How a First Nation Saved a Rail Trail—And Changed the Region

We talk with Phil McIntyre-Paul, a key organizer behind the Splatsin to Sicamous Corridor—a 50-km rail trail and active transportation greenway running parallel to Highway 97A between Sicamous and Armstrong in the North Okanagan.

You'll hear how CP Rail's 2009 abandonment kicked off a long, messy acquisition process, why political turnover nearly derailed the project, and how Splatsin leadership changed everything by securing critical sections and bringing regional districts and municipalities into a shared model for acquiring, building, and managing the corridor.

We also zoom out to the larger Sicamous to Osoyoos vision—and how this rail trail connects with the Okanagan Rail Trail, the Kettle Valley Rail corridor, and the Trans Canada Trail to form a destination cycling network with real economic and active transportation impact for rural BC.

Transcript

Welcome And Trail Overview

Peter Ladner 0:04

Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner, Chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show.

Peter Ladner 0:27

Today we're going to look at a 50-kilometer rail trail from Sycamuse to Armstrong in the North Okanagan, and it's nearing completion after 17 years of work by many, many people. It's the Splatchine to Sequic Corridor, also known as the Shoeswap North Okanagan Rail Trail, sometimes referred to as Snort. It runs parallel to the Highway 97A north of Vernon to Highway 1 at Sycamous, and it's actually part of a grand 250-kilometer vision to connect Sycamus all the way to Asoyez near the U.S. border. These projects aren't easy. So we've invited someone to tell us about the challenges, how they've been overcome, and what other regions can learn from this project. And how this is only the beginning.

Meet The Trail Builder

Peter Ladner 1:27

I've given you one title, but I know you were formerly the executive director of the ShoeSwap Trail Alliance. Tell me something more about yourself. How did you get into this?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 1:35

My background is actually in community development, and so I kind of come to this innocently enough. Uh community development planning design, that's part of my jam, I guess. And uh and I've always been a uh a a trail user cyclist. Um I I love communities and cities and and villages that let you walk and physically move around the place. So that's always been part of who I am. So uh w when we moved to the Shu Schwab 30 years ago plus, um uh this incredible rural magical place of of water and mountains and hills and trees and obviously places to walk. That I immediately got immersed in that and involved with leadership that was trying to rethink how that looked.

First Ride On The New Section

Phil McIntyre-Paul 2:23

Tell me about your latest bike ride. It was two weekends ago um in Sycamoose. I got onto what is currently an interim ferry being run by a group of community leaders in Sycamoose who just were figuring out how to get people onto a rail trail that we've just built. And uh, but there's still highway construction that's blocking access. So they created a ferry launch. I got on the ferry launch with my family. Um, it was a beautiful, sunny uh Sunday afternoon. And uh we cycled south of Sycamoose along Mara Lake on the west side on the abandoned rail corridor that is now the splatching to Sequnik Shoeshwap North Okanagan Rail Trail. And it's the first uh extensive part of the project that opened last year, 14.8 almost 15 kilometers, um, to the end of the lake and back. And it was I think it was downhill both directions. It was it was flat and it was spectacular, and it was very, very gratifying to uh actually cycle something that so many people have been working so hard to make reality.

Peter Ladner 3:25

So it sounds intriguing. Makes me want to go there. Good. Uh but we've talked about uh the difficulties of opening this. You you have to take there's a sort of a custom ferry that has to get people at this point to the start of the of that section of the trail?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 3:42

So we've been working closely with the other rail and corridor projects south uh right down through the Okanagan. The Okanagan Rail Trail between Vernon and Kelowna, the team of folks who've been work who worked on that project. Uh Brad Clement, one of the players, I remember him saying, as we were kind of pushing to get our piece moving, uh I remember him saying something to the effect of just be ready, because you will you you you you you have no idea of the the things that are about to come pop up that you've never thought of that will have to be overcome and figured out and solved in order to make this happen. And we could list all the things we know of uh to date on multiple projects, but there's going to be something you never thought of. And this is one of them.

Bridge Construction Sparks A Bike Ferry

Phil McIntyre-Paul 4:27

Um the kilometer zero of this section of the rail trail is at the Trans Canada Highway. And so it it's the it's a spur off of the main CP rail line that ran south through the Okanagan. Um CP Rail abandoned it in 2009, and we've been working since then uh collectively to turn it into a rail trail. In the midst of that, the Ministry of Transportation in BC decides to rebuild Broom Bridge, which is the highway bridge at Sycamous. And so that's been a multi-year project. Now, right at the moment that we finally get this trail built and opened, and so the access to kilometer zero is blocked off from this bridge construction. And so we get a section of trail built. Everyone who lives in Sycamoose is now looking across the channel, because there's a channel from between them and the rail trail, and they see a trail that they can't get to. And so conversations happen. How do we get onto this thing? And there's kind of an awkward system of getting shuttled back and forth with road safety crews when the bridge is, you know, every hour on the hour. And uh but uh Sycamuse is known for houseboats, and so a group of folks pull together, they pull in um one of the houseboat companies, twin anchors, they pull in other businesses and go, look, what if we repurposed a houseboat pontoon for uh passengers and bicycles? It's about two minutes across the uh across the bridge. So they're they so it's costing about $200,000 of operational funds. They fundraised for it, uh, got support from, you know, there's some economic development opportunity funding. They uh uh businesses, corporate businesses have uh donated, um folks get on the ferry and they make they do it by donation. They've said this is a free ferry. They pulled it off. Honestly, it's one of those great examples of community gumption in rural in rural BC where folks are going, we just it it for me it was uh what we've known, which is the reason people don't walk and bicycle is because it's not possible and unsafe. But as soon as it's possible, people desperately want to. And we just need to stop pretending otherwise. So all of a sudden, this beautiful legacy Greenway Act of Transportation Corridor is visible to people, and to get to it, there's a two-minute water crossing, and they figured out a way to make it happen. So everyone's rallying together, they've hired a captain, they've got all their transport canada certification to stay within the affordable margins. Only 11 people can get on at a time. They've got it all set up with bike and the racks and uh awning. It's great. So you go to the go to the rail trail website or link through to the ferry website. Um, it's in the bulletin on the website. And uh they've they're currently now, uh May they started running every day. So they're running uh through May it's nine to five, and then starting in June, they'll be running from eight till six, right through the summer, every day, and then uh through September.

Peter Ladner 7:33

Sounds

What Opens Next And When

Peter Ladner 7:34

fantastic. Talk about multimodal. Yeah. So this is a this particular section of the track is 50 kilometers, but there are only certain sections of it that are open now. What's the the big picture? When are you expecting it all to be open and how much construction is going on right now?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 7:51

That question of the hour. So we just did uh we just did a pop-up stand this past weekend at a street festival in Salmon Arm. Holy smokes, there's two of us at the booth, and the question we answered more times was that question, Peter. So it eminently, um possibly even tomorrow. We're working with the rail trail ownership partnership group, which is splat chain, together with the two regional districts, Columbia Shushuap Regional District and the Regional District of North Okanagan. So it's this collaborative of governments, orders of government. They're making it work. And so there, the the engineer and uh contractor, which is Splat Chain Development Corporation's Uke Minaluku team, have just substantially completed another, I think I want to say about a 20 kilometer plus section, and they're ready to sign off on substantial completion, turn it back to the owners, and so and then it will be officially open. And so that will take it then from the end of Marrow Lake, which I identified earlier, to Enderby. So there's Grinrod, Enderby, two more uh communities on the corridor. And then there's a final, I think about six kilometers south of Enderby. Uh it will stop at a road called Stepney Crossroad in the township of Smalcheen. And then we have an overpass to build on it on another part of Highway 97. So that's another part of the story. But effectively, the first 42.6 kilometers will be fully constructed by this fall uh this year. But the section through to Grinrod and then Enderby is ready to open any moment. So it's either this week or next week. Keep watching the website, check the update boltons. We've got the draft news releases ready so that when Splatchin and the regional districts are ready to trigger it, we can send it out. So that's that's how hot that question is right now. People are I I don't I don't want to say losing their minds excited, but uh it's not just the that people are excited, it's who's excited. Um, and you know, in the marketing world, they they they they warn you not to say everyone, you know, target your market, get specific. This is everyone. Like this is families with little kids pushing run bikes, to grandparents and folks going, I've never bicycled before, but I heard I could rent an e-bike, so maybe I'll give that a go to people wanting to walk their, you know, go for a walk. This is everyone. So splatchin

The Land Acquisition And Early Politics

Phil McIntyre-Paul 10:41

leadership have been absolutely central and key to the whole project. Um, when CP announced it was abandoning the rail corridor in 2009, um, it triggers a whole series of required by law uh process, which I'm sure you're familiar with talking to any rail trail project. And uh so that process had triggered it, also triggered a whole group of leadership throughout the community starting to group and say, okay, we've got to be ready. Look, local governments, you you're gonna have a moment here where you've got 90 days to uh you'll be asked if you want to acquire this rail corridor. The answer needs to be yes.

Peter Ladner 11:17

So your first your first advocate would be the local government?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 11:20

Yeah, so it would be well, so splatching would be the First Nations would be part of that, right? So it goes initially it goes to um anyone who wants to purchase, who wants to bid and purchase the rail corridor to keep it running. So if you're if you have a viable um uh bid to to keep the the railway going, then that's the first round. And I think it's a like it's in these kind of 90-day chunks, right? There's a period of time, and then it moves to uh it moves to First Nations and and uh municipal regional governments have a period, and then it goes to fee simple, anyone who wants to start purchasing it, and then they start breaking it up. So it went through those first steps. There were some sort of attempts to try and keep it running. Um and those were interesting because we were uh the group of us who were going, this, if if anything, there needs to this, we need to be on this as far as a greenway opportunity. And there were conversations about rails with trails at one point. So all sorts of uh moves and manifestations. Um MLA George Abbott at the time pulled leadership together, um, supported those of us who are advocating from behind the scenes, and and got everyone in the room and basically said, look, you gotta work together, but if you do, the province will probably step in and support this. This is an opportunity. So even you know, right at the get-go, there was uh there was some significant political leadership. It still wasn't easy uh because you're getting all these local, like it's it's not just two regional districts and uh and splat gene. It's um each of those represents multiple electoral directors and municipalities, and each of those represent councils. So in the end, you've got like 20, 30 plus politicians at at play. And and and at a time when the question, we were still working hard uh at helping people understand that the question wasn't, is this a good idea? But how do we make this happen? Because it needs to. We were still in that in a transition period in that, and we've been working hard for a bunch of years to help people understand and see the research and see what was happening in other communities and getting results. But we were still teetering on that question. We're now in a place where the question on everyone's lips is how do we get how do we make these happen? How do we get them done? Which is a very different place. But at the time, that was the situation we were in. It was kind of a messy start. There was kind of different conversations, and then at one point um the district of Sycamus said, We've got this, we're gonna try and get our bit um because the northern end is within the Columbia Shoeshrup Regional District. We'll try and purchase that, and then RD and O said, Well, we'll split it up and we'll try and purchase our piece, and if we can, we'll stitch it together and talk about it. And there was some political changes and uh and an election, and people changed their minds, and they had an opportunity to purchase it in bits and said no, and we watched the whole thing collapse in front of us. Meanwhile, Splatchene leadership are behind the scenes. They've gone directly to the federal government and basically I suspect had the conversation, the obvious one, which was we never actually gave this away in the first place. You need to give it back. If it was developed as a rail corridor that people could walk and ride, it would give us a chance to educate people and potentially give us a chance to build relationships with the non-Indigenous communities and get some working, better working uh relationships happening. So splatching leadership was already thinking this is a tool, a strategy. And then they also recognized from looking at the research that there was economic benefit for their community as well. It's right through their main area, all along the water, uh, waterways, the shoreline, which is all really critically culturally significant and environmentally significant.

Peter Ladner 15:09

Phil,

Splatsin Leadership Changes The Game

Peter Ladner 15:10

you've described widespread support for this, and I can tell by the excitement in your voice that there uh people have perhaps caught your excitement and bought in. But at some point this project was described as an emerging leader in regional development. What does that mean?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 15:25

Aaron Powell So taking that sort of splatching trajectory, um, they decided uh that the the more pragmatic move, if they wanted to see this happen now and not become a kind of a legal battle battle that could take 20, 30 years, that a better option would be to negotiate sale of two of the sections which were within IR land, which they uh held under under the federal INAC laws, right? So the two uh splatching reserves. So they they managed to negotiate a purchase fee simple of the two sections. There's like about two and three kilometer or one kilometer section, even, and then a like a three or four kilometer section. And essentially what they did is they got the bookends and they purchased it through their development corporation again strategically and super smart, so that it would not then just get absorbed into the reserve land, which technically is still actually owned by the federal government. They said, uh-uh, we're owning this. This is not gonna be part of uh, you know, we're not gonna push this into a Thailand rights negotiation, we're gonna own it. Once they did that, they called the Shishwap Trail Alliance, um, because they'd been working with me already to kind of sort of get support for this, and said, okay, can you help us pull the regional governments into the room? Because we want to see who's ready to work with us to try and acquire the rest of the corridor. So it was a so from a regional development point of view, what is notable about this is it's not one of those situations where you know we get buy-in from a few of the local non-Indigenous governments and then they figure it convince everyone else, and everyone's kind of all excited, and then they go, we should probably talk to the local First Nations communities. Totally the other way around. Uh the municipal and regional governments were floundering and you know, not do not really pulling it off and saying no and not really convinced. Um uh Kupke and Tukumipla, or chief and counsel um uh uh uh with the splatching uh community, had already got the community support and they had already got these bookends, got everyone in the room and said, Look, we have control of these two ends on both ends of the corridor. So and they literally were up on the top end and the sort of middle to bottom end. They said, are we planning to figure out how to acquire the whole rest of this and turn it into a greenway and and maintain it so that we can do these things and who's with us? And at that point, the conversation suddenly completely changes because now all of a sudden it's the First Nation driving the driving the bus. And they it was kind of like I I describe it as they literally had the train fueled and ready to go with the door open and said, if you're interested, get on. We're starting now. And so then they followed up with uh meetings with mayors and uh regional chairs, and uh from there a whole process. They they mandated their CAOs to work with the splatching title and rights um director who had already negotiated the purchase of their little pieces, and they made they came up with an agreement together and said, we will work together, we will commit to work together to acquire this and then manage uh basically uh acquire it, develop it, and manage it together and do whatever it takes to do that. So they've gone through a whole series of steps. They now have a reciprocal easements on the whole corridor so that all the different bits, the you know, the purchasing and stuff was complex, and but they did it.

Funding Reality And The Highway Overpass

Phil McIntyre-Paul 19:06

Uh, there's two parts to that question. One is the acquisition of the rail corridor. And um the acquisition, I think it was 6.2 million to buy the land. That was the purchase uh step. And then there was the second part, which is develop the create the development plan. And we we estimated we needed about um just shy of a million for that, like about 800,000, 850,000. We're able to apply for grants for all of that. And so we got grant funding for that. Uh again, the partnership now is splatchin, Arduino, CSUD, supported by the Trail Lines and a number of other regional partners. So we're all able to kind of work and support them. And uh, and so that funding came through provincial funding and uh a little bit of uh local economic opportunity funding that uh uh the municipality, the regional district and district of Sick News have. And then that then brought it to the development stage, which kind by that point um we're now into the last eight years, right? The the what's happened over since 2017. So they purchased it into, they got they finalized the purchase of the rest of the corridor in 2017, so uh end of 2017, November. And then so 2018 is when everyone regrouped and they created a governance advisory committee, a technical committee. Uh the Trailliance has been uh uh sort of linked into that as a sort of technical supporting partner, and they that's they pulled me in again to help with that. And part of our role has been helping the splatchain and the regional governments raise the funds for that. And that's all been grant funding. So it's been federal provincial grants, um, again, local economic opportunity funding, and some dedicated rail trail funding for repairs that has come from other sources. So uh so that um to date, the sort of development part uh has been 16, just over 16 million. I think 15.5 million. Um uh but there's been, you know, plus the development planning part so for construction. They need $7.5 million to finish the overpass. So we're now down to the 42.6 kilometers up to uh Stepney Crossroad will be finished this year thanks to uh a $12.5 million grant from the Federal Infrastructure Active Transportation Program four years ago. And the deadline for finishing that was extended once, twice, and then this is it, gotta be done this fall, and it will be. And then there's a 6.5-kilometer gap to get into Armstrong, and that requires an overpass of Highway 97. And so that's where there's a there's an expense which additional funding is needed. And an application was put in again to the Federal Infrastructure AT program last year, a year ago, just over a year ago, for that funding. There have with lots of positive. Support. Splatchine is applying for that for that funding. So they're leading, taking the lead, which is important. But of course, then some other things happened. Like we suddenly had political turmoil, an election, a whole new prime minister, whole new set of agendas. We're building Canada strong and the agenda has shifted to other things. So we're still waiting to hear where that grant application is. If if that was successful, and we're we're really reaching out to the provincial leadership and the federal leadership to say, please make it, because we this this this trail gets finished completely connected next year, right? If you know if they if that funding was announced, they could start building that overpass and get it done next year by 2028, effectively.

Peter Ladner 22:46

So it would be well this is one of many projects around Canada that are awaiting approval of the release of the $500 million that GT funding promised. And the minister in charge, of course, is Gregor Robertson, who's known in our circles to be some somewhat of a cyclist. So maybe, who knows, we can get this thing going. Um Phil, could you talk a little bit about how this fits into this bigger picture? What

Connecting Sycamus To Osoyoos

Peter Ladner 23:11

is this uh uh Sycamus to a Soyuz project all about? And without getting into all the details, roughly how how close is that to completion?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 23:23

It's so it's interesting. Again, it's one of those ones where 10 years ago it was like, yeah, this is this is doable. We need to just keep pushing, and and while we're working on our separate projects, we need to keep linked and connected. And we're now at a point where it's not it's not this is doable, we need to do this. We're at a uh uh then there's actively as we speak reaches out to provincial ministers, uh federal ministries uh to say uh help us get this northern section finished because it's it's ready to finish now, it's a quick win, and then we have a few gaps to complete, and we've got we've got a viable connection happening. So the Okanagan Rail Trail, um, Friends of the Okanagan Rail Trail, uh Regional District of North Okanagan, Lake Country Regional District, and the city of Kelowna, they all partnered. Eventually they pulled in Okanagan Band as well, and they're just getting a section through the Okanagan band uh lands finished now. That section got done a few years ago, um, and that significantly moved everything forward for us. And so we've all been working together. What was interesting was with the Okanagan Rail Trail in ours, we've been jointly researching together, sharing information, and then also making sure that every time we we apply for funding, talk to provincial ministers and leadership, we're always referencing what each other is doing. Meanwhile, there's the KVR, the Kettle Valley Rail uh system.

Peter Ladner 24:48

And is this route dependent on some of those sections of the KVR that were washed out and don't have the funding to repair?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 24:55

Well, it's interesting. It's it's it it all connects, right? So it impacts, it's not dependent on it, because the route to you know the that section towards Princeton kind of is now running east-west, whereas this is running north-south, but it connects. It connects into the KVR, right? So suddenly the whole thing connects. The Trans Canada Trail has now, uh their society has now has has reached out to the Okanagan Rail Trail and to the this this section up here, the Shushwap uh North Okanagan section, so the splat gene section, and said we'll register you in as a connector, a side connector. You'll we're this this totally makes sense. It all connects. Let's get you guys connected as part of the Trans-Canada Trail System. Um, so it it is important, and uh and and maintaining that connection for the for the you know the bigger puzzle of this is important, particularly when you start to see what happens when you start to compare it to what what we know from experience and research now in terms of these networked legacy destination active transportation corridors, which double as uh you know destination tourism draws and also recreational corridors. Those multiple values are I mean, there's an economic uh impact, there's an impact in terms of getting people out of cars and onto wheels and pedaling, you know, people-powered wheels. And uh so I, you know, personally I think it's all important and it's all connected. And it's interesting because the players in our area are all supporting each other and networked and working together. You've got Thompson Okanagan Tourism Association stepping in saying, wait a second, we this is this is a priority for us. We will work with all of these different projects and partners and with the provincial government to see how we can help support making all these connections happen. Not just one, not choosing one or the other, because they've recognized that it's the it's the it's the sum, it's the greater sum of the all the parts, not the individual parts themselves. It's funny, it's almost like because you know this from active transportation, uh it's a one-foot gap, is all it takes to render an entire corridor completely useless. Like I'm it's it kills me to see the millions of dollars wasted for not quite completed projects, right? Like it's don't do that. It's not it's a waste of money. And then on this bigger, this kind of meta-level, when you start to stitch them together at a destination level, same thing applies. Um uh yeah, road enthusiasts, like we've got we've got temporary interim cycle routes on backcountry roads, which cyclists are using. And uh, and so those will work for enthusiasts, right? Cycle touring enthusiasts who don't mind going onto roads. But ultimately for this to work, we need those stitched together. So enter Ribbons of Green Trail Society out of Vernon, who have done amazing work with the Active Transportation Network in the Vernon Greater area. So they stepped in. Uh, they've been a champion of all these projects. They said, we get it. You guys are working hard on building this. Um, the the Friends of the Okanagan Rail Trail and all the partners there have just, you know, they're still finishing up that section. We will start working with the local municipalities, governments, First Nations, and the province to figure out the gap between Armstrong and Vernon, which is 25 kilometers. So now all of a sudden, when we look at the map and start to see what's built and what will be built by the end of this year, it's gone from a map between Secumus and the Soyuz that had lots of black gaps and then little orange things, and then you could see how it might work, to suddenly a map that I would say almost 80% is orange complete or near complete. And then the gaps are small pieces, like 25 kilometers, which aren't, I mean, that's a lot of work locally. But when you look at the corridor, it's like, come on. This is now a political mandate decision away from getting done. And so suddenly the conversation is getting pushed back up to the political level, going, you want a nation building strong uh um project that's a super quick win? This could get done in a couple of years, to be quite honest, or in a few years. And it's going, yeah, it's got complex, you've you've got a retrofit, poorly designed, non-active transportation highway corridors, which you could have done differently, but hey, we're learning. But if we do that in a few sections, we allow separated parallel pathways within some road corridors that we've already established. This thing gets connected and it becomes now a thing that I remember when we were doing the research um on this like 25 years ago to kind of go, what makes a destination trail significant opposed to uh local recreational trails and active transportation uh greenways? And one of the things that showed up was um trail systems that you couldn't do all in one visit, but you had to come and do again, you know, come back and and visit again to do the next bit. Um suddenly something happened that was different. And you could see France was doing it, you could see Germany was doing it. Uh my goodness, Croatia's doing it. Like um Scotland was doing the Seven Stains thing where you could collect these sort of high roots, and folks would come back year after year and do a different piece. So suddenly it wasn't one visit, it was five visits. So so as soon as there's a corridor which is bigger than you can do in the three to five days that you've got, it has a much bigger place in our imaginations and arguably at the most basic level, really compellingly convinces people to park their car and get on their feet and on bicycles.

Peter Ladner 30:38

To what

Everyday Transportation And Rural Safety

Peter Ladner 30:39

extent are these trails, let's just talk about your 50-kilometer one that we started with, the Sycamused Armstrong one. To what extent would that serve day-to-day needs? Is it all outsiders or just recreation or tourism, or are people going to work or to shop or whatever the else they do along that route?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 30:56

Yeah, that's a great question. And it's an interesting question as well for us in a rural context, because our numbers aren't compelling, right? Like we can't say, well, we, you know, if we create this and it, yeah, it's got recreational value, but there's gonna, you know, there's a population of a half a million or three million or whatever. Uh Kelowna definitely, uh, you know, and then Lake Country has quite condensed population. Vernon's a fairly large center. So the Vernon to Kelowna segment, each of those um uh uh sections have have provided immediate active transportation impact. So for us in a rural uh area, we have to kind of advocate on the at least in my mind personally, uh, on the level of uh how many dead people is the right number before we say it's important enough, right? That's kind of how we end up working. And uh the most compelling part of that conversation has been with the local um sequemic uh communities. We're working on another major rail trail style corridor uh uh west of Salmon Arm with uh Adams Lake and Nisconleth and uh Squilax called the West Bay Connector, because people have just they're now the past 50 people killed on the railway and the highway trying to get to basic amenities. That corridor will be a legacy destination tourism draw once it gets created. But ultimately the most important part is that people are getting killed trying to walk from their community into uh the main town center where all the things are that they need. But we're small. So we're talking communities of a few hundred people and you know, salmon arms growing, but it's 19,000. So the numbers don't trigger the same as multiple millions in in condensed airs. But the question at the meeting table has now got to the point of basically saying, so so please tell us we're we're now past 50 people from the Sconleth and Adams Lake community who have been killed on the railway or the or the highway trying to get back and forth. Who which number what like is it 60? Is it 100? Like how many people do we need to kill before that? Like it's I mean, it's been named. It's it's basically racist design and it's kind of functioning. So the the and but you know, the reality is more in the last 10, 15 years, that clearly is a concern for everyone, from CP Rail to Ministry of Transport, and everyone is now wanting to see that fixed. So these connections do serve as an active transportation network, and we're seeing it. So Sycamous, um uh it's not so much a commuter to work, except for people who live on the west side of the corridor are now able to ride and andor walk and take this little ferry and go in to work in Sycamoose. In Enderby, we did a pilot section. So we just did two kilometers. So three years ago, we managed four years. We got enough funding, um, and it was partly because thanks to the pandemic and the funding that was there, um, that was available, to do a pilot so people could at least taste and test and see what this was like. And tellingly, what happened was the local community of obviously became the number one user. But it wasn't just a few people, it was regular every day. And you had kids using it to get to schools, you had people using it to create a loop to walk their dogs and walk their, you know, their kids and get out, you had people using it to walk into town and back. So so we've been making the argument that yes, destination trail, but it serves multiple purposes. And uh certain sections are even or have heightened uh value. The other piece in in Enderby is this Black Chene community, uh sort of their sort of one of their main uh residential areas is right is is partnered with Enderby. And they've had the same request, the Ministry of Transport. It's like can we get some pathways so that we don't have to walk on the highway or in the street, right? Because usually the streets don't have the pathways. So this this creates another option that people are using. So it's a both end, and uh that's been a key part of the argument.

Peter Ladner 34:51

One

Motorized Use And Managing Conflicts

Peter Ladner 34:52

of the issues with the Trans Canada Trail, I know, is non-motorized or motorized users want to get on these trails. Have you had an issue with that, with keeping it non-motorized?

Phil McIntyre-Paul 35:02

Early on, there was uh there was uh conversation. Folks said, wow, wouldn't that be fun to snowmobile it if there's snow? Uh it's pretty inconsistent snow. So um when there is snow, it makes a great ski route, cross-country ski route. So that's what's really taken off. Um there were there were some folks saying, yeah, let's ATV it. Um I'd been involved in in the you know some of the conversations and consultations along the the Kettle Valley Railway, and there's been quite a lot of controversy there between motorized and non-motorized use. And so I'd had a chance to spend quite a bit of time with the motorized user groups and and and get a better idea of you know what the real, you know, like from uh functionally what you know what the concern was. And it was interesting, uh consistently um folks would identify and they say these are access routes to other places that we like to go, particularly the, you know, the the um the mining road and rail system punches up into interesting, you know, high alpine and elevation areas on already created roads. So so you could see how, oh, right, so the infrastructure is helping people get to another place that they want to get to. It's more of a kind of a community. We don't have that issue here. So there wasn't there wasn't a really compelling reason to to turn it into a, you know, to have that for that to become a more intense conversation. But there were, there were folks who raised that and said, well, what about? Because there's opportunities here you could get into you can get into some of the, you know, the forestry road areas. But there was enough momentum underway in the conversation. The Okanagan Rail Trail, the connection south, um, you know, for Kelowna and uh Lake Country and RDO, there was such significant active transportation benefits. And then that rail trail really took off. Um once they built that rail trail, um, kind of the the numbers using it in the first summer blew everyone's minds. And um, because you know, it was again, those of us who've been working in it were sort of quietly going, well, we told you so. But we didn't, you don't do that. It's it's more fun just seeing people go, What? I mean, all the politicians who uh many of them were like, I don't think we should waste the money on this. They looked like rock stars. They just they were heralded and uh and yeah, to their credit, because they did support it in the end. And so just we're talking hundreds of thousands of people showing up to use it so and to walk it and ride it on bicycles in such numbers that it it physically you look at it and go, oh yeah, we couldn't possibly fit other uses in this, it would displace. The other piece for us, which has been super key on this whole motorized, non-motorized conversation, is that when we started the Trail Alliance and then the what's now morphed into what we call the regional trails roundtable 25 years ago, there was a lot of controversy happening down on the KVR uh between motorized and non-motorized user groups. And we looked at it and and sort of scratched a bit to see what's going on and uh met with motorized leadership here in the shoe shop, and we made a conscious choice together to say what we would we there's another way to do this. We could just commit to working together and not import the problem before it's a problem. That's let's take a different approach. We we don't really have trails that are conflicting yet because we haven't created enough. And then there's some and there are you know conflicts. There'd been some early wins where the Nordic society and the snowmobile club had kind of had some conversations and agreed to sort of keep out of each other's way and support each other. So it was kind of in the DNA a little bit. Um, the splatching leader or the sequencing leadership from all the bands were really helpful. They because they had been pushing at that table saying everyone has to work together. Round tables are the way we like to work. If we all work like that, we can figure this out. So we've had now a 20 plus year history of collaborating. Um, and that those relationships between all the user group has been really beneficial. And the and the round table that's now established, and there's a working group has really helped to do that. So as the rail trail was being developed and we were exploring that, we were having active conversations with everyone about you know why yes and why no, and why this needs to be a greenway and why it needs to be for non-motorized use. So is it, you know, is does everyone support it? Probably not, but is it generally widely accepted as that? Yeah, absolutely. So um there a little the harder one was really with horses, our equestrian community. There's uh it goes through agricultural areas where there's people with horses and and one little section where there's a number of folks who have horses and they love place to in the spring leg the horse get the horses out and leg them up and down the corridor. But because of the numbers that we were seeing in the Okanagan Rail Trail, and the numbers anticipated on this, um the you know, Splatchin and the regional district ownership group were able to look at it and go, let's not let's not say yes and then have to say no. Let's start with we can see the trend. And it's it needs to be a uh a pedestrian bicycle corridor at this point. Um, maybe there's room for a bridal path off the main trail later in this section. Let's monitor it and work together. Um, and then the other thing they had us do, actually, they had me do this through the trail lines was have us go and interview. We interviewed about 30 other Greenway rail trail and or greenway corridors like this in BC, but also in the states and and other parts of the country. And consistently bicycle equestrian uh and pedestrian conflict was was if it wasn't done well, it wasn't, it was, it was, it came up as the the most consistent point of conflict. So yeah. Phil, we

Wrap Up And How To Support

Phil McIntyre-Paul 40:52

have to we have to wrap this up. But I need to go on. I have many more things to share, Peter.

Peter Ladner 40:57

Uh you obviously do, and we haven't even talked about your ancillary sort of smaller, uh, lower, lower level routes that are uh all over the place in your region that you're working on and the bigger trail tables and so on. Good for you. For you obviously got a knack for bringing people together, as I've no doubt many other people that you've brought together and worked with. And uh I would commend your region on overcoming these many, many hurdles by bringing people together and having measured, respectful conversations, and by the way, getting the money and the political support. And I love that people showing up make the politicians feel and look good, and that's really key to the whole thing in many ways. So, congratulations on what you've done. I really want to get up and get on that ferry and uh try this route, and uh and I wish you so much good luck in connecting it all together and the the network down to Soyuz and with the KBR would be so fantastic. So go for it. You have our blessing, and uh hope we can get your message out somewhat through this podcast.

Phil McIntyre-Paul 42:06

Awesome. I really appreciate the time, Peter, and the and of course all the work you guys do. I mean, it's the BC Cycling uh coalition's been a major, major uh support and advocate uh all along, and we use your information to help kind of bolster up what we're putting in front of folks. So team effort though, and uh as you said, it's relationship. It's all about relationships. The trails are the aftermark of what that relationship in the land and with each other looks like. Fantastic. Thanks, Phil.

Peter Ladner 42:40

You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating on whatever platform you use. You can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peter.ladner at bccycling.ca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccycling.ca, yeah.