Why Your Child's Play Is Essential Communication with Special Guest Jennifer Sims

In this episode, Leslie and special guest Jen Sims, a licensed professional counselor and registered play therapist, talk about the importance of play. Jen explains that play is the language of children, allowing them to express emotions and experiences. She specializes in Non-directive Play Therapy, which involves creating an environment where children can fully engage in play without feeling hurried. Jen emphasizes the principles of empathy, congruence, and unconditional positive regard, and discusses how play therapy can help children heal from trauma, behavioral issues, and other challenges.

Time Stamps

2:06 Play is the story that kids are writing about themselves

2:25 Definition of Play Therapy and the kinds of therapy

3:35 Reasons why children may go to therapy

5:47 Carl Rogers A person centered therapist:  3 tenets of his therapy

• Empathy
• Congruence
• Unconditional Positive Regard

5:55 Virginia Axline developed Non-Directive Play Therapy - 8 principles (see show notes for more formal list)

6:35 Definition of Unconditional positive regard doesn’t mean I love your behavior..it means I love you

7:45 Explaining the non-directive part of non-directive play therapy

8:20 Trust the child to move towards healing

10:45 Mirroring and attunement is something parents can also do at home to enrich and depend their relationship with their child

12:35 Children play in themes

15:35 Description of Fiial Play Therapy that parents can do it at home

17:15 Explaining the process of attunement

20:44 Setting limits around safety and other things requires consistency

22:59 Both Parents and children need empathy to feel understood

25:31 AutPlay is play therapy specifically designed for Neurodivergent kids

28:37 Jen’s advice for parents - 

31:35 We can trust children to lead the way with creative solutions towards their own healing

Resources:  

Video of Play as a form of communication

Jen Sims Website at the Redwood Center for Children And Families 

Jen Sims Instagram

Article on Non-directive Play Therapy and The Underlying Principles by Cognitive Behavioral Play Therapy

Filial Play Therapy

AutPlay Therapy Resources

Registration for Leslie’s  NEABPD Webinar on “Defiance, Disrespect and Disobedience: What Is It and What To Do About IT

Leslie-ism: Set aside 20 minutes to let your child lead the way in play

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and 

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

[00:00:00] Jen: When a child receives unconditional positive regard, when they're met with attunement, when they are allowed to play what they want to play, when they have appropriate limits set and boundaries for safety, they thrive.

[00:00:28] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Welcome to Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. And no, your child is not a monster. Just misunderstood. 

Today, I'm joined by play therapist Jen Sims. You may know her from TikTok or Instagram where she's amassed a huge following because of the accessible way she explains play therapy. Jen is a licensed professional counselor and a registered play therapist with over 16 years of experience. Jen works with both families and individuals, with a specialty in neurodivergent children, to help children and their families process emotions, work through changes, heal from traumatic experiences, and dream up new and daring ways to be in the world.

She's based in California at the Redwood Center for Children and Families. I am so excited to have her here with me today. 

Now, as a reminder, though I'm a licensed clinical social worker. This show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. 

[00:01:44] Leslie: Hi, Jen. 

[00:01:46] Jen: Hi, Leslie.

[00:01:47] Leslie: Thanks so much for being here. 

[00:01:49] Jen: Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:51] Leslie: Sure. Well, I want to talk about play. It's a great topic. Can you tell me, why play? What's the importance of it? 

[00:02:00] Jen: Play is the language of children. That's how they communicate their emotions and their feelings and their stories.

[00:02:08] Jen: I think play is the story that kids are writing about themselves. And it's the best way to be with a child. 

[00:02:20] Leslie: Yes. So, can you give us a definition of what play therapy is and what would happen in play therapy? 

[00:02:27] Jen: Play therapy is using play as a way to understand what is happening in the room. And there are so many different forms of play therapy, just like there's so many different forms of therapy. There's cognitive behavioral play therapy, gestalt play therapy, child-centered play therapy—I could really go on and on. But what they all have in common is that play is the way that a child will express themselves. It is not playing cards and talking. It's creating an environment where a child's brain can relax and truly engage in play fully, and without feeling hurried or anything like that. 

[00:03:23] Leslie: Okay, beautiful. What would bring a child to your office? 

[00:03:28] Jen: Lots of different things. Something like a traumatic event has happened that is really clear. Behavioral issues at school, relationship issues, bonding between parents, grief, loss, death in the family. Anything that is getting in the way of a kid's functioning and happiness can bring them in.

And there are some children that I've been seeing, maybe I started off with something big, but we continued on. I'm kind of a long-term therapist, so I see people—even adults—for usually longer periods of time. In play therapy, my goal is not to say, “Here's a lot of tools to deal with your life.” It's to help a child feel good from the inside out. So that the only time they need tools is when something really big is happening. A big test. Going on a podcast. Things that are scary, not just like regular life going to school. Play therapy can help a child heal all over. That's my goal.

[00:04:41] Leslie: That's beautiful. So, you were just describing the many different types of play therapy. Can you talk about your specialty? 

[00:04:51] Jen: My specialty is child-centered play therapy, and this type of therapy was created by Virginia Axline in the 1940s. She studied with Carl Rogers, who was a person-centered therapist, and he had the three principles: empathy, congruence and unconditional positive regard. Virginia Axline created the eight principles of non-directive play therapy. And from there more people kind of added onto that and created child-centered play therapy. And it really is, I think, the first place—no matter where you go in child-centered play therapy—I think it's the first place to start in understanding exactly how play works. 

[00:05:36] Leslie: So, can you repeat those three Carl Rogers ones and then her eight principles? 

[00:05:44] Jen: So Carl Rogers' principles are empathy, congruence, and unconditional positive regard. And Virginia Axline’s are, like, building rapport with a child. Having a sense of permissiveness, not doing anything for a child that they could do for themselves. Using reflective language, setting limits consistently, opportunities for creative expression. And toys to use in the room to express those things which, with the idea, given the right environment, a child will move right to health.

[00:06:31] Leslie: So one more definition, what was the word you used?

[00:06:36] Jen: Unconditional Positive regard. 

[00:06:37] Leslie: Unconditional positive regard. Would you give us a little definition of that? 

[00:06:41] Jen: Unconditional positive regard is accepting somebody, no matter what. It doesn't mean you agree with what they did. Doesn't mean I love it. It means, I love you. I see you as a whole person. I see that you're so much more than what's happening. And it works. If a child wants to come in and say, “I'm a baby today. I need to be a baby,” I'm not going to say, “But you're ten. You shouldn't use baby talk.” I'm going to meet them where they are and trust that this is what they need to do for their healing. They're regressing a little bit. And accept them so that they really can regress in that way until they catch back up. Because sometimes that's what people need to do.

[00:07:38] Leslie: Beautiful.Those are great principles and. Your child-centered play therapy that you do: are there any other distinctions that make it unique? 

[00:07:50] Jen: I think the non-directive nature of it is really wild for people and that it gives children so much power and control and autonomy is hard for people to understand. And I think also the idea that the tools are so intrinsic, 

[00:08:07] Leslie: So the non-directive is so important. And I think connecting that to the idea that we can trust the kids to move towards healing—you said that's hard for parents to understand. What kind of comments do you hear from parents that make you believe it's hard for them to understand this?

[00:08:30] Jen: Well, they might say, “Are you going to tell them that they shouldn't wake up late for school?” Or, “Did they talk to you about what happened with their dad?” And I would say, “No, but they played it. Their theme…They did come in and put out a house fire.” It's hard for people to understand that I'm actually speaking a different language with children. I am speaking the language of play and that's how I'm getting all the info. And I can get way more information actually, than I ever would or could by talking. 

[00:09:17] Leslie: Interesting. So yes, I think parents want their children to go to therapy, to sort of talk out, how to do their homework, how to play with their friends nicely, or get up for school or whatever, to follow their directions. And this non-directive play seems a way to get to those things without you directing it and letting them communicate those issues to you. 

[00:09:47] Jen: Yeah. And maybe they don't care about those issues.

[00:09:51] Leslie: Yes. That's fantastic. That's not what's important. 

[00:09:52] Jen: I am working on what's important to them, and it's usually the right thing.

[00:10:00] Leslie: So, how can parents apply this at home? 

[00:10:05] Jen: Home and school are different. Um, okay. Because a child really does need to get information in all different kinds of ways. But this is therapy, and in therapy I don't decide what my clients are going to work on. You would think it was strange as an adult if I said, this is what we're going to work on today.

I don't tell children what to do, but out in the world, yeah, you've got rules. You are going to give them information, you're going to have talks with them because that's your job. And understanding play, understanding how to talk to kids in a way that provides empathy. Unconditional positive regard is reflective and uses a lot of mirroring and attunement to help them express themselves is going to be so much richer.

So I think these skills can enrich and deepen your relationships. And yes, there are rules in the world.

[00:11:07] Leslie: So it communicates their emotions. They're in a world. I imagine that the majority of the children that are brought to you for play therapy, are they on the younger side?

[00:11:24] Jen: It really depends. Child-centered play therapy, the recommended age is three through ten. And some kids play a little bit longer and some kids wrap it up a little earlier and maybe start trying to talk. I've had the fortune of seeing some kids, across their lifespan, from very young to now older. And so I've seen the transformation of play. But I think understanding play therapy is something that I apply to everyone at every age, in my caseload. 

[00:12:03] Leslie: Sometimes when we ask a direct question of, “How are you feeling?” Or, “How did this affect you?” It's almost too big of a question. They don't exactly know where to go. But I imagine that if they're playing and there's an opportunity, through play, to communicate confusion or fear or something like that, is that what you are seeing is that they are communicating these inner feelings that are hard to put words to. 

[00:12:33] Jen: Yes. Children play in themes, so they might come in and play themes that are very aggressive. They might be verbally aggressive. They might be sword fighting. They might put characters in peril over and over again. They might play things that are very punitive. So it's not necessarily, like, This is what happened at home and I am coming and just playing out that exact scenario. It's little takes on the scenario that kind of show how they feel about it. I felt helpless, I felt scared. I felt victimized. I felt powerless. And so some of the play is about power and control and, How can I have power in this room or how can I control my situation here? 

[00:13:32] Leslie: So you see these themes?

[00:13:34] Jen: Yes. 

[00:13:35] Leslie: Themes of power and control. Do you see the themes of attachment and abandonment? 

[00:13:39] Jen: Yes, definitely. 

[00:13:40] Leslie: Any other themes that you… 

[00:13:42] Jen: Yes. Nurturing, like, taking care of dolls, playing with a dollhouse…One of the first things I might see a kid do when they come to the playroom is move into the dollhouse. Which I think is really interesting. And then give me a checkup, like, Who are you? Let me find out more. Are you safe? In the trajectory of play therapy, one of the first phases is a testing phase where a kid is saying, Are you safe? Are you okay? Can I test your boundary? Are you really going to hold your boundary? They do it all through play, and it's really fascinating. 

[00:14:24] Leslie: Safety is a theme that I talk about in my podcast a lot, because when a child doesn't feel safe, whether it's overstimulation of sensory integration issues or not feeling safe because they don't have the skills to handle a social situation. Safety is a big issue that we see for kids. So I can understand why they would test and see, Hey, are you healthy? Are you there? Are you all okay? 

[00:14:56] Jen: Are you safe for me to share my deepest dreams and desires? Are you really going to let me do and say almost anything I want to do and say in here.

[00:15:08] Leslie: Right, right.

[Music: Acoustic Guitar Indie Background Music by Music for Video]

[00:15:21] Leslie: So, are there elements from play therapy that can be applied in home? 

[00:15:29] Jen: Yes. One of the things, an offshoot of Child-Centered Play Therapy is called Filial Therapy. And Filial Therapy actually teaches parents the skills of Child-Centered Play Therapy so that they can do, not all the time, but, like, a special playtime at home and become agents of change.

And the thing about learning about child-centered play therapy is, it just becomes like a way to be, not as much even a set of skills. It's your attitude toward children and who they are in the world. So, teaching parents to recognize what a child means by their play, recognize how to respond and really communicate, is so bonding.

[00:16:20] Leslie: I'd love to hear more about that because, in episode after episode, I talk about creating a connection. And so I'm hearing you say that there is a way that parents, through play and these skills or this attitude, can really foster that connection. 

[00:16:39] Jen: When a child receives unconditional positive regard, when they're met with attunement, when they are allowed to play what they want to play, when they have appropriate limits set and boundaries for safety that are really consistent, they thrive, they feel good inside. And a parent can do that with their child. And many parents do, naturally. I hear them all the time. 

[00:17:14] Leslie: Can you describe attunement a little bit more? 

[00:17:17] Jen: Yes. I think attunement is being with somebody and even energetically, “I can kind of feel like you might have anxiety or you might be feeling a little.” When a kid walks in here and they're going….and I was like, “What's going on? Are you okay?” That wouldn't really be attuned. It's kind of clear what's happening, and so I might say, “You're not sure what to do in here.” And they're like, “Yeah.” Okay. You're understanding me and I don't have to explain it. So, meeting them where they are.

[00:17:58] Leslie: Okay, so attuning them is something I might call going below the surface. I have my own little language around it. And it's seeing the child, maybe not what they're saying or doing, but maybe what they're feeling or trying to express underneath it. 

[00:18:16] Jen: Yes. 

[00:18:18] Leslie: So, can you give another example? 

[00:18:20] Jen: Maybe a kid, looking at something and looking curious and saying, “You want to open this, but you're not sure if you're allowed.” Or a kid saying, “Hey, what time is it?” “You want to make sure you have enough time to get your work finished?” And they might say, “No, actually I just want to leave right now.” So, if you are not in attunement, there's a chance to say, “Here's how to get in attunement with me. This is actually what's happening. And seeing what's happening, what story they might be telling. Also, when you're doing imaginative play, there's a lot of reflection going on. Where I'm responding, but I'm responding in character. 

But I kind of know a little bit about their story and what's going on or why they might be presenting this theme. So I would choose to make a reflection in character that is appropriate to the storyline. And also sometimes kids are like, “No, say this or say that; act sad.”

And if I'm not sure, I can say, “Should I act sad? Should I be happy?” And they can say, “Act happy.” Oh, okay. So it's an ongoing experience too. It's not something you just settle into and you're good. You keep reaching for attunement. You keep reaching for it.

[00:19:52] Leslie: Is this also what you would be teaching some families if they're going to be doing it at home? 

[00:19:58] Jen: Yes. Like, how do you look at your child and say this is what's really going on? “It's so hard to make a transition. It's so hard to say goodnight. We're going to miss each other so much. And in this house, we go to bed at nine,” or whatever time you go to bed. But you're kind of saying, “I see you. I see you again and again.” And some people don't want to be seen and that's okay. But kids getting that from their parents is invaluable. 

[00:20:35] Leslie: Yes. I call it gold. 

[00:20:37] Jen: What's really going on.

[00:20:39] Leslie: You started to name a limit there, “...and we go to bed here at nine o'clock.”. 

[00:20:44] Jen: Limit setting in the playroom is very, very consistent. I would say that's the main thing about it. So, the rules of the playroom are really around safety and they can change, depending on what's going on.

Sometimes we can't be very loud because we have neighbors; but sometimes we can be very loud. But you're not allowed to break something on purpose. And let's say a child is trying to test a limit and they want to know what's going happen if they break something. So they might do a little testing thing and I say, “In here we don't break things on purpose, but you can do almost anything else.”

And then maybe they try it again. “Hey, I said in here you don't, we can't break things on purpose, but you can do almost anything else. If you break something on purpose, we are going to end the session.” And if they break it on purpose, we will end the session. I've only done that a few times in my whole career. It's the consistency—they know that I'm really going to end a session if they break something, on purpose. 

So teaching parents about the value of consistency in limit setting; and whatever kind of system you have, you've got to have a system that you do all the time. And so I might suggest saying something like, “In here, in this house we go to bed at nine. In here, we share our toys.” Like, what's the culture of our house; and if you can't do that, having a consequence that you don't drag out or you don't say, “Actually you can have all that stuff.” You say, “This happened and I am setting an appropriate boundary and I'm sticking by it.”

[00:22:31] Leslie: So that understanding a child does not mean not setting some limits. All of this comes down to helping the parents see through a child's perspective. That's also what I'm getting, is to help parents understand the child's perspective. Because that's what I am hoping to do—I hope to help parents see what's going on through their child's eyes.

[00:22:59] Jen: I think it helps almost every time, having empathy for a child. I'm constantly having empathy for parents; and using the skills that I use in Child-Centered Play Therapy with them, as a model. But also I might be able to say, “Hey, your child's playing that. They have the most special and important room in the whole house and nobody can get in that. And they're also saying that they have a sibling that doesn't get as much, and I'm wondering what their relationship is like with their sibling at home. Is everything feeling fair?” So I can kind of give insight even without saying that much about the play. 

But I can say, “I can see I'm seeing a lot of play that's reflecting some tension between siblings, like they think they should have more,” or something like that. So I can give insight about the play. And parents might be like, “Oh yeah, that does make sense. Yeah, they are different ages. We have been putting them to bed at the same time. I guess maybe we should change that.” So just finding out what's really going on and even just having that one experience, I think transcends into their life.

[00:24:23] Jen: And they start looking more and more like, “Who is my child? And what are they really saying? 

[00:24:27] Leslie: As individuals, right? They are part of this family and we see that children show up differently. They will have their own sense of fairness. We hear that a lot from children. And not all children, but some have that, I call it the fairness gene, where some kids feel like everything has to be fair or unfair. I'm sure you see that in the play—winning and losing, what's fair, what's not fair. 

Is there anything you want to say about working with neurodivergent children and the differences you see in maybe the way they play? Not because they're doing anything right or wrong, but because that's their way of interacting. 

[00:25:15] Jen: I’ve got a lot of neurodivergent children in my practice because non-directive therapy is very ideal for somebody who is looking at the world through a different lens and needs somebody to view things from their perspective.

I'm trained in something called AutPlay, which is play-specific for children with neurodivergence. I usually just offer non-directive play of all kinds, and what I find is that divergence from the process really works for people with neurodivergence. 

[00:25:51] Leslie: Do you have a story that you might share around that?

[00:25:53] Jen: In my work I use a lot of reflection. I don't try to answer a lot of questions because a question isn't always a question. I will wait and see if they really, really want an answer first, because sometimes they do not. But I might find if I answer a question that might shift something in a way that I might not have thought. Or sometimes people have different ideas about, like, “I don't want a five minute time limit. I want a seven minute time limit, because sevens are good numbers and fives are not.” And so things like that, just rolling with all of those. Like, okay, I can do that. I can do a seven minute and not a five minute warning. 

I think another piece about working with neurodivergent people is I have a lot of items that meet sensory needs—weighted things, squishy things, soft things, hard things, putties, that kind of thing. And so just keeping all of that in mind when working with kids. And also recognizing that some of their play is very sensory-seeking and being able to communicate that back to parents, like, Do you have a weighted blanket at home? Do you have putty? Have you tried squeezing something? So making recommendations like that also come with working with neurodivergent kids. 

I get a lot of feedback on TikTok, like, sorting play is autistic, and that's just not the case. I find people on the spectrum to be incredibly imaginative and creative, and they have no problem with imaginative play. Sometimes they do sort. And so I just wanted to say that that's something that I think people think might happen. 

[00:28:00] Leslie: Yes. I think it's really important for us not to just limit the way we look at an autistic brain, a child, for doing one thing—we know that's too limiting. And the neurodivergent population is way more than autistic as well. You've got the ADHD child, you've got the learning-differently children.

[00:28:28] Jen: Traumatized children—I think they're very neurodivergent. 

[00:28:31] Leslie: Yes. I'm just wondering what advice would you give to parents about play. 

[00:28:37] Jen: Play with your child, follow their lead. Act as if they are a director. If they are telling you exactly what to do, that's great. There's no wrong way to play. Aggression is great to play. It doesn't mean that they're going to take that out into the world. In fact, it's better to get it out in play. It's the greatest way for your child to feel seen, heard, and understood. And you don't have to do it all day every day. A concentrated amount once a week or twice a week is really good. 

[00:29:18] Leslie: Before we started, the title of my podcast being Is My Child a Monster?, you had a comment that I wanted to come back to. I make it very, very clear that parents who come in, worried about their children, worried that their child's behavior is mind-boggling to them. They don't understand it. “Is that my child going to be a monster,” we really want parents to understand: No, they may not be understood. 

[00:29:47] Jen: I don't think children, of any kind, are monsters. Your child is not a monster. And your child is probably very creative and smart and energetic and has a lot of beautiful ideas. And if you can create the environment, they will go toward that. They will go toward goodness if you create the space and environment for them to be authentic to themselves. 

[00:30:15] Leslie: And it's very hard for parents—I want to acknowledge that children's behavior is not always easy and going towards it is counterintuitive. We want to change it, we want to fix it; and instead, I think leaning in a little bit, to see them in what they're trying to express is really where we get the change that they're looking for. So it's a little counterintuitive. 

[00:30:41] Jen: Yes. And well, kids are supposed to be doing all of this stuff. That's their job. They're learning and growing and making mistakes. And if they have something that really needs a lot of help, that's also out there. There's help out there. 

[00:30:57] Leslie: So I say this over and over again. I believe that is part of your work, where we look at behavior as communication. 

[00:31:04] Jen: Yes. 

[00:31:05] Leslie: And those children coming in and expressing themselves with misbehavior or things that we don't agree are working for them, it's still communication. 

[00:31:18] Jen: And when kids come into play, I think it's a huge relief too, to just feel that they get it out. 

[00:31:25] Leslie: Right. So I really thank you for coming in and sharing some of these ideas. Any final words of what you'd like to share? 

[00:31:35] Jen: I think we can trust children. We can let them lead the way. They make amazing decisions about their own healing and come up with more creative solutions than I could ever think of. And if we give them a chance and the opportunity, they will do that.

[00:31:53] Leslie: Those are words that I will carry with me. They're very comforting to remind ourselves that we can trust children.

[00:32:02] Leslie: Jen, thank you so much. 

[00:32:04] Jen: Thank you.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

[00:32:09] Leslie: I want to thank Jen Sims for being here today. She is a wealth of information about play therapy, and if you want to learn more about what she does, you can search Redwood Center for Children on social media platforms, or go to my show notes where you'll get links for her work and additional resources about play therapy.

And this week, set aside 20 minutes to let your child lead the way in play. 

Before I tell you about next week, I want to let you know that I'm giving a free webinar that I'm super excited about. It's called, Defiance, Disrespect and Disobedience: What is it and What To Do About It. It's hosted by the National Educational Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder, and it's on April 24th at 7:30 Eastern Time. And it's free, but you do need to register for access. You can find a link to do that in the show notes. 

Join us next week when we meet a new family, desperate to help their 11-year-old navigate her big emotions and social challenges before she gets to high school. 

Subscribe to Is My Child a Monster? wherever you get your podcast. And please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for listening.

Transcribed by Eric Rubury