Krystal & Burt Part 2 of 3: When Your Tween Gets Their First Phone

When kids get their own phone there’s a big adjustment for everyone. And it doesn’t always go smoothly.  This is my second session with Krystal and Burt where we find out how they are doing and if they did their homework to find small ways to connect.  This session focuses on 12 year old Mat who gets in trouble with his phone and what parents can do when that happens.  We also focus on 8 year old Margo who advocates for her own needs which is in sharp contrast to Mat’s people pleasing tendencies.  The skills in this episode focus on communication, connection, consequences that are meant to be effective, seeing the positive intention and learning to surf the urge. 

Time Stamps

4:35 Never underestimate how a small change can have a large impact - small check-ins makes a difference to the relationship 

5:10 Kids possibly pick up on the marital tension 

6:16 When a people pleaser tunes in to their parents’ well being

8:00 We often feel emotional when we feel like we have been seen and understood

8:30 The spiral of disconnection - resentment, frustration,etc

10:10 Getting a  phone, losing the phone and the consequences

12:25 How to make a consequence work effectively: time matters

14:00 Use the phone and misbehavior as a learning experience 

• Teach about the way the phone games/apps are designed to keep you on it
• Have open communication to discuss his relationship with the phone
• Use a cell phone contract

19:30 Pros and cons DBT skill has 4 boxes instead of two (see resources below)

21:00 Discussion of being a “people pleaser” 

22:25 Its ok for kids to make safe mistakes at home

24:10 Use “Surfing the Urge” Mindfulness Skill to deal with impulses 

27:30 Giving a child a sense of control through “giving her personal power”

29:35 Talk about family meetings

30:30 See the positive intention when a child has challenging behavior - Validate the valid

32:40 How to communicate with a child who says what feels like “rude” comments 

• “This is not working for me”
• Role play other versions
• Choose timing that might work better than in the moment

The two kids can learn from each other - one is very considerate of others and the other has a strong sense of self and focus on herself

Leslie-ism: When you think there's a teachable moment, pause and see what you can all learn in that moment. 

Resources:  

Cell Phone Contract

Handout on Pros and Cons Skill from Dialectic Behavior Therapy

Video explaining how to Use Pros and Cons Skill from DBT

Leslie’s Blog on People Pleasing - coming soon

Handout on the DBT Skill “Surfing the Urge“ by Therapist Aid

Handout on Positive intention - coming soon

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:02  Krystal: I don't think he would sneak his phone. He's always very worried about being caught and getting marked up for having done something wrong. So it's against the rules, and he doesn't do it.

0:20  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Learning to live with a phone is a major adjustment: how to follow the rules, how to fit in with your peers, and how not to get sucked into the addictive qualities of screen time. And that adjustment can be a big deal for both the child and the parent; and many parents have concerns. So let's ask the question, What's going on here? What are the root causes of your child's relationship with technology? I'm Leslie Cohen Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster, just misunderstood. 

Today is my second session with Krystal and Burt, parents of eight-year-old Margo and twelve-year-old Mat, who recently got his first phone. Krystal and Burr came to me today with concerns about that phone. But like many parents, one problem is often interrelated with other problems. And you may discover a common thread among the many problems once you get curious and go below the surface. 

The goal of this session is actually learning as you go and accepting your kids for who they are in the moment. Rest assured, there are practical strategies for dealing with the phone, and kids who like to tell others what to do. 

So now, as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And although I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. 

So let's get started. 

2:14  Leslie: Hi Krystal, and hi Burt. How are you guys today? 

2:17  Krystal: Hi. We're great, thank you. 

2:20  Leslie: All right, so I think it's been about a month. I'm really curious to see what your takeaways are; I mean, I know you said—and we talked a little bit about it—the feeling of being on volume overload. And it made so much sense. So as we start today, is that where you are?

2:42  Krystal: You said to work on checking in. And we were very emotional last session, at least I was. And I think that we've taken that to heart, especially Burt. He's been really attentive, and he will do really, really kind, thoughtful things and say, “Just checking in.” And I've been a lot…I'm getting teary just because of it. [Laughter]

3:10  Leslie: Yes.

3:11  Krystal: There’s a lot of farm activities that I felt I was burdened with quite a lot last year. And Burt has really, really stepped up. And now I almost feel like I'm not doing my set of tasks, and that's fine with me, as far as the farm things go. But yeah, because we're checking in a little bit more and spending time trying to help each other out a bit more. And I do think that has helped things calm down between us. At least, I don't feel a as sort of walking on eggshells at the moment.

3:57  Leslie: Wow, that's a little bit of a reset and an amazing thing. Before I jump in—and of course, I have some thoughts—Burt, would you like to share a check in? 

4:07  Burt: Yes. So I guess, just as Krystal said, I think sometimes we do things, but don't necessarily verbalize it to each other and demonstrate that we were doing them. So I think it's not the fact that we weren't necessarily doing them. We were kind of doing them in silence sometimes, and just kind of getting on, because there's so many things to get done in the day. But I guess that kind of checking in, and your reassuring the other person seems to be making it, yeah, quite a big difference.

4:38  Leslie: So you feel it as well. 

4:40  Burt: Yeah, yeah.

4:41  Leslie: You feel the difference. Did it actually add to your stress?

4:46  Burt: Yes. It was very easy to add, with large impact.

4:50  Leslie: So an easy change with a large impact. And the little bit of attention to it, bringing some attention to this part of the relationship, of this checking in, made a big difference. So that is amazing. Now here's the million dollar question. Did it have an impact on the children? Did you notice any differences in their behavior? And we can't…it'll be a correlation—we can't prove causation. But did you notice anything?

5:25  Krystal:  I feel like…maybe not. What do you think, Burt?

5:30  Burt: I feel they've been a bit better. Mat, in the main I think was, has been better. Margo is always Margo [Laughter], she's kind of hard to influence. I think the interactions between them have been more balanced.

5:57  Leslie: Interesting. It's interesting that you point out that maybe it was just Mat who felt the impact a little bit. And before coming to our session, as I typically do, I review my notes and prepare myself. And one of the things that I reviewed was the fact that Mat is a people pleaser; is how you had described him in our intake. And as a people pleaser, he's probably tuning in to how the people around him are doing, so that he feels secure and safe and loved and all those things. So he tunes into the people around him. If he was tuning into you two, because he naturally does that, then there's a possibility he picked up on the activity and the intention that you two had with each other, to be there, to see each other, to acknowledge each other and connect. So that's really interesting. And even if we don't notice a direct impact, is there any reason to stop what you're doing?

7:04  Krystal: Definitely not, not stop. I think back back a month ago, and I was starting to feel a bit resentful, and so I've always been kind of a touchy feely, sort of, I love you, kissy person; but I've come away from that. And you telling us to check in a bit more has sort of encouraged me to revisit that side of things.

7:33  Leslie: I will say that when you got on just now this morning and explained what was going on, you said, “I was emotional and crying last session.” And now as you share this, this new development of these check-ins and being seen and feeling like you're connecting, you said it made you emotional as well. It's amazing how two sides of the same coin, that you can be emotional when you feel disconnected, and we often feel emotional when we feel seen and heard. 

Every single person on this planet has a need to feel seen and heard, and so it can bring tears to our eyes when we feel like we've been seen. Disconnection and connection are extremely powerful, and when we don't get it, we often misbehave, or it comes out in sometimes ways that aren't necessarily effective for the relationship. 

So when you were feeling disconnected, Burt, was there a negative spiral that…Okay, so Krystal, you were feeling disconnected—my guess is that made you pull away, as you just said. And Burt, did you feel that distance and feel frustrated or resentful, yourself ,in that month before?

8:53  Burt: Yes, I think there was some frustration. That's a good way of describing it.

8:59  Leslie: So you made some changes that bring some connection to the two of you without adding to your overload. I think that's key. 

Now, I think you came here to ask about some of the sibling rivalry and the differences in the children. Shall we move towards that? Or is there anything else you'd like to put on today's agenda?

9:22  Krystal: We've got all sorts of things. 

9:24  Leslie: Good, good. I love it. 

9:28  Krystal: I think one major thing that has affected Mat recently is we have limited his phone usage. He got it when he changed schools to secondary school. He got a phone for school usage, but we allowed him to have Whatsapp on there. And there have been some some issues with him overreacting at Swim Club in the lockers. So we decided that it was time to take the phone away as a result, until he gets on the bus for school. And so he's not playing his game much, and he's not being able to contact his friends quite as much. 

And for a while that was okay with him. He thought that his behavior in the locker room was not good and he decided that was fair as a result. And that was probably three weeks ago, or two weeks ago. As a result, he was really being very kind with his sister and getting on with his sister and doing everything he could to keep the peace. Now it's wearing off a little bit, and he's starting to act up again. How do you feel about that, Burt?

10:53  Burt: The incident at swimming, I think he was regretful about it initially. So I think he felt that the taking of the phone was in line with what what he'd done like, I guess. And they were behaving really well, and he was almost overly being nice to her, and maybe in order to get his phone back.

11:21  Leslie: That thought went through my mind. 

11:25  Burt: He's done that for a couple of weeks, and now the novelty of not having the phone is worn off. Which is difficult, I think it's a difficult balance with phones and technology, because they become so obsessed with it. It’s all or nothing, there's no dial on usage.

11:47  Leslie: What you're saying is a conversation that I think would be fantastic to have with him. There's a lot of learning here. One is that after his incident, he did not think it was good. He agreed and accepted the punishment, so to speak, of losing his phone—the consequence, let's call it that. And then he was acting nice, whether it was to get his phone back or not, it doesn't matter. It brought out that behavior, and now it's wearing off. 

So what that tells me is, if it was meant to be a consequence, in order for the consequence to to work, in order for a child to learn from it, it needs to be time appropriate. So if you take away a phone because you were giving him a consequence for his behavior, and you take it away for six months. After six months, does anybody even remember what the incident was? No, right? So he's basically showing you that, okay, it makes sense that you took it away from me for two weeks or three weeks. Now he's not saying this, but I want you to verbalize this with him. Now he's saying, “Okay, it's time to give it back to me,” making the punishment fit the crime. It might be going too long. 

So in terms of consequences, if it was a consequence, but I don't think that's the only reason why you took it away. I think that was the instigator to say, “Okay, I think there's a little bit of impact that the phone has on you that you're not aware of.”

13:26  Krystal: It's not just Mat, either. It's Margo. She doesn't have a phone. She's eight, and she is constantly pointing out when Mat picks up the phone and is screaming, “He's got the phone. I should have it. I should have something too.” And it's just this constant battle about audio visual.

13:49  Leslie: My heart goes out to all parents right now, because it is a very real frustration in terms of what you have to deal with. But let's use it as a learning device, too. So in terms of a learning device, you said, Burt, that it's this all-or-nothing kind of relationship with most people. There's not a dial on it. We don't just gently use it a little bit and then put it away. Its purpose, lot of the apps and a lot of the games and a lot of whatever you're doing on it is intended—the likes–-to keep you attached to it. So I would like to discuss that with him, and I would like him to experiment, if you like this idea, with how it actually pulls him in. 

So if you give him back his phone and say, “The phone has a lot of power to draw you in and keep you on the phone. Let's say that's its main purpose. The phone is like a friend, I want to be with you all the time. Do you think you can manage that? Because a lot of people have a really hard time managing that. It is a really hard thing to manage—we saw it already. What do you want to do if we give you back the phone in order to manage it? And we're going to watch, we're going to do this experiment to see if it's working or not. We're going to do check-ins every two weeks when it comes to the phone and have a little family meeting.” 

Did I ask you to have a little family meeting with them? 

15:29  Krystal: You did okay, and we did. 

15:31 Leslie: Good. I want to hear about that in one second. So bring this to the family meeting and say, “How do you want to start learning about it? And Margo, you want to start learning this now, because when you get a phone in your hands, you're going to be doing the same thing. As a matter of fact, Margo, it might even be harder for you to use it a little bit and not a lot, because your brain may like to dive in all the way.” So bringing it to them and seeing what ideas they have. Or maybe not a full family meeting, maybe just the three of you with Mat. What do you think?

16:09  Krystal: Definitely, yeah. What do you think? Burt, yeah.

16:16  Burt: I agree that we use it as an opportunity to remove it because we knew it was causing an issue otherwise. So it was opportunistic. I can see why it probably is resentful, but it, but I think we're just struggling to create barriers on usage of the phone, appropriate usage of the phone.

16:39  Krystal: We already had him sort of sign a contract that we found online with regards to usage. It's our phone contract. So it's our phone, and you get to use it type of thing. So, that's it. He signed it. He didn't necessarily take it all in. [Laughter]

17:06  Burt: I think he read it. 

17:07  Krystal: We don't want them to have iPads and phones upstairs, so we have them charge it downstairs or in a drawer. So we've done all that, but they still creep up with the iPad and the phone up to their rooms, and it's hard to…because we're not in the house regularly to keep a close eye on what they're up to on the phone and the iPad.

17:35  Leslie: Yes, of course. You know, when the cat's away, the mouse will play. So yes, I totally get that it's very hard to manage it. And I think it's great that Mat does understand that it's your phone and you have already taken it away. And the more we can take it away as a learning tool rather than as a punishment, so that he sees you're not angry on top of it… Because if we want to be sensitive to the fact that his learning is going to come from your dealing with him, because he's more tuned into you than he is to the phone, per se. 

So if you come at him with anger, when you take away the phone, like, “You lost the phone. You are not getting the phone!” and it comes with anger, then all he reads is the anger, because he's tuned into the people part. So if you come and say, “Well, it seems like giving you some space with the phone, it seems like you need a little time away from the phone. We're going to have a consequence of taking the phone and giving you an opportunity to feel what it's like without the phone again,” then it's about the phone. So we want to keep it about the phone, even though, again, as I said, it's really hard for parents to tolerate this all-or-nothing stuff with the kids and the phone technology, I really agree. 

So, giving him a chance again, discussing what he's going to do, pull that contract out again, and just keep asking what works and what doesn't work. Did it work that he had it on the bus? I would even say, “What were the pros of having it on the bus and what were the cons of having it on the bus? What are the pros of not having it on the bus, and what are the cons of not having it on the bus?” 

In DBT, we teach pros and cons, in I think a really clever way, because there are four boxes, instead of just the T graph of pros and cons. It's the pros and cons of doing that, or the pros and cons of not doing that behavior or acting on an urge. So he might learn, Well, when, if I'm on the bus, then I don't talk to my friends if I'm using my phone. Or when I'm on the bus,I get a chance to learn about my friends, what they're doing. And that's the important part that I want to stress, is that they learn about their relationship with technology, because that's a long process, and it's very good: Is he learning anything? 

So having some dialog around, “Okay, so when are you using it?” In the last three weeks, when did he use it? I think you said he had it on the bus and he had it at school. So did he ever sneak it at school when he's not allowed to use it? Or did he respect their rules about not using the phone? And wow, if it's true, how did he resist the urge to use his phone at school?

20:45  Krystal: He's always very worried about being caught and getting marked up for having done something wrong. He always talks about that. So I don't think he would sneak his phone. It's against the rules, and he doesn't do it.

21:05  Leslie: So again, there we see his people pleasing. Do you know you can teach him that that? Being a people pleaser has some great benefits. You follow the rules, you listen to authority, you do what you're told to do, because you don't want to get in trouble. And you want to please the other person. 

And of course, there's a negative side of that, because you're not paying attention to your own thoughts, needs and desires. So if he feels like he's always taking care of everybody else, he'll get tired of, Wait a minute, where am I in this picture? How come I don't get to get my needs met? And that's going to be a lifelong challenge for him.

21:49  Krystal: I think he is starting to go into that sort of, What about me?

21:54  Leslie: So, yes, at 12 years old he is hitting that mark of being in puberty and hitting adolescence. And his teenage years are about a little bit more of, Who am I? in this world and pushing back a little bit. So we want to honor both. So at home, he's allowed to make a mistake. He sneaks his phone. He may be on his phone when you're out on the land taking care of the animals or something. 

And so he's saying, here's something I want to do. We want to honor that, and we want to also hold the limits that you're asking him to hold. But it is good that he gets to practice making mistakes at home. Believe it or not, I actually think that's okay in safe ways. 

22:52  Krystal: It's funny because before he started going to the secondary school, we were looking at other schools and there were schools that we went to that allowed phone usage. And he didn't want to go to those schools because he didn't want to have his face in the phone all the time. And now suddenly he's one of those kids, and it's just an odd situation that we didn't really want to get into but we kind of felt our hand was dealt.

23:27  Leslie: Yes, and so the two things I'm suggesting is really let the phone usage teach you and him—that means communicate this—what that tells him about himself. It can bring a practice of mindfulness, where he can start to learn about the power of…addiction is too strong of a word…magnetism, or the pull of someone else or something else, like the phone, so he can learn about not giving into the urges. 

And that's a mindfulness practice of, I notice the urge. I notice I want to stay on the phone. I notice I want to go grab my phone and I'm going to surf that urge. So there are times for us to actually teach that skill. I did it last night. I sometimes I have a habit of scrolling right before bed. I don't want to be doing that. And so I felt the urge of, I want to do it, I want to do it, I want to do it. And I noticed it with my mindfulness of: the urge was there. And then I brought another part of my attention to say, I notice the urge, and I also know that reading my book is what will feel better to me in the long term. So that takes a long time to develop those skills, but you can start teaching that mindfulness of urges and mindfulness to being aware of what's going on with him. That's a great thing. 

So we've got the mindfulness to the urges and all of that. And that teaches about himself in terms of being a rule follower, people pleaser, and having his own desires; and then what's his relationship to a phone going to be—that's really tricky. So keep that communication open.

How's that as a first step: just keep talking about it. Everything's an experiment. Say, “Okay, let's try this for the next two weeks. Why don't we give you your phone in the morning and see if you can still get ready for school and get ready for the bus? Or let's try it when you come home and you get an hour on your phone or an hour after dinner.” Decide how you, together, what might be a first step and say, “Okay, let's experiment. Let's see how the next two weeks go with this one.” 

And I would go so far as writing it down. Just like we write down our bank statements, write down your relationship with usage, with technology. We're going to try having an hour after school. Does that sound like a plan, bringing mindfulness awareness, bringing understanding about how he relates to it, and then experiment with some specific behaviors that you can track?

26:14  Krystal: Yes, I think that that could be really good.

[Music: In the forest by Music for Videos]

26:22  Krystal: We'll have to try and have another family meeting, which, um… [Laughter]

26:41  Leslie: How'd the last one go?

[Laughter]

26:45  Krystal: I don't remember it going well, but specifics, I can't really say. Burt, do you remember how the family meeting went, specifically, more than me?

26:57  Burt: I think, in the main, it went okay. I think it was that Margo didn't necessarily want to stay present for the meeting.

27:06  Krystal: She was trying to go on to the sofa and the chair, and she's, you know, kept on voicing that this wasn't her… 

27:15  Burt: She wanted to host. 

27:17  Krystal: Yeah. She was the one that had the original plan in the first place.

27:22  Leslie: Oh, right, you said that. 

27:24  Burt: So, yeah, it's only a meeting if she gets to host and decide on the content. And the outcome.

27:32  Leslie: “...and the outcome.” Can we give her a little power there? Can we give her a little personal power to…

27:42  Burt: She takes her own power. [Laughter]  

27:45  Leslie: Yes, she definitely does love that. But giving her a healthy sense of personal power, like there is a facilitator to most meetings, right? There's a timekeeper, there's making sure everyone's getting heard. Would that be good for her to practice?

28:03  Burt: Well, I went in to say good night to her last night as Krystal was reading to her, and I was told to sit on the end of the bed and be quiet until it was my turn. So I'm not sure about giving her too much…

28:21  Leslie: Okay, but the irony is, there's research that shows an experiment that middle schoolers who were bullying—they actually put those kids who were doing the bullying—they created a role at some middle schools where those kids then became the leaders of the bully task force, where they were in charge of being on the lookout. So they now had to look for the very behavior that they needed to change. So if she's being very controlling with I'm-going-to-tell-you-what-to-do, she gets to be in charge of making sure everyone gets a fair voice and gets heard. So she's teaching herself by making sure it's happening in the family. 

So I might spend a little time with her, saying, “Okay, you didn't really want to do the family meeting last night because you weren't in charge. Let's go over what it means to be in charge of the family meeting. Your job would be to make sure everyone gets a fair turn to talk. You might say, ‘Oh, we have a talking stick.’ And you might pass the talking stick around. And then you might say, they can't talk more than five minutes. A person can't talk more than five minutes.” 

So she would have her timer to pay attention to, which gives her a little control to watch the time. And then at the end of the five minutes, it's her job to say, “Thanks for sharing. Now we go on to Mom, and Mom's going to share her ideas.” So it teaches her how to actually share the stage, so to speak. And she might not be able to do it right away. When she said, “Dad, you sit on the end of the bed and you wait your turn,” what I like to do when a child does that—because, of course, you have steam coming out of your ears because you're getting so frustrated—what I like to do is see the positive intention in that. What I mean by that is, what is inside her telling you what to do. Where is there some positive intention? Can you guess on that?

30:40  Burt: Well, she wants the attention afterwards, and probably one-to-one complete attention.

30:46  Leslie: So she wants one-on-one attention. First she's got Mom, and then she wants you to stay there and give her attention. Are there any other positive intentions underneath her telling you what to do?

30:58  Krystal: She feels empowered.   

31:04  Leslie: She feels empowered. It's so funny. You've got the split between Mat and Margo, where Mat is so tuned in to the other people in his life, the people around him. And Margo is like, “No, it's all about me. I'm going to tell everybody what to do.” So she doesn't worry about pleasing you. She's like, “I'm going to tell you what to do.” So it's cute that they both can learn from each other. 

And once in a while, you say, “Oh, Margo, you get to learn a little bit about the other person from Mat. And Mat, you get to learn about how Margo really has a voice to her own desires, thoughts, and wants.” That doesn't have to happen right away, but Margo does need practice in dialectic thinking. 

So what I see in her, the positive intention of her telling you what to do, is the two things that you just said. One, is she is making sure she has both of your attention; and the other is that she lets you know that she's a powerful person and she's practicing her personal power. And I want to say, “Hey, Margo, I love that you're practicing your personal power. So I'm going to name what I think is positive within that action. I'm going to validate the valid, as we say. So I'm validating that you really have a voice, and what you want, and it doesn't really work for me to have you tell me what to do. So maybe you can say it in a different way that works for both of us.” So what would she need to say that actually lets you know what she wants without controlling your behavior? Can you think of a way she could say that and you can help her learn that?

32:58  Burt: I guess it would be more explaining that she wants time with Mom now. And would you mind coming back after you brushed your teeth or something like that?

33:07  Leslie: There you go. So that took you a minute to think of that. So for a kid who's got a lot of, probably, impulsivity and energy and power and passion in a way, it might take her a moment to come up with that. And so what comes out sounds very different. It sounds, “Sit there on the end of the bed until I tell you. When Mommy's turn is over, then you get to have time. So it's just a matter of, again, slowing down the process, giving her a mindful moment and asking her to say, “Hey, is there a way you can say that, that works for both of us?” And as I say that, I put out my two hands and I say, “Is there a way you can say what you want that works for both you and me? Because what you just said doesn't exactly work for me, and I know what you want. I know you want my attention, and I love that. How can you say that so that it works for both of us without controlling me?” Do you think that's going to happen in one-and-done? No, you're both shaking your head. You're going to need to do this a few times, right?

34:11  Krystal: I mean, if Mat was to speak to Burt the way that Margo does sometimes, and I think Burt wouldn't have time for that, and he would be cross. And when Margo is quite rude, sometimes he takes it and and which is, which is nice. But it's giving her an over-embellished sense of power. And she sort of treats all of us like that, but more mostly Burt a lot of times. And so, I think trying to address it and in a respectful manner, rather than us getting cross with her, would be really helpful; trying to get her to sort of frame it in a different way,

35:18  Leslie: Beautiful. So what you said—I want to reinforce that—is go gently or with respect. Having an easy manner is part of our GIVE skills, which I talk about a lot. You want to have an easy manner with kids. Because when we come in really intense about even labeling it as rude. Notice I didn't label it as “rude.” I said, “This is not working for me.” It's a gentler approach. I'm not shaming her, I'm not labeling her. I'm saying that's just not working for me. 

Because the truth is that behavior is effective in certain settings. I'm sure the Army talks like that. “You're going to sit there, you're going to sit there”—that's the way the Army talks. I remember a situation where someone said to me, “But this is the way I talk at work,” because at their workplace, you had to be really blunt, really direct. So there was a lot of rough and tough kind of conversations and language at their job. And then the wife—I'm sitting there doing couples therapy—and she goes, “I can't take this. It feels abusive.” And when he said, but this is the way I talk at work,” it's like it works in one setting. It doesn't work in all settings. 

That's why I talk about the positive intention. And what's valid inside of that is the fact that she has passion. She knows what she wants, she says what she wants. I don't want to get rid of that in her. That's a beautiful skill, but it works in some places and it doesn't work in others. And as you said, we can teach her to understand the nuances of it. 

So, Burt, Krystal’s noticing that it happens to you a lot. Is this something that feels helpful to you?

37:04  Burt: Yes, I think just maybe changing the way I deliver it to her. She doesn't like to be corrected. So as soon as you…so I'm just thinking about what you're saying to say to her…it is sometimes kind of her way or the highway, and this-is-how-it's-being-done. She's very black-and-white, that there is no middle ground. And I'm just thinking about how you verbally, can…she quite often just disagree. You know, if you say, “This isn't working,” she's more likely to say, “Well, tough.” I think that's why I'm accommodating of her, because I know that she has issues in that way, so I don't get angry with that situation. 

I almost find it funny that she's so blunt, and I don't mind bluntness. But I think it has an effect on the family, because me being accommodating for her is probably offensive to both Krystal and Mat, because I think Krystal maybe has some jealousy that I'm more accommodating to her than Krystal. And Mat definitely picks up on the fact that I'm more accommodating to his sister.

38:28  Leslie: Okay, when you said you're accommodating her, and it feels like it's working—it may be working. I think one of the other things I was going to say about bringing this up is: we can't bring it up every single time she says that. That would be difficult. If I'm a loud speaker, and my husband, every single time I opened my mouth, he said, “You're loud, you're loud, lower your voice,” I mean, I'd go nuts if he corrected me every single time. I would just go nuts, even though it may be true that I need to pay attention to it more often or all the time, even. So one is, we want to have that general approach, which is, we don't want to hit someone over the head with it all the time. Second, someone like her, who is feeling this impulse and saying it and being strong about it, timing may be very important. 

I don't know, Burt,  if there are any times you're in the car with Margo alone. You can say, “Hey, Margo, can we role play something? Can we take a moment and role play what happened last night?” So you make it lighter, and now she's in a different state of mind when she's saying it, and she might very well practice it with you. So there's a difference between being in the moment and using it; and first learning the skill in a safe, quiet, non-stressful situation. So that when you're driving you practice, “You know you said, “Daddy, sit there and wait until Mommy's done’?” And say, “Okay, now let's role play it again. Or maybe I'm going to be you and you see how it feels. I'll play you. I'll do it once, the way you did it, and then I'll do it again, another way that I think may feel better to both of us.” So consider the timing, that in the moment may not be the moment to do it. 

40:29  Burt: I think that would work a lot better for her, because she can be quite sensitive; and she's very thoughtful, but in a totally different moment in time.

40:39  Leslie: Exactly, and she may not actually change this behavior until a little later in life. She's got to have time to learn this. But I do want you to work on it for the next ten years. So you're working on it with her, and it's not just rolling over and being like a puppy and surrendering. You're actually saying, No, I am going to find an effective way to deal with this, which, in the moment, I can either get up and walk out and say, I'll be back in a moment. That's another way of dealing without making a scene: “I'll be back in a moment.” She just told you to sit there, and you're like, Well, I'm I'm going to have my voice, I'll be back. That's one way. 

So there are definitely ways of non-verbally doing it, and then come back to it at another time when you can actually get her consent to work on this problem, which is fantastic. 

Why don't we wrap up there? Keep doing what you're doing with the connection between the two of you.And start really watching how that impacts the kids, because I think in the long term, it absolutely will have an impact on the children, no if ands or buts. And then try some of these strategies with the kids. 

41:56  Burt: Perfect. 

41:58  Krystal: Thank you so much.

41:59  Burt: Thank you very much. 

[Music: Flowerpot by Olexy]

42:07  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Parents are often looking for the teachable moments. They want to fix things, they want to teach their child something. And they think that's their job, and I get it, because we do have a job of being parents and raising children. But I lean towards learning as you go, rather than teaching your child. Teaching our children means we have lessons in our mind, maybe expectations that come from society and that probably come from our own childhood. Now that sounds wonderful, but I think it can actually be dangerous because it blinds us or puts blinders on us to seeing what's actually happening in the moment, and learning to react to what is happening rather than what we think is happening. 

So my suggestion is, learning as you go means showing up to the present moment exactly where your children are, where you are, and finding the lessons right there. There are going to be plenty of lessons that you can cultivate, that you can harvest from those present moments of learning as you go, rather than teaching your children and infusing the lessons that you want to infuse. 

Obviously, I'm not suggesting all-or-nothing thinking. I'm saying, let's lean towards or let's start to bring in some of the learning as you go philosophy that you and your child can learn together. I talk a lot about in this episode, use the challenges. Use the controlling child who wants to take over the family meeting, or the child who's using their phone in ways that are not the best for them. These are things that you can learn together and engage your child in the process as well. 

The other thing I wanted to point out is that parents often feel—another way that parents feel like parents—is that they feel like if they punish their child for misbehavior, then they're in charge, that their child will learn another lesson. And I want to say that, yeah, it makes sense to find a punishment that fits the crime, so to speak. But what we learned here is that your children have some wisdom. And it was so interesting that Mat was upset with his own behavior, and he knew that he had done something wrong, but he was upset with his own behavior, and he knew that three weeks of not having a phone seemed adequate, seemed fine, and we saw some positive changes in Mat's behavior. But after that, Mat started to get angry and resentful. 

So what's really important is that parents tend to over-punish rather than letting the consequence speak for itself, and engage with your child. Finding out: is your child actually learning the lesson you want them to learn, which is that they didn't get their phone.? So the idea that Mat was able to give himself a consequence, he knew something was wrong. He was upset with his own phone usage. That's the consequence. That's where he learns. 

But when the punishment is exaggerated or is too much or too intense or too long, then children learn to be angry and resentful towards you, and you become the problem, not the phone. Let's remember to engage our child in the process, because when you find out from your child what they think the consequence should be, you might see what kind of child you have. Do you have the child that's too hard on themself? Do you have the child that's too easy on themselves? Or do you have the child that just, you know, it's sort of just right consequence for the behavior? And remember: when you think there's a teachable moment, pause and see what you can all learn in that moment. 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

Join us next week for our final session with Krystal and Burt, where we explore how Margo's recent ADHD diagnosis is impacting the whole family. And you can subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. Please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining me. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury