Krystal & Burt Part 1 of 3: When Kids Pick up on Marital Tension

There is so much going on in a family between raising the kids, making a living to provide for the family and managing a household.   In today’s session, we meet Krystal and Burt, a family based in the UK who have 2 children, 12 year old Mat, and 8 year old Margo.  They recently moved to a rural farm with animals that they also raise.  Making time for the kids, making time for the relationship and running their lives is what Burt called “volume overload”.  And it is through that lens of “volume overload” that we unpack the sibling rivalry between the kids.  

Time Stamps

7:33 Assessment to help understand what’s going on with Sibling rivalry

12:48 The stress of being a neurodivergent parent - ADHD and Dyslexia

19:20 Things can be easier when one parent is in charge compared to when both parents are present

20:17 Tension between parents:

• When parents feel unsupported
• When parents feel dismissed
• When parents don’t want to be the ‘bad guy” 

24:10 Parenting styles are a compilation of who you are and the experiences you had in your childhood

24:50 How to tolerate the differences

• 25:45 What part do I need to radically accept and what part do I need to change

27:15 How do you as a parent like to be appreciated? (words, back rubs, hugs etc)

28:38 The tension of not being appreciated can be addressed with check ins

29:45 Step away from the problem in order to solve the problem - Relationships need nourishment

31:10 What small ways can you create emotional connection in busy lives

• Build up the strengths and the emotional connection
• 35:10 Mindfully acknowledging each other on entering or exiting a room
• Play a simple game between you and your partner 

35:40 The children will learn that a relationship takes connection. Model those small ways of connecting to help nourish the relationship

38:45 Relationships are so hard.  

40:40 The pain of the relationship can be in service of our healing

• We pick people who are going to help us grow as the pain in the relationship shows up. 
• Children help us grow as a human being 
• We bring our own pain from childhood to our current relationships

44:45 Parents can feel “volume overloaded”

45: 30 Practice some mindfulness exercises that help ground you

47:35 Balancing the dilemma/tension of getting through the present moment and at the same time planning goals for the future. 

48:44 Metaphor of a tree with roots - root yourself and ground yourself in your daily life with mindfulness and connection and small little breaks

50:59 Turning the family structure upside down

52:20 Connection is so important and understanding the effects of disconnection

Leslie-ism: Take a moment to root yourself in your daily life through connection.

Resources:  

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:03  Burt: I'm not sure it's the appreciation that I want.

0:08  Krystal: I regularly hear that from you; and more like, I'm not feeling loved here, I haven't had a hug or any affection.

0:21  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: There are a lot of factors that affect the job of parenting, especially your relationship with your co-parent. And the reality is, raising kids doesn't save marriages. It can actually expose underlying stress and tension, and your kids are going to pick up on that. I'm Leslie Cohen Rubury, and this is Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster, and neither are you. 

Today we meet Krystal and Burt, parents of 12-year-old Mat and 8-year-old Margo. They are a UK-based family who live on a farm, which brings a whole host of its own challenges. This episode starts much like the Anna sessions—all about sibling rivalry. But today's session uncovers a different root cause: relationship tension and parental overwhelm. We talk about how important it is for co-parents to connect with each other and to take time to focus on their relationship, not just on parenting. That might sound cliche, but connection really is that important. 

So now, as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed,. And though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. 

So let's get started. 

2:04  Leslie: Hello Krystal, hello Burt. How are you today? 

2:07  Burt: Good, thank you. And you? 

2:08  Krystal: I’m well, thank you. 

2:09  Leslie: I'm doing well. There might be a little cough, but we'll see how that goes. Okay, so tell me how things are going and what brings you here today.

2:17  Krystal: So, we've got two children. Mat is twelve and Margo is eight. And for the most part, they get along quite well. We do appreciate that they love each other, but sometimes there is a lot of commotion between the two of them. And I feel that their sort of interactions sometimes get to be so troublesome that Mat struggles to cope with the amount, the barrage, coming from Margo. And it's almost as if he's not allowed to breathe half the time, and the second he opens his mouth, she's on him; and especially in the car, at breakfast time and at dinner time—just all mannerisms upset her. And we should clarify that I think she has some, sort of, attention deficit; and she definitely has high level of dyslexia and dyscalculia. So her sensitivities are probably pretty high.

3:57  Leslie: Okay, so let me just turn to you, Burt, and is there anything you want to add about that?

4:05  Burt: Yeah, I guess they either really love each other or really hate each other. It comes across as…I mean, hate is a strong word, but the emotions are kind of one extreme to the other. So the past week they've enjoyed communicating in southern American accents, and they found a bonding over this. I think, almost, if you leave them to it and they're out of sight, they're happy. If you get them outside and we're away from them, they're happy. So I do feel somewhat that it's, it's a communication of our interaction with the two of them. 

When they fight, they definitely fight for attention, to the extent that Margo will insert herself between her brother and I. The other day, she said, “He's my dad.” So there is a dominance issue. I feel that there's an issue that I guess Mat hasn't, you know…he's quite small for age and she's quite big for age—they're on par, size wise. So I think there is an issue there, maybe a sensitivity. I've had lots of talks with him. I think he's quite frustrated to grow at the moment. He wants to get bigger, and he has had private talks with me about that. He's into swimming, so he does a lot of swimming, competing. 

So although he's doing very well, he feels a disadvantage when he's put in an age-based race. He's very competitive. And the fact that he's not growing yet, I think, annoys him. I was the opposite end of the spectrum, and I guess he's aware of that, so I was kind of fully grown and shaving by twelve. So I had my growth spurt quite early. And he's the other end of the spectrum. 

Historically, he's always been very, very talkative, very communicative, very chatty. He was always a happy, smiley, chatty baby. And for ages, he kind of spoke for his sister, and she didn't say a lot, to be honest. When she started to speak and find a voice, she kind of found that to stop him interrupting, screaming over him was a way to get what she wants.

6:59  Leslie:  Okay, so both of you just gave me a lot of information, and believe it or not, there are more questions. I think this idea that they've got this, as you described, a love/hate relationship—either they're really great or it's really intense in their sibling rivalry—and so we've got this issue of sibling rivalry. And the first thing we want to do—because there's so many different factors involved—is the assessment piece, really understanding what's going on. 

And I want to point out something you said, Burt, which is that you hear more of the sibling rivalry, when one or both of you are in the same location. So you're present, and it almost seems like they're vying for your attention, which is absolutely one of the functions of sibling rivalry. If we end up fighting each other, parent comes in and reinforces that. That's absolutely a natural part of sibling rivalry. So that was important information. A lot of information there. 

So we might need to look at, what are you two doing while they're fighting, and what can you do different? If what you're doing has actually not worked, it might be making it worse, or it's just not helping. Or we just say it's natural, and they're going to do that, but it sounds like there's something we can insert in there. 

But I did have some other questions. You also helped define when you said, Krystal, that he can't breathe because she's always responding at dinner, at breakfast, whenever they're together, she's making a lot of comments. So that was really helpful as well. The third thing that I heard that was really amazing is that when you said they were having fun with, I think you said south American accents that brought them together. So that's really important to say when they have a focus, when they have something shared, when they can connect, that they really do know how to get along. So that's really good information as well. 

Here's a few questions I have. How is it to deal with the sibling rivalry for each of you personally? So Krystal, we can start with you. Historically, did you come from…are you an only child? Did you have a lot of siblings and fighting? Give us a little context of how you feel when they're fighting with the context of anything from the past that might influence that.

9:41  Krystal: So the context is, I am an only child. My parents got divorced when I was probably eight or so. I saw my dad every other weekend. And my mother got remarried probably when I was about twelve. My stepdad is very straight-laced. They're both very sort of Catholic, wonderful people, I think. And I love my stepdad as well. My mom wasn't that nurturing. She was always the…she's a lawyer, and then became a judge, and she was always very busy with that. And my stepdad’s a lawyer as well. So I love my stepdad and my mother. And my dad, I saw he was a fun guy and and I love him very much as well. And he's been remarried. My stepmother passed away when I was at university, so he remarried again. 

So that's where we're at the moment, with me. I'm an only child, so spent a lot of time on my own, sort of on the phone or in my room. I didn't really have that much interaction with my mom. She was either reading at nighttime or watching TV, and so I had myself to entertain or be on the phone or watch TV. 

11:23  Leslie: So, what is it like for you to hear all that sibling rivalry? Does it shake up your nervous system? Is it really uncomfortable? 

11:33  Krystal: It makes me pretty uncomfortable, but I kind of feel like I'm supposed to ignore some of it and let them sort it out. But it escalates really quickly. One minute it's sort of banter or a little rough and tumble. And then suddenly it becomes, you know, proper choking out martial arts, or knocking her on the floor, and sort of manhandling her. And sometimes she'll, she'll... He hates being tickled. He cannot be tickled apart from me in the morning—I wake him up with a little light tickling. And that's okay, for some reason. But when it's her, and he says, “Stop,” and she doesn't, he takes that very, very aggressively, because she doesn't stop.

12:31  Leslie: So it sounds like it's really tough for him, but you've tried ignoring some of it. And then my guess is when it escalates to the point where you're possibly worried that something's going to happen—is that when you typically step in?

12:48  Krystal: I try to. But sometimes I think I'm slow to preempt things and so it often gets out of hand before I get to it. I think I'm a slow processor.

13:04  Leslie: Okay, that's fair. 

13:08  Krystal: And I think I've got attention deficit as well. And I think I have some form of dyslexia. I've not been assessed, and probably Burt thinks that I'm making it up, in some respects. And I sort of feel like I'm poo pooed. But yet, Margo, she's clearly got some issues, and so he accommodates her. But sometimes I feel like I should know better.

13:45  Leslie: Okay. So you both recognize who Margo is, and what she might be struggling with, and you feel like you give her the attention for that. But you're not feeling…so now I'm hearing a little piece of a relationship issue between the two of you, which might be a very important factor, especially since the kids tend to fight more around you. Let's hold that gently for a moment. But let me find out the context for you, Burt. How did sibling rivalry relate to you growing up, as contextual information? And also, how is it for you when you hear the kids fight? 

14:23  Burt: So, I have a brother, similar age gap to the two kids. We always got along together. On a weekend, I guess I would spend most of the time with my dad and my brother, doing things. I'd do some stuff with my mom, but less—it was generally the three of us, you know, going out on bike rides and doing things together. Then on a Sunday, we would always go around my grandparents. And I've got lots of cousins, predominantly male. We were quite a big group. So I was, I guess, when you get above two, a bit like with animals, it evens out, doesn't it—who's doing what, and who's been interfering, who's been picked on. So it kind of balances out, I think, when you get into larger group settings.

I feel that on my own, the situation is more manageable. I've taken them away on holiday myself, and I get less issue when it's just me. So as far as Mat and the tickling and things, I can hear what Krystal is saying, but he invites it. So he'll lie down to be wrestled with it. Then he gets dived upon by Margo. They're wrestling about. I'm quite tickle sensitive too. So I understand his issue. I know what it was like to be sensitive to being tickled. But he'll allow it and instigate it, and then it will just go too far. But it's the point of when it gets stopped—I guess I'm more inclined to stop it before it becomes a problem, whereas Krystal is quite often…if we're in the same room together, I'll be the one that stops it. And if you don't stop it, it's ended up that they've got carried away. He’s flailing his legs around and caught her in the nose and she's bled all over the sofa. So it's not intentional, but, yeah, it just gets heightened.

16:39  Leslie: Okay. So, it sounds like there are a lot of factors here going on, but that both of you have different childhood experiences. And it's interesting that you sort of, not mimic, but you relate to your children now in a similar way that you were relating to others when you were growing up. So Krystal, it makes sense you're saying you're slow at moving in on the kids when they're fighting and jumping in. That's interesting, because sometimes stepping in reinforces the sibling rivalry and makes it worse. If you step in just as they’re getting more intense at that moment, they're realizing, Wow, Mom comes in when we're at an eight. Or, Dad comes in when we're at an eight. So we know we get Mom or Dad if we go to an eight. 

But as you said, Krystal, you have not jumped in, either because of being ADHD, or whatever. I hear it as: because my mother would not have jumped in. Your mother was doing her thing. Your stepdad was doing his thing. Your dad was not around to step in. So in a way, you're not stepping in might be very natural to your system, because no one was stepping in, per se. I'm putting that in quotes. No one was “stepping in” to play with you, to be with you. I know there was no sibling rivalry as an only child, but they still weren't there, jumping in. 

So there may be a few factors why you don't jump in. One, you might be not realizing that it's escalating. Two, you might be focused, as an ADHD person is, on what you're doing, and have difficulty shifting, transitioning. Or it may be that a parent jumping in and being there is just not something that was modeled for you. So there are a number of factors. 

It sounds like there may be tension as a result of your behavior between the two of you, between, you know, Krystal and Burt there. It might cause tension. Also really understandable, whereas, Burt, it sounds like for you, what you're doing is working. If you step in before they get really out of hand, it quiets them down. And when you're alone with them, there's less of the friction. That's a very common thing that parents often say: one-on-two is so much better than two-on-two. As both parents are there, there is more tension in the whole system. And it's not uncommon that it's harder as a whole system than independently. 

And my guess is it would be a very natural conclusion, because it feels like it's causation. It would be a very natural conclusion to say, “Wow, if I'm alone with the kids, they're okay, they're good enough, they're fine. It must be, and it makes sense, it must be the other person. It must be Krystal that's causing the problem when we’re together.” And so sometimes we can go to blame, because “It's what Krystal's doing.” But it may not be a causation. It may be the fact that there's simply two of you there, and the children are fighting for your attention. 

So let me name the elephant in the room and just ask you: Do the two of you have tension that goes beyond this situation in terms of the the kids fighting,

20:28  Krystal: Of course. Yeah, yeah. 

20:31  Leslie: And do you feel like the kids pick up on that? 

20:35  Krystal: Definitely, yeah. 

20:38  Leslie: And why do you say, “of course”? Tell me what you're, “of course,” means.

20:43  Krystal: Well, they hear us have conflict, and I'm regularly told or asked, you know, why I don't jump in? And he doesn't want to be the bad guy, and I do nothing to stop it. And so it's uncomfortable for me and the kids hear it. And so now they're sort of correcting me on occasion. And yeah, it's hard.

21:14  Leslie: …yeah. Okay, go ahead and take a moment. 

Burt, can you share?

21:21  Burt: Yeah, it’s an example, I guess, so…Quite often, I'll be doing other things around the house. I'll rush to finish work. The kids need to get out to get swimming. I'll be in the middle of cooking dinner. A situation will arise and I'm trying to do one thing, and then there's no…I feel unsupported in dealing with the kids at that point. Something's erupting, sometimes Krystal’s right next to them…and there's no… I guess I feel like it always gets left to me to be the one who does any correction of the situation. And I get frustrated when I'm also doing so many other things to do with life, I guess, and then have that responsibility as well. And I feel that generally, quite a few things are thrust in my direction to deal with, and I'm the sole person in our relationship that ends up dealing with it.

22:37  Krystal: I think when it's a heated moment, yes, Burt definitely takes on a lot of the stoppage. I try when, it's not heated, to talk about how the other child is potentially feeling and and take it when they're more in their sort of thinking mind, to discuss it at quiet times. I don't always, but I try to, and hopefully that comes over for them. But Burt doesn't necessarily see those times. It's usually like before bed, I might mention or I'll text Mat and talk about how I was feeling with regards to what happened, or that I support them in their feelings. I just try to approach the kids more when they're calmer.

23:53  Leslie: I got it. Okay. So what's important here—and I'm actually seeing a parallel—you have two very different children, and you as parents, you are two very different people. And you have different approaches, both because of who you are and how you show up in the world, and because of your upbringing. I don't think we use those things, to acknowledge those things, because they're great excuses, “Well, look, I have ADHD, therefore I can't do what you're asking me to do.” There is some need, when you have different children and differences in yourselves as adults, to really be able to name the differences and accept the differences and then work on the differences. It's not to throw up your hands and we-just-have-to-do-what-we-have-to-do. 

So in this example, Burt, where you're saying that you are doing a lot of the tasks to run the household with the kids and all that, that if you can feel underappreciated, you don't feel the appreciation. And in your mind, I imagine you thinking, All she needs to do is step in right now, she's right there. What's wrong? Why can't you do it? …I'm making this up…And then you feel, And I don't even get any acknowledgement of what I'm doing. Those things become a major issue. And then it comes out, of course, in conflict and intention and stuff that the kids pick up. 

So you may have done it already, to be able to name it and say, “What parts of this relationship do I need to radically accept?” And that's a skill I could talk about for the children and for yourselves. What parts do I need to radically accept? Because this is my life. This is my wife. This is my husband. These are our kids. And what part of it can be changed and worked on? We don't want to throw up our hands in defeat, although that's often how people feel, because it feels like nothing's changing. And at the same time, we do want to look for small changes.

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27:12  Leslie: So Burt, have you ever asked to be appreciated, verbally appreciated, by Krystal?

27:19  Burt: No, and I'm not sure it's the appreciation that I want. It's just, yeah, I don't think I want to be appreciated. I just want…

27:32  Krystal: Just say, “I don't feel like I'm being appreciated.” I regularly hear that from you.

27:40  Burt: You do?

27:41  Krystal: And more, like, “I would like back rub. Could I have a back rub?” Or, “I'm not feeling loved here, I haven't had a hug or any affection.” Regularly says that, Burt says these things.

27:58  Leslie: Okay…

28:02  Krystal: But it's more like the way he wants to be shown appreciation is through the affection. And we're not necessarily feeling affectionate, because often, a lot of times, I feel like life is very rigid. And I feel like I'm stepping on eggshells sometimes around the house.

28:33  Leslie: So I'm going to make another suggestion, because it was a good example where Burt is actually saying, “I could use a back rub, I could use this.” And I'm so glad you said that, that you also don't feel appreciated because I had that thought and didn't say it. Oftentimes, what couples are feeling is: the tension is similar, just in different ways. So this feeling of leaning on a similar issue, which is: neither one of us feel appreciated. 

And I wonder if the kids are picking up on that, if they have their own feelings of being unappreciated—not unappreciated, not appreciated enough. Or maybe they feel very appreciated, and they feel they're entitled to more. But the thing for the two of you, and the idea that's popping up into my mind is actually having, I would call them family meetings, or for the two of you, check-ins. And the example where you said the kids are having fun with this talking the southern American accent, it's like sometimes the best way to solve the problem is to get in another lane and do something completely different. Like you said, life is rigid. So do you two need small, manageable ways of connecting, so that you're both feeling more emotional connection? And it steps away from the problem, in order to solve the problem. Do you know what I'm trying to say?

30:16  Burt: Yes. And I think when we take a break and do things together, there is a different sense of feeling. But of late, we've been that engrossed in building projects and getting one activity after the other done. It kind of eats into time.

30:37  Leslie: It does. And you had told me that you recently moved, you live on a farm. I believe you have animals that you care for. And so I can imagine that having made a move and doing just regular life, everyday life chores, there's a lot of stress. What we're talking about here, and the tension, and the tension that the kids are picking up on is maybe there's not enough room. And we're not talking about changing your lifestyle. We're not talking about huge changes. We're talking about what small things can happen to bring a little spaciousness into your very busy lives. 

Can you each name very small things that could be done, that maybe you've done in the past, or that you could start to do that may allow some of that connection? It is important, it is nourishing, and the relationship and the family system is struggling without it. You talked about the kids fighting and rough-housing. It's like you're not getting enough oxygen to your relationship. So can you give me some ideas?

31:51  Krystal: Well, it'd be nice to be able to try and get the kids, on occasion, to go to bed early so that we could have some time together. That seems to be the only time necessary. So I should say, Leslie, that on Fridays, the kids are at school, and we're both off. So if we're not doing a little chore, then we do get time off together, and we do very much enjoy those times. So we have our Friday sort of afternoon or mornings, and then nighttime, we have some time potentially, but the kids are home as well, and we don't like to push them away, because we see them so little as well. 

But basically at nighttime, we sit down, and a lot of time we just sit down to watch TV. And Margo will either be in the room with us or go watch her iPad or do some drawing or talk to a friend. And Mat is starting to want to be on his own as well, rather than sit down with us so much because he got a cell phone recently and wants to play a video game or talk to a friend. So that's when we could carve out more time.

33:14  Leslie: What are your ideas, Burt?

33:19  Burt: I guess when I was a kid, I used to play family games and things like that. But when we play, it does end up in disaster at the moment with the two of them. So, you know, we get Mouse Trap out or something like that, and it just ends up in a fight between the two kids. I would have thought that would potentially be enjoyable. And we did suggest having a games night on the weekend when we started unpacking things, but we haven't. Maybe we can try that this weekend and see whether that works. I think the thing is that because Mat processes a lot quicker, Margo gets frustrated. So that's where we where we clash.

34:07  Leslie: Okay. Krystal, was there something, before I jump in?

34:11  Krystal: Margo asked to have a family meeting a month or so ago, and to start having family meetings, and she wanted to lead them. But it never got off the ground.

34:24  Leslie: Wow, that's so funny—I wanted you guys to have family meetings, so I'm with Margo there. So my question was, what can the two of you do small things together that make you feel the connection? So that you both, even if it's not verbal appreciation, it's a back rub, it's smiling at each other. So one thing you can do is just—I just said it—smile at each other, acknowledge each other when you're walking in a room and out of room, because we move so quickly. We all move so quickly that I get it that none of us take the time. But it really doesn't take much time to walk into a room mindfully, acknowledge the person, say their name, look at them, give them a smile, and actually say, “I can see that you're working on making dinner…I can see that you're taking time to read a book.” And that acknowledgement is creating a bridge between the two of you that connects you. 

And if the kids start to hear this, it will affect them. They're seeing what it means to connect to each other. It's not going to take away all the problems. It's just helping build up the other side of we've got issues and we have strengths, and we're just building up the strengths between the two of you. And certainly, we're not going to do everything here to address all the issues, but that's a really important thing. 

So it could be mindfully acknowledging each other when you walk into the room. I love the idea of game night, but forget the kids. The two of you and I'm sharing this because one of the greatest things is my husband bought me for my 50th birthday years ago a backgammon game. Now, backgammon was huge because we went to college together, and we played backgammon all the time in college. So we hadn't played regularly at all in the past 35 years. And all of a sudden he bought this backgammon game; and I might only have 10 minutes between a client or something like that, and we would play a quick game of backgammon. And I can't tell you how strong that connection was to oh, we just sat down and played a game. 

So if you guys are game people, use those…to each other. So I love that idea. Game night is a wonderful idea for the whole family, but if it doesn't work for the whole family, try it for the two of you. So the temptation is to go right to sitting and relaxing after your hard day and watch a little TV. Sometimes it might be at lunch, sometimes it might be instead of TV. And again, having the children see this is extremely important that they see that a relationship takes connection. It's a long term investment, but when they see that people work together, play together, talk together, these are all things that they learn from you. 

So maybe you'll work on some of these small, really small, little ways of connecting to help nourish the relationship that feels like it's just running on empty because you're working so hard in your everyday life, if you know what I mean.

37:55  Krystal: We have been, in the past, a lot more affectionate and aware of each other. But Burt has started working from home, and he doesn't have a study at the moment, so he's often doing his work in the kitchen. And you'll often start to talk to him, and he completely blanks you, and he doesn't know it, because he's so intensely working. But it takes up so much attention that you just start to not bother to talk anymore because he's so busy.

38:45  Leslie: Okay…

38:47  Krystal: I mean, we go on walks with the dogs. And on Fridays, we'll go out to lunch, but if he's working or he's on his phone a lot of times. We'll say something, and we have to get his attention sort of four or five times before he responds. And sometimes he just doesn't respond because he's so into what he's doing. But he's a very intense person and so but…but… I'm sorry. I'm a very emotional person anyway. But it's hard now, lately.

39:32  Leslie: It is hard. Relationships are so hard. Try living with people in any level—it's an emotional thing, and it's challenging. So thank you for sharing. And I do want to say that—it may not be obvious—children bring us and relationships bring us to a healing place, even when it's painful. Actually, the pain in our life is the part that can be healing. So although I hear a lot of pain, and I hear true, genuine pain that you're feeling and you're expressing it with vulnerability, that pain is in service of our own healing. 

And that the issues that we have with children are helping us grow as human beings, as adults. So even though we think we're raising our children, our children are often helping us grow as human beings. And I think relationships are the same thing, and I'm going to offer you this idea, but you would need to decide whether it resonates with you and whether you want to pursue it a little bit on your own, which is: I grew up with (I'm going to add the word, I'm going to add the judgment) a brilliant mom who was a lawyer, who was a judge, who was extremely busy and who was not really available for me. So I can imagine, if I were in your shoes, that it would be cool to have that kind of mom, but lonely to have that kind of mom. Where am I in her life? Am I worth her time? Am I being seen? Am I being heard? Am I being understood? And then I get married, and I marry someone who's extremely talented, who's extremely bright, who does it all, and who's very busy, but it feels like they have no time for me. So it's amazing that we do pick people that are going to help us grow. 

So am I going to take Burt off the hot seat? No, Burt, you're not off the hot seat. You get to think about and hear and digest the information you're hearing as well. But we're not actually opening this up for all of that. What I am suggesting is that we acknowledge our own pain and what we bring to the relationship and families and children—boy, does that all bring it to the surface. 

And even though we're talking about how those things are coming to the surface for you, Krystal, it sounds like Burt, the same things are coming to the surface for you as well. Because here you are trying to do everything, and where's the support? Why am I doing it all? And we didn't actually hear from your history. Is there a theme of, I'm the one who does it all? I don't necessarily get the help because I'm capable, but I want the help. Just because I'm capable doesn't mean I don't want help. 

So I'm going to just keep it a little contained, this conversation, because I'd like you to think about these things individually. I do want to add that many times, working with families, parents come in, parents come to me and say, “We're having this problem with our child.” In your case, we're having this sibling rivalry, where the kids are really at each other all the time. And just like even in this first session, we end up seeing, wait a minute, there is tension in the relationship. Did the kids unknowingly…do their problems bring parents in to do the work that they need to do? I've seen it a lot, and a lot of the times I'm not working with the kids, I'm working with the family, the parents, the family system, and so it seems like that makes sense here as well. 

I am very curious, and I would like to possibly, in the next session, go more into the timing of their fighting when you're both around. Because if they get you guys upset, then when someone's upset, it tells me they've got a problem. So if I'm upset, I've got a problem, I’ve got to go deal with it. And so the children might be sending you off into your own little corners to say, Okay, what do we work on here? What comes first? We have to work on all of the pieces. What comes first? 

44:25  Krystal: Too many pieces. 

44:27  Leslie: So many pieces, so many pieces. Burt, I want to give you a chance to respond to all that.

44:35  Burt: I'm happy to work on things. As I said, I just feel volume overloaded at times. That's the be-all and end-all of it. And I think, I guess the life change of moving, plus adding all the building work for the past four years now, plus working from home has exacerbated the situation. 

45:03  Krystal: Plus a billion animals.

45:05  Leslie: Plus the animals who you can't take a break from. So let me add another idea, besides the games, besides acknowledging each other. You can do it together. Another together thing, very small, or you can do it independently is…I tend, I have been, a workaholic. I'd like to say I've healed some of that, but one of the things that sustains me beautifully is a mindfulness practice of breathing or grounding myself. 

So believe it or not, I would see, let's say I saw 12 clients years ago in one day. It's sort of a little absurd, but I did that. And the thing that sustained me—I do have a lot of energy so that it was manageable—but the thing that really, really sustained me was that my office was upstairs in an outside building, and I'd walk down the stairs, I'd come into my house, I'd walk up the stairs, in both walking down the stairs, walking up the stairs, and then repeating it, walking down the stairs and walking up the stairs. That was my moment, to be by myself, not to do anything for anyone else, and to be very present. 

So I am suggesting a mindfulness practice of breathing, maybe in between things, of laying down on the ground, maybe doing 10 jumping jacks, but doing something that grounds you in your own body, maybe together, and you turn to each other and say, “I need a break. But let's do three breaths together. Let's sing a song together,” whatever mindfulness practice you want to do, let's stand here and do a quick little shaking dance. Whatever you want to do, grounding yourself in your body is a beautiful way to sustain yourself when you're doing so much. Like you said, there's just so much on your plate. Would that be something? Have you ever tried, or can you do?

47:04  Burt: Yes, I'm willing. I'm not sure about singing, though.

47:08  Leslie: If singing isn't your thing, singing does not need to be your thing. And how does that sound to you Krystal, some of these ideas?

47:23  Krystal: Definitely. I mean, we've got all these plans. We've got sort of a gym above the garage that is yet to be made, and then we were going to work out, and that's where Burt is going to have his sort of standing desk. And we've got all these plans, but we want them all at once. And it's so frustrating. We've got this idea of the kids having their own sort of space to go to when their teens and hang out with their friends, but it's not there yet. And just so many things. We've got this idea that we're going to employ somebody to help us. It can't happen quick enough.

48:16  Leslie: “But it can't happen quick enough” And there is the dilemma. There is the tension between getting through the present moment and what are the big things we want to do. So there are long term goals and plans, and then there's living in the moment. And that creates tension. But if you're living in the moment saying, We want this, oh, we want this, we want this. That's fabulous, but where's the moment of, I'm grounded. 

I'm looking at a tree outside my window. The tree has its roots in place. It needs its roots. So I'm saying this between now and our next session: ground yourself, root yourself in your daily life with connection, with mindfulness and with just small little breaks. And then your branches get to stretch out into the things you want to do. And you want to have those branches of, where are we going, what are we doing? What are our goals? What are our dreams? That's fabulous. So you want a combination of both.

We can talk next time about the bigger things, because those are doable if we take step-by-step action so we don't get overwhelmed. But for now, let's see what happens. Let's even see what happens when you do the small things, connecting and grounding yourself in the moment. And let's see if it has any impact on the kids. 

49:45  Burt: Seems like a good plan. 

49:50  Leslie: I'm sort of curious, so you have to keep your eyes open. And sort of assess: are they doing the same thing as always, or, wow, they didn't have a fight, and they were just in the same room or whatever. So play with that idea, do a lot of observing, take some notes, and let's meet again in a few weeks, and see how this is going. 

50:07  Krystal: Sounds good.

50:08  Burt: Thank you. 

50:09  Leslie: There's so much going on. There's so much that you're doing as you show up in your life at this point. This is the hard time. Kids are young, you're supporting a household, a family, your lifestyle—there's so much going on. And so I really appreciate all that you do and that you made time for today. So thank you, and we'll see you again.

50:32  Krysta: Thank you, Leslie.

50:33  Burt: Thanks, Leslie.

[Music: Nature Calls by Folk_Acoustic]

50:41  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Wow, I've been there. I know parenting is overwhelming, and the first thing that goes is connection with your partner. So I want to explain something that I often think about, which is the structure of a family. We've got our kids, and we give our kids a lot of focus. But when there's a problem, we keep thinking that we need to focus on the children. But what I suggest is that you turn things upside down a little bit, and you understand that a family is formed because there was one individual, and that as an individual, you then added a partner, possibly, and then the children came along. So we don't want to forget what comes before the kids are there. And parents could start to focus on themselves and the relationship and then the kids—that's the order. 

And when we create that order, we actually create an alignment for the family. So I'm suggesting that you start by grounding yourself. You connect to yourself, and that, as I talked about in this episode, we want to see our children as individuals…? Well, we don't want to forget ourselves as individuals. So reinforce that individuality by grounding yourself. Find out what nourishes you. And find out how you can contribute to this family. 

In addition to reinforcing and connecting to yourself as an individual, you want to connect to your partner. I talked a lot about that in the episode because connection is so important, and you may not realize how important it actually is and the damage that it can do until it's missing. When we feel disconnected, we get angry, we feel isolated, we feel dismissed. So it's really important to think about the other side of that dialectic of, not just why we feel disconnected, but build up the connection that you feel with your partner. And that's the homework I gave Krystal and Burt. 

So this week, take a moment to root yourself in your daily life through connection. 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

And join us next week for my second session with Krystal and Burt to hear the results of incorporating connection into their daily practice. And we're going to address some concerns around phone usage and family meetings that go awry. 

You can subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts, and please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode, or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining me. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury