Is My Child A Monster? A Parenting Therapy Podcast

Mary Part 1 of 3: When Your Kid Hates Change

• Leslie Cohen-Rubury • Season 2 • Episode 62

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Dealing with change can sometimes feel like ripping off a bandaid. Change is stressful, whether you are five or 55; and people respond to those changes in all different ways. And it is especially challenging when you are someone who likes structure, order, and predictability. In today’s episode Leslie explores this topic with Mary.  We met Mary last season when she was seeking support around grief and sleep for her then four-year-old-son, Oliver. Things have changed in Oliver's world, and that's why Mary’s back. The past year has been full of transitions and adjustments for Oliver and his family. Starting a new school year and having a new baby in the home are some of those changes that most parents can relate to. 

Time Stamps

4:37 Change is the only constant and children respond to those changes in many different ways. School, new siblings, caregivers all create change in family life.

8:13 Assess your child’s behavior as they respond to changes

12:04 Adjustments can feel scary, frustrating or full of unknowns

12:53 Reestablishing his sense of safety, connection and groundedness

16:60 Parents want things to go right, and be right.  Adjustments are often “messy moments”

17:15 Buddhist phrase:  no mud, no lotus

19:18 The child needs validation AND the parent needs validation, and that’s so hard

20:30 Anxiety often underlies the No’s, the opposition, the resistance, and the rigidity

21:27 Don’t ask WHY questions.  Make a few statements to choose from

22:10 For nail biting, avoid saying “don’t do that” and instead suggest what else the child can do with their hands.

26:57 Part of a parent’s job is to guide their child through the unknown

31:57 When your child says “no,” unpack that no with them. YES AND approach for the child who doesn’t want to hear a NO

32:40 Teach your child that feelings come and go. Create anchors for the anxious child

37:15 Help your child Balance out the knowns and the unknowns, the predictable and the unpredictable. 


Leslie-ism: You can be an anchor for your child in the sea of change. 

Resources



For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]


0:03  Mary:  So he's biting his nails all the way down, and he's taking off the skin. We saw it as anxiety, but besides saying, “Oliver, take your hands out of your mouth, take your hands out of your mouth,” I don't really know what to do about that.


0:22   Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  Change is stressful, whether you are five or 55; and people respond to those changes in all different ways. The nail biting, like all behaviors, is communication, and in this case, it's communication about change. What happens when you are someone who likes structure, order, and predictability? If that's you or your child, then the changes will be stressful. There's no getting around that. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting therapy podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in therapy sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster. 


Today is the first of three sessions with Mary. We met Mary last season when she was seeking support around grief and sleep for her then four-year-old-son, Oliver. Things have changed in Oliver's world, and that's why Mary’s back. The past year has been full of transitions and adjustments for Oliver and his family. He's got a new baby brother, James, a new school, and new adults to get used to, and he's having a hard time. Parents and caregivers all over the world deal with changes, both big and small, on a constant basis. And this time of year, with the start of school, can be especially challenging. The foundation that helps kids and parents manage change is the same, no matter their age. And in today's session, we really focus on how to build that foundation. 


Okay, now as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed, and this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. So let's begin. 


2:23  Leslie:  Hi, Mary. It's really good to see you. How are you today?


2:26  Mary:  Good, thank you.


2:27  Leslie:  The last time we saw each other was about a year ago, and Oliver was really having difficulty with sleep. You had a loss in the family, and we discussed sleep issues, anxiety, and things like that. So I'm going to let you start, because you can start from there, or just where you are today, a year later.


2:46  Mary:  Yeah, since we last spoke, a lot has changed. We now have a second child in the home. So the baby is just four months at this moment. And so Oliver is now five, and we've kind of been doing so much transition this summer. The baby came the day before his beloved preschool ended. And then we launched right into summer, which is, you know, a week on with one caregiver, family coming in, camp starting; and then this looming new kindergarten change also that was coming up. So for Oliver, we've just been watching so many changes and so many challenges go on for him. And there's nothing we can really do to change the fact that he is a big brother and now he's at a much bigger school and has to start all over with friends. And he's leaving his beloved teachers, who he was with for two years, and his best friends behind. So it's like, all right, just ripping all the band-aids off at once. “This is the new world for you.”


And we've also had a new caregiver start in our house. It's a little bit more settled at this moment, but I already see some more big changes coming up with caregivers, coming up on the horizon even sooner than we anticipated. And I guess the word right is adjustment and change, which I know is the only constant, as it's always said. Change is the only constant, and it's hard for him. It's really hard for him.


4:46  Leslie:  Okay, so you use the expression—I just want to go back to that—you said, “...ripping off a band-aid.” That doesn't feel good, when we rip off a band-aid. I'm curious: is it that you’re noticing that's the feeling he might be having, or is that the feeling you're having as he goes through all these changes, or both?


5:07  Mary:  Well, I noticed when we were even in the process of of school decision, I was almost feeling for myself, “Do we keep Oliver in the same school for me, because it is such a huge adjustment also for me to start a new relationship with the whole community, start the new system, new kids, new families, new teachers. And then we were like, No: it's just going to be change. It's just going to be a lot of change. And that's what's going to work better for the family, is this transition. 


So I feel like it's a lot, for sure, because I'm home with the baby, I'm kind of out of touch, often. My husband is doing a little bit more of the drop-offs. My caregiver is doing more of the pickups, because I'm sort of in breastfeeding, napping, you know, non-structured baby time. And that's just what makes sense, is that I'm with the baby; and I also think for him. I think for Oliver, the baby comes unpredictably. Like, “Baby’s coming at this time,” and how it's going to happen. And that,  I think, was a big surprise, because the baby was a little bit early, and I was also thinking, I'm going to go late. 


And our relationship really shifting during the pregnancy—I was the main person after school for so long—dropping him off, picking him up, “Let's go here. Let's go there,” having energy. And even during the pregnancy, our relationship really shifted, because I was feeling tired and my partner was doing more weekend stuff. And, you know, “I don't want to play that way. I don't want to play rough, I don't want to wrestle. I don't want to go on the trampoline with you,” because I can't, you know? 


So that was the first shift, I think, and we're still sort of working through that change. He likes structure. He's a good child who likes structure and routine, and that's a tool for him, because he has a really strong brain, a really strong mind, and asks a lot of questions and wants to know what's next. And so front loading, and telling him often, “Okay, this is the plan,” or “On Wednesdays, you're going to go to the library,” or whatever it is—it anchors him. 


And normally we've gotten the feedback that he is quite flexible, that he's not inflexible in that. But during this transition, it's been more “No’s”, like, “I don't want to do that. No, I don't want to go with…” Especially the caregivers, it seems to be where a lot of the resistance has been. We had an old caregiver that's been with us for three years, with him when I was in labor, and you know, if it's not like bowling and ice cream, he won't go.


7:56  Leslie:  So you've named the external changes. You've named a little bit of the way his brain works. You talk about a strong brain. You talk about predictability, structure, wanting to be front-loaded, wanting to know what's going on. Those are great assessments of what we need to consider. One more piece of the assessment that I want to know is, what's his behavior? What are you seeing?


8:23  Mary:  Well, I would say, very resistant to go with someone who is not my husband or myself, which would not normally be the case. Like, less wanting to be out of the home, which has not been my experience with Oliver. Oliver loves to do things, wants to go places. Now, really wants to come home and is feeling much more attached to me. One time he came home, it was a half day, the caregiver got him. I was out on a walk, and he ran down the block screaming and looking for me. I was going to be home in a half hour. I texted the caregiver, “I'm going on a walk. I'm putting the baby down for a nap.” 


So feeling unstable, feeling insecure, feeling home, really wanting to be home, more obstinate, more no's, more no's coming. And that's not usually how he is. He's very… wanting to be in life. “I want to go do that. I want to go do that. I want to go do that.” And now it's sort of like he's calculating, “Okay, well, if it's this, I'll do it, or it's, “I won't do it this way.” So controlling, more no's, and then definitely more upsets, more frustrations, and then also, usually at the caregivers. 


He is also very emotionally aware and intelligent, also, because we work with him on that. So he has language of like, “I'm feeling stressed and overwhelmed,” is literally what he told me the other day. It's really what he told me. But he can’t control himself all the time, but he has more capacity, I think. I mean, or it's just the overwhelm of the change that comes out, and it's pulling hair of the caregiver when they're playing rough. But like he went too far, you know, kind of thing, and really ripped. Or feeling frustrated and really going in and hitting another caregiver, which is just really not quite him…not that he doesn't have outbursts at home with us—I feel like that's a little different. 


So, yeah, more frustration. I think I'll also describe it as a low tolerance for frustration. We actually drew the graph and we said, “Okay, we made it colors,” and to try to help him track the amount of overwhelm, just kind of getting overwhelmed really quickly. 


10:50  Leslie:  Wow. Okay, so one of the things you keep saying, you've said a few times, is: it's not quite like him to do this. It's not like him to be resistant. It's not like him to want to be home, because he wants to grab life, wants to seek new experiences and all that. I want to be careful with, This is not like quite like him, because that is the part that makes it really hard for parents to understand what's going on. This is his response. This is his response to all of those adjustments. 


So is it interesting that we look and take a pause to say, “Huh? Interesting response.” So here he has a new baby brother. He's got a new school, he's got new friends, he's got a new mommy who does different things. It's not the mommy:  you're not quite the same, you know. He's probably saying, “Wait a minute, Mom is not quite the same person I know.” 


And so with all of the newness, for a child who likes predictability and front-load, how does he express? This doesn't surprise me, because he's trying to express, there's a lot of adjustment that I don't get. And it might be scary, it might be frustrating, it might be just dealing with a lot of unknowns. 


So if we're dealing with unknowns, how do we help a child who's so hungry and desires that kind of predictability? How do we help him really feel grounded? He tells you. He gave you the answer, “I want to be home and I want to find Mommy. I want to be connected. I want to be really needy right now so that I am reassured that what was safe before is still safe.” So he's just reestablishing. I think he's just trying to reestablish that sense of safety, security, groundedness. 


12:53  Mary:  Yeah—I think there's something there. So, just last week, he had Covid. You know, I always keep talking, like, what's the gift of Covid, everyone? You reflect, you're alone, whatever. And it was really good for us. It was really good for our family, because the baby's four months, so now he understands what it means when I say, “Okay, have to go put the baby for a nap. Okay? You have to be quiet. Okay?” Or, you know, “What are you going to do?” It's not this kind of alarm signal, “Aaahhh!  I have to stop the game in the middle! I can't handle it!” 


And also, us just being more connected, like I miss him. I do. I miss him, and…


13:37  Leslie:  …he misses you. 


13:39  Mary:  …yeah. My hands are full, yes, and my hands are, and it's like my hands are tied behind my back, because I'm the breast milk, you know.? And it's hard. So I would love…and so it was good for us, that time was good for us. And we were sensing that. We were thinking about this—my partner and I—and he was just like, “He just needs some time with us,” and grounded this. And, yeah, so we did have a good time with that. 


But the needs are still there for him to go with said person,, to do something outside of the house, because I can't take him to the park where all his friends are going after school all the time; you know, that kind of thing. So it's a yes, and game, where we're trying to work together to meet his needs. And he's really doing so much work to adjust. 


14:35  Leslie:  I also just want to assess when you're spending time with the baby—you're doing the primary work there—is there any time that you will leave the baby with your partner or the caregiver so that you can do something with him? Is there some of that as well? 


14:52  Mary:  Yes. 


14:53  Leslie:  Okay. Just wanted to check in on that. So, he's adjusting, you're adjusting. And where is the struggle? Where is the difficulty for you? Is it that it feels like it's taking too long? Because adjustment is, by definition, a period of time where things are different. Things are going to be changing in this period of transition and adjustment. So help me understand. What are your concerns?


15:27  Mary:  I think the word rigidity has been, you know, that it's, “No. No, I don't want to do that. No, I don't want to do that.” And it takes a lot of output for the parents, for us to walk him through everything that has to happen, because sometimes we just want to say, “Okay, this is what's happening.” I can't always anticipate changes are coming, or whatever it is.


15:56  Leslie:  Boy, that's like walking into a wall and that doesn't feel good. But when your child says no to you, and you're working so hard to front-load him and do this and do that, it's exhausting. I don't have any answers for you. [Laughter] Here's the good news, and the bad news. Parenting is the hardest job I know of. I was kidding when I said I don't have any answers for you, but I wasn't kidding. The truth is, you're going to get those no's, and you are going to be frustrated to your brink, to the edge. You are going to work hard. You're going to want to…you try things, you try different things, and some things just don't go smoothly. 


So I wonder if you have a little bit of that desire yourself for things to go smoothly, look good, feel good. You're no different than any other parent. I want things to go right, do right, be right. It's like, “Aaahhh, can I just have those beautiful parenting moments?” Right? You're nodding your head. We all want that. We all want that. And these are the messy moments. 


I'm going to repeat a Buddhist phrase that's, I think, beautiful: No mud, no lotus. The beautiful, beautiful lotus flower grows out of mud. Parenting, and seeing our children bloom and grow, is going to come from messy times, as well as the other sunny days and other beautiful moments. But there are going to be those muddy, messy days. Do you expect them? Do you know how to tolerate them? And do you know how to convey that, “Ugh, this is a messy moment. Hey, bud, it's not easy for you. It's not easy for me. We can do this. We can get through messy moments. Let's call them a messy moment.” 


Messy moments are fun. That's what messy moments can be great. They can produce beautiful artwork. They can produce fun activities. So you're nodding your head again, because it's nice to know that, “Oh, that is validating to know that, yes, it is going to be messy.”


18:19  Mary:  Yeah. I'm reflecting, one night when I put Oliver to sleep, he just looked at me and he said, “Mama, why is it so hard for us in the evenings and in the mornings? Why is it just so hard?” He kind of put his hands up like that, and, “It's really hard right now.” I just said, “It is. You're right. The baby's not sleeping through the night. We're tired, we're going through a lot of changes.” I just validated. I was like, “You're right, it's really hard.” 


And when he says, “I'm overwhelmed and I'm stressed,” and that kind of thing, I'm like, “Yeah, it's overwhelming. This is hard.” It's just exhausting, and so the resistance and the rigidity around wanting it his way is just hard. It's just hard right now,


19:09  Leslie:  Just as you validate him, and he says it's hard, and then you validate him—that's what I want to do for you. I want to validate, yes, it is hard. It's hard and it's messy. And let's talk about a few little strategies for the child that wants to play the same game, doesn't want to say no, but says no. 


19:32  Mary:  I forgot to mention this part, but as he's adjusting, he's biting his nails now. This is a very new behavior that we have just seen. So he's biting his nails all the way down, and he's biting his thumb down and taking off the skin. So we've seen it at home. And then when his teacher sent photos, he's got his thumb in his mouth, and he's biting his nails. So, I mean, he's a big thinker, reads about a natural disaster, wants to know if the natural disaster can happen here, where does it happen. He's just thinking. And he has anxiety. So we did talk to the teacher about maybe something else he could fidget with, or like a fidget toy. But besides saying, “Oliver, take your hands out of your mouth, take your hands out of your mouth,” I don't really know what to do about that.


20:27  Leslie:  Well, that was a perfect interruption, because here I am talking about his resistance, his opposition, his rigidity, and you brought in—which I often talk about—the anxiety that is usually underlying all that rigidity. So when he says, “No, I don't want to go out. No, I don't want to do this,” I want you to put on that thinking cap yourself and say, “Is there anxiety under that “no”? What is that “no” trying to tell me? And, “No, I don't want to go out,” I might say to him, “No, I don't want to go out, or I'd love to go out, but I want Mommy to be with me? I want to feel secure at home. How do I go out and feel like I'm at home at the same time?” 


I know it sounds funny, but the truth is, he wants the security of being home and the adventure of going out. We don't know what he's saying no to. And usually that no—and you can ask, is that no…Don't ask, “Why are you saying no?” Why's don't work. But you can ask by giving him two or three choices. “Are you saying no, I don't want to go out? Are you saying no, I want to stay home and be with you? Are you saying, no, I don't know what we're going to do, I'm scared about what we're going to do?” So you might give him a few concrete choices. 


But the fact that you brought up the anxiety and this nail biting, the idea of giving him some fidgets is a very good idea. And then again, I would not highlight the, “Get your hands out of your mouth. Get your hands out of your mouth.” That's actually reinforcing, that he's paying attention to it. But you can be mindful to your hands. “Can you put your hands on the desk?” So instead of saying, “Get your hands out of your mouth,” tell him what to do with his hands. “Can you put your hands on the desk?” Now, do you see that at home, or is it only at school” 


22:26  Mary:  We see it. We do not as much, not as much. And it's definitely come on in the new school environment, it seems. And it was a hard transition for him to just  jump into that environment and make new friends, and totally different. Now he's a little bit got, “All right, I know on Wednesdays I have PE,” or whatever. But in the beginning, I think that's when it really started, because he was feeling really uncertain about starting kindergarten in this new school.


23:01  Leslie:  Okay, makes sense. There's the anxiety—it's brand new, and oral is a place of security, so his hands are going in his mouth. We don't want to take his security away. He might do well with a security object. That's what a teddy bear is. And I know schools don't allow some of these things from home, but maybe something small, maybe a little heart from you that's in his pocket, something that you can actually pair security, home, comfort, safe space: now he's taking it with him. So it's a little external still, but that's what we want to help him understand. We're not going to change that. He's going to have that insecurity or that anxiety, because it is an unknown and he is a thinker. I'm putting just all the pieces together that you're telling me—you said he's such a thinker. 


[Music: Acoustic Motivation by Coma-Media]


24:07  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  You've been listening to parents on Is My Child A Monster? and now it's your turn. We're looking for parents and caregivers to join me on Season Three. We'd love to hear from all kinds of families with kids between ages four and 18. There's no problem too big or too small. If you'd like to volunteer for some free parenting help, and are comfortable sharing your sessions publicly with all names changed, of course, please visit ismychildamonster.com to apply.


24:47  Leslie:  So can I introduce a new idea? And I don't think we've talked about it before. So, neurodiversity is that our brains, everyone's brain, is different. There's just like there are many, many plants out in the ecosystem, there are many, many brains in the human population. And we have gotten away from some pathological labels—ADHD being a label and autistic brain—and we're turning these things around so that we are more affirming in the language we use around different brains. 


You just said he's a strong thinker. He's a big thinker. There are clinical ways of describing what you're describing, and a psychologist could assess that and give you more detailed information. But from a more general point of view, neurodiversity says we want to respect his brain. And for children, when we don't get it, or we see big reactions, like the intense nail biting, and he goes into an environment. 


There's this guy that I've heard speak. I really like him. His name is Luke Bearden. He's from the UK: educator, advocate. And he talks about the fact that a lot of children who maybe are autistic or just have a different brain than the neurotypical kid who goes in and they have the easy going time of adjusting and making friends and being in new environments. The children who feel more sensitive, whatever they actually are responding to the environment with anxiety. They may not be anxious kids, but in an environment where they don't understand everything, it's not predictable, it's not familiar. It is new. And they know. He sounds rather intelligent and he knows what's expected of him, but it's all new. “How do I do this thing called school? I understand it, but I don't know what to do.” It's a real dilemma for him. 


And so that disconnect is anxiety, and that anxiety is being expressed through the nail biting. So part of our job as parents is to help guide him and say, “When you go into a new environment, there are a lot of unknowns. Your brain wants to figure it out. Your brain wants to know.” You might say, “We read the same book, we play the same game. Many children are very similar, where they want the same book over and over. Well, when you go to a new school, nothing's the same.” So I want to educate him about his brain and let him know that the environment is tricky for him, and every day that he goes, he knows it a little bit better. He's going to know it a little bit more. 


And so you can almost make a drawing where he sees, “Oh, wow, I went to school and I got used to these things, and now I go again, and now I got used to these things again.” So maybe talking about some of the things that are familiar. “Did you have read-aloud-time?” “When you go to school today, what two things can you expect to happen?” So that he's looking for his anchors. 


I just think the hands are going to go up and down, the hands in his mouth and the biting is going to go up and down as he goes through his life. When he's really stressed and overwhelmed, which he already understands, it's going to get worse, and he can say, “Huh, I'm in a situation that feels new to me. Where can I ground myself?” And we can start teaching him about how his brain works and how he adjusts to new situations from an early age. Does that make sense? I just said a lot. Let me slow down, give you a moment.


28:39  Mary:  Yeah, I think it's, I would describe Oliver as extremely intelligent, extremely sensitive child. And I think it's definitely right that he would like to know, “What are the expectations? Where do my things go? How does this work? What do you want me to do?” Because he excels in a school environment. He is just very good at that. He loves it. He loves school. For him, I think because he is diverse in his thinking and his mind, he's looking for someone who he can talk to, and really talk about, you know, what do you, like, a lot of talking. [Laughter]


29:23  Leslie: Yes.


29:25  Mary:  And that's what he wants to do. And not every kindergartner is like that. It's just different. So I think also just trying to figure out, “Okay, who can I vibe with, and how…?” Because he also has a physical…loves to play soccer, loves to be roughhousing, loves to be silly, wacky. But he also really wants to talk about life. You know, “What's going on with your house? What's going on with my house?” So I think there's something in the new environment. And also with new people, which I think is, like, something with the caregivers. Also, it's like, “Okay, this caregiver is not Mom, it's not Dad. We're not going to play the trampoline popcorn game the same way, but that's okay. We're still playing.” 


30:14  Leslie:  Is it okay with him? Because it probably isn't. 


30:17  Mary:  No, no, no. He wants to play the same way every time. And that's really hard, because you're trying to, “What do you want me to do? How do you want me to do it?” You know, that kind of thing. “Well, I don't want to do that, or I can't do that because I'm postpartum, or I have a baby in my arms, or I'm pregnant,” or write X, Y and Z for me, right? I've been the “No,” I'm the one who's been saying, “Sorry, I can't do that. I can't do that. You know, I'm tired, I'm…” whatever. 


30:43  Leslie:  That's beautiful. So when you have to say no, we can almost turn it into “yes, and.” “Yes, I want to play with you, and jumping on a trampoline doesn't work for me.” “Yes, your babysitter can play this game with you, and I bet she has some new ways of playing the game.” So we want to expose him to differences and change, but we have to take it easy. Our expectations are that he's got to go slow and steady and easy with change. That's why you saw the hands all of a sudden go in his mouth, because there were so many changes all at once. 


And that's okay, biting his nails–he's not the first. I mean, I am so proud of myself that at 63 years old, I can look down and see nails for the first time—I bit my nails my whole life. Because I didn't feel nervous as an adult when I'm sitting working with clients, but my hands in my mouth always let me know. I'd say, “Wow, there must be a lot going on in my life. Let me take a moment and look at what else is going on.” It is going to be information for him. 


And like I said, when he says, No, let's unpack the No. “Hey, what are you saying no to? What part of it can we say yes?” Break it down so it's not an all or nothing, “No, I won't go out.” “Huh. Will you go out and take my scarf with you?” When you come home, I am going to put the baby down and I am going to find out what three things were your favorite part of going out,” so you can help him find some strategies for breaking down the No. 


So sometimes the no is…he's got to go, right? Because, let's say you're leaving the house and he doesn't want you to go, but you're leaving—point blank, there's no staying right? And actually staying longer can make it worse. So we want to say, “I'm leaving, and this is a feeling that's going to come and go. You're really upset right now. You don't want me to go. And I'm going to check back with you when I come home and ask you how long that feeling lasted. That feeling's going to come and go.” So we want to help him understand that feelings are a part of him, not all of him, and that, in the no, there may be a part that he can say yes to. 


33:05  Mary:  When we introduced the window of tolerance and kind of drew it, he really latched on to that. And he'd say, “Mama…, because he'd always hear me saying, “I'm tired. I can't do it, or I'm…” “Mama, what color are you, and where do you think you are here?” And I use some of your language, “Okay, you're in your emotional mind, and you're not in your thinking mind.” And he loves that, he loves that. He uses it. It grounds him, it helps him. 


It's a practice for us as a family to use it consistently. I think that's what happens are in these apex moments where, “Okay, draw out the graph,” or whatever. But how we could really continue to use it, so he could have it more readily available, just to to notice himself, like what you're talking about, the feelings


33:58  Leslie:  Beautiful. The only thing, I'm going to give you a little warning here, a don't-try-this-at-home warning. The warning is, you are teaching him beautiful life strategies for emotional regulation, emotional awareness, all of that, emotional intelligence. The gap between knowledge and action or behavior is going to be big. His ability to say, “Oh, I understand emotion mind, I understand the window of tolerance. I understand…” And  all of these things that are wonderful for him to learn. When is he going to put them into place? Not at five,


34:35  Mary:  Right. I know I could, barely.


[Laughter]


34:38  Leslie:  Thank you, thank you—I was going to admit to the same thing. I still enter my emotion mind. Emotion mind is not a bad thing. Getting outside the window of tolerance is not bad. There's no good and bad. It's just awareness. And can that information help us regulate? So yes, he will learn to regulate. But your expectation—the parents, the caregivers, the adults around him—need to have realistic expectations. He's learning this. We can wait 18 years before he shows us that he can…he's working it. It's a slow progression. It's happening, and we need to give him plenty of time to develop those skills that actually will change his behavior, because otherwise we're telling him we don't like you the way you are. 


And he's a sensitive kid, as you said, with big emotions. He needs time, like I'm ready to get out my DBT workbook for him and teach him some more skills. Oh, I do want to teach him some more mindfulness skills, because you might say, “Huh. Tell me when you notice your hands go in your mouth. Let's find out if, in that moment you need a hug, stamp your feet 10 times. Your hands tell us you might feel overwhelmed. So let's find maybe some other mindful activities that you can do when you feel overwhelmed. It's a good warning signal. It's a good thing to say, ‘Huh, I think I'm feeling overwhelmed.’” So he can, and maybe he can develop a few tricks in school, a few strategies in school, a few at home. I would be very careful not to overfocus on this stuff. 


As I said, growing up needs to be a little messy, but all of it is information about who he is, and he may not do the same behaviors, and he won't be pulling hair. I don't think I'm going to worry about him pulling hair later. But that said, a five-year-old pulling hair still makes sense. Big, intense emotions still make sense for him. Does that make sense? 


36:38  Mary:  Yeah. 


36:39  Leslie:  So I think the anxiety that he's feeling is getting used to the environment he's in. So helping him with little statements of, “You know what? Every day you go to school, you get a little bit more familiar with school.” And as I said, you might say, “What are two things you can count on when you go to school today? What are two things that might be surprises?” Maybe you end the day with two things that were familiar, two things that were unfamiliar, so that he gets to balance out the knowns and the unknowns, the predictable and the unpredictable. He loves the predictable. We can acknowledge that with him, and we just want to keep letting him know that he can handle the unpredictable, even when they are uncomfortable.


37:28  Mary:  Mm hmm, it's good. You're reminding me. I think I've tried to do that affirmation of just what he's done. The baby came right before preschool ended. Then we had summer. Then we are now in kindergarten, all the visitors that came in between that. I'm reminding myself how long change takes for the school. And I'm seeing it for months now, during that time with Covid. He's starting to understand what it means, some of these—napping, nursing, baby needs me—and he's, you know, it's okay. It's not causing a…it's not fitting, or throwing something or screaming or whatever he could be doing. So, yeah, I'm reminded how long change takes and then there's just more change to come. [Laughter]


38:25  Leslie:  Great. Messy, we know that. And reminders. I like the fact that you're reminding yourself to give it time. Definitely, definitely, definitely keep reminding yourself to give it time, to go with the flow. Just like he likes predictability, you might like things to be in order, and you may get overwhelmed yourself with all of these changes. And I don't think we need to lay that on top of him. He needs to know that Mom is more or less a stable pillar of support, not that you can't share that you're tired or overwhelmed at times. 


I always like to add, “And I can handle it.” “Hey, I'm tired, and that's my job, and I'm tired and I'm okay.” Because if they hear you're overwhelmed, and they have an idea of overwhelmed, “What's wrong with Mom? Is she going…” you know. That could be scary. So I really like to reinforce, “I'm overwhelmed and I can handle it.” And then I might tell them two out of 10 times; I don't need to tell them every time I'm overwhelmed. 


So you probably—and I'm making this up—may be very similar in the way that it's genetics. You might be similar in those ways, where those things are important to you as well, and say, “Yeah, I get it.” Just sort of acknowledging the messiness of it, and almost the messiness of it, if I didn't say this before, the messiness of it without the expectation that it needs to be fixed. 


So with the affirmations, now I'm really getting picky. You're doing a great job, and I'm going to get picky just to share with you. So when you say, “Oh, I share the information of where he's come and the accomplishments,” fantastic. I love that. “Whoa. You got through this.” But I don't want to highlight only that, “You got through this so beautifully.” I want to highlight, “Wow, there was some tough times, and there were some really fun parts of this.” So again, I'm not trying to create only a pretty picture. We have a full roundness to our being. 


So for him right now, with predictability, you can go back to, “What were two things that were familiar.? What were two things that were unfamiliar or surprises?” So I just want to reinforce that, because I think that kind of language, as you go through the changes, will provide some familiarity and just a routine a little bit. Usually, when people come to me when they have a baby with four months old in therapy, I go, “Go home, rest.” 


It's just…I mean, you just took a breath. You went, “ughh.” It's so much. It's so tiring. So I want to thank you for being here. But before we wrap up, is there anything that we've left unsaid that you want to bring up?


41:19  Mary:  I think a surprise that came for us as parents was watching how much love there is between the children. I mean, sometimes he's like, ughh, the baby crying, or, in the car, you know, put, like, a blanket over his head or whatever. [Laughter] I mean, it's like, yeah, no one wants to be in this car with a crying baby. And I think that has been really beautiful to get the sense of seeing their, you know, their sibling relationship. 


I know it might not be constant—and you're shaking your head—and so maybe that's the next time in a year. [Laughter] “Okay, siblings! Sibling rivalry! What do I do?” It seems like that at least part has been a little bit of a saving grace, that there's a lot of love and care and, you know, reading to the baby and doing baths with the baby. So that has been a relief. I think I was waiting for something, and maybe it's to come.


42:23  Leslie:  Yeah, when babies start crawling, there's a new kind of…it's not a threat, but it's a new kind of, “I have to share my space. First, I had to share my mom. Now I have to share my space.” So yes, I'm so glad you recognize that things will change. Because, as you said in the beginning, change is constant, even though we don't want to hear that over and over and over. And the underlying thread is the love, the connection. That's a beautiful thing, and that's going to be there, even if he does get frustrated with his brother. 


I love that you have the gratitude for those moments that you have amongst the many, many challenging ones. Because there are very intense joys and there's intense frustrations. Why don't you go and try some of this stuff? Think about it, see how you digest it, and we can talk again. 


[Music: The Beat of Nature by Olexy]


43:15  Mary:  Thank you, Leslie,


43:16  Leslie:  You're going to get through this.


43:18  Mary:  Thank you.


43:28  Leslie:  Many kids have recently started school, and for some it's easy, and for others it's full of stress. And the same goes for parents. How your child approaches a new school year tells you a lot about your child. And if you look carefully, you will see patterns on how they start the school year. Do they get nervous the month before school starts? Do they start off with a bang before it all seems to fall apart a few weeks into the school year? All of Oliver's challenging behaviors were his way of saying, “I want Mommy and I want to be home.” Kids remind us that they need that sense of being connected when changes are happening all around them. 


And I want to thank Mary for taking the time to learn how to hear him. For children who are rigid thinkers, change can feel like they're climbing a mountain every day of their life. Change creates uncertainty and unfamiliarity, and if you have a child whose need is for predictability and structure, they are going to resist and bring challenges to your parenting. The antidote is accepting that this is who they are. They are not doing anything to you or on purpose, and balancing that with teaching them how to be flexible. 


Embrace the dialectic between the knowns and the unknowns, the familiar and the unfamiliar. You're not going to fix their discomfort with change, but you can give them a foundation to deal with that discomfort. A photo of the family in their backpack, a post-it-note of “I love you” in their lunch box, a special dance or hug before they go to school or to welcome them home—these behaviors create rituals, which create connections. And that helps your child feel safe and secure. 


[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]


Join us next week for my second session with Mary, where we talk about frustration—both hers and her son’s—and what we can do to deal with low frustration tolerance. 


Subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you like what you hear, tell a friend, you can apply to be a guest on Season Three, or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury and Mia Warren. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for listening.  And this week, remember that you can be an anchor for your child in the sea of change. .


Transcribed by Eric Rubury