Bonus Episode: Managing Car Rides With Kids

Kids fighting in the car is a common occurrence and is often a headache for most parents.  This is a mini-bonus episode where Leslie and her producer Alletta Cooper discuss a number of strategies to help kids sit with discomfort, learn to deal with boredom and maybe along the way have some time to daydream - a way to exercise a valuable part of the brain.  Screens and phones are not on the Do-Not-Use list but rather are understood for ways in which they too can be helpful. 

Time Stamps

2:15 The arrangement strategy - rearranging the kids 

3:12 Acknowledge that screens are not good or bad

• For the short term it works - kids are quiet
• Can you modulate the length of time that kids are on screens

4:10  What’s missing when your kids are on screens

• Learning to tolerate discomfort, differences and boredom
• Missing the opportunity for daydreaming
• 6:10  The creativity, the connection and the inventiveness of making up games

6:49 Kids in the car are a captive audience and often use that time to talk 

7:42 Pulling Over Strategy - a non-threatening strategy

10:25 Kids can learn that they have a lot of power when it comes to the fighting with sibling

11:35 The Ticket System Strategy - this system teaches children its safe to make mistakes

13:50 Consequences not punishment - non judgmentally

14:40 Payback System Strategy - based on the concept of community service 

16:30 Books on tape, family reading - again as a captive audience

17:25 Plan Ahead Strategy

17:45 Mindfulness Skills of Observation - paying attention to what is around (DBT skills)

18:28 Check in with yourself and ask “am  I capable of tolerating this now?”

Leslie-ism:  Give your children the gift of daydreaming time

Resources:  

Is My Child A Monster? Episode 14 Skills Focus on Apologies with Special Guest Dale Rubury - Leslie Discusses the Payback Concept

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury.  A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support to make this possible.

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:04  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Hi, and welcome to a bonus mini episode of, Is My Child A Monster?, where we reinforce parenting skills. I'm Leslie Cohen Rubury, and no, your child is not a monster, just misunderstood. Today, we're talking about what to do when your kids fight in the car. This topic came up at the end of my last episode with Krystal and Burt in a segment that we ended up cutting.

0:31  Krystal: When they're fighting in the car. I would say, “Is this working for you? This seems to be out of control.” But I never get what I'm looking for.

0:43  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: It's such a relevant topic because it's happening in cars everywhere, so I wanted to take the time to talk about it in more detail. So my producer, Alletta Cooper, is here today to talk about riding in a car with kids. And as a reminder, this show is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention.

Hi Alletta.

1:06  Alletta: Hi Leslie. I am so happy to be here. Sibling rivalry in the car was a constant headache for all of us.

1:13  Leslie: Well, what happened? I'm just so curious what happened in your household.

1:17  Alletta: So, I have a younger sister and a younger brother and we took a lot of car trips. We had one of those station wagons where the back folded up so there were extra seats. And if the three of us were sitting in the back seat, we would be just at each other, just poking each other. We really liked if one of us fell asleep, to put things in their ear, up their nose, french fries, especially, so that someone would wake up yelling. It was miserable. 

So my parents’ primary strategy, other than like, don't make me pull this car over, was to separate us. So one of us would be in the front seat. This was before they had the airbag limits, weight limits. One of us would be in the front, one of us would be in the back seat with a parent and a dog. And one of us would be in that third seat in the way back with the other dog, trying to keep us from having access to each other. But we still managed to, you know…french fries make excellent projectiles. 

2:11  Leslie: Yes, and seats are not really big barriers. So I love the idea that your parents tried a strategy. They tried the arrangement strategy—let's rearrange the kids. And I bet today that's still being used, where parents will sit between the two children, and then you just become the vehicle for them going back and forth. So yes, I love the idea of arrangements. And I know what Krystal and Burt said —hey've tried things and things aren't working. 

So let's take an opportunity to talk about some of the strategies that do work. Because you said arrangements, and you said pulling the car over, but it sounds like it was always the threat. “If you keep fighting, I'm going to pull that car over, or else.” Let's look at some effective strategies for what could work well. 

3:04  Alletta: Because I can tell you that threat was not effective.

3:06  Leslie: So here's how we make that strategy work, and we make some of the other strategies work. But first, I do want to acknowledge that, right now, parents use a lot of screens for their kids. I want to acknowledge it, because I don't want to consider anything as good or bad. We want to consider: guess what? Screens make sense. There's a reason why people are using screens. Kids have their own phone. They're quiet. For the short term. It works. So we're not going to say it's good or bad, but we're also going to look at what's happening when they are using the screen and what might be missing during that time. 

Number one, we can think about the amount of time. So if you're going on a car ride, do the kids spend the entire time on their screens? Maybe you can modulate how long you spend on screens, so that there's a little bit of…get away from the all or nothing thinking, but you actually get to use it a little bit. The other idea is that what's missing when your kids are on screen. What are the things that you're losing out on? And what we're often missing, which is interesting, is that they're not learning how to tolerate discomfort and boredom. You guys fighting with each other, it was a clever way to deal with the boredom, right? It’s not boring when you're fighting with your siblings. 

And so we think that it's bad that our kids are fighting, but they're actually figuring out that they are bored. They're figuring out that they're uncomfortable, and that information is important. We don't want to smooth out the road so that kids have no struggles. The car rides are the struggles, the ones in life that are safe, that are no big deal, and we want to help our children handle those struggles. 

So, tolerating differences, tolerating and navigating that discomfort and boredom. And then there's a last thing, a last benefit that I want to point out, which is the opportunity for daydreaming. Do you know that we have a shortage of daydreaming in our society?

5:18  Alletta: I do. And I think it's happening with kids and with adults, as we just get sucked into our screens. The amount of time we spend with ourselves is so limited,

5:28  Leslie: And people often think that daydreaming is a waste of time. 

5:33  Alletta: It's not. It's a creative process. 

5:34  Leslie: It is a creative process. It is a really important time to let a different part of our brain activate, which ends up pulling it all together. 

5:45  Alletta: So it’s an important time for processing and problem solving. Even if you're not actively thinking through something so many times, just sitting with your brain, all of a sudden an answer will pop in, or some new idea will pop in. 

I do want to say something from the perspective of a child who grew up with rambunctious siblings in a car with no screens. We were fighting a lot, but we came up with a lot of games together. We were constantly inventing ways to entertain ourselves, and my memories from those road trips were really about what we did when we were bored, that wasn't the fighting,

6:22  Leslie: So again, what we are missing when they're behind screens is the creativity, the connection, and the inventiveness of you guys making up games. I think that's fantastic. 

So let's talk about even those short car rides where you're taking the child to swim lessons, because that's where Krystal and Burt, in the last episode, were talking about such frustration; these kids seem to fight all the time. Number one, you do have a captive audience, and if you talk to parents whose kids are not on screens, they often say that's the time when, even though you're right there in the front, the kids start talking about very private, intimate things. Whether they're with a friend in the back or whether with their sibling, they actually have an opportunity to talk about things. And for some reason, they don't realize you're in the front seat, overhearing the whole thing.

7:11  Alletta: I absolutely did that. It was as if being in the back seat with some kind of magical bubble that my parents couldn't hear. And they got a lot of intel from the carpooling I did with classmates.

7:24  Leslie: Absolutely. So again, if they're on their screens, you're going to miss out on that. Again, not one or the other. We can find time and ways of bringing both of these things in. 

So I have a few different systems that I use. The first one is about pulling over, because that's the one you mentioned. Pulling over is not to mean be a threat. It's to be an awareness and giving information to the kids that: I am noticing as the driver, as the parent I'm noticing that I can't tolerate the fighting. So I would say I'm going to pull over, because this is now interfering with my ability to drive safely. No punishment, just say it. And then I pull over, and I get out, and I say, I'm not going anywhere. It's not a threat of leaving you. I'm not threatening anything. I'm pulling over and giving you guys time to work it out, and when I hear that it's quiet in the car, I'm going to get back in and we're going to continue on to swim lessons. We're going to continue to your friend's house. We're going to continue to your aunt's house. 

So keep in mind that the best time to try this is when you're actually going someplace where they want to go. The first time I usually try this is I want them to be motivated to get to where they're going. And so let's say they're going to their friend's house, and being a little late is okay, but they're motivated to go because they want to play. That's when I'm going to pull over again, not threatening. Just say this is not working for me. And I get out of the car and I wait. Now, I may come back in the car and they may start up again. Okay, I pull over again. Parents don't understand if you put the effort in two or three times, it's not really going to happen again, because the next time after the third time that they start fighting, and you say, “Looks like I need to pull over to help me drive,” they say, okay, okay, okay. And they stop fighting on their own. 

9:25  Alletta: It sounds like that's about the emotional regulation of the parent, so it's no longer a threat. It's for my own well being and for the safety of everyone in the car. I'm going to stop the car so I can take a moment and emotionally regulate myself while you all work out what's going on before we continue. Which is a great thing to model also, and I personally think that's an excellent thing to model around driving safety as well; that if you are emotionally dysregulated or something is really distracting or stressing you out, to stop the car. I think that's an important lesson.

10:00  Leslie: Absolutely. So that's one of my go-to ones, and it becomes very effective after one, two, or three times, because they don't want to do that. And the parents mentioned in the part that we had to cut—that the father and the son were very sensitive about being late—and so they would get very, very upset, because being on time was very important to them. 

So if your child is going somewhere, I'm going to let my child know that they actually have a lot of power to control the fighting. Because, as we know, it takes two to tango. If I say to Mat, who is the son in the last episode, if I said to Mat, “Hey, Mat, I'm going to pull over,” and he screams, “But I don't want to be late,” then I'd say, “Then find a way to disengage from this fight. Sit quietly, ignore your sister, and I'll be able to come back in and drive.”  Because I will say, “I can actually tolerate your sister going off. But it's the two of you going together that is too much for me. So if you pull yourself out of it, you've got the power to get me back in the car to drive.”

11:03  Alletta: And it also helps kids and adults, as they're working through this with their children, prioritize what values are the most important. And if you are in the car fighting and getting the last word in is more important than being on time, well, that's teaching you something. But if being on time is the most important thing, that teaches you ways to regulate yourself in order to meet that value.

11:28  Leslie: And that's just really good learning. So let me go on to another system I have. I developed it with my kids, called the ticket system. The ticket system was often, again, when we were going someplace that they wanted to be. So for some reason, I remember doing this a lot when we would go to my sister's house. My sister's house had a pool. It was always fun. They were all excited. So I would give the kids, I think, five tickets. They were paper tickets, index cards or whatever. And I'd say, “In order to go in when you get to Aunt Joanne's house, in order to go in and start swimming and playing in the house, you need at least”—now, this is where I can vary it—”you need at least one ticket.”

12:17  Alletta: Is this five tickets per child?

12:21  Leslie: Yes. So you each get five tickets, and you only need one ticket in order to go into Aunt Joanne's house. Now, as they learn the system, I might up it, and I may say you might need three tickets to go into the house, but I'm going to give my child room to make mistakes. I always want to let them know it's safe to make mistakes. So we go along, I can tolerate some mistakes and some fighting. And they go and I say, “Okay, Dale, Carrie, I need one of your tickets.” And what would happen is they wouldn't give me their ticket. And I'd say, “It's okay. You can hold onto your tickets, because I have a great imagination. I can remember how many tickets I gave you and what number we're on.” So even though you may give them the paper tickets, you're going to use the system whether they give you the ticket or not. And they know as well how many tickets they have. 

13:10  Alletta: So, fighting costs a ticket. 

13:12  Leslie: Fighting costs a ticket. And so if they fought and I'd say , “That's one ticket.” I don't have to say anything more than that. I can just say that's one ticket. They might start yelling at me. I'm not going to engage. They can be upset that I took away a ticket. And once in a while, it happened where Dale would lose it. Typically it was Dale—unfortunately, she had a hard time in cars. But Dale would lose her tickets, and I would say, “Okay, no problem. You earn that one ticket back when we get to Aunt Joanne's house. We have a five-minute payback before you go in or before you go in the pool, and then you'll be able to go in.” So I didn't over-punish.

13:52  Alletta: It sounds like what you're also teaching here, and what you are doing as a parent here, is not punishment, but consequences. 

13:57  Leslie: Yes. 

13:58  Alletta: And it sounds like you were approaching it non-judgmentally, where it's just you get these tickets, this is how you earn or lose a ticket. And there's no choice in doing that. And my taking a ticket is not punishment. It's a consequence for what you're doing. And also, by the way you approach it, without anger, without judgment, it is not causing additional distress. You might perceive it as such, as a sensitive child, but you are not adding to the inflammation within the situation.

14:36  Leslie: Right. Then there was my payback system. So let's jump to my payback system. And that is when we're in the car. There's no consequence right now in the car, but there will be a consequence later. So again, sometimes one child has more sensitivity, and being in the car with their siblings is really much more difficult for that one child. So this would be something I would do with Dale. If we were coming home from the grocery store, for example, and she was making it difficult for us to communicate and just have some quiet time, I would say, “It seems like you might owe me some time, Dale. Because it's family time in the car. So you'll owe us family time.” It's the idea of community service. And so when we get home, I'd say, “You are welcome to help me bring the groceries in.” And bringing the groceries in was a way of paying back to the family, if we had to tolerate her mood and her discomfort and we had to listen to it. Then she would pay back the family in this community service concept of bringing in the groceries, helping me carry the groceries in, or some other payback later, or some other community service later.

15:55  Alletta: Talking about payback, you actually went into this in detail in a Season One episode with your daughter Dale, when she came on. It's Season One, Episode 14, skills focus on apologies with Dale. And part of that was the payback system within the family. There's a great story in there, actually, about car rides and other amazing examples. So we'll link it in the show notes, in case you want to go back and have more detail about that specifically.

16:22  Leslie: Super. So there are games, there are books. There's nothing wrong with bringing books in the car. And, believe it or not, I do it all the time with my grandkids. When I've got books in the car and I start reading, they start listening. I don't ask permission, believe it or not. I mean, I'm waiting, I'm looking for their buy-in; but sometimes asking them, kids say no so frequently. So start it. And if there's another adult in the car with you, you and the other adult can start listening to a book on tape. Those are things that, if you encourage it, if you do it, they tend to take the bait, and they tend to come in and join you.

17:05  Alletta: That was a big strategy in my family growing up. Before a road trip, we'd all go to the library and pick out an audio book together. And there's an app called Libby where you can do that if you're registered with your local library. And that really helped.

17:19  Leslie: Oh, I forgot to mention: plan ahead. You just said, Alletta, about going to the library. Planning ahead can be asking the kids, “Hey, what do you need for this car ride? What are you going to focus on? What are you going to be mindful to? I wonder if you can be mindful to all the license plates. Or how many red cars you will see?” 

So it's also a great time to practice some of Dialectic Behavior Therapy skills, like noticing sights or counting all the things you see, all the things you hear. These are all really good mindfulness exercises to help you distract from other emotions, which might be boredom. 

So I want to repeat two things. One is doing nothing is really healthy for their daydreaming, imagination, creativity—so don't forget that. And the second thing is that if they're doing nothing, or if they're on their own, the determining factor as to what to do and how much you can tolerate is not how loud they are or how intense they are. It's really checking in with yourself as the parent to say, Am I capable of tolerating this right now? If your vulnerabilities are so high because you're tired, you're hungry, you're exhausted, guess what? That's a great time for screens, and it's okay to acknowledge that, and there's no good or bad, or I shouldn't be doing this, or I should be doing this. Just give yourself permission to check in with yourself and tolerate the discomfort of their fighting or whatever, when you're capable and giving yourself that permission

19:00  Alletta: A learning experience for everyone. 

19:01  Leslie: These are all opportunities. Go home and try these things. 

Alletta, thank you.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

19:07  Alletta: Thanks for having me, Leslie. I always love joining you and talking about these skills. And we have lots of links and resources in our show notes. We'll link to everything we talked about, and you can find those show notes on our website, ismychild a monster.com, where you can also subscribe to the newsletter and find transcripts of this and every episode. And you can also subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. And please rate and review and share it with a friend to help spread the word.

19:36  Leslie: And join us next week for our final session with Krystal and Burt, where we explore how Margot's recent ADHD diagnosis is impacting the whole family. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining us. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury