Nicky & AJ Part 1 of 4: When Your Child's Defiance is Confusing

Parents often wonder why their children won’t do what they ask them to do. This often creates conflict and disrespect in the family system. And for the parent, it's very confusing and irritating when you “couldn’t get away with that” when you were a child. In this episode, Nicky and AJ share their concerns, frustrations and fears regarding their 11 year old daughter, Lily.  Lily has had big emotional reactions throughout her life and Nicky and AJ are fearful for her teenage years.  They also admit to their own challenges with emotion regulation. In this episode, we focus on assessing and problem solving Lily's communication as well as managing expectations in the family. We also work on turning conflict into collaboration and respect.

Time Stamps

4:47 Name your fears and get them out of the way of parenting

7:32 Go below the surface of Defiance, anger and meltdowns - you don’t see the anxiety and sensitivity

8:00 Metaphor of the iceberg

8:48  #1 goal - help you the parents understand what’s happening

8:54  #2 goal - give you skill and strategies

9:01 Assumption:  She’s doing the best she can at the present time

9:58  Shifting perspective from FINDING FAULT—-- TO FINDING UNDERSTANDING

16:20 Being misunderstood leads to feeling invalidated and can lead to anger

16:56 When Anger helps you to understand your child what’s really going on

It's important to assess if “she can’t or she won’t” distinction when talking

18:40  Alexathymia - difficulty expressing feelings  

19:42 Metaphor of the flashlight vs turning a light on in the room  to help someone talk

21:20 Getting the quiet teen to talk

• Give her space and time
• Invite her to share when she’s ready
• Validate and give her a moment- this lets her know you are there
• Use statements rather than questions
• Warning: don’t add the BUT
• Using rating scales

29:20 Using Defiance, disobedience as a means to understanding what’s going on with your child

34:05 Some kids get overwhelmed by the demands of life and helping her managing expectations

36:50 A new perspective on defiant behaviors and why that’s parenting “gold”

39:43 Why regulating the underlying (primary) problem/emotion is more effective

41:25 Practice using PAUSE to regulate your emotions

Resources:  

Handout on Assessment Scale for Alexathymia 

Video of how to get someone to open up in a  conversation

Metaphor of the Iceberg

Leslie-ism: We don’t need to find fault, we need to find understanding

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury.  A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support to make this possible.

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

[00:00:00] AJ: When I was a kid, if I didn't follow what my parents said, there were repercussions for that. So in my brain I'm thinking, Why aren't you listening to me? I'm your parent. And so, it's like my fuse for that is short, and obviously it's not helping her. It's definitely not helping me.

[00:00:21] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: The tension and frustration between your past and your present is both your biggest challenge and your greatest opportunity for growth. How you were parented and how you are parenting is often in conflict, whether you realize it or not. This is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. I'm your host, Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and no, your child is not a monster; and neither are you. 

This week we meet Nicky and AJ, parents of 11-year-old Lily. They came to me because Lily has been struggling with big emotional reactions and social challenges, and her parents are concerned that if they don't intervene now, it will only get worse for Lily.

They have a lot of fears about her growing up. And like many parents, they need to work on their own emotional regulation, staying present, and not focus only on their future fears. In this episode, we talk about how our relationship with our own parents impacts our parenting and the frustration that can come with it. We also talk about getting the quiet preteen to talk, and managing expectations for yourself and your child. 

Now, as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention.

So let's begin.

[00:02:02] Leslie: Hi Nicky, and hi AJ. 

[00:02:07] Nicky: Hi Leslie. 

[00:02:08] AJ: Hi Leslie. How are you? 

[00:02:10] Leslie: Good. So fill me in a little bit on what's going on and what you're here for. 

[00:02:16] Nicky: So, our daughter, Lily, is 11 years old and we kind of are here because we need some help. As far as parenting, we seem to be running into, um, a lot of conflict on a regular basis. And she seems to be having difficulty with emotional regulation. And then we've experienced that we too, also seem to be having some difficulty with emotional regulation and really interacting together as a family. 

[00:02:45] Leslie: Okay. And you said she's—I'm sorry, I think I was unmindful a moment—13 or 15.

[00:02:50] Nicky: She's 11. 

[00:02:51] Leslie: Oh, she was neither. [Laughter] I was definitely unmindful for that moment. 

[00:02:55] Nicky: You're aging her. 

[00:02:58] AJ: Please don't do that. [Laughter]

[00:02:59] Leslie: “Don't do that”—that's interesting. Why don't you want me to age her? 

[00:03:03] AJ: I don't think we are ready to deal with the teenage years just yet. 

[00:03:08] Nicky: Definitely not. 

[00:03:10] AJ: The way the emotional regulation is not…we feel like, in a few years, when the, uh, puberty and all that, it's going to be that much more difficult. That's why we're trying to figure this out now. 

[00:03:23] Leslie: Okay. Well, I totally applaud you. I just really validate the idea that you are starting early. You're starting now to say, wait a minute, we want to get ahead of this. So, is there a fear of what's coming down the road, that is present for you?

[00:03:40] AJ: I feel there is. Just her interactions with her friends sometimes and how sensitive she is to what they say to her. Even now just when she has disagreements or stuff with her friends, she gets really upset about it. So, we are very concerned about her social interactions going forward.

[00:04:04] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:04:08] Nicky: Yes, I, a hundred percent, have a lot of fear of her entering puberty and having to deal with the difficulty of high school and interactions with peer groups. She's really struggling, right now at the age of 11, so I am very fearful. As AJ said, she is very sensitive and she seems to internalize a lot. So I do fear that, with everything, with kids and depression and things of that nature, I fear that we need to know how to navigate that better.

[00:04:47] Leslie: I'm glad you are looking at your fears. We actually want to name our fears, so we can get them out of the way. We don't want to parent based on our fears. I can't imagine being a parent without having those natural fears. And so what we want to do is name them so we can get them out of the way, so they're not running the show. Because that's not going to be helpful to you. 

I also want to say that you say moving into puberty or what's coming down the road, is there a possibility you are right in the middle of puberty? I don't know if most parents know that puberty begins sometimes as early as nine, as early as eight. That would be early, but 11 is not a very uncommon age for children to begin, girls to begin puberty. So have you questioned…maybe you are in it now. 

[00:05:35] Nicki: Yes. I mean, there is a chance. I don't really, it…we're not sure. We don't know that she is, but there's a chance that she could be starting it. Her behavior seems to be very similar to how it has been throughout elementary school. 

[00:05:45] Leslie: Okay. 

[00:05:47] Nicky: So, I'm not sure if we're in it yet. But I do have, like you said, a fear that it is going to get worse. 

[00:05:55] AJ: Yeah. Definitely. [Laughter] Oh, man.

[00:05:57] Leslie: So, what you just said is a very important factor, which is her behavior is very similar to what it's been throughout elementary school, et cetera, so that's really important. Give us some information about what it's been like for her growing up. 

[00:06:13] Nicky: I would say it has been very difficult ever since she was little—I am talking very little. Even as a toddler, we would get in the car and if things were going in a way that she, I guess, did not want them, she would throw a fit. She'd have temper tantrums—and I am talking all out, screaming for long periods of time, like an hour long. As she started to get older, it started to look different, but we realized she was still throwing tantrums.

So she would be on the floor, flailing at the age of like eight. And we would look around and just notice that other children weren't necessarily acting in the same manner. We started to realize that she had…it appeared that she was dealing with some anxiety. So if she was anxious about going somewhere, she'd be throwing a fit.

And at the time when we were in it, we had no idea. Looking back now we can kind of notice that. But it seems like a lot of times when we are in the phase or in the behavior or in the tantrum, we have a very hard time navigating it in the moment. 

[00:07:32] Leslie: Yes. Many parents take the defiance that they see or take the meltdowns that they see, and just say, my daughter or my child is just not handling things well, without understanding that, really, the underlying feeling is that they're dealing with sensitivity, anxiety, and we don't see that part of it. 

It's a little bit of the iceberg metaphor. One eighth of the iceberg is above the surface. Seven eighths of the iceberg is below the surface, and so if we want to understand what's going to help our child, we need to go below the surface. Because below the surface stuff is what does the damage. As we know from the story of the Titanic, it wasn't seeing the tip of the iceberg, but it's what they knew. They knew that there was a mountain below it, and that's what ripped the hull. So what we want to look for in children is what's going on below the surface.

And you can still use that. Even though we're past those earlier tantrums, we can still go below the surface when you see behavior that you want to help her regulate or you want to understand. Because, number one is we want to help you understand her. Number two is we want to give you skills and strategies to help you feel more competent and to make her feel more capable and competent herself. How's that sound?

[00:08:59] Nicky: Great. 

[00:09:00] AJ: Yes. Perfect. 

[00:09:01] Leslie: Okay. But I'm not making any promises. We're all going to do our best, including making an assumption that she's doing her best. Do you believe that, even when she's having these meltdowns, she's having difficulty, she's misperceiving her social interactions, do you understand and think about this? Do you understand that she actually is doing the best she can in the present moment? 

[00:09:30] Nicky: Now I feel that way—before I would not have. Now, after reading some other books and listening to more and more podcasts, I'm starting to more understand that this is not a defiance, or this is not her just trying to challenge us. Like, she really is struggling.

[00:9:50] Leslie: That's great. That's great that you have gained that knowledge so that you can begin to understand it from a different perspective. I can understand where you were coming from. What's happening here? Either I'm doing something wrong or she's doing something wrong; and we end up thinking that there's got to be someone that's doing something wrong and we look for…I mean, our society is a bit of a blame game.

We don't need to find fault. We need to find understanding. 

[00:10:18] Nicky: Yes. 

[00:10:19] AJ: definitely. 

[00:10:20] Leslie: The other thing that I want to point out is you said that she's having difficulty with emotional regulation and you two are having difficulty with emotional regulation. So if I help you, it's a two-for-one. It's a two-for-one special because whatever you learn, you can share with her, you can model. And I have not yet met a kid who doesn't love when their parents are working on their problems.

Kids just love that. So it's a two-for-one that if we work for a little bit—we're going to do both—but if we can work on helping you regulate your emotion, she's going to benefit: there's going to be a bonus for her. Okay. 

[00:11:07] Nicky: Makes a lot of sense. 

[00:11:08] AJ: Yes. 

[00:11:09] Leslie: Okay. So tell me about your emotional regulation. Is it in response to her frustrations, her difficulties? Where do you have difficulty regulating your emotions, and what do they look like? What do your meltdowns look like? 

[00:11:22] Nikki: AJ, would you like to start? 

[00:11:24] AJ: Sure. A lot of my emotional, like, problems come… With her, it's more defiance when we're trying to get her to do stuff she's not doing.

And then I get really angry. I may raise my voice and…And it all stems back, because when I was a kid, if I didn't follow what my parents said, there were repercussions for that. And so in my brain I'm thinking, Why aren't you listening to me? I'm your parent. And so it's like, my fuse for that’s short, and I get really upset with her.

Then I lash out and raise my voice. And obviously that's not helping her. It's definitely not helping me. So, but it's just like this emotional response I've had my whole life. So it's hard to break that, and I'm trying to. And I know it's a problem, and sometimes I can stop myself, but there are many times where I don't, and it's not healthy. 

[00:12:39] Leslie: Yes, I can understand that. Thank you for sharing that. It's quite an insight, there's good awareness there. And I first want to validate that we do learn from our own childhoods, that what you are doing and your anger—”How dare you. Why isn't she listening to me?”---you grew up with a rule: you listened to your parents, or else. I don't know what the “or else” was, but it doesn't sound like it was fun. 

[00:13:05] AJ: Nope. 

[00:13:06] Leslie: No. Okay. So it sounds like you're not doing exactly what your parents do. 

[00:13:12] AJ: No. 

[00:13:13] Leslie: But maybe the anger is part of you not knowing what else to do? 

[00:13:20] AJ: Yes. Obviously, it's not the same reaction as my parents because there was…I would never get physical with her, but, yeah, it's the anger, yelling, just like, I don't know. You're just like, errrr, like you're just really…Your emotions are just bubbling. I get all, like, I can feel it, my whole body that just like, it's just… 

[00:13:46] Leslie: …it's hot, intense, right? 

[00:13:48] AJ: Oh, man. It does. And a lot of it stems because she and I are very similar, so it's our personalities just clashing. And I was probably the same defiant child as she was. But we're trying to handle it better than our parents did.

[00:14:07] Leslie: Oh my goodness. You're saying such honest things. And I don't know if you can hear yourself, because if you two were very similar and your parents handled it very differently, which is: you better listen to what I say. And it sounds like there was physical punishment if you didn't listen. And you said, “But I was defiant as well at times.” Did they not understand you and did they not understand how sensitive you were and possibly even feeling anxiety while you were growing up? 

[00:14:41] AJ: Oh, I definitely don't believe that they understood. Although my mom, we came to realize recently, that Lily and my mother were very similar. We didn't realize this until pretty much after she passed. And they were two peas in a pod together because they understood each other.

So it got me thinking: How would my mom not understand me? But maybe because of the way my father was, whatever he said went and whatever happened happened and she wasn't going to intervene. Because times were different back when I was a kid as they are now. And we actually talk through things more than my parents ever did.

[00:15:24] Leslie: Wow. So you were very similar. You watched your mother interact with her granddaughter. So things were different. Like you said, your mother was a mother, parenting her own children. When you become a grandparent, you get to sit back, you get to…you have learned a lot. You've learned a tremendous amount.

And what her understanding was for her granddaughter, as you said, didn't feel like it was there for you. So lots of empathy, lots of compassion for the fact that you didn't get what you're seeing happened with your mother and your daughter. 

I want to, again, validate the fact that you are trying to do something different, which I am going to say: yes, great. And you still get this overwhelming sense of emotion because biologically, as a sensitive person, being sensitive, having anxiety, being more acutely aware of what's going on around you and perceiving things in a sensitive way, all of that adds up to: sometimes people don't get us. And if they don't get us, we can feel invalidated, which would lead to anger. If someone doesn't get me, I'm going to get angry. 

[00:16:46] AJ: Sounds familiar. Well, Lily and myself, because she gets angry, I think, when she feels very invalidated or not heard from us. 

[00:16:56] Leslie: All right. So the first skill I want to teach both of you is to be able to say that to her, see that anger and say, “Wait a minute, can we pause a second? Time out.” However you want to say it, and just say, “Are you trying to tell me that I don't get you, I'm not understanding you in this moment. Is it possible that your anger is saying, Mom, Dad, you don't understand me.” What do you think she would do if I, if you role play with me and I said that to you, what would she say?

[00:17:25] AJ: Hmm.

[00:17:25] Nicky: I think she would probably say, “You never listen. You never listen to me or you never understand me.” I think she would agree if we said, “Is part of your anger that we don't understand you?” I believe she would agree that we never understand her. 

[00:17:44] Leslie: So Nicky, let's keep going with that. What if I then said to her, “Sweetheart, what do I not understand, in this moment? I hear that you don't think I understand you a lot; but in this moment, what do I not understand? Help me understand more.” 

[00:17:59] Nicky: So that's where I am not sure how she would respond. Because I feel when we try to get more information, she has a hard time putting words to it or describing or explaining what's going on.

[00:18:16] Leslie: Okay. So we want to understand: Is that I can't, or I won't, talk to you. There's a difference between, I won't talk to you and I can't talk to you. There are some people who have difficulty putting into words how they're feeling. They can feel it, but they can't find the words to express it. It can be an expressive language disability. There's also something called alexathymia, which is just that—an inability to express feelings. Do you have any sense? 

[00:18:52] Nicky: I would say that I believe it would be that, because as you get into a conversation with her, or as you start to try and help her name things, she's willing to talk to you. But if you just blanket ask her, you know, “What's going on? Are you angry? Are you frustrated?” She has a hard time communicating it, in the moment. 

[00:19:16] Leslie: Okay, so let's go with the idea that she has that expressive difficulty. And it's a great distinction. She wants to talk but she can't express. So what I would recommend is that you give her some ideas. It sounds like you're already doing this a little bit.

I describe to people that questioning someone is sometimes like putting a flashlight in their eyes. If I said to you, “Why are you doing that? What's wrong with you? Why don't you tell me? Why…,” whatever; if I'm questioning the person, number one, there's a sense of defensiveness because I feel like you're interrogating me.

Number two, this pointing the flashlight in someone's eye—and you can even say that to her—makes it ineffective. You can't see when someone's pointing a flashlight in your eye. They're not giving you light. They need to point the flashlight in the room and then you could see what's going on.

So the making a statement is like putting light in the room without pointing the flashlight in her eyes. 

[00:20:25] Nicky: Okay. 

[00:20:26] Leslie: So why don't we work on a specific example? Where does she sort of have difficulty expressing? 

[00:20:32] AJ: When she has issues with her friends and we're like, “So what's going on,” her response all the time is, “I don't want to talk about it.” And then she hides her face. I think sometimes it's like an embarrassment thing or she just really doesn't know how to express it, maybe—I don't know. But it's always, “I don't want to talk about it.” 

And then that frustrates us because we're like, we want to help her talk through it, but she doesn't. And so it all gets bottled up, and then again comes the explosions later on because of all of her emotional buildup inside her. 

[00:21:12] Leslie: Okay. So let's slow down. Let's give you some ideas there. One is, give her time and space. So she might come to you and say, “I'm so upset because I think so-and-so is being mean to me.” At that point, say, “Hey, when you're ready, if you want to share more about that, we are here to listen.” So you're not actually going towards her, you are actually backing up, which gives her space and reduces any anxiety of, I have to talk, I have to talk, I have to talk. Have you ever felt that pressure?

[00:21:49] AJ: Yes. 

[00:21:49] Leslie: If I walk down the street with my husband and there's someone new and I try to introduce my husband, I get so anxious that I will go blank. But if I take a breath and I say, “This my husband Eric,” then my brain is working. The anxiety, which is in the back of her brain where emotions live, and the prefrontal cortex, which is where I want to express something or describe something, I need to give her time to get out of one part of her brain and into another.

So when you back up, you might be giving her a chance. And just say, “Hey, that sounds upsetting. I have a feeling you might want to share more about that. But I'm going to give you time. You tell me if you want to share more.”

[00:22:36] AJ: Sounds pretty rational. 

[00:22:38] Leslie: Sounds pretty rational, right? We don't do that because we so want to help that we jump in and we get going. 

[00:22:45] Nicky: Yeah.

[00:22:45] AJ: Definitely. 

[00:22:47] Leslie: Take a moment. It's sort of like, take a moment and put your seatbelt on. 

[00:22:50] AJ: As I was going to say, as parents we feel like we need to solve it now or else, it's-just-going-to-get-worse type of thing. 

[00:22:57] Leslie: And you know what? When you say, “Oh, it sounds like you had difficulty with your friend,” that moment of just giving her a moment and saying, “Well, that sounds like it was upsetting,” that's validation. That's active listening. That's letting her know you are there. That's sometimes enough to solve a problem, believe it or not.

So if you really need to solve a problem, I'm saying you've already done step one. You are letting her know that her feelings are valid. 

[00:23:28] AJ: We've tried to work on that before. Like, when there's an issue, we try to say stuff like, “We know.” Or when she's upset about something, it's okay to be upset, you just can't be disrespectful to Mom and Dad, or other people.

So we've been trying other things like that in the past, trying to validate her feelings so she doesn't feel that she's wrong or something's wrong. Like, it's okay to be upset. It's okay to be mad. So we've tried to work on that, but then sometimes we fall short, unfortunately.

[00:24:01] Leslie: And there's a lot of learning. This is all learning, learning, learning. So hang in there. Yes, you do that validation. I love it. I'm going to put a little warning in there to be careful not to add the but. 

[00:24:15] AJ: Yes, we have discussed that before. She's heard it on another podcast and the but is always the problem.

[00:24:22] AJ: And so you have to carefully word your responses. So yes, I remember we've actually discussed that before, trying to work on stuff to get right. 

[00:24:34] Leslie: Okay. Well it's not so much about getting it right, it's more about: you've done enough. You've actually done enough, when you said, “Wow, it sounds like you're having a hard time.” We don't need, “...but you can't be disrespectful.” That has power right there because you are being respectful to her. You're modeling respect when you say, “Hey, it sounds like that's hard.” And then we're giving her that space, which she might need in order to think about what's going on in her head in order to be able to express it.

[Music: In the forest by Music for Videos]

[00:25:25] Leslie: Going back to a few more strategies, sometimes people do better with a rating scale. So I might say to her, “Hey, this sounds like a problem. On a scale of one to ten, is it the worst problem that you've had with this friend? Is it a seven? Is it a four? Is it a little bit of a problem, like a three? You get to say, “What's going on.” Does that make sense? You get to ask her to rate it, and that gives her a way of describing it to you. 

[00:25:57] Nicky: Yes. That makes sense to me. 

[00:25:58] AJ: Yeah. 

[00:25:59] Leslie: Do you think she'd like that?

[00:26:00] Nicky: Maybe. She does like to rate things, so maybe. 

[00:26:05] Leslie: Great. And when we try to help, again, remember that just being there to listen is a big help. But if we are going to take it a step further to problem-solve or to help her express it more, A) we want to give her a moment and B) we can use that rating scale to say, “So you are at an eight right now. What do you think would help you get from an eight to a five? Or if getting from an eight to a five is impossible right now, can you get from an eight to a seven and a half?”

There's a lot of wiggle room and there's a lot that you're expressing because you're trying to teach her to regulate her emotion. And she might be able to tell you what's going on if she were at a five, but she can't get it out because she's too upset when she's at an eight. So the idea would be, can you move to a five?

And a lot of people, when they're feeling emotionally dysregulated, if I said this to you, AJ, you'd say, “No, I'm too upset.” I would say, “Okay, so let's not try to get to a five. Can you get to a seven?” 

[00:27:09] AJ:  Yes. 

[00:27:10] Leslie: And then you go, “No, I can't we get to a seven.” Okay. Can you get to seven and a half? And it gives permission for us to take very small steps, and that is regulating ourselves. If I'm going from an eight to a seven and a half, I'm regulating myself. 

[00:27:26] AJ: Makes sense. 

[00:27:27] Leslie: Makes sense? 

[00:27:28] AJ: Yes. 

[00:27:29] Leslie: Okay. So the last thing I want to say about her having difficulty expressing herself. And you said this a little bit, Nicky, was sometimes you offer her some ideas. I want to replace some of the questioning with some comments, with some statements. “Hey, I know that this friend judges your clothing. I know that this friend sometimes makes you feel like you're being excluded,.” And when you give her a statement, she's going to go, “No, she's not. She didn't judge me. She just didn't invite me to…” And all of a sudden, your giving her statements gives her something to connect to or to actually say, “No, it's not that. It's this.” 

[00:28:15] Nicky: Okay. 

[00:28:16] AJ: Sounds like a good plan.

[00:28:19] Leslie: So I almost wonder if the two of you could roleplay a conversation where she comes home, because you know her so well. AJ, do you want to be Lily? And come home with a problem. And Nicky, you try to try some of these skills right now. Should we try it?

[00:25:59] Nicky: Sure.

[Laughter]

[00:28:36] Leslie: Are you game? I know it's uncomfortable. Just try your best. 

[00:28:42] AJ: I'm trying to think of something. She doesn't really come right out and tell us what's wrong. Usually she just has a little bit of an attitude. Or you ask her to do something, it's an, “ughhhh!” lt's just an exasperated feeling. And then, and then it turns into just attitude and defiance. So it's not really clear until we… 

[00:29:08] Leslie: …get below the surface. 

[00:29:09] AJ: …until you get below the surface. So it's never really, as far as I've ever seen or known, it's never really clear. Sometimes we never know what's going on until, I don't know, later on, maybe.

[00:29:20] Leslie: That is not abnormal at all. My oldest son, they were little and we went out sledding. Now, my son was a very easy going kid, but he kept things in. He never had any violence. One day they were out sledding and he whacked his sister, and I'm like, Whoa, where did that come from? I've never seen him do that. 

Now, I could stay above the surface and I can punish him for hitting his sister. I can just deal with the behavior that I see. Remember the tip of the iceberg? What you see is this tip of the iceberg. And so I used that and I said, “Wow. Something's going on. I don't think you're feeling very good and something's going on. I wonder what else is going on besides you hitting your sister.” Besides her being frustrating, in that moment she might have been very frustrating to him, he was angry, and I get it. And I'm not condoning the behavior. I will say there's no hitting in this house, and I wonder what else is going on.

And so you see her being defiant. You could punish her, you could do all kinds of things to deal with the defiance. But what if you use it as the door to get into greater understanding so she feels more understood? So let's start there. And Nicky, why don't you use that defiance of, “Ughhh, I don't want to do it.”

That's where you can start, AJ, and let's see if we can get to what's going on underneath and just make up a scenario. You want to try that? 

[00:31:03] AJ: I just thought of something, I guess, maybe would happen if I'm not here. Kind of like after school when Lily gets home, Nicky's finishing up work and she's like, “Hey, we’ve got to go to the chiropractor.” And then she goes, “Ughhh, I just want to stay home and play with my friends,” or, “I just wanna be on the iPad. I don't want to do any…” Say there's nothing going on. Other days she has to get ready. It's: Come home, we’ve got to go do the chiropractor, we’ve got to go here, but I need you to get ready for your cheer activity. And then all this stuff hits her and she's like, “Ughh! I don't want to do that. I just want to go on the iPad.”

[00:31:50] Leslie: Okay. Nicky, your turn. Let's just jump in with that. 

[00:31:54] Nicky: “It sounds like you're angry or frustrated that you don't get to do what you thought you would be able to do after school today.”

[00:32:05] AJ: I don't know how she would react to that. 

[00:32:10] Leslie: Sometimes they have no comeback because it's so surprising. They just get quiet. Because it's actually like, Wow, Mom's, right. I don't want to. I am disappointed that I have to go do things I don't get my own chance. So sometimes they get quiet when they get validated. So that was good, Nicky. You just validated how she was feeling, but now you still need to get her in the car. 

[00:32:36] Nicky: Yeah. So what's next? I don't know. That's why I always run into a roadblock, when it's like I can validate her feelings. And she may hear that I'm validating her feelings; but we're still on a schedule and I still need to get her into the vehicle and she's still in an emotionally upset state and not willing to work with me or do anything. 

[00:33:02] Leslie: So it may not be that she's not willing, it may be that she's still trying to express something. 

[00:33:08] Nicky: Okay. 

[00:33:09] Leslie: So I'm going to go one step further and say, “I get that you are telling me, loud and clear, you don't want to go. And there's a possibility that something else is going on that's making you upset. I really want to know. Maybe when we're in the car you'll have a chance to tell me what's going on, what happened in school, if something happened with your friends.” And then I'd move away and give her some space and you keep going about getting ready.

What would happen if you keep going, you go out the door, you get your stuff ready, would she end up joining you? 

[00:33:47] Nicky: Not usually. Usually she would still be in the other room, just either under a blanket or in a corner or just kind of flailing around. 

[00:33:59] Leslie: Okay. So, does she get overwhelmed? And maybe you recognize this, AJ, from your own growing up. Does she get overwhelmed with having too much to do and too many demands? 

[00:34:09] Nicky: A hundred percent. 

[00:34:11] AJ: I think a lot of it is, she has in her brain plans of how she thinks it's going to go when she gets home. I'm going to go home and I'm going to play on the iPad, and then I'm going to do this, or I'm going to go play with a friend. And then when she walks in the door and it's not how it's going to go. I think that really sets her off. Because I have those same feelings about that, as well, when things don't go as you think they're going to go in your head. 

And now that I'm older, I can obviously deal with it and pivot a little better. But there are still times where I get really not happy about it, but I deal with it in my own way. But she obviously is eleven, so she definitely can't process the changing of plans. Or if she doesn't want to do it, but still has to. 

[00:35:13] Leslie: Okay. So, I would love to give her time to learn these skills. And at the same time, what you've learned, you can share with her. Again, one thing, Nicky, if you see her really acting like she's not moving or whatever: “Hey, having more demands on you or coming home and expecting to have the afternoon under your blanket. And then finding out that we're going out is a really hard transition to make. I get that you had other plans. I get that this was not what you expected…And what are you going to do to handle this, this new information?” 

I have to ask you: if she whines and complains as she's getting ready to go out, “I don't want to go. I don't want to go,” do you then tell her that she's being disrespectful or that she's whining or anything like that? Or do you keep moving forward? 

[00:36:15] Nicky: The majority of the time I try to keep moving forward because I am well aware. It's like, you can't even say anything. It won't go well. It'll just make matters worse and it is not worth that. 

[00:36:29] Leslie: Okay, so we're going to need to come back to this next time. But for today, the idea of giving her more opportunity to get to those feelings, to go below the surface, that her defiance is not always the desire to say no to you or be disobedient. It's a desire to communicate with you. 

So right now, I'd like you to think about and practice this week the validation and the idea that you are helping her understand you are putting to words, which she may not be able to put to words. And when a child feels like the parent understands them better than they understand themselves, it's magic.

It really makes a child feel the opposite of, my parents don't get me, to, wow, Mom knows exactly what's going on, or, Dad knows exactly what's going on. You put to words what they're feeling. They're overwhelmed, there's a lot of demands. 

Together. I want you to make a list. I want you two to sit down—I’m giving you a homework assignment—sit down and make a list of the things that are going on below the surface for her. She gets overwhelmed. Too many demands. I'm going to start your list. Getting overwhelmed. Too many demands, not knowing how to express herself. And then keep going. What else?

There's nothing in it for her, like going to the chiropractor. What's in it for her? So think about: what is it that she's saying no to? It's not to say no to be a bad child. She's not saying no to be defiant, she's saying no to communicate something, but she doesn't know how to communicate that other thing.

[00:38:17] Nicky: Okay. 

[00:38:18] Leslie: Like I said, my son, when he hit his—I may not have finished that story—but when my son hit his sister sledding that day, we got home and we talked about it, and it was the first time that he expressed that he had been getting teased at school and it was really upsetting. He cried and cried and cried, and I knew nothing about that. Not because I'm a bad parent, not because his teacher's a bad teacher, not because he's a bad kid, but because he didn't have a way to express that. And so he did express it in a way, the best way he knew how at the moment, to hit his sister. And so I want to say yes, it's not okay and we can teach you other ways. 

But you know what? He was doing the best he could, in that moment. And that's how we want to look at Lily. She's doing the best she can, and let's help her. And she's got a long time, she's got plenty of time to work on these skills. 

That gets us back to the fear. I don't want you to be afraid of her teenage years, her adult life. Have confidence. It’s okay. You are showing up. I mean, I really appreciate that you're here today for yourselves and for her—there's the twofer—and that you are going to learn things for yourself. And when you get angry, AJ, you can practice going back and saying, what am I angry about? What's below the surface here? Why is my anger…what's getting in the way here? And you can do the same thing that I'm asking you to do with her so you both can learn to regulate. Because it's much easier to regulate the underlying problem…it's not much easier, it's just more effective. I don't think it's easier, I think it's more effective.

[00:40:02] Nicky: Yes. 

[00:40:02] AJ: Yeah. I feel like, because we're so similar and I have the same emotions that she does, and I get caught up in my almost acting like the way my dad did when I was young. But in actuality, I should be trying to understand her since we're so similar. But the other things just bubble over and I really want to be able to help her get through it because I should know how she's feeling. Because I've had the same feelings and insecurities and all that stuff as a kid. And it is just so hard to not see through when I'm seeing red, when the disrespect thing happens, or my perception of disrespect, I should say. Because I want her to be more comfortable with herself and her emotions. 

And I didn't have anybody to teach me that. And I don't want her to end up like me later in life, acting like me to her children. And getting angry at stuff I shouldn't be getting angry about with her and recognizing her emotions. Because it's so frustrating not being able to help her. 

[00:41:22] Leslie: So, you're beating yourself up a little bit: I should. I should, I should. Here's what I'm going to also give you a homework assignment: Pause. Put a few big signs, and not post-it notes—they're too little. Put a nice big sign, decorate it. Maybe she can help you decorate. Just put a few signs up in your bathroom, in the kitchen, in your car, and just write: Pause. And then every three days move those signs around so you don't start to habituate to them, and then you don't see the sign anymore and you don't listen. Put Pause up. Because when you have that response, I just want to give yourself a chance to breathe.

What I said earlier is when she's in that emotional state and it's in the back of her mind, she can't find the words and you can't find the way to regulate if you're in your emotion mind. So the Pause is a little bit of a way to get you to what we call wise mind, to bring in your rational mind so you can start to think about it.

I want to keep it simple by saying, add pauses to your day. There's no emergency—if there was, then do what you need to do if it's a 9-1-1. But it's not right now. These are not 9-1-1 situations. These are upsetting emotional reactions and we just want to add pauses. So write down some examples of when you used the Pause and tell me if there was any difference.

[00:42:54] Nicky: Okay.

[00:42:55] AJ: Alright. 

[00:42:56] Leslie: Okay. Pause to give her a moment to think. Pause to give you a moment to think. Pause to make a different choice. That's what you're looking for. 

[00:43:06] AJ: Makes sense. 

[00:43:07] Nicky: That sounds good. 

[00:43:08] AJ: Sounds good. 

[00:43:09] Leslie: Okay. Thank you so much for today. 

[00:43:11] AJ: Thanks. 

[00:42:55] Nicky: Thank you. You too.

[Music: Stand in the Forest by Folk Acoustic]

[00:43:20] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: I want to repeat what AJ just said at the end. He said, trying to understand his daughter so that he can respond differently than his parents did to him. Wow. That's amazing. He's trying to break that cycle so that he can do something different and his daughter will feel different. But in this episode, we spent a lot of time talking about the defiance and what it means. And it's really important to take an approach that, we say, let’s go below the surface of what defiance is trying to communicate. 

Defiance and anger can be so frustrating for parents, but when we try to understand it—which is what this podcast is all about—when we try to understand what our child is trying to communicate through their behavior, through that anger, through that defiance, through the I won't do this, we can begin to see who our child is. We may see a lot of sensitivity, their anxiety, and that's what was happening in this episode.

So, can you learn to respond to your child more intentionally, more thoughtfully through understanding what is going on below the surface? Because when you do that, they will feel like you understand them better than they understand themselves. And you will raise them to be an expert on who they are.

And the bonus is that you actually will reduce your fears of their future. So this week, think about the idea: We don't need to find fault, we need to find understanding. 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

And if you want to learn more about this topic of defiance, I just did a webinar for this great organization called N.E.A.B.P.D. That's the National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder. And the title of my webinar was Defiance, Disrespect and Disobedience. What Is It And What To Do About It? And they have this resource and many other great webinars for free on their website. So check it out at neabpd.org or just go to my show notes for links.

And join us next week, when we talk about ending the cycle of abuse and generational trauma and how incredibly emotional that is for Nicky and AJ. 

Subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts, and please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildmonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining me.

Transcribed by Eric Rubury