Bike Sense

2 Kids, 2 E-bikes, No Car: A Year-Round Cycling Family in Whistler

• The BC Cycling Coalition

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NOTE: This episode originally aired in October of 2023. Since then, Brendan and Amanda and family have moved from Whistler to Nelson, BC. They now own a family car, which they mostly use to get to the mountain to ski. They continue to cycle year-round.

Peter Ladner brings in son Brendan and daughter-in-law Amanda to expose the reality of life as a bikes-only family in Whistler, BC. We talk ice, snow, studded tires, e-bikes, singing kids, irate drivers, and Whistler's political will ... or notable lack thereof.
 
 Read about the Whistler Climate Action Plan at
 www.whistler.ca/climate-action/big-moves
 
Please feel free to reach out to Amanda Ladner at amandabelle@gmail.com if you'd like to talk Whistler, bikes, or family cycling.

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The Bike Sense podcast with Peter Ladner is produced by the BC Cycling Coalition – your voice for safer and more accessible cycling and active transportation in British Columbia. Membership in the BCCC is now FREE! The future of this podcast depends on people like you becoming members at BCCycling.ca. Please join us.

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SPEAKER_00:

The following is an encore broadcast of an episode we originally aired in October of 2023. Since this interview, the Ladner clan has moved to Nelson. They now own a family car, but they say they mostly use it just to get to the mountain to ski, and they still cycle through the winter.

SPEAKER_04:

Welcome to BikeSense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in BC. I'm your host, Peter Latier, the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. My guests today are Brendan and Amanda Latin. This is the nepotism podcast. Brendan is my son, Amanda's my daughter-in-law, and they are the parents of my two of my grandchildren, Gavin and Soren, age nine and six. And the reason that we're talking is that Brennan and Amanda live in Whistler, and they have not had a car for I'll get the exact number of years. How many years?

SPEAKER_03:

We're moving on three years here.

SPEAKER_04:

Three years without a car, and they've done everything they need to do with two e-bikes and sometimes some trailers. We're going to get into how they made it all work. But first of all, welcome Brendan, welcome Amanda.

SPEAKER_02:

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yay.

SPEAKER_04:

Amanda, could you describe from your point of view what it's been like to have two bikes, no car?

SPEAKER_01:

It's been a process that we've had to learn over time. And I think that's with any uh big change you make. Uh it's a big change, so then you have to keep adapting and responding to that and uh and just making the priority about safety always.

SPEAKER_04:

Can you tell us tell us what you do specifically with the kids and the bikes?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so we yeah, we take them to school. Um, that's every day. Uh we take them to the mountain. So on the weekends when the snow comes, we bike them straight to the foot of the mountain and uh and get on the lift. And uh we bike them to the grocery store and we grocery shop. Uh and if we need to travel, we've even biked, uh, we've put the bikes on uh the bus and we've taken the bikes to Vancouver and then onwards to Victoria, and then we get off the bus and then we bike to where our travel destination is, wherever that might be. So we bike all around. And as transportation becomes more accessible for e-bikes, we'll continue to expand uh how far we go. But certainly uh it has uh made our footprint smaller in the sense that we don't try to go as far places, we don't necessarily go up to Pemberton just for, you know, on a whim or up to Joffrey Lakes. We have to be very conscious of using and utilizing the neighborhood and the amenities that we have close by.

SPEAKER_04:

Brendan, what have you learned and how have you adjusted as the years go by on e-biking everywhere?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, boy, we've learned a lot. Well, first we got an e-bike and then we learned that we needed two e-bikes because we competed for who would get the e-bike, because you realize for example, going to the ski hill, it's so much easier with an e-bike than walking or driving because you can drive your e-bike right to the edge of the snow, park within a few steps of the lifts, and so we used to fight about who got to take the e-bike to the mountain to go skiing because the other person didn't want to have to walk home the whole ten minutes.

SPEAKER_04:

So you've got two bikes, but you've also got did you have to get trailers? Do you want the kids just right on behind you on the seat? How does that work?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, first you have to decide what bike is best suited for your needs. So in our case, we want a bike that can carry two kids on it. Uh sometimes three kids if they have friends with us. And uh so we demoed a few bikes. And for example, the rad wagon has a very long wheelbase, it's quite difficult to maneuver. And in Whistler, uh, because they've built so many impediments to the smooth travel of bicycles, you have to go through these gates and do these awkward turns and things. And it was all it was very, very difficult to do that in a safe way because you have to come basically to complete stop on a rad wagon. So we found that the volt bike Kodiak that we got was a better choice for what we needed. It's more agile. And actually, since then, other parents have replaced their rad wagon with ours by speaking to us about what we do. So you need the right bike for that. Um, also, it's got enough enough power to be able to carry two or three people on it and get you up the hills.

SPEAKER_04:

So let's cut to the winter. Everybody's thinking, how do you do this when there's ice and snow on the road? Amanda, how does it work?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so it admittedly, the first year we did not have the right setup. Uh, we we I did have some slips. Um, and so I definitely encourage everyone to speak to someone that does it and learn about uh how to do it. Um, it it's there's multiple steps to it. One is knowing your route really well already and knowing the places that are, you know, potentially uh you can slip on. So knowing your route and using the same route daily because you'll see it change. Um, second for me, the big life changer was the year uh that we got snow tires. So as soon as we got winter tires with studs in them.

SPEAKER_02:

Studd, yeah, studded tires.

SPEAKER_01:

Studded tires, it just changed my life. Uh, it really made me it's very safe to ride on snow, ice, any kind of conditions. You feel very supported. Um, you still have to be very conscientious and and watch where you're going, but the studded tires has changed my life. And so now I feel much more comfortable going out in all conditions when it's snowing. Um, yeah, but certainly Brendan does the major snow days, admittedly, yes. He's he'll still do those, um, which just so that I I'm not as he feels more comfortable. Um, I didn't grow up biking in the snow, even though I grew up in Edmonton. I that wasn't part of our everyday. So yeah, the studded tires. Then the next thing is you have to dress properly. You actually have to wear a full ski outfit, um, insulated, warm on an e-bike. It is cold. Uh, you need to wear proper gloves, a helmet, and goggles because when it's snowing, you can't see as well. So you need to be able to have goggles so you can see in all lights, just like you would up the mountain.

SPEAKER_04:

Brendan, can you elaborate on clothing and ways to keep warm and dry? You've got to get the kids on the kids have to wear all this stuff too?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, yeah, the kids, it's great if the kids have uh a onesie, but they're wearing ski gear.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, not everybody.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, but not everybody listening to this is Okay, so let's go, let's go through what that is, right? You have a base layer, you which basically uh we live in the mountains, so I'm wearing a base layer on my pants, uh starting end of October till the end of April. Every day, all day, no matter what I'm wearing, unless I'm uh at work.

SPEAKER_04:

That that's like long underwear.

SPEAKER_03:

Long underwear, yeah, like a marina wool base layer. Then you have whatever the pants are, let's call it a pair of jeans or a pair of pants, and then you have uh uh snow pants. Now, those snow pants, they gotta be loose, right? If you have them tight fitting, which might work for skiing, it's not the same because you're bringing one knee up with the other knee down, you need more room to move, right? So I've tried, I've actually had three different pairs of pants, but I keep going back to the original pair because they have the best mobility. That pair needs to be insulated. Just a simple shell means you would need another layer of pants underneath. That gets a lot clunkier and tougher to move in. So having uh an insulated pant that is, let's call it one size too big for you, with a waist that you can get tightened, tightened. Now, also it's gonna get really dirty. Right? You're gonna get dirty slush, you're gonna get stuff off your chain, etc. etc. So uh just be ready that they're gonna get dirty. So it was easy for me to choose. I went to the thrift store, I got a pair, and then the last thing is is make sure that they're waterproof. Right? Water resistant, anything below the top level of waterproof is not good enough because you are gonna get soaked. Um, moving up the body, uh, much to my wife's dismay, I wear a workman's jacket uh from Mark's Workwear World that has the big reflective thing on it, so it's like a reflective vest because I feel safer on darker mornings, having more visibility. Also, the jacket is immediately warm when you put it on and is pretty good, except for on the wettest of days. And the wettest of days, you've got to wear the actual Gore-Tex, where you know, your Heli Hansen, Arcteryx, whatever, that high-end Gore-Tex that will really keep you dry. The goggles need to be light, so yellow or clear, as if you're going night skiing, because you're gonna be biking at night. If you have any tint in them, it's gonna impede your visibility. And then lastly, uh it's the mitts, bar mitts, they're called, which are the neoprene pockets that sit on the outside of your uh handlebars. That's gonna keep your hands dry and warm and keep the wind off. I tried Hestrar gloves, I tried snowmobiling gloves, I bought all different pairs of gloves, and nothing will keep your hands warm. You can wear lousy gloves in the bar bits, and your hands will stay warm because there's no wind and there's no water, there's no snow getting onto your hands. So, from the gear perspective, that's my additions to Amanda's uh insights there.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, so now you're warm and dry and you got your studded tires. Amanda, where do you go where you're not gonna be in danger of being hit by a car or a truck?

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Well, it's an important question because where do you go? It's uh you do need to share the roads. Um, you're you're gonna be sharing the roads, and so the municipalities that are making bikes a priority, that means before cars, before trucks. That's what making biking is a priority in terms of the their those individuals' safety. It's a net gain to everyone, the municipalities that are actually trying to make biking safe. It is just an ultimate gain for all the community. And so, admittedly, I'm gonna say there's certain municipalities that are making it safe, it's doing their best. Uh, Vancouver and Victoria are some of the best places to bike. And and I know that I spoke to the Gibson's mayor, and he is also very invested in in this as well. So we'll see if he does it. Um, but yeah, where do I go? I mean, I prefer to bike on the valley trail. And the problem with that is that it's caused our community a quite a bit of upheaval because my e-bike goes 20 kilometers an hour and I'm moving quickly, and there's and we're sharing the path with pedestrians, cyclists that are not on e-bikes, mountain bikers, dog walkers, right? So it's becoming that traffic and that ability to maneuver around multiple flows within the valley trail system is now something that is causing us to change and adapt as a community. And as I said earlier in this podcast, it's been an adaptation and evolution since we started and moved here. Um, certainly when we first moved here, we were some of the only ones electric with electric bikes on everyday commuting versus some people will take out electric bikes just for a fun lifestyle or tourist engagement for an hour of a day, right? So it's not, there was a little bit of e-biking, but it wasn't like it is three years later. Now what we're seeing is more and more families and parents inspired and motivated to take their kids on an e-bike because it's just easier in a hilly place to get your kids around, get them to soccer practice, get them to, you know, this year we've been in baseball now three years, and we started being the only electric bike family coming in onto the baseball diamond with our two kids. But now we come to baseball and there's all those electric bikes with all their kids. Um, and that's great because uh more and more what we're seeing is that that's beneficial for children as well to be spending time outside um for that longer period of time. And and so we'll see. I'm sure that those families are also having um challenges and adapting as we've had to do. And so now more and more families will ask us about our tires and how we set up our baskets and all of this. So it's a it's a learning, it's a learning together, and we need to continue to be learning together and and helping each other out.

SPEAKER_04:

So, Amanda, you've talked about how some parents have been inspired. Brendan, can you talk a little more about the reaction you get when you're riding around on an e-bike, either from parents or drivers or politicians that you're lobbying to try to get support? What's it been like?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, there's a few layers to that. Uh, because when you're biking in the winter, you have to bike where it's plowed. And the Valley Trail, which uh is a multi-use path, gets plowed most of the time, especially if you call them and tell them it hasn't been plowed. Uh but they aren't, it's not always plowed ready for your morning commute. However, the roads are always plowed for your morning commute. So you end up having to bike on the road. And when you bike on the road, you have to bike where it's plowed, which means that you are in the way of people driving cars and trucks, and even though the speed limit's 30, and even though we have studded tires and we're going 30, they get very impatient.

SPEAKER_04:

So just let me be clear are you out in the traffic, like in the same path as the cars and trucks, or are you just off to the side but not very far off?

SPEAKER_03:

You there's only a path wide enough for one car. You can't be on the side, otherwise, you're in a foot of snow. You're talking about residential streets.

SPEAKER_04:

Residential streets or on the highway.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm talking about residential streets on snowy days.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh in fact, to get from our house to school, there is no multi-use path to take. You have to go on the road. Right? Because otherwise, if we took the multi-use path, we would take a four-kilometer trip, which is otherwise 1.6 kilometers, uh, if we stay on the roads. So we have to bike on the roads. And when it snows, you have to bike where it's been plowed, which means you are therefore in the way of a truck that is capable of going faster than the speed limit, with a driver that desperately wants to go faster than you. So uh what we find is like definitely on the snowy days when you have to go in the middle of the road, you will be subjected to aggressive behavior by impatient drivers because there's not like if it was a plastic bag on the road, people would slow down. Oh, what's that? Drive around it. But if it's a cyclist deliberately in front of you, being safe with their family, I don't know if anything enrages pickup truck drivers more than that. And so we get subjected to close passes, we get subjected to yelling, people have thrown stuff at us, um, lots of dangerous driving behavior. And unfortunately, you gotta build a thick skin if you want to be a change maker, because the trucks are the status quo, and we're trying to make positive change, and we're just actually trying to get around on a bike. And uh sometimes you have to I've had I know Amanda's had more experiences than me because people will uh speak down to women more than to men. So, but uh, anyways, you have to share the road. So there's confrontation and to get through the center of Whistler, the village, which is our town center, there is no multi-use path to get around. There's only sidewalks where you have to walk your bike. So you are forced to go on the roads. So unfortunately, we are forced through the design of the infrastructure of our town to be in conflict with drivers uh on snowy days.

SPEAKER_04:

Talk a little bit about the kids. Like they're what it's like for them to either be on the on the on the bike on a happy day or when somebody's yelling at you. Amanda? Do they enjoy it? Do they look forward to getting on the bike?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. I mean, well, again, so you have to understand that there isn't an option, right? Like we there's not another choice. That's how we get around. So the kids, uh, the kids are definitely of, you know, they enjoy it. When we first started, my younger one used to sing the whole time. He would just sing and he would sing me as we, you know, biked around the town and um even on snowy days, you know. So uh I think they have, you know, what we would term a grittiness for it, um, which is is built, it's developed. Um, they know they need to dress in a certain way. They will sometimes choose to not, but that that has its own consequences. Um, but I mean, and definitely the safety, safety first. So we're always trying to be safe. Um I have to say, like my kids don't like it when we get verbally abused by drivers. Like they will start now shouting back and uh and because they feel it and it's it's very it's very unkind towards us. Um it's uh they know that it it's it not only distracts us, but it it uh it it really impacts us. It's very stressful to be yelled at by cars and trucks and taxi drivers. Get out of the way, you shouldn't be on the road. Like, well, where are we supposed to go? Um, and so it uh I have uh contacted the municipality and telling. them that we are abused because we don't have our own space to to bike. And so is, you know, it's more than just a safety issue for us sharing the path. It's a safety issue for our own emotional and psychological safety. And it's it's very, it's it's very sad actually. It's sad that drivers are so anxious about us being on the road. They don't want to hit us, you know, they don't want to do that. And so there's a fear. There is a fear that somewhere in that anger, and I hear it and I do have compassion for it. But I just every time I just want to say well then tell your municipality to prioritize bikes so that we don't have to share the road.

SPEAKER_04:

Let's talk about that for a minute. As you may know, the BC Cycling Coalition is championing safe routes throughout the province. And Whistler actually ranks pretty high by by the number of kilometers of so-called protected routes for cyclists. Brendan, you've taken this pretty seriously I know and you ran for council, almost got elected on this as part of your platform. What has been the reaction from the politicians? Because Whistler, along with so many other municipalities, has an active transportation plan that purports to be delivering the very benefits that you're looking for. The province has a clean BC plan that's trying to get people supposedly out of their cars to doing the very things you're doing, but it doesn't sound like it's landing very well on the road.

SPEAKER_03:

So discuss the just tell us a little bit about the political climate, the support for what you're doing at the municipal level well first uh I'm going to question the methodology of the BC Cycling Coalition to have been able to give Whistler a good score because multi-use path is not a protected bike lane.

SPEAKER_04:

Well let's be clear and as we're not we're not advocates of multi-use paths either but I it's not our rankings but other people have said by some measures of of uh comfort and convenience and so on you do have Whistler has Whistler has exactly six feet of protected bike lane six total feet of bike only infrastructure and it's not even open because they built it and never connected it on either end.

SPEAKER_03:

There is nowhere in Whistler where bike has priority zero kilometers. Any not even one square inch of Whistler prioritizes cycling because it's all valley trail which we is our multi-use path network here and it says very clearly that pedestrians have right of way dogs have right of way the speed limit is 15 kilometers an hour and that is the core of our cycling infrastructure in Whistler in fact that's the entirety of the cycling infrastructure in Whistler and so uh as Amanda's already talked about you're forced into conflict with people who don't want you there. And car drivers who are taking their dogs for walks on the trail really do not want you and your family and your trailer and your kids going 30 kilometers trying to get where you want to go.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay but let's get back to the politics you Amanda mentioned you you you talked to the Muni. What do they say? Why did are they actually going to fix it?

SPEAKER_03:

They throw up their hands they say we've got this amazing valley trail what are you talking about? Why aren't you using it? Why aren't you taking this meandering trail that takes twice as many kilometers to get you where you want to go that's the they think they've already they've already done it and they shrug their shoulders because they don't bike yeah the politicians don't bike bureaucrats don't bike but also um there is biking of a uh driver's mindset of cyclists who have people who have cars who think car first and then there's people who only have bikes and when you only have a bike you see the world through a different lens and I think it's psychologically impossible for the people in government in Whistler to think cyclist first. Now they've had since 2012 the every transportation plan that's ever been released says we will prioritize biking and walking yet there is not even one inch of cycle only trail in Whistler.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's our number one climate action that they were we're trying to take in our big six climate actions is to encourage people to take to bike and walk which is so funny it's like their number one priority and they're they themselves the politicians except for Kathy don't bike and I saw then I've called them out via letters to the peak newspaper or local saying have you tried it have you actually done it because once you do it and you try to get to the library to the school right to to the grocery store the three most important things you don't have safe biking. It is not safe and I need to I need to take my kids to the library and I need to take my kids to the mountain and so and so every day we are negotiating our own safety every day.

SPEAKER_03:

And and to do it you almost have to put your elbows out and take up space on the road so you're not pushed off the road and by doing so it is perceived by the drivers that we are creating the conflict when actually we just want to be safe.

SPEAKER_04:

Well I should say that uh the BC Cycle coalition and numerous other cycling advocates have been championing a safe passing distance where a car passing a bike would have to keep at least one meter, 1.5 meters away I'm not sure that's going to have a lot of impact in your situation. But uh I wanted to just um change subject slightly we talked about your you're only with e-bikes first of all does it have to be an e-bike do you see people who don't have e-bikes but just have regular bikes it absolutely must be an e-bike 125% you have hills you have weight you can't take two kids and then the other thing we haven't even talked about here so far is that you have to have a trailer.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah the trailer is the trunk of the car that you're towing behind your bike that's how you carry your groceries that's how you carry your skis that's how you carry your picnic stuff your festival chairs your blankets your coolers uh all of those things so uh you have to have that and you can't possibly tow that up a hill pedaling because you'll get you'll start sweating in 10 pedals.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay so you've got the e-bikes but and you've mentioned that sometimes you'll be going to Vancouver so you put the e-bikes in the in the bus because you can't drive to Vancouver in your car uh what are other some some other workarounds you must take taxis at some point you must rent cars and so on and if you could just talk about that and also the the savings you're yeah like have you worked out the dollar savings of doing this versus owning a car either one of you can yeah the uh when uh the average car owner in Canada spends eleven thousand dollars a year on their car and let's say you're being cheap and you have a beater and you don't have to repair it much you're probably paying half that much you know um so if you consider your budget of even if it's$500 per month well it costs nine cents to fill a bike battery from zero to full um so basically the cost of the energy is negligible uh which means that there are times where you will take a taxi but you don't flinch at it because you've saved all this money of course splash on a taxi treat yourself you're going out for a nice dinner you dress nice take a taxi of course take a taxi if we want to go to uh visit our relatives somewhere else in British Columbia we rent a car but you have budget to do that you don't flinch and did you know renting a car for an entire month is only$1400 for a brand new car it's not even that expensive it's barely much more than owning a car yourself.

SPEAKER_03:

So we do spend money on those things. And when we go to Vancouver we take the bus and what we've learned is gosh is it more relaxing taking the bus. You don't worry about traffic you get to go through HOV lanes and then we get there we take our bikes out of the bottom and we can zip around Vancouver faster than you could in a car. And it's fun.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah how much fun is it? Because we always say that cycling is more fun but then those people if you're sitting in your the comfort of your car and you're looking at somebody in the rain and the snow and the you can't you wonder that's not possibly fun. Is it fun?

SPEAKER_03:

Hell yeah it's fun even in the rain and snow it's fun because when you're in the elements and you're out there like actually feeling the world on your skin it feels good.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And there's no doubt that our kids arrive at school our teachers have told us this that the kids arrive at school more invigorated first of all they're always properly dressed for school because they had to to get to school so playtime and stuff they have the right gear instead of being thrown into a warm car. And we you know we chit chat and we sing and we do all kinds of stuff while we're biking in the elements and like our kids don't care if it's minus 20 and snowing because they don't they never mention it. Is it is it a like torrential rainstorm? They don't care because they've got the right gear.

SPEAKER_01:

It's fun we're just getting over that's how we get around is it always fun for you Amanda is it always fun it's both it's both challenging and so in that way it is fun. And uh you know I'm gonna be honest some days it's very uncomfortable you know and so we've we're always adapting and trying to make it more comfortable more safe and so this is a a constant adaptation and yeah I've you know the more comfortable you are uh the more the more you enjoy it so dress warm uh and on rainy days uh dress properly right so that you arrive in your place and you're you just take off all your stuff you don't you know and then you're you're basically in your clothes. So the nice thing about e-biking is that you'll minorly sweat. So those uh end-of-use facilities that everyone is promoting, sure that's good. It's better just to have a proper hanger for people and boots so that people can basically almost dry their stuff versus having a whole you don't need a whole shower and stuff, right? That would be involved if you were just cycling to work. So I like that.

SPEAKER_03:

I like that you don't arrive all sweaty um but you've still been outside enjoying the elements and getting to your place quicker than a vehicle so we're gonna wrap up and I'd just like to ask both of you to talk to other people in the province in smaller towns situations like yours maybe without a multi-use path um what's your what's your sort of general advice uh overall uh suggestions to them to make this possible in their lives Brendan you gotta start doing it that's the biggest thing because the critical mass the more people that do it the more people will see that they do it the more people doing it the safer it gets so if you have an e-bike you have the trailer you've got all the right gear gear you've got you know not just one set but probably a second set as well so that if you come home soaking wet but you need to go out again in an hour or two your stuff isn't dry you've got a second set it only takes 45 seconds to take all of your wet stuff off and be in your home or office close right but you've got to start doing it and then um as a part of that you're going to be seen doing it and that will inspire others because we have had other parents in Whistler come to us and say we've seen you do it every day all winter so we know it's possible like what do we got to do and we are constantly coaching other people in what to do but we accept coaching as well we bumped into a woman last winter she had studded tires on the bike we model we have with these obscure tire size so we had to ask her hey how do you do this what we're you know what size oh this version of the bike you have to take the fender off if you want studded tires this the version you have you don't need to and it's those types of things and then when you're doing it you're given thumbs ups you know you're you're cheering people on you're given those smiles but we're all smiling at each other when we do it there are smiles shared and that's the part of what makes it fun.

SPEAKER_04:

Amanda, anything to add to that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah I just want to add to the real commitment uh all we're asking is that you commit to doing short-term trips so that's going to the grocery store just commit to biking to the grocery store if you can make that one change I know everyone says I have to I have to drive my car to work everybody says it so okay you know but just bike to the grocery store just bike your kids to school that those two things if you can commit to that right and I know a lot of parents drop their kids off before they you know drive to work but really ask yourself do I need to drive do I absolutely need to drive and define for yourself like what's what's the distance right do I need to do I need to drive right now and if you can walk or bike walk and bike that's a great note to end on Amanda Ladner my daughter-in-law Brendan my son uh thank you so much for uh sharing your insights and uh I'm sure you're somehow available uh we can certainly make your contacts available through the BC Cycling Coalition if anybody wants to talk to you and uh we want to uh encourage anybody listening to join the BC Cycling Coalition so we can keep doing podcasts like this and help uh advance more quickly a safe cycling future for BC thanks for listening to Bic6 and supporting safe cycling in BC please subscribe so you don't miss an episode BC Cycling Coalition relies on your support please consider becoming a member and adding your voice to the call for safer and more accessible cycling in BC special thanks to our sponsors BC Hydro Richard Fuel ICBC Moto and the bicycle visit us at BCcycling.ca