Jean & Alex Part 2 of 3: When Your Child Wants a Lot of Your Attention

Parents get exhausted because parenting is exhausting. Parents also can get exhausted because they are in essence tripping over their own feet.  Have you ever thought that your worry thoughts are the thing that is contributing to your exhaustion?  Whether it's your child or yourself, worry makes people uncomfortable. In this episode, we talk about teaching her child to handle discomfort through exposure work.  And when parents practice what they preach, their children are so much more likely to learn those lessons.That’s a parenting gem.  We also focus on how personal vulnerability plays into parenting, how to manage the frustration and how to find solutions through synthesis

Time Stamps

5:04 Learning to live with someone else is a spiritual practice - the frustration is a given and it teaches us to learn to tolerate differences

7:35 A Dialectic Dilemma - I want alone time vs I want to be with you all the time

• dialectic synthesis (makes a black and white design) vs a compromise (makes grey). See Handout below.
• Brainstorming your ideas for different syntheses promotes flexible thinking and multiple options

17:50 If we meet our child’s need when it's small, we may be able to keep it from escalating

20:30: Three strategies for dealing with Kids who want your attention

• I’m cooking (expect them to wait)
• Take a quick break and see what they want to show you
• Connect to your child before they ASK.  

22:04 Take responsibility for your own “frustration or irritation” - Own it, Name it

22:47 Be who you are, Accept who you are AND also work on Change!

25:08 Radical acceptance the normal frustration

25:30 Tolerating Differences is something children can learn when parents are different

26:25 Talking about the idea of our children “pushing our buttons” clinically called vulnerabilities and a prompting event for emotional reactions

28:23 Beware of blaming and shaming your child if you think your reaction is their fault. 

31:15 Children are trying to meet their needs:  Parents can interpret that as manipulation or believing that the child is “powering over you”

32:20 Children who ask questions over and over again may need reassurance

33:36 Lean into the child’s problematic behavior with curiosity and send it back to the child. Don’t make it about you. Make it about her

36:00 The homework assignment of making a list of “I CAN HANDLE IT”  - listing when she had a struggle and how she handled it

38:28  Advice for Parents: Try a little less hard.  Trying too hard: making everything a lesson, trying to get it so right.  General Surgeon said Parents are too stressed and its affedcting their mental health

Resources:  

US General Surgeon’s Advisory Article on “Parents Under Pressure”

Embark Behavioral Health Article on All or Nothing Thinking: The Impact of a Black and White Mentality

Leslie's Handout on Images of Dialectic Synthesis

Leslie-ism: Remember you don’t have buttons that your child pushes, but you do have vulnerabilities. Take a look and recognize those vulnerabilities so your kids don't do it first 

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, 

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

[00:00:00] Jean: When I'm frustrated or just need a break, my dream is to just be completely alone. Like, I want no eye contact, nothing…and Ellie wants to be merged with me.

[00:00:22] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: It can be so hard when our children want to be around us all the time, and we just need some alone time. That's the frustrating reality of parenting, and finding a solution to that dilemma is what we talk about in today's session. I’m Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster, just misunderstood. 

Today is my second session with Alex and Jean, who have two daughters, 6-year-old Ellie, and 3-year-old Ezra. Honesty takes self-awareness, and in this episode, Jean and Alex share how easy it is to be annoyed and irritated with their kids. I remember those days. However, they express it differently, but the feelings of frustration and annoyance are universal. In this episode, we talk about how personal vulnerability plays into parenting, how to manage those feelings of frustration, and how to find solutions through a synthesis. 

So, now as a reminder, all of the names and identifying information have been changed, and though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention.

So let's begin. 

[00:01:54] Leslie: Hi, Jean; Hi, Alex. 

[00:01:56] Alex: Hi. Good to see you again. 

[00:01:57] Jean: Hi.

[00:01:58] Leslie: Hi. It is good to see you both again, and I'm just curious if you want to share with us what's been going on in terms of any challenges. I'm just curious where you are today, showing up with what's going on. 

[00:02:12] Jean: Last time we talked about Ellie and how she just has a hard time handling physical discomfort, and you gave us some strategies and things. I think one thing that's been hard for me is I get really frustrated because… these things, they happen again and again and again and again—it's like a bunch of small things all in a row. And I have trouble sort of absorbing all of her emotional reactions and then sort of keeping them pent up inside me.

So, she'll get it out of her system, she'll be fine afterwards, and then I'm all agitated for the rest, like, the next few hours. So, that's something; and I know Alex experiences that too; he just might manifest that externally a little differently than me. But it can be challenging to just manage our own emotions when she is dealing with her own stuff. Does that make sense? 

[00:03:14] Leslie: It does make sense. And I guess the first thing I want to say is: I get it. I totally get the frustration of, It's happening again, it's happening again. The frequency, the intensity, those things wear us down. Alex, do you feel that frustration? 

[00:03:35] Alex: Yes, I do. I would say that Jean and I probably feel it in slightly different circumstances, maybe different times of day when either one of us is less fresh or has less emotional energy left to dispense. And that kind of thing happens to me usually when I feel like there's some kind of time schedule thing going on, and I feel like we just need to go and do the thing or whatever it is. And she takes that moment to break down again. And that frustrates me more than other things, I guess. And I guess I don't like how then I am around the kids during those moments because I'm frustrated and I'm maybe speaking to them a little harsher than I would normally. 

[00:04:30] Leslie: Okay, so can I start with just a very obvious question, which is: Is it normal to get frustrated as a parent? 

[00:04:40] Alex: That would be my guess.

[00:04:42] Jean: Definitely. It's like choosing roommates. It's like when you live with someone, if you were going to live with someone for 18 years, you would choose them really carefully. But you can't choose who these people are. They just are suddenly existing and they're stuck with you. And you just have to figure out how to live together. So I think frustration is normal all around. 

[00:05:04] Leslie: Oh my God. And I think that's one of the greatest spiritual practices that exists, the spiritual practice of getting along with someone. So let's start with how hard it is to live with someone else and your children are going to challenge you. I've been in the business for 38, 40 years. I don't know any family that has not been challenged by their children. Even if it's the sheer level of noise and activity and number of times you have to make a meal. 

I mean, think about that. “Oh my God, I have to make another breakfast? I have to make another lunch.?” Even if your kids were so-called “perfect,” whatever that is, and they had no problems, then what about the fact that you have made breakfast and lunch and dinner again and again and again? I mean, it's not easy. 

[00:05:59] Jean: It’s not easy. And when I get filled, like, when I'm frustrated or when I just need a break, my dream is to just be completely alone. Alone in the house. No one's coming. No one is around. Like, I want no eye contact, nothing. And Ellie wants to be merged with me. She wants to be on me, she wants me to be talking to her, she wants…And so we just have these opposite wants and we both get frustrated really easily. So we kind of rub each other… 

[00:06:36] Leslie: …with a little friction. 

[00:06:37] Jean: There's a little friction there, and there has been, ever since she could talk. 

[00:06:40] Leslie: Okay. Alright. So, one, we've just normalized the fact that frustration of living with people is a given and there's a lot of compassion in that, so that I can say to myself, yeah, this is tough. This is tough for anyone. This is not me being a bad parent. This is not me being broken. This is not me being a failure. This is me being a parent; and really embracing that. 

The second thing I want to say is that you want to remember that you and your daughter, each of you, are different people. Even if you have similarities, there are always differences. And the difference that you are describing between what feels refreshing and renewing to you, which is silence and alone time, if I got that right, versus what is refreshing and nourishing to her, which is connection—I want to be together at attachment, I want to be right there with you—those two things are a dialectic dilemma. They are opposite. So the answer to a dialectic dilemma is not a compromise. Many, many people think, Oh, we just have to find the compromise. There's just a very minor difference between a compromise and a synthesis.

[00:07:54] Leslie: It's a little bit semantics. But to explain it, a synthesis, if I have a black idea—I want to be alone—and I have a white idea, which is I want to be together, those are two opposites. If I put it together, I get a gray idea: that's compromise. A gray idea, it loses the black and white, it becomes a new color. So a synthesis takes a white part and a black part and puts them together. What designs do you know have black and white together? Can you name any design patterns? 

[00:08:27] Alex: Hound’s tooth? 

[Laughter]

[00:08:28] Leslie: A what? 

[00:08:30] Alex: Is that what it's called, hound’s tooth? 

[00:08:32] Leslie: What is a hound’s tooth? I have no idea what that is. What is a hound’s tooth? 

[00:08:39] Alex: It's basically a tessellation. It's like white and it's almost a complicated checkerboard, essentially just black and white.

[00:08:44] Leslie: Beautiful. So, checkerboard—I am familiar with. So it's a hound’s tooth or checkerboard. That is one design. Can you name one, Jean?

[00:08:53] Jean: Zebras. 

[00:08:54] Leslie: Great. And then there's, I'll name one which would be polka dots. And the polka dot variation can be a all black background and one white polka dot. Or black and white, 50/50. Or 80% black polka dots. And so the idea is there's probably an infinite number of synthesis solutions. That's what we want to work with. 

[00:09:21] Jean: I think the problem is sometimes I feel like I should, let's say, Ellie's is the white idea, the one where she wants togetherness, so I'll sort of prioritize that. And then I lose it because I'm giving, she has too much space in the pattern. But she's in kindergarten this year and she's in before-school, she's in after-school some of the days; so it feels kind of like I don't get a lot of time with her. So shouldn't I, you know, I want to give her what she really wants too, and it's just…And then by the end of the day, I'm done. Because her part of the pattern, there's not enough black dots. 

[00:10:03] Leslie: Absolutely. And so I think we need to make a long list of brainstorming ideas of how to create new patterns. Let's brainstorm together a few ideas about how to respect the fact that it's a consideration that she's gone from you, she's going to come home and her need to be with you is—it's going to be front and center, right? That's going to be a strong need. And if you've been working all day, you also have a need to have some of that alone time. So what are some brainstorming ideas that can consider both you and her in the process? 

[00:10:47] Jean: Well, there are some things we already do, which, for example, when we're eating dinner, that happens as soon as as she gets home. I have a rule where no one can touch me while I'm eating. I have to restate that rule every single meal. It's like, if I'm eating, don't touch me. 

[00:11:06] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:11:07] Jean: “You’re sitting next to me already, don't touch me. And to ask if you want to hug, to ask. Don't just press your body into me.” So there's things like that we have around mealtime; because one thing I hate is being touched while I'm eating. So the things that are really obvious to me, we’ve sort of already set up little barriers. 

And something I've been trying—not regularly, just some nights—if I know I'm really tired or just done, I'll say, “Okay, I'm setting the timer for 20 minutes. We're going to play a game. Whatever you want, as long as you and your sibling can find something you both want to do, we'll do it all together. And then for 20 minutes, I'm going to read a book and you're not going to bug me. Basically, you're not going to talk to me. You could be in the same room, but I'm not here to help you right now.” So we do things like that. 

[00:11:56] Leslie: Okay. Alex, can you jump in with any ideas? 

[00:12:00] Alex: I don't know if this fits in the kind of thing you're trying to build, but I try to take the kids away to my sister's house some days for a day trip to give Jean some peace and quiet. And that's also taxing for me. And so I try to find some times where I can have some quiet time. But does that work with what you're saying, where I just kind of, I'm trying to jump in and solve it and take the kids away…

[00:12:27] Leslie: You're not trying to jump in and solve it. You're a little hard on yourself there. That's called a synthesis. Yes. It's an excellent idea. And some of the brainstorming part is that we just come up with a wide variety of ideas because, one, we want to practice flexible thinking and multiple options. That actually is something I recommended last session, as well. Maybe you take a five, ten-minute nap.

Any idea is an idea. Whether it works is a different idea. Leaving the kids home—they're six and three—leaving the kids home and taking a walk around the block: not a good idea, doesn't work, right? It doesn't matter. I would still put down, “Take a walk.” Well, how am I going to do that?

Well, actually, if we take a silent walk and we do a scavenger hunt, then I can get them to play outside in the yard and I get my five minutes by myself. So any idea is an idea. Whether it works or not is a second question that we would ask. But I do love the idea of yes, you can take the kids.

We don't want to do that all the time because then you are not feeling balanced in your needs. The other thing I want to say, when we're looking for synthesis: it does not have to be 50/50. Jean, you did just say, “I give 20 minutes to a game and 20 minutes to reading.” Well, 20 minutes to a 6-year-old and a 3-year-old is eternity.

So I know this may not sound like a workable solution, but it may be 20 minutes of a game and five minutes of reading. 

[00:14:15] Jean: But here's the thing, here's the way I do the math. They have each other to play with. They've also not been together all day because they've been—I'm talking like weekdays—they've both been in different places. So the way I look at it is I'm doing them a favor by basically requiring that they play together or just find something else to do. It's like we have an hour of free time after dinner, so here's how we're dividing it up. Because five minutes of reading, that's nothing—I can't even get through one page. It’s got to be, like, a good 20 minutes. Because what you're telling me is that I need fewer black dots on my pattern. And more white dots to make so that Ellie gets what she… 

[00:15:04] Leslie: I hear a lot of shoulds. Like in the perfect world it will be 20, 20, 20: 20 minutes together as a family, 20 minutes the siblings and 20 minutes alone for me. That's a beautiful, ideal world—if you can make it work, fantastic. And I did hear your reaction to, “Wait a minute, I want my black dots in there as well.” Great. I love your dedication to your own needs. I actually think my idea might get you more black dots, but I won't say I told you so until you come back and actually say it worked.

Here's my idea, and it may or may not work. My idea is that we're actually training the kids because your children are young, and so they need some practice at playing on their own or being alone. Some kids are great playing on their own because that's just their natural tendency and others…Really, she wants you. We heard that Ellie wants to be with you, be with you, be with you. So you practicing five minutes together, one minute away, five minutes together, one minute away…you practice that over and over. It can grow more easily of five minutes together, five minutes on your own. And it actually, you shape it from going from what she can do to the harder things.

And so if you start off with 20 minutes…Is it working that you get 20 minutes of reading or does she keep coming in and interrupting you and therefore you don't have 20 minutes alone? Is it working to take the 20 minutes or is it too much of a stretch for her, is what I'm saying. 

[00:16:43] Jean: Right. I think for her, it's not too much of a stretch. We've done the game—it's for her sibling. Her sibling is only three and will just spend half of that time climbing all over me, which actually kind of feels like a massage. So I'm okay with it. I just sort of ignore it and read the book. 

[00:17:01] Leslie: Yes, yes. 

[00:17:01] Jean: But, I see what you mean. I don't like that advice, but I do see what you mean and I will keep it in mind.

[00:17:10] Leslie: Great. It's just another option for you in case something…maybe it's not in the evening, maybe it's on a Saturday or when you're cooking dinner. I have always found that when we say to children…you know, they're, “Mommy, come here. Daddy, come here.” And you say, “I'm busy. I'm making dinner.” It often makes the problem worse. Whereas I might turn off the stove, run in, one minute of saying, “Oh, wow, I noticed that you're coloring with red and green today,” or whatever you do. Then I actually get another 20 minutes of cooking without disturbance rather than, “But come here, come here, come here.”

So, it actually is sometimes we meet the need when it's small. It means it's not going to get big because if I keep saying, “I'm busy, I'm busy and busy,” they just escalate. So it's not like I'm getting rid of their behavior. I want to nip it in the bud. 

[00:18:07] Jean: Well, I tend to turn down a lot of the small things, I think that's what I do. So if I'm cooking dinner and one of them—could be either one—comes in, “Look at this, look at this.” I'll say something like, “I don't know if you noticed, I'm making dinner, so if I look at this now, I'm not going to be able to look at it with the attention you want. Can you save it for when I'm done or for when I can take a break?”

So I turn them down a lot when I'm doing certain tasks. And I don't know if I did what you suggest to sort of pause, “Okay, I'm going to look at all your stuff real quick and then I'm going to go back.” Maybe there would be fewer requests, because there certainly are a lot of requests, right.

But for some reason my instinct is to just say, “No, no, no, no. If it's a little thing, just wait, put it in a physical pile and we'll go take a look at it when I'm done.” 

[00:18:57] Leslie: Yeah, I would say let's vary it up.Let's vary it up, use both strategies and the idea is if you meet the need when it's little, it doesn't need to escalate in order to get met.

So try it both ways and experiment, and see how it works for you and see what happens with them. And maybe it shows flexibility. Yes, I'm cooking. It's a great thing to teach 'em. I'm cooking, I'm not available. And for children, they're just making sure you're still there for them. So yeah, “I'm here. Hello.”

[00:19:33] Jean: Right, because making them dinner that will nourish their bodies is not enough. They're not going to eat it anyway. It's like they don't care that I’m making them dinner.

[00:19:41] Leslie: And yeah, you're not, you don't need to teach them a lesson here. They just want to know that you're connected and there's nothing wrong with saying, “Yep, I'm right here. Hi.” Just making it smaller because you meet the need and the need goes away. They're not going to be feeling, I don't [00:20:00] get it. The other thing is, we have to be careful to not add, “Ugh, I'm cooking. What do you need me to see?” It's important to do it, what we call all the way, which is, Yeah. I can take a break. I can take a break from my cooking for 10 seconds. It might only be 10 seconds. It could be a minute, take a break, walk into their room, and you might even do it without them asking, “Mommy, come here and look.” 

So there are three strategies. One, say, “I'm cooking. I just want you to notice I'm cooking this,” which is the one strategy you're using. The second idea is to say, “Sure, I'm turning off the stove. Show me what you want to see. I really want to see it.” No guilt, “Oh my God, you're interrupting me.” None of that shame or guilt. And the third way is to go in before they ask. It might reduce the need for them to ask altogether. 

[00:20:53] Jean: So basically, I need to be a nicer person.

[00:20:57] Jean: It only really, oh, did those 

[00:20:58] Leslie: Oh, did those words come out of my mouth? 

[Laughter]

[00:21:00] Jean: No, but my natural state is, um, a little bit irritated. I think, especially in the afternoons. Alex was saying we have different times of day when we both are sort of at our, not our worst, but you know, maybe less patient. So for me it's anything after two o'clock. Anything after two o'clock, it's over. It's over. Like, the mornings are great. I can be a different person in the morning, but after lunchtime, it's over. That's an example. I'm looking at my notes. That's an example of rigid thinking. 

[Laughter]

[00:21:34] Leslie: Excellent. It’s all or nothing thinking every afternoon. I'm, I'm no longer good after….Yeah—that's all or nothing. 

[00:21:40] Jean: Yeah. So I see how these are strategies I can try. I think I just still don't know what to do with my just…

[00:21:51] Leslie: …frustration…

[00:21:58] Jean: …almost natural frustration that is going to come out one way or another. And maybe that's just part of my personality and the kids know that. It doesn't mean I'm not there for them, but it's going to come out 

[00:22:04] Leslie: Great. Can we accept both sides of that? One is, this is who you are. So we want to acknowledge that you are that person who gets frustrated and may show that. And you can take responsibility by saying, if you get frustrated, “Wow, I just noticed I was really frustrated or short with you. That might make you feel I don't love you.”

You don't have to do a whole song and dance every time, but every once in a while you can own it, name it, and say, “Yeah, that's my reaction. That's the way I react. If someone else were here, they might react differently.” And then you can do that throughout their childhood, which is great.

Be who you are, accept who you are. And the other side is change. I'm not going to let you off the hook and say, “Oh, don't worry. You get to be who you are.” I'm going to say: work on those parts. If you feel like you are gruff and irritated, would it be helpful, in your own life, to practice regulating that emotion, even when you are tired? “I'm tired, and I can soften my reaction. I'm tired, and I can smile and listen. I'm tired, and I can keep going.” Can you work on that side? 

[00:23:20] Jean: I can work on that side. I have done a lot of work on that side. But it's certainly not…you know, when you put me next to Alex, we just have very different demeanors.

[00:23:33] Leslie: Yes. 

[00:23:34] Jean: And so it, it really stands out. Any gruffness that might or frustration that might come from me, I feel like it's amplified. 

[00:23:48] Alex: I was just going to say, well, you've seen me in the morning sometimes when essentially things aren't going my way, as if my way has to be how things go. I plan on using some of the strategies you've been talking about with Jean, but I also find that at times I get frustrated or short or gruff or whatever are when I'm trying to get us somewhere that I have to be. And so I don't have the time to say, “Okay, let's take two minutes out of getting ready for the bus that's coming in two minutes,” and, you know, attend to whatever it is. And so that all sort of comes at me and I'm like, “Oh, what are we going to do? Got to go now.” 

And I've tried some things, like get up a little earlier, get some things ready ahead of time. It just feels like whatever we do, the available time inevitably gets filled with very timely things that happen, like, “Right when everything was ready to go, and then you chose to, whatever it is, bump your knee or not feel like putting your backpack on, or…” 

[00:25:08] Leslie: Yes, yes. Okay. So these are normal frustrations. Um, accepting a lot of it is very, very important. Being your individual selves and being different so that the children get to see that there are differences in human beings and tolerating diversity. And tolerance is a huge, beautiful thing that we forget that we're teaching our children every day. When there are co-parents, they get to see—or just out in the world—that different people react in different ways. And I have no apology for that. I love that you might get irritated, Alex, over timely things; and Jean, you get irritated just in the afternoon because you're exhausted or the kids need you. And so all of these things are part of parenting and there's nothing wrong with them.

(Music: Life Journey by Music For Videos)

[00:26:10] Leslie: The other thing I want to say that you might want to consider—and this is an expression I hear parents say, but I'm going to use it because I think it's going to make sense to you, and then we're going to get rid of the judgment of it—do your children push your button? Do you want to say something, Jean?

[00:26:29] Jean: Yes. I have something to say and I'm sure you're about to tell me how I should think about this a different way. But there's just a few things Ellie says that immediately I just feel enraged. One of them is when she says, she has a request, like, “Oh, will you look at my picture, now?” She'll add this “now” on the end.

And the other one is she'll say, “right?, because she needs you to respond to anything, even if it's a statement. So it's like, “Sky's blue today, right?” And so I told her, I said, “I have irritation buttons—I have irritate buttons—and here are the things that push them.” And so now she knows that every time she says the word, “now,” she'll be like, “I pushed your button. I pushed your button.”

Which makes it funnier, which helps. I do like a good, making fun of, but... So yes, not only do I believe that I have buttons that get pushed, I also have taught my child which ones they are, and she tells me when she's pushing them. So now you can tell me how to think about that differently. Because I'm sure that's what you're about to say. 

[00:27:39] Leslie: Okay. So I think that's really funny because, of course we don't have buttons to push and you both figured out that there are certain…we call them vulnerabilities. We can call them prompting events. We can call them the proper name, which sounds way too clinical. That was a prompting event for your emotional reaction.

We don't need to use that language with her. Nothing wrong with using it. The fun of saying, “I pushed your buttons,” is fine if you take responsibility that she's not causing you to get upset. That's called blaming and shaming— “You’re at fault.” Every day in my therapy, I do trauma work with people to undo the shaming that children experience growing up, and that is, I'm bad because I made my mother angry. I'm bad because I made my mother frustrated. 

I don't care if you play with the push buttons, but you can push buttons and it's up to me whether I react or not. That's my job. That's my choice. So you can push the button all day and I get to decide whether I react or not react. It's not your fault when I react.

So somehow you have to get that message across loud and clear. You want to get that message across. Otherwise she's walking away with, a) I have all this power over my mother; and b) it's my fault that my mother gets upset. 

[00:29:13] Jean: Yeah, that's true. I mean, I can see that sometimes kids might play that game because it helps them sort of figure out how much power they do have. And I think, not in the sense that they, they want, but just like if a kid is uncomfortable, they're going to push until they make sure they're safe. So it's, I think it'll be easy, at least in that game. Because it has become kind of a game now to just make it clear like, “You said the word, ‘now,’ 20 times and look, I didn't get irritated because I'm in charge of that. I can get irritated when I want to get irritated. You're actually not responsible for that.” 

So, I can do that in that case, but I am curious, Alex, because you experience the way I am with the kids; I don't, I'm in it. Do you think there's any kind of unintentional shame or blame going on? 

[00:30:06] Alex: Not that I've noticed so far. But I feel, like, for all I know, kids are really good at not showing that until later or something. I've also, on my end, I've experienced…sometimes our kids are surprisingly good at articulating something that happened and how they feel about it when I may have spoken to them a certain way. Like, “Remember this morning, I didn’t like, you know, the voice you used when we were getting ready and I wasn't going fast enough. I was, like, Whoa, good for you. And it sort of kicks me and I think, okay, I can sit down with them and talk about how I can be frustrated, I can take ownership of that, and respond differently than I did.

And that's nothing to do with you. Sorry. So sometimes the kids really help guide us in that too. 

[00:31:10] Leslie: Okay. And I want to go back for a second to the idea that children getting their need met. This idea of getting power over you. So if I say, now, mommy, if I say right, mommy, I have power over you. And it's not a manipulation whatsoever, they are getting a need met.

And I want you to take a second look at: is she trying to push my button or did this start with a need that she has? So for example, what do you think her need is when she says, “The sky is blue, right? 

[00:31:46] Jean: She just wants to talk to me. She wants me to have a conversation with her. She wants me to respond. She wants me to smile at her. Yeah, she just  wants to chat.

[00:31:58] Leslie: She might want the connection, which is a deeper sense of, I want to chat, I want to feel connected. She might also be saying, I want to get assurance. If I don't know 100%, 180% that the sky is blue, I need to have reassurance.

A highly sensitive person is, “Am I right? Am I right? Am I right?” It's that feeling of, “I need assurance even when I know the sky is blue.” So there's that underlying: is she doing it in a way that feels compulsive? And then it's not about pushing your buttons. It's about, “I need. I really feel like I have to have this answer in order for me to feel safe.”

Remember last time we talked about feeling safe and capable, maybe with that, right, right, right? is less about the power over you and more about, “I have a need and I need to make sure I get my need met.” 

[00:32:55] Jean: Right. And I think it became a game because it sort of made her more aware of how often she says those two words. Because it does happen a lot. And sometimes I don't know if I respond well, but sometimes she'll say, “I'm scared of this, right?” Or, “I like this song, right?” I'm, “I don't know. You're the one who knows. I don't know what you like; do you like it? And if you like it, then you like it.” [Laughter]

[00:33:32] Leslie: So, the last thing I want to say here, Because I could talk for days on this is: lean in. See if you can take a pause before you react. And when she says “Right? Is it right?”, just say, “I'm curious if it is, if you think it is what you like…”  I forgot the statement she was making. But lean into her rather than your reaction because your reaction is about you. And I want to make this about her…Send it back to her with curiosity and openness and willingness to, I want to connect to you so I'm not shutting you down. And it's not about me, which is, “I can't believe you're asking me…”

Really go back and make it about her so that it is eventually her problem to solve and not, “I just get Mommy upset. Mommy's always upset with me.” Because like you said, Alex, maybe children think this and they don't share with us. I do think that's the case. I think children do have an interpretation. They might be worried that, I need to feel connected to Mom and if she's upset, I need to go more. 

I asked this question before for both of you, whether it's the time management and getting frustrated, is: are our children helping us grow? So by being late, being slower, not being on time, or whatever their behavior is for your children, are they giving you an opportunity to deal with this should, to deal with this pressure of time management. Can I manage my own emotion around this? It's really a very intricate system of, they're meeting their needs and you get to grow and be challenged as you raise your children. 

So I want to go back and find out about last session. I'm so curious, do you have feedback for me from last session, the things you tried, maybe something works, maybe something didn't work? Any feedback for me? 

[00:35:43] Alex: Well, the main thing that we were trying so far to help Ellie deal with physical discomfort situations was making this list of how “I handled it.” And to make it more palatable to her, we named it, “I can handle it. “

[00:36:03] Leslie: Oh, that's great. You're showing me the list. I can handle it in her own handwriting and then one side and the other side. Wow, that's fantastic. 

[00:36:12] Alex: So the main thing so far is just that she kind of seemed to enjoy doing it. It was sort of a little outlet or a way to engage with us about it. We haven't done a whole lot of reflecting on it yet with her. She might be doing a little bit of that herself as she just sort of records them, but I think that it has potential. 

[00:36:36] Leslie: Excellent. Any other feedback? That's so cool. And I do think just by doing it—you don't have to keep going back and processing it more—it sinks in. That little picture that you just showed me of her T-graph of when does it work, when does it not work is a great way of: just put it in front of her, show it to her and let her, let it do its own work.

[00:37:00] Jean: And it taught me something too. Because I remember last time, I think we, I was probably, I tend to exaggerate, so I may have been saying things like, she's always crying or running away. But then I look at the things she put on the lis. So, basically the left side is: here's what happened that was uncomfortable; and the right side is: here's how you handled it.

And they're all different. Every single thing is different. They're not all the same thing. And one of them is even, Ignored it. That was the first one she brought to me. She's like, “Mommy, I stubbed my toe and how I handled it is I ignored it.” I was like, “Oh, wow. I didn't know you ever did that.”

So it taught me that I'm probably picking up on the reactions that sort of strike me the most. It doesn't mean that she's not also doing all of these other things. It helps us all, I think, to write them down and get a better picture of what she's doing. 

[00:37:57] Leslie: Beautiful. You also focused a little bit on your language. When we talk about the problematic thinking patterns of disqualifying—the positive you were missing—some information you were missing. And that exercise actually helped you see, Oh wow, I didn't even know this was happening.

So it keeps our perspective nice and wide. Which is great for you. Great for her. Great for your children overall. And I want to add one element before we wrap up. And that is: keep doing what you're doing. You are doing a fantastic job. You do so much awareness naming it, noticing it—these are all things I talk about all the time. I have a suggestion to try a little less hard. Why do you think I say that to the two of you? 

[00:38:50] Jean: We don't know!

[Laughter] 

[00:38:54] Leslie: Because I see how hard you're working. Because I see how hard you're trying to get it each and every time. And believe it or not, the lesson I'm taking away from, “I stubbed my toe and I ignored it,” is sometimes in parenting we have to let things go.

We have to let the messiness go. We don't have to make everything—I'm not saying that you do this, but—we don't have to make everything a lesson. We don't have to get it all right. I think children sometimes feel pressure when we always have to get it right or we try so hard. You're trying so hard to get out of the house on time. You're trying so hard to give her the awareness. You're trying so hard to not blame and not shame. I think that puts pressure on the two of you, and I think the children pick up on the pressure we feel as parents. As a matter of fact, the surgeon general came out and said parents are too stressed, so I'm not making this up.

And I am seeing something that…I'm curious if trying a little less hard might exhaust you a little less, might make your mornings when you're trying to get out the door a little less pressured. Might make the afternoons when you are tired, a little less precious. Like, “Okay, I'm not at my best in the afternoon.” Does that make sense? 

[00:40:14] Jean: It makes sense. And I feel like there's that, that little hurdle to start trying less, which I think relates to…So before we started, we talked about how there were these people who, rather than sit in silence for 10 minutes, would rather give themselves electric shocks because they were bored. There is this discomfort a lot of people have with just sort of pausing and sitting with themselves. 

And so for me, I know that's the hurdle. It's like, yeah, I could take it a little easy, but that requires me remembering what it is that I like to do when I'm not focusing on all of these other things. What is she feeling? What is she doing? What does he need, what does…? And because that little hurdle is hard, even though it's short term hard, I just avoid it. 

But I do see what you mean. I think that could help. And there have been times, I think, when we live more like that, and then there's times when it sort of drifts back into this more anxiety-filled stress time. You know, school started, all this stuff seems like it's very much on a schedule, and we have to do this and this. So I see where you're coming from, I think. We'll ebb and flow, back and forth. 

[00:41:30] Leslie: Okay. You use that “a” word, avoidance. And sometimes your need for getting away from all that is avoidance and sometimes it's really effective. And the last thing I want to say, because I remember you saying in the session at the doctor's office last time, that you were worried about the nurse’s need to get to other patients. That's exhausting, having all those worry thoughts. So maybe you need a break from your own worry thoughts rather than a break from your kids.

[00:42:01] Jean: Oh, I mean, sure, but that's a whole ‘nother, that's a different therapy show, Leslie. 

[Laughter]

[00:42:09] Leslie: That is—that's the individual therapy we go down. But I'm going to plant that seed. I'm going to plant that seed because as you said at the beginning, some of the challenges we face are our own frustrations and not what our children are doing.

And I love that you brought that up. So, keep doing what you're doing. I love that you're doing it. And see if you can play with the synthesis of finding different kinds of solutions. See how creative you can be and maybe the kids can throw some ideas out as well. 

[00:42:42] Jean: Yes, Ellie would love that. She loves to plan. So, thanks Leslie. 

[00:42:45] Alex: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Dreams in nature by Olexy

[00:42:53] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Some of our listeners have said to me that the title of this podcast should be, Am I A Monster?, because parents feel guilty or badly when they get annoyed and irritated at their child. And just like I say, no, your child is not a monster. I want to repeat, loud and clear: No, you are not a monster. It's okay, because these are normal and understandable emotions for a parent.

And yes, just as we are trying to teach our children to be responsible for their emotions, it's essential to remember that you are also responsible for your own. So, Jean and Alex are very well aware of their feelings of frustration and annoyance. And guess what? So are their kids. Your kids pick up on when you are having big emotions as well.

They are tuned into how the parent is doing and they may react—they may misbehave, they may get scared, they may take it internally and think that they've done something wrong to cause you to get upset. So it's really important for us to be responsible, as I just said, for our own emotions. 

But I also want to say, you get to be who you are. You get to be annoyed and frustrated, because it's a normal feeling. And I want to take a moment to just remind us that there are messages that we get from our society that say we need to be the perfect parent. And that when your child is born, you're going to automatically love them. Well, guess what? Not everybody automatically loves their child as soon as they're born.

And just the same way, not every parent can be cool, calm and collected. We're all wired differently. We all have our own personal vulnerability so that you may be more irritable to the noise level, the constant needs of your child. And I just want to say, you can still be a very effective parent, and that's what we focus on, and that's what's exciting about being a parent and listening to this podcast.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

It gives you the tools to help you feel confident and competent. And this week, take a look and recognize those vulnerabilities so your kids don't do it first, because they're going to notice it. And join us next Tuesday for my final session with Jean and Alex, where we explore emotional regulation strategies to help manage things like dinnertime, getting out of the house, and all those other times when kids tend to struggle.

You can subscribe to, Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. And thanks so much for listening.

Transcribed by Eric Rubury