Pedro & Claudia: Part 1 of 3: Fear and Frustration when Parenting your Teen

Sometimes parenting is so hard and exhausting, it doesn't feel worth it. In today’s session, Pedro and Claudia explain how much energy and effort they have spent trying to raise their 16 yr old teenage son Liam who has been diagnosed with Autism, ADHD and Generalized Anxiety Disorder.  While supportive, Pedro and Claudia are met with resistance at every turn, and have yet to see results from their parenting. Is that an assumption or is that really true?  In this episode, Leslie checks the facts, unpacks the fear and frustration, and addresses these issues with an upbeat and hopeful shift in perspective as well as practical strategies to try.

Time Stamps

4:35 What is your definition of being a good parent - getting the results from your child

5:09 Growing up with the culture of the “village” when raising a child and the support that comes with that

7:15 Feeling isolated when friends have neurotypical kids and you have a neurodivergent kid

8:45 Myths or limiting beliefs: We don’t want to burden other people with our problems

14:05 It’s more challenging dealing with a teen with diagnoses than with a toddler with diagnoses

16:00 Remember to see your child’s strengths in order to get a whole picture

16:55 Wanting your child to achieve their potential can be a great deal of pressure for both parents and teens 

21:00 Raising your child with Values creates a solid foundation

21:30 The frustration and fear of raising the teenager when you are getting the results you expect

28:58  Fear impacts your parenting mindset and perspective.  Where would you be without the expectations? Fear feeds frustration which feeds feeling like a failure

29:50 What behaviors are due to his diagnoses vs what’s developmental and age appropriate (see show notes for a handout)

31:00 Toddlers and teenagers have a lot in common.  Learning to individuate and differentiate from their parents.  This is when they practice saying NO to use their voice

32:25 The value of empathy that is expressed even after the situation 

33:08 Give your child the problem and let them solve it rather than telling your child what to do. Teach your child to find a synthesis when problem solving

38:30 The quality of being strong-willed and the behavior of getting the last word - relates to the child who has a single track mind

40:00 Save your Breath and listen twice as much as you talk

41:50 Turn the volume down on your passion for raising your son

42:55 Your parenting effort IS working. Have faith in the process. It takes patience

44:45 Finding your “Passion” or living to your “potential” are dirty words because they put pressure on you and your child

Resources:  

• Handout on Parenting Dilemmas from DBT
• Poem On Children by Kahlil Gibran

Leslie-ism: Save your breath when parenting, listen twice as much as you talk

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook and Instagram. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, 

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

 0:02  Claudia:  Did I spoil this kid to the point of no return? And then that's the fear. What if we are looking at a kid that really cannot function as a model adult out there?

0:21  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  When you have a teenager who is approaching adulthood, you can really begin to panic. How could this kid, who still argues with Mom and Dad about nearly everything, survive in the outside world? I've got to be honest with you, teenage years are a lot like toddler years; a time when you hear so many “no’s.” So chances are you're being a little too hard on both yourself and on your child. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting therapy podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in therapy sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster. 

This week, we meet Pedro and Claudia, who are afraid their 16-year-old ADHD and autistic son, Liam, won't do well in adulthood. They are exhausted. They are not getting the results they expect from their parenting efforts. So, their fear leads to frustration, which leads to feeling like a failure. This episode sounds like it's a lot about frustration, but it's really about worry. And so many parents come to therapy because they are worried about their child. 

There's this imaginary deadline on growing up, and that puts tremendous pressure on the family system, pressure that you have to turn your kid into a model citizen, or you have to make sure they are going out into the adult world with everything they need. I have yet to meet a kid who's done all their growing up when they turn 18, and that's not a bad thing. 

Okay, now, as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. So let's begin.

2:28  Leslie:  Hi, Claudia and hi, Pedro. How are you today?

2:32  Claudia:  Hi, Leslie. Good to see you.

2:34  Pedro:  Hi, Leslie. We're great, thank you. 

2:38  Leslie:  So, I would love to hear where things are, what you're here for, and a little background information. So I'm going to let you guys start.

2:48  Claudia:  Okay, so we appreciate the opportunity to be here with you. And we have a son named Liam. He is 16 right now, and we are going through the problems that I consider the normal teenager problems, plus the challenges that his diagnoses bring to us. We are kind of needing some guidance on how to be actually better parents to him so he can grow up to be a good citizen and really thrive in his life.

3:25  Leslie:  Okay, beautiful. I'm going to let you jump in as well, Pedro; but when you say, “better parents,” are you lousy parents?

3:35  Claudia:  I'd rather think I am not, but sometimes I feel like one.

3:40  Leslie:  Okay, well, that's an honest statement. Of course you're not a lousy parent, and sometimes we do feel like that. I think that's really honest, so I want to acknowledge that, and that's probably why you called, because it's not easy being a parent.

3:55  Pedro:  Yeah, we talked about the diagnosis of Liam and maybe covering that a bit. He's in the autism spectrum. He also has Tourette's and anxiety disorders. And I'm pretty sure that Claudia can say a few more, but I think those are the main ones. And I think that my journey as a father to him has been that I don't feel equipped with the tool set or the toolkit that a typical father-son relationship would need. And I see myself struggling in connecting with him. And that's why we say we don't feel like good parents at times, because as much as we put the effort out there and we try, we still don't get the results that maybe we would expect out of the interactions with Liam.

4:48  Leslie:  Okay, so, parenting is going into the unknown that produces a lot of anxiety. You have this child. How about growing up for both of you? Did you feel like you learned a lot from your parents, from your culture?

5:05  Claudia:  I think we are very family-oriented. Being from Brazil, you know, Italian families, and that village was very important for us. Growing up, we were always at Grandma's house having parties together; and here we are very much alone. It's only the three of us. So everything is on us. All the burden is on us. And I feel like Liam is missing that, and that would be something that would help us all. 

But reality is we don't have it, and we are not going to have it. So we have to learn for the first time, actually, how to do this without the family, because I think our references are big families where everybody's involved and everybody helps each other. But we don't have that here, so it is us, right? And that comes with challenges. 

6:11  Leslie:  Wow. Okay, so just to clarify, “here” is not in Brazil. 

6:16  Claudia:  “Here” is not in Brazil. “Here” is the Pacific Northwest. 

6:19  Leslie:  So, you have come to the Pacific Northwest, you've settled there. Was Liam born here in the United States, or born in Brazil? 

6:28  Claudia:  He was born here in the United States.

6:31  Leslie:  So, he doesn't know that village, the sense of a village that you grew up with? 

6:35  Claudia:  No, he does not. But he misses it. Somehow he misses it. He talks about the family all the time, and I think it's because we are still very connected with our families. He sees that. So he misses that. He has mentioned a couple of times that he wants to go to restaurants and have a lot of people sitting at the table. So, even though he doesn't know it, he misses it. He wants it, but it's not going to happen.

 7:10  Leslie:  So, where you are, you don't have relatives, and it feels rather…you didn't use the word—but correct me, if I'm wrong—isolating. You feel somewhat isolated.

 7:22  Claudia:  Yes, we do have friends that are like family, but the experience they have as parents is not the same one that we have, because they have neurotypical kids. And can I count on them in an emergency? Yes, but on the daily struggles, we cannot. And I mean, I don't even know if I would want to put that on other people, anyways—I feel like that's my problem to solve.

7:52  Leslie:  Okay, so you have a belief that your child and whatever problems you guys may be having is your problem to solve. There are people out there to help you, but you don't want to burden anyone. 

8:05  Claudia:  Yes, correct. 

8:06  Leslie:  Okay, that might be a myth that's getting in your way. It might be a value of yours. We'll differentiate that in a minute, unless you want to say anything else about that. I see you nodding your head, Pedro, is there something you want to say about that?

8:21  Pedro:  No. I agree with Claudia, and I think that I wanted to maybe bring it back a little bit to the family part that she was talking about. I think that's more true for her side of the family than my side of the family. But it's still, you know, there's still the family's there. There's a connection. And I do see that Liam does bring it up sometimes, like, “I want Grandpa and Grandma to come over.” And in fairness, my in-laws, they go above and beyond, to be present.

8:53  Leslie:  Oh, that's nice.

8:54  Pedro:  Yeah, and the…the…

9:00  Claudia:  It's okay…

….

9:06  Pedro:  Thank you.

9:07  Leslie:  Absolutely.

9:10  Pedro:  I think what I wanted to bring up is also the fact that even though it's a thing, Liam refuses to learn Portuguese. He refuses to find a deeper connection. And I think that's when I start to analyze this…I think it's part of, maybe the dynamic that he has, which is he just expects things to happen for him. And I think he's, you know, the word that I use, and I feel bad about it, I think, is just lazy. 

But I know it's more than that. It's not exactly that. And this is a pattern that I find in most things, most interactions. Like, “Let's go take the trash out together.” Like, no, it's not a thing. Let's go watch a movie. Or the fact that he can't wait five seconds for us to answer him a question. So the immediacy and the actually waiting for something, working towards something—I don't think that he has registered that. And so I made that connection, because I speak many languages, and it has opened worlds. And I tell him, you have this connection with his family, but you refuse to communicate with them or learn something, and also always been a part of the struggle. 

10:38  Leslie:  So now we're getting into understanding Liam, understanding your challenges. I'm so curious. And well, you may or may not know me, I'm ready to jump in, but I'm going to slow down a moment and ask you to give me…I mean, you just gave us a lot of information. This idea that it feels like he's lazy—it is judgmental word—but it describes something that we want to understand more. So I'm okay with that. You also say that he wants things to happen easily and quickly. And he wants things to happen, it doesn't sound like he works for those things. 

So let's understand that, but let's get some context. Let's get some history. He's 16 years old. I don't need 16 years worth of history, but in this moment, but definitely some background information as to what he was like when he was little. You have a lot of diagnoses for him. When did those arrive? When did that happen? That's a lot of questions. I'll give you a chance to talk.

11:28  Claudia:  I can answer that. I think it's easier since I was the person kind of bringing him to doctors and stuff like that. So, I noticed that he was not speaking as much as a toddler should by the time he was 17,18 months old. And luckily, our pediatrician was open to just say, “You know what? Take him to a speech pathologist. It doesn't hurt to just see what's going on.” And we did that. And right away he started speech therapy. 

And a couple of sessions in, I asked the therapist, “What do you think?” You know, what are the prognoses? How is this going? And she's like, “Oh, I think you guys should go to a birth-to-three center to do more diagnostics. And then by that time, I was already thinking that something else was going on. And then we started the process of getting an autism diagnosis, which came when he was 22 months old. So there was definitely, I'm not going to say a shock, because I could see things that didn't feel like, quote, normal. But it comes as a shock, no matter what, in the sense that, like, “Now what?” But the way that I approached that was doing everything I could to bring him to every single appointment I could, every single therapy I could. Because that was my way, I think, of coping with it, doing as much as I could, and then with time, the other diagnostic diagnosis came with ADD-ADHD and the anxiety at some point also showed up. 

But he has always been a strong-willed kid, and I always say that even if there were no diagnosis involved, he would still be a very strong-willed kid. So then, then you put those things together, and it's like, you know, a bomb. Then it's a time bomb, because something is going to happen. So it has always been somewhat hard. But as the time has passed, the expectations are more complex as you grow older. So the challenges have become more and more…the challenges are challenging. It has become harder, and then I felt a lot more equipped to deal with a little kid with diagnosis than with a teenager with diagnosis. So yeah, it has never been—again, quotes here—normal. But I feel that it has, it has gotten worse or harder or more difficult to handle. 

14:31  Leslie:  Could I also add a word? Has it just gotten more unfamiliar?

14:37  Claudia:  Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

14:41  Leslie:  So, a toddler is either speaking or they're not speaking—it's not that unfamiliar. But a child, who you ask them to do something, they do it. You might say, well, is that a teenage thing? It's really confusing. And being a teenager, the way you were, it's not that far out of our memory, even no matter how old you are, we remember our teenage years as being teenagers. So that feels familiar. We don't always remember being a toddler. So there's some distance with our toddlers, where we're like, “Oh, I'm the parent. I can help you.” But when you look at a teenager, you're like, “Oh, my God, you look like an adult. And now I don't know what to do with you.” And you're both nodding your heads. 

So, thanks for that background information. It sounds like your way of coping has been to help and help and do and do. Did you have—this word's going to be strong—did you have the illusion that you were going to fix him?

15:43  Claudia:  No, and I never wanted to fix him, because he is who he is. I love him for who he is. He's an amazing kid. He's loving. He's very social. He's so smart. So, no, I never wanted to fix him. But I wanted, I always wanted, to make sure that he was achieving his potential.

16:08  Leslie:  Okay. You want to say anything on that, Pedro?

16:14  Pedro:  Yeah, I agree with the sentiment. You know, he teaches us things, too. Or how, how kind he is, how accepting he is.

16:23  Claudia:  He has a huge heart. And he surprises me, daily, with the things that he says, the things he observes and, I mean, that's amazing. If anything, he has a better brain than I do for a lot of things, the way he sees things, the way he can do math, the way that he approaches things—it's different, and it's so valid. I don't want to change anything about him, but I also don't want him to not achieve his potential, because at some point these diagnoses are impeding him to reach his potential. 

But then again, how much is a teenager being a teenager, and how much is this from the diagnoses? And I have a hard time asking things of him if I'm not sure that he can do it. Like, 100% sure, because I don't want to put him in a position where he just cannot do it. And that goes for everybody. There's things we cannot do. And then I put him in a position where he cannot, and then he feels like he's not doing good, or he should be doing something else. 

17:46  Leslie:  So first of all, can I pause and back up a minute? Because you said he is big-hearted. You shared so many of his strengths and beauty, beautiful parts of himself that you just described. But big-hearted—I imagine the two of you are big-hearted. And am I wrong that Pedro, you just started to talk again and you got choked up again? 

18:12  Pedro:  Yeah. It is difficult. And I do have things to say, but I don't know. I think in the last few years, I just became a softy. So I guess I want to think that I'm much more in touch with my feelings, and then they're just kind of more out there.

18:30  Leslie:  Okay, so, I hope “softy” wasn't said in a judgmental way. Open hearted, warm…

18:35  Pedro:  Yeah, it was more of a shortcut [Laughter] to describe but I didn't mean to be judgmental in any way.

18:42  Leslie:  And some people would use that word against themselves in a negative way. So I just want to clarify that you have emotions…you're willing to share your emotions. And it sounds like Liam is very similar. As we look, we see similarities of our children in both of us. But that certainly sounds like…I can see that part of Liam. And I have not met him, but I can see that part of Liam right here in front of me.

19:12  Claudia:  Yeah, right. And it's very important for both of us that he grows up with values and with respect for others, and being able to help his community in every way he wants; and that is very important for both of us. And we want to make sure that that's important for him, and I think we are doing a good job on that.

19:41  Leslie:  Beautiful. 

[Music: Forest of Dreams by Olexy]

20:00  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  You've been listening to other parents on the podcast, and now I'd love to invite you to bring your questions and concerns directly to me. Join me, Wednesday, August 21 at 8 pm Eastern time for a free Q and A session for my podcast listeners, where you get to ask your burning parenting questions live on Zoom. Space is limited, so please register at ismychildamonster.com to receive the link. And if this time doesn't work for you, please also fill out the form and let us know what would work. That date, one more time is Wednesday, August 21 at 8 pm Eastern time. And don't forget: it's free. I can't wait to answer your questions. I hope to see you there.

21:06  Leslie:  I'm going to bring up two words. You've described his strengths, you've described some of the challenges. I want to get into some of the examples of what's really challenging. Like, do you have an example of something happened and you really questioned that behavior and what you need help with. 

But I am going to point out two words that you said in our intake phone call, which I was thinking about it: the frustration and fear. So, feeling the frustration probably with the teenager, dealing with the things you're dealing with, but also the fear of having the teenager. So if you want to speak to either one of those things, and then we'll get into some examples, that would be great.

21:56  Pedro:  Okay, maybe I can start. I think for me, the frustration is that, I think I alluded to this in the beginning, is: as much as we try to give him what we believe he's capable of and understanding the path that is difficult or different, as much as we try to get out of our own way and accommodate the space and try to meet him where he's at, we still don't get results. And it's not even that. We even learned that, “Oh, I don't get the results that I want.” Well, no, it's not about what I want, right? It's about getting a result, a reaction or something positive out of it. 

And I think that that's kind of the frustration, the amount of energy and trials that we kind of put into doing something for him or actually helping him through an experience. We don't seem to get things out of it, positive, I would say. We get the negativity, which is like, “Why are you pushing me on this?” Or, “I don't want to do this,” or, “This is stupid,” or, “You said this.” I mean, he's very quick to turn to us and tell us what we should be doing. So he's very judgmental about when we're trying to engage. That's where I think the frustration roots from for me.

23:24  Leslie:  Okay, and that's understandable. You're putting a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of money, a lot of everything into raising your son. And I am curious about the expectation that you're not getting…that response that you're looking for, and what you're getting, I'm going to say, you just don't know what to do with it. You just don’t know what to do when he talks back, or he tells you what you’re doing wrong. It’s like, “wait a minute, I don’t know what to do with this.

And a lot of parents often say to me, “Oh, my God, if I ever spoke to my parent like that, I'd be in trouble.” Or, “I would never say something like that. I did what I was supposed to do.” You're both nodding your head. Is that…

24:07  Pedro:  Oh, totally. 

24:09:  Claudia:  One hundred percent.

24:13  Pedro:  And like Claudia mentioned, I mean, big families coming from Brazil, it's, you know, the family has all those expectations, and you grew up, you know, as a Gen Xer, so you kind of, you do what you're told. You don't question your parents. And so, yeah, we definitely grew up with a different set of values and realities. But I think we are pretty aware of that, and I don't think that we try. And it's something that Claudia and I had talked about with Liam. We're not trying to raise him as me or as Claudia; we are trying to raise the person that Liam should be. We're trying to nurture that environment. 

And again, there lies the frustration and the difficulty. A lot of energy goes through this. We don't necessarily see the results that we want to see. And just to conclude that, at least I see myself maybe not feeling as engaged to keep doing this. You know, just kind of maybe stepping away from it. I'm not going to do this anymore, because the 10 times that I have tried, slightly different, I still get out of it frustrated; and the family’s maybe worse off.

25:30  Leslie:  Okay, now talk about fear.

25:33  Pedro:  From my perspective, I think that the fear is kind of that anxiety of what will his future look like. I think, as Claudia mentioned, we're getting into his teenage years. He needs to find his tribe. It's about kind of where you find your limits and your place in society, if you will. And I don't know if he's having progress there as you would come to expect. 

And we just had an, I don't know if this makes sense or not, but we went to have his ID done. The school suggested, “Hey, go get an ID. He's 16. He should have an ID.” And then the clerk that was giving us the idea and the forms was asking, “So, why doesn’t he, you know, he doesn't want to drive. Why doesn’t he want to drive?” I'm like, we don't have time to kind of go over this. And honestly, this is, again, we're trying to nurture…he doesn't want to do this for him right now. Honestly, I don't feel that he has the skills to do this yet. 

But, is this a challenge that we want to face? And I don't feel that as a family, we feel ready to do that yet. And he doesn't want to do it either, because, “Oh, Moms just driving me everywhere I need to drive. So it's like, “Why do I need to drive?” So it's all those things. 

26:56  Leslie:  I have a lot to say there. But, Claudia, do you want to say anything about the frustration or the fear? 

27:04   Claudia:  The frustration for me is, I think, the same as what Pedro mentioned, that we try, we try and we change a little bit. We go from mad to disappointed to sad to take things away, give more things, and we end up getting the same result. So at what point do we say, “Oh, my God, this is not going to work.” I don't know what I'm doing here. And that's why, I think I said that in the beginning, that I feel sometimes like a bad parent because I keep trying, trying, trying, and I'm out of ideas and things are still happening. 

Also what comes to mind is maybe we did so much for him that we kind of spoiled him, and maybe I did so much because I feel like I compensate by giving and doing to make his life easier. Did I spoil this kid to the point of no return? And then that's the fear, what if we are past any point of salvation here? But also my fear is, not necessarily a fear, but what if we are looking at a kid that really cannot function as a model adult out there? Like, maybe we have to start thinking about what is reality for him. And maybe the reality is not what we think or what we want it to be. But that's fine, too for me. Again, I just want to make sure that whatever we are doing, it's to achieve what he can achieve, considering the limitations that he has.

28:55  Leslie:  Okay, all right. So, my head is spinning because there's a lot of directions I want to go in. I want to start with: when parents feel fear and they feel like they're not good enough, that starts to feed your perspective, and that starts to create this mental filter of how you see your child. “I'm not good enough. What if he doesn't succeed? He won't do anything we ask him to do. How is he going to function as a grown up?” All of this starts to feed each other. 

So the fear feeds the frustration…try and say that three times. You're nodding your head. But that's very, very important. It also feeds a sense of failure. You're not good enough, you're not doing it right. And I want to sort of pull the curtain back, and I want to say, “Where would we be without those expectations?” What if we just put your feet to the ground, take a breath and say, let's look at the different parts of who he is. He's a teenager. He's got a neurodivergent brain, so he is going to look different than maybe a neurotypical child, and maybe that's what you're comparing him to. 

We need to take these threads, the thread of being a teenager. I don't think teenagers look good, by the way. [Laughter] I mean, they're amazing creatures. They're amazing human beings, and they're very cool, but we better not look at them and think this is what they're going to look like. They're going through a transitional period, which is beautiful, but we need to remember that. And I want to help you, because I'm a little skeptical that I don't think you're remembering that this is a period of time where he is going to say, “No.” 

Here's how I can compare it. And I don't know if you had this; again, it would be more of a neurotypical experience. So if you did not have this with Liam and understanding that he's your only child. That's important to understand. But did you have the years when he was a toddler where he was saying “No, no, no…?”

31:07  Claudia:  One hundred percent, we had that, yes. And I feel like he's still there. He still says, “No, no, no.”

31:13  Leslie:  Okay. So, A) toddlers and adolescents look very similar in the neurotypical and even more so for the neurodivergent. So, what's very important is that we remember that. And parents, I say, when you are using distraction and other tools, when your child is a toddler: don't put them away in the closet or to the attic. Don't get rid of them. You're going to need those tools again, because as an adolescent, you got to figure out how to reconnect. 

You have to remember that they need a voice. They want to say, “no.” They're practicing separating. So, creating some independence and agency, and that is one piece of being a teenager. And then another piece of having a neurodivergent brain says, “I might think about one thing and one thing only.” So for Liam, he might be very clear on knowing how to say “no,” but he may have difficulty holding the other perspective of your needs. So, he's thinking “no,” and it's not that he's not empathetic, because I'm going to remind you he's got that big heart, right?

32:30  Claudia:  Yes, he is empathetic. 

32:33  Pedro:  It shows after the fact, you know. That's kind of the thing. He will say the “no,” or he'll do the thing, and then later he's like, “Oh, did I make you sad?” Or something like that. So, I think it catches up to him, but it's not something that happens, in the moment.

32:53  Leslie:  Good. I want to explain that a neurodivergent brain is sort of like on a railroad track—one track mind. So, when he is doing something, he's doing something; whereas I have an ADHD brain: mine looks like the train yard, where there's tracks going in every direction. So my job is to try to think of one thing in the moment; whereas his job is to practice holding more than one perspective at the same time. That is not the way his brain is naturally set up.

So that's a part that you're going to work on, with patience and understanding. “Hey, Liam, you're thinking about the fact that you're sitting and playing a video game, I'm going to share I've got a job for you…” taking out the garbage or coming and setting the table, or coming to dinner, or whatever it is. And you're going to, slowly but surely with your two hands, you're going to say, you've got this going on, I've got this going on. What kind of synthesis…how do we put that together? How do we solve that? 

It sounds like he's very intellectual, very intelligent. So give him the problem, don't give him the task or the demand. Give him the problem, which means, “I have three things I need to do. I need to set the table, take out the garbage and serve dinner. We would love you to join dinner, and right now you're sitting and playing a video game. How do we solve these problems and these issues, like, what would you do?” What would he say, if you did that? I know that's a lot of words.

34:35  Claudia:  He would say, “I'm busy with my video game.”

34:38  Leslie:  Excellent. “And I want to respect that you're busy with your video game. Again, here's the problem, Liam. We want to have dinner with you, and you're playing your video game, what's a synthesis? What's a solution to that problem, Liam? 

34:52  Claudia:  He would fight until we get into a fight about that. He's very much into having the last ounce of control. He has always been like that, since he was in diapers. Since he was in diapers, which I think is an awesome quality to have, but it can also be a curse. And then what I think we do is we say we have this problem, or we have this thing to solve, and then he starts going downhill very fast, not wanting to solve that with us, not wanting to be a part of that, just wanting to do his thing. 

And he escalates quickly. And then we get frustrated quickly, because we are trying to do this nicely, and then he's not doing this nicely. And then when we look at it, we are all upset, and we are all frustrated when we are all without patience. So then we don't do it. It's easier, right? It's easier not to do it, it's easier not to buy into a fight. Just let him be, let him do what he wants to do, and I'm going to do what I want to do. And again, then I feel guilty, because I should be trying more, correct? I don’t know...

36:11  Leslie:  Let's come back to…yes, go ahead.

36:13  Pedro:  I just kind of wanted to add. What Claude said is spot-on, and it kind of happens in the daily but I would say this, too. Liam would, very quickly just turn to Claudia and say, “Oh, what you should do is not invite me to dinner.” It's very quick to just make it her fault, that she's trying to create a situation. And that is very much a category, you know,that is what you call it like a trend or a thing. It's a topic. And we did maneuver some of those situations. And we have some non-negotiables, like, you have to come down to take your meds at 7:30, and then you get some food, and then there's no screen around that time. 

Or like, putting the silverware away is something that he does. Laundry is something that now he does for himself, but it's still kicking and screaming. But, all those negotiable, non-negotiables, you can say, “Hey, those are great victories.” Yeah, but I can tell you that the cost for us to be able to get there, they came with a lot of scars and a lot of baggage. We were able to land some of those things, and you can say, “Well, a 16-year old should be doing 10x that.” Yeah, maybe, I don't know, but that's what we have. I value what we have, but the cost has been very high.

37:46  Claudia:  He would also say something like, “Okay, can I have, then, more screen time, if I do what you want me to do?” He will try to negotiate. And I told him one of these days, “You should be a lawyer. You have arguments for every single thing that we put in front of you. You have something to say.” And he wants to have the last word. I was, like, “You have to be a lawyer, because you're going to win your cases by just annoying the people to just say, ‘Okay, whatever. Just do it.’” And then he will negotiate. He will negotiate until he's blue in the face, or until somebody says, “You know what, go to your room and let us be,” or something. He is strong-willed.

38:27  Leslie:  So, strong-willed is a fabulous quality when it's used effectively as an adult and whatever. For parents, it is the thing that drives you nuts or is really challenging, it wears you down, and all of that. So the challenge for a parent is, “How do I raise this strong-willed child without trying to get rid of a quality that actually is going to serve him later?” So you have described many of these qualities, and you say, “You could be a lawyer.” Well, he's got certain skills. He's got the skill and the skill that you're describing as a lawyer, or the one who wants the last word—those are all the same as that track, that single track. “I am going to stay on this thought, and I am going to stay with this concept, and I am going to argue my point until I get to the end of the line.” He's on that track, as opposed to getting distracted. 

Even though he may get distracted by other things, there are times when he wants something, he is not getting distracted. So, I want to first validate how exhausting it is for you as parents. I don't really need to validate that—you know that, you know it very well. But I want to say you're not alone, and I want to say you're not doing anything wrong. You're not doing anything wrong, because it's taking you so much…it's taking so much effort. 

As a parent, I have a lot of energy, but I like to save my energy. So one thing I say is: Save your breath. Or listen twice as much as you speak. I want to stay in this job without burning myself out. And it is hard because you are putting out much more effort than you're getting back. In most cases, parents put out a lot of effort to raise children, and at least while they're growing up, you're not getting it back. 

Yes, there are some children who are like, “Mommy, let me give you a hug. Daddy. Let me give you a hug. Let me tell you how great you are.” You might get that once a year on Mother's Day and Father's Day. It's not an easy thing. We don't get it back from our children. That is not their job. It's our job to raise them, to put this energy into them, and at the same time, we have to honor the fact that it's exhausting. So save your breath. Every once in a while, maybe you don't want to have that argument. “Okay, Liam, you get to have the last word.” Let him.

40:56  Claudia:  I’m doing this today, Leslie. I'm doing this today, like, right now. I'm going to start right now. I feel like saving my breath forever. I'm so tired of talking to him. [Laughter]

41:08  Leslie:  Good. Then, guess what? You're going to get his attention. Mark my words. I can't wait for our next session. When you come back and say, “He said, ‘Mom, what's wrong?’” I guarantee you he says, “Mom, what's wrong?” If you actually save your breath and you can say, “Oh, I'm using a new skill called Save My Breath.” 

41:22  Claudia:  You have not met him, but you know him. [Laughter]

41:23  Leslie:  Okay, so you're going to try that. You're going to save your breath, because you don't need to turn blue in the face. You don't need to have the last word—unless you do. 

Maybe you're similar to him. One thing that I'm hearing from the two of you, and it's the same thing as saying that a child is strong-willed, I hear your passion about trying to raise him. I'm going to actually ask you to turn the volume down on your passion for raising him, because I know you have such passion for raising him to be a decent, wonderful human being. And if you turn the volume down, you're still going to get there.

42:09  Claudia:  Makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. I mean, I'm actually thinking, “How did I not think of that one?”

42:17  Leslie:  I love when the obvious is missed, and I like being able to say the obvious. So yes, it's not rocket science. It is obvious, but it's not obvious that sometimes when we're so passionate, we're so dedicated, we get so worn out.

42:36  Claudia:  Because we want results, because we are putting so much effort into it. You want to see results. He is the most important person in our lives. We do everything for him. So how come this is not working? It makes no sense. It should work.

42:52  Leslie:  It is working. It's…when you put your money into a long term investment or into a savings plan, does it work the day you put your money in?

43:02  Claudia:  No. Got to be patient. 

43:05  Pedro:  It takes forever. 

43:06  Leslie:  Thank you. Patience. It takes a while. What's going in, is in there. You need a little more faith that your son is hearing you and you're modeling it, and you're passionate. And I can hear when he turns around, even if it's a day later, and he says, “Oh, I think you were disappointed.” He's picking up on it all. He's picking up on it all. So I need you to have a little more faith—faith in the process. 

This is an unknown. You don't know how he's going to turn out. So, my asking you to have faith is faith in the idea that you're doing your job, you're modeling for him. You're going to keep working on some things yourself, and you're going to maybe let go of some of those expectations, that you need to see your results immediately. Teenage years are challenging like toddler years. 

44:01  Pedro:  Okay.

44:02  Claudia:  And what I want to say here is that I understand that it might take him even longer than a neurotypical kid to reach a point of, let's say, maturity. And that is totally fine with us. But I think that what we are missing here today is seeing a little bit of that working. Because when you don't see it working for so long, you start questioning everything. And then again, if it takes him to be, like, 25 to be able to launch as an adult, I'm totally fine with that. I just miss seeing that there is hope there somewhere. 

44:43   Leslie:  Well, you kept saying potential. And what I want to say about potential…I'm going to say potential is a dirty word, because it puts an incredible amount of pressure on you as parents. And if you are saying that to him, it puts incredible amount of pressure on him. It's very similar to when children I've spoken to—many, many children—who say their parents or teachers or the world is telling them to find their passion at five, at seven, at 12, at 19. And then, if they go to college and they don't know what their passion is, those kids are lost. 

So passion and potential are dirty words because they put pressure on us. Life is fine without a passion. If that's…you need to have a passion—let's take a little pressure off. We don't want the pressure of those words. I know you didn't use the word passion, you used the word potential. Look at him now. And as we did in the beginning, he may have some challenges, but he has so many beautiful strengths that your job is to keep connecting to both of those parts of him. 

Don't give up on the challenging parts, but reduce some of your energy towards it. Save some of your breath, save some of the output. Just take it a little bit easier.

46:06  Claudia:  It sounds so good. It sounds amazing.

46:11  Pedro:  It sounds good. It sounds good to be able to put the guard down a bit, I suppose. I think they were just hyped about, you know, we’re constantly on it. So, yeah, let's…I often don't work on faith, but let's put faith…[Laughter]...we're going to, you know, that kind of taking a step back. Maybe less is more.

46:30  Leslie:  Yes. 

46:30  Claudia:  Thank you so much, Leslie. I’m excited. 

46:34  Leslie:  Great. Take care.

[Music: Acoustic Motivation by Coma-Media]

46:46  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  I want to thank Claudia and Pedro for being the warm, sensitive, caring parents that they are, and remind them that their son has so much going for him. These are, truly, parents who have done their homework to understand and accept their child. They're simply trying too hard. Their worry leads to incredible frustration, because they are looking for specific results. 

It's not your job to make your child who they are going to be. They've got a lifetime to figure that out. During this episode, you heard that Claudia and Pedro, like many other parents, believe that their job is to make their child into a good person. 

So, how do you define your job as being a parent? What's your job description? My definition of being a parent is to guide your child into knowing who they are. 

There's a poem on this topic that I love called, On Children by Khalil Gibran. And as he wrote, “Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not from you, and though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.” I've included the full poem in this week's show notes.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

Join us next week for my second session with Pedro and Claudia, where we talk a lot about panic attacks and how they can look different from person to person. You can also subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts, and if you feel so inclined, please rate and review on Apple podcasts to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com to register. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury and Dale Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury.  Thanks so much for joining me. And this week, remember to save your breath when parenting. Listen twice as much as you talk.

Transcribed by Eric Rubury