Is My Child A Monster? A Parenting Therapy Podcast

Calm the Chaos: Parenting Neurodivergent Kids with Special Guest Dayna Abraham

• Leslie Cohen-Rubury • Season 2 • Episode 61

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Having a roadmap to deal with your child’s Intense emotions and behaviors sounds like a great idea. Oftentimes when parents reach out for professional help, they want changes and they want them NOW. But instant results are not always the reality of raising children. On today’s episode Leslie has a conversation with bestselling author and educator Dayna Abraham about raising neurodivergent children and offering listeners a roadmap that can help. We also focus on making sure our kids don’t grow up feeling “badly” about themselves even if they do feel different by creating changes in their home environment


About our guest Dayna Abraham:

Dayna Abraham, bestselling author of Calm the Chaos: A Fail-Proof Roadmap for Parenting Even the Most Challenging Kids. As a National Board Certified educator, parent of three neurodivergent children, and an ADHD adult herself, Dayna brings a unique and out-of-the-box perspective to parents raising kids in the modern world. 

Time Stamps

  • 6:08 Dayna Abraham’s abbreviated professional life story
  • 10:00 The Roadmap framework: (Venn Diagram - The YOU Piece, Connection, Understanding, Empowerment
  • 12:55 Description of Stages - Stages 1,2,3 set the foundation when you are in the eye of the storm
  • 14:07 How to recoup energy
  • 15:10 Putting ideas into practical examples
  • 21:47 Determining when is a good time to push your child, and when to back off.
  • 24:01 Work smarter not harder; sometimes kids just need to feel understood
  • 28:49 Modeling flexible thinking for your child 
  • 29:20 Kids don’t have meta-cognition, so it helps to “think out loud”
  • 29:43 Before you can self-regulate, you have to be self-aware. Kids learn self-awareness through the adults around them
  • 30:58 Parents cannot expect results overnight; need to focus on themselves and their patience
  • 32:06 Start with what we can control: ourselves
  • 36:22 If raising a neurodivergent child, adjust your timeline and adjust your expectations
  • 38:08 You’re exactly the parent your child needs

Leslie-ism: The first step to help yourself and your child is to ride out the storm. 

Show Note LInks:




[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]


0:02  Dayna Abraham:  You cannot “Amazon Prime” parenting. It does not come just, like, overnight. It takes time. And so you’ve got to look for these little tiny pieces and little tiny progress. And that means that maybe your remaining calm.


0:22  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  Many parents seek help when what they are doing is not working. So they want changes, and they want those changes now. And I get it, but what we want and the reality of raising children are two different things. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting therapy podcast, where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations. And, no, your child is not a monster. 


Today, I've invited Dayna Abraham to join me to talk about parenting neurodivergent children. And in case neurodivergent is a new word for you, it is a clinical term that describes brains that work differently than the typical brain. That includes things like autism, ADHD and learning disabilities. Dana is the best-selling author of Calm The Chaos: A Fail-Proof Roadmap for Parenting Even the Most Challenging Kids. She also hosts the Calm The Chaos parenting podcast. She's a national board certified educator, parent of three neurodivergent children and an ADHD adult herself. Through her compassionate Calm The Chaos framework, she has helped parents around the world. I'm so excited to welcome her to Is My Child A Monster? 


As a reminder, though I am a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. So let's begin. 


1:59  Leslie:  Hello, Dayna, thanks so much for joining me today.


2:03  Dayna:  Hi. I'm so glad to be here.


2:05  Leslie:  Well, I appreciate you being here so much. Thank you for joining us, and I have been following you for a long time. I'm one of your fans, someone who has just really appreciated the work you're putting out in the world. 


2:19  Dayna:  Oh, thank you so much. That means a ton to me to hear that.


2:22  Leslie:  You are making a difference for so many families. And your Calm The Chaos—I've just got to say that I'm so excited that you've put out both a podcast and a book. It's a year that you've had the book. So before we go into either one of those, I want to just connect with you on the fact that I think we're both neurodivergent parents to neurodivergent children.


2:48  Dayna:  Absolutely, yeah. And I wish I had grown up knowing I was neurodivergent. Think it would have saved a lot of heartache. But I think a lot of neurodivergent parents can relate to that now.


2:59  Leslie:  Right. And because we were both neurodivergent before the term was coined, or before we had that awareness. I knew there was something wrong with me, and I often felt like there was, like I said, there was something wrong with me, I'm bad… And as parents, we are trying to help children from feeling that same experience. And so that's something I would love to talk with you about today. 


Before we get started, I want to read what you have as a description to your podcast, if that's okay. You wrote, “Is your child's challenging behavior leaving you feeling exhausted, defeated and hopeless? You are not alone, you are not a failure, and your child is not broken. Welcome to calm the chaos parenting, the podcast for parents raising strong-willed children, highly sensitive and neurodivergent children. So that's just a great description. With my podcast Is My Child A Monster?, it has a very similar ring to that. We're both working to help people understand their children.


4:09  Dayna:  Umm hmm, that bridge. I like to think of it as being the bridge. I could work just with parents who already know that they're neurodivergent or that their kids are neurodivergent—hey have that awareness. But what I really enjoy doing is helping see parents have that aha moment of, “Wait a second. My child's not a monster. My child is unique, and my child has differences, and my child needs certain systems that work with their uniqueness. And wait—me too. I need certain things.” And seeing that aha moment and that perspective shift is where I light up and what is my joy. 


There's not a lot of people out there that can be that bridge between the two. You either have, you know, a lot of times you have people who are strictly just for what I call mainstream parents and parenting mainstream kids. And then you have people who are talking about neurodivergent kids or neurodivergent parenting. But you don't usually have a whole lot in between. So I think that's where your podcast, my podcast, our work, is really useful, because if we only focused on parents who already have the awareness, then we're going to miss a whole lot of people that need to understand their kids more.


5:21  Leslie:  Yes. And actually, it's my thing that I think all parents, believe it or not, the parents of the neurotypical kids also need to understand their kids. It's so respectful. It helps that relationship, that connection. And as you said, it is a language that that brings the parent and the child together. Which is another point—I love to give the kids the same language that we're helping the parents understand. 


5:50  Dayna:  Yeah, absolutely.


5:52  Leslie:  So let's stop a minute. Tell us who you are, what you do, why you do it, how did you get here—a little bit, a little background.


6:00  Dayna:  We only have 40 minutes, right? So I can't, like, tell you my entire life story. [Laughter] The kind of long and short of it is, I'm Dayna Abraham. I'm the founder of Calm The Chaos. I'm the author of several books, Calm The Chaos: A Fail-Proof Roadmap for Parenting Even the Most Challenging Kids, Sensory Processing 101, and The Superkids Guide to Conquering Every Day. So I've written a couple of books. I've been working online for the last 12 years with parents who are dealing with what I think are some of the most challenging situations that you can be faced with as a parent. And that work has expanded into working with even more parents, from just typical challenges and everyday problems and frustrations to like, I said, the ones that a lot of people don't talk about: “Do I take my kid to the emergency room? Do I call the police on my kid? My kid is vaping or stealing drugs—what do I do?”  So the extremes as well. 


And before that work, I was in the classroom for 12 years. My favorite kiddos were the kids that came with a paper trail behind them, or they were the ones that the teachers talked about in the teacher's lounge, like, “Oh, watch out for Sue—she's a mess. You're going to have your hands full.” I always found that when they were talked about in the teacher's lounge, they ended up being my faves. And then even before that, I was a non-diagnosed ADHD kid growing up in a family where my brother is bipolar, and I was on the receiving end of a lot of his meltdowns and a lot of his aggression growing up. So I had that experience. 


And then in the mix of all of this, I became a parent to three neurodivergent kiddos, my oldest being the one that really led me to do the work I do, and I start the book with this, where he was, you know, we were given a choice, basically, to let the police take him into custody at school, or for me to take him home and don't bring him back till I figured out what was, quote/unquote, wrong with him. And so that's kind of what led to this work. That kid is now 19, and so we've come a long way.


8:17  Leslie:  Yes, yes. Dale, one of my children—I have three children—and one of them likes to say that she made me the therapist I am, because it was challenging. Your situation sounds so challenging. And whether you have, I think you said, 12 years of experience in the school, or whatever that experience, we feel confident. But then we were dealing with our own children. And it's not that everything flies out the window, it's that there's: What do you hold on to? What is it that guides you to help your child who is struggling, and that's really important. 


So I love the idea. I'd like to jump right into the idea that you have this roadmap in your Calm, The Chaos book and in the podcast. You talk about a roadmap. And I think giving a framework to parents is really helpful. I talk about some foundational things, ways of understanding our children. So if you want, go ahead and share with us some of that roadmap.


9:20  Dayna:  Yeah, absolutely. So it's actually a two-part system that I've developed. A lot of it is intuition, but it's also combining all of the latest science and what we know about brains and bodies and about the nervous system and about neurodiversity; and kind of coupling that with some of these hard-earned truths that I've had to learn as a parent, and a lot of the things that many of us who are raising kids that don't fit the mold have had to learn on our own. 


And so it's kind of coupling those together and saying, “What are those base things, that framework, that if you just focus on these core elements, you're going to be okay?” And so that's where it started, with the framework, which is, if you think of a Venn diagram—for those of you that are listening and you're not watching a clip, think of a Venn diagram three circles all, kind of, converging in the center, and those circles are Connection. Understanding and Empowerment. And where they all converge in the center is the You piece. 


So that's the part that we can control, because we, as the parent, are the ones that I call the linchpin. We are only in control of ourselves, and so we can only control our own thoughts, beliefs, and the way that we show up for our kids. And then those other three things: I believe you can solve any problem on Earth with those four elements. So the Connection piece is less about, “Oh, can I play with you, or can I spend time with you?”... where a lot of mainstream parenting focuses on. It's more about acceptance of the child you have instead of the child you wished you were going to have, the child you thought you were going to have. And that is a huge piece, and helping that child feel seen and heard and valued for who they are, not for who you want them to be. 


That Understanding piece is the stuff that you were talking about, about understanding, “Why the heck does my kid do this? Or, why the heck do I do this? Why the heck, you know? Why is this such a struggle for us? What environment is best? What is the stress response that's happening? What is the sensory system doing? Like, what is going on here without needing a PhD in child development to be a parent?” 


And then that final piece of Empowerment is less about a top-down approach, and it's more about, “How can I empower everyone that is part of this situation to be able to get their needs met and to be able to advocate for themselves? How do we create a plan that works and can be adjusted and tweaked until it works for everyone in this situation?” And so those four pieces were the thing that were the tenants of what I taught and what I shared, as you know, for probably a good five or six years, and that's all we taught. And a lot of parents were getting a lot of results just with knowing those four elements. 


But what we found is people would get stuck, especially if they were stuck on their mindset piece, or if they were stuck on accepting their child—that's a process, that's a journey. And anyone that's parented a child, especially a child who doesn't fit the norm or doesn't fit the mold, then it does not feel linear at all. Success does not feel like point A to point B. I learned how to fix a tire, and I can just read the book from point A to point B. It feels like you're going up and down and back and around. And so I realized that there were these stages that parents go through. And that is where a lot of the advice you get online or from other parenting experts, a lot of times, starts at what I consider stage five. 


Let's build a family that works together. Let's create rules and boundaries and agreements, and let's set the structure in place. And so they're starting at stage five, best case scenario, and then maybe they'll talk about the let's-get-ahead-of-it. Let's teach your kids some skills. Let's build self regulation. Let's build growth mindset. Let's build all of these things your kids need—communication skills and all that—so that we can get ahead of the struggles we're having. 


But barely anyone was talking about: What do you do when you're just in it? When you are in the eye of the storm and things are extremely hard, you need a plan until until your plan works. So you need something that's going to hold you over. And that's where the roadmap really came in place. Stage one being: ride the storm. Like, what can you do to get through this moment with as little damage as possible? Stage two is: How do you recoup your energy without needing a whole day of self-care, without needing to give the kids to grandma or grandpa? What can you do, even while your kids are still with you, that can recoup your energy so that you have enough energy to handle another fight or another argument or another battle or meltdown? 


And then we move to stage three, which is that in-the-moment, just that diffusing, how do I show up? What do I say? What do I do that's going to de-escalate this situation, and I can stay connected through our argument or through this frustration that my kid is having? Once we've done those three stages, now we've built a foundation, we've built trust, we've built safety with our kids, and now we can start working ahead. We can start collaborating, we can start getting our kids involved. But up until stage three it’s all about us, the parent, and what we do and how we show up.


14:58  Leslie:  So I'd love to bring your ideas to a practical example. 


15:03  Dayna:  Absolutely.


15:04  Leslie:  I think that helps parents. Let's put it into practice. And also, it's interesting: I had a Q and A last night, and we were talking about the dilemmas that parents face, where there's two extremes. There's the extreme of, Do I give in, do I not give in? And I think that it's very…parents are often coming with the question of, “Well, I can't give in all the time. Because if I give in all the time, I might be understanding my child. I might be helping my child take off the pressure of doing things.” But how do we look at that balance for parents between how much do I do and the polarities of—the two extremes of, “Do I give in or am I very strict?”


15:51  Dayna:  Leslie, that is such a good question. I mean, I see this all the time, so parents will always struggle with, “Am I pushing them enough? Am I cobbling them? Am I feeding into this need for me to help them?” And I think that's where the roadmap actually comes in really well. It doesn't matter what topic you're talking about. 


But one that is top of mind for me is that it's the start of the school year when we're recording this, and so there are a lot of kids who are really struggling with getting out the door, going to school, doing their homework, starting a new morning routine, starting a new evening routine. My daughter has started ballet again, and so there's a lot of newness happening right now for families. And so we could take just an example, I'll do top of mind. So my daughter—I'm going to go through all the stages—so my daughter's doing ballet, and she was in a class with three kids, and one kid stopped going to ballet, and one leveled up over the summer, and so she finds this out the other night and just breaks down crying, and, “I'm not going to go to ballet. I'm not going to go anymore. I don't know anyone. It's not safe. I don't understand.” 


And that's a need for a ride-the-storm. I'm going to sit with her. I'm going to take my deep breaths. I'm going to go, “I hear you. I'm here with you. We don't have to solve it right now. It's okay to be upset.” I'm just going to sit with her, and then I'm going to know that this is something that's under the surface as we move forward for the whole rest of the week. 


So then the next day, it's time to do homeschool, and she's really struggling—really, really struggling to do her work. And normally, she is not a kid that really struggles that much. So much that she was like, “I don't want to do math, I don't want to do reading, I don't want to do that.” And everything was giving me…every moment was like pushback. I said, again: ride the storm. Deep breath. This is not about me. She's struggling with something. I don't know what it is, but she's struggling with something. Because in that moment, I had forgot about ballet. 


And so I said, Tell you what. Why don't you just watch the ballet on YouTube, and we'll count that as homeschool. We're just going to go with the basics. And she is okay with it. I think we're out of the woods. She starts watching the ballet, and she starts pouting and throwing things. “I'm not going to watch this. You can't make me.” And I was just like, Oh my goodness. 


So I will tell you right now, that is not the moment that you push your kid, that is not the moment that you try to get them to push through. That's: ride the storm. That is: take the deep breath, remind yourself it's not about you, and say, “Okay, I can see you're having a hard time. I'm going to sit with you.” Then go do something. And usually it's not this sequential, but the next thing you’ve got to do is make sure that you are in a good place. 


So I went to the kitchen and I got water. And I sat in the kitchen, in quiet. I drank my water. My husband came in. He was like, “Why is she having, like, what's going on?” And I was like, “Not quite sure. I'm taking a moment and I will help her in just a little bit.” And so he talks to her a little bit. 


And then later, I say, “Hey, I noticed that you're having a really hard time. And everything seems really hard today, and I'm wondering if it might be because you're still really caught up on what happened yesterday.” And she says in her like, big like, catching her breath, “That's it. I'm just really sad. I'm really having a really hard time focusing on anything.” That's an in-the-moment plan. “Okay, I can see you're having a hard time today. Let's take school easy. Let's focus on taking our breaths, on stretching, on getting answers we need.” Because she had questions about ballet, and I said, “Would you like me to talk to your teacher?” “Yes, I would.” 


So now we're three days later, and yesterday I go to her and I say, “Hey, are you in a good headspace right now?” She's 11, by the way. And she goes, “What for?” And I said, “Well, I want to talk about ballet.” And she goes, “Is it good or bad?” And I said, “Well, I don't know how you're going to take it. So are you in a good headspace?” And she goes, “Yeah, I can handle a conversation right now.” And I said, “Okay, even if it doesn't go your way?” And she said, “Yeah, I have enough…” like she didn't use the word, “capacity,” but “Yeah, I can do this.” 


So we sit down on the couch. I talked to her about what I found out from her teacher. I talked to her about the options. I talked to her about classes. We talk about what we would do if she gets to class and she isn't enjoying it, what to do if she doesn't know anybody, how she can work to go to the next level, all these different things. Now we're ahead-of-the-moment planning. Now we're pushing to that next level of okay, how do we push, what do we do? 


And then even later, she comes to me last night, and she goes, “I'd like to add to my daily routine, practicing and stretching so that I can start working towards that next level.” So now she's working on routines, agreements, boundaries, all those things that so many people start to jump to. 


So that's kind of, I hope this is a good example. I was just taking something that literally just happened this week for me, so that parents can see. One example that someone shared once is, if you're standing on the edge of a cliff, that is not the time to be like, “You know what I think you should try…” that's not the moment to try something new. But when you're further back on land and you are safe, that's the time to like, “Hey, why don't you try skipping? Why don't you try jumping? You feel safer. You have more capacity for it. 


21:57  Leslie:  Absolutely.


[Music: Fresh Air by Olexy]


22:12  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  You've been listening to parents on Is My Child A Monster?, and now it's your turn. We're looking for parents and caregivers to join me on Season Three. We'd love to hear from all kinds of families with kids between ages 4 and 18. There's no problem too big or too small. If you'd like to volunteer for some free parenting therapy and are comfortable sharing your sessions publicly—with all names changed, of course—please visit ismychildamonster.com and fill out an application to come on the show


22:53  Leslie:  As a DBT intensively trained therapist, a lot of what you're saying—you're nodding your head—is very similar to the idea that when we recognize someone—you're calling it the storm—is an emotion mind. That's not the time that we are going to push someone. We use a lot of validation. Validation is an acceptance strategy that you're describing. So it's so wonderful to hear that there's the acceptance of the moment. It's so easy, because parents can have their own reactions. And we don't want to be reactive, we want to be responsive. 


So you go, you take that drink, you relax, you take a breath, so that you can then acknowledge, accept, validate where they are. Because sometimes, and I bet you know this, sometimes that's all we need. Because sometimes that's what the child is looking for, is that sense of connection and “Somebody knows what's going on with me.” And so sometimes I say, let's not work harder than we need to. We're working hard enough as parents. So if that works, that's fantastic. And then you went to, you it called stage two, where now you're in that position to be able to push, expose your child to some challenges, talk about them, engage them. And you said something that I'd love to point out, which is what's going to happen if you get upset,if we have this conversation? I love pointing out—I call it the obstacles—like, what's going to happen? What obstacles are going to show up if we have this conversation?


24:17  Dayna:  We call that the Oops Plan. So you come up with all these plans, but you got to have a plan for when your plan doesn't work, because we all know we can come up with the best plans. And the other thing about plans is they're not one-and-done. And I have seen this over my years of working with parents. I have seen it over and over and over again. “I tried that and it didn't work. So you throw the whole plan away, and then you go to a new plan. 


And that is why parents are so overwhelmed, so stressed out. And they are feeling like they're not trusting themselves, instead of saying, “All right, how can I look at this like a scientist?” I loved science growing up, and so for me, it's: what are the variables in this situation? And what can I test? I'm going to change one variable and see if it makes a difference, and then next time I'm going to change another variable. 


And that's why I love the framework, because the framework is: you connect, understand, empower. And so if my mindset piece, my anchor, I'm using, or my mindset swap isn't working to keep me calm, that's the thing I'm going to change. If the way that I'm talking to my kid is not working, I'm going to change that piece. If I'm not quite understanding where things are coming from, I'm going to take a step back, and I'm going to try to dig in further and try to solve or meet that need. 


And then for the plan, I might say, “Oh, we had a plan for how we were going to go to the first day of dance, but we didn't have a plan for you're having a surgery next week. What are we going to do?” And so then we had to come up with another plan. Or, “What are we going to do if you get to the end of the week? And these too many classes?” So lots of what if plans and then being flexible. 


And you said something earlier about, “I can't give in.” Parents are so worried that “I can't give in.” And I think we need to be flexible as parents, and say, “You know what? I set this routine, I set this boundary, and I can see it's too hard for you. Let's take it a step back.” Right now. I'm in the middle of training for a half marathon, I've lost my mind, and I've decided that that's what I'm going to do, and it is hard. It's one of the hardest physical things that I've done in a very, very long time. And I am in the slowest group, which is also very hard for me. I'm not used to being the back of the pack, and so I am in like, the walk group, sometimes jog group. And there are times that my trainer will say, “You know what, I want you to finish, and I want you to love it. I want you to enjoy it. I want you to keep wanting to come back every week. And right now you're getting to the end of our two miles, and you are so winded and you're dizzy, I want you to go back and I want you to do one minute of run and then four minutes of walk, one minute of run, four minutes of walk. Let's tweak this plan.” 


But if that trainer had come to me and said, “This is the plan, you’ve got to stick with it. You’ve got to stick with it,” I might give up. And so as parents, we have to do the same thing. We have to have that knowing and understanding and be a coach for our kids. “So you know what? I thought you were able to do more, and right now is not the time. Let's take it a step back. It's totally okay. We'll get there.” Or, “You know what? I told you that if you did that again, that I was going to take this away. And I'm taking it for now, but I've thought about it, and after this, let's work on a plan so that we actually don't have that problem in the future.”


28:08  Leslie:  And I'm going to say something obvious, because what you're saying is so important for parents to hear. And what you're saying is this: flexible thinking as not about giving in or losing the battle or anything like that. It's about really thinking again. And what I want to say, which is so obvious people may miss it, is that now if you have flexible thinking, your child's going to model that flexible thinking. You are making a difference in the long run. 


And one of the greatest things to teach children and adults alike is how to think flexibly. So when you're thinking, “I'm giving in, and now I'm a terrible parent,” you can say, “No, I'm actually modeling for my child what flexible thinking is. How I can say, I've reconsidered, and these are my reasons.” But the idea that you can be flexible will model for your children that they can be flexible. And you can even point it out, which is, “I just practiced my flexible thinking. I am a big person. I notice it and name it. Notice it and name it. That's how we learn. 


29:11  Dayna:  A hundred percent. I tell parents all the time, kids don't have metacognition. And that's a big word, but it just means thinking about thinking. And so we have to think out loud. And when we think out loud, then we're more aware of what we're doing, then our kids have a language for what they're doing. 


And earlier I said a lot of the advice jumps to: How do I help my kids self regulate? How do I get my kids to stop doing what they're doing before they ever do it? Before you can self-regulate, you have to be self-aware. And if you're not self-aware, then you can't self-regulate. But kids learn self-awareness by watching us talk out the things we're going through and say, “Hey, I noticed,” and I know you use this language a lot, but, “I noticed that last time we went to ballet, it was really,really easy for you, and this time, it's really hard. And I'm wondering what's different between the two. Where do you feel it? What's going on in your head? What are you thinking? What are you worried about? What are you excited about? Let's talk through that.” And that is where you're going to find the gold is just slowing it down and really saying,”Okay, let's be a little bit more flexible here.” 


The other piece that I would say is I see a lot of parents wanting to jump to the end result really quickly, meaning they'll come to me and they'll say, “My kid has extremely aggressive meltdowns. What do I do? They need to stop.” And they won't be able to see that the first plan you're going for is that you're able to stay calm during those aggressive meltdowns. Those aggressive meltdowns are not going to go away in a day. I tell people you cannot Amazon Prime parenting. It does not come just like overnight. It takes time. And so, yeah, you got to look for these little, tiny pieces and little, tiny progress; and that means that maybe you're remaining calm. 


One of my parents just said, this morning I was on a coaching call with her, and she goes, “Okay, I have a little win.” She said, “My husband was really upset, and in his upset, he broke something. And this morning I just went, ‘Oops. That's a mistake. We'll get another one.’” She goes, “Normally, I would have yelled at him and been like, ‘Why can't we have nice things? What is wrong with you?’” He's still getting upset. She could be frustrated that they're not at a place where the whole house is calm, but you have to focus on those tiny, incremental changes. And that's, again, where that roadmap comes in place. “Can I ride the storm? Can I get my energy back? Can I show up kindly and compassionately in the moment? Can I work with my kid? Okay, we're making progress.”


31:52  Leslie:  And all of those steps are huge. So, like you said, the small wins. There are so many pieces. You've put the you piece in the middle, you're saying, “Let's start with what we can control.” And I just want to have a lot of compassion and a lot of respect for all of us as parents, because that job is so…my worst moments have been in parenting, and we just…


32:17  Dayna:  Kids put a mirror up to us, right? And they remind us of things that either we didn't have, or things that happened to us, or things that…you know, if our kid talks back to us and we feel like we've never had a voice, then that can be incredibly triggering for us; to have a child who feels like they can say whatever they want, and yet, our whole life, we haven't been able to say anything. And so there's so much complexity that comes into raising any child, let alone a child that doesn't fit the What-to-Expect-When-You're-Expecting timeline and milestones of raising a kid.


32:56  Leslie:  And I want to have a segue here. I finished a series with a family recently where what they were dealing with is common for many parents. I think you'll relate to this. So many parents have fear that when they're raising their neurodivergent child, they're really worried and afraid, “How will my child make it as an adult?” And so you've talked about the need for this slow understanding that parenting is a long term investment, that we are taking it step-by-step. But what would you say to parents who have such fear raising neurodivergent children? Because A) it could be your first time raising, and B) you may not have the experience to know, “How is this going to work?”


33:47  Dayna:  Well, the good news is, the world is changing. As we speak, the world is changing. So you and I both talked about how when we were growing up, we didn't know that we were neurodivergent. No one talked to me about ADHD, or about my anxiety, or about why I had ruminating thoughts, or why I was so sensitive to everyone else's emotions around me. There was nothing about that, let alone the childhood drama that I'm still also healing from and working through. And the cool part is that we don't live in the same world that we lived in when we were growing up. Your kids will not live in the same world that they're currently in. And so there are little changes happening. 


No one knew what neurodivergent was when I started raising my kid. No one was saying that. That was just 19 years ago. And so we are getting more acceptance in the schooling. We are getting more acceptance in the workplace. Covid did us a really big favor and opened up the door to a lot of remote jobs so that your children don't have to grow up and go to college in a big university with lots of different classes and lots of different people. They can go to school remotely, or they could not do college. So the world is opening up in so many ways. 


And then here's the other thing: they have you as a guide. So they have you, now, to make the mistakes, to struggle, so that you can find out: Where are you struggling in life? Where are things hard? So that we can create systems that make it easier for you, so that you know how and why you do the things you do, so you can advocate for those things. So you're raising your child while developing these skills all along the way. 


And I would say, extend your timeline. My 19-year-old still lives with me. My 19 year old is not in college. My 19-year-old barely leaves his room. So to many people listening to this, they might think that I'm a failure as a parent, and honestly, there are days where I'm like, “Am I doing enough for him?” But this is the kid who was kicked out of every school he ever went to. He is incredibly bright and smart and has a lot of intelligence, but his social skills are that of an 11-year-old. You would never ask an 11-year-old to go live on their own. You would never ask an 11-year-old to go get a job. But yet, because he's living in a 19-year-old's body, then he has these 19-year-old expectations. And so if you're raising a neurodivergent child, adjust your timeline, adjust your expectations, and just continue to be that coach and guide along the side.


36:26  Leslie:  The coach and guide—lovely. I love that as a job description as a parent, because, yes, I've said we don't need to fix them. But they do need, as we spoke about, someone who can help bridge the environment and who they are, so they can create, eventually, by advocating for themselves that environment. So it is tough being a parent of a neurodivergent child when you have your peers maybe talking about their kids going off to college or looking for a place to live on their own and things like that. And advocating for your child, and just understanding that the uniqueness allows diversity, respect for differences, to really, to embrace that, and that is one of the positive things that has been coming out. Because being different was bad. Now, different is different. That's all—different is unique.


37:24  Dayna:  Well, you still have a long way to go. Don't get me started on the policies and things that need to change. However, it is getting better. And there are lots of opportunities, and it's helping your child figure out where they do fit, what works for them.


37:42  Leslie:  Exactly. Well, beautiful. Is there anything else that you might want to share for our listeners, that you didn't get to say already that you might want to share with the listeners? 


37:56  Dayna:  Well, you kind of started the whole episode with it, but I don't like to go on any podcast without letting parents know that are listening to this: You are exactly the parent that your child needs. You are not failing. They are not broken, and you are definitely not alone. I know it can feel like that, listening to this in your car, in your bedroom, or wherever you are right now, on your way to work. And it feels like you're the only one in your circle who is going through the challenges you're going through. I want you to know that there is a world of people out there who understand you and accept you and your family just as they are.


38:31  Leslie:  Well, when you just said that, my whole body relaxed. I really relaxed when your words of, “You are exactly the parent your child needs.” I was like, “Oh, thank you.” It's like my body said, “Thank you.” So keep saying what you're saying, and tell us where people can find you.


38:54  Dayna:  Absolutely. So you can find me on any social channel, at Calm The Chaos Parenting. You can also find me on my podcast at Calm The Chaos Parenting. And then if you want any of my books, especially Calm The Chaos, the book, you can go to anywhere where books are sold.


39:08  Leslie:  Okay, well, Dayna, thank you so much. It's just been a pleasure, and I feel like we could keep talking, because you have a lot of knowledge, a lot of information, and we'll just remember that slow-and-steady, because it's not a race. We've got all the time we need.


39:28  Dayna:  Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. This has been lovely.


39:31  Leslie:  Thank you.


[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]


39:39  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  I want to thank Dayna Abraham again for joining me. If you want more information about her Calm The Chaos framework, you can find links in the show notes. Today, we focused on neurodivergent kids, but it's bigger than that. I believe what you heard today is something you can apply to any and all of your children. Neurodivergent kids are not the only kids who get upset or have big emotions. 


We need to pay attention to all of our kids in our family, not just the ones with big emotions. Their needs may be different and parenting strategies may be different, but the framework can be applied to all children. I've got resources about neurodiversity in the show notes, including a video and links to other episodes where we touch on this topic. 


Next week, we have a returning client from Season One. Mary is back this season to talk about how to help her son adjust to the many changes he is facing, including a new school and a new sibling. Perfect timing as the school year gets underway and many of your kids are adjusting to big changes in their lives.


Subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts; and please rate and review to help spread the word. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for listening. And this week, keep in mind something that Dayna said: The first step to help yourself and your child is to ride out the storm.


Transcribed by Eric Rubury