Giving and Receiving Feedback with Special Guest Dale Rubury

Do you need feedback? Of course you do. We all do! But giving and receiving feedback whether it's from or to your child or co-parent can be challenging. Feedback can often feel like criticism and can even feel invalidating. This episode is all about giving and receiving feedback skillfully so that you or the other person doesn’t become defensive or shut down. Today’s episode welcomes back Leslie’s daughter Dale Rubury who shares how she moved from the defensive stance as a child to the open and willing stance as an adult.  

Time Stamps:

• 3:18 Feedback is part of communication in all kinds of relationship
• 3:55 Defining Feedback as nonjudgmental information about their behavior that is intended to help someone grow
• 7:49 Why is feedback so important 
• 9:00 The person receiving feedback has complete power over HOW they receive it
• 9:07 What is RODBT? Radically Open Dialectic Behavior Therapy Fact Sheet
• 12:55 The faith of parenting means you believe that the child heard you
• 16:18 Why some kids have more difficulty getting feedback than others
• 19:05 In public some kids will receive feedback differently than when they are at home. It may be known as masking (click here for more information)
• 21:18 Notice and name their reaction
• 21:25 "Did i just say something was invalidating to you"
• 22:20 Watch out when the child gives feedback to you the parent
• 23:30 It’s the parent’s job to model receiving feedback for the child
• 24:33 Give kids time and space to learn to accept feedback
• 27:40 “Is this a good time to give you feedback?”
• 33:03 Use the metaphor of a buffet
• 37:49 Tips on receiving feedback
• 38:34 Recovering from invalidation
• 40:19 Not everything has to be processed, sometimes it’s healthier to let some things go

Resources:  

• Sign up here to be a parent guest on Is My Child a Monster? Podcast
• Radically Open DBT Fact Sheet
• Leslie’s Video:  Stop Repeating Yourself
• Leslie’s Newsletter on I-Must-Have-Done-Something-Wrong Street

Leslie-ism: Growing as a parent is about being open to new ideas, open to learning, and open to feedback.

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury. A special

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:03  Dale Rubury:  I would often hear feedback as criticism, or interpret it as I was doing something wrong. And I think the risk there is you end up kind of spiraling into the shame.

0:22  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  Nobody really teaches us how to receive feedback growing up. They also don't teach us how to give it. And there is a way to both give and receive feedback skillfully to help prevent that shame spiral. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting therapy podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations. And no, your child is not a monster. 

Before I dive into this episode, I want to invite you to come and be a guest on the show. We're recruiting families for Season Three right now. Maybe you, or someone you know, could use some extra parenting help. If you're interested, visit ismychildamonster.com to apply. 

So now back to feedback. Feedback is part of every relationship: parent, child, spouses, siblings, colleagues, friends, co-parents—you get the idea. And it's an essential part of communication. Feedback came up in several episodes this season, including Mary and Antoine, Hannah and Alex, and George and Louise. And giving feedback is part of what I do professionally. So I want to take the opportunity to really focus on what it is. My daughter, Dale Rubury, who is joining me today, had a hard time taking feedback growing up because she often perceived it as criticism. And it took patience and practice for her to learn that it wasn't. And as a parent, I had to learn to give feedback skillfully as well. 

Dale is currently enrolled in a graduate program to become a physical therapy assistant, and I'm so thrilled to welcome her back to the show. 

As a reminder, though I am a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. A lot of this episode focuses on giving feedback to children, but the same ideas apply to all relationships. And feedback can feel like conflict, but it doesn't have to. So let's begin.

2:48  Leslie:  Hi Dale.

2:50  Dale:  Hey mom, how's it going?

2:51  Leslie:  It's good. It's so great to see you again. And you're back. You're back for another episode.

2:57  Dale:  Yep. And this one, I think we're talking about feedback, which is a really interesting topic, and I think a big part of just general communication with anyone. So, yeah, do you want to start off with, what is feedback and why we're talking about it today?

3:12  Leslie:  Okay, well, you just said something very important that I want to highlight, which is it's part of all of our communication. And so as we wrap up Season Two, you can go back and listen to almost any episode; I'm a) giving feedback; b) we're talking about feedback, very specifically, how to give feedback to children and to co-parents or to partners. And there's more to it. There's giving feedback and receiving feedback, and they feel different, and they're both very important aspects of feedback itself. 

So what is feedback? Well, I'm not a good and bad person, but there's good feedback and there's bad feedback. In essence, there's feedback that's effective and helps a person, and there's feedback that may not be effective and may be very challenging to hear and can actually do damage. So obviously, we're going to talk about how to give feedback that is effective. And what I mean by that is feedback is designed to give information to another person about their actions. It's not a judgment on the way they are in life. We're not judging a person, we're not judging their personality, but we're giving non-judgmental information to another person with the intention of helping them grow. 

4:40  Dale:  So I know feedback, in people's minds, I think, is often thought of as criticism, both when it's given and when it's received. Is that, does that tend to be true? Is most of feedback criticism or that can be taken constructively? Or is it more…more general?

5:03  Leslie:  Okay, so that's a great delineation, and that's the difference between, I would call judgmental feedback and non-judgmental feedback. So when you're giving feedback with a tone of really, you-should-have-done-that, there's a tone in there of exasperated or just tired of it, and I've-told-you-before kind of feedback, it's more like criticism. And the purpose is, when you're giving it is and we're going to talk about this at the end. 

We're going to really focus on how to give, I guess you can call, constructive feedback. But I'd rather call it effective feedback that's useful to the other person. But then there's the variable of how someone receives it. How someone receives feedback is so important because there are many reasons why some people will hear it as criticism. Maybe we should get into some examples, because you're right here with me, Dale.

6:03  Dale:  I mean, I've, I've struggled with, probably, as most people have struggled with hearing feedback. I think I struggle with it most when it feels like it doesn't align with my perception of myself; like, if the feedback, let's say, is about my integrity or being honest, something I hold as a very core value and a perception of myself. And so if I hear feedback that sounds like it's in opposition to that, I think I get very defensive right off the bat. And I wonder, is that probably how most people respond to feedback, is knee-jerk being defensive right off the bat?

6:52  Leslie:  Yes, and we have a fancy word for that. And when you perceive it as that, it can feel very, very…the feedback can feel very invalidating. So we might say it's invalidation. And there's two factors here. It's how the person is giving it, because they may be giving it in a judgmental, invalidating way. Truly, that can feel hurtful. Or the person may be, like you said, quick to respond, defensive, knee jerk, impulsive: “I don't want to hear that. You're telling me that I've done something wrong. I don't want to hear that.” It may not be the intention of the person. So there's a lot that we can do, and it's complicated, because we have multiple factors here: how you're giving it, how the person is receiving it, who the person is. Yeah, that's really why it's tricky. But why is it important? 

7:46  Dale:  Well, like you started off, because we're constantly getting and giving feedback, it's I think, a huge part of just day-to-day communication, whether it's between friends, co-parents, kids, like you said. Employers and employees is, I think, another big one. So, yeah, I think it's just constant. And I think it can be the difference between going through life, taking things personally, you're hearing a lot of criticism; or being viewed as somebody who gives a lot of criticism and is very judgmental, versus somebody who kind of can hear information given about themselves and kind of decide whether or not they take that in. 

You talked a lot about the importance of both giving and receiving feedback. And something I think I had to learn was that those things don't have to be linked. I don't have to…if I'm the one receiving feedback, that feedback doesn't actually have to be given perfectly for me to receive it in an okay way. Because a lot of times I would want to try to control the other person and go, “Okay, well, you didn't give that feedback well, so that's on that's on you.” Whereas in reality, I actually have complete power in how to receive it. 

And it's something I learned actually in my therapy, my RO DBT therapy last year, was that I could just take feedback. I used to think I either had to agree with the feedback to accept it, or I had to defend against it; whereas, in reality, I can take the feedback, I can hear the feedback, and actually not agree with it, but also not have to defend it. So I used to think there was only that one option. The therapy almost gave me permission to hear the feedback and just let it exist as feedback and not something I had to defend or correct. 

9:50  Leslie:  And so you clarified one important distinction—that I want to move back to what you just said—that acknowledging something doesn't mean agreement. That acceptance is not equal to agreement. So when you can hear someone giving you feedback, accepting it means you're just hearing it and accepting the fact that this person has said these things to you. Whereas you can decide in the moment or later, “Do I agree with that person, or do I not? Do I agree with them 5%, 10%, 90%?” and that's up to you. So like you said, the person can actually give you feedback that's not great, and you can still take it in. 

So let's start with talking about parent-child feedback. Do you remember being a kid, what that was like for you?

10:43  Dale:  I feel like I probably didn't receive it very well. I think I often would react in a defensive way, or in a way that if it didn't make sense to me in that exact moment, for whatever reason, whether I was in an emotional mind or I just couldn't, couldn't logically, because I had a very logical brain, and I couldn't logically understand how it made sense in the moment, I think I'd push back. And probably not the best way, and just say, “Oh, that's stupid, Mom,” when you were trying to give me feedback.

11:18  Leslie:  I did hear that a lot, especially when I was giving you those skills, “It's stupid, Mom.” And so that was a really, really good example of: here I am giving you something, non-judgmental information about your actions, and you were telling me it was stupid. So parents, when you listen to this, you know that you have some kids that you can share your ideas with and share their feedback with. And those kids smile and make it easy for you. And then there are children who, like Dale, was more rigid in your way of accepting things. And if it didn't fit what you were thinking, you would say no. You would say stupid. You would become…you would tell me it was stupid, or become defensive.

12:04  Dale:  I think an important part, to just jump in, is even if you didn't hear me receive it well, you didn't keep saying it, you didn't try to drill it in. Because I think also an important thing is say the feedback, but then also don't try to control how the person, especially a child, but anybody, how they respond to it. You're giving feedback because it's believe it's an important thing to let them know, and then just leave that be. 

12:37  Leslie:  Yes. We don't want feedback to turn into nagging. And nagging is really repetitive feedback. So I love how you said that, because we want to say it once. And I actually, I talk about the faith in parenting. I believe that it went in. I believe you heard it. I believe that you might make use of that feedback at another time. At 22 years old, you called me and said, “Mom, you got to tell those parents you work with that the skills you taught me work.” That was the first time I heard that you accepted the feedback, the skills and all of that. 

So yes, a parent needs to be able to offer feedback, and I have some ideas about how to offer that feedback. But I do want to make one thing clear when we are talking about the difference between giving feedback to children versus giving feedback to co-parents. And again, there's a lot of sessions where I talk about this in the podcast, is when it comes to our children, I put the onus of responsibility that the parent needs to give feedback as skillfully and as effectively as possible. Because the child doesn't have those skills yet, and we cannot expect the child to have those skills when we're giving feedback. It is up to us. It is up to us as parents to try to be as skillful as possible. 

And people might have one child, might have several children, and why do some children accept feedback, and why do other children not accept feedback? What does that tell you about the person? You know, I've dealt with so many different kinds of kids, and I think one thing that's important to understand is why there's such a diverse way of responding to feedback among children. We have three kids in the family. You're one of them. Can you talk about what you noticed? Did you notice any differences between you and your siblings, or just for yourself? 

14:41  Dale:  I mean, I was definitely the highly sensitive kid of the three of us. I also, as we've talked about in other episodes, really struggled with feeling like I made a mistake or being wrong. And those two things probably played the biggest role in how I received feedback. So I would often hear feedback as criticism, or interpret it as I was doing something wrong. 

And I think the risk there is you end up kind of spiraling into the shame of feeling like you did something wrong. You might shut down, throw a tantrum, I probably did a combination of those things. I probably led with, actually, a lot of anger, if I think about it, because as a kid, that's kind of where I'd go to.  So yeah, at least for me, I think I would just often hear it as a correction again, unless it was said in a way that was very, I guess, constructive. But even then, I feel like if there was any sense that I felt like the feedback was telling me I messed up or did something wrong, I would go to a place where I wasn't receiving it well.

16:04  Leslie:  So let's look at the kids just like you that do have really legitimate reasons why it's tricky for them to receive feedback. They're not doing it because they're bad kids. They're not doing it on purpose. They're not doing it to push your buttons. I think that's really important for parents to hear. Why you had difficulty was your sensitivity, was the way you thought. You had black-and-white thinking. Your brain works in: what's right, what's wrong? And you're a very principled person, but when you're getting feedback, it doesn't fall into a right-and-wrong category. That's the problem. 

When you're giving feedback, we're not looking for, “Oh, you were right, you were wrong.” It's non-judgmental, and right and wrong automatically is a judgment. So when your brain is working that way, we have to understand—the parent needs to understand that that child needs to hear it differently. I want to jump into how to give them feedback, but I'll hold my horses and just say that. 

So we have sensitive kids. We have kids who think right-and-wrong. And as you said, you think you were bad, or you thought you must have done something wrong, because you also had that ideal of, “I'm trying to do things perfectly. I'm trying to do things always right. So if you're giving me, (what we call constructive feedback), I must not be perfect, therefore I go into the shame.” 

Neurodivergent kids as well have this high sensitivity. Especially with someone like ADHD, they may just be feeling like all they ever get is people telling them what to do, how to do it, how to do it better, and it's exhausting. Or the highly sensitive child like yourself, there's something that appears in that population called Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria, where they actually have difficulty accepting it because their interpretation of the events, the interpretation of what someone said, is taken as rejection. And so there are ways we can help our children, but they may be born this way, and that's the first step for parents. 

18:23  Dale:  Let's say a parent follows the tips you're going to kind of talk about, and is giving that feedback in the most non-judgmental, the best tone—everything—and their child is still receiving it as something negative. How can a parent kind of help coach? Because as a kid, they kind of need help coaching and learning how to receive that feedback, even if it's given again in the best kind of “best way possible.” 

18:57  Leslie:  Okay, so what if you've done very skillful feedback to your child, and they still don't handle it? They still have a hard time. And as you said, they can shut down. They can have a tantrum, they can get defensive. What is that about? Well, I started to explain that it can be the right-and-wrong thinking in their brain. But the thing I want to also point out is that some children, because of the way they think, the perfectionism or the rigid thinking, the black-and-white thinking, they end up having a lot of shame, or a core belief about, “I must have done something wrong.” And they think about that over and over again. 

So I'm going to take a jump to my husband—your dad. Because as a therapist, I love giving feedback, right? It's my favorite thing in the world to do, and so I have that insight I want to share it. It's very exciting. It's like we both have all this information we want to share. And he had a core belief that if I gave him feedback, it's because he's done something wrong, because he just, like you, thinks about things in right-and-wrong.

20:09  Dale:  Oh, is that where I got it from? [Laughter]  

20:13  Leslie:  Yes, yes, absolutely. That's where you got it from. You can definitely have that conversation with him. So we want to help people understand. And again, this can get us in: How do we give the feedback? So we realize that for some children, it can be challenging. If it is challenging for your child to accept feedback, what I highly recommend is what you said earlier, Dale: don't take it personally. Give them space. Don't respond. Don't repeat yourself. And don't nag them.

20:45  Dale:  This makes me think, would it be helpful…One of your skills you always talk about is kind of naming something for your child. So let's say they receive it in a way that makes you think, “Oh, I wonder if they thought they're in trouble, or they did something wrong.” Maybe naming that and say, “Hey, did what I say make you feel like you're in trouble or did something wrong?” Is that a way to use that other skill that you often talk about? 

21:15  Leslie:  Yes. You can notice and name their reaction: simple way of saying it is, “Wow, did I say something just now that was invalidating to you?” “Yeah, you told me I'm wrong.” So that's a key line that I love: “Did I say something that felt invalidating to you? I didn't intend it to be invalidating, but you may have felt it as invalidating.”

21:38  Dale:  So then it brings into the conversation, less of this, “Why did you take that wrong?” And just being curious and figuring out how the child might have heard it. Because you're going to assume how the child should have heard it based on how you think you gave it. So I like that, because it gives a way for the parent to actually hear how that child heard it, which is really what's going to matter. Because it doesn't matter how you said it, if the child is interpreting it in a certain way,

22:13  Leslie:  Great. So two things about that—I love what you just said. One is that when you say, “Wow, did I say something that felt invalidating to you?” Now the parent needs to be ready for feedback. Yes, the child is going to give you feedback. “Yes, you're the meanest mommy,” or, “You don't care about me,” or, “You hurt my feelings.” Then the parent better not do what the child just did and get defensive and start defending yourself and explaining yourself. 

22:48  Dale:  So we're saying, “I didn't say it that way. I said this.” And just repeating it in the same way, because you think it was said fine.

22:59  Leslie:  Ugh. It gets into such a Catch-22 because everybody's feeling invalidated. As soon as you ask that question, the child is going to give you feedback, and they are not probably skillful yet, so they're going to say what they feel. And actually what they're doing is telling you how they feel, probably more than giving you feedback. And it's your job to model for them how to accept receiving that feedback. And I know you can talk about that, but the willingness to accept that feedback that they're giving you information—yes, you said be curious about it. That's one of the ways that'll help you or your child accept feedback. 

So let's go back to the idea that you give them feedback. Now you've said to them, because of their reaction. They have a big reaction, you say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. My guess is I said something that felt invalidating to you.” Now I also don't think you need to do that each and every single time, because you would have that reaction 20 times a week or 10 times a week. So you need to use it sparingly, and yes, then you want to ask that question once in a while, at another time. Give them space. Don't repeat yourself. Don't become a nag about that. Have faith that it went in. Have faith that they heard what you said, and leave it at that. 

But if you do check in with them, be prepared to accept the feedback they give you and model what it means to receive feedback. And give them time. Give them time to learn. I mean, it took you a long time, Dale. I love you dearly, and this is…ugh, I'm giving you feedback. I knew, and I could hold the space that you needed before you could learn to accept feedback, and you did it in your own time. 

24:54  Dale:  Yeah, well, I know as a child, I existed a lot in emotion mind—something you've talked about before. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's easy to receive feedback when in emotion mind. And so giving that time, whether it's a short amount of time, like 10 minutes, to get out of emotion mind. And then there will tend to be reflection on it, even if it's in the childlike way of thinking about something your parents said once you've calmed down a little bit. Or long term after 15, 20 years, it all still has an impact.

25:34  Leslie:  It does. It really does. 

[Music: Quiet Summer Evening by Roman Kostiuk]

25:46  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  You've been listening to parents on Is My Child A Monster?, and now it's your turn. We're looking for parents and caregivers to join me on Season Three. We'd love to hear from all kinds of families with kids between ages four and 18. There's no problem too big or too small. If you or someone you know would like to volunteer for some free parenting help and are comfortable sharing your sessions publicly—with all names changed, of course—please visit ismychildaminestra.com to apply. 

26:24  Leslie:  All right, let's get into some tips for giving feedback. Okay, I have something called setting the stage. It's an idea that I believe helps you think about: How can I give feedback effectively? So the first thing you said just now was if you're in emotion mind, it's not the best timing. So I might have feedback about how my two children were playing, the fighting, or whatever was going on, but I'm not jumping in in the middle of their fight to give them feedback. I might wait till I'm picking you up from home, from school, or we're out on a walk, or another time when you might be more willing and less vulnerable. Because if you're very vulnerable in emotion mind or whatever, you're not accepting that feedback. 

So your timing, it's really important. It's the same thing with a co-parent. If a co-parent is trying to parent the child, you stepping in and saying, “Oh, by the way, if you did this differently…” I would be very upset. I would be like, “This is not the time for that.” And so timing is important. 

27:32  Dale:  I could see timing could be half the battle, if not more.

27:37  Leslie:  Yeah. So here's a question: “Is this a good time to give you feedback?” 

27:42  Dale:  It's straightforward. 

27:43  Leslie:  Yes. So straightforward. Really good thing to do, and that's the first step of setting the stage. “Is this a good time to share? Is this a good time to give you feedback?” Be prepared. Nobody likes to hear, “No,” but they might say, “No, I've got a lot going on right now,” and then you're saying to yourself, “But they never want feedback, and they're never going to accept it.” Okay, that might be a problem. But deal with that problem. Always begin…I really like to begin with getting consent. If you want someone to accept your feedback, it is a relational interchange, right? It's an interpersonal exchange. So I'm going to ask consent, “Is this a good time to share?” It addresses the consent and it addresses the timing.

28:32  Dale:  Yeah, that's great. And it also gives the power to the person receiving feedback to get into that mindset. So even if it's a kid, I'm imagining, like, even if they're not in emotion mind. If they're playing, and they're busy playing, and you try to get feedback, and they're like, I'm I could…I feel like I'm getting agitated right now. [Laughter] Like playing with my Playmobil and being like, “No, no, don't bother me. I'm in this other world right now. “And so empowering them to then get into the mindset of, “Okay, I've paused my game. I'm ready to hear it.”

29:08  Leslie:  Right. I know parents might be thinking, “Well, my kid’s never in the mood for it.” Okay, let me address that, because if your child really doesn't want to hear that and they know something bad is coming, you might then say, “Hey, I do want to give you a little feedback, and I don't think you're really excited for that. It's not like I'm saying, ‘Hey, let's go get an ice cream,’ right? So is there a way that will help you? What could help you accept the feedback?” 

Or maybe they don't want it orally. A lot of kids…there's a secret about driving your kids to an activity where it's not eye-to-eye. Eye-to-eye is much more direct, much more vulnerable. People feel much more vulnerable when I talk to you and I look you in the eye. A lot of great conversations can happen in the car, when you're not eye-to-eye with your child. You're looking ahead and they're looking out the window. That's a really good time. Or be creative and write down the feedback. One of the things that happens when we give feedback is kids get ready for a lecture. 

30:18  Dale:  Yes, that's a good point.

30:21  Leslie:  Right? And they don't want a 20-minute lecture. So one thing I love to do, whether it's a co-parent, whether it's a child, say, “Hey, I need two minutes. I need two minutes to share an idea. “Just that.

30:35   Dale:  So hearing all these tips and the setting the stage, I can already feel my body reaction if I was to hear these phrases of, “Can I have two minutes of your time?” It already de-escalates my reaction to it, because if we struggle getting feedback, then anytime we think we're going to receive it, that defense goes up in anticipation for it. So I like that these setting the stage tips immediately bring all those things down before you even begin, whether it's tone, whether it's the setting, asking consent. All these things feel already in my own body like, okay, puts me at ease, which is going to allow me to receive the feedback, probably a lot better.

31:30  Leslie:  Beautiful. So you started to talk about the intention, or as I call it, setting the stage. Naming your intention of giving feedback is also very important, because, as we said before, some people think it's criticism. Some people think, “I must have done something wrong.” And so when I name my intention, “I would like to give you feedback that I think…” Or usually I like to use the word, “information.” “I would like to give you information that my intention is to be helpful, if for any reason, it doesn't feel helpful, I totally get it.” So now I'm putting out my intention that I'm giving helpful information. It might be hard to hear, and I might say that as well. So I have information that I think is helpful and I know it may not be easy to hear. 

32:20   Dale:  I like that word, “information,” because it doesn't feel weighted with anything. It doesn't…it feels very neutral. So yeah,I like that instead of using the word feedback when setting the stage.

32:36  Leslie:  And I've had to practice this in therapy because I'm giving some tough, tough information or feedback back to people when something's not working for them. And one metaphor I use, and I'll explain this when I'm really giving some difficult feedback, is imagine I'm laying out a buffet right now. It's in front of you. I'm going to put some ideas just like we put different foods on the buffet. And when you go to a buffet, it's your choice to pick up what you want. So I'm going to put some ideas down. Some of them may be hard to hear, and I respect that you can pick up the information that's going to be helpful to you. It's a beautiful metaphor that means, “It is not my intention to make you do what I want you to do,” and that's often what parents are trying to do. They're trying to get their kid to do what they want them to do. “I'm giving you feedback so you will be a better person.” 

33:35  Dale:  I love the food metaphor, obviously, because it's food. But it's a perfect metaphor because, at a buffet, you're not forced to eat any of it. Actually, you have the freedom to eat some of it. You could also have all of it, and you can choose how much of it you want. So if a part of it feels maybe helpful, you can pick that up. You can also always go back, which is why I love buffets. But in the moment, if your plate is full with stuff, you don't have to also have the brownie in with your salad. You can come back later and go, “This piece of information or this food I'm not feeling right now, but later, it might be helpful.” But it's still all going to be there,

34:21  Leslie:  Right. Because the key is in order to give feedback effectively, we hope that the person is most willing to be open. So we'll talk about receiving feedback in a minute. But that's our goal, to hope that the person is in a willing state of openness so that they can hear it. Parents have to watch out for their expectation that, “If I give you feedback, you are going to listen to me. Otherwise, you're being disrespectful. If you don't listen to me, I'm trying to help you. Put your clothes on this way. Go outside with your gloves on under your coat, not over your coat.” I can give you feedback, and then I want to respect that you're going to make your own decisions, even when you may not take my feedback. 

So yes, we've got the buffet idea. We've got the intention, that I've named. The intention also needs to match your tone. So if I really mean that I'm giving feedback, I can't have a tone, “You better be listening to me.” So really check in with your own tone. And I think you said this earlier, use the I noticed language, rather than you did this, you should do this. So get rid of you should, and you did or any of that; and go with I noticed. It sort of protects us, to get us into that non-judgmental stance,

35:46  Dale:  And it's more disarming. 

35:50  Leslie:  Yes, exactly. Another one was, sometimes feedback can get a little bit humorous or teasing. We can add a little bit of humor or teasing to feedback. You’ve got to be careful with that, because if it's not reciprocal, and if the other person doesn't feel in a light mood, or doesn't feel like they're taking it in that kind of teasing, joking way, then stop. It's not working, but it can work. You know, we can say, “Oh, I guess, I guess that backpack really loves to live on the floor again, doesn't it, Dale?” Or, “That backpack just has a mind of its own,” or something like that. If I have a lightness to me and you laugh, and we both laugh, it's feedback, but it's gentle.

36:38  Dale:  And it's a way of making a little light of it. It's a way of not making it so direct at the person like, “You did something wrong.” It's like, “Oh, the backpack is on…the backpack loves the floor.” And so it's not done…again, tone is important, because it could be done in that passive, aggressive kind of way. But like you said, if that humor is reciprocal, then I think it's actually a great way, too. And a way I think our family used a lot to give feedback in a lighthearted way,

37:10  Leslie:  So that's setting the stage for giving feedback to children. And I'm going to say it's the same tips for giving feedback to co-parent, a partner, a colleague, a friend. And you do not hear the don'ts. You don't have to tiptoe. Be direct, but use those other skills I said it before: Don't repeat yourself, watch out for your tone, don't nag. 

But let's go on to receiving feedback, tips for receiving feedback. So as I said, we want to help people have an open mind and willingness. So you need to check in with yourself when you're receiving feedback. Is this a good time for me?---again, the timing of it. Using willing hands is a Dialectic Behavior Therapy skill where you literally open your hands, open them up, as if someone's going to put a basket in your hands and you're just going to carry it. That openness allows us to carry the weight of a feed of feedback. And I'm not gripping it, I'm not holding on to it. I'm open with it, I'm going to allow it to sit there, be there, and I can decide what to do with it. I can decide how I want to respond to it. 

There is another skill in DBT that we say, recovering from invalidation, and these are also similar ways that not all feedback is invalidating. If it feels hurtful, let someone know, “Hey, that sounded like it was mean. That sounded like you were telling me I did something wrong.” Give the person the feedback that feels like it was hurtful—you can tell them. But again, as you said earlier, even if someone gives you feedback unskillfully, ineffectively, invalidating, you get to decide how you want to receive it. So you can just respond by saying, “Okay.” That's actually a recommendation.

39:16  Dale:  Which I love, because it's a neutral answer to just say, “Great, I hear you.” And I feel like it also gives you time to sit with that feedback, which I've actually seen a lot of my friends use or partners—they know about themselves that they don't respond right off the bat in the best way. And so they'll hear something and go, “I'm going to sit with that for a little while, because I want to see how it feels in time.” And I think that's a beautiful thing, because our knee-jerk reaction to feedback often might not be the full picture of how we feel about the feedback or how we'd want to respond to that feedback. So I also love the tip of receiving feedback and knowing you don't have to respond fully to it in that exact moment. 

40:12  Leslie:  And just saying okay to yourself actually allows you to let it go, because not everything needs to be processed. Sometimes just letting it go is going to be a little easier on your wellbeing, your mental health, and that's all it takes. We don't have to process everything. So that's a tip for receiving feedback. And the last one is another DBT, Dialectic Behavior Therapy, skill called—it falls under the skill of check the facts—but it's practicing finding other interpretations. It's a specific part of that skill. Finding other interpretations allows us to practice flexible thinking. 

And as we said earlier, if you have a child that is more dichotomous in the black-and-white thinking, the right-and-wrong thinking, your brain doesn't work in these flexible ways. So when you say, they're very upset. They feel that rejection, sensitivity. They come home and they say, “So-and-so wouldn't let me play at school today.” And I say, “Okay, tell me what happened first.” I would just acknowledge their feelings. But if I got into it, I'd say, “All right, let's practice some other interpretations.” 

And they may have trouble with that, because their brain doesn't work that way. So I'm going to say, “Let's play a game of other interpretations.” And we might make up five different ways, and I might give them four out of the five ways. And I'd say, “You don't have to agree with these interpretations. We're just playing the game and we're just practicing being flexible.” And I might say, “What would your friend Karen say? What would your friend Amanda say?” 

And when they do that, they might think, “Oh, yeah. Amanda would probably tell me, forget those kids—who wants to play with them anyway?” Okay, that's an interpretation, or, “They didn't see me on the playground. So you can borrow other people's thinking to help you be more flexible. You can help your child be more flexible. And again, just because someone is 45 years old, or 55 years old—or whatever age you are, 25 years old—not everyone thinks flexibly. 

So we can help each other, but that is an important tip for receiving feedback. The last thing is taking that non-judgmental stance that,”This person is not telling me I'm good or bad.” So it might be challenging your core belief that I must have done something wrong.

42:43  Dale:  Yep, that makes sense. And so just taking that non-judge… I feel like they all connect. Taking that non-judgmental stance and going, “Okay,” and letting it, letting it pass, letting it go off your back, like water on a duck’s back. 

43:04  Leslie:  Take what's useful, come back to it and see if maybe it is useful. Yes, there are mean people out there, and if that's really, truly, how you feel, then you do not need to take their feedback.

43:16  Dale:  But you also don't have to defend it, right? Well, there's so many good, good tips and so many good ways to put this into practice.

43:27  Leslie:  And I practice it. I practice it with you. I practice it with my husband—your dad. I practice this in everyday work. So I do hope it's helpful, and once you've got the skills of giving feedback to your child, use those same skills to be effective when giving feedback to a co-parent, or, as you said, any other adult in our lives, because it's part of our communication.

43:56  Dale:  Yeah, I'm sure those skills, like you said, have a lot of overlap. And you might finesse it a little bit between talking with a kid versus an adult, but as most of your skills are on this podcast, they're transferable to almost any type of relationship. 

44:14  Leslie:  Yes, yes. So thank you for having the conversation. I love being able to put it into words and share it with everyone. 

44:22  Dale:  Yeah. It's been a fun conversation. 

44:24  Leslie:  Thanks, Dale. 

44:25  Dale:  Thanks, Mom.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

44:29  Leslie Cohen-Rubury:  This episode really lays out some step-by-step strategies for being effective at giving and receiving feedback. I want to encourage you to take what you heard and give it a try in your relationships, with co-parents, with children, with friends, and with colleagues. And don't forget, it takes practice. So if you don't get it quite right the first time, that's okay, keep trying. Because I know, personally, when you do get it, it really feels like you've accomplished something. And I'm not just preaching. I really, really practice what I preach. 

And on that note, Season Two comes to an end, and we're taking applications for Season Three guests. So if you or anyone you know, could use some parenting support, visit ismychildamonster.com to apply to come on the show. 

While we record our next season, please keep in touch on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. I'll have lots of between-season content there for you, as well as updates on the Season Three launch. I want to take a moment to thank all of our listeners. I hear from many people that they share this podcast with friends, family, and colleagues, and that's great. I'm thrilled that you're listening and sharing this podcast with others. I really hope that you're learning, and I really hope this is making a difference. That's why I'm putting this podcast out there: For you. And this week, remember: Growing as a parent is about being open to new ideas, open to learning, and open to feedback. 

The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, AJ Moultrié, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury and Dale Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for listening. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury