Mary Part 2 of 3: When Kids Have a Low Frustration Tolerance

Sometimes there’s nothing more frustrating than dealing with a frustrated child. In part 2 of our 3 part series with Mary, mother of six-year-old Oliver and a newborn baby James, Leslie explores just how exhausting being stuck in the frustration loop with your child can be—and how to break out of it. They also get into bedtime, setting limits, and parenting guilt. 

Time Stamps

• 0:36 Low frustration tolerance
• 3:03 Letting go of expectations is about accepting the moment in order to move forward. Remember: it’s supposed to be hard
• 11:54 “I need him to” is a dangerous thing to say
• 23:09 The tough job of being a parent
• 23:12 Bearing witness to your child’s discomfort or pain
• 23:19 The guilt of doing it good enough
• 23:47 The definition of guilt; we don’t need the extra burden of it
• 25:36 When to give in, when to ignore and when to set limits - these are confusing choices all parents face.
• 30:41 Assessing is important: there’s a cause for all behavior
• 33:13 Kids may need to be active to actually calm down their neurological system before bed: compression, getting wrapped up in a blanket, hugging a teddy bear, etc
• 39:25 Allow the misbehavior to communicate what’s going on
• 39:47 Take a guess at why your child misbehaved:  scared of nightmares, not wanting to end the day, feeling stimulated in his body and need to release tension of the day, wanting to be closer to mom.

Leslie-ism:  Learn as you go, learn from the past, and learn from mistakes. 

Resources:

• Sign up here to be a parent guest on Is My Child a Monster? Podcast
• Leslie's Video of Using the STOP Skill to Deal with a Low Frustration Tolerance

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook and Instagram. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury. A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support to make this possible.

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:02  Mary:  For no reason, he just stomps on my ankle. It definitely is triggering because, “I see you're wanting something, you're frustrated.” And it really is kind of predictable at this point, like, this is the scene we play out. This is what happens every night, and it's frustrating.

0:22  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  It is frustrating when you and your child are trapped in this loop. The ability to handle frustration is called frustration tolerance, and some children are born with a low frustration tolerance. That means they get upset more easily, and there are ways to help. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting therapy podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in therapy sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster. 

Before I dive into this episode, I want to invite you to come and be a guest on the show. We're recruiting families for Season Three right now. Maybe you've been curious about therapy, or maybe you know someone who could use some extra support. If you're interested visit ismychildamonster.com to apply. 

Okay, now in Mary's second session, we're talking about frustration tolerance for her six-year-old son, Oliver, as well as for herself. At times, Mary just wants to throw up her hands in defeat. And that is a totally normal response, and it's not the only option. Today, we talk about other ways to manage everyone's frustration. We also talk about bedtime, setting limits, and parenting guilt. 

Okay, now as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed, and this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. So let's begin. 

2:10  Leslie:  Hi, Mary, how are you?

2:13  Mary:  I'm good, Leslie. How are you?

2:15  Leslie:  I’m good. It’s so good to see you. And it's been a little while. So we had our first session. There were a lot of adjustments for Oliver. He had a new school, new friends, and we also talked about the fact that you had a lot of adjustments. Can you share if there's anything from that session that you maybe had questions about, that you worked on, or any feedback from the first session before we get going?

2:43  Mary:  I love talking with you, Leslie. Your wealth of experience and knowledge is so big. And I think something that I took away was that it's supposed to be hard—it's a big transition. It's all hard. Transitions take time. And so I think about the lowering the expectations, the accepting what is. You might have said a really beautiful Buddhist quote or mantra or something somewhere in there that really just helps. It just helps to accept, “All right, our family is going through a huge transition. Yeah, it's going to be messy.

3:21  Leslie:  So can I ask you a question about that? Because I know, when I did my parenting class, I did have a few parents that would say to me, “Are you just like this laissez faire kind of parent who's saying, throw up your hands and just let your kids do anything?” Because I do use that line: lowering your expectations. But you interpret it as slightly different and actually the way I intended it. So what do you hear when I say, lower your expectations so that life is actually more effective and fuller and it's less stressful?

3:56  Mary:  I think having the mindset, my mindset of being in the transition and accepting that's really hard. So when there are hard emotions or big emotions coming at me, or these transitions are more difficult than I want them to be, I can have that empathetic…my empathy kind of turned on and my acceptance kind of turned on. As long as I can sit with my child in that place, there's such an easier way to move out of those hard moments. 

And it's so hard when we're both like, “his is so hard,” and, you know, we're not going to get anywhere. And so then we're just kind of more stuck in the movement we want to create. So the acceptance of, “Yes, it's probably going to be a meltdown. It's probably going to be hard. Okay, great…what can I…I need a second cup of coffee before I do that?” Or, just expect that support myself so that expectations can be like: he's not going to master this, he hasn't mastered this. He needs the scaffolding. He needs the support. “All right, I’ve got to talk about this for days before we do it,” or whatever.

5:07  Leslie:  Okay, you nailed it, because what you said, that really made sense to me. The acceptance and the lowering of the expectation is not a defeatist throwing up your hands and giving up. What it is is it's accepting the moment as it is so that you can move through it, so that you don't get stuck in it. And that's a beautiful thing. So okay, I just need that clarified for myself, I think. All right, keep going. Any other feedback? 

5:37  Mary:  Yeah, one suggestion you made was to tune Oliver's mind or reflections into, “What were things that went different during your day today, and what were things that went as you expected as you intended today?” And he said, “Mama, why are you asking me this every day? What's going on here?” [Laughter] But he did do it, and he would think about it. And I think that was a nice practice that we had for a little bit of time of getting him used to the fact that some days are going to be blue, some days are going to be red—this kind of thing—and that it's all a part of grist for the mill.

6:24  Leslie:  By doing that, you are actually orienting him, planting these little seeds and orienting him that some things are predictable as you plant. And some things don't turn out the way you planned or there may be something different that happens. So it's just helping kids who really like predictability, just to understand and orient them so that instead of being surprised by it and overwhelmed by it, which could happen for a child who likes predictability. Instead, they come to see it as, “Oh, that was different. I can tell Mom about that later.” All of a sudden, it may give them a handle on it.

7:00  Mary:  Yeah. We're kind of working with that a bit now because we have a new caregiver. And Oliver is loving board games right now. That seems to be what he wants to play after school. And they had a more creative rapport, or some kind of wacky rapport with voices with my old caregiver. It's only been three weeks with my new caregiver, but they haven't…they don't have that, right? So he's like, “She doesn't have that talent of doing all those voices.” “Well, you're getting to know her.” And so I said, “It took a while for you to warm to our first caregiver. It's probably the same thing.” And so I think that it might be this, it's-not-the same-way. You don't play with the same person the same way, right? That kind of, it's that game, but it's not the same. So we're working on that.

7:58  Leslie:  Great. And that's just information for him, like, “Okay, that's cool Information.” When he tells you something, your mindset being just of, “Oh, good information, good observation,” and just leave it at that; rather than everything needs to be figured out or solved or whatever. I love it. Just sort of, “Oh, okay. That's cool.”

8:19  Mary:  Yeah, that makes sense. And transitions are getting better in terms of when I'm with the two children and I have to step away and do a nap time is the most disruptive. Because we're playing and in the middle of a board game, and we're having a lot of fun, and, “Oh, yeah, I gotta go do nap time.” And that is a 20-minute break or something for me. And that is hairy, but it's getting better. 

And I think that's where the sort of low frustration tolerance that we sort of touched briefly on last time has come in. And maybe even since you said that, I've been thinking about that more around seeing how Oliver has that. And it's very different to my second baby, who's already…he's seven months, but he problem solves. He's like, “Oh yeah, you guys are over there. Okay, I'm going to go over here.” And these developmental changes that happened so quickly in that first year. So I'm like, “What's happening with James, my baby?” I'm so much more equipped to tolerate the discomfort, the ”Aaaahhhh.” And I think with Oliver, I was not prepared. 

It's still hard on my nervous system, like, I hear it, you know? But now, if I'm, “Okay, I'm going to finish doing the dishes, and complete my task, and then I'm going to attend to you.” Which I think with Oliver, it would just be stop and go, and stop and go, and stop and go. And I think maybe because I'm experiencing this with James for my second time, I look back at Oliver, and especially things that have to do with motoring and moving his body—he's not great at problem solving—and the low frustration tolerance comes in. 

So it was one of these, “I'm going upstairs. I have to do nap time with baby. Papa's outside, get your snow boots…” It’s a big ask, a big ask. Snow boots, snow pants, mittens, gloves, jackets, the song, you know, whatever. Go out the door, you know, and I get them all out. I lay it all out. Here's all the stuff. And then I'm upstairs, and I'm just doing the nap. And I say, okay, and the door was locked, and he got himself all ready, and he just stood at the door crying for me, and I could hear him. But he didn't think to look to the left and go,”Okay, you have to go through the kitchen, go around the house,” but you could get outside. And so he wants me to help him with all of that. 

He's not happy, he's getting very frustrated. “Ughh, it's nap time, it’s going to take long and…” And when I can, I want to put on his pajamas for him and help him and give him that comfort that I know that he wants, too. So I try when I can, and I'm trying to switch it up, make sure I have time with Oliver, make sure I'm not always on the baby. And it's much easier now that he's older, to have more time away. But his nature, even before James came into the scene, was that not very independent, not really problem solving, wants closest connection to do everything together. And I really, really need him to move in the other direction.

11:50  Leslie:  All right, bingo: stop there. “I need him right there.” Those are dangerous words, because, yeah, that's great. You need him to, and maybe it's best for him in the long run as well. And we don't have that kind of control. But there's a lot here to unpack. First of all, let's go back to the fact that there is birth order, and you were very different—first time mom—and this time going around with the second because you said, if he cried and he was uncomfortable, you went, you addressed it, you were there. So why wouldn't he stand at the door and just cry? Because you trained him. 

Now, I don't think it's all environment. I do think he's got a personality, but I do think we have to say, “Okay, I was there. I made sure I addressed his needs really, really quick. Probably didn't let the first one have as much experience with frustration and problem solving. I jumped in probably rather quickly.” There's nothing wrong with that. That's probably true for most firstborn children, because it's your first time. Second time is like, Oh, actually, if I let him cry, he's going to figure out he can scoot around this way or do this. So we don't know that. You're doing the best you can. 

I love the Maya Angelou quote: If you know better, do better. If you don't know, you can only do as best as you can with the skills that you have. So those are really important, to understand that you're doing the best you can with the skills you have in that present time. And it may have had the effect that he expects immediate results from Mom or Dad. So that's one thing. 

Then there's the biology of: maybe he does have a low frustration tolerance. Some children absolutely are born with that, and you're seeing you have different children. So he could have been stuck with the right way is, “I'm supposed to go out this door now I'm stuck. It's right. It's right. I'm going out this door,” and now he didn't know what to do. So his biological makeup definitely is a piece of this low frustration tolerance. 

So if that's the case, “Okay, I got to have empathy.” You used the word before. “I have to have some compassion that I might have reinforced some of the low frustration tolerance with the way we parented him.” That's one and two. “I also have to understand that he comes into the world with his own biological makeup, and I need to also respect that I have two different children. And one might figure things out, and the other one might need more guidance.” The truth is, learning to ask for help is a perfectly fine thing for both children to learn. 

And maybe Oliver, because he has a low frustration tolerance, maybe he learns that one quicker. “Mommy, I need help,” whereas James might be a child who doesn't actually ask for help, and sometimes we do need to know how to ask for help. So what else can you do now about a child who might exhibit this low frustration tolerance? Well, it's frustrating. So if you're frustrated with his frustration, that's not going to be a win-win situation. That's going to be the lose-lose situation. 

You can name it: “This is really frustrating.” And when he's not in that moment, you can play a game of, let's name five different options of what else you might be able to do, or three other options. And you don't do it in the moment, but you practice flexible thinking. And if we play the game of later, after playing outside, saying, “Oh, you were at the door, and it was really frustrating that that door was locked and you couldn't get out, and I was upstairs. Oh, my goodness, that was really frustrating. Let's play a game where you name three ways, and I'll help you, because I'm going to play the game with you. Three other things you could do when you feel stuck.”

And you might draw it like a map, like, “Here you are.” You draw a little picture, you make a circle, and you put Oliver's name in the middle. And then you say, “Here's one road that went to the front door and that one was stuck. So now can you go back and find three more roads, three more little paths out of that place to get you where you want to go?” And you might even take a real map out and say, “Hey, we're going to grandma's house. Let's find…” and you take a magic marker and show him that we can go to grandma's house or your neighbor's house, drive around the corner and then get there. But you can draw these maps that say there's many ways to the same point. And so this is a long-term learning strategy kids with a low frustration tolerance—probably that's a lifelong quality,

16:43  Mary:  Uh huh.

16:43  Leslie:  It's hard, it's hard to go through life when you have a low frustration tolerance. 

16:49  Mary:  Yeah. I think obviously at home, that's the worst part about it, because his teachers will say that he's flexible. His teachers will say he's reasonable. He's flexible, because rules are different and expectations are different. And right now, everything at home that's also constantly changing, because James is constantly changing, which means we can no longer play board games on the ground, because that means James is going to take all the pieces, we have to play at a table. And there's all these adaptations that have to happen that I think are not what Oliver wants. He wants predictability. 

Definitely feels like there are aspects to him that have that rigid thinking. And then there are others that don't—t's not across the board entirely. But I think if you could explain something… my parents got Covid over Christmas, and we couldn't go down for Christmas, took it like a champ, like, did not care. So it's nuanced, and maybe has something to do with when he has all the independence piece, when he has to on his own figure out the solution, or I'm not there to talk him through. “This is Plan B. It's changed,” because he's so used to Covid, at this point he's five…

18:14  Leslie:  Right.   

18:16  Mary:  He’s like, “Covid ruins everything.” [Laughter] But there's something about that independence piece which relate. I think about these moments, of just the jumping to and the jumping to respond. 

18:30  Leslie:  You mean, on your side. 

18:31  Mary:  On my side. Just the comfort  that it created in me, and I still feel it. It's not like I don't feel it with James. But it's sort of like a mantra I have for myself, “I'm not doing that again.” [Laughter]

18:47  Leslie:  I love that you're saying it. And I wish first-time parents could hear that. And at the same time, if I had said that to you as a first-time parent, I don't know if you would have listened. 

18:57  Mary:  Yeah.

18:58  Leslie:  You would have thought, “No, I want to walk him through this. I want to be there for him. I want him to make…”  We forget to look at the unintended consequences of our actions. Because there's very little…I'm sure there's some things that are, you know, you do it and that's the end. But oftentimes we act or react, and there could be a number of consequences. So he feels connected—on one side of the coin, he feels connected. 

You're probably developing pathways for him to problem-solve, that you are developing because you're walking him through it with Plan B or whatever. But that independence of, “What do I do if I don't have that connection?” And that may be the unintended consequence of, “Oh, wow, I didn't give him practice at that.” And James comes along, and out of necessity and also out of growth, you're like, “No, I think I'm going to keep doing the dishes because I can tolerate his discomfort.” What you're talking about is a parent tolerating your child's discomfort is just huge. I bet you've grown a lot with your two children.

20:04  Mary:  Yeah, but then I feel guilty. [Laughter]

20:11  Leslie:  Ahhh, the challenge of being a parent!

20:13  Mary:  I always feel guilty I'm not doing enough; “Oh, gosh, if I only did this,” or ”What do I do? I just ‘no’ so much.” And you have nature versus nurture, right? It was not Oliver's nature. He is determined and focused and rigid and these kinds of aspects, he really gets in there. But it's not like a self guided thing. It's very interesting, it doesn't…I just don't see that. And with James, he's just in the world. He's highly engaged from an internal motivation where Oliver is highly engaged, I think, more from his brain or ideas or concepts and not so much like, “Okay, I'm going to go and run, that kind of thing. So, I try to hold it all. But of course, I wish I could have pepper this in, this knowledge in.

21:15  Leslie:  Being a parent challenges us to grow, as we talked about with seeing our children for who they are, treating them differently, and understanding that, as a parent, we are going to bear witness to their discomfort. And that we may feel guilt. Guilt is not an automatic thing, but it's sure to show up for a lot of parents that I talk to. Guilt is defined by behaving in ways that go against our values. So is it justified? Are you really behaving in ways against your values? 

21:45  Mary:  No. I think what you said was the unintended consequence. It's not the point one, it's the point two. It's the cause and effect of whatever that was. But I wouldn't know iif I didn't have that experience, I also have to honor that experience. And Oliver, I learned so much, which is all of the effort of having two children, there's a gift in being able to do it again. And I'm sure there's that unintended consequence in whatever is happening now, even with James and, you know. you don't know what you don't know—you said that. 

So I sometimes wish, because maybe I could have created a more easeful…for our unit, in a lot of ways. Because now I have two children, one is older, has the capacity to be more independent and do things, and I have a seven month old, and they sort of equally, both need me so much. And that's what's the impossibility of, or what feels sometimes impossible or hard for my nervous system. How do I prioritize? The baby, but sometimes it's Oliver, you know, it's like, “Aaaah!” 

23:02  Leslie:  So we're talking about how hard it is to be a parent, that we bear witness to their discomfort and their pain, we can feel very responsible, and many, many parents—like you described—can feel guilt, but guilt over something that you couldn't be responsible for, which is what you could not have known in the moment. 

So holding all of that with a lot of compassion is often like lowering our expectations of a situation. Because when we have compassion that we are not perfect, that our children will struggle. Because, of course, children are going to have their issues, so no need to feel guilty over everything that I could have, should have, would have done. And it's like, “I'm going to let that go. I don't need the extra burden of guilt on my shoulders, because that's not going to help me do the best I can. That's only going to make me worry that I'm always not doing the best.” 

So if we can let go. Look at that guilt. If there is something you are doing that goes against your value, let's say you're losing your temper way too much, then great, then guilt is justified, and you can change it. You can work on it. But if it's not justified because it's that secondary consequence of something that you could not have prepared for or expected or intended, then let's be a little more compassionate with ourselves. Let's be a little kind to ourselves that parenting is that tough job that it really is.

[Music: Dreams in Nature by Olexy]

24:47  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  You've been listening to parents on Is My Child A Monster?, and now it's your turn. We're looking for parents and caregivers to join me on Season Three. We'd love to hear from all kinds of families with kids between ages four and 18. There's no problem too big or too small. If you or someone you know would like to volunteer for some free parenting help and are comfortable sharing your sessions publicly—with all names changed, of course—please visit ismychildamonster.com to apply.

25:27  Leslie:  You brought up something that you mentioned to me that I think maybe you might want to touch on today, which is the idea of when to give in, when not to give in, when to ignore. Do you want to give us some examples or describe what your question is?

25:43  Mary:  Yes. So we seem to have a scene that plays out every night after dinner. It's kind of where one parent is with one child and one parent is with another child. And it's like, go to the finish line: bedtime. And it seems that Oliver really is looking for a lot of sensory input at that time. And it is true that after dinner, historically, before we had the second child, that was my husband's and Oliver's time to connect. They would have more time than is available now. Sometimes it would be wrestling, play wrestling. Sometimes it would be a board game, a card game, this kind of thing. 

So that time is definitely shortened, but he's looking for a lot of sensory input. So he wants to come up and kind of push me, or run through the room and—I'm doing the dishes in the kitchen—and push my body. We've also switched sometimes to get out of certain patterns and dynamics. And I'm doing more of bedtime with Oliver. And for no reason, he just stomps on my ankle, like, no reason—I'm just standing there. It definitely is triggering, because you're saying, “I don't want you to hurt my body. I don't want to hurt your body. I see you're wanting something. You're frustrated,” try to reflect back the emotion. 

And it really is kind of predictable at this point—this is the scene we play out. We're in some sort of dramaturgy where this is what happens every night. And it's frustrating—he hurt my ankle. And I did something last night when this happened. I made a bigger “Ouch!” And he said to me this morning, “Mama, how's your ankle?” And I was like, “Yeah, it really hurts.”. And he's like, “Put arnica on it.” I'm like, “Okay, I'll put arnica on it.” It's like, we're putting up the boundary, but we're not saying there's different times for different things, because it is not okay. He is big. He has power. He's pushing me against the sink. He's stomping on my ankle. He has impact. He could really hurt, and he does really hurt sometimes. And we try to sort of say what I'm saying. And sometimes my husband is a little bit more…wants to have these firm boundaries, like, “That's it. We're going to go right upstairs and I'm going to put you to bed and that's it. No card game, no whatever.”

And sometimes I see the benefits of that, because you have to ride that, and you have to do that if you're going to say that, and you have to go, “Okay, now we're in it. Now we're going to have a tantrum. Now we're going to have to spend an hour, you know, even more time putting him to bed.” But I see the benefits of that, because sometimes I do think that consequence for his age does need to be met. Like, “Hey, we've asked, we've said now three different times…” or whatever it is, “...and now you're still doing it. Then what? 

Or when I'm sort of in the driver's seat with Oliver, I'm like, “Okay, let's get out that math book and do those math problems that you wanted to talk through,” or, “Oh, what book do you want to read?”, or that kind of thing. And it switches right away, almost immediately, once I can get him interested in something else. And that's the way, and it's just like a calm and peaceful evening kind of thing. 

And we were talking about it last night. I was sort of asking, and he just said, “I don't really know why.” He started listing all these different things. And I was like, “That's why you stomped on my ankle?” He's trying to come up with all these good excuses or whatever, “So that's why you stomped on my ankle?” So he said, “Mom, I just don't have an answer for you. My body knows, but I don't know. My brain doesn't know, but my body knows. I'm having emotions,” or, you know, whatever he says. And so, yeah, I would really not like to be rammed into constantly, every night.

29:43  Leslie:  So it's great that it's a consistent problem. I first want to say, identifying whether or not something's a problem is usually because it's consistent. You know, there's something going on here because it's happening every night. It's not a one off because you spent the day outside sledding all day, and he's so thoroughly exhausted he can't control anything. That's situational. This is more something's going on more internally, more, maybe, systemically or dynamically between you guys that we need to figure out. 

So there's a lot of assessment that I like to put into this before I actually decide what I want to do, and then even when I do decide what I want to do, I probably want to have a number of strategies. As a parent. I want to not feel trapped that I have to use one method to do it all the time. I want to have options. So assessing what's going on is very important. First of all, the hair on the back of my arm stands up when you say there's “no reason he's stomping on my foot.” Yes, there is. There's a very important reason that I may not understand, you may not understand, and he may not understand. But there's a cause. 

We want to know that there's a cause, and so we try to look for the function or the precipitating, the what's-happening-before, to understand what is going on with this behavior. So what is the function? What happens? Let's start there. What happens when he pushes you into the sink, or he steps on your foot. What's the function? What happens as a result of that behavior?

31:26  Mary:  I have a big response to him. 

31:29  Leslie:  Yep.

31:30  Mary:  I have a big response. I say, “Hey! Ow, that really hurt! What's going on with you? Why do you do that?” 

31:35  Leslie:  So let's just take it as: you have a big response. Forget what you say—could be the most brilliant thing in the world—he gets a big response. How cool is it if you push a button and fireworks go off? You're like, “That was the coolest thing. I think I'll do that again.” So the first thing we want to notice is it gives him a little power. “I do this and I get a big reaction. I didn't realize I was more powerful than my mom. Look at that.”

Now, he's not thinking that, he's not planning, that he's not intentionally, but that's what happens when you have a big reaction. And Dad comes in, now you’ve got to go to bed. It's like, “Wow, I have so much power. I got my Mom here and my Dad here, and I got them away from the baby.” That's power, right? So we don't want to give him that kind of power. That's not the kind of power we want to give him. We want to give him plenty of personal power, but not that kind of power. So it's not easy.

I do want him to see that it hurts. How can I have a response that says, “Oww, that hurt,” and maybe manage it. I'm trying to think, myself. I mean, if you have a natural response, I'm not even going to worry about it. If you have a naturally big “Oww, that really hurts,” that's okay. So just keep that in mind. I'm not saying the big reaction is bad. I'm saying it can reinforce that behavior. 

So let's go to the next piece of assessment, which is, you said this happens every night. Some psycho-educational piece is, children, actually, their bodies can get very wound up and, neurologically, they need to let out some of that energy before they go to bed. So there is definitely something physiological that is needed. And not all kids need the same amount of letting his body get some of this physical energy out of his body in order to prepare for a bedtime. Which he's saying that to us loud and clear. 

And he's even saying it with hurting you. He's saying, “I’ve got a lot of energy, and I need to get it out.” So when Oliver and his dad would do the wrestling, that was one way. You could get a blanket and say, “Okay, we're going to do Taco Time,” and roll him up and let him feel the compression. You could do a compression massage, just putting weight on his body in a very positive way that just lets him feel his body. He's creating a connection, pushing you. He can maybe do it more independently, like, I don't know, have a beanbag chair where he gets to push, or a ball that he's squeezing or hugging, or teddy bears and things like that, that I do think can vary or can be the same thing every night, but I do think he's telling us he needs physical compression, physical awareness of his own body to help him prepare for bedtime. 

And you would think it's the opposite. You would think, “Oh my god, we're trying to quiet down.” But the truth is, sometimes doing…and it's just for some kids who have that vestibular system that needs quieting, he might need to rock on a rocking chair, go on a balance board—do things that actually bring his nervous system into crossing the midline. And so that might need to be incorporated as a routine into your bed. And it doesn't always have to be wrestling and high energy. It can be quiet energy of having a blanket or teddy bear, or maybe he needs to give you a massage—maybe that's enough physical for him. How does that sound?

35:13  Mary:  Yeah, I think that that seems to be what his body wants, in some way or another. I'm thinking about all the different scenes of this after-dinner situation. And, yeah, it does seem to be a high energy. Even the baby gets a boost of energy after dinner. It's very interesting. It's even like fussy, fussy, fussy, until 5:30, 6:00. We sit, we eat, and then there's a boost of something that happens, that comes through. I even see it, because then he's super happy, just playing again.

35:51  Leslie:  I'm not an expert on children's sleep in that way, but there might be more information on this in terms of that. But I do believe that that boost is getting prepared for sleep. And I also want to mention that going to sleep for children is a pretty difficult thing. And he seems to be one who has more of that existential thought of, “How do I know that I wake up? Where do you go when you go to sleep? Why do I have to end my day?” There may be some existential questions that he doesn't put into words about sleep, but it comes out in his body, which is, “Okay, you're asking me to end my day, which is the things I like to do. You're asking me to go to sleep, which is something I do not understand.” I happen to want to support my child getting ready for bed, because I do think it's a very challenging time for most humans. And a lot of adults have a lot of sleep issues. So I want to go through good sleep hygiene with a child, and it changes over time, because five years old is when you start to have dreams.

36:58  Mary:  He has nightmares. This is how we first connected—picking up the full circle back to sleep—with those existential thoughts around death and loss. And he still has periodic nightmares once every two weeks. He had one last night, for example.And it doesn't mean much talking, but he needs you to come in and back rub and put him back to bed. 

37:25  Leslie:  And guess what? He may not be thinking about this again on a conscious level, but before bed, there's…I have many, many adults who don't go to bed because they know they're going to have a nightmare. He might have a sense that he could have a nightmare, because you never know when it's going to come. And his kicking you is, “I don't want to go to bed,” in a way. Again, he may not be able to verbalize the reason for that behavior. But I just assume, and through assessment and some guesswork—I don't think we have to figure it out—that it could be fear of going to bed because of nightmares. It could be, “I don't understand this bedtime thing,” or just, “I have a lot of energy.” Those are three guesses that I would think are all in play. 

38:05  Mary:  I don't know if I would have connected it to that. 

38:09  Leslie:  And then, when you said, “Do we go with my husband's you-go-to-bed-and-now-there's-a-consequence-no-books-or-anything, or do I go with, “Oh, I'm going to distract him and do that math with him, and then he just changes”? There's no right and wrong. A little bit of everything is sort of okay. I see what works, and at five years old, if it works to distract him, I'm probably going to lean that way. Do I mind setting a clear limit and just saying, “Now we're going to bed. It's gotten late, we're going to bed,” and he has that meltdown? I'm okay with that too. I'm okay with that because I want to let him know that bedtime is important, and hurting people on the way to bedtime, it's not what we want to do. 

So, I would lean towards the one where distraction is working, because it's a little more respectful that he's not doing it on purpose. And so stopping the behavior with, “Okay, now you have to go to bed,” going to bed stops the behavior, possibly, but it doesn't teach him what else to do. So it's very doable. And like I said, if you said you were doing that every night to him, I say, “Whoa.” You're not doing that every night to him. You're giving him a variety of ways of dealing. 

And so I would acknowledge that hurting you is not okay. Hurting other people is not okay. And let's imagine your body is trying to say, “I need to move my body. I need your attention. I need connection.” So allow the misbehavior to communicate what's going on. You can guess. I love the guessing thing, where you just guess. You make some of these statements as to what might be underneath that behavior. 

39:55  Mary:  Yeah, that sounds good. 

39:57  Leslie:  I gave you a lot today. We talked a little bit about his behavior and what it's like being a parent of two kids, and just the idea of parenting. I love it. It's not easy. [Laughter] So you're doing it. You're doing it.

40:12  Mary:  Thank you, Leslie.

40:14  Leslie:  Thank you.

[Music: Forest of Dreams by Olexy]

40:20  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  Most people think frustration is bad because it leads to yelling and conflict, and yelling can certainly be problematic. But the emotion is not the enemy, and that's where parents get confused. I hold children and adults to different standards. Children may not have the skills yet to express their frustration in effective, skillful ways. Adults may not have the skills either, but my expectation is that the adults work on developing those skills. 

Yes, frustration is uncomfortable and common. And it's not a bad thing. It has value. If you come to accept your child's frustration, you will help your child build resilience and grit. If you come to accept your own frustration, you have the opportunity to learn to be more effective and skillful. Mary did an amazing job of looking at her expectations of her son and of herself, which directly impacted the level of frustration everyone was feeling. 

I also want to come back to the idea of parenting guilt. It's possible to learn as you go, learn from the past and learn from mistakes. Yes, there are positive intentions behind why you do what you do. And yes, there are going to be unintended consequences from your parenting choices. No one has a crystal ball. Parenting guilt can get in the way of healthy parenting. It can also provide information about how to do things differently. But when guilt becomes the driving force, it will undermine your parenting choices. 

And this week, remember to learn as you go, learn from the past, and learn from your mistakes.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music] 

Come back next week for my final session with Mary, where her husband Antoine joins us to discuss how they navigate parenting differences. Subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? Wherever you get your podcast, so you don't miss an episode. And if you like what you hear, tell a friend. You can find a full transcript of this episode, or subscribe to my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury and Mia Warren. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for listening. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury