Krystal & Burt Part 3 of 3: When One Parent Worries and The Other Parent Doesn’t

Here’s the scenario:  Your 8 year old child just got a formal diagnosis of ADHD in addition to the dyslexia diagnosis.  Your 12 year old son is also neurodivergent whose behaviors include humming, interrupting and fidgeting. How does a family learn to get along with all of these differences which create tension in both the children and the parents. In this third and final session with Krystal and Burt, Leslie works directly with the parenting differences…Krystal expresses her concerns about Margot's future, while Burt remains optimistic. The skills focus on mindfulness, validation and communication in order to “get along”, and learn to live together.

Time Stamps

3:35 The benefits of giving a child with ADHD the “job” of time management

5:00 Medication Trial for ADHD - pros and cons

8:59 The worrisome questions of someone with ADHD

15:10 When avoiding problems, you might be making your problem worse

15:45 Asking for what you need when you know you want to be heard.

17:25 Learning to speak each other’s language 

18:55 Making sure your child understands their diagnosis

19:45 When someone is not understood and seen for who they are, they may misbehave- example of being left handed and being singled out.

20:22 If you figure out your different and different equals bad, then you call yourself “bad”

21:30 Explaining brains when you're trying to explain a diagnosis to a child

• Discussing neurodivergence with affirmative language

25:48 When parents have opposite perspectives.

• Be who you are and take a giant step towards the other person
• You can still be positive and validate your child’s concerns

27:39 When you validate someone’s worries - the worries may actually decrease 

30:41 Role Play example of validation when someone uses BUT instead of AND

32:50 When the environment (school, home) may or may not support the neurodivergent person

34:36 Description of neurodivergent differences in the family including ADHD and Autism

38:00 Description of Stimming Behaviors

40:10 Family meetings can create a positive circular loop in which understanding leads to connection, and connection leads to greater understanding.

• Family meeting can name the tension between neurodivergent types 
• Family meeting can engage the kids in the process of problem solving
• Understanding leads to empathy, consideration and tolerance

43:25 Description of misophonia and mindfulness skills to treat it

Leslie-ism: To reduce conflict start with communication and end up with connection

Resources: 

• Resources on Neurodivergence Neurodivergentinsights.com
• Dr, Liz Angoff”s website Explaining Brains - full of resources
• Dr. Liz Angoff’s website

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music<

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:03  Burt: I try to turn things around to a positive rather than get tense about something that I just don't feel you can change it. If that's how she is, that's how she is, and she'll find her own way and what she wants to do in life. So that's my view on it.

0:21  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Burt has a very positive perspective on his daughter's ADHD; and her mom, Krystal, has a lot of worries. It can feel like those differences are in conflict, but it's important to look at situations from as many different angles as possible. Then we can learn to see the value in both perspectives. I'm Leslie Cohen Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster, and neither are you. 

Today is my final session with Krystal and Burt, parents of 12-year-old Mat and 8-year-old Margo. Between Session Two and today, Margo was formally diagnosed with ADHD, and the family is now adjusting. Krystal is not the only person in the family with concerns. Margo's list of questions is fascinating and gives us insight into how she's processing this new information. 

The major themes in all of Krystal’s and Burt's sessions have been communication and connection. Those themes are equally important in discussing neurodivergence in the family. 

So now, as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. 

So let's begin. 

2:05  Leslie: Hi, Krystal. Hello, Burt. How are you guys today? 

2:09  Burt: Good, thank you. 

2:11  Krystal: Busy, as usual. 

2:12  Leslie: All right, so I'm really curious as to how the last few weeks have gone for you.

2:17  Krystal: There's been a lot of change and happening with the kids recently. Margo had her assessment on the nineteenth of May and was diagnosed ADHD She's already got dyslexia and, likely, dyscalculia diagnosis And that sort of got the ball rolling for…I kind of made an executive decision to start medication; and she's been on it for just over a week. And a day or so ago, I had a meeting with her head teacher, her teacher, and the special educational needs counselor all in one meeting to discuss what could happen with Margo, to help her along her way in school and to see how she's responding at school, having been on the medication for a week.

3:23  Leslie: And do they see any changes with the medication? Or do you see any changes? 

3:28  Krystal: Her teacher said that she seems a lot more attentive and getting to task easier and following direction more. And she's given Margo a special task of organizing the week by putting stickers on a chart to indicate to the other children what's happening in the week and what's going on. So that's something that she really, really struggles with, is time, and the appreciation of where the days are in the week, and where everyone is in the month, and this and that. And so having this specific task is, I think, phenomenal that the teachers put that in.

4:15  Leslie: I love that. And what it reminds me of what we talked about in the last session. We were talking about the family meeting, and you said that she loves to be in control. And I said that's okay, let's give her control, because she'll tend to manage her time and everyone else's time in an appropriate way, so that she actually learns time in that important role. But I love that the teacher is working with her strengths to help her in the areas that she needs developing. Wow, great. And Burt, do you see any difference at home?

4:52  Burt: Yes. We were a bit hesitant initially in Margo starting the meds—we were obviously reading side effects. A lot to take in. But almost immediately when she started them,, a lot more attentive. You ask her to do something, and she'll do it the first time. I can't see any negatives so far of starting the medication. And it was fairly brisk. It was very quick to come on, so as soon as she went on them, she, just seemed to pick up quite quickly.

 5:26  Leslie: Well, that's one of the pros, or the positive benefits of usually ADHD medication, not all of them. What is she on? 

5:37  Burt: Ritalin.

5:38  Leslie: Ritalin, okay, so that medication, and that class of medications is, when it's in your system, it's working. When it's not in your system, it's not working—it doesn't stay in your system. That's good to know, and that you're seeing that. How has she reported feeling on it?

5:55  Krystal: So, before she started the medication, I sat down with her and pointed out the things that she might be feeling by starting it. We had a, what's called an in a day off—an inset day—and so I didn't want her to be feeling nauseous or headachy or anything like that before starting it. So I wanted to start it while she was at home, so I gave it to her, and she was aware of the things that could positively happen and what could happen negatively. 

In reporting back, she doesn't have any of those side effects. She's certainly got plenty of hunger and she's sleeping well. I'm not sold on the on whether she's coming, coming off the drug around dinner time, but we've got hunger, we've got tiredness. And we've got brother making awkward noises and generally trying to set her off. But I felt like, over the week, that we've had some interactions that have been more heated than previous. So, the drug is wearing off.

7:15  Leslie: I think that's a really good assessment and really good observations on your part, because that does happen. And I have heard parents report that coming off the medication there might be some irritability, or she might feel it, even though it's not that clear when she's coming off. So keep an eye on that. 

And if you know that's going to happen, you might give her a little more support at that time. You might intercept the time when Margo and Mat are together at that time, and make sure that she's more around you. You might use that time to connect to her, so that it reduces the chance that Mat and Margo might get into some tension around that time. So that's good observations, and I think it's really important to help her understand. Does she understand what we're helping her with and her diagnosis?

8:17  Krystal: I've not really sat down with her specifically and talked about ADHD. She has some classmates that struggle with it, but they're boys, so they're generally hyperactive and needing a lot of attention that way. So I don't really know. 

She's been saying a lot of things to us over the last week and a half. It started off with, “Am I going to be able to live with you forever?” Before she was taking…I can't remember, Burt, do you recall when in line it came…

9:02  Burt: It might have been in line with taking medication, potentially. 

9:10  Leslie: And what is she concerned about?

9:12  Krystal: We didn't, sort of, question it too much. She, just in passing, asked if she'd be able to live with us for as long as she wants. And then it was another time when she suddenly decided she wants to be a model. And then she said, “You don't have to go to college to be a model.” Or she's asked, you know, such and such, “Would I have to go to college?” And so I'm just, I'm concerned by those comments and questions. And Burt sort of says I overreact and dramatize everything. 

9:50  Burt: No, no, I said you connect the dots, was my phrase.

9:54  Leslie: So explain that a little bit more, Burt, what do you mean you see that Krystal connects the dots, is what you said?

10:02  Burt: So, just because something presents like that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. You know, everything that's said to you in life, you can take in a good or a bad way, can't you? I think lots of little girls potentially want to be models. They don't all become models, but I guess you don't need to ruin their dream at this stage in life. So if that's what she says she wants to be at this stage, that's fine by me. But I guess I just don't worry about it right now. She's only eight, and I think she'll come along her own path and decide what to do. 

But I feel that Krystal gets a bit too pent up about it. And, you know, she'll say one thing, and then she'll say another thing, and then all of a sudden, it catastrophizes the situation, potentially.

10:54  Krystal: And I can see Burt's point. Just like, growing up from, um, toddlerdom or whatever, Margo never said she wanted to do anything in the future. She refused to say that she wanted to have a job at all. And so her commenting suddenly that she doesn't want to go to college, that she wants to live with us forever, and perhaps wants to be a model, I was connecting the dots and thinking that emotionally, maybe she thinks she's not capable of more. And I don't want her to be in that mindset.

11:33  Leslie: So I love that you said you could see Burt's point, and that you might be feeling a bit anxious in terms of the catastrophizing. Maybe it feels really, really big inside of you. So understanding his perspective and validating both sides. So there's truth in the idea that maybe, now that she got this diagnosis or going on medication, maybe she thinks there's something wrong. And there's truth in the possible perspective that you're catastrophizing or making it a bigger deal, when it could be just a passing comment. 

I love the idea that we can take both perspectives, bring it in and work with both sides. So here it goes back to the connection between the two of you, having your child get the diagnosis, have the evaluation, go on medication, hearing these comments to me, that's okay. It might strike up some worries, some unknowns for parents. So that's where I'm like, okay, in the privacy of your own home or in your own bedroom, when you two are not around the kids, do you support each other, listen to each other and validate each other's point of view, when something new, when there's new information? So did you connect over this or does it feel more tense? 

13:02  Krystal: Tense. I haven't even really been able to sit down and talk to Burt about the school meeting. Unfortunately, he couldn't go, with work responsibilities. And I've just been unable to speak about our bits and bobs with regards to what's happening with Margo.

13:28  Leslie: Okay, so that's understandable, and it might be really hard for you guys to find two hours to sit down, read reports, go over everything. But instead, you might have little check-ins, those two minutes. “Hey, I have a lot on my mind as a result of the school meeting.” That comment right there is just enough to create a little bridge. Burt, you're very busy, you're doing things; and the way you're feeling, Krystal, where at least you have that connection, that he might know that you have a lot on your mind as a result of it. 

Yes, It takes a little time to sit down and work on it. But I also want to take the time pressure off that everything needs to be figured out in the first week. This is not going anywhere. This is going to be an ongoing thing. And the sense that it becomes pressure, when you feel, “I have to have this conversation, or there's a lot going on and I don't know what to do, and we have to deal with this.” So can you take a little bit of that pressure off of yourself and give yourself the time and space to have the conversations, to connect about it, and to let your systems digest all this information.

14:48  Krystal: Whenever I'm putting something forward, I don't feel validated in my assessments of the situations. So I tend to try and avoid,

15:09  Leslie: So, I call that making your problem worse, because I get it that you may not feel validated. That's problem number one. And then by saying, “Well, I'm going to avoid,” that becomes problem number two. Because we're making it worse when you avoid. You may feel worse as a result of the avoiding. And so I love the idea of asking for what I need. When I know I want to be heard, because I have a husband who when he hears what I have to say, he's probably going to go into fix it mode, or he's going to give me some other information. And this idea that I just want to be heard is not his MO—he doesn't typically just validate or reflect back what I'm saying, which is really all I'm looking for sometimes. So then I get to say, “Hey, I'm going to say something. I'm just looking to be heard.” So I'm stating my intention of why I'm bringing this up. 

“So would you just repeat back what I just said?” Now, it sounds like, why would I have to tell somebody to do that? Well, because they are their own person, and they may hear it and go off in ten different directions. So if I'm looking for something very specific—and that's validation—I want to name it. Have you ever asked to be validated? Just say, “I want to be heard. Can you repeat back what I say to you?” Have you ever tried that?

16:45  Krystal: I feel like potentially, I've maybe mentioned it once or twice, but I haven't been really…

16:53  Leslie: …gung ho on that. Okay, Burt, how would you feel if she said that?

16:59  Burt: I mean, I'd be fine with that. I often ask Krystal to repeat things back to me, just to make sure instructions are followed.

17:07  Leslie: And does that work for you?

17:11  Burt: Yes, because otherwise the instructions aren't followed. 

17:15  Leslie: She may have heard it differently. She may not have heard the importance of it. She may not have heard the same thing that you said. So repeating back…and basically now we're talking about speaking each other's language. We're trying to understand that…Krystal, you have said in the past that you also have very similar ADHD behaviors and a mind that's similar to Margo's, right? Okay, so you're nodding your head. So if that's the case, you both want to learn together how to communicate. Does that make sense?

17:55  Krystal: Yes. I've got some phone numbers for sort of family coaching help that will go on locally. So I'm hoping to sign on to some of those programs that are available in the area, so that we can get even better and work together a bit better as a family, continuing to work better as a family.

18:23  Leslie: Love that. And what I'm hearing is that, Burt, you have figured out something that works for you. That, to me, is a strategy that makes it effective, so you're not getting frustrated. You're giving information and then asking to have it repeated back. That would be a great strategy to do with Margo as well. 

There are lots and lots of strategies to help with ADHD. A lot of mindfulness is needed. But this helps me circle back to helping Margo understand this diagnosis, which I think is very important for her. So, if you were left-handed and you saw everybody else using their right hand, you would definitely think: there's something wrong with me. So if she's in a class where everybody sits down and…

19:14  Krystal: Burt is left-handed.

19:15  Burt: Yeah, I’m left-handed.

19:17  Leslie: How did that…how did you feel growing up. Burt? That's very funny. How did that feel? Did you ever have that moment where it's like, Is there something wrong with me, or did someone explain it to you?

19:30  Burt: So, the teacher used to try and force me to put this little device on my pen to make me hold it the right way. And I used to throw it across the classroom, so it didn't go down too well. 

19:42  Leslie: Oh my god, that is so amazing. So when someone is not seen and understood for who they are, they misbehave. Your teacher was trying to get you to do something. Was she trying to be helpful, or was she trying to change your handedness?

19:56  Burt: No, she was trying to get me to grip my pen correctly with my left hand. I guess I probably didn't like being singled out with this rubber thing on my pencil, so…

20:10  Krystal: He's also tone deaf as well.

20:13  Leslie: Okay! And when you figure out that you're different, if different feels bad, you call yourself bad. You think that there's something wrong with you. And that is one of the things we want to really pay attention to for Margo, because when you are born a certain way, you are not broken. You were born-left handed. You weren't broken. You just use your left hand, it’s your dominant hand. And so probably, like you said, it wasn't about using the device to help you write. It was about singling you out: now, you have to be different from your peers. 

But if that teacher had taken her time to say, “Hey, you're writing with your left hand. There's something that can make it easier. Do you want to use something that might make it easier?” All of a sudden, it's how we introduce things, because children have their interpretations. And if we don't say something, I'm worried about the interpretations that they are going to come up with, as opposed to helping them understand what is actually going on. 

So, earlier in my podcast—I think it's in Season One or Season Two, I forget—I had Dr. Liz on my podcast, who talks about explaining differences to children. Explaining Brains is her website, and she has such wonderful resources for how we talk to kids about their different brains, whether it's an autistic brain, an ADHD brain, dyslexic brain—all of these fall under the category of neurodivergent brains. And so I love the fact that you're going to get some support with those other groups, but also do a little research on how to explain things, which is for her and for you guys. And that way, it addresses, Burt, the worry you have that Krystal might catastrophize it and make it bigger than it is. 

This gives you something really concrete to help explain it. Say, she's thinking, “Oh, okay, so if I am ADHD and I take medication, there's something wrong with me. I can't go to college. I have to live at home, and I'll be a model, whatever. Sure, those are all choices for you, and there are definitely other choices, because having the brain you have doesn't stop you from doing anything you want.

22:48  Burt: Yeah…So we had a similar situation the other day. She was basically asking, “Can I have all your money when you pass?”

[Laughter]

22:57  Leslie: Where’d she get that notion? 

22:59  Burt: So I discussed it with her, and I said, “Yeah, sure, you can have it.” And then she was asking about whether she'd have to split it with Mat, et cetera. But then I brought it back to the fact that, “But you won't need it by the time you get to that stage, because you'll have done something and figured out what you want to do in life and become successful yourself.” 

So I think I try and when I engage I try and turn things around to a positive rather than get tense about something that I just don't feel you can change it. If that's how she is, that's how she is, and she'll find her own way and what she wants to do in life. So that's my view on it.

23:33  Leslie: So, Krystal you may have felt this way at some point when you didn't understand the challenges you may have been having growing up. But as myself, I'm ADHD. Never been diagnosed formally, but I know I'm ADHD. I know I have dyslexia—again, not formally diagnosed, but it's very clear. And I struggled in school, and I wondered if I was bad or stupid. The idea that you're being very positive about it is a wonderful, wonderful thing, because once you understand, neurodivergent conversations and language helps us see that this is not about being broken. This is about diversity in minds.

The fact that minds and people have diverse brains and they do work differently, and that sometimes the neurotypical is what society sort of speaks to. So if society is when you go into a store and there's only guitars made for right-handed people, I assume guitars are made differently, or golf clubs, or whatever things that are made for left handed people. You go into the store and you say, “Well, there's no left-handed tennis racket,” or a golf club or whatever it is; then you think, Well, there is something wrong with me, because I don't see it. So the idea is that we need to help her see that there are differences, and yes, you may feel different. 

Going back to what you said about being very positive for her, I love that. And what I'm seeing is that, Krystal, you might get anxious, a little bit, about what this might mean, the challenges she might have, and that might come from your own experience—I don't want her to suffer or struggle. And, Burt, you might come from a different perspective in your life, which is, no, we're going to make it work and it's okay, and we're not going to see this as a roadblock. And so you come from maybe opposites, one's more positive, one's more negative, or just worrisome. And what I often suggest with parents is: Be who you are and take a giant step towards the other person. 

So Burt, it is so great that you can sit down with Margo and give her that cheerleading, “Yeah, you can do whatever you want, and you won't need that money, because you're going to be doing just fine. You're going to figure out what you want.”  Very, very positive. At some point, she might want to know that you know she's worried about, “But what if I don't know what I want to do, Daddy? What if I don't have money in life?” And you can say, “I get why that might be a worry for you right now.” So you can still be positive and validate the worry that she might be carrying around. 

26:28  Burt: Yeah, I understand that. 

26:30  Leslie: And Krystal, I hear you say that you feel like sometimes Burt doesn't validate you. He might just not be validating you because he wants you to be more positive. So I'm suggesting that you can have an optimistic, positive outlook and still validate, because when you validate, you're not saying, “Oh, you're right. There's a chance you may never know what you want. And you're right, you may never make any money. You're right, you may never…” It's not agreeing. 

With validation, it’s just saying “So you feel that way right now. I get it. This is new information. Of course, you don't know what your thirty-year-old self is going to look like, or your forty-year-old self is going to look like. And I'm excited to see your thirty-year-old, forty-year-old self. I am thrilled to see what happens.” So, you can be very positive in the way you speak with her and support the worries that she may have. You're both nodding your head.

27:27  Krystal: I think Burt thinks that she doesn't have these worries and that I'm reading into these things. That’s what I interpret it as.

27:37  Leslie: So if you take a giant step towards the other person, especially for you, Burt, then Krystal's worries may actually reduce. She may feel, Now I have someone who hears me and understands. Now I can let go of my worry. Sometimes when a worry is validated, it takes the wind out of the sails. It's like, okay, no big deal. I don't have to hold on to that worry because no one understands that I'm worried about it. So sometimes validating someone else's worries or concerns actually reduces them. 

[Music: In the forest by Music for Videos]

28:31  Krystal: I know with listening to all these things and reading all these things, that with ADHD comes a lot of anxiety and emotional issues. So I'm trying to stay aware of what comes out of Margo's mouth. And it worries me into this emotional ball that I'm sort of building up behind Margo. I get concerned about all these things, I'm worried that she's going to come into this anxiety about how she's different. 

Like, she had to go to a doctor's appointment with me yesterday, because I'm trying to get referred for an assessment. And she heard me talk to the doctor about how I struggled as a kid; but at least she sort of heard, yes, I struggled, and I've come out of it, so it is possible. But I just feel like everything in the world today is so much more sort of fast and she's getting so far behind with, say, maths, that she won't be able to sort of gain ground unless we get some things in place quickly in order to bolster her path.

29:53  Leslie: Okay…

29:54  Burt: I think I'm the opposite, and I believe that most of those things will be taken over by AI, so I don't see the need for them. I think being personable is probably a strength. So, I look at it from the other side of the coin. 

30:12  Krystal: She’s very personable. [Laughter]

30:14  Burt: She is. And the point of being able to, you know, kids are forced to do maths and english and science. If you can't do maths, it doesn't mean you're going to be doomed to sleep on the streets—you just can't do maths. Someone at a computer will do it for you. You can talk to Google and ask it a question.

30:34  Leslie: Okay…

30:35  Burt: It's just not needed, except to pass an exam to get to a certain stage within your life. So that's my viewpoint.

30:41  Leslie: So we just heard exactly what we're talking about, which is, there's your concern, Krystal, and there's your optimism. Burt. Okay, now, Burt, would you experiment with me and just repeat back Krystal's concern? Because I want to make the most of both of your ways of being. So just for a moment, can you repeat that back?

31:07  Burt: So Krystal's concern is that, academically… 

31:12  Leslie: Speak to her,

31:14  Burt: So I hear your concern, Krystal, and it is that if we don't intervene academically, she will fall behind her peers, and I can appreciate that. But it's not …I'm not concerned about that, overall. Can I add that on the end? 

31:30  Leslie: No, no, no—put a period. Don't do the but, don't add the but. You had Krystal’s attention there, and then the but is like, “Yeah, but…” Krystal, what did you hear when you heard that, until up to the but?

31:49  Krystal: I could hear the but coming. 

[Laughter]

31:54  Leslie: You heard the but coming. So that means you know each other well. You may keep hearing the but, so it might take practice. I really want to point out the fact that you two want to work on this together, because it is so important to acknowledge the challenges, and it is so important to be optimistic and encouraging. We really need both. We really, really, really want both. So I'm going to leave that for a moment and say, Okay, you guys have work to do on that. We've talked about it. You have work. I've named that. That's great. I think you can go off and do that. I have a lot of faith in you two. 

The other piece is the reason why someone might, with ADHD or dyslexia or dyscalculia, may feel broken or may feel like they can't do something because the environment is asking them to do something in a way that doesn't work for them. So it's circumstantial. If she was growing up on a farm, but she didn't get to go to school because there was no school, she would be out there tending to the animals, moving her body all the time. And she may not show the same disability that she does in a school setting, where we say, okay, you are going to learn math and you're going to learn a language and you're going to learn this and you're going to learn that, and we're going to do it sitting at a desk. That may not work. And so then the environment that we put her in is, “Wow, this doesn't feel good. I'm not working. My brain's not working. I can't sit here and think because my body is being told to sit still.” So we do really, really need to understand that the environment could be causing some of the stress and sense that she's had that's not working for her. 

But the benefit now is that there are strategies out there, and we want to be able to give you strategies to your daughter, and say, “We just got to give you the tools, and if you're struggling, that means you don't have the tools. That doesn't mean there’s something wrong with you and you're broken. You just want to learn how your brain works and where are your strengths.” And yes, her strengths are in being personable. So keep reminding her of her strengths, and keep supporting her in the area of, “When you find a challenge, we're going to help you find a strategy.” We don't want her to feel shame that she's different. It may come with the territory. It may come with the territory, though,

34:36  Krystal: I feel like we're a family of neurodivergence, personally, and and so we're really dealing with…everyone in the family, I feel, has a lot of tendencies towards the divergent side. So it's hard to negotiate and weed our way through these obstacles because we're dealing with so many different things. We've got a son that makes awkward noises, and then a daughter that pounces on these noises and they flare up. And Mat can be very insensitive with the way he speaks to his sister. And under his breath, she'll do something odd, and he'll say, “Oh, you really do have ADHD.” And so we've said something to him about that, and hopefully he stops. And so that's the sort of situation we're dealing with.

35:44  Leslie: Burt, can I ask you that question about neurodivergence? Do you see the family in that same way?

35:54  Burt: We all have our own different tendencies towards things. So Matt is, yeah, I mean, he makes funny little noises. He's always kind of humming along.

36:09  Krystal: And his teachers are always talking about how he interrupts in class. And he's always talking, and this and that. 

36:17  Burt: He’s improved on that hasn't he? He was always an interrupter and would want to offload his information early. But as he's grown up, he's been able to control that. He's a picker, so if there's anything there to be picked, he'll pick or shred it. And yet again, he's trying to, as he's grown older, in most respects, control the urge. But he does have odd little tendencies, you would maybe say.

36:49  Leslie: We could call them “odd tendencies” and make him feel like he needs to get rid of them. Or we can teach him that he is neurodivergent, and I would actually maybe throw a party for your family. We are the neurodivergent family, and celebrate this neurodivergence. But if he can understand it and grow up with it…I'm not assessing him, but I would offer you the idea that his humming, that his hand movements, that the interrupting, are all part of possibly an autistic mind. 

37:27  Burt: Yes, I think he's mildly autistic.

37:29  Leslie: So there are levels of autism, and it's not “mild,” it's Level One versus Level Three. Level One just means he needs less to support him so he doesn't need communication needs. He can socialize, so that the needs he has are less than Level Three. He has low needs, we’d call him.

37:51  Burt: He's very sociable, very academic, very personable. So it doesn't…whatever he's got doesn't affect him adversely.

38:00  Leslie: Have you heard of stimming? 

38:02  Krystal: I've heard the word.

38:03  Leslie: Stimming is a repetitive behavior, a need to repeat behavior over and over again, and it's often…spinning is classic for stimming behavior. Waving their arms around. Humming is a repetitive behavior. And these things are soothing—very, very soothing—to the nervous system. So we don't want to take it away, because that's bad. But we may want to adapt the behavior. 

I just went to a DBT conference which was for people with all kinds of neurodivergent brains and for the professionals. And I looked around the audience, and I would say fifty percent of the audience had fidget toys. They actually gave us fidget toys before we went into the presentations. And I just looked around and I smiled, because there were all those people in the audience, that we respected, that needed a fidget toy while they're listening. 

So we just want to let him know that he might need some fidget toys to help with the stimming or the humming, if you know where and when he can do that, that it doesn't disturb his fellow classmates. And the idea that he blurts out and he interrupts…again, that is just, I have a thought, and I want to tell people my thought; because it's like a computer, it's like the pop-up notifications. We can turn off the notifications, but if you tell your computer to give you information every time you want a New York Times update, it's going to interrupt you with notifications. Well, that's all he's doing. He's giving you an update that his brain has a new thought. 

39:43  Burt: So we got him some fidget toys this week after he shredded a blanket. So we're on with that. I think the issue is that it's when the two neurodivergents clash, isn’t it? So we've got one child that doesn't know he’s humming, then will start humming. Then we've got one child that is sound sensitive. When you've got those two in the same place at the same time, and you add into the fact that they're hungry at dinner time…

40:07  Leslie: Now we're circling back to the family meeting, which means we want to connect to understanding. Once we understand, we have a greater connection. If we need a connection, then we need greater understanding. So there's a really positive circular loop there that understanding leads to connection, and more connection leads to greater understanding. So in a family meeting, we might say, “Okay, Mat, one of the ways that your system feels better is by humming. So you are actually taking care of yourself when you're humming. Hey, Margo, did you know that that works for his system?” And then I would do the opposite, I'd say, “Margo, do you know that you are sound sensitive, and when you go to loud places, you might bring headphones, or you might get overwhelmed and get really upset by loud noises. Or when you hear Matt's humming, it might be difficult for you.” 

“All right, I need you two—now that you understand that this is the way your brains work and what works for each of you—now we're going to come up with some what we call solutions. We're going to problem solve. We're going to be creative. How do you want to solve it? Margo, do you want to throw out five ideas? And Mat, can you throw out five ideas?” 

And you know what? For the next 10 years, they may not solve the problem, it may drive them nuts, but the fact that they understand each other is going to lead to empathy and consideration and tolerance. I don't expect to see it immediately, but we're teaching and we're creating an environment that says we are going to tolerate the diversity in this family, we are going to work with the differences, and we're going to respect the differences. 

