Noble Conversations
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Noble Conversations
The Heart of a Nation Builder | A Noble Conversation with Daniel Otabor
In this episode, we sat down with Daniel Otabor, Founder of Run for Nigeria and author of Dear Leader, to discuss leadership, nation-building, and the future of Nigeria.
We cover:
1. Where Daniel's passion for nation building began
2. What Nigeria looked like about 10 years ago, what it looks like today, and what it could look like 10 years from now
3. How collaboration can enable a stronger Africa
4. How Daniel is executing on his vision for a stronger Nigeria through his program Run for Nigeria and his book, Dear Leader.
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ABOUT NOBLE CONVERSATIONS:
Noble Conversations is a platform that aims to build the society of our dreams by engaging in noble conversations with those who are making community and global impact specifically in Advocacy, Creativity, and Entrepreneurship (ACE). Join us as we engage in noble conversations.
Contact us:
Email - contact@nobleconversations.com
Follow us on Social Media:
Instagram - @thenobleconversations
Welcome to another episode of Noble Conversations, where we build the society of our dreams by engaging in noble conversations with those who are making community and global impact, and Daniel Otabo, our guest today, is definitely one of those individuals, and so he is the founder of Run for Nigeria as well as author of the book Dear Leader, and today we'll be talking about building the Nigeria of tomorrow. So we'll talk about everything from what Nigeria of yesterday looked like, what Nigeria looks like today and what it takes to build the Nigeria of tomorrow. So, head over, join, join us, let's go. So obviously, you know, I reached out and I saw the work you're doing with run for Nigeria and also your book, dear leader. Yes, so yes, it sounds like you are very big on community and change and also expressing your ideas. You know, with people to see how we could at least build Nigeria together.
Speaker 1:So, from your perspective because I like to ask people this, because I have, based on your social media and what you're putting out I have a perception of what you're doing, but how do you view yourself in the work that you do and outside of the work that you do?
Speaker 2:How do I view myself in my work and how do I view myself outside of my work? That's an interesting question. So I view myself in my work as a catalyst, and what I mean by that is I am helping people realize who they are. I'm helping people understand that they have a part to play. I am reawakening in people's hearts their love for country and their love for making the country work. So I view myself in my work as a catalyst.
Speaker 2:Outside of my work, I think I'm a very chilled person. People think I'm a snob, right, because I always put up a very hard look. Even. It's recently that I started to ease, make my social media presence have some little play excitement. Before now it was Nigeria leadership, my book, nothing that would suggest that I have a life outside of nation building. But that's because I sleep, wake, eat, breathe Nigerian. So everything that I do revolves around nation building and Nigeria. So it's hard for people to see me outside of that. Except you are my close circle, you almost would not know that I have a life. I actually have an amazing life outside of uh, outside of my my work in nation building. Nation is also amazing, but I'm just saying that. You know I have an exciting life outside of nation. Beauty, yeah, so what what's described?
Speaker 2:describe that like so I, I have, I have a. I have a very small circle. This is not you know. People will say I have a small circle and it's not what it is. Actually, I have a very, very small circle.
Speaker 2:I can count my friends in one hand, my close friends, but interestingly, I know a lot of people. I know a lot of people in different communities. So if I go to any social gathering, for example, that doesn't look like a nation-building gathering. I know people there and that's because of how much I am open to meeting people. I see human beings as nations and as a nation-builder, human beings being nations means that I have to be interested in human beings as nations and as a nation builder, human beings being nations means that I have to be interested in human beings, right, and so I know a lot of people. But I have, like I said, I have a very small circle of friends. So my life, when I say my life is exciting, it's going out with friends. It's, you know, maybe watching a movie, which I just started doing recently. I struggle to finish a movie.
Speaker 1:Which one are you watching now?
Speaker 2:Currently watching Blacklist Blacklist okay. Blacklist is so good, so good, it's a series. I'm currently watching Blacklist. It's so so good, have you said it. You should try and say it if you haven't said it. I haven't watching Blacklist. It's so so good, have you said it. You should try and say it if you haven't said it, let me add it.
Speaker 1:I haven't heard of it, let me add it.
Speaker 2:It's so good, let me add.
Speaker 1:Blacklist to my list.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nice one. Let me add Blacklist to my list. Nice, nice it's a good movie.
Speaker 2:It's a good movie. My kind of movies are always brain. Uh, they, they would always make you think. They'll help you think. Um, yeah, I recently started watching animations. Uh, that's this, to take my mind off the serious movies that I watch, it's just watch animations. It's, it's, it's, it's, no, it's. It helps again with my creativity, because I I love creative, I love things that are creative, I love things that are that I'm like how do you think about that? So animations helped me appreciate people's creativity.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, okay. So it sounds like your life outside of the work you do is well. You have a small circle, yes, but then you also interact with a lot of people because you want to learn as much as you can from them absolutely yes, so nation building, you know you talked about eating, sleeping, breathing, nation building and nigeria, yes, uh, yes, and also described yourself as a catalyst.
Speaker 1:So like obviously chemistry catalyst speeds up the reaction, other stuff. But like where did your passion for nation building come about? And, uh, like how how did it come?
Speaker 2:that's it. That's a another good question. How did my passion for nation building? How did they start? Where did they come from? So, um, I think for me, nation, beauty, is a calling. It's not an ambition, it's not a career, it's a calling.
Speaker 2:I, in my journey to discovering my purpose, I I realized that that was my purpose and, interestingly, when I was in school, I was this guy who was a people's person. I was the faculty president, the, the vice chancellor knew me, deans knew me, everyone knew him in school. Right, and well before that time, I was just happy, happy, go lucky guy. And one day my sister called me and said hey, bro, how you doing? How's school? I'm like school is good. And she said I can't wait for you to be done with school so that I can come and live with you in lagos interestingly, she lives with me right now, yeah, but this was like years ago and it dawned on me that there were people in the house waiting for me to be done with school, to have a life, a meaningful life, so that they can rely and lean on me. Okay, prior to that time, I had the. I had an understanding. I'm the first child, so I knew that I had a responsibility, but it wasn't just so clear to me that they were already planning for me in that sense. So when that call ended, I said to myself what am I doing right now, actively, that will ensure that I'm on the path that can help me have a life that my sisters, my brother, can lean on?
Speaker 2:So I started to listen to, uh, you know, people like john maxwell, um robin shaman, um robin shaman, jim ron, jim ron and a couple of others, but they were all Westerners, they were all white men, they were all outside of Nigeria and I'm like, son, are people not doing these sort of things in Nigeria? I asked myself that question again and I went to the internet and I do like it, I do like a google search to say top, top five, top ten, um leadership experts, uh, purpose-driven people in Nigeria, and all that stuff. And a couple of people came outside and there was a particular man's name. That's that stood out for me because of the bio of that particular man and his name is Fela Durotoli. Ah, yes, okay, okay, wait, I have to stop you there because I know, I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 1:So I read I read one of his books. This was when I was in primary school. Actually I was what? Maybe 10. Actually I was like 9 and I my one of my teachers because I wasn't. I was one of those students that if I put my mind to it, I would do it.
Speaker 1:Yes but I generally I generally was just like, I don't want to stress myself. So I think I was nine and primary five or so, and my teacher was like okay, if you confess three in class, I'll give you. Yes, you know, if you you're first, I'll give you this book. If you're second, I'll give you this. If you're third, I'll give you this. And so me I was not even in top three, but then I was like you know what.
Speaker 1:That book. I want that book and the book was 17 Secrets of High Flying Students High Flying Students.
Speaker 2:Absolutely by F and obviously I.
Speaker 1:You know, I walked my way and got the book, and so that's that's somebody that I look up to.
Speaker 2:So that's why, when you said I was like yes, yes, I know, I know he's done amazing things for Nigeria and for the world. Now look at the story. Just, you see, when I met Fela Durotoyi after the search, right, um, and I said, okay, this man looks like someone I would love to be close to Now. I schooled in Benin Republic, by the way, and I was in school, like I said, when I, when I did this search Unlike you, when I put my mind to something, I do it I said to myself I am going to meet this man. I've seen it videos on YouTube. People seem to be happy when they hear him speak. People seem to come alive when they hear him speak. And I said I'm going to meet this man. But what am I going to do to meet this man? I have to be someone of value to attract someone of value. That's the way it works. That's the way it works. And I said, okay, what does this man do that I can contribute to? That will make him see the value in me. And guess what he was doing? Something called. He had a company called gemstone. Yeah, yeah, right, and gemstone is a nation building and leadership organization. They, they have um chapters across universities. They have um across states in nigeria and across countries. And I said to myself I am going to be the one to bring a chapter of the Gemstone Leadership Club to another country and a school outside of Nigeria. And I did that. I did that and we celebrated the first year anniversary in that school outside of Nigeria. So it was amazing. So the man was like who's this guy who? Amazing. So the man was like who's this guy? Who's this guy like where's this guy from?
Speaker 2:And when I was done with school, I came back to Nigeria and I said I want to work with him. And I started working with him, as I would call it. I wasn't an intern per se, but yeah, that was what it is for me. And in less than three months of working in the organization as just a normal staff intern, I became his PA. In less than three months, right, and I learned so much from him, so much the love for Nigeria that I got from him. It's immeasasurable. I saw someone who truly loved Nigeria. Yeah, I knew that I love, I love Nigeria. But I saw someone who, who mirrored that and I'm like, yes, that's it. So my love for Nigeria grew and I dug deep into myself to say yes, yes. Now what's my role going to be in nation building and that's how it all started for me as a nation builder, yes.
Speaker 1:Amor, so it sounds like it started out with your. You know, you're the firstborn, I'm the firstborn too, so I can relate to feeling like, okay, you have people that are looking up to you. And then trying to develop yourself Actually, let me use this word for the context of this conversation Try to build yourself and then, in the process of building yourself, you discover people who you were like ah okay. Who are other people that are doing something similar in nigeria?
Speaker 1:yes, and then you ended up finding fella and, yes, you know, being able to work with him, and that grew your love for nigeria and nation building. Absolutely, absolutely, so it sounds like you're someone that's constantly learning something new based on what you, what you've said, what, what's? Yes, what new thing are you learning now that you would like to share? Right now, whether the past week or the past month.
Speaker 2:Speed reading speed reading okay, yes, explain, so I have so I I there was a year in 20, in 2013 I read 102 books. I was in school, so I had a time in 2013, but recently I've been super busy, right, and I love to read. I really love to read my my room. You will find a lot of books in my room, um, you will even find more books and you'll find shoes. You'll find more books. There are more. I have more books than any other thing in my room, and so I'm saying to myself I need to start to read a lot of books. Read more, because nowadays I read like one book in a month and I have lots of books that I need to read, so that's why.
Speaker 2:So that's why I'm learning speed reading. That's what I've started learning that recently. So I've been watching people that, I've been watching lectures on how to read fast and all that. So how do you read fast? I'm still learning. But I think what you do is that you try, and so if there are so many stories in the book, just try and you can just tell. You can just tell when this person is just trying to tell you a story and just try and find the key points that you're looking for. Look at that and just highlight it. Read those key points. You can come back to read, to enjoy the book, but if you want to learn something, just quickly look for those things I learned, and you don't have to read from beginning to the end.
Speaker 2:Just find the ones you want to learn in between the book and then just read that one.
Speaker 1:Okay, so as opposed to reading word by word. It's like, okay, let's zoom out and get the big picture. Yes, yes, yes, yes, zoom out and get the big picture, yes, yes, yes, yes, that sort of thing, okay, okay, no, I love that. I love that. Nigeria nine years.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, you did. You dressed up you said that. By the way, I said this is not nigeria, but I want to start with.
Speaker 1:You know, because we we talk about the nigeria of yesterday, we talk about the nigeria of today and then in. You know, because we talk about the Nigeria of yesterday, we talk about the Nigeria of today and then, in the context of nation building, we talk about the Nigeria of tomorrow. You know, I want to explore all three, but starting with the.
Speaker 1:Nigeria of yesterday. What do you remember about your time growing up in Nigeria and how were things then? From what you can remember, from what you know maybe stories you've heard how were things then? From what you can remember from what you know, yes, maybe stories you've heard how. How were things?
Speaker 2:yeah growing up in Nigeria. Like I said, my parents, my parents are not wealthy people, but they're not poor, right, so we had there was roof over my head. I had a comfortable, comfortable bed to sleep. I could eat three square meals a day and some snacks in between. I would, I would. I would say I was from the middle-class family right growing up, and I was in between the wealthy guys and the poor people. I was aspiring to be among the world of people, right, whilst I saw what the poor people were suffering.
Speaker 2:You get what I mean yeah so thatia, you could afford to buy things even with your minya pay. That nigeria, you could afford to buy things even with the minya pay. Poor people could eat. In that nigeria, poor people could eat. In that nigeria, poor people were not wretched let me use that word. Poor people were people who just didn't have enough money, enough resources, and so they had to cut costs, but they could survive. They could survive in that Nigeria. Now, power was not stable, power was not great. Healthcare was not great it's not as great right now, but people could live Right, yeah, yeah. So that Nigeria great, it's not as great right now, but, you know, but people could leave right, yeah, um, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that nigeria that's the nigeria that I grew, that I grew up in, and the one that I heard of when I was young was the one way people would go to universities, graduate and have a first class and get a job almost immediately. The one that I was also told about is the one where people would leave school. If they graduate in first class, top in their class, they almost get an automatic scholarship to go and school outside of Nigeria. I'm talking Oxford, harvard, I'm talking Cambridge. Right, that was the Nigeria that I was told about, right, uh, that was an injury that I was told about. So, in a sense, that nigeria was there and it was declining, because I didn't see that nigeria. I only heard of that nigeria and I still haven't seen that nigeria. In fact, that nigeria has, it has disappeared. That's, that's in the past. Now, what is right now is that you would even leave school and not have jobs, so, but, but, but that's, uh, that's the question. That's basically, let's take it in in in phases what's that at the time?
Speaker 1:yes, yes yes, yes, yes and so, okay. So it sounds like the nigeria you use, you heard of, and x or one plus one to an extent equals two, meaning you went to school, you could find a job, yes, and the nigeria you, you grew up in, or you remember, was one where you know, at least the people who were not wealthy or poor could still afford certain things with planning. Yes, and so, from the way you're talking and obviously from what we've seen, that's not the Nigeria we have today. It's not the Nigeria we have today. It's not. It's not the Nigeria we have today.
Speaker 2:It's not Nigeria.
Speaker 1:So where is Nigeria today?
Speaker 2:Where is Nigeria today? To answer that question with one line, with one line where is Nigeria today? With just one word, I would say today, with just one word, I would say nowhere, just one word. And I will explain what I mean by that. You see, nigeria is a blessed country. Yeah, we're blessed with human resources, we are blessed with mineral resources, we're blessed with natural resources. We are blessed, we're blessed with natural resources. We are blessed, and from time past, people envision nigeria that in the next couple of years it will be one of the most powerful nations in the world. I'll give you an example with what's happening. Thankfully, it's the Olympics happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We have not won one gold, one reasonable medal right now, and it's just because of the negligence of the government and those that have been given the task to take care of our athletes. Care of our athletes, our, our cyclists. For example, does not have a bicycle to practice with. She's asking from other countries. There is no one taking care of her, right. So we are nowhere. We are we, we are the, the, the giants of africa, is sleeping, sleeping right. And and then you said to yourself what exactly? What exactly is happening? It's simple bad leadership, bad leadership, right? Uh, the. The corruption in the system is. It's so bad that you can see the effect in the daily life of nigerians. Everywhere you turn, you can see it.
Speaker 2:I was saying to a friend of mine a few days ago that those beggars on the streets have increased a thousandfold. A thousandfold. There are young boys that you would see. I live in Lagos State, I live on the island. The number of young boys you see begging by the traffic lights has increased. These young boys, I say to myself when I see them what's their aspiration? What are they thinking about? What are they, what? What's their greatest goal? How, what would they grow up to become. Whilst I do not have kids right now, I am going to have kids right. And if we have more of these young boys who are on the streets, not educated, begging for money, who, in a sense, would most likely graduate into taking arms and robbing, what society are my kids going to grow up with, with those people above them?
Speaker 2:So where's Nigeria? Nigeria is nowhere, and I can. I can go on and on, and on and on, and it's a shame. It's a shame because the brightest of us are leaving us right now. The best of Nigerians are leaving. You would see people selling their properties. You would see people selling their properties, families sending their properties, parents selling their properties to send their children out of nigeria. It's happening. People are living, people are escaping that's the word. Not even living. People are escaping nigeria. Nigeria is a country that's not a war-torn zone, but looks like a war-torn zone. There's no war happening in Nigeria, but it feels like a war-torn zone because of how people are trying to escape. It's sad. It's sad.
Speaker 1:It's sad Because you brought the example of the cyclists right. Yes, that was not even the only case, the one of the, I think, the 100 meters where they forgot to enter her name into the competition.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:So she had to skip out on that, simply because the people that were supposed to do their job did not do their job. Negligence.
Speaker 2:Negligence and that person gets paid to do that job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so okay, Protests happening right. Yeah, Because of a lack of leadership and negligence on all levels local, state, national. All levels yes, If you were, you know, a leader on the local level, state level or national level? What? Are things that you would do to set Nigeria on the right track to get to what it could be.
Speaker 2:That's a very interesting question, because I think the first thing, the first, most important thing for me as an individual is to improve the education system in Nigeria. You see, currently we are training people who are going to become employees and, what's worse, we are training them for a market that's not available. If you were training employees, at least you would assume that there are jobs that will take on these employees. Yeah, but we don't have those jobs. We should be training employers of labor, people who can be self-sufficient. We don't have that. We don't have that.
Speaker 2:We should also invest heavily in skill acquisition, vocational skills, things that people can learn and earn money from legitimately right. We have the numbers. Skills like plumbing, you know, bricklaying, carpentry, bricklaying, carpentry two skills Tailoring two skills that people can learn and earn from everyday. Skills that people need Right. People need plumbers, people need carpenters, people need painters. People need these people Right. Train these people at the local level, those that do not want to go to school. Train them. Give them skills that they can use to live and earn money for all. Not giving them bag of rice, not giving them rice. Rice is not the problem of Nigeria. Everything is not rice. You need to invest heavily in human capital development. You have to do it. And there is also the digital aspect of things, tech. People should start to learn those digital skills at those levels, at those levels from primary school, now, from primary school, so that by the time they are done with university they are already self-sufficient, they can create things for themselves, they can create jobs right, and with the create jobs, they are, in a sense, going to employ more people.
Speaker 2:Who would then be, who would then live better lives? You get what I mean. We are currently operating what I call big government. Everyone relies on the government. Everyone relies on the government. No government should have to go through that, but Nigeria thrives. Nigerian political system thrives on big government. We also need to cut the cost of governance. We need to cut the cost of governance. We also need to improve the transparency in governance. We have to, and government needs to be. The government should be accountable to the people, right? So how? What would I do? I would try my best to improve the, the the governors in in my states. If I was a governor, for example, in my local government, if I was a local government chairman and if I was the president in the country. Right, improve governance. Uh, be accountable to the people. Improve the transparency of governance.
Speaker 1:Cut the cost of governance right um, so it sounds like there's two. There are two components of cost of governance. There's the formal yes cost and there's the informal cost, which is yes to the transparency you're talking about. So formal, obviously salaries, allowances, all those things you know, maintenance of staff and all that, and then the informal is the one I would, I'm sure you're referring to in terms of transparency and corruption yes so, yes, like what it. What would it look like practically to reduce cost of governance on those two levels?
Speaker 2:So formally right. I am of the opinion that there's no reason why a senator cannot do, cannot be a part-time staff.
Speaker 1:You don't have to work full-time.
Speaker 2:You don't have to. You can have other things you're doing right. I don't have to. You can have other things you're doing, right. I don't see any reason why you have to work as a full-time senator. I don't see any reason. Even as a red member. I don't see any reason, I don't see any reason why you should be earning millions of naira with so many, so much allowance for this, allowance for that, allowance for this car maintenance, this. I don't see any reason why a public servant cannot take a public vehicle. I don't see any reason why. I don't see any reason why a public servant should have seven convoy Policemen. I don't see any reason why. Those are things that increase the cost of governance. In that sense, right, because you have to fuel those cars, you have to buy those cars, you have to buy those cars they will start with. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:So there is no need and, interestingly, I'm going to put a picture for you right. Imagine you protecting yourselves from your electorate.
Speaker 1:Think about it, think about it, think about it.
Speaker 2:So so, so you people, people, the people that voted for you, when you are going to them, you are going in with so much policeman, security agency you are going with. Why? What's the problem are you going to? Why, what are you running from? What are you scared of? Because they know that they are not doing their job. So for that reason, they need to protect themselves from the people. So they are. They spend so much money trying to get away from the people that they are governing. How does that make sense? The people you are meant to serve. You separate yourself from them by spending their money taxpayers, money to get away from them. Just make that make sense. So the first thing that I would do, I would reduce the cost of governance. You can survive on one official car. You can't. If you want, if you want to live good, we can do two. You can survive on two official cars.
Speaker 2:You can, you can, you, you can right. Uh, you want, you want to look at every Ministry, every agency. You want to have a transparent system that almost monitors what they are doing. Right, you can see, there's a centralized system that that gives you reports. You want to ensure that those things. Because there's the amount of ghost workers in our ministries how many? It's ridiculous. I don't even have an exact number, but it's in their hundreds. It's in their hundreds. You know, there was a friend that came out recently and they saw that there were ghost workers from years ago, from the early 90s, people who have even left the service system. They are still getting paid. They're getting paid. How do we not know that? How, there's someone benefiting from that amount of money. I tell you.
Speaker 2:There's someone benefiting from that Someone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, education cuts the cost of governance improve security.
Speaker 2:Okay, improve security and strengthen transparency. Yes, yes, yes, you have to improve the security of the people, because if people does not feel safe cannot actively engage in economic activities yeah, they can't. The reason why there's a ridiculous price hike in commodities, in the things that people eat, is because farmers are scared to go to the farm. They're scared, right, you have to also improve infrastructure. They're scared, right, you have to also improve infrastructure. Transporting tomato from the north to the south takes days and tomato is a perishable product, a perishable commodity, if you can improve infrastructure to, in a sense, reduce the travel time and the amount of money that I will spend to to transport it, to reduce the cost of this product. Now, what happens with tomato, for example, is that by the time it gets to the south, half of the tomato is bad. The other half becomes expensive because I need to recuperate my costs from the damage. Everything is connected of the undamaged goods. Everything is connected and, mind you, those transporting it from the north before they get to the south. They have tipped so many security agencies or agents, rather in form of bribes, agents, rather in form of bribes. Aside from those agents, or just those police, policemen and whatever it is. There are people where we call our bureaus yeah, you have to tip them. All of these things are going to go back to the price of the commodity in the market because I'm going to get my money back.
Speaker 2:First things first. I couldn't go to the farm because of insecurity, but I managed to go to the farm. I must have in a sense paid for security to take me there or whatever it is that I try to do, just to be safe, to go and harvest my, my product. Now I have done that to transport it. The cost of transportation is expensive, it takes time, my goods get bad. I pay people on the road in terms of bribe, so I have to make my. I have to get my, my running cost back. What about even price?
Speaker 1:of oh no, no, go ahead, go ahead no, no, please.
Speaker 2:So like what were you gonna say?
Speaker 1:yeah, I was gonna say like even, even price of you know uh fuel. I would just yes, that that also plays a huge role yeah, it does.
Speaker 2:It does it does because I do not have stable, stable power supply, so I have to buy diesel. It's all interconnected. What bad governors does? It's all interconnected, it affects everyone.
Speaker 1:It affects everyone in terms of I know because, yeah, it's sometimes when I think, when I think about it, I think especially being, you know, because I grew up in nigeria. I grew up in a quiet boom and so, yeah, having lived in nigeria for most of my life, at this point, and then seeing what nigeria, or at least where nigeria is now, because, like you said, like the nigerian I grew up in as well. I, you know I wasn't from a wealthy family. You know I also wasn't from a wealthy family.
Speaker 1:I also wasn't from a poor family, middle class. If we wanted something, we planned ahead and we could afford it. So that was how I grew up as well in Akwa Ibom, and so seeing how things have changed in Nigeria, for me it like it disheartening.
Speaker 2:I don't even know if that is if that word carries the weight of what I'm trying to carry the weight of?
Speaker 1:yes, I know I know yeah and sometimes I'm like, okay, what ways? And I think that's one of the reasons why I haven't decided to start this platform, because my, my, my goal for this is to go beyond just podcasting, right? It's like, okay, different initiatives here and there that can support in whatever way possible. And so I want to touch on something that you mentioned. You talked about going to Green Bay Republic, right? Yes, and I'm curious, I know, for context, right now, at least from my understanding, I don't think we have the best like nigeria, has the best relationships with our neighbors niger, mali, especially after, yes, we threatened to invade and then didn't invade through echo.
Speaker 2:That was a joke.
Speaker 1:That was a complete joke and you have to think about it. These countries are basically. Obviously there's trade that goes on between these countries. There's also security partnerships that go on between these countries and us, and so if we're not on good terms, that could also affect us as a country right, yes. But how do you see partnerships with other neighboring countries enabling a stronger Nigeria and a stronger Africa as well?
Speaker 2:You see, our international relations amongst African countries needs to improve. You know, again, in the Nigeria that I grew up in, I remember a friend of mine lost his dad to peacekeeping. I think he was in Liberia. I think he was in Liberia. Yes, that's Nigeria. The Nigeria that will show up for other African countries. The Nigeria that other African countries will wait to hear what they say before they act.
Speaker 2:The Nigeria that, when other world power is trying to in a sense, influence decisions in other african countries, nigeria can step in and say hey, no, no, no, you can't do that. You can't do that, you can't do that. That's the ninja that I, that I that I head off right, that I was told stories about. That's the nigeria that I believe in, not the nigeria that you say. You want to invade a country, a sovereign country, where the people were excited about the coup against a democratically elected government. You didn't think to ask yourself hold up, why would the people be happy about a coup? Okay, why would the people be happy about a coup? Okay, why is the president, who one would say was democratically elected, not doing good things for the people? But you can't say that because, guess what, even you as a country, nigeria, you are not living the right way, you are not governing the right way, so you don't have any it will be hypocritical, and that is the reason why, when the president made a statement, nobody respected it.
Speaker 2:No one respected it. My, my Nigeria, really, I speak as a president against a coup, and it seems as though I'm saying rubbish. My Nigeria, a Nigerian president, the most populous black nation in the world, what? How did we get here? How did we get here? We need to ask ourselves questions, though. We need to. We need to. I know, I know it's a lot. It's a lot, it's a lot. Yeah, I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1:I haven't read the book, but the name of, like there was a country right, there was a country.
Speaker 2:I haven't read the book, but the name of like there was a country. Right, there was a country. I haven't read it, but the name alone, the name alone, there was a country.
Speaker 1:Yes, like I've read it, we don't want to, I'd. I would hope that we never get to a place where we say there was a country. Yes, you know.
Speaker 2:Basically yes, I know there was a nigeria that we remember that used to be like this right that was it.
Speaker 1:Obviously it's not like even was a Nigeria that we remember that used to be like this right, obviously it's not like even that Nigeria was perfect.
Speaker 2:It wasn't perfect.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't perfect because, okay, think about it, we've had, over the past, you know, few decades. We've had, you know, three different, you know, from Jonathan or Yardwa, to Jonathan, to Bwari, to Tinubu right. And it seems like okay, people keep. People keep saying okay, the previous one was better, the previous one was better, and we don't want it to be continue like continually saying the previous. You know, so it's, it's like we'd. I would hope that things will only get better from here.
Speaker 1:That's what it should look like and that's yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess I want to. Okay, I want to focus on the Nigeria of tomorrow with that, with that sense of hope. So you're doing two things to contribute to the Nigeria of tomorrow at least. Well, you're probably doing a thousand things, but the two that I've recognized and you know seeing, is your work with you know, uh, uh, the book, obviously, dear leader yeah as well as um run for nigeria.
Speaker 1:So, dear leader, to basically inform people on how they can contribute to national development and transformation yes and run for nigeria developing and deploying leaders right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Tell us about, dear Leader, like what was your thought process when you decided to write that book.
Speaker 2:So my thought process when I was writing Dear Leader was simple. I'm of the opinion and I know that I'm correct that everyone is a leader, that everyone is a leader and leaders take responsibility. Leadership is not just a title. It's not just a title, it's a responsibility. So when I call you a leader, I'm saying, hey, you are a responsible human being that should be doing something worthwhile. As long as you, as long as you breathe air, you are a leader because you come with an assignment, you come with a purpose, right, you become a leader. Now, everyone is a leader does not mean everyone leads. There are separate things, okay, but everyone is a leader.
Speaker 2:You start to lead when you discover your purpose and you are living purposefully. It is people see you leaving out your purpose and they follow you. Leadership people do not follow people that are not going anywhere and you can't be, you cannot, you can't have a purpose and not be going somewhere, especially when you know what your purpose is. So when you discover your purpose and you are living out your purpose, right, people start to see ah, I like what this guy is doing, I like what this lady is doing, I like what this person is doing. I want to. I want to be close to them, I want to mirror them, I want them to be my mentor, I want them to be my role model. That's the way it works. So then people say, ha, that person is a leader. Now think about those that you call leaders, right. You call them leaders right. They're doing something. Everyone can lead. Everyone is a leader now.
Speaker 2:But we have been told for the longest of time that leadership is about position. It's not about position. You can lead from a position. You can lead from anywhere. In fact, the first person you should lead is yourself. That's the first person you should need is yourself. Did. When you wake up and say I am going to do ABCD today, you are acting out a leadership way of living. That's leadership. That's leadership. So I wrote that book and said, hey, everyone is a leader. And it was like a letter when I said, dear leader, I was talking to you as an individual. Dear leader, these are the things you should be doing. These are the things that will help you discover who you are. This is how you should act out your life. Dear leader, it was a call of. It was a heart-to-heart call. You know when you say dear friend, right, that was what it was about.
Speaker 1:Yes, that was what that book was about. Okay, so it sounds like it was okay a letter to, yes, one people who are already leading and then two people who may not be exercising their leadership potential yet. You say, look, if you are doing something, naturally people will follow, because people want to align with people who are doing something, and so run, run for nigeria is basically developing those leaders that you talked about, or at least you were talking to, in that book, dear leader yes um, yes, so like what?
Speaker 1:what is what do you hope to achieve with those two things? Obviously the book and then run for nigeria everyone will not be in governance people.
Speaker 2:We need people who would go into entrepreneurship, people who would help the economy. We know people in the judiciary system. We know people across board in civil societies. So the book Ketad took care of that, to have leaders in those positions in different sectors across Nigeria. Run for Nigeria now says, okay, now develop people specifically for governance. You see what I mean. Whilst I have written a book that will take care of leaders in different sectors, there is run for nigeria that, not that not develops leaders for governance. So people who will be, uh, ministers, uh, you know, commissioners, local government chairman, governors, governors, governors, presidents, senators, rep members all of these things is what Run for Nigeria is now doing to develop leaders who would then now take on political positions. Leaders of character, leaders of courage, leaders that are competent, leaders that are disciplined, leaders that have integrity, leaders that have a heart of service. That's why I want to serve the people. Those are the kind of leaders that I'm developing with Roll for Nigeria.
Speaker 1:So what does that development process look like?
Speaker 2:So the first thing is, again, education. Educating these leaders on what it means to be a nation builder. Number one, educating these leaders on what it means to be in governance, what governance really means. All right, it's. It's also then deploying them to communities to do community service. You don't have to waste. You get into political position to serve. In fact, your journey. She starts from serving without a position. So that's like the development process. Now I have educated them.
Speaker 2:We've educated the people on what it means to be a nation builder, or what it means to be a service leader, or what it means to be a good governance advocate. Now they are then deployed to their communities to do community service. Whilst they are preparing for governance. Now we would encourage them to register for a political party, into a political party, to participate in elections, to volunteer for those who are currently campaigning. If it's not time for them to, in a sense, run for office to get their pvcs and advocate for people to get their pvcs, to almost look at the constitution and say what can we change, what can we improve, what can we kick out? These are the things that it encompasses. All of these things, um, for, for for run for nigeria?
Speaker 1:okay. So for someone, let's say me, for example, if I wanted to be a part of run for nigeria, yes, or anyone wanted to be, like what does that process look like for you know, beginning that involvement?
Speaker 2:so the. So the first thing would be to register your interest. Okay, all right. However, we haven't even gotten to.
Speaker 2:So where we are right now for Run for Nigeria is that we are going on a campus tour. So, first of all, are we keen that nation, building responsibility in the hearts of people, that consciousness that they have a responsibility to Nigeria. Afterwards, we, in a sense, have their details, do like a mentorship for them, bringing experts in these areas in governance, leadership, advocacy, activism and all of this just to train them, mentor them, and then we again, like I said, give them projects. So there are steps. The first step is to enlist, register your interest Right.
Speaker 2:Then we go through like a process where we then, in a sense, applications, like applications, come in. We look at these applications. We say to ourselves um, should this person scale? What? Where should we put this person? Where should we put this person? And and because we, we do not have the um, the capacity right now to take lots of people, so we do 50 to 100 people per time, right, um, when we, as as we go, we would then have it in the thousands, but right now, 500 people per time. You know, you, you, you mentor them, you train them, you give them opportunities to volunteer, um, you put that consciousness in them that, uh, they have to be responsible citizens of the country and their community okay, okay, and so I'm guessing the link is on your instagram, right like your instagram it's there it's there, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll probably get it from you and link it here, uh fantastic yes, so how much? How much hope do you have in, in things changing, especially when you know it can seem like people and citizens are crying, but they're not being listened to despite their cries?
Speaker 2:so my hope, my hope for nigeria, lies in in, when I see nigerians pressing hard, irrespective of the decadence in the political system, of the decadence in the political system. So I see myself, I see you and I'm hopeful for Nigeria. Right, that's what my hope is. My hope has long left the political system. My hope is now in the people that I see thriving, that I see doing things in their own space, that I see trying to advocate for good governance, that I see trying to form a group. That's what my hope is right now. So my hope in Nigeria is in the people. It's in the people.
Speaker 2:I often say something and it is this Nigeria is not a great country. Nigeria is not a great country. Nigeria is not a great country. Nigeria has the potential to be a great country, but Nigeria is not a great country. When you look at the metrics that are used to measure great countries, we are not on the top five major great countries. We are not on the top five.
Speaker 2:Healthcare, security, governance, infrastructure, education, right, judicial system, all of these things. Where you measure Nigeria. With these things, where are we in terms of good governance? Where are we in terms of quality education? Where are we in terms of security? Where are we in terms of our judicial system? Where are we in terms of our democratically elected officials? Where are we in in infrastructure?
Speaker 2:When you look at these things, you realize that nigeria is not a great country. But nigeria has the potential to be a great country and that's the reason why you see, because we've been told over and over again that nigeria is a great country we have now become people who complain because you expect greatness from a great country. You see what I mean. So when you are traveling by road and you are seeing bad road, you are seeing why is the road bad now? Because somewhere in your mind you are living in a great country. When you go to the hospital and there's no lights in the hospital, I wonder what's happening now, because somewhere in your mind, a great country should have good health care. You see what it is?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's not the case and I mean, if you think about it too, is like, yes, you have the country component right where it's like, okay, nigeria should be, this is, this is where nigeria is and this is where it should be right. Yes, and you have the country component right. It was like, okay, nigeria should be, this is this is where. Nigeria is and this is where it should be Right. Yes. And I think the reason, to an extent, why people have that expectation.
Speaker 1:Correct me if I'm wrong but, I think is a couple of things you know one the resources, whether it's natural resources that we have through you know lithium. We haven't really explored lithium, which could be very great in terms of technology, but you know petroleum, you know culture and creative industry. I think that's a very big one there. And so I think, when people see the different resources that we have, that's one that we have, that's one and then two when they see the talent like the, the, the people that you know, okay, we have one of the best doctors you know in the world, like yes, yes, but then it's like the system isn't making it conducive for them to practice in the country, to make it in the country.
Speaker 1:You're not wrong you know, yes, we, we have some of the best minds in terms of. You know, creativity as well and, to an extent, creativity is is, at least I feel like it's not as tightly controlled as other areas, and so that's why you can see a lot of people thriving yes, in that area.
Speaker 1:That's it. That's because, because there's nothing that's really clamping down on that Holding them down, yes, yes, and so it's like when people see that we have, it's not that we don't have the people, it's not that we don't have the resources. We do, we do, but how do you? You know so.
Speaker 2:And that's the frustration. That's the frustration, that's the frustration. What she said right now is so correct. Imagine the, the, the, the, the. The sector where you do not have government control succeeds. The creative industry, for example, our artists are shutting down o2 arena. Thousands of people are coming to listen to artists. They're going on tours, right, like you said, because there is little or no government influence over that. The people are succeeding, and guess what?
Speaker 2:in the olympics, right the team that has gone far with the women. The women basketball team the one. The women basketball team the one. The women basketball team representing representing nigeria. They beat canada. They I think they were limited in the quarter final by the us by 74 to 80 they're about. I can remember the score. Guess what? The 90 of, though, nigerians did not grow up in Nigeria. So we have the people, but we do not have the policies that can help the people unleash their potential.
Speaker 1:I would even argue that this yes, I would argue that it's not even policy. The reason why I say it's not policy is because it's not a policy, is because, I think, because, okay, you can turn on the news, whether it's whatever news channel you're looking at, and say, oh, this policy has been passed, oh, this policy has been.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, it's the implementation. I see what mean.
Speaker 1:It's the implementation of the policy, because what policy does is it gives people hope. Ah, policy has come, but then are you going to follow through with that policy Is the main thing.
Speaker 2:Yep, yes, absolutely 100%. You're correct. You're correct. So you see, like you said, people have expectations of Nigeria, for Nigeria and from Nigeria, and they're not seeing it, for Nigeria and from Nigeria, and they're not seeing it. So you see Nigeria's brilliant minds, amazing people doing wonderful things as individuals, but as a collective, we are failing.
Speaker 2:So you're wondering what's happening here. So you can see that the potential is there and it gets worse when you see the, the amount, the money that is being called that was stolen, that was looted. You're wondering what's going on here. People have universities in their pockets. People have hospitals in their bank accounts. People have other people's safety buried on the ground in terms of the money that would have improved it.
Speaker 2:You have, you have thousands and millions of dollars on naira being stolen, the people's commonwealth being stolen, right, and you hear it in the news and you're wondering what's going on here now, what's happening? So that expectation of you see we have the news and you're wondering what's going on here now, what's happening? So that expectation of you saying we have the potential to be great, but people don't understand this right now, people still think we are a great country. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're not a great country. You're not a great country, not yet, not yet, not yet.
Speaker 2:But you have the potential to be great and that is why you and I have to start saying to people we have the potential to be great and these are the ways to unlock that potential, to then have a great country where your kids, where you feel safe, where you have a job, where when you are sick and you can go to the hospital, you'll be taken care of, where the policies favor a human-centric, where you can go to school and create jobs, you can go to school and be employable. That country is possible. That's the great country that we can become. That country is possible, is possible.
Speaker 1:That's the great country that we can become. One of the things I think about when you say that, especially as it relates to job creation, is Nigeria has a strong, young population. So if you look at Nigeria, I think 70 of nigerians are under the age of 30. Okay, um. If you look at other countries like asia and even the united states, one of the struggles right is that their population is aging.
Speaker 1:There's an aging population so what that does is, yes, it decreases productivity, right, yes, which could affect the gdp and the economy. And so that's why a lot of some of these countries albeit they don't have perfect immigration policies, but that's why some of them are opening up and saying actually come and work for us because, yes, we don't have the talent, we don't have the talent, we don't have the young people, like a lot of most people are aging and older, right? You?
Speaker 2:know, you.
Speaker 1:one could argue that that's due to, maybe you know, people choosing to have fewer kids and all that stuff. But Nigeria does not have that problem. Nigeria has the opposite, where it's like we have the talent, we have the talent we have the people that are on that. You know 70 percent on that aid of that, so it means we have a younger population than most other nations population, yes, but we are not utilizing it.
Speaker 1:we're not, and so it's I've. I was, um, I was okay. So I was talking to one of my friends about this recently, yeah, and he and I was telling him how sometimes I just think about it and I get I frustrated is not the right word. And the reason when he was, when I said that, one of the things he said was he pointed me back to is it Ecclesiastes? There's something that's you know, I think Solomon said in Ecclesiastes about wisdom. Like, basically, if you grow in wisdom, you get more frustrated, something like that.
Speaker 2:Ah, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. Yeah, because you know what should be and that is not happening. And you're wondering why.
Speaker 1:Yes, because if you don't know what should be, you'll still be frustrated, but it wouldn't be to the level of. It wouldn't be that bad.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I agree. That happens to me, a lot.
Speaker 2:That happens to me a lot, because the more I'm aware of what is possible and I'm seeing that that is not happening in my country, the more I am frustrated, you see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you see.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so, the more educated you are as an individual and the more you know what is, what should be, what should be, uh, obtainable, but that is not happening. You get frustrated and and interestingly, um you a country like when I was in benedict republic for about four or five years we had two, four, seven power supply, better Republic, better Republic, better Republic is not in the top five economies in Africa, but they have stable power supply. Nigeria has epileptic power supply. That's an example.
Speaker 1:So that alone should frustrate me I mean, we would experience it today yeah, yes, we did experience it today, so you so.
Speaker 2:So you see, you see that. You see that, like you said, the the more you grow in wisdom, the more you. You are almost frustrated by the foolishness that you see. That's the word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also I want to say it's not like me. I'm wise, I'm just I'm learning, I'm still learning. I've not reached. Maybe I've reached.
Speaker 2:Wisdom is not wisdom is a continuous thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:The more you seek wisdom, the more you realize that there is so much more, there's so much more, there's so much more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah yeah yeah, my guy, I don't want to take up too much of your time, I know.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:In one sentence. How do you believe we can build the Nigeria of our dreams? Because that's what this podcast is about.
Speaker 2:How can we build the Nigeria of our dreams?
Speaker 1:Yeah, or the society, Nigeria and society of our dreams. Like what do you think?
Speaker 2:Okay, how can we build the Nigeria of our dreams?
Speaker 2:You know this is a good wrapping up question. I think to build the Nigeria of your dreams would require Nigerians that are resilient in their pursuits of a functioning Nigeria, and Nigerians that are resilient in their pursuit of a functioning Nigeria, and Nigerians that are driven by service to the country. To build the Nigeria of our dreams would require Nigerians who feel that they are responsible for the success of Nigeria. To build the Nigeria of our dreams would require people to stop waiting on the government to fix the things in their communities, at least the things that they can do right now where they are, and that's an example of what you're doing.
Speaker 2:So we need people like you to build the Nigeria of our dreams.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate that. And then one sentence again what's something you wish more people knew about you and your work that maybe they don't currently know?
Speaker 2:Half. Maybe one thing that I wish more people knew you and your work that maybe they don't currently know half maybe. Maybe one thing that I wish more people knew about my work that they don't currently know. One thing, I would say that it is that my work is not driven by profitability but, service service, service, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:And then how can our audience contribute to that work of service that you're doing?
Speaker 2:truthfully, because that this work of service needs to get to almost every part of Nigeria. We would need the resources we can get, especially as it concerns financial resources, volunteers, because, again, to educate a people is expensive. Again, to educate a people is expensive. To educate a people, well is more expensive.
Speaker 2:Okay, and to also try and educate a people away from the current system is way, way expensive. So we would appreciate the resources that we can get in terms of finance to get this nation-building conversation, this leadership development conversation, to the NUK and Krenos of Nigeria, development conversation to the NUK and Krenos of Nigeria and to help Nigerians who are moved, who are controlled by hunger, to reduce that. Now, if, if people respond hungry people respond to those who give them food. So if you can take away that wrong source of survival, you can then empower that person to live a meaningful life where they contribute to nation beauty in the right way.
Speaker 2:People get paid money to go and steal ballot boxes and the reason why you can pay those people is because they don't even have that money in the first place. They are not earning any money, they are hungry. So when you give them that money, they go and steal ballot boxes. But if you can take away that sort of hunger poverty from the people, you can reduce the amount of people that are then stealing ballot boxes, as an example yes, Okay, definitely, definitely no, my guy.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you taking out the time.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I know it's a Saturday. Okay, definitely, definitely. No, my guy, I appreciate you taking out the time.
Speaker 2:You know, I know it's a Saturday, you could be sleeping, you could be resting. Thank you so much, but you know, I think I've learned a lot from just this conversation. Thank you so much yeah.
Speaker 1:So if you got value from that noble conversation, you know what you can do. Let us know in the comment section, but also hit the like button. Why? Because it helps us reach more people and also get more guests, like the amazing guests that you heard from today, so we can just keep it going, uh. So yeah, go ahead and do that and do us a solid. Thank you very much.