Jean & Alex Part 1 of 3: When Your Kid Can't Handle Needles or Bandaids

Children need to feel safe and capable as they venture out into the world. Jean and Alex are parents who came to me for help with their 6 year old daughter’s challenging behavior when she didn’t feel safe or capable. Ellie is a highly sensitive child for whom getting a shot and then taking off the bandaid have turned doctor visits into scary events for both Ellie and her mom.  In this episode we assess the problem and discuss how rigid thinking make these situations so difficult and ultimately what you can do about it. This episode will get you thinking about your own thinking patterns and help you understand the importance of feeling safe and capable in your life or your child’s life

Time Stamps

4:30 The bandaid coming off is not going to be a lifelong issue. It’s the sensitivity that will the lifelong issue 

6:05 Anticipatory Anxiety is thinking ahead of what could go wrong

6: 25 Problematic thinking patterns: See handout below

9:36 Avoidance is a short term solution to a problem of discomfort but not a long term solution

11:58 The balance between respect and authority.  

• Respect her through validation
• Setting the limit with your authority communicates that she is actually safe

13:10 Here’s how to deal with the anxiety

• Feel the anxiety and do it anyway
• I am scared AND I can do it anyway. A dialectic statement.  Repeat this over and over again as your child grows

17:15 Replace “good and bad” with “is it working and is it not working”

18:00 When children have a big emotions there may be an underlying belief,  “I am not safe, I am not capable or I am unloveable”

21:25 The learning after an exposure is a critical for growth

• Drawing pictures- graph sin curve
• Rating scale numbers that go up and down. 

23:50 Some children/adults are slow return to baseline after an event

28 50 Watch out for the “shoulds”  and the fears 

30:00 Make a list of handling-my-discomfort-list even when its a struggle

31:05 Using the line “Feelings come and feeling go”

34:10 Shaping her behavior so her communication becomes more accurate. 

• Identify social  signaling or inaccurate expression
• Give her time to practice and learn these skills

35:35 Children who are born more sensitive:  Look at 3 biological markers

• Emotional sensitivity (low—--------------------high)
• Emotional reactivity  (low—--------------------high)
• Emotional recovery   (quick—------------------slow)

36:10 Teach your children the difference between rigid thinking vs. flexible thinking

• Other interpretations 
• Other possible outcomes
• Dialectic thinking:  Use the magic “AND”

Resources:  

• Handout of Problematic Thinking Patterns and Examples

Leslie-ism: Shift your thinking by shifting your language

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

[00:00:00] Jean: I left that appointment thinking: Great—I've taught her how to have a needle phobia and she's not going to get medical care as an adult because this experience was so difficult for her.

[00:00:22] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: We have to take our kids to the doctor and when they are afraid of those appointments, it can be a hard experience for the whole family. And it can be confusing because you can't tell if it's a normal childhood behavior or something to be really concerned about. And there are ways to make it easier.

I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster. Just misunderstood. 

This week, we meet Jean and Alex, who came to me for help with their 6-year-old daughter Ellie. Ellie is a highly sensitive child whose behaviors puzzle her parents. Whether it's her hair, touching her face, or removing a Band-Aid, everything feels like an emergency to Ellie. And that can be so confusing, because what seems insignificant to you as a parent, like just pulling off a Band-Aid, is a huge deal to your child.

So in this episode we talk about anxiety and when it might actually be a phobia, practical skills to help manage things like doctor's appointments, and the concept of using exposures to help your child gain confidence.  

So, now as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention.

So let's begin.

[00:02:03] Leslie: Hi, Jean. Hi, Alex. 

[00:02:06] Jean: Hello. 

[00:02:07] Alex: Hi. 

[00:02:08] Leslie: So, I'm going to give you a guys a chance to start where you are. 

[00:02:11] Jean: Yeah. So, Alex and I, we're parents. We have a 6-year-old, a 3-year-old, we all live together. Things are, I mean, things are going pretty well—it's really fun being a parent. So, our oldest, Ellie, she's always been somewhat sensitive to physical sensation.

An example might be, if I'm going to give her a hug, I'll ask her, “Would you like a hug?” She'll say yes, I'll give her a hug and she'll say, “Ow, ow, ow, ow,” and sort of like, pull out because maybe I hugged her too tight or I touched her in the wrong place, or my knee bonked into her, or something.

That kind of stuff happens every day. And the reason we reached out is because we had a bad doctor's appointment. I took her to the doctor to get two vaccines. No one likes getting shots. It just felt really bad. I was sitting there. We were there for 45 minutes. I was holding her down forcibly. She was screaming in terror. And then this few days later, the same thing happens when we have to take the Band-Aids off. 

And leaving the appointment, I just felt like it was time to get some advice because I think Alex and I both want her to, like, we know she's more sensitive to physical touch than we are, but we want her to be able to manage that and take care of herself as she gets older and not avoid going to the doctor because it's been such a scary experience as a child. So that's kind of why we're here right now. 

[00:03:42] Leslie: Okay. Alex, do you have anything to add right there? 

[00:03:45] Alex: I think from what I heard about that doctor's appointment, I'm also remembering how Ellie was given the opportunity to say when she was ready for the shot. And you've talked about authority and respect and the balance between those, and we definitely wanna give her the respect that she deserves. And sometimes we don't know how to manage doing that and also just get the thing over with. So, it would be nice to be able to approach those situations to some degree on her terms, but also get it done. And that's a struggle. 

And I'm usually the one who's taking the bandaid off. I end up doing that. So it also completely plays into that because that seems to be just as traumatic for her. Preparing to do it and then getting it done and worrying about it and hurting and all that.

[00:04:38] Leslie: Okay. Just to get some more background information, does she talk about going to the doctor's days in advance? 

[00:04:47] Jean: Oh, yes. As soon as she knows. As soon as she knows there's a doctor's appointment, she wants to know if she's getting a shot. This last appointment we had—this is after the vaccine—she had a physical and I called and asked, “Are there going to be any vaccines?” And they said no. So she was very happy about that. But if, for example, she knew we were getting the vaccines, we were going to do it on my birthday, the only thing she would talk about was, “I don't want it to be your birthday because I don't want to get shots.”

[00:05:14] Leslie: Got it. 

[00:05:15] Jean: And this is true, no matter how much in advance. After her physical, she wanted to know, “When am I getting my next shot?” And I'll say, “Well, not until you turn seven.” “Well, what day is it going to be?” 

[00:05:28] Leslie: Okay. And after she gets the shot and now she has a Band-Aid on, do you hear about the Band-Aid coming off constantly?

[00:05:37] Alex: Yes. It's sort of when it approaches that time of day, she starts to talk about how, “Can we do it tomorrow instead?” And, “You don't have to take it off, do you/” And yeah, just definitely lots of thinking ahead to the problem. 

I don't know if it's a good moment to insert this, but I feel like that, in itself, is something that she struggles with a lot, is a lot of thinking ahead about what could go wrong or difficult or bad things. And she's preoccupied with that, to the expense of other positive things sometimes. 

[00:06:11] Leslie: Oh my goodness. All right. I'm going to jump in with two things. One is I teach Dialectic Behavior Therapy skills classes. I do some groups, and this week I just taught these thinking patterns that all people have. And they're only problematic when they get us in trouble. It's ways that we think; and noticing these problematic thinking patterns can help us shift them and help us deal with situations and regulate our emotions. So if she says, “I'm never getting another shot,” that extreme language is certainly going to make it harder to regulate her emotions and do the things she doesn't want to do. 

So you, Alex, just named two of common problematic thinking patterns. One of them was disqualifying the positives so that all that she may be thinking about is taking it off and she's disqualifying that she got it off in the past or that she has other things to look forward to. And her mind is going to this one negative thing, and then it can be maladaptive thoughts, which means she's just going around it. 

Yes, it's true that the Band-Aid coming off will hurt. We all know very well that that is a sensation and for a highly sensitive person, oh my goodness, I can imagine that feels horrible, like her skin's being torn off. So we want to honor the fact that she's thinking about something, which is true, but the amount that she's thinking about it, the extensiveness, we can say she's ruminating. And we want to say, “Wow, you're going around and around and around.” So we are going to look at these problematic thinking patterns of extreme language; all or nothing thinking; in this case, disqualifying the positive and also the maladaptive thought of thinking about it over and over and over again.

There's probably more in there. I can't handle this---that's an all-or-nothing statement. I don't like this is different than I can't handle this. So, she's young and we want to start early, helping her understand the thought. So you repeating the thought and naming it for her as, “Oh, that's all-or-nothing thinking, let's try it again.”

I'll send you a list of these problematic thinking patterns. There's a nice list. And you can start to name them in yourself and in her, and just start making it a common language of awareness around the ways that we think—catastrophizing and predicting negative outcomes, things like that.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that she's trying to solve her problems, the Band-Aid, the shot. When she goes to the doctor and you say, “Okay, you ready for your shot?” She says, “No.” And when it's bedtime and the Band-Aid needs to come off or whatever, she says, “No, let's do it tomorrow.” Do you know what that's called? 

[00:9:19] Jean: I don't know what that's called. 

[00:9:20] Leslie: Starts with an a. 

[00:9:22] Jean: Aggravating. 

[00:9:23] Leslie: Could be, but not the word I'm thinking of. It's a solution to a problem. She's got a problem—it's anxiety—and she's trying to solve her problem with the behavior of avoidance. I bet she does that a lot.

[00:09:39] Jean: Mm-hmm. 

[00:9:40] Leslie: And what's brilliant about that is it is a solution, but it's just a short term solution. And in the moment if I say, “We'll do it tomorrow,” whew, she solved that problem. And if she says, “No, I'm not ready for the shot yet in the doctor's office,” phew, I solve that problem. But there's a problem with avoidance—the anxiety gets worse. Do you see that? Describe what happens in the doctor's office when she keeps saying, no, no, no. She's avoiding and putting it off. 

[00:10:12] Jean:  It was so bad. So we walked in. And usually what happens in these visits is, she sits on my lap, I hold her still, she gets the shot, she hates it, but it's very quick. But this one, I guess we had a new medical staff in there and maybe it's because she was older—I mean, Ellie's older—or maybe it's just because this is how this other person does it. She started by saying, “Don't worry, I won't give you the shot until you're ready, until you say you're ready.” And that surprised me, but I decided to go with it, which was what I regret.

She was never going to say she was ready. So it was just sort of these waves of, “No, I'm not ready yet.” You could feel her relax a little bit. But then we'd start to, especially me, because I hate making this person wait. So I'm thinking, How long are you going to stand here? Don't you have other patients?

So I'm like, “Okay, are you ready now? Let's do a countdown. What number do you want to count down from?” And she just won't speak. And you can feel her body getting tighter and tighter and tighter. And then,what happened in the appointment is I said, “Okay, I'm going to hold you still. We're going to do a ten-second countdown.” And then it's just a physical, you know, who's stronger, who's stronger than whom. And it's screaming. And the screaming—it sounds more like fear than it does pain. Because she's so worried about the moment that I don't even know she can feel it when it happens, honestly, but she's just so scared.

So it's just, it's like a back-and-forth, back-and -orth because she was given so much room to say no. So that's probably not a great approach. 

[00:11:44] Leslie: Okay, great learning. Everything is about learning. She needs to learn. Through these experiences, you get to learn through these experiences, and that's called exposure.

And before, Alex, you said, what's that balance between respecting her and giving her voice and getting it done and, and moving on? Well, there's a reason why we may want to. But look at that balance and say, yes, we can respect her and validate what she's experiencing—that's the respect. And at the same time, maybe what you've done in the past, which is go in, get it done, hold her, let her know you're connected and get it done. And take that authority position just so she understands she's actually safe. So the reason, and I'm sure that nurse was very, very, very well-intentioned. She wanted to respect the child. And saying to someone with anxiety, “Tell me when you're ready,” is not a good idea. And here's the reason why: In order to deal with anxiety, you have to feel it and do it anyway.

The anxiety doesn't go away. It doesn't say, “Oh yeah, I'm done getting you anxious. Now you can go get your shot.” The only way you learn that you are okay is to be scared, feel the anxiety, feel the discomfort, and do it anyway. 

[00:13:13] Jean: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:14] Leslie: So that's a mantra that I want you to say over and over and over again. Just repeat that phrase so she grows up to hear, “I'm scared and I can do it anyway.” And that's a dialectic statement by the way. A dialectic statement is two opposing ideas that can coexist at the same time. I'm scared and I can do it. 

[00:13:38] Jean: So, it makes sense to do that sort of in-the-moment at the doctor’s, like, “Here's a time where you are scared and you're going to do it anyway. And I'm going to help you do it quickly so that you don't have to feel all of this anxiety around it.

There are plenty of other things that she does in her life that are scary and we just let her take all the time she needs and she will do it anyway. So, for example, she just learned to ride a bike with pedals. There was a whole several weeks, where she had the pedals on her bike, and they were bonking into her shins, and she didn't like it. She had us take them off, but eventually she decided she wanted to do it anyway. So it was like a months-long process and now she can ride her bike. So that's a situation where I wouldn't push her. I would just say, “When you're ready, you can do it.” 

[00:14:21] Leslie: Yes. 

[00:14:22] Jean: And so that's like a different situation than the medical situation where I'm going to make you do it anyway. I mean, I'm going to help you do it anyway. But what that feels like to her is, “I'm making you do it anyway.” 

[00:14:32] Leslie: Right. 

[00:14:33] Jean: And sometimes it's hard to know how to sort an experience into one of those categories. So the vaccine is easy: “You're getting it.” But taking off the Band-Aid is a little harder.

[00:14:45] Jean: Like, well, what the herd if she waits five days, aside from the Band-Aid fusing to her skin and making it more uncomfortable. It's hard for me to know how to sort things so I know what can we let her do on her own time and what we need to step in for. 

[00:15:05] Leslie: Okay. Alex, I'm sure that's a question for you as well. Anything else you want to add right now? 

[00:15:11] Alex: Yeah, I was sort of thinking, the main thing I'm wondering is: How do we transfer that mantra from us saying that to her to her internalizing and using that at some point in the future? I mean, I've been going over in my head this thing that happened over the weekend.

[00:15:33] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:15:34] Alex: So, Ellie and I went biking together for the first time, which is really exciting. And she was enjoying herself and super happy and the biking was successful. And then of course she fell and she slapped her hands on the asphalt and she had her inevitable upset. And, I mean, of course that hurts and it was awful and everything.

And I've been trying to figure out what was different this weekend. Ten minutes later she was biking again. She had her same reaction that she would normally have, of what I like to call panic screaming; and curling up and having this hard time asking for or accepting any kind of comfort.

But I sat with her and we talked through it and eventually it was okay. So that's something I've just been wondering: What was different that time that helped her differently? 

[00:16:32] Jean: Well, I wasn't there, but I think I know why, because I saw her hands. She wasn't… 

[00:16:36] Alex: Well, it was not bleeding. 

[00:16:37] Jean: …she wasn't bleeding. So as soon as she was brave enough to look and saw she wasn't bleeding, she was fine, because she's not afraid. What she's scared of is bleeding and having to get a Band-Aid put on it, and then she's worried that the blood will dry and stick to the Band-Aid so that when we have to take the Band-Aid off, it will hurt because it will pull the scab off. So I think that's why she was fine. 

[00:16:56] Alex: Yeah, that makes sense. 

[00:16:58] Leslie: Okay, great. Understanding your daughter is what this is all about. And I love that you're asking questions. I love that you are curious. That is so helpful. What's different this time? What worked, what didn't work? You both use good and bad a little bit, successful and bad.

I would try to get away…just a little awareness around good and bad thinking. Again, that's more dichotomous. Is it working, is it not? So when it comes to the nurse saying, “I'll give you all the time you need,” or whatever, that wasn't working, not that it was bad, because then we're assigning bad intention to this person who had no bad intention. Not saying that you did that, but it's a judgment and it's not working makes it a little cleaner for us to see that didn't work right. 

Now, when it comes to this bicycle riding, and what you just added, Jean, about how Ellie didn't see any blood, so that her thinking, her context, and her thinking around this is, I'm okay.

When you have a reaction, she's feeling unsafe or incapable of handling it. So one of three things is generally happening when you see a big reaction. I don't feel safe. Something is not safe, something's going to go wrong. I'm not capable of handling this. I can't look at blood. I can't deal with this, or I'm not lovable. Right now, I'm hearing the other two. But when kids feel like they're left out or dismissed or invalidated, they can have a big reaction. 

But right now we're talking about her sensitivity. And that sensitivity means, I don't know that I can handle it, which is really her lived experience growing up. Her sensitivity of going through the world. It's similar to my daughter—if I walked past her and by accident my hand touched her arm, her sensitivity was such that she would impulsively bat me even before I got past her, just walking past her. And she was so quick because that brush up against her skin probably felt like someone was grinding something against her. It felt really uncomfortable. And so she whacked me when she was younger in response. So we do want to understand. Not that we have that same experience, but that that's her experience.

[Music: Life Journey by Music For Videos]

[00:19:49] Alex: So I'm thinking too, when you were talking about the importance of feeling the anxiety and then doing something anyway. So the three things that you were saying, she could be feeling I'm not safe, and the other two… 

[00:20:04] Leslie: I'm not capable or I'm not loved. 

[00:20:06] Alex: Would you say that amounts to the anxiety, or are those three things something that you would try to take care of and eliminate and then move on? Does that make sense? 

[00:20:17] Leslie: Yes. No, I don't want you to take care…she needs to learn these things, so I don't want you to accommodate, accommodate, accommodate to make her feel safe. That could be dangerous, or just it won't work for her long-term best interests. So it's a way to be curious and it's a way to connect to her. “Wow, taking off that Band-Aid, my guess is either you don't think you can handle it or you think it's not safe—what's going on?” And then I would check her thought—what assumption is she making? Because there's probably a problematic thinking problem in there. She's thinking, “If the blood dries and it'll stick to my hand and…” whatever.

Maybe one thing is she wants to be able to learn both that a) it may not be bleeding, let's look and see actually if there was any blood before the Band-Aid went on, and then the Band-Aid can do its job; b) even if it did bleed, can she handle having the Band-Aid come off? We want her to eventually learn both things.

So the focus I want you to have is that moving her through these experiences—by the way they are called exposures—is all about the learning that takes place after. That's the gem. So after you went to the doctor, maybe not right away, give her a break. But maybe in the car ride going to school the next day, you can say, “Tell me what you learned at the doctor's office. Tell me what you learned about getting your shot. Did your anxiety go up when the nurse said, tell-me-when-tell-me-when-tell-me-when…did it go down? When did the anxiety go down?” “The anxiety went down after it was over.” And so the longer you wait and draw maps—and drawing pictures is great for most people, but especially children, they like things concrete.

So I would draw that sine curve that goes up, and I would say it was going up, up, up, up, up every time. “The nurse said, tell me when you're ready. Your anxiety actually increased and then it went down. After the shot, it went down a little bit.” You can make a little, you know, relief when she didn't get the shot, but then it went right back up.

So drawing pictures and giving it a rating. A rating scale. Right now, she might be old enough to use a number scale of 1 to 10. “What was the worst and after it was over, what did you feel? Wow. It went from a 9 all the way down to a 2 after the shot. Hey, that's pretty cool.” There's the learning. That is actually learning. When she sees the number go from a 10 to a 2, or she sees the graph go up and then back down. 

[00:23:03] Jean: Yeah. We did have a sort of a debrief after it, and it was more led by me, less by her; because I learned something during that appointment about what I would've done differently. It's good to hear that you're saying a lot of this learning happens after the exposure because I feel we do that pretty well. It's more the in-the-moment reactions that I struggle with. But the afterwards chats are always usually pretty fun interesting. I think, in that case, I can imagine asking her, “So how do you feel now?” And she would still be at a 9 because now her arm is sore. So it would be an extended event to not only when the Band-Aid’s off, but the arm is no longer sore, you can't see that there was a Band-Aid there, then she'll be back to normal. 

But we could still do the same process, it would just cover a bigger amount of time. But it's the same overall curve. Like, your anxiety goes up, up, up, up, up, up. It's all over. It goes down. 

[00:24:13] Leslie: Okay. And there can be sections within that. So that there may be the time at the doctor's office, because she's not screaming after the shot—the screaming has ended. It has come down to some extent. So again, helping her notice things, name things and like you said, going over it afterwards is wonderful because it gives her information. You want to help her see that there's learning that happens. Can you tell me why it's so uncomfortable for you during…you said something about, “I felt badly for the nurse,”how long was she gonna wait there…You worry about other people? 

[00:24:54] Jean: Yes. So I also worry a lot and I also get frustrated easily, so we kind of are like two sparks looking for things to catch on fire. So, yes, in that moment I was worried, you know, what if this person has to go do something else?

And I was also, of course, worried about Ellie. I could tell this wasn't working, but there was still a part of me that thought, Maybe this is a magical technique and it will work. Never tried this. So I think a lot of the “bad” language I used was also just a reflection; like I know that had I said, “Actually, we're going to do this. Let's do this the way we've done it in the past,” the whole experience would've been smoother. It would've been shorter. It would've been smoother. So that's where that bad feeling is coming, mostly from my own responsibility. Of course, after the fact, I realized, not in the moment.

But other times, there are times when…let's see…she wakes up and there's hair in her face and she's screaming, and I get really frustrated easily because it was like you were talking about your own daughter, like the little brush of air against her skin might've felt really disturbing. And I am trying to understand that and just accept that. And I get really frustrated about it sometimes because sometimes it's just such a tiny thing. And so that's hard for me. I don't know, Alex, if you feel the same way. But I certainly struggle with just getting really irritated.

[00:26:38] Alex: Definitely. And I feel like my response to that is maybe not going in a great direction. I guess what I've noticed about my response, when she experiences some random bit of discomfort in the home is, I feel like I've been trained to hear her calling wolf, so I'm responding less because I sort of find that if I try to see if she would like some kind of comfort, she pushes it away. Or I discovered that, oh, it was only, you know, it doesn't really hurt. I mean, I don't tell her that, but that's how it sometimes feels to me. It's like, how could you be reacting this much? And so I don't respond as much.

I guess that came originally from a place of trying not to be as reactive, but to try to sit down calmly and talk with her more. But I feel like that's evolving more into maybe coming across as too dismissive, possibly. I'm also trying to find a place there, because if I did respond more, I'd probably get more actively frustrated.

[00:27:53] Leslie: Okay. So. What you're both saying, which is beautiful, is that you are really perceptive. You are aware that sometimes you're in there and it feels like it increases your frustration. Sometimes you're stepping away and then if you step away, does it feel dismissive? I love the questioning, the curiosity. 

Not to drive you nuts, but to give you something to work with…I know that when you went to the doctor's—I keep going back to that—but when you went to the doctor and now the nurse tried this approach for another child, it might have worked. So we can't say blanket, it doesn't work; and it may work in the future for her. So in that situation, your gut was saying to go with it. The learning is valuable. It doesn't mean it's easy, it doesn't mean it's pain-free the way you wish it would go. And that's the shoulds that we have in our head. This should be easier than it is. This should be no big deal.

We should be able to get this over with. We should be able to let the nurse go back to do what she has to do. So we want to get rid of our shoulds. I bet there were also some fears. 

[00:29:10] Jean: Well, yes. As a classic worrier, I left that appointment thinking, Great—now I've taught her how to have a needle phobia, and she's not going to get medical care for herself as an adult because this experience was so difficult for her. So that's my thought as I'm leaving the appointment. So we have similar patterns of thinking. But that's also why we're reaching out because we still have a lot more doctor's visits. And a lot more days with her where we can try new strategies. And new ways of thinking, ourselves. 

[00:29:45] Leslie: Okay, so we did a lot of thinking about thinking. And back to the bicycle idea, she was able to handle that. So I would almost, if this is happening on a regular basis, I would make a little list that you guys can accumulate—Handling The Discomfort List—and let her see, “Wow, I was uncomfortable when I fell off my bicycle, and I handled it by looking at my hands and getting back on the bike. I handled getting a shot by yelling, screaming, and then letting Mommy hold me and getting a shot. It doesn't have to be, “You handled it well and pretty and easy.” You handled the struggle. 

[00:30:40] Jean: Okay. Yeah, that was going to be my question. Do those other moments go on the list where, “I handled it by screaming for 15 minutes and then yelling at you to go away while clinging to you.” 

[00:30:51] Leslie: Right. 

[00:30:52] Jean: It's like, okay, I guess that goes on the list because you did like…

One of the things you have said on previous podcasts—because I really like your podcast and your advice—is, you've said the phrase: Feelings come and feelings go. And I like saying that a lot. And those will usually come in the debrief afterwards. Like, “You were yelling for 15 minutes and I bet you were feeling, I don't know, were you feeling scared? Were you feeling upset? Were you feeling hurt?” And she'll tell me how she was feeling. And then I'll say, “And do you feel that same way now?” “No.” “So, it was really strong and now it's gone.” 

[00:31:26] Leslie: So that's the learning. And you've described that she feels a little better after, but then it's the Band-Aid and then it's, you know…it could be a week-long process. Basically, her full recovery and her natural biological recovery time may be slow. People, somewhere on the continuum, fall between quick recovery and slow recovery. People who have a slower recovery to things…it's a little harder living in this world. They don't get over things as easily. And maybe you notice that. Although with the bicycle, she had a quick recovery and so it may not be clear, is she generally slow to recover or does she recover more quickly?

I just want to go back to the idea of this crying wolf and giving her space, but not being dismissive. That is a fine line. You'll have to play with that. And there are ways that you can check in with her and also realize that giving her space is probably something that works because maybe she's verbalizing what's going on inside, not really asking for help.

[00:32:41] Leslie: So if I said, “Ugh, I'm so frustrated,” it sounds like, “Could you help me?” I'm frustrated, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying I'm so frustrated. 

[00:32:52] Alex: I have a history of interpreting things that way. 

[00:32:55] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:32:56] Alex: Yeah. I just want to complain and stop trying to fix it. 

[00:33:00] Jean: Yeah, but can I also just add, she'll be screaming and looking at you with the most accusatory, but also, like, needy eyes. Like, direct eye contact, like, please come help me. And also, “I'm so angry at you. I want to kill you. And also if you touch me, I'm going to punch you. But if you don't touch me, I'm going to scream and look at you even more because you're not helping me.” So you're getting mixed messages because she's sending mixed messages.

So it is confusing to know what she wants. And we used to have a system where if it was like a certain kind of scream, she wanted company and if it was a different kind, she didn't, but it's all changed now. She's older. Her screams sound more similar,and it's hard to know what she wants, and she in the moment cannot tell us easily what she wants.

[00:33:45] Leslie: Okay, we're going to give her time. She's six years old, we're going to give her time. I'm not so good about that either—I'm not sure if I want help or space sometimes, or an event or for suggestions. So we are going to give her time and understand that she will learn this as she grows. And we want to shape her behavior so that her communication is more and more accurate.

So we might say, when she's young, “Wow, you are yelling at me and the signal you're sending is ‘Go away, Mommy,’ because you're yelling. Someone who's usually yelling and throwing their hands up is signaling, ‘Get away from me.’ And at the same time, I think there's a part of you that wants me to come towards you and support you and help you.”

So if you can slow her down and say, “Were both those parts there? Was there a part of you that wanted to push me away and another part of you that wanted me to come to help you?” I want her to recognize her mixed message, as you called it. We call it social signaling and accurate communication. So we want to help her see that.

Both those things are there and then you are going to have to help her figure it out. “Hmm. I'm going to give you a little space. Let's see if that works for you.” 

[00:35:02] Jean: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think she'd really like that. I think she's really…when we've talked about similar kinds of things, the idea that you can feel two or more things at the same time, she really understands that and it's interesting to her. So I think the more we do that, just sort of helping her understand her own reaction. Or our reaction is going to be helpful and interesting to her. 

[00:35:26] Leslie: I have compassion for the frustration, the fears that you have. I was in that same place. Parents feel this way, that it is frustrating when you have a highly sensitive child who is born with that biological sensitivity. There is emotional sensitivity and there is emotional reactivity, how intensely someone responds and how they feel it. So these are biological markers that are there from the beginning.

And as you said, she's always been like this. I noticed you said that in the beginning. So you were becoming aware of her sensitivity and so now we're going to give her time. The other thing that I wanted to point out is you are in the process of teaching her about rigid thinking versus flexible thinking. When she thinks, If blood goes on Band-Aids, it can stick to my arm, that's a rigid thought. I would say to her—and like I said, I'm just teaching that skill to my adult DBT group—I would say to that, “What are some other interpretations? Or what are some other possible outcomes? One outcome is that it's going to get stuck to my arm. Another outcome is that the Band-Aid falls off.

Another outcome is that there is no blood. Another outcome is that it makes a red mark another outcome…”And so we help her get more flexible in her thinking. 

[00:36:49] Jean: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:50] Leslie: And in her interpretation, “I don't like it and I can handle it.” So we are going to teach you some dialectic thinking. Use that, and what I call the Magic And: “I can't handle this and I want this to be over with. I'm scared and I can do it anyway.” So there's the and statement. 

[00:37:10] Jean: Yeah, I think that will be really interesting. The different interpretations is something I've tried with her a few times and it's really interesting, because she's very creative. And she has a hard time coming up with different interpretations of things that happen to her or like that might happen. Like, why did this person do this? Or, what's the worst thing that can happen if this happened? And I'll come up with three or four ideas and she's interested in listening to them. She's just not yet able to, at least in the times I've tried it to come up with ideas on her own. 

[00:37:46] Leslie: Yeah, some brains are set up that coming up with alternative solutions is not easy—it's just not the way their brain works. You have to have a brain like mine because I'm at ADHD and I'm all over the place. My brain looks like the map of New York City, a thousand roadways. So if you come back next session and tell me something's not working, I'm like, “Okay, great, we'll try something else.” So, flexible thinking is not one of my issues. Being more intentional and being more directed—which your daughter will probably have that skill—is something I have to work on more carefully.

So we have to work with who we are. And you are getting to know your daughter. And go home and try some of this stuff for the next few weeks and we'll come back and go over it. 

[00:38:30] Jean: Sounds great. Thank you. 

[00:38:32] Alex: Thank you.

[Music: Nature Calls by Folk_Acoustic]

[00:38:37] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: So, Ellie in this episode is six years old, and that might seem pretty young to be going to therapy for your daughter. But it's not when you realize that the seeds of these behaviors that we have as adults start early in life. So early intervention really works well. And we started to identify some of the things that they can do as parents to help their daughter; because we don't have to say there's a major problem and we don't have to identify any pathology. We can just learn to develop some skills and strategies to help both their daughter and themselves. 

Another reason for early intervention is the way we think and the language in which we express these thinking patterns is something that starts early and it becomes well-established.

So, in our society and in this family there was a lot of all-or-nothing thinking and a lot of extreme language, like, you never get to do something or this was the worst day. These are all patterns of the way we think and the way we express it. 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

So this week, try to shift your thinking by shifting your language. And join us on Thursday because we actually have another mini bonus episode, where my producer and I are going to talk about all-or-nothing thinking, give you plenty of examples, and we teach you how to disrupt it for you and your child. 

And join us next week for my second session with Jean and Alex, where we have a vulnerable conversation about feeling annoyed and irritated with your children. 

Subscribe to Is My Child a Monster? wherever you get your podcasts And if you feel so inclined, please rate and review on Apple podcasts, because it really helps spread the word. You can also find a transcript of this episode, or sign up for my newsletter, at is ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining me.

Transcribed by Eric Rubury