Sarah Part 2 of 3: When Parents Struggle with Control

Kids are not the only ones who are controlling and trying to get what they want. As parents we do the same thing.  We really want what we want and we act in controlling ways to achieve those ends. This is the second session with Sarah, mother of 2 boys, 12 year old James and 15 year old Noah where we explore topics, including when one sibling tries to parent the other, when children feel responsible for their parents’ emotions, how to let our kids make mistakes and how to be a less controlling parent. 

Time Stamps

4:55  Words with strong negative connotation - Negotiation, control and dictating - 5:35 reframed as giving our child personal power with a voice and agency.  This is respect if you change your perspective 

6:15 Finding the middle ground vs Finding a synthesis

7:04 When your child likes to negotiate…let them have the last word

7:10-13:40  Role play - A one way conversation vs a two way conversation

• One way conversation works when the child is likely to be dysregulated
• Two way conversation works when we both want to share our ideas and perspectives

13:32 Sometimes we need to accept that our child is going to have their big emotions

15:50 Validation and reflect back and appreciate the positive in your child’s behavior

• Parents often miss when a child is being respectful

19:35 When the child worries about disappointing the parent and acts like a “good kid” to prevent you from getting upset. This is how a child tries to take care of the parent

21:40 Children often worry more about their parents being upset than the sibling being dysregulated

• 22:14 Assume that your child may be carrying a burden and ask them directly if that may be true 

24: 50 Role play with validation

27:08 When someone escalates, they probably feel invalidated. 

• Validate in order de-escalate the child’s emotions

28:15  Keep it short and sweet.  Say LESS - listen twice as much as we speak

32:00 If you say or do something that you are not happy with, own it. Own your own reactions and ask for a redo

33:59 The antidote to controlling your child is to practice acceptance of the moment

35:49 Sarah’s own advice “in the uncomfortable is where we learn

36:11 Learning to be less controlling is letting your our children make mistakes or have their feelings

Resources:  

Leslei’s Handout on a Dialectic Synthesis

Leslie’s Video on Listening to Your Own Advice

Leslie-ism: “In the uncomfortable is where we learn” by Sarah

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury.  A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

[00:00:00] Sarah: He's a good kid, but I have to be okay with letting go of control and when he makes a mistake, how I navigate that so he doesn't feel that I'm disappointed. I don't want him to ever feel like that.

[00:00:21] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Sometimes it's hard to see our children make a mistake and letting go of that control is an essential skill in parenting. feel that their controlling behavior is protecting their child from the discomfort of making a mistake. But without mistakes, we can't learn. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is Is My Child a Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster, just misunderstood.

Today is my second session with Sarah, a mom with two adolescent boys, 12-year-old James and 15-year old-Noah. Last session, we focused on James and his autism and ADHD diagnoses. This session, we're spending more time talking about Noah, who is the, quote, good kid. We unpack how the good kid/bad kid dynamic is extremely common and incredibly detrimental to everyone in the family. I know we all love the good, obedient child, but understanding why they behave that way may give you some real concern.

In this session, we explore topics, including when one sibling tries to parent the other, when children feel responsible for their parents’ emotions, and how to be a less controlling parent. So now as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention.

So let's begin.

[00:02:09] Leslie: Hi Sarah. 

[00:02:13] Sarah: Hi Leslie. How are you? 

[00:02:15] Leslie: I'm doing well. How are you doing today? 

[00:02:18] Sarah: Great, thank you. 

[00:02:19] Leslie: Why don't you start with feedback from last session and what you think you'd like to focus on this session. 

[00:02:26] Sarah: So we've obviously been doing some work with James. We focused on James last session. 

[00:02:31] Leslie: Yeah. 

[00:02:32] Sarah: And trying to negotiate or manage big emotions when it comes to asking him to do things or in particular getting off his gaming whenever we need him to get off. So we've worked really hard on that over the last few weeks because he got a new gaming system for Christmas. So he has obviously…that's brought it up next level. 

[00:02:57] Leslie: Yes. 

[00:02:57] Sarah: So we've been doing some work on those. And we think at the moment, I think the negotiation has worked. Big emotions are still bubbling away at times, but we have definitely worked out where we've met halfway with him.

So he has some control in how he gets off the machine, but we also get the outcome of him getting off the machine. So we sort of give him a timeframe. So we will say it is roughly an hour—roughly an hour—but we are happy to negotiate if you're in the middle of a game that helps the big emotions not necessarily boiling over all the time.

[00:03:41] Leslie: Okay. So when we were talking last session, I mentioned a skill called cope ahead. And I also mentioned an idea that I like to use called setting the stage and giving him a little bit of a heads up so that we can practice flexible thinking, thinking about how he wants to react. Did you try any of that?

[00:04:01] Sarah: Yes. So we talked about if we are frustrated and emotions are bubbling, what are we going to do? 

[00:04:07] Leslie: Mm-hmm . 

[00:04:08] Sarah: So his coping mechanism with that is, I'm going to go outside and pet the dog and talk to the dog, which is just sort of taking him away from his emotion for a hot minute. And then it's calming him down to the point where then he can walk back in the house. And then we can work through the next stage of when he'll get back on the machine and how that's going to work again. 

[00:04:31] Leslie: Got it. Got it. It will be a work in progress. 

[00:04:35] Sarah: Definitely a work in progress. And this morning we've already had a negotiation. 

[00:04:39] Leslie: Yes. So I could join you on the podcast. So, we are negotiating all the time, but it's about allowing him some control. And some decision making as well, instead of us trying to dictate to him, because it doesn't work for him. 

[00:04:55] Leslie: Okay. Strong words, control, dictating. What was the other word you just used? 

[00:05:01] Sarah: Negotiation. 

[00:05:02] Leslie: Negotiation. Those are very, um, oh, I don't know, maybe coming from a military background, as you've talked about. But interesting choice of words, because when you say negotiation, he needs some control and negotiation. I actually can call that respect. I just want to give him…when he has control, parents often think that letting a child have control is letting them have power. And those words have a negative connotation where I actually believe in a child's personal power. 

[00:05:38] Sarah: And I love that. I love those word changes because I think that's at the start of this parenting journey with James, my husband would always say he's not going to win another negotiation. And I'm like, it's not a win lose. It's just, we need to find a middle ground so that we all feel heard. 

[00:05:57] Leslie: So I'm going to be very picky here. We're not even trying to find a middle ground. We're trying to respect wherever you are and wherever your child is. So middle ground means everybody's got to move and meet in the middle. But dialectic thinking says you stay where you are—I'm going to respect where you are. And I'm going to stay where I am and I'm going to respect where I am. When we have to solve a problem, that's where people think we have to find a middle ground. And actually, and I think I did this a little bit with you last time, we can look for a synthesis rather than a middle ground.

[00:06:36] Leslie: A synthesis is: what's going to work for you, what's going to work for me, and finding some flexible options and flexible thinking to promote that kind of variation in problem solving. So, that's one thing. And getting back to control, getting back to power, we're going to call those things respectful. 

And here's a little something I want to teach you about the child who loves to negotiate. 

[00:07:06] Sarah: Please.

[00:07:07] Leslie: Let them. [Laughter] The idea is: let them have the last word. Let it be. I know this can sound strange, but what I call a one way conversation. So what I mean by a one way conversation doesn't mean that I'm not talking, but it means I'm sort of reflecting back and I'm validating just what I'm hearing so that I can give the child feedback because I'm reflecting back what they're saying to me.

So if you want to role play for a quick second, one of the ways that James was negotiating with you. And I will show you two different versions, one where it's a two-way conversation and one where it's a one-way conversation. Okay? 

[00:07:53]  Sarah: Perfect. 

[00:07:55] Leslie: All right. Well, you're James. I'm going to be you…without the accent. [Laughter] Go for it.

[00:08:02] Sarah: “So mom, I'm in the middle of the game. I need to play the game out. I know that you've got the appointment, but I need to play the game out, but I will definitely be off before your appointment.” 

[00:08:13] Leslie: “You know, it's an hour. I have an appointment. We got to go. Let's go.” 

[00:08:17] Sarah: “But Mom, I cannot get out of the game because I'll lose my ranking and I can't do it. It's just not going to happen. I need to finish the game.” 

[00:08:23] Leslie: “I know you want to keep going and I'm not giving you a choice. It's now time to get off the game. We're leaving. And you know that” 

[00:08:31]  Sarah: So now it would spiral into screaming. 

[00:08:33] Leslie: Great. Okay. Let's go with the…I'm going to do the same thing. You say the exact same thing. I'm going to do what I call a one way conversation. 

[00:08:43] Sarah: “Mom, I know you've got a meeting, but I need to finish the game. I'm in the middle of the game. 

[00:08:48] Leslie: “Wow. It sounds like the game is really important and it sounds like you're aware that I have a meeting.” 

[00:08:54] Sarah: “I know. And I know that you want me to get off. I know you do. And I will get off, but I really just got to finish the game right this minute.” 

[00:09:01] Leslie: “Okay. You're telling me you're going to be getting off and you're telling me that you need another minute.” 

[00:09:07] Sarah: “That's right. I need like five minutes, Mom, but I will be off before you need to get to your meeting.” 

[00:09:12] Leslie: “Okay. I hear you saying you can be off in five minutes so that I can get to my meeting on time.”

[00:09:19] Sarah: “Correct. I'll be off, Mom.” 

[00:09:21] Leslie: Okay. Now, what was the difference between those two methods? 

[00:09:27] Sarah: No screaming. But it also was definitely you were…he was hearing what he was saying that he was going to do. 

[00:09:35] Leslie: Okay. And in the first one, how did you feel being James? 

[00:09:40] Sarah: Okay, so, I felt probably in the first one that I was being harassed.

[00:09:43] Leslie: Oh…Yes. Doesn't feel good.  

[00:09:46] Sarah: Does not feel good. No, definitely. And being pestered when I'm trying to, I'm in the game and I just need to finish the game, but you're now distracting me by pestering me. 

[00:10:01] Leslie: Did you feel that way in the second role play? 

[00:10:06] Sarah: Absolutely not. Big difference. 

[00:10:06] Leslie: Big difference. And I didn't even, I wasn't yelling in the first way. And I would have, I think I could have taken it even a little further by saying, “This meeting is really important. I have to get there. I've told people I'm going to be on time. This is a very important meeting. I don't want to be embarrassed by being late.” Like, I could have gone on and on about my situation.

[00:10:28] Sarah: Totally. Which is what I often do. 

[00:10:30] Leslie: Which is what parents often do. Good. Thank you for admitting that. So we try to give them all the reasons why they need to understand me. Does he want to understand my situation? 

[00:10:44] Sarah: Not really. 

[00:10:45] Leslie: Not really. Is it going to help him get off? 

[00:10:47] Sarah: Not really. 

[00:10:48] Leslie: No. It's going to make him either feel guilty or harassed, as you said. It's not really going to work. That's what I call a two-way conversation. A two-way conversation where I'm having input about my perspective, and you are having input about your perspective. That's a great time to have a two-way conversation when we come out of a movie. And I want to know what you thought of it, and you want to know what I thought of it.

Then a two way conversation is really important. Or if we're having a discussion about, “Let's plan the weekend. What are we doing this weekend?” “Well, I'd love to do this and you'd love to do that.” That's a two-way conversation. But when a child is emotionally dysregulated or bound to get emotionally dysregulated, as we know in this situation, then I am not going to engage in a two-way conversation because all they care about in that moment is how they're doing and what they're doing.

And getting what they want. It doesn't always mean getting what you want, though. So in that situation, let's take it one more time. To me, I'm going to respect my child because maybe my track record with my child is: if I give him five more minutes, he'll be in the car faster than I will be.

I know that, yes, I don't really want to give him five minutes. I wish he would turn it off when I said, and I actually know, maybe I have some history knowing that he will actually get off in five minutes. 

But let's say I know he's not the kind of child who will get off in five minutes. He says it, he wants to promise it. We're going to role play it one more time, which is where it's still a one-way conversation. I'm going to add something else and you're going to see. 

[00:12:42] Sarah: Okay….”Mom, I will be off. I know that your appointment is coming up. I'm going to be off the machine. I'm just in the middle of the game.”

[00:12:48] Leslie: “Wow. I hear that you're aware that I have an appointment, which I appreciate, and that you're not ready to get off your game yet. “

[00:12:55] Sarah: “I will get off, but I just need to finish this game. And if I leave, I'll lose my ranking. And then that is, like, dire.” 

[00:13:04] Leslie: “Okay. So I am going to get in the car right now. And I'm going to expect that you will meet me in the car immediately since I need to leave now. I understand that might make you really, really upset. I understand it's ending your game before you are ready to end your game. I'll see you in the car. I realize you're going to be pretty disappointed.” 

[00:13:28] Sarah: So then I think the screaming would start.  

[00:13:32] Leslie: Yes. I don't know that I can avoid the screaming. So I have a choice as the parent to say, “You know what? Give my child that five minutes. I can respect him with that. I know it's going to work.” Or I'm actually going to say, “I need to get in the car. I'm going to get in the car now. It's okay if you have your meltdown.” 

[00:13:52] Sarah: So that is okay sometimes.

[00:13:54] Leslie: Yeah. 

[00:13:55] Sarah: Because sometimes you can't avoid that. 

[00:13:56] Leslie: No. Exactly. Now, I don't really want to segue right away, but I'm going to say this because you've said it before to me, which is that you want to deal with your letting go. You feel like sometimes you're controlling. Is that right? 

[00:14:10] Sarah: Correct. 

[00:14:12] Leslie: Okay. So your son is trying to get what he wants, but as a parent who feels they are controlling, it's only because you want to get what you want.

[00:14:22] Sarah: Totally. 

[00:14:23] Leslie: You're doing the same thing your son is, right? 

[00:14:24] Sarah: Exactly. 

[00:14:25] Leslie: You want your son to listen to you—tell me if I'm wrong—you want your son to listen to you without an emotional breakdown. 

[00:14:32] Sarah: Correct. 

[00:14:33] Leslie: Okay. I'm going to say that's the first place you can start letting go of control, because it's okay if he has a meltdown.

When we try to avoid it so hard because we're trying to control the situation. That's where The control actually is control. When he's trying to advocate for himself, I don't know if that's control. I think he's just trying to communicate his needs and his desires. But I do think parents try to control their children.

[00:15:05] Sarah: Well, I think also, I'm trying to avoid the confrontation. I don't want the confrontation. “I just need you to do what we need to do right at this minute. And that's what we've got to do.” 

[00:15:17] Leslie: I get it. 

[00:15:18] Sarah: Especially if you're in a time push. “Like, it's a time crunch. I've got to go.” 

[00:15:29] Leslie: Absolutely. So the difference between that one-way conversation and two-way conversation is one-way conversations are best when the other person is in the emotion mind or going to be in emotion mind. When they are, when they are in a more emotional state and you really want to stay out of it, don't bring yourself into it. Just validate, listen, and reflect back to them what they're saying. 

And you know what? Kids love the fact that…he knew that you had an appointment to get to. We usually disqualify that. We're just like, “Get off, get off, get off.” Meanwhile, he keeps saying, “Mom, I know you have an appointment. Mom, I know you need to get out of here.” That's a beautiful thing. 

[00:16:13] Sarah: He knew. And he was respecting that I had an appointment. 

[00:16:17] Leslie: Yes. And even if he's not the best at time management at this moment, he's at least being respectful. And you know what? I'll take respect  over time management any day. I mean, they're both very important. I don't mean to downplay one, but he's respecting you.

And I want to raise that in my child, and I'm sure you'd like that in your child. So he's respecting that you have needs in this situation. He's not just being selfish and thinking about himself. 

[00:16:52] Sarah: I love that.

[Music: Nature Calls by Folk_Acoustic]

[00:17:11] Leslie: So what else would you like to bring up? 

[00:17:13] Sarah: So I guess I would love to talk about my 15-year-old, Noah; who is a very different child to James, which is great. I love that. I love that they're so different and they own who they are. 

[00:17:26] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:17:27] Sarah: He is the eldest, obviously he is always toed the line. He does the right thing. He does what he's asked when he's asked. But now he's turned 15 and he's becoming his own man. Which is also amazing to watch, but also incredibly frustrating at times for me that obviously, which we've just discussed, about a very structured environment that I have obviously got background in. And I just, I don't want him to feel that he can't make a mistake.

Because he has to learn, I know he has to learn from mistakes, but I need to let control of that and be the person that guides him, not who is controlling every single move so he doesn't make a mistake. And that's super-challenging at the moment for me, because I want to give him rope to be a 15-year-old. 

And he's a good 15-year-old. He's not going out to parties—that doesn't interest him. He's got his little part-time job that he's working really hard at. He plays his sport. He's a good kid. But I have to be okay with letting go of control. And when he makes a mistake, how I navigate that with him, so he's not, doesn't feel that I'm disappointed. I don't want him to ever feel like that. 

[00:18:54] Leslie: Well, let's go back a moment. I mean, he's a firstborn. So this is not uncommon with firstborn. But as a parent who runs a tight ship like you do, I have a few ideas. One is when he was younger or even now, would you say that he was a people pleaser?

[00:19:14] Sarah: No, he runs to the beat of his own drum. He's not a people pleaser. He likes to do his own thing and he's got a great group of mates. But he doesn't try and please people to be accepted. No. 

[00:19:30] Leslie: But how about you? Does he want to please you? Does he do what he's told to do because he doesn't want to see you upset?

[00:19:38] Sarah: I would think yes.

[00:19:40] Leslie: Okay, so he's in a way you think he might be taking care of you so you don't get upset and that's why he behaves like a good boy. 

[00:19:51] Sarah: I think he does. I don't think he's trying to find naughty things, but he's, he's definitely not…I don't think he likes when he disappoints me or he perceives that he's disappointed me.

[00:20:04] Leslie: Okay, good distinction. And something that I would like to bring to the table with him. “Hey, I wonder if you work really hard to make sure I don't get upset. Are there any situations where you work really hard so that I don't get upset, because you think I might get upset?” 

[00:20:31] Sarah: That would be an eerily interesting conversation.

[00:20:35] Leslie: And it's a conversation we don't typically have. He may not even think of it, but you might open up a window for him. to say, “Oh yeah, Mom, I am. I don't want you to get upset.” And I see how maybe he sees how you get upset with James. “And I don't like that, Mom, that really bothers me.” I've known, I've worked with many, many people, adults who grew up with a sibling that was challenging. And what was most upsetting was that their parent was so upset with the child. They didn't care that their brother or sister was outrageous or yelling. They didn't care about the emotional dysregulation. It's the opposite of what the parent feels. So the sibling often looks and says, “I don't care that you're upset.”

But then when they see their parent, they get very upset that their parent is upset. 

[00:21:35] Sarah: And probably with the challenges we've had with James over the last 12 months… 

[00:21:39] Leslie: Yeah… 

[00:21:40] Sarah: Um, I think that he has dropped comments similar to what you've just said, which is really interesting because it probably…I just didn't think he was too phased with what was going on with his brother. But maybe he could see that his dad and I were so stressed and involved and upset and anxious that maybe he's picked up on that that's what James's behavior does to us. I never thought about it like that. 

[00:22:14] Leslie: Yeah. So I would broach that subject with him and maybe just see if he's open to it when you're driving in the car or something together, on a walk together.

And if you start with, “Hey, I'm curious.” And then go into, “I'm curious how it affected you.” Or say, ”You know what, I've got an assumption. And then just state it, “I have a feeling that seeing Dad and I upset and stressed out when we were dealing with some of James' behavior may have been really upsetting to you.

[00:22:56] Sarah: Hmmm…Never even considered it. 

[00:22:58] Leslie: Never even considered it. And either in that first conversation or maybe a later conversation, I might say, “Do you think you work really hard to not get Dad and I upset? And do you think those two things are connected, meaning observing what happened and trying not to get Dad or I upset?” 

So now we're getting to: How do I give my child permission to make a mistake? Well, we first have to get to the point of, is he feeling responsible? Is he feeling responsible for your wellbeing? 

[00:23:34] Sarah: That's sad. I don't want him to feel that he's responsible for my wellbeing. 

[00:23:43] Leslie: I know. Our children do. Our children automatically do. And through my experience, both professionally and personally—I think it was my son that taught me that lesson—is they carry a burden that we need to assume is there, even if they're not acting in any way, that's a problem. But children really do. They take on, they take on responsibility that we don't want them to.

[00:24:09] Sarah: And I think he does get super frustrated with his brother's behavior. And he will get grumpy. And he's like, “I don't know why he has to behave like that.” And I'm like, “His behavior is his behavior. We just let him do him. Just like you do you. But don't take it on board because it's his behavior, not ours.

[00:24:29] Leslie: I'm going to come back to that right there. Your description, which is lovely, is a two-way conversation, and I want to go back in that moment. Remember, I said, when someone's emotional, that's when you want to go to the one way conversation. So when he turns to you and say—what did he say about his brother?---I don't like the way he behaves or something like that.

[00:24:50] Sarah: Correct. Yes.

[00:24:29] Leslie: Now I'm going to say that to you and I want to hear you try to…we're going to role play again, but you're going to be you and I'll be Noah. “Oh, I can't stand the way James acts some of the time. It's so difficult. I don't get it.”

[00:25:07] Sarah: “I know, mate, but it's his behavior. It's not our behavior.”

[00:25:10] Leslie: Okay. I want you to try again. 

[00:25:12] Sarah: Okay. 

[00:25:13] Leslie: That's about, you're trying to teach him something. You're trying to help him. Stop helping him. Stop teaching him. Reflect back. 

[00:25:20] Sarah: Okay. 

[00:25:21] Leslie: “Mom, he's so annoying. I can't stand his behavior.” 

[00:25:28] Sarah: “I can hear you, mate. I know it's frustrating and I can hear that you're frustrated with his behavior.”

[00:25:33] Leslie: “He's really frustrating. Like, I can't believe all the things that you have to do just for him. You're always giving in to him.” 

[00:25:43] Sarah: “I know, mate. I can hear how annoying it is for you, but it's also something that Dad and I can manage.” 

[00:25:49] Leslie: Okay. Do you feel the difference? 

[00:25:52] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, I do. 

[00:25:54] Leslie: In the first way you are so tempted to teach him and to help him and to change his thinking and all of that. We don't necessarily need to change his thinking. We need to let him know, in a way, a little bit more understanding of why he's thinking what he is thinking. 

[00:26:16] Sarah: So, actually asking. So, could I actually ask him to describe what parts of the behavior annoy him? 

[00:26:21] Leslie: Exactly. I was going to say there was more you could do. Excellent. So go ahead. 

[00:26:26] Sarah: Okay. Go ahead. 

[00:24:29] Leslie: “James is so annoying. I just can't stand him. He's really bothering me.” 

[00:26:34] Sarah: “I can hear that you're frustrated, mate, but what parts of his behavior annoy you?” 

[00:26:38] Leslie: “Well, he gets really upset and then you do everything for him. Like the other morning you made breakfast for him. Why do you do all these things for him and make breakfast for him and give in to him? That's what's annoying.” 

[00:26:54] Sarah: “Okay, mate. I can hear that that is frustrating, but I'm very happy to make you breakfast as well. If that's what you need.” 

[00:27:01] Leslie: “That's not what I need. Why do you make breakfast for him?” Now, you see how he got upset right there? Because you're trying, you went to solving the problem. “I don't need you to make breakfast for me. No, don't make breakfast for me. Stop making breakfast for him!” [Laughter] 

Now, I am not picking on you because you're doing it wrong—that's not it. I do the exact same thing. But here's the trick—and that's why I want to demonstrate it—is when the other person escalates, it means you need to validate them. You didn't. Right then and there I say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What did I not understand?” And then he would say, “Well, because I don't want you making breakfast for him. 

So keep going. “No, I don't want you making breakfast for him.”

[00:27:47] Sarah: “Why don't you want me making breakfast for your brother? What part of that is frustrating for you?” 

[00:27:51] Leslie: “Because he needs to learn to do it for himself., Mom—we're all grownups. He needs to do it for himself.” 

[00:27:58] Sarah: “I hear, I hear that. And I think that is super important. And I hear what you're saying, but right now he can't do that for himself. So Dad and I just need to make sure that he eats.” 

[00:28:07] Leslie: “Well, he's not going to grow up to be able to do it for himself.” 

[00:28:12] Sarah: “Maybe, maybe you're right, but we also…right now…”...yeah…

[00:28:18] Leslie: “So maybe you're right…” Stop there. Keep it short and sweet because if you say, “Maybe you're right…” Try that again.

[00:28:25] Sarah: “Maybe you're right.” 

[00:28:27] Leslie: “Well, that's not good. That's not good. If he does grows up and doesn't know how to make breakfast for himself.” 

[00:28:36] Sarah: Okay. So de-escalation straight away. 

[00:28:38] Leslie: Yeah. And, and it softened him. And so at that point, I might say, “You know what? You are a kind soul. You are concerned about your brother. And that might be a big responsibility because you're not even a parent, but you are concerned about his well-being.” 

[00:29:04] Sarah: and I didn't think he was concerned about his well-being and maybe that's what the root of it is.

[00:29:08] Leslie: Yeah. I don't know—we're role-playing this, so I don't know. I mean, I haven't met Noah or James. But the idea is that when we explore—and that's what you're doing in the one-way conversation, you're exploring what's going on in his head—that's where we start to learn, “Oh, I think you want to be in charge of your brother.”

So another very typical example, I saw it with my own grandchildren. A few years ago, we went to this ice palace place, which is all ice. And the older brother is eight, and the sister was five, or something like that. And we're walking around, and she's sliding on everything and wandering off and doing this and the older brother was like going to get her and grabbing her and saying, “Come back, come back.”

And you could see, he was very anxious and his dad very sweetly said, “Come back. I'm taking care of her. Don't you worry. I've got her.” And so the dad was trying to reassure his son that he was the parent, right? “Don't worry. I've got her. I've got her.”

And it eventually became probably annoying to my son because my grandson didn't stop doing this. I went over to him and I said, “You really want to make sure your sister's okay.” And he said, “Yes, because what if she gets lost? What if she gets hurt?” Now you're understanding the child's annoying behavior. 

Like, all the parents want to do is, “Stop it. Just go play. Don't worry about your sister. That's my job.” But if you tell them that, that's not helping them because we're not getting to the root of why they're doing it. We're not getting to the cause of why they're doing it. So as you bring these questions about Noah, who's 15 years old, we're trying to get to the root of the problem. 

[00:31:03] Sarah: Yeah. Why it bothers him so much.

[00:31:04] Leslie: Right. And why is he probably being the good boy who doesn't make mistakes? 

[00:31:12] Sarah: Probably because he can see how stressed his mom and dad are. 

[00:31:15] Leslie: Exactly.

[00:31:24] Sarah: So what if he does, let's say he makes a mistake. Let's just use a low level. Let's say he just flunks a class at school. Let's just use that. My thing is that I need to learn how to…because I do show emotion on my face straightaway, which is me. But I don't want him to feel that it's the end of the world because the world has not ended by him flunking class. 

[00:31:46] Leslie: So you are saying if he came home, told you that he failed a class that you would have an expression that is almost…a pretty fast expression. 

[00:31:53] Sarah: Probably. Yeah.

[00:31:54] Leslie: Okay. So own it. “Wow. I think I just made a really upsetting face or maybe even a very judgmental face,” or, “What did you just see in my face?” I would own it and then say, “Can I do a redo?” 

[00:32:16] Sarah: Awesome. 

[00:32:18] Leslie: “Can I redo that? I made a face because yes, it surprised me. I think I was surprised, but that's not, I don't want you to think it's bad. I don't want you…my face may have also made you feel like what you did was bad or what you did is wrong. And I would like to say loud and clear: That's not how I feel.”

[00:32:37] Sarah: Okay, great. Perfect. So, own it. 

[00:32:39] Leslie: Own it. If it comes out and whatever, just say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, that was impulsive. That came out before I was able to think. And I would like to give you my wise mind reaction, not my emotion mind reaction.” 

[00:32:54] Sarah: Awesome. I love that. 

[00:32:55] Leslie: “I would like to take a pause, which I didn't do when you walked in and told me that. And I would like to say…” Here's the one way… “Hey, you got an F in that class or on that test. How are you feeling about that? Before I give you my response, I want to know how you're doing.” 

[00:33:16] Sarah: And do I necessarily have to give him a response? Because often his response is when, and it has happened in the past, he gets quite upset and I have said to him, “I can see you're really upset by that result. You weren't expecting that.” And he's like, “I wasn't because I worked really hard.” And I said, “Okay, well that's just a bit of a guide. No problem. Next. We've got to move on to the next.” 

[00:33:39] Leslie: Right. So you mentioned you wanted help with controlling. I heard a little bit of control there and the control was very subtle, which is he had a feeling he was disappointed in himself. He tried, he didn't expect it and you were quick to say, okay, let's move on. 

[00:33:59] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:33:59] Leslie: The control is sometimes when we don't want our child to have that emotional reaction, or any emotional reaction…

[00:34:05] Sarah: …and keep them safe. 

[00:34:06] Leslie: …and keep them safe. So when you heard him say, “I was disappointed, or I didn't expect that,” you want him to move on. I'm going to suggest, as an antidote to control: Stay there. That's hard. 

[Laughter]

[00:34:28] Sarah: It really is. 

[00:34:29] Leslie: Oh, I know, I know. It's like, Oh, why do I want to stay there? I want to get out of there. It's yuck. Okay, so I want to stay there. And if you say nothing and he says, “Wow, I really didn't expect that.” And you just sit there and you wait. He might say, “Are you disappointed in me, Mom?” He might say, “I don't know what to do.” He might say, “Do you think it's okay?” More might come out or it might even come out, “I'm always messing up, Mom. I'm always disappointing you.” It's like, wow, where did that come from? But when we give our children a little space, it's a beautiful thing.

Having less control means actually trying to speak a little less and give our children more space. That's a great way to deal with that. 

[00:35:34] Sarah:I love that. Say less. 

[00:35:36] Leslie: Say less. We have two ears, one mouth. It was designed to remind us to listen twice as much as we speak. 

[00:35:49] Sarah: Love that. And I think the learning for him comes in, and as I do say it all the time to my boys, in the uncomfortable is where we learn.

[00:35:56] Leslie: Right. So that's a great piece of advice. Listen to yourself as you give advice to your children. Now repeat what you just said. 

[00:36:10] Sarah: The learning is when we're uncomfortable. That's when we're learning.

[00:36:11] Leslie: Okay. And you asked me: how do I get less controlling, because you said, I want to be less controlling. And the way to do that so that your child can make some mistakes or have their feelings. Because some children think having negative, big feelings is a mistake. So letting them have those feelings is giving them permission to not be perfect. But you're saying that's where the learning is, is when we're uncomfortable. 

So I want to wrap up on the idea that you're going to think about allowing yourself to be uncomfortable. Or when that discomfort shows up to not move on, to just stay. I don't think you need to stay there forever because that's a problem, but just stay a little longer than what you typically do. I think that will be a gift to your boys. 

[00:37:08] Sarah: And let them work through it.

[00:37:10] Leslie: Yeah. 

[00:37:11] Sarah: And learn. 

[00:37:12] Leslie: Right. And I think that when we model that for our children, they will learn it as well. 

[00:37:19] Sarah: I love that. 

[00:37:20] Leslie: Okay. Do you have any questions before we wrap up for today? 

[00:37:26] Sarah: No, I think that is a really good one. And I think that being able to have those conversations where I'm not trying to solve the problem. I love that. I love that because I'm trying to solve the problem as their mom and I don't need to solve their problems. 

[00:37:43] Leslie: No, you sound like you have boys that…they're thinkers, they're aware. You've brought a lot of emotional intelligence to your children's lives. Now, let them experience it and have practice at it. You take them to a batting cage, you let them swing and swing and swing. All we need to do here is let them practice at dealing with emotions. 

[00:38:07] Sarah: I love that. I love that. Thank you.

[Music: The Beat of Nature by Olexy]

Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Sitting with emotions, letting kids make mistakes, letting kids solve their own problems—these are three ways of understanding how, as a parent, you can let go of control. I love that Sarah came to me and her original question was, How do I let go of control? But doing a little unpacking, we realize she's not really comfortable sitting with both her emotions, those uncomfortable emotions, or her child's uncomfortable emotions.

And she knows that her children need to make mistakes. She didn't understand how to give them permission, how to allow them to make mistakes. Well, do you see the connection between being able to sit with those uncomfortable emotions, witnessing your child make mistakes, in order for them to solve their own problems, in order for you to let go of that control?

So, it's really a connection between you being okay with those uncomfortable emotions, letting your child make mistakes; and that gives them the room and the opportunity to really solve their own problems. So that's what we're trying to get to, how to help your child solve their own problems, because that's where they learn.

Remember, if you solve the problem for your child, yes, you've done a great job of showing me that you know how to solve their problem. But what you want and what we all want is for our children to solve their own problems because that's what they need when they grow up. And I know that's what each and every parent wants.

So in order to let go of your control, practice sitting with those uncomfortable emotions. And actually I want to come back and repeat something that Sarah said: In the uncomfortable is where we learn. Wow. What an incredible realization that Sarah came to in this session. 

The funny thing is she made that statement to teach her children how to be uncomfortable and how to learn from those mistakes and discomfort. And now she's willing to be open and learn that herself. Thank you, Sarah, for being willing to self-reflect because as parents, if we help ourselves, we're helping our children. 

[Music: Acoustic Motivation by Coma-Media]

Join us next week for my final session with Sarah, where we talk about the heavy weight of shame on both children and parents. We also explore Sarah and her husband's mental health struggles and the way they address them within the family. 

Subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And if you feel so inclined, please rate and review on Apple Podcast to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com.

The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. And I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks for joining me.

Transcript by Eric Rubury