Mary and Antoine Part 3 of 3: When Parents Fight

An unspoken agreement with parents raising children is that they will be on the same page and they will be a united front. But that is often easier said than done. In part 3 of our 3 part series with Mary, her husband Antoine joins us to discuss what happens when they disagree, how it affects their 6 year old Oliver, and what they’re doing to make sure they come back together in healthy ways.

Time Stamps

• 7:34 What does “being on the same page” mean to you?
• 9:51 What does it mean when your child picks up that you are two different people, with two different personalities
• 12:42 For some people, harmony is necessary for the nervous system
• 15:56 Parents might be comfortable with conflict, and your child might need extra reassurance that you’re okay
• 18:43 It’s okay to give children a sense of control in the situation
• 22:03 Start having your child become aware of their level of discomfort - check in with them, and have them name it
• 22:40 An incredible lesson for a child: I’m uncomfortable, and I can handle it
• 25:50 In uncomfortable moments, prepare the family to brave the storm, and that it will pass
• Sometimes we need to table arguments to have them away from children, but it is beneficial for children to see their parents arguing; it can be damaging to only see harmony/”perfection”
• 30:46 Learning to “fight fair”
• 34:28 Repair is incredibly important for children to witness
• 34:40 Ideas of mutual respect and benefit of the doubt
• 40:40 Definition of radical acceptance
• 44:29 Idea that we can be different and still respect each other’s ways; you’re respecting your individual differences
• 45:49 What do tolerating differences look like?

Resources:  

• Sign up here to be a parent guest on Is My Child a Monster? Podcast
• Time Out: Resolving Family Conflicts available in both English and Spanish
• Rules on Fighting Fair provided by Therapist Aid

Leslie-ism: Mutual respect is key for repairing relationship ruptures

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury. A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support to make this possible.

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:02  Antoine:  The baby's young, I think we're a little bit more on edge, it feels like it can turn into more of a we’ve-got-to fight-for-our-needs. When we get into that place is when I think Oliver has less of a capacity to tolerate it. And I see him literally feeling pulled between the two of us. 

0:23  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  As a parent, you have your needs, your partner's needs, and your child's needs. Then you have the everyday demands of running a household, work, and school. And to top it off, everyone has wants and desires. No wonder parenting is tough on a couple. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting therapy podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in therapy sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster. And neither are you. 

In this episode, Mary's husband, Antoine, joins us to talk about how their relationship is challenged by parenting and how that impacts their children, six-year-old, Oliver and baby James. Mary and Antoine, like many parents, want to be on the same page, but what does being on the same page even mean? In this episode, we unpack what it means to each of them. 

One of their biggest concerns is how any tension in their relationship is felt. By Oliver, he's a sensitive and intuitive kid who picks up on the emotions of others. Most kids are tuned in to how their parents are doing, even if you don't realize it. And you can't avoid conflict. It's normal to have parenting differences and tension. So how do we keep our kids from feeling pulled between parents? How do we help them with the discomfort they feel when parents disagree, argue, or even fight? 

We explore how to teach children to manage their discomfort in this episode. Okay, now as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And though I am a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. So let's begin.

2:33  Leslie:  Hello, Mary. Hello, Antoine.

2:36  Mary:  Hi, Leslie.

2:38  Antoine:  Hi, Leslie.

2:39  Leslie:  Okay. So Antoine, you've decided to join us. I'm so curious what you've heard and how's it going since our last session, Mary.

2:48  Mary:  So I think one of the biggest takeaways, that I recall that I was sharing with Antoine as we were talking about this joining and doing the podcast together was, you know, when I said this statement of, “Oh, I have to get Oliver to do something, or change something.” Or I was talking about getting all of his snow gear on and going out the door and being with Papa. And the door was locked, and he just stood there, and he screamed for me, and I was with the baby, et cetera, et cetera. And really focusing on acceptance of our child. 

And our child, Oliver, may be the kind of child that needs that kind of walking through and that holding hand, and is going to want to do things together. And then the beauty, perhaps, of my second child, who's only seven months, I don't know, might not want that. I think you referenced your own children. And then, when I was bringing this to Antoine, just talking about that, it was really nice to hear what he had to say, which was: Yes, but we can coach him through it.

 And you were talking about the three different ways, right? Mapping it out—you could draw it on a map, or that kind of thing. So it seems like there's a balance of…think that was a problem solving, right? Oliver's emotional brain was just…that's what was driving his show., in that moment. He couldn't think, “Oh, I can use the other door.” So, kind of in reflection of our conversation and in dialogue with Antoine, it was like, “Oh, but we also want to coach Oliver to get those skills and have more of that.” So while there is acceptance, there's also teaching moments. There's always these teaching moments. So I think that is really something that stuck with me since our last conversation.

4:47  Leslie:  Okay, so thank you for following up with that. You're naming one of the main dialectic dilemmas. When people come to therapy or working with any relationship: When do I accept, when do I change? And how do I do both? It's that dynamic between all that. I think we'll come back to that. I first want to hear from Antoine a little bit about your desire to be here, and what you've heard about the sessions.

5:17  Antoine:  Yeah, I think the sessions have been interesting. It's just neat to witness Mary just being…I mean, she is always quite proactive. I think even being on this show is a testament to that, but to see her really trying to get ahead of it. Because when we're in it, as you know, it's hard to be proactive. But if we can kind of get ahead of it, discuss it, kind of get into a mindset where we're getting clear about how we might engage in a certain way. I think that helps us stay on the same page if we're on the same team around it. 

And then being able to kind of get ourselves out of some of that emotional mind in the moment, so we can really engage in a way that feels like matches. I know, for me, my values as a parent. And yet there's the acceptance piece, too—we're not going to be perfect. Sometimes it's just we're not going to get it right. But can we be on the same page? 

So a big part of me wanting to be here, too, I think, is that. It seems like she's picking up some skills and some ideas and orientations. And how do I come along for the ride, but also be a participant in us being proactive parents for our kiddos.

6:23  Leslie:  Great. Okay, so we can talk about being on the same page, and maybe you can tell me, for both of you, what does that mean?

6:35  Mary:  I guess being on the same page might mean we don't necessarily agree. It doesn't mean that we have agreed, or either one of us thinks that the other idea is better or whatever. But that being on the same page, we're going to approach it like this. We're going to take this trial, we're going to move forward with this problem in this way. And it seems to be important, or maybe the context I'm thinking about is that we are on the same page in front of Oliver. 

And maybe we're not, as I said. But that feels really important and helps things go so much more smooth. Because he's so clever, if he picks up on something, “I can get away with more. I can ask more.” “Oh, you don't agree, I can start to participate in the negotiation process.” Whatever it is, “I have ideas. I have thoughts of who's right or who's wrong.” That's where it can get really hard and messy. And now we have a whole other set of emotions to handle in the problem.

7:47  Leslie:  Okay. So your definition of being on the same page is not necessarily agreeing, but sort of picking a path and going forward together on that path; at the same time trying to present that united—tell me if I'm wrong—united front for Oliver, is that what you're saying? 

8:10  Mary:  Yes. 

8:11  Leslie:  Okay. Antoine, can you tell me what your definition of being on the same page is? Because I'm curious what you're thinking.

8:20  Antoine:  Yeah, I agree with Mary. It's not about necessarily always being in agreement around something. But I think there is a way that when we can come across as…I think I'd use the example of when we're kind of sleep-training James and having the same, like, “This is our plan of action. This is what we're going to do. This is when we're going to go in there.” There's something so concrete as, that that feels really solid. And it's hard to do that just between the two of us. Often it takes that third person, like the coach or the therapist, to help us get on the same page. 

I think with Oliver, he's just getting more sophisticated the older he gets. So being on the same page isn't as simple as just, “What are we going to do as we sleep-train,” but how are we engaging with each other, I think, as Mary says, in front of him, around a dilemma. And often, I think that the limit is a scarcity of resources, whether that's our time, whether that's our attention, whether that's…Those seem to be the biggest resources at this point, and how are we negotiating and navigating those. And those seem to be the moments that can also be a challenge between us, and how are we coming across in those moments? So Oliver is feeling like he sees us navigating it in a way that feels maybe congruent to how we want him to also learn how to do.

9:43  Leslie:  So, you're pointing out some really challenging situations as your child grows, because your child is picking up on the fact that you are two different personalities. He's gotten to know you each individually—you're two different people. I imagine that you go through life in different ways. He's beginning to pick up on that. So now you're asking to put a layer of parenting, co-parenting, on top of that. That's a tricky thing. That's a tricky thing. 

So what does Oliver think, if he were here? I don't know if either one of you think you could speak for him, but if he were here, what would he say about Mom and Dad being on the same page? Would he want you to be on the same page? I'm going to play devil's advocate. Does he enjoy having two parents on two different pages, and what does he get out of it?

10:45  Mary:  I think he absolutely wants harmony in the home, a hundred percent. Of course, if something is very… like, “I want to get this ice cream” or whatever, he might be a little bit more manipulative than that, and ask me, because I love ice cream. But I think he really…it really does not…he does not feel good. And he's very sensitive and attuned to us when there is disharmony in the family. And he very much feels safe when there's just one answer, and we know the answer, and we know the plan, and we say it. And I think it's very confusing. And more so now, because we have a second child, we don't have the time to talk about things besides in the moment or on the fly, which is hard for me. 

So it's hard for me and Antoine to figure out who's going to do what and who wants to do this, and et cetera, et cetera.  And I think Oliver also struggles with that unknown, uncertainty. He's listening to each of our, “Oh, I'm tired. I'm too tired. No, I want to do this. No, I want to do this.” And he wants everyone to be happy. So I think he gets anxious, and it's very uncomfortable for him to witness this kind of interaction. 

12:11  Leslie:  Boy, you said a lot there. That's very interesting. So: another question I have for the two of you. You said he loves harmony. Do you two love harmony? And I mean that seriously. I mean, we all love harmony. But I'm really saying this serious…you're both laughing at me. Yeah, I really am saying this seriously, because, in a way, harmony, although it really is lovely for some people, it really is necessary for their nervous system. They go into an environment where there's not that kind of ease and quiet.Even physical—if there's too much activity or too many things on the wall or whatever—that simplicity for some people is harmony. So harmony is defined by very different things for different people. But are you two individuals who actually say, “Yeah, you know what? Harmony is really important to me. “What do you think?

13:08  Mary:  Yeah, I think I can handle more push and pull, more discussion. I think that's what I tend to, you know, “What do you…I don't know…well, this is what I'm thinking. But I feel like this. What are you thinking?” I think I have more space for discussion or even conflict in choices, because that's life, right? So we always end up, I think, at a good place, it seems. But I have more room for that, I would say, than Oliver. 

13:40  Leslie: Now, what about…Antoine, how do you feel?

13:45  Antoine:  Yeah, it feels like this is that edge for us, I think sometimes. Because I think there's a way in which, like us negotiating our own needs, there's a fine line between that. And going back to maybe Mary's definition of being on the same page, we could disagree, but we're getting to an agreement. We're getting to, “Okay, how are we negotiating our different needs,” whether that's who's going to take the baby in the morning, or who gets to go to the gym or who's picking up Oliver from school. And I think there's a way in which that conversation could go, at least in my ideal mind, where Oliver could tolerate us having differences, but seeing that we're working together towards a common solution. 

I think when we're under slept, I think the baby's young, I think we're a little bit more on edge. I think it feels like it can turn into more of like, “Oh, we’ve got to fight for our needs.” And I think when we get into that place is when I think there's more of where Oliver has less of a capacity to tolerate it. And I see him, literally, feeling pulled between the two of us. You can really, literally, see him…like, he almost acts it out. You can feel him being torn between Mary and I navigating what our needs are, in the moment. 

15:12  Leslie:  So what you said early on, Mary, I want to circle back to that. You know when you gave the example from last session where he's at the door, and I talked about radically accepting he might be someone who needs more help, or ask for more help, and wants his hand held when he's still learning to do something. And I appreciate, Antoine, that you added the idea of, “Yeah, we can accept it, but also coach him.” That's exactly where I want to start, because it sounds like he is a sensitive child who wants both Mommy and Daddy to be on the same page, to agree, and not to do the disagreeing thing. 

So you two may be comfortable with it. You two may do a lot of the processing, the back and forth as a way of actually being quite emotionally intelligent, and sharing your own individual needs and working it out, where both sides get to be heard. And that's a beautiful thing. And for him, he's grown up with it, and he might be just saying, “Come together, come together.” That's the feeling you get when he's going back and forth, trying to get you to be on the same page. So I think it's going to take a while. 

But there's nothing wrong with helping him understand you're okay when Mommy and Daddy have different opinions or they disagree. You might actually do a little thing where you say, “Hey, Mom and Dad are going to take one minute to disagree.” And put on a timer and say, “Hey, you're in charge of the timer.” So now he's united, because he's in charge of watching the time, as opposed to, “I'm watching them go back and forth. And this is really upsetting me.” “No, you're in charge of giving us five minutes. We can either stay here and discuss it, or we're happy to go to our bedroom. We can discuss it, and you tell us when it's time we'll be done.” So he feels some control. He's in charge. It's a healthy way of having a sense of control over focusing on the unit of: You two are going to work something out together. The disagreeing is not pulling you apart. It's actually coming together, because we're going to time you and give you your five minutes to have that discussion. How does that sound?

17:33  Mary:  A challenge to agree in five minutes.

[Laughter]

17:37  Leslie:  Oh, well, maybe eight minutes! I don't know, I mean, he's a five year old. I can't ask him to wait a half hour! What do you think?

17:45  Antoine:  I was thinking the question you asked is letting him know he's okay. I think when I think about it, I think he wants to make sure that we're okay. And I think that's what helps him feel okay. And so, how do we get that message across? It's not about reassuring him. And I think, is it the non-verbals? Is it trying to make contact while we're maybe in an argument and smile? There's something about those touchstones that I think really helps him feel more calm, or, as they say, regulated. So I'm curious, your thoughts around those strategies as well.

18:21  Leslie:  I'm glad you pointed that out. I still think, even though I actually do wholeheartedly agree with you, that he is probably more concerned about his parents doing well, because that is evolutionary. That's an evolutionary important thing, that you guys are okay, because he's not okay if you're not. So that makes total sense. I still think giving him some control, because when we have this—I mean, unfortunately, adults love a false sense of control—as a sense of safety, but for children, it's okay to give him that sense of control with the timer. 

I also like your question as to what can you do. You can state it. You can say, “Hey, time out. Daddy and I are going to discuss.” “Mommy and I are going to discuss our disagreement and figure out the plan.” So you're, again, naming the plan that you're going to come up with in this sense of unity. “And we're going to disagree. I'm okay.” And you check in with each other. “Hey, Antoine, are you okay?” “Yep, I'm okay. Hey, Mary, are you okay?” “Yeah, I'm okay. I might be upset, and I'm totally fine, because I know we're going to work this out.” So take a moment to set the stage. Take a moment to set the stage that, “We are going to disagree. We might get upset and we're okay, we're okay.”

“And what do you need to do if we're getting upset? What do you need to do to be okay?” That's where the timer can come in. That's where he can…”Do you want to bring over your Legos? Do you want to sit on my lap while Daddy and I discuss it,” or something like that. So physical touch to help him, rubbing his back while you're going through the disagreement, taking time out, setting the stage, and saying, “Hey, this is what's going to happen. This what's going to happen when Daddy and I have a discussion. He may get upset, I may get upset, and we're really okay, because this is how we make our plan. This is so exciting, we make a plan through figuring things out. It's a puzzle.” 

And then you could bring up…does he like puzzles? He does? Okay. So you could bring up the puzzle. The metaphor of puzzle. “This is a puzzle. You know how sometimes you can't get the puzzle piece in, it doesn't fit. Well, that's what happens when Daddy and I talk (or Mommy and I talk). Sometimes it feels like the pieces aren't fitting right now. But guess what? We work at it. We work at it, and we get the puzzle done after a little bit of work. We're going to stick with this. We're going to stick with it till we get to a plan.”

Does that sort of give you a few ideas for helping him understand that, yes, you are disagreeing, and that may not be comfortable to him. 

21:02  Mary:  Yes.

[Music: A Walk in the Forest by Olexy]

21:21  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  You've been listening to parents on Is My Child A Monster?, and now it's your turn. We're looking for parents and caregivers to join me on Season Three. We'd love to hear from all kinds of families with kids between ages four and 18. There's no problem too big or too small. If you or someone you know would like to volunteer for some free parenting help and are comfortable sharing your sessions publicly, with all names changed, of course, please visit ismychildamonster.com to apply. 

22:01  Leslie:  The other thing is, you can rate it. You can check in with him, “Hey, in the discussion we had about what we were doing this morning, how uncomfortable were you on a scale of one to ten?” Start having him become aware of his level of discomfort and say, “Okay, great. We got through that. When it was all over, how uncomfortable were you?” 

You can give him a scale or a picture rating, and you can check in and show him that he was uncomfortable, and then it went away. He got through it. He handled his discomfort. That's an unbelievable lesson for a child, “I'm uncomfortable, and I can get through it, and I'm okay, and it will pass.” The good old saying: It will pass. 

So those are just some ideas, but now I'm going to throw it back on you. How often are you doing this? 

23:00  Mary:  Ummm…less. 

[Laughter]

23:03  Leslie:  Yeah, I know a little honesty here. How often are we asking him to witness this?

23:08  Mary:  Once or twice a week, maybe, I think, I would say.

23:14  Antoine:  Always in the morning. It's in the rush of getting him ready. We haven't slept well. It's like these moments of negotiating the day, and I think it's hard in the moment. I like the things you're asking for us to do. I think in the moment, when we're in the moment, it's so much harder to step out and be proactive. It sounds like a lot of what you're asking for us to do is be proactive with him. And when we're in our own willful stances around our own needs, that makes a real big challenge to step out of that, check in with him, give him the clock. Go back into that place. So it seems like the morning is really the…

23:56  Mary:  …pressure cooker. 

23:58  Antoine:  Yes, the pressure cooker… 

23:59  Mary:  …so many needs from everybody, even the cats.

[Laughter]

24:05  Antoine:  Everyone's demanding from us, and we're just like, during breakfast, during lunch. Now we have James to feed. We had to make his food and Oliver’s food and his lunch, and then the kitties, and it doesn't stop. And then we're talking. And then I think that's where it can be. And that can set this tone for him for the rest of the day, then we don't have that much time to repair with them. And those can be hard moments. 

24:28  Leslie:  First of all, you said once or twice a week, I thought this was a daily occurrence. If it's once or twice a week, that both makes it, I think, easier and harder. So the easier part of it is you can do…yes, there is a lot of prep, but we can talk about it in preparation. I'll tell you how. And then also, you can do a recovery after. So I have ideas from before and after.

And then it makes it harder, because it's not happening all that frequently. It's not happening every single day. But let's go with the idea of a little bit beforehand. I had an idea while you were talking. When you were describing the morning and the chaos, I was thinking of the idea of sometimes he's old enough to know that there's a rainstorm or even a thunderstorm. But he knows what a storm is, right? He knows when it's raining and it's stormy and whatever. And then he knows when it passes and the sun comes out or it's over. 

So you can't do all the setting of the stage, of the ideas that I had before, every time, because you're in that willful state, like you just described so beautifully. What you can do is go, “Okay, it's raining in here. The climate right now in this household is we are in the middle of a rainstorm. This is going to pass. Hang in everyone, put your raincoats on. We're going to get through this. And then just keep going. Just keep going with the discomfort, the messiness, the chaos of it. 

It's just it is going to get better as the kids get a little older. Maybe not, maybe it'll change, morph into a different kind of stress. But right now you have a certain kind of…not sleeping well, you know, it's a certain morning, a certain feeling that's making it hard. But I would just, if nothing else, whoever's doing a little better than the other one, step up and say, “Hey, you know what? It's a rainy morning. We're all getting a little rained on here. Let's put on our raincoats. It's going to be where it's going to be wet, and this is going to pass. Let's keep going. We can do this. We can do this. You’ve got this.” Just a little encouragement.

So maybe on the wall you have a list of encouragements, and he picks it out, and he says, “You've got this. It's going to pass.” Like, a few little encouraging self-talk. I love to teach kids to self-talk. “I did it,” or, “I can do it.” “I can handle it.” “This will pass.” And just make a bunch on the wall that he can grab, even if you can't read it. He learns those five phrases, three phrases, and he hands it to you, and he marches around and walks around the kitchen, waving the flag of I-can-handle-this. “We can do this. This will pass.” It's a little self-talk.

27:19  Mary:  I do think that Oliver would like the idea of the timer, because that's very concrete and gives him an active role to participate in. Which, it might help him also get out of the taking sides. Because I think that's another, the other piece that happens, is that he wants to side with Papa more often than not, because Papa and Oliver are usually the ones that go off on the weekends and do kind of more exciting things, as it's been. Because I've been pregnant and I have a seven-month-old, so I'm home with the baby often. And so that's one dynamic that's just kind of happened. 

And we do things together, but it's on weekends, as Papa's free, and Papa's not free during the week. So I think that there's a lot of alignment with Papa in these arguments. And I think that's also hard for Oliver to kind of just sit and be quiet. And so he wants to jump in, say, “Mama, I think Poppa’s right, and you should just do this.” And then that's where I personally get overwhelmed. 

And I like, gosh, I know it's not possible to not have conflict in front of him. But there are times where I just don't want to, because I don't want…then he's angry at me. He's, “Oh, Poppa's angry at you. I'm angry at you. Why don't you say yes to Poppa? Why aren't you just doing…? He'll just say, “Why don't you just do what Poppa wants?” I'm like, shut up! 

[Laughter]

28:55  Leslie:  Brilliant child, right?

29:00  Mary:  Yeah. I mean,it's hard. And so that's another element that can throw in more fire, more more difficulty for us, right as we're navigating. Because then it's like, “Gosh, we can't get through what we need to get through.” Now we have another whole idea and person to navigate. 

29:18  Leslie:  So I think yes, and what you said before, which is, do we need to table a disagreement and get out of there? I think sometimes, when it gets heated, the answer is yes. Sometimes. I do believe children should see parents work through disagreements. I really do. I think it's damaging if children only see the perfection and only harmony for the sake of…like, we're only going to be harmonious. I have seen that actually backfire in a big way. 

So what we want to teach them is that they are safe. That's very important. That he's safe—that's important for you to convey that. One of the ways of doing that is really: This is no big deal. I mean, I know you're in the middle of it, I can so easily, from my position right here, say, “Okay, stay calm,” right? I know this is not easy. But if you can remember that the calmer you two stay, the more he will understand that disagreements are safe. 

If you're fighting fair, you're not name calling, you're not interrupting, you're not…And believe me, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's some fouls in there. There's the sweetest—and I'll pass this on to you—there's a little book called Fighting Fair. It's a children's book, and I love it. I use it with all my adults, showing them what the fouls are, like basketball fouls. So I'll share that page with you. But the idea is that you want to give him a sense through your tone, through whatever. 

Maybe, if you're disagreeing, you say, “You know what, let's sit down on the couch.” So actually, sitting down, it's very hard to fight or disagree when you're sitting next to each other on a couch. Maybe you hold hands and disagree. I mean, it can be a little bit of a contradiction, that, “We are okay and we disagree.” The idea is that you want to create that safety for him. That's number one. 

Number two, with the taking sides, sometimes you might want to postpone it, and you might say, “We'll be back. We'll circle back on this one.” And that just means you call each other during the day when he's at school or something like that…if it's possible, may not even be possible with your schedules. But you try to circle back sometimes, so that if any of you, whether he's getting too upset, you're getting too upset, either of you are getting too upset, it's okay to say, “Let's circle back.” And use the language that I teach kids, “I'm in emotion mind, and I think I need to take a breath and come back to this one when I'm in wise mind. If you can model that between your disagreement, he's going to feel that sense of, “My parents have this. They've got this. They know how to handle this.” And all of a sudden he feels better, he doesn't know why. Does that make sense?

32:12  Mary:  Yeah, it does. And I think something we do well, Antoine, is we let him make sure he witnesses our repair. So usually at dinner—these are our moments, breakfast and dinner—we sometimes call a family meeting, and we'll talk about that kind of thing. And so I think he sees and we reflect, or maybe we apologize, or something like that. So when we know we're not speaking to each other in the way that we want our child to witness, we make sure that we are responsible for that repair and then apologize and say, “Sorry that maybe made you feel upset or sad. When that happened, that didn't make me feel good, didn't make Mama feel good, it didn't make you feel good,” that kind of thing. So we do do that. 

33:10  Leslie:  Beautiful. So Antoine, I want to hear because I think you were going to say something. I do want to throw out the concept of mutual respect, but I'll come back to that. Were you going to say something?

33:19  Antoine:  I don't know. I agree, I think, with the family meeting too. He gets to have control over it, because he says he gets to call it, so we have to encourage him. We’ve got to put in a request, like, “I’d like to request a family meeting tonight.” He's like, “Yeah, but I get to call it.” And then he starts off, usually with some kind of prompt beginning, like, we have to tell each other what we appreciate about each other, something where he feels like he has a little bit of control over the process. 

I think another piece too, with the repair that I've learned is that it really actually takes away the pressure I think I have felt internally for being the perfect parent and always on and always attuned. And there's something about being able to like be seen as not perfect, even through the eyes of my own child, actually has been like a healing journey for myself, in a way, ironically. Where there's something about like him being like, “Yeah”…to get to the repair, it feels more important than those moments of rupture.

34:21  Leslie:  And I agree with that, I think repair is an incredibly important structure for children to witness, for people to experience. So that's really great. And I think you've got that down. You give him a little sense of control, which is so cool. So this idea of mutual respect… I'm also going to add the idea of benefit of the doubt, this idea that you see each other, I really feel like I can see it strongly that you respect each other. But of course, he doesn't have that concept. Oliver doesn't understand that you respect each other, in addition to disagreeing with each other, right? And so it's a little bit of having faith, of having faith that he's going through a period where he doesn't get it, we don't expect him to get it, and he will eventually get it. 

So you're staying with this process as he goes through the learning, but you have to witness the parts where he doesn't get it. As opposed to thinking, “Something's wrong, we need to do something different.” I think what you're doing might be just fine. I would maybe take a few of these ideas that I'm throwing out there to set the stage, give him a little more control, give them some words of encouragement. There's a lot of skills we can throw in there to help him deal with the discomfort. 

But in essence, you're just moving through it. That's why I asked you earlier, how much do you two like harmony? Because I think when you just mentioned the word perfectionism or being in your the eyes of your child. It's like: No—living up to perfectionism is just a form of anxiety. It's brutally hard for anyone. And I wonder—I've never thought of this—if there's a little family perfectionism going on here. And that doesn't mean always getting it right. It means if we don't get it right, we’ve got to talk about why we didn't get it right, almost in a way of we're going to get it right one way or the other.

36:27  Mary:  I would relate to the words high expectations for the family. I would say high expectations, across the board,

36:35  Antoine:  Yeah, especially, I think, around our attention and presence. I think we each have high expectations for ourselves and for each other about being present with each other when we are with each other. And I think in some ways, this feeds off of maybe some of the work you've been doing around Oliver. His need for our attention and his expectations of the quality of attention he gets from us feels so high. Like, we don't have our phones really out much when we're with them. 

And if one of us does, it's like, “Are you distracted?” And I think there's just this expectation that we are really on when we're on, and present when we're present. And so I think that maybe this is a place around—I don't know if that's what you're referring to, Mary—but around those the expectations and perfection, high expectations.

37:26  Mary:  Yeah, I think there are. I think with the high expectations, or what I've noticed—I mean, I've talked with you, Leslie about this—is that Oliver really likes a heads-up about things. And so things being organized, things being how I described it, harmonious, order, knowing what's happening, what are we doing, this kind of thing. And so I think there's something of that where it's like, “I have to know, I have to know what we're doing, I have to know what we're doing for dinner, or what's coming next.” 

And there's a lot, now, more of, “I don't know. I'll open the fridge and see what we're having for dinner.” Or, “I don't know, we'll wake up on Saturday morning and we'll make our plan.” And so he is growing so much in that way. You know, where he's asking, “Who's taking me skiing? Who's taking me skiing? Who's taking me skiing?” “I don't know. We haven't decided. We haven't decided, We haven't decided.” So there's something about the expectations that are clear, about being really organized, having his life predictable. 

And then there's that expectation of talking it through with him, and sometimes we don't have that time. We don't have that time to even know what's going on, to let alone, have that five minutes to talk him through his day. I do try. When I say, “Okay, remember, it's library,” I mean, we would forget. James was three months old, and we’d forget every library day to put his library book in his bag on Tuesday. Nursing, texting, “Antoine, put the library book in his backpack.” You know, I don't want to forget that. 

But there were times where we were, we didn't even…we're like, “Just get out the door.” Because we were with a three-month-old newborn, you know? So it is a gift of having another child is so much for Oliver to grow in these ways. But, yeah, I think we all do set ourselves to a high bar. It's like, “Oh gosh, we're sort of, it's messy. We don't know. We're a mess. You're a mess. Baby's crying.” [Laughter] I think there's a lot more of that with two; and with a baby, you need so much. 

39:49  Leslie:  So, you're bringing up the point that brings us back to, who is Oliver as a human being, his biological makeup. Yes, the environment is that you all have these high expectations of yourselves. Maybe that's your sensitivity as human beings as well. But clearly, with everything you just described, Mary, is his biological makeup of needing order. You can call it harmony, which is what you called it in the beginning. It's this idea that predictability is important for his system. 

Now, he's got his lifetime, you've got many, many years to help him work on that. And so whether it's your disagreements, whether it's you both should agree, or whatever it is, or the messiness of not knowing what's coming, that's radical acceptance. Radically accepting is that it's going to be uncomfortable for him. It's really just going to be challenging for him when it doesn't get to be as predictable as he would like it to be. 

So a lot of that holding the dialectic for him, using two hands and saying, “You want to know what we're doing. You want the plan. And Daddy and I have no idea what we're doing right now. We actually disagree. We'll figure it out. We'll get back to you. You can go back to the timing, or “I can handle this.” Maybe even make up a book with him so he can have a little social story of what happens when your parents don't know what the plan is for the day. It's cute little story, right? “Are you okay? Is he okay? Are you going to be okay? When will they figure out the plan?” And let him start to maybe write the story together so that he again has some idea of—yes, his strengths are towards predictability, stability, and order—that those are his strengths. We want to work towards his strengths, and there's that word again, we want to coach him and support him as he's learning to deal with the discomfort of the unknown. “Can you practice being uncomfortable? Can you practice being vulnerable?” Just sort of letting him know that there are going to be those times.

42:15  Antoine:  Well, I have an “Aha” coming up, because I feel like sometimes this is part of our disagreements, because I think I'm orienting less towards order. Mary asks, like, wants to know what we're having for dinner, wants to have it on the books, wants everything scheduled, I'm like, “I don't know, I'll figure it out.” I want space to figure it out. Or a weekend, I don't want things planned. Let's just, like, flow with it and figure it out. 

And it feels like sometimes there's expectation to have things to be in-the-know. Or even if I'm not in planning-mind, I just want to be in, like, “Let's just hang out and do a crossword or do something.” And then we start to get into the scheduling. I find my stress actually increases, like I have to upregulate myself to get into planning mode. And sometimes it's just not the mode that I necessarily want to be in. 

And so it makes me curious about how we set those expectations separately, and what my expectations are that also might be incongruent to hers. I can then start to kind of create a dynamic within the system. And that he's also picked up on. He's like, “Well, do I want to be with the structure person that provides me safety and consistency, or be with the fun guy that we go out on adventures?” And there it becomes a competition,

43:28  Leslie:  Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think it comes back to that mutual respect, because now you're describing that you two are different people, right? So, Mary, if you agree with what Antoine just said about, yes, you like to plan, you like the predictability yourself—that creates calmness for you and order for you—that's your sense of well being. And Antoine, you're a little bit more on, “Let's go with the flow. Let me see what I'm in the mood to cook when I get home,” or whatever. So I think that now we're really getting to the crux of it, which is, when you are a two-parent family, you're dealing with a dynamic that's not easy. Just for two of you, right? Just for the two of you. Now, you have two little beings, and it gets more complicated. 

So the idea that we can respect each other's ways, like, “Hey, Mary, I really respect the fact that you would love to plan this,” bring this language in a little bit more, “I have a feeling you'd love to plan this. And I'm wondering if today's a day we can go without a plan, and I'll be in charge of dinner.” Not saying, “If you want to plan, go ahead, make your plan, but if I'm in charge of dinner, I'd like to go without a plan. Can you work with me on that?” I mean, that's what you might already be doing, but I'm calling out the idea that you're respecting your individual differences, not just the plan. You're not working out the plan. You're respecting the differences. 

And as I say to parents who are struggling in relationships, whether it's divorce or staying married or whatever, it's really about tolerating differences.That's what we need out in the world, too. So the more you can actually think about that these days. Maybe start thinking about how to model tolerating differences, because that's an important life skill. That's going to happen when he goes to school and he's getting along with kids and there are kids who are very different. What does tolerating differences look like?

45:49  Mary:  Yeah, that's great. 

45:51  Antoine:  I think part of that’s respecting each other, but also reminding him of the things we appreciate about the other person. Like, “Mama thinks about the socks you're wearing, and the clothes and the seasons and thinking ahead of these things. And we're on vacation now, she thought about this six months ago to make sure we got the tickets to go on the vacation now.” There's such strengths and the differences that we use to bring to the table, and yet there's also obviously places where heads butt. Those willful parts of ourselves can really come out. So how then bringing this third and then the fourth, once he becomes more cognizant, just the complexity of…and then the cats.

46:36  Leslie:  And then the cats, they've got something to say as well! Okay, let's wrap up there. I hope that there are some ideas that you can continue to play with, and really, maybe they'll grow, maybe they'll morph into something. But go and take some of these ideas and just work them and see how they work, and try them in different ways. And maybe you'll even brainstorm some other ways that we just touched upon. But I want to thank you both. Thank you, Mary, thank you, Antoine, for being here.

47:10  Mary:  Thank you, Leslie.

47:11  Antoine:  Yeah. Thank you. 

[Music: The Beat of Nature by Olexy]

47:24  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  Mary and Antoine are in the thick of it with two small children. I appreciate their vulnerability and honesty in sharing what I so fondly call the trials and tribulations of parenting. I love that they are taking responsibility that their fighting has a direct impact on their son, Oliver, and they want to do something about it. Children learn from watching us fight. Let's acknowledge, first and foremost, that it is uncomfortable for our children to see us fight, but that doesn't mean it's not valuable. We want to be very sensitive to the fact that children need their parents to be okay in order for them to be okay. 

And children are smart—trying to hide the fact that you're fighting doesn't work. You have an opportunity to help your children learn about healthy conflict, rupture, and repair. So what are ruptures and repairs? Basically, just fancy words for everyday behaviors in the life of a family. Ruptures are those disagreements or arguments that make most people feel uncomfortable. Setting the stage for healthy conflict with respect, perspective-taking and making sure both people's thoughts and ideas are valued can make disagreements feel safer for children. 

Repair is the act of forgiveness and recovery. Repairs are vital to the health of the family. Modeling both ruptures and repairs for your children will give them the skills to help them in their own relationships. I've got a newsletter out this week with more information about rupture, repair, and giving kids some control when they're uncomfortable. You can sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. 

I recorded these sessions with Mary nearly a year ago, and she recently sent me an update about how the family has continued to manage change. 

49:33  Mary:  Our two kiddos are so much more in rhythm and in step with sharing space and sharing parents together. I think we really crossed over when the baby turned about six months. Something got easier. Things were predictable, rhythms, needs, sleep needs—things really started to click in as a unit. Antoine and I continue to work to be on the same page. We are certainly not always on the same page. But it is, it is work, and we're doing it.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

50:17  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  Come back next week for an episode all about books. Author and educator Deborah Farmer Kris joins me to talk about how important books are to your child's well being and the many benefits of reading aloud. 

Subscribe to Is My Child A Monster wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss an episode. And if you like what you hear, tell a friend. And if you're looking for parenting help, you can apply to be a guest on Season Three at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury and Mia Warren. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for listening. 

And this week, remember: Healthy rupture and repair start with mutual respect. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury