Pedro & Claudia Part 2 of 3: When Panic Attacks Disrupt the Whole Family

Anxiety attacks are not something we ever want to see our kids suffer through, especially if as parents we suffer them as well. In her second session with Pedro and Claudia, Leslie explores panic attacks and how they might differ from parent and child. The session also takes a turn towards the idea of “having the last word,” and what negative things are being reinforced when you continue to have this power struggle with your child. 

Time Stamps

• 4:58 How panic attacks affect the whole family in different and unique ways
  • Symptoms of panic attacks in a child vs parent
  • The hangover of the panic attack
  • The role of a person whose partner is suffering a panic attack
• 10:22 The difference between guilt and shame
• 12:23 Feelings come and feelings go 
• 13:13 Definition of panic attack.
• 15:18 Self talk skills help you when having a panic attack. Use these phrases:
  • “I am safe. I am capable.”
  • “Feelings come and feelings go”  “This too shall pass”
• 17:00 Understand the cause of panic attacks 
• 17:13 Develop skills before during and after panic attacks 
• 19:23 Sympathetic versus parasympathetic nervous system 
• 20:48 T.I.P.P.Skills to use to calm down the nervous system: 
  • The divers reflex Skill
  • Intense exercise Skill
  • Paced breathing Skill
• 27:35 Finding the middle path between acceptance and change —
• 28:45 When parents practice doing less as an antidote to overparenting
• 32:12 Kids and parents who want the last word - a power struggle
• 32:20 Discuss the skills you are using with your child and even with the school so everyone is on the same page
• 35:00 When having the last word works
• 36:22 Why parents engage in the power struggle of wanting the last word
• 38:12 Have faith that what you say “registers somewhere”
• 39:30 Parents have to remember that you don’t have to prove your own sense of personal authority without getting the last word
• 40:10 Reframing where the control lies. You want to have control over your own emotions
• 40:38 Overparenting is a strategy when parents are being controlled by their fears

Show Note Links:

NIH Research Article on Panic Disorder and Best Practices

TIPP Skills including a Video of Divers reflex skill

Leslie Demonstrates How to use the Diver Reflex Skill on Video

New York Times Article about Inside Out 2

Leslie-ism: When you feel panic coming on, tell yourself, “I am safe and I am capable”.

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and 

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:02  Claudia:  I've had a lot of guilt around having panic attacks because it disrupts everybody else's lives. And there's nothing I can do about it, and people want to help me, and there's nothing they can do. I mean, I don't even know what to do with myself at that time.

0:22  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  Panic attacks can be scary to experience and to witness. They are both extremely common and extremely debilitating in adults and children, and not always easy to identify. As a matter of fact, an astonishingly high number of emergency room visits are panic-attack-related. But there's hope: you can learn to identify and manage your or your child's panic and move through it, rather than be controlled by it. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting therapy podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in therapy sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster; and neither are you. 

Today, we focus on anxiety and panic and how differently it presents in Claudia and her 16-year-old son, Liam. Claudia knows when she's having a panic attack, but doesn't recognize when her son is, because his symptoms are quite different from her own. This is Pedro and Claudia's second session, and this recording was actually delayed because of Claudia’s panic attacks. So we start the conversation there. 

We also spend time talking about who gets the last word in a conversation and how that can lead to power struggles with your child. Letting go of having the last word means you're prioritizing the relationship over your need to be right. It shifts the focus away from a win-lose dynamic. 

Now, as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed, and though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. So let's begin.

2:27  Leslie:  Hello. Claudia. Hello, Pedro. How are you guys today?

2:31  Claudia:  Hi Leslie, how are you?

2:33  Leslie:  I'm doing well, just listening to some rumbling thunder in the background. I actually love it, but hopefully we'll keep our power throughout this session. How are you, Pedro?

2:44  Pedro:  I'm great, thank you, Leslie.

2:47  Leslie:  All right. We're back for this session, and I know that we canceled the last session. Claudia, do you want to talk about that?

2:55  Claudia:  Sure. So first I'd like to apologize that it was so last minute, but it was completely unexpected. So, that day, I had a panic attack, like, first thing in the morning, and our session was scheduled for around noon, and by that time, I was not in the right mind yet to talk. So, yeah, sorry for that, but I'm doing good. I've been living with panic attacks for over 20 years, so they don't scare me anymore. They still knock me out when I am having them, but I don't worry about them as I used to anymore. They happen randomly, so that's why I couldn't cancel in advance.

3:48  Leslie:  There's no advance notice, so no apology. And thanks for sharing that, because I'm curious. We know that when you're talking about Liam, we're talking about a sensitive kid. Does he have any panic attacks?

4:03  Claudia:  He does not have, not panic attacks, but he is diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. So, he does get anxiety attacks, and it's different from what I can see, different than what I feel. I really feel panic and he just wants to be quiet. He does some physical symptoms, like he gets pale, he gets nauseous, but he just, he wants to be left alone. And for me, it's more of like, again, it's panic—I think that's the best word to describe it. Yeah, he is affected, definitely, by that; and he hates it, just like I hate panic attacks.

4:57  Pedro:  From an outsider perspective, I can see how this affects him differently. I think Liam kind of gets a little bummed, and it's like, “Hey, I don't feel great.” He feels a little clammy, and it seems to be more controlled. It's something that maybe he can deal with it in a couple of hours. Or maybe with additional medication, he's fine. But Claudia is more like…I don't know…it feels, in a sense, stronger. It just feels like more of a debilitating thing. It really affects her, and I think she can cope with it real well, now. I think she can deal, she has the tool set to deal with it. But it still can put her out of commission for a day and even two, depending on how the medications affect her, because there seems to be a long tail, which I don't see in Liam.

5:50  Leslie:  So, I would say, yes, everyone who suffers from panic attacks and it is suffering… boy, it's not easy. It's really painful, very, very painful, that when you have those panic attacks, it affects you. And I'm hearing…everyone's individual…I would almost say that he sounds like he's having a panic attack. So when it has that physiological response of possibly getting nauseous and needing to quiet down and shutting down, I think he's reacting in a way that is helpful to him. But it almost sounds like he's having milder, but panic, attacks as well. Especially because one thing that's typical of a panic attack is that there's a hangover, even if you don't take medication—which sounds like you both can take some medication—it can still have that hangover. Your body is usually exhausted from it. 

So, I'm so anxious to hear more about the parenting from last time. But, if you don't mind, we'll take a moment to talk about panic attacks. I mean, that's such a common…the two of you are dealing with it. It must affect you. Pedro, it  must affect you. And you're doing things, and then all of a sudden, the panic attack shows up, and it might change your plans. It might have changed what you're doing. It affects the whole family.

7:10  Pedro:  Right. And I can tell you, it's been a whole journey of learning with it as well. And it's something that, if I try to make a contrast between me of today and me, or us, of today and as of, like, 10, 15, years ago, it's a stark difference. I think my role is to be there for her and support her and make sure she's safe. But not to make it go away, because I can't, and she can't either. Also, throughout the years, I've seen how Claudia just became really good at identifying, like, “I'm having one. I'm going to try to get ahead of it. I need to cancel my appointments. And I'm just going to go to bed for a little bit.” And that works out. 

Sometimes it still gets out of hand, but, yeah, it is much better than it was 10, 15 years ago. If anything, I was probably not very nice to her when it was happening, because I didn't understand. I'm like, “Why the hell are you doing this? Suck it up buttercup,” you know. So I was probably not the best partner at the time. At same time, maybe she didn't have all the tools that she has today to deal with it. And we made a lot of mistakes. We called 911, and we had fire trucks showing up. And I think we learned a lot from this journey. 

8:43  Claudia:  But it's funny he says that, because I never felt this way coming from him. I always felt that he was very supportive. And if anything, I always felt…I've had a lot of guilt around having panic attacks because it disrupts everybody else's lives. And there's nothing I can do about it, and people want to help me, and there's nothing they can do. I mean, I don't even know what to do with myself at that time. 

So I never felt this way. He never made me feel this way. But I also feel that the way that I deal with it affects how he deals with it. I am a thousand times better prepared today than I was even, like, 10 years ago. You learn. You accept and you learn from that. But yes, you are exhausted. You are mentally exhausted after one, and physically. And the day after, usually is also, I feel it's like a hangover, really. You’re just slow and you have no energy. And again, I still deal with feelings of guilt around that; which every single counselor has told me you cannot control it. It's like feeling guilty for having a cold or for having an earache. It's out of your control. But again, the stigma around mental disorders, right? We feel like we can't control it, or we should control it.

10:17  Leslie:  So we want to have a lot of compassion for all three of you around this. And the guilt says you're acting in a way that goes against your values. The intention we can think about, are you intending to hurt other people? Are you intending to disrupt people? Are you intending? And the answer to that—you're shaking your head—is no, you're not intending to harm, to hurt, to interrupt, or any of that. And so guilt may not be the emotion; that actually it may be that you feel more shame around it, you may feel like you're going to be rejected by others, and that's what you were talking about with the stigma. 

There's a little difference between guilt and shame. Shame is when we feel like we might be rejected, or we think we're bad because we have these panic attacks or something like that. So, I just want to bring a lot of compassion to this situation, because you are doing the best you can. You have both grown and learned how to deal with this. And maybe there's not another word to say. I would just say, thank you for showing up. Thank you for facing the life that's yours, and it comes with these panic attacks. And I would just say, thanks for doing all that—thanks for being you. You're doing it, you're being you, and every day you keep working to do your best. 

11:44  Claudia:  Thank you so much, Leslie. Yes, it makes sense that it might not be guilt. It's just plain guilt that others have feelings around it. But when I am in my right mind, I can logically accept that, but when it's happening, or even after, you cannot control the feeling. When you think, “No, I'm not going to feel this way,” you already felt that way. So, and again, I'm also learning how to accept that that's how I'm going to feel, and it's going to go away and life's going to be back to normal. 

12:23  Leslie:  So we have feelings that come and feelings that go. A great line that I love to use, when guilt shows up, when shame shows up: It's a feeling; and feelings come and feelings go. That gives us a little separation from that. Dialectically, you know I love that magic, “and.” I want to say: and I wonder if there are any ideas that I can offer you that might help with panic attacks. Okay, you're both nodding your head so you're both anxious…

12:57  Claudia:  Yes, because if it's going to help me and Liam, and also, in a way, support Pedro, because then he doesn't feel like he needs to solve; because he wants to solve all the problems if he doesn't feel that way. I mean, we can only appreciate any advice. Yes.

13:11  Leslie:  Great. And Pedro, I do want to say that I loved before, when you said you're there not to fix her when she's having a panic attack. You're there to support. Love it. Love it. Love it. Great idea to translate to your son, as well, as you raise him. So we'll come back to that in a minute. 

So, what do we know about panic attacks? Panic attack is your nervous system telling you that there's danger and there's an alarm going off. Now it should panic. If there's a bear behind you, it should panic. If the house is on fire, we need that adrenaline to kick in. We need the cortisol to pump up our system and make us sweat and make us move and make our heart pound and make us do all those things when there's a real danger. I don't know what happened in the last example, but my guess is when you have your panic attacks, you have not been in that kind of danger.

14:10  Claudia:  No. There were no bears. 

14:12  Leslie:  There were no bears. So I'm going to actually say, when a panic attack shows up, can you look around? I'm jumping in right now. I'm going to teach you more about panic attacks. But I wonder if you want to look around to the left and say, “No bears there.” Look to the right and say, “No bears there.” And you actually talk to the cells in your body and your nervous system that says, “Oh no, no. Thank you for alerting me to a danger. No bears. No bears.”

14:42  Claudia:  I mean, self-talk is essential, right? You have to keep talking to yourself, and then it comes in waves where you say, “Oh my god, this is going to last forever. The medication is not going to work.” And then you panic more, and then you have to self-talk again into, “Of course it's going to work. Of course it's going away. It has always gone away with the medication.” So, self-talk is the main tool that I think anybody should have in their toolbox. You have to use that; otherwise, then you really, really panic.

15:18  Leslie:  Absolutely. The words, the words that we say, we need to feel safe, we need to feel capable.” I've got this. I'm safe.” So, yes, the self-talk is super important. And when the thought is going to last forever, again, that's a thought, that's a feeling that's going to come and go, “Hello, thought.” You can just sort of acknowledge it, because it is normal for that. So the body is having a false alarm. 

And when you're not having a panic attack, or maybe in individual therapy, you can talk to a therapist about, what is it? “Do I have…do I feel overwhelmed, like I'm going to be trapped.” I'm not going to go into that now, but there's a cause, and you do want to explore the causes. Sometimes it's feeling overwhelmed, sometimes it's feeling trapped, sometimes there's a reminder of a previous trauma, that there's some kind of reminder of it, even if it's very far-fetched. So there are a lot of causes for panic attacks, which are very understandable, and we want to understand those causes so we can look out for them.

So if something happened to you as a child in the dark, and the sun is going down, and you think, “The sun is going down, I'm not home yet,” panic might show up. I just made up that scenario, but panic might show up because it's doing its job to keep you safe, because at one time you were not safe in the dark. So, exploring the causes is very important so that we can stay one step ahead of it. And we can't always. You're going to get surprised. You're going to have the panic attack. So we just want some skills before, during, and after that can help us. 

So the before is understanding the causes. There is a cause. It could even be physiological, like, let's say you have a stomach grumbling—you're hungry and your stomach grumbles. But let's say there's anxiety about health issues. You may not even have the thought, it might be so fast, “What if it's cancer?” And then, of course, it's like, “Okay, I have to panic. I have cancer.” And so even if it's not logical, which is totally understandable, it's not logical, but something's setting off this panic.

17:38  Claudia:  It's amazing that you say that, because I feel like it has been my journey in life, to try to explain why I have what I have, why I panic. Because then I know what to avoid .I mean, if it's a spider, then I don't go next to the spider. But it's so much more complex than that—I really cannot pinpoint one situation that is easily explained. Sometimes it happens and it happens out of nowhere, it's absolutely so fast, and it comes in. You're fine, and then you are not fine. And I think it's a natural response from any human being trying to understand why things happen, because then you can do something about it. And that is also frustrating, not knowing. 

18:29  Leslie:  So, we believe behavior has causes, and that's why we look. But again, I appreciate that you're saying, “I keep searching for the why.” I don't want to put that pressure on you—we don't need to know the why in order to help you. It's a possibility, and it's not a necessity. It's probably not coming out of the blue. It's either something happening internally, physiologically, it could be something set off, cortisol or whatever is happening. I believe it's very real, and therefore—I mean, it is real—and therefore we don't know where the cause is coming from. 

But let's let that go. Again, that could be individual therapy. It's not even necessary for us to move on. But here's the thing about a panic attack: the solution is about calming down the nervous system. Because the parasympathetic nervous system—what goes into this hyper-arousal—you're fully, fully activated. And the goal to treat it is to calm the sympathetic nervous system down into the parasympathetic nervous system, which is rest and digest. 

There are different ways we can do that. Medication certainly can help lower your heart rate and do things that help, and I support that. Here's the problem with taking some medications—they make the panic attacks continue and get bigger. The research shows that sometimes we need to get someone off the medication so their panic attacks can actually go away. So by not having the medication, which I imagine you hearing me say this would panic you…

20:15  Claudia:  There's no way I'm letting my medication go.

20:21  Leslie:  That's fine. That's fine. 

20:22  Claudia:  That's my first thought, of course. [Laughter]

20:24  Leslie:  Right. You can practice having your medication and using some other skills to see if some other skills work as well. There is something called the diver’s reflex, and I'd love to teach that to you, and maybe have Liam learn the same thing. It's just an amazing way of reducing the body when it is having a skills breakdown, its intense emotions, and you can't talk your way through the emotion when you're feeling this kind of arousal. And what it is, it's putting your face in pretty ice cold water and submerging it, holding your breath and covering your temples and your face, holding your breath for about 20 to 30 seconds, if you can hold it that long. 

And when you do that—and I want you to try this when you're not having a panic attack. The whole family can try this. When I do one of my DBT groups, we all do it. We all do it in class, and we put our face in cold water with some ice cubes in it, get your towel all ready, maybe a timer as well, but you can count and you submerge your face. You put the bowl of water on a low table. You stand up over the bowl so that your head is inverted and your head is below your heart a little. Yes, anyone who has heart difficulties, you need to make sure it's okay with your doctor. But overall, it's safe for everyone else. You just have to make sure there are no heart conditions. And you submerge your face. And what it does is it brings you from a sympathetic state to a parasympathetic nervous system. And sometimes it happens once, and you only have to do it once, and you're done. Another time, you might have to do it a second time or even a third time, but you will be amazed at how effective this is.

22:08  Claudia:  It's easy, and I would love to try, definitely. 

22:13  Leslie:  So give it a try. Definitely try it a few times. When you're just a little upset, you might not feel the same response because you're not in the hyper-arousal, but let's say you are a little nervous to do it, you might still feel something. So, I would say, try it. Practice it. See if you can get Liam to do it with you. Everyone try it. You might as well try it too, Pedro. And then the more you use it, the more you're willing to use it when you're actually having a panic attack. 

22:45  Claudia:  Yeah, I will definitely try that. And I think that we can definitely get Liam to try. He does not like to feel anxious, and he will try anything. 

22:55  Leslie:  There are some other skills. These are the TIPP skills from Dialectic Behavior Therapy. Changing your body temperature is one—that's what I just described. The second one is intense exercise. So jumping jacks, running around the house as fast as you can, push ups, anything to change your heart rate. And actually, the irony is you're increasing it in order to calm things down. 

And the third one is something called paced breathing. Now, when you're having a panic attack, I know it's very hard to control your breathing; but again, this is something you can practice. Pace breathing is when the exhale is twice as long as the inhale. You can practice this again at all times. You don't need to have a panic attack. You can have a minor anxiety and do this. And it's, breathe in, and because you're nervous, it might only be one, two, inhale, you count to two, and then you would try to exhale a little slower, one, two, three. And then inhale, one, two, and then exhale, one, two, three, four. Again, that changes the chemistry in your body. That's also very effective. Not quite as easy to do when you're feeling the full blown. But having done it so long, you know when a panic attack is starting, that might be the best one to do when it's really small. That and the water, the cold water, either one of those catching it earlier, we all know will help. 

24:28  Claudia:  And the breathing, you can do anywhere. If it happens out of the house and you don't have your bucket of water, you can do the breathing anytime, definitely. 

24:40  Leslie:  Yes. Okay, so those are our TIPP skills. We use those skills when we are feeling intense emotions—it's called the skills breakdown—we can't use our other skills at that moment. So thanks for listening. I hope those can help as you continue on this path of living with these panic attacks. 

25:01  Claudia:  Thank you for sharing. That's really valuable information. I appreciate it.

25:06  Leslie:  Okay, good. 

[Music: Flowerpot by Olexy]

25:24  Leslie:  All right. So, follow up: what's been happening in the few weeks, and I don't know, did you try to do a little less parenting?

25:34  Pedro:  Yes, I think there's definitely been less just in general, like less drama, fewer engagements. I think that that has certainly been true for me. It took a little bit of intentionality to maybe not engage, or letting things just be. And I think that the point that I'm trying to make is that Liam didn't get the memo that less is more. So he continues to engage. And if anything, he found it weird, like, “Dad, what's going on? No, no, we're going to talk about this.” 

So he kind of doubled down on it, which took us some intentionality, again, to kind of cool it off and say, “Hey, look, I already said what I needed to say about this.” But he's like, “But why?” So we tried. But in hindsight, yes, I think there's been fewer dramatic moments, or fewer situations that we just kind of got the best out of each other. So that's a plus. 

On the other hand, I just felt that there were less ways for me to maybe be a dad and provide instruction. It's kind of when I saw something necessarily that I kind of wanted to talk to him about, I just felt that I had to let go against my own value system. So I think, on hindsight, I think it's a valuable thing. You definitely learn…I learned some stuff here, and kind of maybe figured out better on how to engage and when to engage. But I do feel that I kind of let things go, maybe a little more than I wanted to, in a sense. Because I still think that as a dad, I need to teach him resiliency and some other things. And I felt that it got to a point that I had to maybe sacrifice that. And so I guess I will say this: I'll continue to find the right balance going forward.

27:36  Leslie:  That's it. We do want to find a balance. We don't want to swing a pendulum all the way to the other side, and you throw up your hands and say, “Okay, I'll just let things go.” No, no, no. I love that you said that. I want you to have your values. I want you to feel like a dad. But we will continue to now balance: what can you do instead or differently? If doing less was helpful, let's find out what is stepping in look like? What does showing up look like? 

So we'll come back to that. There's no one answer. As a matter of fact, it's very complex. We got to do a number of things—quiet the conflict down, we don't need the conflict to teach anything. Although that's not true, conflict can teach. But the conflict wasn't helping either one of you. And so you have moved a little bit beyond that by doing a little less, saying a little less, and we'll come back to how to stay in there without just disappearing as a dad. Excellent. Okay, Claudia…

28:49  Claudia:  So, I was so excited about the idea, and I was like, “This is easy. I can do that.” And oh, my God, I cannot do that. It's so hard for me. The very first day, there was something that happened at school, that I'm not going to remember now, and all of a sudden we are talking to Liam, and I look at Pedro, and he's like, “Stop, enough. Remember: parent less.” And I couldn't. I couldn't stop talking and trying to get the message across. And it kept happening in other situations where I had to make this conscious effort to say, “I'm going to stop talking now because I'm trying to do less parenting.” 

And I felt it was going to come so naturally, because it sounds so easy and it is not. It was not, and it was definitely a learning…there's a learning curve there, because I feel like I want to over-parent, without even noticing that I am over-parenting. And I do share the same experience with Pedro as far as Liam trying to keep going on things, on discussions, and I think that's part of his diagnosis. I suspect he has Oppositional Defiant Disorder, so it is hard for him to stop having a conversation or an argument, if he's not ready for that. He's going to try to have that last word, no matter what. 

So even if we already said, “Enough,” he's going to say something. And then we have to be the ones taking a deep breath and saying, “Okay, we're going to let this go.” And again, I also felt that sometimes I was avoiding a conversation, not to get into a situation where we have to be arguing. But at the same time, I noticed that, for the smaller things, where I can let the over-parenting goal, he has responded well. So, one example that is small but shows how it kind of works, is he's having this puberty-pimple phase. And I keep saying, “Put medication on your face. Put medication on your face.” And he argues, automatically? He says, “It looks good. I don't need it.” And then one of these days, I said, “It's time for your medication.” And he goes, “I don't want to.” And I said, “Okay.” Then I turned my back, and there he was putting his medication on his face. [Laughter] At that point, I was like, Have pimples.” It's something that's going to happen, no matter what. So you want to have your pimples, have your pimples. But as soon as I said, “Okay,” right away, he was putting his medication on his face. 

31:53  Leslie:  Well, you ever see the dog playing rough house with the toy? He's holding on. The dog's not going to let go of the toy. The dog loves to hold on. Well, your son loves to hold on to a good argument, too. And it sounds like you like to hold on too.

32:12  Claudia:  I learned that, yes, I did. And one of the things that I wanted to share that has been nice is that I shared that with his school and now his teacher is doing the same in the classroom. Yes. She loved the idea. She felt the same way that we do, as far as him hanging on to things. And she said, “Looking back now, I feel like I end up doing the same with him in class, because he thrives on that, and then he kind of pulls you in on that. I just want to say here—disclaimer—that he goes to a very small private school that specializes in kids on the spectrum. So we are very lucky as far as that, because there's four students or five students in his class and five grown-ups there. So they can accommodate that. 

And she has been doing that too. And she said it's been going really well, because my relationship with him is better. We are not like, going over and over and over things. And she's like, I love the idea. So it was nice sharing with them and then taking that in also, because we are on the same page. Everybody is on the same page. So that was amazing. And we are very lucky that the school will do that with us. 

33:43  Leslie:  I love that you're all on the same page. There's one person who's not on the same page.

33:49  Claudia:  Yep, the main person.

33:51  Leslie:  Right—Liam. This is not a secret. I would love someone…I mean, obviously, if I was working with you and the whole family, I would share this with Liam. “Hey, Liam, do you realize you love to hold on? Do you realize that you want to see your thoughts through? You want to see your arguments through. You are committed to making sure that all of your thoughts get heard, and you want to make sure people understand you.” That's the positive side of all this. He really feels committed to—and it's like the dog on the bone—he's holding on until he can get his last word.

34:27  Claudia:  I think we have said that to him. But the thing is, we didn't say nice words, and that's the difference.

34:35  Leslie:  Oh, you say it in a negative way. 

34:39  Claudia:  Yes, absolutely, we say that in a negative way. Like, “You are stubborn. You want to win every conversation.” So I think that the way we passed the message was not the right way. I think he knows that. But again, we made it sound negative. 

34:57  Leslie:  All right. I repeat this all the time. Let's point out that it's a quality that works some of the time, and the same quality sometimes doesn't work. Sometimes we don't get to have the last word. But I just want to say with love and unconditional support, “Hey buddy, you love having the last word and it's not a negative, because sometimes that's going to be fantastic in your life. You're going to fight for a cause, you're going to care about someone, you're going to make sure that someone doesn't get away with something that's unjust.” 

These are the kids that tend to actually fight for justice. It's really wonderful, because they're so passionate and committed. So yes, I would go back and just bring out that the quality works for him, and other times it may not. And yeah, let him see that people are not engaging the same way, and let him have the last word. 

Now, why is it? Let's take a moment and say, “Why is it so frustrating for a parent when a child is arguing for that last word, and why do we have to label them with Oppositional Defiant Disorder?” Because I don't even think that's what it is. I think it's just the way his brain is set up. But why do you think as a parent, you want to make sure you get the last word? I've been there. I've done…you know, I had one. I have a daughter who wanted the last word all the time. But why is it that you think you want it, or you keep engaging? Let me put it that way.

36:26  Claudia:  I think we are at a point where we feel so frustrated with the way things have been going, that every time we talk to him, it doesn't go well, or every time we have to talk about something, it kind of escalates. So at this point, it turned into this…it's like a little fight for the last ounce of control. And I think, in an irrational way, it's just because he wants it, so “I'm going be the parent, and I wanted you…you know…because I don't see, like, a logical reason, just like out of spite, almost. That sounds horrible, but…

37:05  Leslie:  I love your honesty. Yes, it's control. It might be it might be authority. Yes, go ahead, Pedro. 

37:12  Pedro:  For me, it's a little different. I can definitely see what Claudia is talking about, and obviously I observe the dynamics, and I can see how that's happening. But from my interactions with Liam, specifically, I think it's more like the fact that he keeps changing the conversation, because that's what that last word is, right? It just kind of, it's a modifier on the conversation. You know, “Oh, you haven't thought about this, but this happened,” or whatever. So whatever new tangent he takes, for me just leads me to believe that he didn't listen. He didn't internalize whatever I was trying to tell him. 

So he may like, “No, you still didn't get it, and you're moving away.” Like, “No, there's still something for you to learn here or internalize or to take.” That, at least for me, that's an indication, the fact that he's moving along, or doing something else means that he didn't get it. 

But going back to what you told us last time, “Hey, it registers somewhere.”

38:11  Leslie:  Yes!

38:12  Pedro:  And that's kind of what I'm trying to maybe hold on to; just kind of have faith in that, “All right, I'll shut up now, and let him do his little dance, or his little say;” trusting that is going to register. But I can tell you, there's no satisfaction.

38:27  Leslie:  That's beautiful. It is very hard. And as you said, Claudia, you realize how hard it is to stop. But the idea—and Pedro, thanks for holding on to it from last session—which is, yes, have a little faith that it went in. He heard it, it's planted. The seed is planted, and you're going to give it…let him do his little dance. He's going to learn. He will do it differently as he grows. Children do change, and even if that's his worst quality in life, hey, it's something that is livable, right? He will make friends, and someone will say, “All right, buddy.” It's okay. He can have it if that's the worst case scenario. 

And at the same time, if you're modeling that you can let it go, he will learn that you're modeling, “Okay, I'm going to let this go.” And as he goes on his different tangents, and he tries to pull you back in and all of that, can you say to yourself, “I don't have to prove that I'm in control. I don't have to prove that it's my authority.” Just because he keeps talking and he gets the last word doesn't mean he's gained the authority over you. 

So Claudia, you get to ask yourself, “Do I have a sense of my own personal authority without having to have the last word with him?” You know what I mean? You got to ask that question. And Pedro, sounds like you feel your authority with him without having to fight for that control. So parental authority is not going to be taken away if your child gets the last word, you're not losing anything. That's where it's like, “Okay, in this moment, he thinks he has control. I actually have control because I'm not engaging with him.” It's really reframing where the control is. “I have control over myself. That's what I want to have control over.”

40:26  Claudia:  I just had this thought now that maybe we were doing this over-parenting out of fear, actually. That we are not getting the message across, we are running out of time, he's going to be an adult pretty soon. And then what? So it's almost like we are in this race against time, that we have to put those values inside of him as fast as possible, because we don't have much more time. He's almost 17 years old, and like, oh my god, you know, you should be at another level of maturity, and I feel like we do things when we try and we try and we try, we don't get the result, and then, out of fear, we do more.

41:12  Leslie:  Wow. You said that beautifully. You really said that beautifully. It is fear that's sort of propelling you. And we don't really want to parent by fear, because our children feel that, and it doesn't feel good to them either. That's why he was surprised when you would let go. He’d go, “Hey, where are you? Where are you, Dad? 

I would love to pick this up in our next session, and that is the question of: are we running out of time?

41:44  Claudia:  Okay.

41:45  Leslie:  Are you not getting the message across to him? Are you not getting the results that you need to get? Those are the questions. I want to challenge those questions, but I understand those questions, why you're bringing them up, why you feel that. I think many parents feel the rush, the time pressure, the constraints, the I-need-to-see-results. So I think those are great questions for us to work on next time. 

So this time, notice how often that pops up in your mind. Notice if that's dictating the interaction. And where would you be without that thought, like, can you let it go? Can you let that thought go and just say what's happening in the moment?

42:29  Claudia:  Yes. Thank you, Leslie. Yes, sounds awesome.

42:33  Leslie:  Good. Take care, you two. 

42:36  Claudia:  You too. Thank you.

42:37  Leslie:  All right. Bye, bye.

[Music: A Walk in the Forest by Olexy]

42:57  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  Pedro and Claudia both embrace the suggestion to say less and reduce the back-and-forth exchanges with their son, Liam. For Pedro, saying less made him feel like he wasn't doing his job as a dad, and Claudia discovered how hard it was for her to resist getting the last word. Cutting back on these verbal power struggles helps maintain a strong relationship with your child and reduces your own frustration. Take a moment to think about how to connect with your child without engaging in power struggles. I want to thank Claudia and Pedro for sticking with the practice of being more intentional parents, even though it is uncomfortable. 

So, I want to come back to anxiety and panic attacks for a moment. The distinction between what you feel when you're experiencing a panic attack versus what it means when you're having a panic attack is critically important. Panic attacks often are a false alarm that you are in danger The underlying feeling of what sets off the panic attacks may be very justified, but the intensity or duration of the emotions does not fit the facts of the situation. This is what parents must teach their children and themselves. 

There are some great pop culture examples of managing anxiety, including the latest Pixar movie, Inside Out 2. The movie did such a fabulous job of making this point. And if you want more information about managing anxiety, I suggest you go back and listen to my earlier episode with anxiety expert Lynn Lyons. Links to everything are in the show notes. 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

Join us next week for my final session with Pedro and Claudia, where we talk about what it means to over-parent, fed by the fear of, will my kid be okay? 

Subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And if you feel so inclined, please rate and review on Apple podcasts to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury and Dale Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining me. And this week, remember: when you feel the panic coming on, tell yourself, “I am safe and I am capable.” 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury