Is My Child A Monster? A Parenting Therapy Podcast

Sarah Part 3 of 3: When Parents and Kids Feel Shame

• Leslie Cohen-Rubury • Season 3 • Episode 71

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Shame is a common emotion but a painful one as well.  In this episode we talk about shame and its many forms.  Children feel shame, parents feel shame and we can unintentionally pass down shame to our children. This is my third and final session with Sarah, a mom of two boys James, 12 yrs old and Noah 15 yrs old. Sarah and her husband are both ex-military and we discuss the impact of military life on mental health and how that impacts the family. It may be surprising to learn that in this episode I also talk sitting with emotions and about “embracing the struggle”. 



Time Stamps

3:43 Learning to sit with mistakes, learning to sit with emotions, learning to sit with discomfort.

5:30 Being in the discomfort and in the unknown brings up anxiety

5:50 Taking hold of your mind: Definition of Mindfulness

6:05 Paced breathing turns off the sympathetic nervous system to the parasympathetic nervous system - exhale twice as long as the inhale

8:00 Mindfulness to current emotion skill - DBT skill 

  • This feeling is part of me, not all of me

11:59 A child who is struggling with their emotions is not “losing”, its living!

12:29 Get away from winning and losing language…all behavior is grist for the mill

13:13 Embrace the struggles - accept myself first and then change to improve

13:57 Trials of medications is tricky

16:45 Pay attention to the context - the timing of your child’s challenging behavior

  • Before starting a new school most kids get anxious even when they are excited
  • Observe and Describe or Notice and Name it
  • Use a rating scale about various aspects of the situation
  • Ask “what am I missing?” Look at the timing and the context of the situation

21:08 Description of Emotion Mind (DBT skill) also described as a “ring of fire”

22:30 Description of Wise Mind where you can begin to problem solving

27:15 Distraction is an effective distress tolerance skill but be careful not to use it to avoid your emotions

28:30 Walking the middle path

29:48 Raising emotionally intelligent boys

32:24 - 36:16  Being open about mental health struggles in the family reduces shame

37:08 How much information do you share with children?

38:03 There is a natural tendency for children to assume that “its their fault” when their parent is upset. Check in with your child!

40:26 Explaining that adults are responsible for their own reactions

43:12 Parents need to check in with their own shame “am I good enough”

46:20 How your actions to be fully involved with your children can have unintended consequences of pushing away your child

48:20 description of being an active listener so Children feel UNDERSTOOD

49:49 Active listening means taking a non-judgmental stance as resist the urge to be the “fixer”

51:00 Clarify the intention of a conversation - do you want to be heard or do you want advice?


Leslie-ism: It's never too late to address the roots of your shame.


Resources:  

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]


[00:00:00] Sarah: The shame is something. It's funny that you use that word, because I was the oldest child and I always felt like I was letting down my parents. As soon as you said that word, I was like, “Oh, that's hit me. Oh, I got that. Yep.”

[00:00:22] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: When we carry shame as parents, we run the risk of passing it onto our children. Just being human exposes us to feelings of shame and yet shame is rarely justified. Children feel shame when they feel like they are disappointing their parents, like this mom did growing up. 

This is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. I'm your host, Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and no, your child is not a monster, just misunderstood. 

This is my third and final session with Sarah, a mom of two boys, 12-year-old James and 15-year-old Noah. Sarah and her husband are both retired military who struggle with their own mental health, and Sarah shares openly how that impacts their family.

We also talk about shame in its many forms, like when James feels responsible for upsetting his parents, how Sarah feels shame for not being perfect, and the shame many of us carry from childhood that impacts how we parent. And we talk about looking for context to help us figure out what's going on when our children are struggling.

So now as a reminder, all of the names and identifying information have been changed. And though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. 

So let's begin. 

[00:02:07] Leslie: Hi, Sarah. How are you today? 

[00:02:10] Sarah: Well, thank you, Leslie. How are you?

[00:02:12] Leslie: I'm doing okay today. And so you got here sitting here on our Zoom. Um…you got on and you were like, “I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.” Right? You came two minutes late. 

[00:02:27] Sarah: I know, but if you're not five minutes before, you're late. 

[00:02:32] Leslie: Oh, so you have a little rule in your head that if you're not there five minutes before, you're late.

[00:02:38] Sarah: Absolutely, and I think that is part of my military background. 

[00:02:41] Leslie: Okay, that makes total sense. I understand that. Were you like that even before you entered the military? Like a kid, did you like that kind of, well, I might call it rigidity or predictability, 

[00:02:56] Sarah: I definitely like the predictability of where you have to be. But I think that it's been more heightened, especially being in the military. 

[00:03:04] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:03:05] Sarah: Definitely. But, yeah, I was very anxious because I was wasting your time. I didn't want you to be waiting for me. 

[00:03:12] Leslie: Oh my goodness. You thought you were wasting my time, which is very considerate, right? That's very considerate. And the dialectic of that is: Do you think I can't handle someone being late? 

[00:03:27] Sarah: I think you probably could, but I feel like that it reflects on me that I'm…I value time and I know that your time is valuable. So I felt terrible that I was trying to coordinate children that are at the back end of their holidays.

[00:03:44] Leslie: So the big thing here is, last time, we ended our session where we were talking about learning to sit with mistakes, learning to sit with emotions, learning to sit with discomfort. And two minutes late—I understand for you—is very uncomfortable. 

[00:04:05] Sarah: So uncomfortable. 

[00:04:08] Leslie: So uncomfortable. I actually was having a great conversation at the moment that, you know, I was waiting—I fill my time. But the idea is that sitting with that emotion is still uncomfortable for you. So in the last two weeks, you didn't get rid of that. You didn't become a pro at sitting with discomfort. 

And I would say it's good practice for everyone to practice being a little uncomfortable. So did you, do you think that's something you would continue to work on? Because I can guarantee you that the more you work on it, the more your children, through your modeling, will learn that it's okay to be uncomfortable. 

[00:04:46] Sarah: I think I definitely have to work in being in the uncomfortable. 

[00:04:50] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:04:51] Sarah: Absolutely. And it is. It brings up a lot of anxiety being in the uncomfortable because I can't control it. Absolutely. 

[00:04:58] Leslie: Yes, that makes so much sense. And anxious people don't like to be in the unknown and don't like to be in the uncomfortable because it brings a physiological discomfort. It's not just, oh, it's uncomfortable, it actually is a felt sensation. 

[00:05:14] Sarah: Totally. 

[00:05:15] Leslie: Do you know where you feel it? 

[00:05:16] Sarah: In my stomach.

[00:05:18] Leslie: Yeah. 

[00:05:18] Sarah: I start to feel unwell and then I start to sweat. 

[00:05:23] Leslie: Okay. So you start to sweat. Your stomach starts to grumble. You might end up having to go to the bathroom or not feeling well. I know—you're laughing cause I'm being very public here. But the idea is that those physiological responses can also respond to you taking hold of your mind.

That's a definition of mindfulness. So, taking hold of your mind just brings your attention: Okay, I noticed my stomach is grumbling, is in knots; in however you want to say it. And maybe you rub your belly. Maybe you stretch, maybe you do some breathing. The breathing is so key. If there was one thing you were going to do to sit with that discomfort, I would recommend paced breathing.

Pace breathing is when you exhale twice as long as you inhale. So what's happening to your body when you start to sweat and your stomach starts to go, you are in a hyper-aroused state. hat's a state of arousal and what we want to let our body know is: No, I've got this. I'm okay. So you can use those words, you can use self talk. But that pace breathing turns off your sympathetic nervous system, which is fight-and-flight—I gotta go, I gotta do something, this is not feeling good—to parasympathetic nervous system. So with that exhale twice as long, you shut your system down to rest and digest.

It takes practice, but if you do the breathing and you tell yourself, I've got this, I'm okay. I'm uncomfortable. Name it. Notice it and name it. I'm uncomfortable. I'm a little late and I'm okay. 

[00:07:11] Sarah: Hmm. Which I use those words with my children. I just don't practice it, Leslie. 

[00:07:16] Leslie: Well, you came here with such great questions about your children, like: How do I let them make a mistake? Or what we translated that to is: How do I let them sit with discomfort if I'm having trouble sitting with discomfort? And so I love it that you're listening, you're taking this in. If you're willing to try some of these things, they're going to learn from you and they're going to learn the best.

[00:07:39] Sarah: I love that.

[00:07:40] Leslie: Isn't that nice? 

[00:07:42] Sarah: It's pretty cool. 

[00:07:43] Leslie: It is pretty cool. Okay. So it sounds like more work on that. I guess I could also name one more DBT skill. So I just named pace breathing, but there's another DBT skill called mindfulness to current emotion, which just says I'm going to accept this feeling that's here.

And one of the phrases I love when I teach that skill is to say: This feeling is a part of me, not all of me. 

[00:08:12] Sarah: Love it. 

[00:08:14] Leslie: So right there, when you're getting nervous about being late and you're not on time and you're feeling uncomfortable because you feel worried that you're wasting my time. You could notice: That's anxiety. I'm feeling some anxiety. And that's a part of me. That's not all of me. 

So did you learn anything by coming two minutes late and seeing me smile and talk about this? Did you learn anything? 

[00:08:36] Sarah: Absolutely. That it's okay. 

[00:08:40] Leslie: Yay! Yay.! [Laughter] Perfect. Perfect. Okay. We can go on. Yeah. That you're okay and I'm okay. Right?

[00:08:46] Sarah: I'm okay and you're okay.

[00:08:48] Leslie: Right. Now, the most important thing is that you're okay. Because not everybody on the other end is okay. Not everybody is in the mood and maybe I'm not always in the mood to have someone come in late. Two minutes, I don't think I've ever reacted, especially because I'm a five-minute-late-person most of the time.

But, um, see, my rule of thumb is you're on time if you're five minutes late. [Laughter] 

[00:09:11] Sarah: Okay. So it’s fine!

[00:09:12] Leslie: Right! 

[00:09:13] Sarah: I had time to spare. 

[00:09:15] Leslie: You did. I mean, five minutes late. Absolutely. Okay, let's move on. Is there something that's been going on that you would like to share or go over? 

[00:09:26] Sarah: So I guess that we spoke about James in the first session, and we talked about some diagnoses that he had, and some of those diagnoses have required some medication for him to be taking. Which is amazing, and I'm very grateful that we've got a way ahead for him. But we've had a bit of a regression where his medication was making him unwell. So, we've had to play around with his medication. Because obviously it's school holidays for us, so we've got a big period of time where we can get him ready for school. And we've sort of gone backwards and we're going back to school next week.

[00:10:04] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:10:05] Sarah: So for me that has brought up a lot of anxiety because obviously I really wanted him…we've done a lot of work to prepare him ready to go back to school. But also for us there's been a lot of behaviour fluctuations, where it has really challenged what we've discussed previously about how we respond to his emotions and the fluctuation of emotions. So that's been super challenging. In the last few weeks, we've had a really challenging period 

[00:10:41] Leslie: Okay…

[00:10:44] Sarah: It sort of breaks my heart as his mom, because I know that some of the emotions he can't control. He can't control. But for us as adults, we just sometimes want you to control those emotions at 11 o'clock at night.

[00:10:57] Leslie: Yeah, we're exhausted. 

[00:10:59] Sarah: Exhausted. But to his credit, I did actually use one of your strategies…because that's why I was a little bit late because he was gaming. And I got home from a medical appointment because I was running late. And I had to say to him—I hadn't pre warned him—and I said, “I need you to get off your machine in 20 minutes.” And to his credit, he did that, no problems when I explained what was going on. So then I feel like that's a win. We do have wins, but I just feel like we're just in a little bit of a tough transition period for him again. Which is hard.

[00:11:40] Leslie: Great. I have so many things going through my mind. The first one, just so I don't forget it, is you said this one felt like a win; that you said to him, even though you couldn't give him notice and that he got off without the big emotion. Shorthand, it's great. It feels good to say it was a win. I get it. And I would love to get away from the win and the lose. You know what I mean? Because when he struggles, when you struggle to parent him, and when he struggles to handle his emotions, that's not losing, that's living. 

[00:12:17] Sarah: Yeah…yeah. 

[00:12:18] Leslie: He's just living. You're just living. We’re really human. And humans and our self esteem is not one sided.

We're so well rounded, we are round human beings in the sense that we have strengths, we have weaknesses, we have those winning moments, we have losing moments, we have medium moments, we have dull moments—we have all of it. It's all grist for the mill. So if we call things good and bad or winning and losing…

…which is our whole society. I mean, it really is ingrained in us. So I get why we use that language. The only problem is everyone feels bad. Everyone feels badly because losing doesn't feel good. 

But if we said, if we reframed that and said, or thought of it differently and thought about it as yes, that was a struggle. Yes, that didn't feel good. And I'm going to embrace the struggles in my life. I'm going to embrace the hard emotions in my life because I don't want to cut off any part of me and I can work on them, but I do want to teach my child that we want to accept. And then change. I want to accept myself first for exactly who I am and then work on the things that I want to improve.

You were both having a difficult time these last few weeks, as you said. And now I want to go back to something you said, because you said you're doing trials of medication. It is so tricky getting the right medication. And some of the ADHD medications have really tough withdrawal at the end of the day.

I don't know if that's what you're seeing, or he just feels out of sorts. I'm not sure what it is. I'm not the psychiatrist or the psychopharmacologist dealing with his meds. And I know that it can be challenging both for the child and the parent when someone's trying to get on medication, that's going to be helpful.

[00:14:27] Sarah: And I think the part is, too, is that as his mom trying to watch him move through that too, is a struggle. 

[00:14:35] Leslie: Yes. And when I hear someone struggle, often I want to offer them, “Can I give you a hug?” So when I use the words embrace the struggle, it's almost like we're giving ourselves, giving our children, a hug when it's the hard time, which is lovely. I mean, right? Wouldn't it be lovely if we got hugs every time we were struggling? 

[00:14:55] Sarah: I did do that before, when he got off. 

[00:14:56] Leslie: Oh, good. 

[00:15:01] Sarah: “Thanks, buddy. Thanks.” 

[00:15:03] Leslie: So the struggle is…it's not fun. It's painful. It doesn't mean it's easy. And as we've talked about from the beginning of this session, sometimes we just have to sit with that discomfort.

So the third thing that went through my mind when you're talking about these last two weeks being tough is I believe he's going to a new school. Isn't that what you said? 

[00:15:27] Sarah: We have had a change of school. And we have started talking about that a little bit, which is interesting that you bring that up.

[00:15:35] Leslie: I would guess for anybody, and if you have anxiety, that's even worse, but I imagine for most people going to a new school can bring out anxiety, can be a little stressful. It's a change. 

[00:15:48] Sarah: Oh, totally. And I think also too, I'm not here for his first day. So that's also adding to…I think it's probably adding to a little bit.

So I've planned everything meticulously for his dad to roll it out. But yeah, you're right: I didn't even put that together, actually. 

[00:16:08] Leslie: Okay. So to me, the two weeks, but it happens here, you know, it's a, well, this is your summer. Here, I get more phone calls: mid-August or the beginning of August, when it's two weeks away from school, parents have no idea why their kids are having difficulty.

And I go, “Well, I'm going to take a guess that we've got school coming up in two weeks. And your child knows that. And it is not uncommon for a child to misbehave.” And I put that in quotation marks, “misbehave.” The emotions get big and the behavior gets challenging when they are feeling anxiety, but they don't know how to name it.

[00:16:45] Sarah: Yes.

[00:16:46] Leslie: So the first thing I want you to go do is say, “Hey, I wonder if…” notice it and name it, “...I am going to take a wild guess that you're going to new school and I'm not even going to be here. I wonder on a scale of 1 to 10, how uncomfortable are you? How anxious are you? How excited are you?” Just do a rating of a number of things.

[00:17:10] Sarah: That's a great idea because I have probably asked the question, but not asked in as much detail. 

[00:17:16] Leslie: I’d go right to right to the heart of the matter, with asking very specific questions. “How are you feeling about meeting new kids? What is your biggest worry? What's your most excited thought?” You can do it as a multiple choice.

You could do it as a check sheet. You can do as that rating scale. I like the rating scale on a scale of 1 to 10. You know, what parts of it are you excited about? And the more you sort of break it down for him, the more it opens up that, I would guess. You'll have to see. My guess is that if you give him some concrete things to respond to, he will open up with some extra things in addition to what you've brought up.

[00:17:59] Sarah: Because he's often, whenever I just asked, “Are you looking forward to it?” It's just, “Yeah.” And that’s it. 

[00:18:04] Leslie: Because that's right. And with your child who's struggling, I always let that struggle, that big behavior, communicate to me. And I ask the question, I say to myself, What am I missing here? And then I look at time and context, what's going on with the whole family, what's going on with the weather, what's going on with, you know, one thing or another. 

Right now, we've had a brutally cold January. And of course, January is dark. And when it's very cold—this area is not used to very, very cold—I get a lot more clients having a harder time. And so we want to zoom out and say, What else would help? Like, what am I missing? And so we zoom out to see if there's context that can help us understand.

[00:19:02] Sarah: And you give me a lot of context, for his starting school. 

[00:19:05] Leslie: Great. We’ve got the medication that's making him feel different. We've got the fact that you're not going to be there. He's starting a new school. He might be, it might be all excitement, but even excitement comes out, sometimes, in rough ways. And he doesn't have to fix it.

Just say it's really understandable, because he needs to know, “You know what? When I go to a new job, when someone goes to a new party, when whatever, new things bring on anxiety. So, I have a feeling I would feel the way you are feeling in this situation,” or whatever you want to share in terms of just validating that it's pretty normal to feel stress and uncomfortable before going into something new.

[00:19:48] Sarah: Love that. 

[00:19:49] Leslie: Okay. Did you have any other questions about how you respond in terms of, do you need any more ideas or strategies? Or is it more about accepting his big reactions? For you to be able to sit with the discomfort of, Well, here we go, it's not easy. 

[00:20:08] Sarah: I think I probably did it the other night better than my husband. I accepted his big emotions. Whereas my husband started to get dragged into the big emotions and respond with big emotions as well, which doesn't help the situation. But as we're all human, we have times where we respond to big emotions with big emotions. So, I think the sitting with the big emotions is something I practice every day with him.

And sometimes I don't have to respond to the big emotion. Great, great. I can let it slide for a hot minute, and we'll just come back to that when we're all at a state that is calm and we can talk about it. 

[00:20:57] Leslie: Oh, that's great. So I want to point out what was happening, because I like to name what's happening so that you understand, that your husband understands, that your son understands it. When your son was having a big emotional reaction, in DBT language—in Dialectic Behavior Therapy—we call that emotion mind. And emotion mind is when someone is there in that illogical intense state. If it was a temperature, it'd be hot. So we know that emotions can be intense and we would say he was in emotion mind.

I've also heard it described like a ring of fire. And so if someone is in this big, hot emotional state, which is illogical, if you try to help them when they're in that state, you often get burned. So the idea is to be able to observe what's going on with them without actually getting caught up in their state.

We don't want to get baited.And something happened while your husband was there. Maybe he was emotionally vulnerable that day. Maybe he was tired that day. Maybe he's just heard this one too many times. We all have our emotions. And in that moment, James's emotion baited your husband.

And so all of a sudden it's like, okay, now he's in there too. He joined him in the ring of fire. Now I've got two people in emotion mind. I don't know what you did to stay out of it, but what you said is when all the things come down—which is like when it settles and they return to a more wise mind—that's when we start to problem-solve. That's when we start to go back and say, “Hey, did you know what was upsetting to you? Did you know what was frustrating?” And then we can use some of our skills. But in that moment, we wanted the skill to notice and name or observe and describe the emotion you're in or the state of mind: “I'm in emotion mind.” 

[00:23:09] Sarah: Can you use that? So my question for you is, if he is in that state of mind saying that there, and then to him, “I can see that you're in emotion mind, I'm going to come back to you,” is that helpful or is it not helpful naming it when he's in that emotion?

[00:23:28] Leslie: I think…I think it's helpful. Now, I think there are ways some kids really don't like to hear it. In the beginning, it's a brand new thing and they're like, what are you talking about? And so they start off with some surprise, but by the third time they do not want to hear it. And that doesn't mean I'm going to stop.

[00:23:50] Sarah: Okay. Great. Awesome. 

[00:23:52] Leslie: Because that is emotional intelligence. So we use words to help us too gain mastery over our environment, to gain mastery over our emotions. So yes, I would use it. I'd want to name when it's emotion mind and I would use it sparingly and respectfully so I'm not really hitting him over the head with it—I don't want to make it that every time he's in emotion mind. 

The other way that I do it to bring it into the family is I ask mom and dad to use it. I ask the parents to start modeling it. “You know what? I'm feeling like I'm in emotion mind.” Or in that moment when James and Dad were both in emotion mind, you could say, “Wow, I can see that you're both in emotion mind. So you might both need to take a breath. I get this is a really emotional moment for both of you.” If you can normalize it and just say, “Yeah, Dad's in emotion mind. You're in emotion mind. Let's give everybody a moment and we can do some problem solving when we're in wise mind.” So there's a way to talk about it that says what our goal is.

Our goal is to notice and name our emotion mind. By the way, emotion mind is not bad. It's just a state of mind. Sometimes if it takes over our thinking, then we might be acting from our emotion mind, which may not make the best decisions for us, right? 

Screaming at you when he doesn't want to get off—that's his emotion mind taking over. And so what we want to learn in life is how to work with our emotion mind. When is it effective for me to feel those emotions? How is it effective for me to communicate those emotions? That's all what growing up is all about. 

[00:25:44] Sarah: Okay, perfect. I just wasn't sure whether I use it right in the moment. So I get that, because you don't want to overuse and I don't want him to see it as like I'm attacking the emotion. 

[00:25:53] Leslie: Exactly, exactly. So it comes from you. If you use it in an aggressive way, he'll feel it that way. If you use it in a very validating, warm, “I get it. This is emotion mind. This is not the time we should problem solve. I'll come right back. I'm going to check on you. I'm here and I can witness your emotion.” So yes, using it with, with an open, warm heart, it'll come across that way. 

[00:26:20] Sarah: So just that respect. “I'm allowing you that space to do you. Yes. And we'll come back.” Great. Perfect. I love that.

[00:26:29] Leslie: Okay. Good, good, good. So that's important because he has those big emotions and helping him, giving him time, those are all very important. And there's lots and lots of tools that we use to go from emotion mind to wise mind. The one I gave you before about breathing, the pace breathing, breathing can get us from emotion mind to wise mind.

Because it's just two different parts of our brain. So if I take a breath, I can actually bring myself out of emotion mind—which is the backside of our brain where the amygdala is—to the front of my brain where I can bring logic into this; working with the logic mind and the emotion mind to make my wise mind.

[00:27:13] Sarah: Hmm. That's nice. 

[00:27:15] Leslie: So that is the first DBT skill we teach and it's just so powerful. We use distraction to get us from emotion mind. That's why scrolling is a bit of an addiction because it takes us away from the emotion, which is great, but we need to return to the emotion. We can't avoid the emotions.

So, we don't want to use distractions to avoid. We want to use distractions to help us tolerate the moment so that we can then deal with the moment. 

[00:27:44] Sarah: And so when there's a big emotions…because obviously there would be an option there to ignore the emotion when he's calmed down… 

[00:27:53] Leslie: Right.

[00:27:54] Sarah: …sometimes we don't have time to actually talk through each emotion. 

[00:27:58] Leslie: Exactly. 

[00:27:59] Sarah: Okay, great. So that's fine. We don't…

[00:28:02] Leslie: Yeah, yeah, yeah: You can't go over each and every one. The child will be exhausted and he'll run so fast away from, um, you know, emotional intelligence. No, you let some things go. And every once in a while you can say, “Well, I've noticed this, or I noticed a pattern or can you take five minutes and let's go over what happened this afternoon.”

[00:28:20] Sarah: Perfect. I love that. Yep. Okay. So we're not actually beating him over the head with it every time. 

[00:28:25] Leslie: No. And I think one of the themes that we're coming up with, which is, you know, this idea of sitting with uncomfortable emotions, when to act on them, what to not. There's a concept called, walking the middle path. So the idea is if there's these two extremes, one extreme is we deal with every emotion and we talk about it and we need to process it. And the other is we avoid, avoid, avoid, and we don't talk about emotional stuff at all. Both, in the extremes, are problems. Both are actually needed in moderation. 

So that middle path is saying, When should I let it go? When should I just avoid it and let it go? It doesn't need to be discussed. And at the same time, when do I want to take a moment and review this and look at it and see if there's something I could do different next time, or, talk about it? So there is a time and place to process those emotions and discuss them.

And there's a time and place to. Avoid it. Let it go. Be generous with it. And so it's the being in the extremes that doesn't work. I don't know if you came from a family, which is, We are going to avoid all emotions. We're not going to deal with anything. Did you? You're smiling.  

[00:29:43] Sarah: I would say that we didn't talk about a lot. And that's where I think I've probably been very mindful raising two young boys. That I'm very mindful that. I want emotions to be normal for them and then it's okay to be sad, happy, angry, mad, excited. 

[00:30:04] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:30:04] Sarah: I don't want to avoid those emotions. And I want them to be able to talk about those emotions as well; because I wasn't raised in a house where we talked about emotions.

[00:30:16] Leslie: It really is great to hear you say that because, and that you have boys, because in our society, we're not giving them enough attention and their sense of vulnerability of growing up in this world is not being considered enough. 

We can't skip over boys will be boys, boys will be tough. Just like we've had societal norms about good girls or whatever, we really want to try to break down those stereotypes and those kinds of thoughts, and help our boys. They've got feelings. They are full of emotions. And it's great to hear you saying that you're taking the time to explore it with them to help them understand their emotions and for all of you to learn how to sit and accept those emotions.

[00:31:08] Sarah: And sitting with them is the hard bit. [Laughter]

[00:31:10] Leslie: Yes, yes, yes, yes. But it gets you where you want to be, because you named the goal of: you want them to be able to have their emotions. So that's the first step of accepting. 

[00:31:21] Sarah: So I think that's really so important. I think that—and I agree with you—I think that we don't assume that our young men have emotions that should be validated.

[00:31:34] Leslie: Exactly.

[Music: Dreams in Nature by Olexy]

[00:31:53] Leslie: You've shared with me that you are a military family. And it's not easy coming out of the military and dealing with the impact that military life has on mental health; and then how mental health affects families. Is that something we can look at? 

[00:32:15] Sarah: Definitely. I think that our boys have grown up in a house with two parents in the services. And my husband and I have both suffered with mental health injuries from our workplace…where our boys have been witness to that. So for us, we have been…I have really been super open with our boys and we talk, especially with their dad, because that's more recent. We've been able to talk about those injuries and how they affect him and how they affect our family unit. And that it is definitely not their fault. But there are reasons why dad behaves how he does in certain times. 

And I think that the reason I've done that is I've not sheltered them from that because I think that if they come across these challenges going forward, I want it to be normalized, that it's not scary or, um, we need to hide these things. We should be open and be able to talk about them. And the boys are very…especially James, he is very uber-aware of his dad. And he will often say to me, “Could I talk to Dad about this? Or would this be triggering for Dad?” Which I think is huge for a 13-year-old to be able to verbalize that. 

And he asked his dad. I said, “I think you should ask your dad.” And he asked his dad, “Can I talk to you about this or would this trigger you?” And his dad's response was, “You can always talk to me about anything. If it triggers me, I'll let you know.”

[00:34:07] Leslie: Oh, that's wonderful.

[00:34:08] Sarah: It’s massive. There has been some mental health struggles in our house. And I think that we've never, ever hidden them from our boys. Never.

[00:34:21] Leslie: Wow. The first thing that really jumps out at me is you have not allowed shame to wash over the family because of mental health struggles. Oh, it almost makes me want to cry. That’s so hard in our society, where there's a mental illness—it could be from the military, it could be from depression, or alcoholism or whatever someone struggles with.

There's so much shame surrounding someone struggles. And I didn't even realize as I say this…It reflects back what I said in the beginning, that we don't want to say some things are good and some things are bad and struggles are bad. 

So look at how that is full circle, because you have these mental health struggles in your family. And by allowing the family to talk about it, you have modeled: We can talk about this, we are not going to be ashamed that there are struggles. That is just so beautiful and so meaningful.

[00:35:33] Sarah: And I also think, especially raising boys, is that, um, and obviously the research in boys mental health and men, I am super mindful that we need to normalize that it's okay to have periods in your life where you are mentally struggling or physically struggling. It's okay. And it won't last forever.

It's just a period or a season and you get the help and you talk about it and you can move on. So look, I don't think we've always got it right, but we try really hard to be super open. 

[00:36:04] Leslie: Yes. 

[00:36:04] Sarah: And we do answer questions honestly. Honestly. And sometimes they can be questions that are about their dad's job or “Why is Dad struggling? Was it something that he saw?” We do talk about all those things, which I think, um, arms them a little bit. It gives them a toolbox. 

[00:36:26] Leslie: Wow. So can I ask you a question? And no need to reveal—whatever you're comfortable with, or not. Do they ask questions where the answer might feel like it's too much information for them at their age?

[00:36:42] Sarah: Yes, at times. And probably James is more interested because he's interested in going into military or policing… 

[00:36:50] Leslie: Okay. Interesting. 

[00:36:52] Sarah: …yes, which I find very interesting. So he often has more detailed questions. And we will give him the majority of the answer, but not necessarily give him everything.

[00:37:08] Leslie: Okay. Because I think that's a question parents have: How much information, how open should we be? Again, moderation is super important. So if you gave the message to your children—we're not talking about this, you can't ask questions about this—that's an extreme, right? And if you give your child every single solitary detail, it could be a little extreme, too, if it's too much for them to handle.

[00:37:36] Leslie: I love the openness. So you've talked about that you're open with this, that there are struggles, there's pain, and you've been dealing with mental health issues. And then the openness reduces the shame and the stigma. But you also talked about making sure the children didn't think it was their fault—that's a natural tendency. 

So even when you say it, I am actually at some point…put it in the back of your mind for you to ask your children: “Do you think when I act a certain way or Dad is struggling a certain way, do you think that that's your fault?” So even though you've told them, which is fantastic, keep telling them, “It's not your fault. We come as people with our own struggles. So you did not make us, or you do not trigger us. If I have a trigger…” I love what your husband said, that if he has a trigger, he will take responsibility. He'll let you know. You know, that's what he said to his son. So that's great. That's being responsible in the most incredible way.

And the idea is that children inside deep down can still feel, But maybe it's my fault. I don't know when it was, but in the last few weeks when James got upset and then Dad got upset, could James say to himself deep inside, could he say, Dad can't handle this. I got Dad upset. I'm making up the scenario, but he says, That was my fault. I got Dad upset. 

[00:39:16] Sarah: Hmm. I've never considered that. And I think the thing is that they've watched their dad, especially their dad as the more recent one, transition out. And I think that's where things come up.

They do ask questions and I think, Oh, where'd that come from? I didn't assume that that was bubbling around down in there. 

[00:39:35] Leslie: Yeah. I like to assume because then I just check in…I just check in every once in a while. I wonder, you know, “What's your perception on this?” Children tend to go to, It must be my fault. If dad got upset, it must be my fault. And how does it not look like their fault when he's upset and then Dad gets upset? It seems like the natural conclusion. 

How would you respond—I'm going to put you on the spot—how would you respond if he said, “It's my fault. Dad got upset because I got upset.” 

[00:40:13] Sarah: I would be like, “It is not your fault. Dad has got emotions with things that we don't understand. And he's just responding with his emotion mind like you're responding with your emotion mind. 

[00:40:26] Leslie: Beautiful, great. Yes, you got it. And sometimes I like to just throw out the idea: if there were ten people in the room, and you behave the way you did, ten people can have ten different reactions. So it's not you causing Dad to have his reaction.

Dad, like you explained, has his own emotions and has his own reaction. And then person number B, you know, they just got an award. So they come and they see you are all upset, but they smile and say, “Hey, buddy, it's okay. You can go back to playing.” And then there'll be nine other different responses.

So people are responsible for their own reactions. 

[00:41:16] Sarah: Whereas where we started, I think with James, I used to take his responses to heart like that were mine. 

[00:41:23] Leslie: So how are you working on that? That's called personalizing it. And I know you are working on that. Does it feel like you still have to work on that?

[00:41:32] Sarah: I think I do at times. I think it comes to where you talk about shame or watching how people think his behavior is reflective of me. Because I'm like, I don't want someone to think that I'm a bad mom. It's not being a bad or good mom. It's just being his mom and he will be who he will be.

And it's funny. I've had to work with that with his grandparents is that I can sometimes read his grandparents, when he does respond differently. And I've had to really, not at the time, but I do call that out afterwards, is that he responds how he responds. You have to accept his response and move on from it.

So I'm starting to use your things with my grandparents. My grandparents! That's pretty cool. 

[00:42:27] Leslie: Goodness. That's wonderful. I do believe that these skills are meant for all human beings and we all have emotions. So it is transferable. 

So you've got, um, this idea that you are working on yourself, your children, your family, and it's all by embracing everybody where they are. So the idea that you are allowing emotions, you want to help your children with their emotions. It means sitting with your own. It means making sure no one feels shame, even though it's an easy sort of…we can all trip into that bucket of shame. It feels like we can all go there. 

And to really—I'm going to say very gently with real validation that you're doing such a great job—make sure you check in with your own shame. Because I heard in all of these sessions how much you want to be there and do a great job for your kids. I'd start with that you are. Just by showing up rather than by judging yourself as good or bad—that's the shame part, right? That's the only place where I see a little shame come up is, am I good enough? 

And so, take that deep breath. I love that you just took a deep breath there. That's the hard part because you're doing it for your children. You're supporting your family. You're doing such a beautiful job. And I think a little shame might show up for you when parenting gets tricky. We 

[00:44:19] Sarah: Yeah, and I'd never labeled it. I will reflect on that. 

[00:44:26] Leslie: Yes, and I don't know how you grow up with that. It's pretty common. It's what I would call a very toxic emotion. It gets a hold of us and it's so easy to feel it. I mean, I've been working on shame my whole life. Let's look at it. Because no one really deserves to walk around feeling like they're a bad person.

That's not, that's not going to help anybody. And it may be more subtle than that because you may not think, I'm a bad person. You might say to me, “No, Leslie, I don't think I'm a bad person.” It's the subtle shame of, am I good enough? 

[00:45:09] Sarah: Sitting underneath. The shame is something—it's funny that you use that word—because I felt like I grew up, because I was the eldest child and I always felt like I was letting down my parents.

So when you raise that word, I'm like, Oh my goodness. There it is. So that's interesting. 

[00:45:35] Leslie: And it's in there somewhere, right? 

[00:45:37] Sarah: It is in there. So when you said, “I don't want people to walk around feeling like they're a bad person,” I don't. I know I'm a good human.

But there is definitely some of that still there. That's interesting, because as soon as you said that word, I was like, “Oh, that's hit me. We've got that. Yep.” So interesting. 

[00:45:53] Leslie: I mean, it's in there, right? Our seven-year-old, our-nine-year old, your 12-year-old: you were working so hard to be the oldest and not let your parents down.

[00:46:04] Sarah: And I hid a lot from them. I never told them a lot. So I just think, and I think that's what drives me with my boys, but I feel like I push them away. That's the part that I, that's where I was like, I feel like I'm got my finger on the pulse, but I'm like, I can't control. I've got a, they've got to leave. I just can be there. 

[00:46:27] Leslie: Right. So what do you mean by that? Say a little more to that.  

[00:46:31] Sarah: So, I want them to be open with me, but I feel like I have to have my finger in the pie with everything they've got. So I've got to be involved in their sport, or I've got to get them the job, or I've got to do them these, because then that means that I know what's going on and then they'll tell me things. But I'm like, well, no, they're not going to tell me everything.

And that's okay. But I feel like I want them with their big things…Like, I think about big things that happened when I was a teenager and I never told my parents—never. I don't want my kids to ever feel that they can't tell me. 

[00:47:10] Leslie: Right. And give your kids permission to be kids who might, like you said a minute ago, that who might not tell you everything.

[00:47:17] Sarah: Exactly.

[00:47:18] Leslie: So that's a great question, which is: How do we have a sign that says I'm open for business? I'm willing to listen. So that really comes from being a good listener, not a good fixer. 

[00:47:39] Sarah: …which is, that's what we've talked about—being a fixer. 

[00:47:43] Leslie: Yes. So the more you listen, the more you validate and help them…communicate to them that you understand them.

That's when they come back to you. Because I want to raise children who grow up to feel my mom got me like nobody else.  My husband cracks up. He says, you know, “The kids call me when it's taxes and buying cars and doing this.” He says, “But they call you to talk about the problems.”

And I'm not making that a female/male thing. The idea is it's the person who's willing to listen non-judgmentally, in what we call being an active listener. So that you're listening, but you're really hearing what they're saying. It's not just hearing words, it's listening to what's going on.

It's listening to how they feel about it. So it's really making sure children are understood. 

[00:48:48] Sarah: And I think that, what I talked about the grandparents, is that I'm really noticing that, with my own mom is that I will call her to talk about things, but she's already in fix-it mode. “This is what you need to do.” 

And I'm like, “Hold on a hot minute. I just want to talk it through.” So I think you're right: that's where I've learnt that model and now I have to change that model with my humans. 

[00:49:15] Leslie: And I really want to be honest because I'm still working on that. Even though I can say what I know—we know to listen to our kids—I get that from my kids too. “Mom, you're just trying to fix this.” And so they will give me that feedback as young adults. I will catch myself. And I keep this as a front and center: This is how I want to show up. 

And this would be, you know, if I ever did a podcast on raising your adult children, this is what it would be about because it's: How do I listen? It doesn't mean I can't give my own two cents, but how do I listen non-judgmentally and so that my children feel like they're understood? 

[00:50:00] Sarah: And I think also, to the listening part, is I don't actually have to talk. I don't have to say anything. 

[00:50:06] Leslie: No. Paying attention. Like, “I can see you're paying attention to me because you're looking at me with eye contact. You're nodding your head and you're making these little sounds.” 

[00:50:16] Sarah: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I'm listening. 

[00:50:20] Leslie: Very validating. And so if I was your child, I would say, “Wow, my mom listens to me.” 

[00:50:25] Sarah: Okay. And I think that's where I'm really trying to shift, is that I don't want to be a fixer. I can help you fix it. But I don't want to be the person that we come to fix it because I don't need to be because you need to learn that skill. 

[00:50:40] Leslie: Right. And the other thing that you can teach them is, “Hey, I'm here to give you advice. And I will check in and once in a while I'll say, ‘Hey, are you looking for any advice?’ Or you are welcome to say, ‘Mom, can you help me fix this problem?’”

So, let's just name it. And so when you sit down with them, you can actually clarify the intention. “Do you want me to listen? Do you want advice?” 

[00:51:08] Sarah: And be upfront with that. 

[00:51:10] Leslie: Exactly. Name it. 

[00:51:11] Sarah: Okay. I love it. I love when you said, “Name it,” before. That was awesome. I was like, yeah, why do we shy away from naming things? Why do we do that? 

[00:51:19] Leslie: Right. Name the emotion. Name it all. 

[00:51:22] Sarah: Yeah. Where have I got a new neurodivergent child that names it all the time.

[Laughter]

[00:51:26] Leslie: He doesn’t mind!

[00:51:28] Sarah: All the time. He's happy to name it. Yeah. He's happy to name it. Okay. That's amazing. Thank you. I've loved having you.

[00:51:35] Leslie: Oh, I'm so, so glad. Keep doing what you're doing. Don't try too hard, but keep doing what you're doing and keep learning. Beause your boys are so lucky to have you. 

[00:51:45] Sarah: Thank you, Leslie. I've had such an awesome time with you.

 [Music: Live in the Moment by Lesfm]

[00:51:56] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: I use a lot of expressions and the one that comes to mind now is: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Because it's an easy way to sum up this episode. There's an idea that our children really do learn from the parent. We can't help that. What we do and how we model being a parent and living our life, our children get to learn from us.

And parents try so hard to actually teach their children how to be humans and how to be nice and how to be kind and how to grow up. But parents forget that they don't even have to try that hard because they're modeling it all the time. And what I really love is that she is raising emotionally intelligent boys.

There's so much research saying boys and men are struggling in today's society. It's amazing that Sarah was willing to talk about the mental injuries that they both experienced—she and her husband experienced—coming out of the military and how she's making that an honest conversation in her family for her boys, to break down the stigma.

And that is also breaking down the shame that comes with stigma, but shame shows up in so many ways that we don't even realize that are deep inside of us. And that was an amazing part of this conversation. The part that's hard to see is often buried so deep inside. It was buried so deep she couldn't even see it, and she never named it.

She really never had a name for that because once I said there's shame and she said, “Yeah, I always grew up thinking I was disappointing my parents.” That moment of realization was the moment she connected the dots between what she has felt and what it is called. And so many of us carry shame and so many of us behave from that place of thinking that we're not good enough or that we're bad.

And what does it feel like when we let go of that shame and we actually feel good enough? It's an amazing freedom. So this week, remember: It's never too late to address the roots of your shame. And we explore shame in its many forms and what to do about it in another mini bonus episode that comes out this Thursday. It's just 15 minutes of focused content on a single topic.

 [Music: Acoustic Motivation by Coma-Media]

You can subscribe to Is My Child a Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And go ahead, rate and review it on Apple podcasts because it really helps spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and thanks so much for listening.


Transcribed by Eric Rubury