Nicky & AJ Part 4 of 4: When Rewards and Punishments No Longer Work

Parents often go to therapy when the rewards and punishment no longer work because trying to get your child to do what you need them to do can be very challenging. And when the parent’s anxiety gets added to that mix, the result is frustrating and overwhelming for everyone.  This is the final session with Nicky and AJ as they discuss getting their 11 year old daughter Lilly off to school each day and getting her to clean up after herself.  

Time Stamps

3:46 Ask yourself “did it feel more effective to do something different” and "did it feel better to you?” whether or not, we got the outcome that we wanted.

5:05 What its like to live with someone who does not complete a task, often someone with ADHD.  

7:33 Bring mindfulness skills to the person who doesn’t complete a task

10:25 Make expectations explicit because everyone may have different expectations

11:58 Example of parent using rewards to change your child’s behavior

12:47 Discussion of rewards and punishments

15:15 Using rewards is a way to manage and control behavior, it may not actually teach her to develop behavior that she doesn’t want to do. 

17:09 Assess the problem that you want to solve

17:50 Keep track of the behavior - collect data

20:17 Determine whose problem is it? Start by changing your behavior

Engage your child into the solution of the problem

24:50 When you understand something about your child, be sure to verbalize it to her

26:38 Setting up contingency plan when there is a pattern of problematic behavior

• Do it without anger or shaming
• Lay out the plan in advance

30:32 A Parent’s anxiety usually makes your children’s anxiety worse

32:26 Fighting reality vs accepting reality when your child doesn’t do things the way you want them to.

33:47 Whose problem is it?  Remember to work on your part of the problem

34:19 Practicing mindfulness skills for ADHD behaviors  

Leslie-ism: In moments of stress or anxiety ask yourself “whose problem is it?

Resources:  

GIVE Skill Handout by DBT.tools
Leslie's Handout on Whose Problem Is It?

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury.  A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support to make this possible.

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

[00:00:00] Nicky: I don't know how to move forward sometimes without, almost, having like a carrot at the end of the stick. That feels like it's always about taking something away, which is not where I want to be. I want to be able to motivate her in ways that don't require electronics.

[00:00:22] Leslie: Reward and punishment are often the first tools that parents turn to, and then they find themselves at a loss when it doesn't work. And it's only one of the many parenting tools to use to motivate your child. This is, Is My Child a Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. I'm your host, Leslie Cohen-Rubury; and no, your child is not a monster, and neither are you. 

This is the second half of my final session with Nicky and AJ. Last week we focused on shame around going to therapy and the communication between Nicky and AJ using the specific Dialectic Behavior Therapy skills called DEAR MAN and STOP. If you don't know what those are—please consider listening to last week's episode. This week we're talking about their 11-year-old daughter, Lily and how we use these same skills to get children to do what we want them to do more effectively. 

This episode brings up that dirty word, control, and what that means. So if it's your goal to actually control your child, this isn't the podcast for you. This podcast says, collaboration and mutual respect are way more effective parenting techniques; because with control the means don't justify the ends. We also cover time management, contingency plans, motivation, and how your anxiety impacts your children.

So now as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And although I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. 

This episode begins with AJ describing a recent interaction with his daughter. So let's jump in. 

[00:02:29] AJ: The other day, I felt like…Lily has a tendency, when she opens things like wrappers and she leaves them on the counter and drives me crazy. So the other night I literally picked them up, walked them out, and I looked at her calmly and I said, “Hey, can you look at me while we're having a conversation right now?” I said, “Can you try, when you unwrap something, to make sure you throw it away or come back to throw it away so we don't leave them on the counter?” And she's like, “Okay, I'll try.” And I didn't get loud. Because sometimes I would, because of how I am, I get very tense about it. And I was thinking to myself, I was like, Maybe I should try something different.

And hopefully she responds to it and eventually throws her stuff away. But she has a tendency to just leave stuff and then walk away and not come back. And part of its I understand because I probably do the same things. So I was trying to go about it in a different way to get her to follow through. And hopefully the gentleness of it was better than me getting very aggressive and very intense about it.

[00:03:46] Leslie: Okay. So two questions I have for you. Did it feel better to you? You tried something different—did it feel better? Did it feel more effective? 

[00:03:53] AJ: It definitely felt better because I wasn't coming from a, uh, angry place. It was just coming from a… 

[00:03:59] Leslie: Fantastic. Pat yourself on the back. If nothing else, that's fantastic. So if she keeps leaving things on the counter. We don't always get what we want in life. 

[00:04:13] AJ: Yeah. 

[00:04:14] Leslie: But if we can act effectively where we're proud of ourselves and we act in a way that's according to our values. I don't want to go around being angry at my daughter. So if that changes because you changed your behavior, that is quite an accomplishment.

And I would be saying to myself, Yay, I did it. I want to do that again. And whether we get what we want, that's not in our control. It's wonderful when we get what we want and I will tell you, you have a much, much greater chance of getting what you want because of the change in your behavior.

But she's got a lot to do because, here I am, a full grown adult, lived many, many, many years, and it was only recently that my son pointed out that every time I open a cabinet in the kitchen or I take out the butter, I don't complete the task. I don't close the cabinet, I don't put the butter back.

It's like I do something, but I don't complete it. To me, completing it is getting the plate out of the cabinet. To me, completing is not closing the cabinet. And so I was driving him absolutely nuts and for a while it was just feeling his tension. So we would kid around that the first 24 hours when I'd visit was brutal, because he would get so frustrated with me. Then I became mindful of his feedback and I was like, Let me watch myself. And my mindfulness practice actually allowed me the awareness of I—many, many times—open a cabinet, don't close it; take something out, don't close it, don't put it back. I was like, wow.

So my mindfulness practice is what has helped me change my behavior at 66 years old. I'm like, wow, look at me. So that's the other part of changing someone's behavior. When you don't yell at her, you are allowing her to have a problem, but you're not shaming her with it. You might be pointing out, “Hey, I noticed…” This is the Describe: “Hey, I noticed that your wrapper is on the counter.”

Right now the Express is: that's frustrating to me. “I realize it's frustrating to me. It may not be frustrating to you because leaving the wrapper on the counter may not be a problem for you. I realize it is my problem. I'm wondering…” here's the Ask “...I'm wondering if you can mindfully notice that when you open something the wrapper then sits on the counter rather than finishing the opening of it and putting it in the garbage. I wonder if you can use your mindfulness exercises to both increase your follow-through and do it as a cooperative way of living in a household with someone who actually doesn't want wrappers on the counter. I get if you were living in your household, you would not care about the wrappers on your counter.”

How does that sound? I mean, first of all, I want to say just keep doing what you're doing. If you want to create change in her behavior, I would bring mindfulness to it. I would bring mindfulness, and I'd probably try to do it with her in the moment a few times. Like if you're in the kitchen together and she opens it, say, “Hey, can you be mindful of having those crackers? Can you be mindful of having that bar and opening the package?” I won't tell her what to do. I'm just saying, “Can you be mindful of what you're doing?” 

[00:07:59] AJ: Okay, sounds fair. 

[00:08:02] Leslie: It sounds fair. And that's the problem-solving part. That's the change side of it. But what you did…and you accomplished it, I don't care if she does or doesn't throw the wrapper away. You accomplished the I'm changing my behavior. You are fixing your problem. You are not fixing her problem. Okay—she's got a lifetime to fix her problems. You are fixing your problem. And that is so fantastic. 

[00:08:29] AJ: Well, that's good to hear, 

[00:08:32] Leslie: And it's good to feel, didn't you say it felt good? 

[00:08:35] AJ: It did. I felt a little more at ease, not getting so anxious or just mad about it. It happens all the time and in my head I'm like, How am I going to convey this? Because it's one of those things that really bugs me.

And I've had to do my own things around that probably drove my wife nuts, like coffee rings on the counter that I would walk away from. And she got me mindful of that. So now every time I pull my cup away, I'm always looking to make sure to wipe the counter in case there's coffee on it. After many times of her reminding me, “Hey, this is what happens when you pour your coffee and it spills. And obviously Nicky wasn't aggressive about it. She was just, like, “Hey, you're leaving a mess.”

So maybe many years of that and noticing other things, because I would get very…I'd be like, “Lily, how many times do I have to tell you to throw your stuff away?” And then that's when it turns into everything we talked about before with the shame and the coming back at you. 

[00:09:59] Leslie: And I can actually bring something up from the last session, which is, at the end of the session we talked about expectations. And that if you change expectations on Lily, if she thinks she's coming home and hanging out, but you need to take her to an activity or go shopping, that change of expectation can get her really upset.

[00:10:24] AJ: Yeah. 

[00:10:25] Leslie: Well, your expectation that she should put her wrapper in the garbage—it's an expectation. And we want to remember, we don't all have the same expectations. Your expectation of her is I want to control her behavior. And it's great to know what works for you and what doesn't.

And I would acknowledge that with her. “Hey, I realize that I love when you open a wrapper that it goes in the garbage. That's my expectation. That's how I work. But I see that you do things differently.” And so now we start from a place of respect. We get rid of the expectation and we then say, how are we going to get along? What do we want to do to work this out? That's the third area. You can do mindfulness, you can do the-change-your-behavior, and then you can do some problem-solving together where you brainstorm together, which we've talked about. 

Did you want to bring up any other examples with Lily, whether it has to do with expectations? Nicky, I want to give you a chance to see if there's anything you wanted to talk about. 

[00:11:40] Nicky: I think our hardest part with Lily is we're still trying to navigate to figure out how we get her to do some of the things that have to be done. I do have to say this past week we have a problem with her getting up, getting ready, going to the bus on time. And I finally said to her, “Listen, if you can get ready by 7:30, head-to-toe ready,” and we went over what “ready” meant, and we were very specific—I said, “You can take your phone to school with you on the days that you are ready from head to toe.” 

And she got up every single day and was ready by 7:30. But I feel where I get stuck is without almost having, like, a carrot at the end of the stick, I don't know how to move forward. Sometimes it feels like it's always about taking something away, which is not where I want to be. I want to be able to coexist and to be able to understand her better and, and motivate her in ways that don't require electronics.

[00:12:47] Leslie: That is a very common question that I get, which is: If it's not for rewards or punishment, I can't motivate my child. Often, it's the number one reason why people come to therapy. I've taken everything away and I can't motivate my child. Motivation is not usually the problem. It is what else is getting in the way of their behavior.

When we use rewards or punishment, the punishment and the reward becomes all that the child is aware of, as opposed to learning to change their behavior. So I will use rewards on very short-term things. So if, for example, my daughter was playing violin and she just needed to get in the habit of holding her hand in a certain way. I actually said, “If I catch your hand in that position while you're playing violin, if I catch you 20 times doing that, we're going to go out for an ice cream treat.” Once I got her in the habit of using her hand in that position, it would stick, it would become a habit and the reward. It doesn't matter that I was rewarding her for that.

On the other hand, if I am rewarding my child for doing their homework or being nice to someone or getting out of the house on time, then the emphasis is on the reward and not the behavior. So if I want my daughter to improve her time management, to manage getting out of the house, I may not want to reward that. And that's the feeling you get: Well, the only way I can get her motivated is…because we know she wants her phone. We don't know that she knows how to do something when she doesn't want to do it. And actually giving yourself a reason why you want to do something is a very important thing.

And she doesn't really have a reason why she wants to get to school on time. She doesn't really have a reason why I want to get dressed and get out of the house by 7:30. But you gave her a reason when you said, “You can have your phone.” If you take away that phone. And let's say she doesn't use her phone.

Let's say you find out at school, she's using her phone during the day and teachers are complaining that she's on her phone when she shouldn't be. Then you're going to take it away. Now you're back to the problem. You didn't actually change or fix the problem, you just managed it and controlled it. So it's actually a controlling way of getting her to do what you want, but not actually helping her develop the behavior of, “How do I do something I don't want to do.”

[Music: In the forest by Music for Videos]

[00:15:53] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Hi, I’m Leslie Cohen-Rubury, host of Is My Child a Monster?, a parenting skills podcast, and I've got room for two or three more families to round out our incredible season. You can apply to be a guest on Is My Child A Monster? at ismychildamonster.com. And remember, not everybody knows about this, so tell your friends who are parents, who might be curious, who might be struggling, that they can get some help for free.

[00:16:24] Leslie: So number one, I go back to: build that foundation, connect to her. And we discussed this last time, she gets up on the weekend when there's no cheer, there's no pressure. But when it comes to getting up and going to school, that's not something she wants to do. So sometimes having a conversation of, “Wow, starting your day and going to school is really monumental for you.” And I would connect. Is it the length of the day? Have a conversation. Is it how long the day is? Or use that line, “You must have a very good reason for not wanting to go to school.” And I want her to understand that there's something about going to school that makes it really, really, really hard for her.

[00:17:09] Leslie: First, I would assess the situation. When you say she's late to school without the phone, let's go back a moment to when you weren't using the phone. When you weren't using the phone, how late were you? How late was she? 

[00:17:24] Nicky: Well, she was like a minute out the door before the bus came, so she wasn't late for the bus. I think she's missed the bus a couple times, but she was almost late for the bus. 

I would actually keep track. I love science experiments. I'd actually say in 30 days of school you miss the bus zero times, one time, 28 times…what number would you say in 30 days? How many times would you say she misses the bus?

[00:18:06] Nicky: In this past 30 days, she hasn't missed it. 

[00:17:44] Leslie: Okay. Who's got the problem here? [Laughter] I know you started using…so before the phone thing…when did you start the phone? I would say before the phone thing, how many times did she miss the bus in a 30 day period?  

[00:18:24] Nicky: I would say twice. She's only missed it a couple times this year.

[00:18:30] Leslie: So, I am curious what problem you're fixing. She's making the bus. She's not late.

[00:18:39] Nicky: I guess my problem is she's not ready and then I have to stop because I work from home. So then I have to stop, to then help her finish getting ready, to get her out the door. 

[00:18:52] Leslie: Okay. Then the problem is…

 [00:18:54] Nicky: …me.

[Laughter]

[00:18:54] Leslie: Yes, yes, yes. We can change that, so that you don't stop doing what you're doing. Or maybe that's a time for you guys to connect, not for you to nag her, but for you to maybe put music on and tell stories and what are you looking forward to. Or maybe just stay out of her way. I'm curious. I think the idea is if she's making the bus. Why am I making that a problem? And you just said, because you have to stop doing what you're doing. What if you don't stop doing what you're doing?

[00:18:24] Nicky: She will miss the bus. 

[00:18:24] Leslie: Are you a hundred percent sure of that? 

[00:19:36] Nicky: A hundred percent sure. 

[00:19:36] Leslie: Why? What are you doing that's making sure she doesn't miss the bus? That's great information. What are you doing?

[00:19:41] Nicky: I'm helping her put her shoes on, fill her water bottle, get her computer together, put it in her school bag—all the last minute things. And I guess the frustration is, she's been awake since 6:45, but doesn't actually get out of bed to start getting dressed until 7:20 and has to be at the bus stop at 7:35.

[00:20:06] Leslie: Similar to what we did with AJ in terms of getting angry at Lily, changing what you are doing is really an important step here. First of all, right now you are doing those things for her, filling her water bottle, putting her computer away, um, putting on her shoes with her, and all of those things.

I would actually have a discussion, which is: “In order for you to make the bus, I help you do A, B, C, and D.” And I'd write them down. “Here's a list of the things I do with you in order to get out on the bus. I would like to stop putting your shoes on with you. Which one of these five things on the list would you like me to stop doing?”

“We'll switch from me doing it to you doing it, and you still make the bus.” And she'd say, “I can put my shoes on, Mom. You don't need to help me do that.” So then you go for a week or two weeks and you see if she makes the bus. She puts her shoes on, you still do those three other things. But she does her shoes. Do you see where I'm going? 

[00:21:15] Nicky: Yes. 

[00:21:16] Leslie: Where am I going? 

[00:21:18] Nicky: With me giving her more responsibility and her picking it. And me removing, as long as she makes the bus, my expectations, I guess, are different,. 

[00:21:32] Leslie: Right. It doesn't feel good to you for her rushing in the last 15 minutes from 7:20 to 7:35. You're, like, nuts, this is crazy. Okay, so what? I know it's crazy, but if make our children crazy with what we want, they really struggle. It's the same thing with the wrapper. You have every right to want the wrapper to be put in the garbage, but I don't want to stop respecting her and say, “You know what? Living in a house where I want you to put wrappers in the garbage is my desire. I have a feeling it's not your desire. If you were living on your own, if you left the wrapper on the counter, that might not be a problem for you. And we are trying to coexist, so let's figure out how we can do this together.”

Her getting ready for school, if she's not missing the bus, it's not bothering her. It's her problem. But she's making the bus. She doesn't see a problem here. If you have a problem with doing too much for her, absolutely work on that. Work on it slowly. take it step by step. Sometimes, like we saw, if the step is too big, it actually won't work. 

It's actually building mastery. You're giving her a chance to build the skills to say, “Wow. I got out of the house, and this time I put my shoes on by myself. Mom didn't have to help me.” You know, again, you are working together because she sees everything is working fine. She's making the bus. It's not working for you, and that's great. Now let's work together. Let's collaborate on solving this problem. But it's first identifying that you actually were the one with the problem of she's not doing it the way I like it. Does that seem like it gives you a way to make that work? Can you work on that? 

[00:23:29] Nicky: Yes. Because when you break it down that way, it's very apparent that it's actually my anxiety about her missing the bus because that affects me. And then I have to take off time from work to go take her to school. So her waiting till the last minute in my eyes is what's giving me anxiety, and then I am lashing out because of the way that I'm feeling.

[00:23:53] Leslie: Beautiful recognition. Oftentimes that's such a huge step for us to recognize our part in the problem. And I'm not saying she doesn't have that time management issue. There're many reasons why that might be there, and that's important to assess. Is she avoiding school? Does she have difficulty managing her time? Or is she trying to get you to realize your part in the problem? Kids will help us see our part in the problem. 

[00:24:27] Nicky: I think it's actually both not wanting to go to school and time management because she definitely does not want to go to school. And when we ask, she says it's boring, but then we also know there's bullying issues going on as well. So she really does not have a desire to go to school, so I don't blame her for not wanting to pop out of bed and get ready for a place that she dreads. 

[00:24:50] Leslie: Make sure she knows that you understand that. She's going to appreciate a parent who understands her. Remember AJ, you grew up where you felt like your parents didn't understand you. So even though we think it, we've got to say it. “Hey, I get that going to school is not easy. I get why, when you wake up on a weekday, that you may not get out of bed. School is boring, there's bullying. I don't know that I would want to go to work if those things were a problem for me.” 

[00:25:20] AJ: Yeah. 

[00:25:20] Leslie: But there is breaking down what you see as a problem. What's my part in it and how do I respect her part? How can I do it possibly without rewards and punishment? Because you're breaking it down. And now it's a little tricky because now to go backwards and say you don't get to take your phone, I would still work on the problem and maybe just not make it a reward.

Maybe she gets her phone every day. If she can have her phone some days, then maybe she should get her phone every day so that she goes back to working on: How do I get myself up? How do I make a bus even when I don't want to do it? 

The last thing I want to say is if you end up having to take her her twice a year, I don't think that requires punishment.

That to me is a random act of kindness. “You didn't make the bus today. You make it 98% or 99% of the time. You make the bus, you miss the bus. Okay, let's have a little drive together to school.” That, to me, may not even require a punishment. It may just I'm going to do something nice for someone who made a mistake. Plain and simple. 

The other thing is, if it was happening more often, I might say we need to set up a contingency. So the contingency is if you don't make the bus, then maybe since that takes me about an hour out of my day, maybe that means you are going to help with some house cleaning or some outside chore or something like that, just so that you know you are helping me when I'm helping you. And that can be a contingency that's very reasonable, done without anger, and done without shaming. I stopped what I was doing and you can help me do something that would be helpful to me. 

[00:27:21] Nicky: That sounds like a good idea. 

[00:27:23] Leslie: One important thing about contingencies is to lay that out before it happens. “So, we're entering the school year. Here's our contingency plan for if you miss the bus one to three times: I don't actually care. One to three times is: I'm there for you. I'm helping you out. We all make mistakes.” So that actually teaches her we don't have to be perfect. “On the fourth time, This is what the contingency will look like if I take you.” 

[00:27:50] Nicky: Okay. 

[00:27:51] Leslie: Alright. So there's some gentleness to the approach as well. 

[00:27:55] AJ: It's funny when she was explaining that—when Nicky realized that her anxiety was coming out for her being late. I can relate, because she goes into the office once a month and so I stay home, go into work late to put her on the bus. And I see that and I always text her. I'm like, “I don't know how you deal with this every day.” But I also feel our anxiety towards her makes hers worse, and it just explodes.

[00:28:29] Leslie: That is the key to parenting, because our anxiety makes our children's anxiety worse. A hundred percent. So if we want to help our children, let's start with ourselves. 

[00:28:47] AJ: Because the last time I was home with her, I had to put her on the bus and then quickly leave to go to a dentist appointment right after. So I didn't want her to be late because I wanted to drive her to school then be late for my dentist appointment. 

So I tried to calmly. I said to her, “First of all, I don't want to fight. I just want to get this day smooth,” and get her out of bed. But some days I feel like she responds better with me there than when Nicky's at home. For some reason, I don't know, I feel like she, even though it's my anxiety's flaring up. She's not getting ready, but I also feel like she does it better those days than the comfort of having Mommy at home. She knows someone's going to be there. But I'm there—it's different. So I don't know if that's a trigger…not a trigger, but something else goes on with her that time. But also I'm already ready for work and ready to go, so I have time to go down—I fill her water bottle, I'll put her computer in her bag and I won't even tell her and she'll come down. And I tell her, “Hey, your water's ready. Your computer's in the bag. All you have to do is shoes and do your lunch. And she seems very responsive, but I don't know if it's because it's different.

[00:30:15] Leslie: It's a different energy. She doesn't have Mom's anxiety. And it's fresh. So sometimes we respond differently to something going on that's new or different. So yes, I think that's a good thing to point out. You guys can talk about it, but as you said, your own anxiety can get in the way.

And that's where—go back to this idea of expressing—remember, in the DEAR MAN, it's: describe the problem, express how you're feeling. “Hey, I know I have a lot of anxiety, and you know what?” If you had a dentist appointment—this might sound really harsh—but if she is old enough to stay home alone, I might say to my child, “Hey, if you miss the bus tomorrow morning, I'm going to be home with you. I have to get to a dentist appointment on time. So if you miss the bus, I will come back after my dentist appointment and take you to school, but it will be about 11 o'clock. Or I'll give you the phone number for our neighbor and maybe our neighbor will come pick you up because I'm not going to be available to take you to school. If you miss the bus, I'm leaving the house.” 

Some parents are like, “No, I wouldn't do that.” But they'll instead get really angry at their child, which is understandable, instead of being honest and giving your child a natural consequence of, “I'm leaving and the dentist is the opposite direction of school. So I'll be back after my dentist appointment and take you.” Parents think that they always have to sacrifice their wellbeing. No, I want to teach my child it's self-respect. I'm going to take care of myself, and I do know you need to get to school. I will be back as soon as my dentist is over to take you to school.”

Or “Let's find someone else who can take you to school if you miss the bus.” So it's really thinking outside of the box and not just staying anxious and tense about the situation. “Hurry up, hurry up, hurry up.” That's not problem solving, that's just getting upset over a problem. That's not changing. That's fighting reality. That's the funny part—that's fighting reality. Accepting reality is: she's going to make the bus by the skin of her teeth. 

[00:32:39] AJ: Okay. Which is, that's what happens most of the time. 

[00:32:42] Leslie: But most of the time she makes it. Isn't that amazing? 

[00:32:46] Nicky: That's true.

[00:32:47] AJ: It's almost like she just realizes she needs to get it together. And I have that same quality where you'll procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate, and then all of a sudden you want to do a thousand things in five minutes and you're to like get everything done that you need to get done.

And I still do that nowadays, sometimes, with some things.. But I see it in her, and even though I know what to expect, because I've done it, it still gives me the anxiety. Because I'm fearful that she's not going to finish what she needs to finish. I don't know…it’s… 

[00:33:25] Leslie: It's hard to watch your child struggle. That's the bottom line: it's hard to watch your child struggle. You want to give them the skills. We want to give them the mindfulness skills, the time management skills, all of that. But right now we're talking about the two of you understanding the problem from a different perspective.

So give all that a try. Remember that working step-by-step on the problem is a good thing. Work on: Whose problem is it? Own your part, work on your part. And then she has more space when you get your anxiety out of the way and you're dealing with your anxiety, sometimes I say out loud, “Hey, I'm going to go deal with my anxiety while you get yourself ready for school,” so we're clear. “I'll work on my problem. You work on your problem.” 

And I love throwing the word about mindfulness. “Can you be mindful of getting your shoes on before you get out the door?” “Can you be mindful of throwing away the wrapper?” That's the number one skill to teach someone with ADHD, since our brains are going all over, we are practicing holding our mind on one thing at a time instead of the multitasking.

[00:34:46] AJ: Absolutely. [Laughter]

[00:34:48] Leslie: Alright. Thank you both so much. This has been really exciting to work with you to help you change some of your behaviors so that it will help Lily grow up the best she can to deal with understanding herself who she is, and that's your job as parents. So thanks for doing all the work.

[00:35:11] AJ: Thank you. 

[00:35:12] Nicky: Thank you

 [Music: Acoustic Guitars Ambient Uplifting by Oleksii Kaplunskyi]

[00:35:21] Leslie Cohen-Rubury: First of all, a big thanks to NIcky and AJ. I really worked with them to see their part in Lily's behavior and what they could do to have an impact on the defiance, the difficulties, and the challenges that they're presented with. 

There's sort of a framework that I want to create here. It's one, start with yourself. Look at yourself, see what your part is. See how far that gets you. And then the second step in the scaffolding is making sure you accept your child for who they are. With the final step being: then you get to the problem-solving.  These three things, of course, they're interchangeable, they're fluid. But it is important to make sure that you are starting with yourself.

You are accepting your child for who they are, and then eventually you get to the problem-solving. Because I've said it before, we don't want to come in with trying to fix our children. 

And sometimes I think people, when they're listening to these episodes, think that I don't think children need to change. But I'm not saying that. Children need room to grow. They need room to make mistakes. They need parents who are willing to model effective tools and then they need time to practice using the skills. And of course, all of that is surrounded by a lot of connection and understanding. But remember, no one gets everything right the first time.

So: practice, practice, practice. And that circles me back to managing your expectations, expectations that you have of your child, that you have of yourself, and that you child may have as well. Sometimes the expectations don't line up. 

If you are curious to learn more about raising a responsible child versus an obedient child, I talk a lot about that in Episode 23 in Season One. Go to the links in the show notes to find that episode. 

And this week, in moments of stress or anxiety, ask yourself: Whose problem is it? And join us next week to learn more about the root causes of childhood trauma and steps to take to help prevent it, with special guest Dr. Lorie Ritschel. 

You can subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. And I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining me.

Transcribed by Eric Rubury