And between me and you, I'm not going to expect that they're going to make these changes, and everything's going to be copacetic tomorrow night after the family meeting. So we're managing your expectations, because I get it: it's going to be frustrating. And yes, there is a clash of neurodivergent ways of being. 

42:19  Krystal: We just had this idea this week, that we would try and be better at sort of prompting them before we head into an area where we were going to clash and do the preload thing. And that's something we're going to try to start implementing as well. So I think that could help as well.

42:44  Leslie: Yes, you can have lots of different ideas. Maybe Margo wears little earplugs or earphones to dinner so that she can tune out some of the noise, or that she comes to dinner five minutes late, so Matt can have an opportunity to hum for a few minutes at the dinner table before she comes over. I'm just making these ideas up. 

You're both laughing, but it is about also learning to be comfortable in an uncomfortable situation—it's called misophonia, people who are highly sensitive to sounds—they may have to practice incredibly strong mindfulness skills that, when they are eating dinner and they hear someone chewing, they may have to learn there are ways, they can put in earphones. They can play music so that they can learn to be mindful to the music and unmindful to the chewing sounds. 

Mindfulness—I don't have time to go into it today, but—mindfulness skills are just brilliant strategies to help people deal with their neurodivergence and deal with some of the things that may be challenging for them.

44:01  Krystal: It's our plan to start putting in some mindfulness practices.

44:07  Leslie: Great. It doesn't have to be very big. It can be a small awareness of, “Can you be mindful to your chewing instead of mindful to his sound?” I’d put a ball under her foot. “Can you be mindful to the ball under your foot at the dinner table?” Maybe everybody has a ball under their foot for different reasons, and they are keeping the ball under their foot while they're eating, so that they are being mindful to choosing what to be mindful to and being unmindful to the things that are more difficult.

44:49  Krystal: That sounds interesting.

44:50  Burt: Yeah, but again, it's a plant balls.

[Laughter]

44:56  Leslie: Then we have a problem with the balls. Yes, I get it all right. Okay, do you feel like you have a little bit more understanding of how to help her down this path, and really helping yourselves understand your family?

45:09  Krystal: Yes.

45:10  Burt: Yes. Thank you very much for the guidance today.

[Music: Life Journey by Music For Videos]

45:17  Leslie: I know I sound like a broken record when I talk about mindfulness and validation. But I don't mind sounding like a broken record, because they are so important in building the lives we want with our children and for ourselves. So I just want to repeat that mindfulness is important because it actually is the backbone of the DBT skills, the Dialectic Behavior skills that I so often talk about. It's the mindfulness, it's the awareness of what we're doing, where we are and what we need, what strategies we need, that make it so important. So you get why I talk about mindfulness over and over and over again. 

Validation is so important, and I talk about it over and over again, because it improves our relationships. It's like a magic wand. When you are in an escalating conflict, we use validation to de-escalate it, so that the damage is not done. And validation saves that damage to relationships, so it improves our relationships. It also is so important because it helps us feel better about ourselves, and we can get validation from ourselves or from other people. 

Validation and mindfulness are two things that I talked a lot about with Krystal and Burt to create the strategies that they needed in parenting. But there's something else besides the specific strategies, and that's a framework. The framework is your parenting perspective, what you believe. It's your values and it's your philosophy. It's that scaffolding that holds it all together. In other words, it's your understanding of what you're doing when you raise your children. And to quote Krystal, “There's a lot going on, and there are many layers.” 

I agree with Krystal. Throughout these three sessions, what we did is we move from conflict that they came with—within their children and in themselves—we move from conflict to connection to communication. 

So I do want to take a moment now to thank Krystal and Burt for having these three sessions and volunteering to be on the podcast and share their trials and tribulations. So thank you to Burt and Krystal. And now, as they go back into living their lives, or that as they continue to live their lives, they can look at the neurodivergence and the communication that we talked about in order to build a foundation of connection so that we don't end up in conflict. So we take that conflict connection to communication and we turn it upside down, and we start with communication, leads to connection so that we don't end up in conflict. 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

And join us next week to learn more about DBT strategies like mindfulness that you can apply to your parenting and day to day life to help manage the overwhelm we're all feeling right now with DBT expert, Dr Kiki Fehling. 

You can subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts and Please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining me. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury