess when you work with leaders and you see that. Yeah. We don't want to wait till you know the prisoner's holding us against the against the metal wall, right.

00:12:56:02 - 00:13:20:09
Unknown
Threatening us to like, hey, do we have it yet? So you're right, I guess. I guess there's two questions here for you. One, as individual leaders, what is the onus on us? How do we address that to to sort of to build that grit and resilience. And then the second question would be what is our responsibility or role to develop that inside of organization.

00:13:20:11 - 00:13:37:21
Unknown
While there's so much that goes into that, I mean, I, I love it. You know, one thing that I think, leaders need to do is they need to have somebody I really believe that you have to have somebody in your corner, whether it's a mentor or a coach or somebody that's willing to give it to you straight, because you got to break that dialog with the ego, right?

00:13:37:21 - 00:14:05:23
Unknown
You got to you have to have somebody that's going to say the hard things. I was just on a coaching call this week and it's somebody that I've coached before I have great admiration for. But they were really stuck. And I, and so it is having someone that's willing to hold a mirror up to you and go, are you do you do you see that this is what you're, you know, representing or standing on or where you're stuck?

00:14:05:23 - 00:14:37:23
Unknown
You know, I think also. There's so much that goes into it. There's so many different components. But one of the things, too, is that we have to constantly have a curiosity mindset. You cannot believe that you know it all. And we get I remember a time in my life where I was like, oh, I got this, I got I, I got this, I've been doing this, you know, and and I didn't have it and I didn't understand the difference between being a great manager and a true strategist.

00:14:38:04 - 00:15:06:13
Unknown
And I was really stuck in what true strategy meant. And required of me, and the suspension of knowing in order to be really strategic and the ability to let go of execution in order to get to that creative leap. So many leaders today are there's a gap, right? Because they're great executed, but nobody's ever told them to suspend their belief system and move into strategy.

00:15:06:13 - 00:15:33:11
Unknown
They haven't told them how to to do that. And so you've got these great leaders, but they're not teaching people how to lead. They're just out there leading. And we got we have to spend a lot more energy and effort teaching people how to lead, teaching people how to suspend the gap between being a phenomenal manager and into really being a creative, you know, strategist.

00:15:33:13 - 00:16:06:04
Unknown
I think that leads into the second part with we have got to establish leaders, building leaders, in organizations because that gap is growing. And, you know, you look at all the new studies and reports out. And one of the biggest challenges to business today are that they don't have leaders. They have great managers. We've got lots of people that can task manage out there, but people who can actually lead and create strategy and create alignment around ideas, inspire people.

00:16:06:06 - 00:16:27:19
Unknown
I mean, you got to run into two. It's a huge gap. And, you know, it's a huge gap out right there. And we've got to get, a lot more focus on that if we're going to, get ahead. if we're going to get ahead of the new challenges that are being presented, it's going to require people to be really great leaders and not just really great at execution.

00:16:27:21 - 00:16:47:15
Unknown
And you're. Yeah, you're speaking my language. I mean, this is, you know, what I'm trying to do with this podcast I try to do with my clients and really, how do we make this shift from manager to leader? Yeah. What's the difference and how do we how are we make how do we become a I think of becoming aware of the difference is one of the first steps.

00:16:47:15 - 00:17:09:03
Unknown
So you know, I'm curious as someone who works with companies on this, you know. How how do you how would a company, if you have a leader who says, yes, I want to develop leaders inside my company. Right. I don't want to just I know that I want to add that component. Like how do you get buy in?

00:17:09:04 - 00:17:30:23
Unknown
How do you show, you know, ROI to the team to get them to buy in because it's easy on the manager side to say, hey, if we, you know, change this script, change this process, or, you know, 1% more efficient, here's ROI, ROI on that. But what's that conversation like as a leader to get, buy in from people inside your culture?

00:17:31:01 - 00:17:55:00
Unknown
Then, you know, as I say, I have these four leadership truths. And one of them, you know, is that developing leaders and developing people in our company is a core competency. So right next to making a widget, trying to service one of the reasons we exist as a company is to develop people inside of your team. Because if that's not a core competency, as soon as the the budget changes or whatever happens, that's going to be the first thing cut.

00:17:55:00 - 00:18:10:16
Unknown
And that's it's like cut yourself. So like that's that's a challenge I'm thinking through. And I and I think a lot of leaders are listening. You're like, you know, they're listening to this and they consider themselves a no limits leader. And they're trying to push their you know, we're kind of preaching the choir, but how do we give them the tools?

00:18:10:16 - 00:18:28:11
Unknown
How do they go into their organization and say, we need to shift culture? Part of the reason we exist is to develop leaders and people. How do they get how do they start to have that conversation? You think, you know, I love the fact that you brought up culture because and and I know that this is such an old saying culture eats strategy for lunch.

00:18:28:11 - 00:18:56:20
Unknown
But it does every single day. And I see it over and over again, I so I have two thoughts on that. One is the I remember I was working in home building and I always worked really late. I started early and I worked really late, and it was 6:00 and I was walking past my cfo's office and this was like at the time, it was probably a $1.3 billion company privately held, and I hear my name shouted out from the door.

00:18:57:01 - 00:19:19:17
Unknown
And, and at this time I was simply a recruiter for the company. I hadn't moved into an HR while I was a recruiter, and I hear Cahill and I was like, oh. And I look at my watch, it's like 630. I'm like, and you know, when the CFO is calling your name and you think that you're not visible in the organization, you're like, oh, no.

00:19:19:19 - 00:19:35:07
Unknown
Yeah, they're probably not. They're probably not excited to give me a new bonus. It's like it's probably something that was great. Let's find out about this conversation. So I go in and I'm like, okay sir. And there was like VP of finance was in there as VP of land was in there a bunch of folks. He's like, sit down, we're having a conversation.

00:19:35:07 - 00:19:57:17
Unknown
I think you'd learn from. Great. Okay. So I sit down and this so again, well, after business hours and everybody's just sitting around, there's probably four other people in there. I sit down and they're, they're tossing a baseball around and just having a conversation about what are the challenges in the business. This is a totally off, but this isn't a meeting.

00:19:57:17 - 00:20:19:18
Unknown
It's just a conversation about what are the challenges in the business. And one of them that they had been talking about apparently had been talent. Right. So talent is one of the greatest leverages that they felt like they were still struggling with brilliant conversation. There was two really brilliant things about that. One, I got to see how people were responding.

00:20:19:18 - 00:20:46:02
Unknown
I got to ask really? Great questions that weren't necessarily boardroom questions, right? They were like, how about this? How about that? So a couple things happened. One, I got a voice at an in an organization CFO, you know, a bunch of people that we're dealing with, a lot of the money in the organization. And then way, way down the recruiter and I actually had a voice.

00:20:46:02 - 00:21:02:02
Unknown
People were asking me questions, and I was giving them ideas. I'm like, that's great to think about. I hadn't thought about this. This is this. And I'm and the other thing. So that was great because I got a deeper level of insight. With that also came a much higher level of expectation, because now they were giving me a peek behind the curtain.

00:21:02:02 - 00:21:28:12
Unknown
Right. So culturally, they were going to expect me to live into that spot that they had invited me into. Ultimately, that I was invited regularly into those conversations and, majorly changed my career trajectory because it opened me up to what was possible. Right? I got to see a different level of the organization. I got to see what was possible.

00:21:28:12 - 00:21:58:11
Unknown
I got to see how I could impact and affect change and culturally. It was a huge stepping stone. I'd say all that to say this, I think a lot of people aren't comfortable in organizations having that level of conversation, that exploratory, vulnerable conversation. You know, here's what we're challenged by. What do you guys think? Right. That CFO he was brilliant at that.

00:21:58:13 - 00:22:16:11
Unknown
You know, he was really brilliant. Or just saying ultimately, hey, I'm going to make the decision. I'm also going to take the heat for whatever that decision is. But I want everybody to have a voice in this. I want everybody to be able to explore what what could work and what couldn't work. And it was a real so was a gloves off.

00:22:16:11 - 00:22:44:09
Unknown
I mean, somebody would tell you exactly what they thought of you, right? You know, in those chats, you know, like with no social structure around it, you know, but at the same time, it was also so incredibly vulnerable. It is incredibly validating, right. Because because you were able to impact change, you could see that the result of those conversations showing up in the decisions that the organization was making.

00:22:44:11 - 00:23:17:16
Unknown
I don't think a lot of people have that kind of freeing conversation up and down an organization. Unfortunately, I think a lot of leaders just hang out up here with these folks, and they're not gathering information or ideas from the folks that are implementing the folks that are seeing the stumbling blocks. I think that they miss an opportunity also to influence the folks that are are doing the execution.

00:23:17:18 - 00:23:44:05
Unknown
They really miss an opportunity to get a ground swell energy around an idea. It's a real, I think, a real mess, especially as organizations become, more and more distant and a little more fractured, you know, as more stuff is handled through email or, you know, a quick web chat or whatever or, or a very, you know, think about your customer service on web chat.

00:23:44:05 - 00:24:28:18
Unknown
Or if you think about how often zoom calls take the place of, you know, one on one face conversations, organizations are kind of missing that opportunity. Leaders are missing the opportunity to influence and train and teach and mentor and coach. And those things are used to exist a lot more. Just yeah, I totally I think, I would I see especially where as teams get more distributed, go remote like all of those things on the leadership space, I feel like that informal, you know, chats like you're talking about, like there's not the opportunity to have those.

00:24:28:20 - 00:24:49:06
Unknown
And I think the answer to that is we have to be more intentional. Like we have to be intentional to create this space because the watercooler chat or the oh, you know, we kind of vibe, let's have it. If that's not happening, we have to create the space. Is that you talked about to like, hey, the purpose of this is just, you know, we're just going to brainstorm ideas right now.

00:24:49:07 - 00:25:23:15
Unknown
No bad ideas, right? Like you have to formally do that. And I feel like that's the same with, you know, development because that development opportunity, like you're speaking about, you know, is going to require someone maybe to put a meeting on your calendar to invite you into the space to have that, to be intentional with the development, like if you're if we're going to say it's our one of our primary roles and there's companies to develop, our people, but then there's never time on their calendar to develop people right with intention or to have those conversations.

00:25:23:17 - 00:25:45:04
Unknown
Then you know, your actions and, don't align with what you're saying. Your values are, and the and I see, you know, again, another contextual model I have, I barely rule out, but I, I was trying to as I was putting together this leadership development program software. Right. Yeah. And and so it's like, well, how do we even start to structure that?

00:25:45:04 - 00:26:11:05
Unknown
So I said there's five levels of leaders. And then I came up with this, this whole, infographic contextual model on optimal organizational function. And there's levels from top to bottom. But what these were like gears on each side of it with communication going down and feedback going up. And it's a cycle. And so that, you know, you mentioned getting buy in from the lower levels from people or the executer level when I call like a tactical level speaking.

00:26:11:05 - 00:26:33:22
Unknown
Yeah, operational and strategic and strategic folks. But what's the mechanism for that feedback to happen? and I see I agree with you that a lot of organizations don't have that. And I think a lot of me that the senior leaders grew up in a time where they didn't have to be intentional with creating feedback mechanism because they just happened because you're in close proximity.

00:26:34:00 - 00:26:57:02
Unknown
Yep. But now we're not. and so if that's not going to happen now, we have to replace that with some intentionality. And and so yeah, I think that I think you're spot on on like, you know, if I looked at an organization, I would just say, yeah, I actually got this question after a keynote I recently had was like, if you go to a company like, what's the one thing, what's the biggest thing that we can do?

00:26:57:04 - 00:27:20:10
Unknown
And what I told them was monthly coaching, like structured coaching sessions because it covers it moment, but also because that creates that's a natural flow to have communication go down, feedback go up, then report on that, like that, that mechanism, it's not about necessarily just the coaching session. It's about the it's a mechanism for information transfer from these different levels.

00:27:20:11 - 00:27:40:14
Unknown
Yeah. And and I think you're so right on that you know. So what do you think. It's really just to that point. What do you think about a step level coaching. Like you miss this step like so if it's this person they need to go the step up for the coaching. Because I find a lot of dilution in the messaging with the next level.

00:27:40:15 - 00:28:01:14
Unknown
Right. So if I'm a or if I'm a manager and I'm going or if I'm a supervisor and I'm going to my manager to have a conversation that my conversation at coaching conversation gets diluted by the time it gets to the director. Right. Because the soup, the manager is reframing that so that they either look good or protected or whatever by the time it gets to the person.

00:28:01:16 - 00:28:36:00
Unknown
And so what I find is that these and I'm hoping I'm finding something that is inconsistent, but the dilution by the time it gets to the top is so watered down that it's that it's losing value. Right. So I wonder about is there benefit if there was a step level jump in that coaching because question. Yeah, I think it may depend on I think there's definitely value in skip levels in going up to, to have conversations.

00:28:36:02 - 00:29:04:01
Unknown
I'm not sure, you know, structurally if I like the idea of that being the regular occurrence, because then you're really cutting out the conversation of that middle manager. I think there's I think there's room for, you know, group group sessions, to have that type of feedback. Yeah. you know, it's interesting I brought this up. I'm interested to hear your take because in, in, in the military and, you know, I've never worked in a big organization, so I, you know, in, in the civilian side, I've worked with plenty of clients.

00:29:04:01 - 00:29:24:06
Unknown
But one concept, we have here is that, like, your immediate supervisor is like, that's the person you have free conversations, like, that's the person. That's your friend, that's your developer, that's your buddy, that's your mentor. You know, I'm on your side, Jerry. Like I'm. I got your back always, you know, and you do it right. You take care of your people.

00:29:24:06 - 00:29:51:22
Unknown
And that's right. And then, you know, level two levels up to that person's boss. That's the hammer. Like, so if you're if you're the manager or your senior manager is, you know, that's your buddy, your mentor, what what happens is you create enough space so that if someone is bringing the hammer down, the director can bring the hammer down on you as a disciplinarian and then kind of let you know, you know, give you that, you know.

00:29:52:04 - 00:30:08:03
Unknown
Yeah. When you actually do this, we call it. Well, you'd actually get it sometimes called wall to wall counseling. yeah. Not very, but you know, you get that. But then they could leave and you'd be and then your, your immediate supervisor come in and help you lick the wounds and get yourself together and be your buddy again.

00:30:08:03 - 00:30:27:17
Unknown
Right. Because you have to work together. but so I think there's roles in that. And then if you go up, you know, 3 or 4 levels, then you're just like, you're the grandfather, omnipotent. Like, you guys can tell me anything. It doesn't affect you type of thing. Right? Like it's interesting the way that works. Yeah. So like, yeah, they can be that big.

00:30:27:17 - 00:30:51:11
Unknown
Like, yeah. You guys tell me what you think. I just want to get a feel for what's happening on the ground, which I think is important too. but I don't know what. How do you see that that concept and that relationship of immediate supervisor versus to up and and how and maybe the maybe the overall question is is like what's what should be the best relationship of immediate supervisor versus two levels up?

00:30:51:11 - 00:31:13:10
Unknown
Like what's the difference in how they should they should interact with that person. Do you think see, that's the irony of it is because it all depends on that person's capabilities. And some people are I mean, a lot of times by the time an executive coach gets brought in and you I know you know this, we've got somebody that's very close to Peter, principled out of their job.

00:31:13:12 - 00:31:37:14
Unknown
Right. They've been promoted, promoted, promoted because they're excellent execution people, excellent tactical boots on the ground, get everything done. But all of a sudden they're in a role where whatever was asked to them that made them brilliant, doesn't matter anymore, right? It doesn't matter. And now they're supposed to be like that grandfather. Like that person. Tell me I can help you.

00:31:37:14 - 00:32:01:09
Unknown
I can fix this. I want to hear, But but they have no clue how to find their way. They're like. They're they're there, but they don't know how to leverage it. They don't know how to inspire action from the people that are reporting up through the chain. They don't know how to create energy. They don't know how to create, drive, enthusiasm.

00:32:01:11 - 00:32:35:00
Unknown
They they just know how to do it, you know? So they've been doing doing, doing. But but what happens is that. The the leadership has got to be spending more time as that coach as that. You know, that person that really helps them understand here's what really matters. Connecting their day to day job with what really matters.

00:32:35:02 - 00:32:59:15
Unknown
And so what happens is you've got these manager level people that are super tactical, and all they want is the person below them to put out, put out 50 more perfect widgets, you know, and but the the president of the company doesn't care about 50 more perfect widgets. The president of the company cares about profitability, sustainability, you know, the environmental demands of the stockholders is really what they care about if they're public.

00:32:59:17 - 00:33:23:08
Unknown
And so this person who's creating 50 more perfect widgets has no understanding of how that matters in the grand scheme of things. And the person above them has no ability to communicate anything to them. That would be more inspiring, inspiring. You know, they're like, let's have a pizza party. Stop with the pizza parties. This it's just I walk into organizations all the time.

00:33:23:08 - 00:33:43:01
Unknown
Like, do you think we should have a pizza party? Will that help our culture? I'm like, no bonus. No. Does your people understand how they impact their bonus? Well, no. I mean, it's a complicated algorithm that's attached to this or that. I'm like, then no. And they're like, what are you saying? I'm saying take time out of your day, walk the floor, talk to people.

00:33:43:03 - 00:34:04:17
Unknown
Also tell people to stop saying things like, hey guys, great job today. I said, if you're shouting to a floor full of people that they did a good job, you're wasting your breath. And they said, I, oh, I'm being encouraging. And I'm like, to who exactly? And they're like, what? I mean to everybody on that forum. Like really, really.

00:34:04:17 - 00:34:30:00
Unknown
Because they felt that that was intentionally to them they're like, that's a but when was the last time you stopped by their workstation and had a conversation about a skill or a talent that they have that they feel is untapped but valuable here? When was the last time you stopped by their workstation and said, is there anybody on this team that you think you could partner with to accelerate your growth?

00:34:30:01 - 00:34:56:06
Unknown
And those are the questions that those manager level need to be having to gain an insight that's actually going to move the needle. And then they, you know, need to be having that with their next their step level up saying here's an opportunity that we're missing. You know here's something that I see. And and by the way this process is broken.

00:34:56:07 - 00:35:18:22
Unknown
And and I and I want control over the solution and the fix. And I want a budget and I want this and that. And they're like, Carrie, we can't have those conversations. Well, that's where that organization is broke down then, because they want you to fix it, but you're not safe enough to have a conversation that they that you are capable of fixing it.

00:35:19:00 - 00:35:42:13
Unknown
Okay. So sure. And, you know, I see I see that with, you know, multiple companies where you have that Peter principle take over and, you know, to me, again, it's funny to come back to two things. One, those leadership truce I was telling you about. another one is that, people should be developed and evaluated for a role before they're put into it.

00:35:42:15 - 00:35:59:10
Unknown
Go on after. Right. And let's. And here's another one. Let's have real clarity as to what that role is going to be like. They're like, yeah, yeah, let's give them something bigger. But we don't really know what that's going to look like. They'll figure it out on the next well and also like what. So what's the difference between, you know, the senior managers role in the director's role.

00:35:59:12 - 00:36:19:06
Unknown
Like what role do they, you know, let's have like I don't think they could accurately describe like what is the impact? Okay. You're a senior manager right now. So you're you've got, you know, or you're a director. You've got managers underneath you. Okay. What's your role in the organization like how do you move the needle. You know, because a lot of times you're just like passing.

00:36:19:06 - 00:36:44:16
Unknown
They're a pass through information right there. Like the like in like middle management is like that. that's like the LLC of the business, right? That's the pass through. It's a pass through function. Right. Like it's not it's not you know, you can't hold anything that that level just goes up and down, right. but like and then okay, so your job is to, you know, because what I see is I see, someone who they become a decent manager, right?

00:36:44:18 - 00:37:02:23
Unknown
They, they learn how to manage and get and get a result out of their individual contributors. but the development stops there, and then they go. Now they're a leader of leaders. Now they're director with managers, and they're still trying to do the same function. And they and but they're still there. They're long enough. Then they get promoted to VP.

00:37:03:02 - 00:37:34:16
Unknown
And now they're still trying to do this. Now they're still like reaching down and checking individual calls and like, why is this person making these dials? And they're doing first line supervisor stuff. It's like, dude, you're the VP. Like, you know, it's funny, my, my my wife, my wife's company. Yeah. her, her director. So having, like, conversations about, coaching sessions, like, we just talking about and having and, developmental coaching sessions and, I think it was and also like, you know, positive reinforcement.

00:37:34:16 - 00:37:49:09
Unknown
Right? Like positive reinforcement of action. And it's like, well, how many of you had just like, well, you know, I've had a I'm not doing it the way you want me. I'm not posting on the board. But I'm like having these conversations. I do this here ideas here does you know where. And then the reality is she's like, how many of those have you had with me?

00:37:49:11 - 00:38:03:17
Unknown
One like one one time. And it's like, yeah. So it's just, it's a matter of like, how do we develop? And I think it's still goes. So it goes back to the one, the leadership truth like we have need evaluate and train people on the role before we put them in. To your point, that role has to be defined.

00:38:03:19 - 00:38:29:03
Unknown
Yeah. and to me, the answer right of creation. Right. The, the mechanism of influence is still those regular coaching sessions, because that's where you have it's where you do those things, and have those conversations develop someone, have them understand what role they play in the organization because they don't like, we wouldn't even know, right. Like I'm gonna get promoted.

00:38:29:03 - 00:38:51:18
Unknown
But how, why? And ultimately what they want a lot of times is they want and this is going to sound hard. But a lot of times why people want promotion is they want more money. It's really not that they want all that extra responsibility. It's not that they want a greater sphere of influence. It's not that they want to have to get more continuing education in order to be successful.

00:38:51:18 - 00:39:13:04
Unknown
They don't want all that. They just want more money. And nobody's having a conversation with them saying, why do you want more money? Why do you want more money? Well, I feel like I'm doing twice the work that other folks in my organization are doing, and I deserve more money. Okay, that's a totally different conversation. Or, well, I think I deserve more because I came up with four really great ideas.

00:39:13:06 - 00:39:31:12
Unknown
Well, that doesn't necessarily mean you want to be a manager. Maybe we need to have you know, you're right. You did come up with four really great, you know, profitable ideas. We need to rethink your role. There's a lot of different things that come into it. Instead of, you know, promoting somebody in a manner that isn't going to serve.

00:39:31:12 - 00:39:52:21
Unknown
And what happens is people have really hard time having financial conversations with folks. People have a really hard time having hard conversations like, yeah, I see what you did. Those are four great ideas, but you realize that you have been present in our office only 30% of the time. Like, you show up for work, you know, you almost never show up for work or whatever.

00:39:52:21 - 00:40:13:06
Unknown
And they're like, well, I didn't know that was a problem. I mean, I still did this well, so one of the things I think has to happen is that people need to start learning how to have hard conversations. And I get it. It's hard in business right now if you don't have your H.R. Department raining down on you, about one thing, you got legal or risk management or somebody, everybody's telling you how to do this.

00:40:13:08 - 00:40:38:05
Unknown
And so what's happened is that in a lot of organizations, because of the oversight of H.R. and legal and risk and all these folks, we've made it so hard for people to have a hard conversation that they don't. They literally don't. And so you got a lot of folks running around not knowing what good looks like, and really not having a clear understanding of what bad looks like, like what is, what is bad, what is unhelpful.

00:40:38:10 - 00:41:03:13
Unknown
And then you have organizations taking a weak way out and saying, well, we'll just do a layoff and we'll get rid of our bottom 10%, even though we're told, you know, everybody that we didn't we we it was random. And this and that not got rid of your lowest 10%. And all of that could be served better by supporting managers, helping them learn.

00:41:03:15 - 00:41:30:19
Unknown
What does it look like to have a hard conversation? How do we have a hard conversation? How often do we have a hard conversation? And how well do we know our people so that that's not that hard of a conversation? Because it's much harder when we don't know our people. And then, by the way, all those folks that are supposed to be brilliant leaders up at the top, how often are they having truly developmental coaching level conversations with their people?

00:41:30:21 - 00:42:04:13
Unknown
How often are they truly having strategic conversations, innovative conversations, mind mapping conversations, brainstorming conversations? You know, how often is all of that occurring? They're. Yeah. You know, and yes, to everything you just said. The other the other thing is the, you know, you talk about leaders, I this is a kind of phrase that I was I mean, if I'm not the first one to say this, obviously, you know, you you, you know, lead the person instead of just manage the position.

00:42:04:15 - 00:42:20:02
Unknown
Yes. yeah. And we talk about in order to inspire and influence others and, and be a true leader, you have to lead and inspire that person to be. I at least I say like to be a better human being in general. Like to be better, be better, communicate better in the relationship. To be better, you have to have.

00:42:20:02 - 00:42:47:16
Unknown
And I know you talk about, you know, how do people establish their their calling and their conduct and all that. So like, I guess my role is what role or expectation should be there of like a modern business leader to have these conversations about life calling and purpose fulfillment outside of just professional career progression. Like should there be an expectation of that or not?

00:42:47:18 - 00:43:12:04
Unknown
You know, I think that the way the world is going, I mean, this isn't this isn't the 40s and 50s when people punched a clock and created a watch and went home at the end of the day, right? I mean, this is not this is a very different mindset. And I think we have to I think it has to be a part of it, because that's what really good employees, people that want to stay, people that want to contribute, that's their expectation.

00:43:12:04 - 00:43:45:00
Unknown
And we kind of have to meet them where they are. I think at the same time, people have to understand that. not everybody's going to like you. You're not always going to get an award. Not everybody's going to like you. But that doesn't mean that they won't. Someday. And it also doesn't mean that they don't still have the capacity to recognize what you bring to an organization.

00:43:45:01 - 00:44:09:23
Unknown
So like one of the I remember I used this at that homebuilding company back in the day, and this happened to me again. I supported corporate and so corporate. I got to a point and they said, you know, you need to go support this president in Chicago. He needs you. You need him. And so the first day it was announced that I was going to be his age, our business partner, he sat down in my office and he said, I hate you.

00:44:10:01 - 00:44:32:16
Unknown
I don't like you. I don't like the way you communicate. And I think you're a spy from corporate. I don't want you in my organization. And I said, there I was young at the time, and I was like, well, that's unfortunate, because the core fundamental part of my job is communication. And I have been assigned to you, and we are stuck together for a minimum of 12 months.

00:44:32:18 - 00:45:02:00
Unknown
Roll forward. He became one of the most inspiring leaders that I ever worked for. He became, we became actually good friends and I did the things that he found absolutely impossible to do. And in exchange, I got massive training on, you know, like budgetary planning and big scale ramp up of organization and strategy and a lot of that stuff.

00:45:02:02 - 00:45:22:11
Unknown
I think what's happening in a lot of organizations right now is that people lose sight of the fact that you can work for somebody who doesn't like you, but they can still respect you, and you can still learn a lot, and you have to set up an objective for yourself that says, I'm going to do this for this amount of time, and here's going to be my takeaway here is going to be what I'm going to walk away from.

00:45:22:13 - 00:45:40:05
Unknown
And here's what I how I hope to grow and what I hope to show and all that. And that can change that relationship. But I think that we have to go into those organizations going, it's okay if not everybody loves me. Am I still able to show up? Am I still able to deliver? And is that still recognized?

00:45:40:05 - 00:46:04:19
Unknown
And I still, am I still able to become a fuller, you know, a better example of myself? I mean, and that might be a stretch, but I have to believe that in the military, not everybody loved you like, as you were going up through the ranks. And, I mean, I have to believe that it's not just me or a few people that I've seen that have similar situation that moved into leadership roles.

00:46:04:19 - 00:46:26:13
Unknown
Sometimes it's working for people that don't, what are your thoughts? Yeah. No, absolutely. And I don't think that, I mean, I also have people that I respect and I love maybe to work with that I don't that I don't necessarily want to, like, hang out and have a beer with a beer with, you know. Yeah. Like that's, you know, there's those could be different to me.

00:46:26:13 - 00:46:51:06
Unknown
Those are like different. That's there are different things. And I do feel like especially maybe it's funny, we keep saying a younger generation, I feel like it's just like a scapegoat thing. But like part of it is it is. The younger generation does struggle, especially with in-person communication and hard conversations, because they're so used to communicating through a screen or through text or something like that, where it's, you know, you can really curate your response versus having to read and respond nonverbal cues.

00:46:51:08 - 00:47:27:06
Unknown
so I think there's some struggle in communicating that there. But the, the role you mentioned of who do I need to like? I was just thought of, you know, who is the leader that I would want in in charge me. Right now. And that isn't necessarily my best friend. A lot of times it's not. And, you know, I think that that that, you know, superior subordinate relationship, although, you know, it's funny because all these terms that are like, so technical, a lot of times a business is like, you can't even you can't even say that, like, yeah, who's you use your subordinates like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wow, wow.

00:47:27:08 - 00:47:50:07
Unknown
Well hold on. Like, listen, you can fire somebody here, right? Like, who is that person there to support you. But anyway. But I think just like to your point, let's just cut through the B.S., right? Like. Yeah. Because we can't be so touchy if we're too touchy to even admit where we're at in an organization. How are we going to have a tough conversation about life or, you know, the future or, or the business, like, you know.

00:47:50:07 - 00:48:21:04
Unknown
So anyway, I think that having to find a balance and I think I've, I've worked through the years and I'm, I'm blessed and the amount of reps I got in the military of establishing relationships, moving on to the next role because moving on to another role every other few years. And so it's like, how quickly can you establish that trust and relationship and bond and so I think that to for for people to trust and respect you, which I think that is way more and again than liking you.

00:48:21:05 - 00:48:54:04
Unknown
Yes. so much. But trust and respect and you know, it's actually I'm actually working on again, a new, a bit of a new concept on when it comes to marriage. Obviously, the thing that applies here, and yeah, what I did recently was I went, I went back and I had this in years. I went back and pulled from my library like my military leadership stuff like military leadership doctrine on on that and and books as a I've been out in the conscious leadership, you know, space and trying to learn all these other things.

00:48:54:04 - 00:49:22:04
Unknown
But I went back there and there was, actually a report and doctrine on Mission command on how to actually like, establish a we call esprit de corps, like, yeah, right. Pride in the unit. Right? Yeah. And they did a study and they basically said, well, soldiers that are in units that have high speed Air corps, high morale, which lead to high outcomes, high, you know, to in the business world it's high engagement, right.

00:49:22:06 - 00:49:47:06
Unknown
Low churn all those things. and said they would describe their leaders as having three things and it was confidence, competence and character. Yes, I and I actually read that somewhere too, and I did. Yeah. Yeah. And actually it was like integrity or something. But I'm just going to rephrase this in character. So confidence competence and character. And I thought adding a fourth other thing I saw in place was commitment.

00:49:47:12 - 00:50:07:00
Unknown
So as long way to go around it. But like yeah you in terms of as a leader, instead of worrying about does this person like me like it's almost it's the wrong question. It's who do I need to be for this person to want to follow me? And I think it comes down to confidence, competence, character and commitment.

00:50:07:00 - 00:50:43:11
Unknown
If you show those things, that person will follow you, and if you don't, it doesn't matter how much they like you. That's true. And that's why, you know, it's really funny. I one of the things I said recently when I walked into a room, I said, look around, who is everybody taking notes on? So when they're speaking, I said, it is not the person that is designated as leader in this room and there and it was a real, you know, wake up because you have people that are defined or termed or designated as a leader.

00:50:43:13 - 00:51:03:00
Unknown
But if you're not watching the organization as a who is the organization paying attention? You, that's your leader. And very often it is because, yeah, maybe it's because they're competent, but there's a lot of people that get ignored because they have a high degree of competency and they're just irritating, or there are no at all or whatever. But those other components, you know, are they committed?

00:51:03:02 - 00:51:30:06
Unknown
Tons of people in organizations have a very low commitment. Everybody's like, yeah, they're a flash in the pan. You know, they only stay a year and a half. I don't have to stay with them. You know, they'll be moving on soon. People. Character goes a very long way. And and having people understand your character and understand your compass and understand your why really, really vital for leadership.

00:51:30:06 - 00:51:38:02
Unknown
I think, you know, when you think about all four of those, they really do need to all be tied together.

00:51:38:02 - 00:51:52:05
Unknown
that last part is that really it's all four of those that we need to be coaching everyone to write all four of those. If we want somebody to make that jump from manager to leader, we need to be willing to coach them to all of those.

00:51:52:05 - 00:52:14:15
Unknown
We need to be willing to coach them, to a competency. Probably got them there. But what is their character? How are they sharing that? Right. All of the other components, how committed are they and what is their language around commitment and what do they what are they demonstrating behaviorally that tells people they don't have to wait out till the next guy gets dropped in?

00:52:14:17 - 00:52:38:04
Unknown
You know, what is our organizational commitment to that? Like organizationally, are we somebody that churns through people or are we somebody that's seen as building people? How are we seen organization really. And yeah, totally. Yeah. No. Well, you know, it's it'll be I'm glad that you know, we seem we're seeing the same things. It seems like we're seeing the same thing.

00:52:38:10 - 00:52:59:15
Unknown
Thank you. So I'm glad we're we're two warriors out there trying to, you know, bring the gospel, of good quality leadership out and trying to solve this and help people because I yeah, I just, you know, we spend way too much of our time in our careers at work, working, interacting with people for that to be a horrible experience, like you said, just punching in the clock, just to put up with it to get home.

00:52:59:17 - 00:53:26:17
Unknown
And, and I believe that, you know, unlocking a, an organization's true potential comes from, both from maximizing both team fulfillment and to company profitability. And those two things are actually linked together when we see our best results. 100%. well, Carrie, this has been awesome. We've been just going and going and going. and I had I had a whole list of things and we got to like two of my six questions, so I'll do it again.

00:53:26:19 - 00:53:42:04
Unknown
as always, like I said, we could. Yeah. You and I could sit here and have a conversation all day. If someone's trying to get a hold of you, they love what they hear. and they will learn more. Where do they? Where do they find you? You know, the best way to find me is at Compass North coaching.com, and that's probably the easiest way to connect with me.

00:53:42:06 - 00:53:57:11
Unknown
Also, make sure you go look for, Carrie on a stage near you, keynote thing or, coaching or any of that thing. So look her up. She's one of my fave. So curious. Awesome. I look forward to our next chat I love it! Thank you so much for having me today. Appreciate it. You have a great day.