Nicky & AJ Part 3 of 4: When Shame Gets In The Way

We take you “behind the scenes” of what happened before the session officially started.  This episode with Nicky and AJ begins with a communication breakdown.  We all struggle at times communicating with our kids, our partners or other family members. You will learn what happens when shame is in the drivers seat of your life and when shame runs in the family like with AJ and their 11 year old daughter, Lily.  The episode also emphasizes the importance of vulnerability for personal growth and effective parenting. Leslie introduces the Dialectic Behavior Skill called DEAR MAN and puts it into practice.  

Time Stamps

3:50 How to talk without shaming and blaming or without ignoring the problem

8:02 and 26:05 Talking about trauma is very difficult and can be very anxiety provoking

11:06 Description of the DBT DEARMAN skill

• Describe, Express, Ask for what you want, Reinforce it for the other person, Maintain focus, Appear confident, Negotiate when needed

16:10 Example of using the DEAR MAN

23:32 and 40:40 Timing is very important when trying to have a conversation

24:30 People who feel invalidated react with anger, shutting down or start defending themselves 

27:05 Remember to learn from “misbehavior” - “what can I do differently next time?”

32:10 Shame is an emotion that makes us feel like “a bad person” vs guilt is a justified emotion when our behavior goes against our values

32:06 and 33:00 Dialectic Behavior Therapy’s Opposite Action 

• Go opposite to the urge of the emotion 
• The urge associated with shame is to hide
• Go opposite to shame when it is not justified
• Go all the way

35:27 Example of using Opposite Action Skill

38:26 AJ’s aha moment that both he and his daughter can feel attacked when someone wants you to do something 

43:58 Practice being vulnerable

Leslie-ism: Give yourself permission to be vulnerable.

Resources:  

Dialectic Behavior Therapy DEARMAN Skill by DBT.Tools

Dialectic Behavior Therapy Opposite Action Skill by DBT.Tools

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury.  A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support to make this possible.

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

[00:00:00] Nicky: I don't want you to feel like you're only doing it for me. I want you to do it for yourself and for our family. 

[00:00:15] AJ: I want that, too. Just any sort of therapy just makes me very, very apprehensive. And I get all anxious inside thinking about it.

[00:00:30] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: There are a lot of reasons why people put off or avoid therapy altogether. Cost is a factor. Availability. And in this case, fear and shame. Even though therapy has become more mainstream, there is still a stigma around getting help; and many people postpone, delay, deny, or just avoid going altogether. 

This is, Is My Child A Monster? a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. I’m your host, Leslie Cohen-Rubury. And no, your child is not a monster; and neither are you. 

Today's episode is the first half of my final session with Nicky and AJ. After last week's session, I sent AJ an email with a list of trauma resources and therapists. This session starts off with what I thought would be an aside about that email, but turned into a rich discussion about shame, vulnerability, and communication. And we ended up with so much material that we split this session in two parts.

Today I want to challenge people to listen and learn the Dialectic Behavior Therapy communication skill we talk about in this episode. Knowing how to have a hard conversation effectively with your co-parent is an essential part of parenting. 

As a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And although I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. 

So let's begin.

[00:02:25] Leslie: Before we get started, is there anything you want to share with me?

[00:02:28] Nicky: I don't, but do you want to address, just apologize for not responding to the email? 

[00:02:36] AJ: Yes, I'm sorry about that. I don't know. I guess maybe it was a little more of nerves, not knowing what to do. I don't know. Never had to…Never was a thing before, so I guess maybe I'm just nervous about it, so.

[00:02:50] Leslie: Okay. That's actually a great place for us to start. That's the hard part about being a parent is that we've got to do the work ourselves. And it's not easy. It's not easy for us to do the work because we're nervous. We don't know what it's about. It seems scary. And so we're no different than kids. We don't always do what we are told to do. We don't want to do the right thing, even though we know I should be returning that email or something like that. It was a big, insurmountable task for you—it felt like a big insurmountable task. But on the other hand, Nicky, for you it was, He's not doing something right.

He should be—remember last time we ended with expectations—he should be doing something that he's not doing. Is that what you felt? And how do you discuss that without shaming him with the should? 

[00:03:49] Nicky: Yes, normally I would have been on him and asked him and followed up. And I just felt like, in this instance, he has to come to this a little more organically when he's ready. But we did have a conversation about it last night just regarding the fact that he did not respond at all to the email, to even say, “I need more time with this,” or, “I'm not ready,” or whatever the case may be. I wish he would have responded in some manner, even if it wasn't to reach out for more help.

[00:04:28] Leslie: Right, right. And you were so concerned in our last session about not shaming your daughter, not traumatizing her with invalidation. We want to practice that everywhere. People think, Well then I won't say anything. That's his issue. He should be doing it. I'm not going to say anything. So they do nothing. So they either do the shaming side of it or they do the nothing side of it. And the truth is—and this is where the practice is really good—How do I talk to you, my husband? How do I talk to you and share my feelings without necessarily shaming you or ignoring the problem?

Because the problem exists. And there can be many problems: following through, just responding to Leslie, all those things. And so I can actually teach you a skill right now that would be so useful for the two of you, for your daughter and things like that. Nicky, do you want to share how you felt about that email and the shoulds in your head, or what was going on for you?

[00:05:51] Nicky: So, I felt good about the email because you followed up with us and you gave AJ some information, as far as some path forward. So for me it felt, Oh good, this is going to help give him some direction. And you even gave your phone number for him to reach out with any questions. So I felt like he should have responded in some manner, whether it be a text, a phone call, just a response to the email in any manner, either asking more information about moving forward or clarification if he was confused.

But I saw him not responding in any manner. And when I asked, “Have you responded? “He would just say, no. So I was trying to give him space and not push it. But then last night, I brought up the conversation to kind of just implore more as to where he was and what he was thinking.

[00:06:54] Leslie: So this is an important topic, whether it's our child or our partner, but there's a lot of shame.

[00:07:03] AJ: Yes. 

[00:07:03] Leslie: And I bet you're going to talk about the shame when you talk about this email. 

[00:07:08] AJ: Very much so. I guess I didn't…part of me...it obviously…therapy and stuff like that was never something growing up. You know, you hear about it, and even, even as great of an idea as it sounds, it still makes me nervous, uh, apprehensive. Maybe you don't want to be told that something's wrong with you or you don't want to acknowledge it. I don't know. It's like, um…in the show, Ted Lasso, his therapist, said the truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off or make you mad. And maybe I'm not ready, maybe I wasn't ready for that.

I don't know. I know in my heart I need to do something about it, but it's just like, you're very, very nervous about it, I guess you could say. 

[00:08:02] Leslie: Yes. Okay, so we have two perspectives, and then there's the third perspective, which is my perspective. I know our last session was intense, especially when we're talking about treating trauma. I just need to let you both know: Nobody feels like that's an invitation to a party. Nobody says, “Sign me up. I want to do that.” It has people digging in their heels, feeling very frightened, feeling very cautious, avoiding. No matter how much they want to heal—no matter how much they want to heal—that is a normal response when we talk about trauma.

So my perspective…Nicky, do you remember what my first question was when we opened up our Zoom? I said, “Is AJ joining us today?” Because from my perspective, it would not have been a surprise if possibly you were sick or you had something else to do. It is so difficult to recover from a discussion about trauma that I often get avoidance.

So I want to say I am absolutely amazed that you brought yourself to this session, AJ, because you didn't know if we were going to talk about it, not talk about it. But you're, like, wait a minute, this is a lot for me. So just getting to the session is your response to the email. 

So here's the part that I think will be helpful for you both, which is: remember the number one thing we're trying to do here when we're trying to understand Lily and understand her behavior…We talked a lot about that—not getting in the shower, what's wrong with her, or not talking, what's wrong with her? And in this case it's: what's wrong with AJ? He didn't respond to Leslie. All he had to do was respond, thank you. He didn't even do that. 

So on one hand, Nicky, you're sensitive to the fact that you don't want to tell him what to do and you don't want to shame him and invalidate. But then on the other hand, if you do nothing, that's not really the answer we're looking for because you do want to share how you're feeling and you do want to stay connected. So the idea, and we did this with the example with Lily, is to be able to understand the person's behavior and stay connected so that possibly there will be a change in their behavior.

So we have to balance the idea of doing something about the behavior that's problematic—usually in this case, it's avoidance—and not doing anything. So doing something or not doing anything. 

And there's a skill that's really helpful in figuring out How do I express myself? This is a DBT skill called DEAR MAN. Now, the funny thing is, last time we talked about the GIVE skill. The GIVE skill is part of the communication skills where we're trying to tend to the relationship—we're gonna have an easy manner. The DEAR MAN part…it's just a fun acronym that Marsha Linehan made up, and I'll go through those letters just like I did with the GIVE skills, which is about having an easy manner, validating and all that, which is also really important in every communication.

But DEAR MAN is when you’re trying to get an objective met, in this case, your objective may be to get AJ to respond. Your objective may be to let him know how you're feeling that he didn't respond. But it allows you to do something, so you're not doing nothing, even though sometimes nothing is okay.

So in this case, the D is: Describe the situation. Just with the facts, the who, what, when, and where. So here's how I would do the D. Leslie sent an email with information about treatment and ideas, and she sent that on whatever day that was…She sent that last week. That's the Describe. 

The E is: Express your feelings. This is so often forgotten. It's just we go right into, You should respond, you should do that. How would you express yourself? Well, I'm concerned that Leslie may feel—I don't know what you are thinking, Nicky—but may feel insulted, rejected, that you don't appreciate, I don't know, whatever you were thinking. But what is it you are feeling?

So how would you answer that part? How would you express your feelings in that moment? 

[00:13:07] Nicky: So, I would say my biggest feelings are actually, I'm a little scared. I feel like with that email you were reaching out, you were giving him that first stepping stone to move forward, and I'm scared that if he doesn't take it, we stand still and don't move forward.

[00:13:24] Leslie: Okay. So that's exactly what you would say. “Leslie sent an email. I'm feeling scared that if you don't respond, then we won't be moving forward.” That's an honest feeling—that's an honest feeling. Then you go to A, which is: Assert yourself or make the request, Ask for something. In this case, the ask can be, “I just want to have you hear how I'm feeling.” The ask may be, “Is there anything I can do to help you take the next step?” What do you think the ask would be in this case?  

[00:14:07] Nicky: I think in this case, the ask would be if there was anything that I could do to help him move forward, like if he was confused about what was written or needed help in that manner.

[00:14:21] Leslie: Okay. And then the R for the DEAR, the R is: Reinforce it for the other person. So in this case, it's: why would AJ want to do what you're asking him to do? What's in it for him? Remember, when we ask someone to do something, they want to be engaged. They want to have some reason why they want to do it. Why would AJ want to do this for you, or do this for himself, or do this for the family?

[00:14:53] Nicky: From my perspective, he would want to do it for himself and for the family, because right now where we're at is not calm and peaceful and enjoyable. It's constant tension and it doesn't feel good. 

[00:15:09] Leslie: Okay, so say that a little bit shorter. Say that in a way that will make AJ want to do this. Invite him to wanting to do this. 

[00:15:22] Nicky: I think this'll give you an opportunity to be more peaceful and happy and content at home and with the family. 

[00:15:31] Leslie: Okay, so that's the DEAR part. MAN is more about how you do it. It's staying Mindful, staying focused on what you're trying to accomplish. The A is: appear confident, so if you are really insecure or really nervous about saying this, he's going to feel that.

So you want to appear confident. And then N is: actually sometimes we need to Negotiate. So sometimes we need to give something in order to get something. 

Alright, we're going to try it for real. And AJ, you are going to respond to Nicky after she says it. And respond completely honestly—if you get angry, get angry, just really respond honestly.

So do your best, Nicky, to do it from the D to the R. 

[00:16:19] Nicky: AJ, I just wanted to talk to you a little bit. Leslie sent an email last week and I just wanted to know if you read it and how you're feeling. 

[00:16:30] AJ: I looked at it, I don't know what to make of it. I don't know how to proceed. I am nervous about doing anything like this and, I don't know, I maybe just don't want to feel like everything I've done wrong is going to be pointed out to me and make me feel bad about myself. 

[00:17:03] Nicky: Yes, I understand that. I mean, it's pretty scary. I'm just a little concerned that she reached out to you and gave you some ideas about a path forward. And I'm just concerned and scared that if you don't take this opportunity, we just stay where we're at and don't move forward. 

[00:17:26] AJ: I know. And part of that is what I think about, as well, is not changing and affecting, obviously, our relationship and my relationship with Lily, which is why I should do this to better understand her, but I also need to better understand myself.

But it's just also, uh, I don't know, scary to me. I don't know. 

[00:17:54] Nicky: Do you need any help, like maybe understanding what she wrote or doing further research into what your options are or where to find more help around us? 

[00:18:08] AJ: I mean, I guess so. Unfortunately, you know how my motivation is. And sometimes helping myself is the problem, because I get stuck. 

[00:18:23] Nicky: Yes. I want to be here to help you, but I don't want to feel like I'm nagging you about it. I don't want you to feel like you're only doing it for me. I want you to do it for yourself and for our family, and for Lily, if that makes sense.

[00:18:44] AJ: It does make sense and I want that, too. I guess any sort of therapy just makes me very, very apprehensive and I get all anxious inside thinking about it. 

[00:19:00] Nicky: Yeah. I mean, my concern is I understand the anxiousness and the scary because it's an unknown. It's just…I'm just thinking, you know, it's already bad. So what if it could be…what's the worst that can happen? 

[00:19:19] AJ: I know. And I know what you're talking about the anger. And sometimes I do feel it and then I know it's coming. And sometimes I still can't stop it. And I guess that's one of the reasons why I need to do something about it. But it's, like I said, it really makes me nervous. I don't know why. It probably shouldn't, but it just does. 

[00:19:47] Nicky: Well, I'm here to help you. If you need help in any part of this, I am more than willing to help you work through it or do it with you. 

[00:20:01] AJ: I appreciate that. I definitely want to get some help dealing with stuff, especially around this time of the year. The other day I was in my truck driving and just something triggered just sadness about my mom and I was just very, very unhappy. And I was almost tearing up thinking about stuff.

And then it's funny how, like, a stoplight or something while I'm driving just snaps you out of it, because you have to pay attention to something else. So that was kind of weird, but…

[00:20:46] Leslie: So, thank you both for giving that an experiment. Nicky, did you have a new way of interacting? And A,J did that feel different, the way Nicky interacted? 

[00:20:58] Nicky: I think it felt a little bit different because it was me also trying to reinforce his feelings. Because I think a lot of times when we have conversations, it turns into…more recently, I've realized that a lot of the responses are because AJ feels attacked. 

[00:21:20] Leslie: Yes. 

[00:21:20] Nicky: Or he feels like I am trying to say all the things that he's doing wrong; and really I'm just trying to express that I'm scared of how I'm feeling. But that's not how it's coming across.

[00:21:35] Leslie: So that E in DEAR MAN is such an important skill to just say, “I want to share how I'm feeling.” It softens the conversation. It's not easy. You didn't say anything easy about it. That was upsetting to hear you say you think we're going to get stuck. And it's easier to take, than “You should be doing this. You should be doing that.” So it's not that it's easier, but it's more effective to help you get somewhere. 

Anything else you want to say about trying that DEAR MAN? 

[00:22:12] Nicky: Not offhand, other than at the end, I still feel like we didn't necessarily come up with a plan or resolution, which is hard for me. But again, I can't make somebody do anything. 

[00:22:28] Leslie: Okay. And that we're going to come back to, I'm going to answer that in a moment of what's the next step. But you can't build a house without, well, you could build a house with the foundation. It's not going to work very well if you build a house without a foundation. This is the foundation of communication. Problem solving is the next step, which is: how do we solve the problem? But if we don't have a foundation of understanding and connection, that house is not going to get built very solidly. 

So AJ, how did that feel this time to have the conversation with Nicky?

[00:23:06] AJ: Felt good. Obviously, discussing it that way, the feeling of being attacked definitely wasn't there. It was more gentle, I guess you could say, maybe. And sometimes the discussions happen at different stages of the day where maybe my emotions and attitude are in a different place. So… 

[00:23:31] Leslie: Absolutely.

[00:23:32] AJ: Obviously, this morning is much easier because we're home. It's the weekend, there's no getting up doing work, things like trying-to-run-out-the-door type-of-deal. So, we're both here and we're both present—it's a lot easier discussion. And it's not after a long work day. And I know Nicky means well on everything. And she's expressed to me in the past that she's afraid that it's just going to come to a head one day and that it's going to fracture everything. And obviously I do not want that, considering her and Lily are my two most important people in my life. So it's like, I don't know. It just gives me anxiety to think about it, I don't know. 

[00:24:25] Leslie: Absolutely. So I'm going to pause you there, but you said something that's very important, that's good information for parents as well, whenever you're talking to your child. You said, “I didn't react with anger this time,” or something like that, because you didn't feel attacked. When anybody feels attacked or invalidated—you don't even have to be loud and attacked—if anybody feels invalidated, for whatever reason, misunderstood or shamed or whatever they're feeling, their reaction is usually quite evident. They get angry, they shut down, they reverse the attack: “Well, you did this,” or whatever. So it's a built-in system to say: Is my communication working? If at the end of the communication you feel like you understand each other better, that's a win-win situation. 

If someone walks away, pissed off, misunderstood, they're angry, they're sulking, they're pouting, they're withdrawn, whatever it is, you know: “Oh, that didn't work.” So, this is what we go back to. We don't have to do a DEAR MAN when I'm just asking you to pick up milk at the grocery store; but I might wanna do a DEAR MAN when I'm asking you why you didn't respond to Leslie's email or why Lily's not going in the shower, or she's not talking about her friend situation. That's when I might use my DEAR MAN and my GIVE skills, my GIVE skills being the skills that help me validate how the other person is feeling.

[00:26:05] Leslie: So in this case, I want to say that you both did a great job in that role play, in that actual conversation. And now I'd like to respond, AJ, to the anxiety that you are feeling. As I already said, it is so common to respond with anxiety with, I don't want to do this, or This is way too scary.

[00:26:31] Leslie: And remember, our children feel that way also, when it's like, Wait a minute, you're just going in the shower, or you're just calling your friend, or you're just calling for pizza. We don't understand how hard some things may be for them. 

Like I said, I would've bet my house on the fact that it was going to be really hard for you to follow up. That's not easy. It seems scary. So, your response is quite understandable from my perspective, because I have experience talking to people about that. What I see from this behavior is it's communicating something to me. If I don't get a response by email, I say to myself—instead of personalizing and saying, Wow, that was rude. Why didn't he respond to me? What's wrong with him?---I say, Wow, I bet that was too much information. I want to check in with him to find out if that was too big of a step. Here I am handing you on a plate, all these trauma treatments, and it's like, Why would you hand me a trauma treatment? I don't think I'm even ready for a gentle therapy session rather than a trauma treatment session.

And I thought about that throughout the last few weeks since our last session. I was like, Wait a minute, I need to go back and explain: I think we need a smaller step. 

[00:27:56] AJ: Yes, it was a lot because I didn't know what to do with it. It it was just kind of like zero to sixty, so to speak. And it was just like, whoa. 

[00:28:10] Nicky: I also think the word trauma, I think, um, for aj. Yeah, it doesn't, doesn't, he doesn't really think of his experience as trauma. 

[00:28:21] AJ: That's true. 

[00:28:22] Leslie: And it may not be. I did not assess, fully assess, whether you have PTSD, whether that felt traumatizing to you. Not all difficult, bad situations are traumatizing. They're unfortunate, they're difficult. They could even be traumatic, but you may not develop PTSD. So, yes, let's go back to the idea that I took a step that was way too big. And nobody did anything wrong. You could say, “Oh, Leslie, you're the one who did something wrong.” I certainly took a step that was too big and I can learn from it.

This is the parenting moment. This is the relational moment where I get to come back and say, “Hey, AJ, you must have had a very good reason for not responding to my email.” And you would've said, “It made me freeze. I got scared. I didn't know what to do. I'm afraid.” And I would've said, “I agree. I think I asked you to take a step that was way, way too big. Your not responding makes sense to me.

[Music: Life Goes On by Music for Video]

[00:29:39] Leslie: Now, when you are parenting a child. I still want my child to learn, maybe to respond to an email. So I might say, “I get that. I totally get why my email was too much too fast too soon. Is there any way you could say that to me in an email?” Or was it that you didn't even know how to say that to me, AJ? 

[00:30:09] AJ: It was probably, I wouldn't know what to say. Probably, definitely, was a bit shameful about it, I guess, because of my being apprehensive towards it—it was all of that. I just didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to respond. Then it comes to, like, she said all this stuff and I didn't do anything.

I feel bad. I didn't know what to,...it's just a range of emotions of confusion and not knowing what to do, and it just shook me a little bit, I guess. 

[00:30:49] Leslie: Yes. And so as you say that, and my question may have been, “Is there a way for you to have told me that,” it sounds like you didn't know how to get that from inside of you to outside and write it down. And you even said it felt like there was a lot of shame. 

[00:31:11] AJ: Yeah. 

[00:31:12] Leslie: Is this what we understand about Lily as well? That she shuts down, possibly because she doesn't…remember the first session we said she may not know how to express herself when she shuts down?

[00:31:25] AJ, Nicky: Yes. 

[00:31:25] Leslie: It may be shame. “I don't know how to say it. I feel it.” And she even says, “Oh, I feel it.” And so helping you express something that feels like shame…shame says: I'm a bad person. The reason why you may not want to go further with therapy or trauma treatment, any of it, is because you might feel a lot of shame. Your foundation may be shame, whereas that makes it very hard to actually step up and do anything.

So, we have another skill called Opposite Action. Opposite Action in Dialectic Behavior Therapy, it is when we identify an emotion—in this case, shame—and then we look and we say, is shame justified? So shame is the emotion where you feel like you're a bad person. Is it justified? Are you a bad person?

[00:32:34] AJ: I don't think I'm a bad person. 

[00:32:36] Leslie: Excellent. Yeah, I'm with you on that one. [Laughter] Oh my goodness, you're sitting here and doing this hard, hard work. You want to do better for your child. No, I don't see a bad person. I see someone who's behaving in ways that don't make you happy, but I don't see a bad person.

And that's the difference between guilt. Guilt might be justified for yelling at your daughter,and getting angry at times. But shame is a different emotion. So when shame shows up and it's not justified, we use this skill, Opposite Action. And Opposite Action says, “I'm going to go opposite to the urge.”

Shame makes me want to hide. I want to hide, I don't want to come out, I don't want to be public about this, I am too shameful. So I'm going to hide. And not answering an email or not answering your mom and dad—those are shameful behaviors. Going opposite to that would be: What would you need to do if you were going opposite to your shame, AJ?

[00:33:43] AJ: I guess be more purposeful in what I'm doing, answering people back, trying to improve myself better. 

[00:33:57] Leslie: Okay. Forget the, trying-to-improve-yourself-better. It's a big deal to say, I'm going to answer this email. 

[00:34:03] AJ: Yeah. 

[00:34:04] Leslie: And my favorite is, I'm answering this email and I don't know what to say. It is such a freeing moment to say, “I don't know what to say to your email. Thank you for sending it.” And it's just giving yourself permission. But doing that is monumental for going opposite to shame. 

[00:34:26] AJ: Yes. 

[00:34:27] Leslie: Okay. And we practice it by going all the way. So my urge is to hide. I'm going to find a way to not hide. This is the skill. And what would that be? Would that be turning to Nicky and saying, “Nicky…” Maybe you couldn't email me. But maybe you could say to Nicky, “Hey Nicky, I don't know how to respond to Leslie.” So maybe your opposite action to shame is going to someone closer to you rather than going straight to the email.

[00:34:59] AJ: Yeah. 

[00:34:59] Leslie: And just trying to do that, and doing it over and over again. The more you practice Opposite Action to shame, the easier it gets. But it's not easy. 

[00:35:11] AJ: Just hearing you talk about it, I'm like, Ooh. 

[00:35:17] Leslie: Right. You need the support to figure out: how do I do that? Let me ask you a little tangential question, which is helping me assess. Do you get nervous coming to these sessions with me? 

[00:35:32] AJ: I was nervous at the beginning about not knowing what to expect, not knowing if I'm just going to sit here and be like, I don't know what to say. I know it's in my brain, we need to help Lily. And then I know it meant a lot to Nicky, when I didn't go, “Really? What are we doing this for?” I thought it was a great idea. I was nervous, but I know it meant a lot. I'm pretty sure it meant a lot to her that I didn't push back against it and was like, “I'm not doing this,” because I have done that with stuff in the past. 

[00:36:12] Leslie: Nicky, do you want to respond before I jump in?

[00:36:16] Nicky: I agree. I was actually very surprised that he was just like, “Okay.” And I was like, Sweet. [Laughter]

[00:36:22] Leslie: Okay. So I want to point out that you already did Opposite Action to anxiety. You were nervous about doing our first session. You were nervous about showing up and having this conversation together, and you did it anyway. So you must have been dialectic in your thinking. I'm nervous and I'm going to give it a try. I'm nervous and I want to do this for my family. You had a motivation. You did have the nervousness. You didn't get rid of the nervousness—you showed up. Now, that nervousness sounds like it has changed since the first intake to our first meeting, our second meeting and our third meeting; that you've gone opposite to that emotion. 

[00:37:15] AJ: Definitely. 

[00:37:16] Leslie: And that is fantastic. You are here doing it and you learned that maybe not knowing what to say is not a problem. 

[00:37:28] AJ: Yeah, definitely not for me anyway because I'll figure it out somehow. 

[00:37:33] Leslie: And who says we need to know all the answers? I could be really, really upset and shameful that I pushed you and sent that email and didn't acknowledge that you might be nervous about doing this. I'm like, Oh, that's good information. I'd love to do that next time when I send an email. I am going to remember to validate the other person who I'm writing to when I give them information. What a great thing for me to learn. 

And learning is not shameful because you are not pointing and saying, “You are a problem, Leslie, you're a problem. Leslie, you're a problem.” You know what? I did something I learned from. I would've loved to have done it in the past. I didn't. So now I get to do it in the future. That's how we grow. 

Any other questions for me? 

[00:38:26] AJ: Well, I did want to say one thing You were talking before about when I would feel attacked, and attacked back. It almost like hit me like a ton of bricks that, when we have conversations with Lily, same thing.

[00:38:40] Leslie: Same thing. 

[00:38:42] AJ: Same thing. We're telling her things or we're trying to explain stuff and she feels attacked. And then she's like, “Well, you did the same thing,” or, “You did that.” And when you said that, it's just like, Oh my god, that's a lot of the conversations that we have with her, trying to get points across or help her with things.

That really just got me. That's totally the conversations we have with Lily about stuff. So now it's, okay, so maybe we have to go about it in a gentler way. 

[00:39:18] Leslie: So, to go about it differently, do the DEAR MAN, use your GIFT skills. And it takes a lot of practice to get that coming out naturally. And don't worry—start awkwardly. It's really okay. Say to Lily, “Hey, I'm going to try this new skill so that it doesn't feel like I'm attacking you. And you can have a piece of paper right there, walking you through the steps. So you can explain to her that you're trying to do it differently.

Remember that the validation and understanding is what you're going for. So keep that front and center. And then the third thing is: if all of a sudden she reacts with anger or shutting down, you stop yourself. You say out loud, Hold on. What did I just say that was invalidating?” Just really stop.

It's like stopping the car because someone's throwing up. Whoa, you're going to stop the car. You're not going to keep driving and ignore it. Don't keep going with the conversation if she reacts in that aggressive way or angry way, or even withdrawing. So at that moment, stop yourself. And that's the key: to say, “Whoa, what did I just say that was invalidating?”

Or, “Wait, I think I need to say that differently.” Or, “Maybe this is not the best time.” You were talking about timing. Maybe you guys try to talk to her after school, when she's exhausted. She just spent eight hours doing what everybody wanted her to do—that's exhausting. So maybe your timing has not been great. Maybe Saturdays or driving in the car are a typically great time to talk to kids. So there are a lot of techniques that actually help you communicate more effectively. 

[00:41:13] AJ: It's funny you say that. A lot of this stuff happens either at the end of the day or going to bed at night when we're trying to explain stuff to her after a long day at school. And then she has another two-hour practice of cheer at the end of the day, right before, when she gets home.

And now it kind of makes sense. She's just done, just over it and we're just pushing. I probably am worse with it than Nicky because of how similar Lily and I are. And then it's just a cycle of all the things, and we clash. And sometimes Nicky's got to be like, “You guys need to separate for a while.” 

[00:41:59] Leslie: I don't know if you've ever tried this, but when I make a phone call to any of my three kids, who are adults now, the first question I try to ask is, is this a good time to chat? I'm not even trying to bring up anything major. I'm just trying to say hello. But it's consent. That's a great habit to get into. And kids feel respected when you actually say, “Is this a good time to talk?” Secondly, we have to resist the urge—just because I want to talk about it doesn't mean it's going to be the most effective time.

So I might have an urge, A strong urge is, I want to say this, I want to say this. Go write down on a piece of paper an IOU you to yourself. I know I want to talk about this with Lily. Put it on a piece of paper. Maybe even make a date with her for it. Or just remind yourself this is not the most effective time. I'm going to save this for another time.

Now I would guess fifty percent of those I need to talk to Lily, about fifty percent of those I need to talk to her actually disappear because time moves on. I don't really need to talk to her. I was just trying to feel like a parent and telling her what she should be doing.

It makes us feel good that we are being: I'm the parent. I'm telling her what to do. Well, actually, we just got through that moment and we got through without me having to tell her what to do. So timing is important. And yes, I think you two are very similar, to help you understand her reactions are similar to yours. There's shame. There's shame, there's an anxiety about doing things. These are both very similar for the two of you. 

[00:30:49] AJ: Absolutely.

[Music: Dreams in Nature by Olexy]

[00:43:58] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: I really want to thank AJ and Nicky, because today's session was particularly about vulnerability, about opening up and sharing those uncomfortable moments. We all shared our vulnerability. For AJ, it was about being afraid of therapy. But whether you are going or your child's going, we want to make sure that therapy is about growth.

And yes, the way we get the most out of therapy is by practicing vulnerability. I also modeled vulnerability because I admitted to making a mistake. I realized that my email was too much for AJ, and so my vulnerability helps me share with them as well as finding out what I can do differently next time. We all practiced being vulnerable in this session, and I think we all walked away feeling better about being uncomfortable.

So my takeaway is: thinking about how you can practice vulnerability. What that means is practicing being uncomfortable. And remember, practice is the operative word here, because vulnerability is like any other skill. It takes practice being uncomfortable. And yes, it can be scary; but it opens you up to closer and richer connections with the people in your life.

Nicky and AJ practiced vulnerability through the DEAR MAN skill to communicate about a difficult subject, and they walked away feeling closer and more confident in their relationship. So this week, remember, give yourself permission to be vulnerable.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

If you want to learn more about the DEAR MAN skill, join us on Thursday for a mini-bonus episode, where we'll go over more examples that you can use in your relationships with your children and other people. And then join us next week for the second half of this session, where we focus on communicating with their daughter Lily, especially around unwanted behavior and her resistance.

You can subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildmonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury.  Thanks so much for joining me.

Transcribed by Eric Rubury