Kevin & Scott Part 1 of 3: When Parenting Feels Like A Sea of Chaos

As parents we can probably relate to Kevin and Scott who describe family life as chaotic.  They are parents of two neurodivergent boys, 7 year old Gavin and 4 year old Arthur.  Its clear in this episode that these parents have done their homework and tried to help their boys and their family life but the frustration and uncertainly are ever present. Leslie works with Kevin and Scott to assess and understand the other important ingredients essential for effective parenting.  This episode focuses on feelings and concepts such as compassion, insecurity, shame and grief.  And together they that look at what happens when rewards stop working.  

Time Stamps

3:10 Where do parents begin when trying to make sense household chaos

5:05 When parenting with strategies designed for the neurotypical child doesn’t work as well with the neurodivergent child

5:59 Grieving the child you thought you would have

• Comparison to other children or other families
• Acknowledge the child you have

8:08 An example of making compassionate statements to each other and to themselves

11:20 Island of compassion in the sea of chaos

Description of the morning "chaos"

14:15 Teasing can be “playful connection’ as well as the hurtful

• Parents can reframe the behavior from a negative to an alternative interpretation

17:10 Rewards -  how to make them work and why they stop working

• Change them often
• Intermittent reinforcement works very well to establish a behavior
• Don’t work harder than your child
• Keep the small and specific

24:08 Problem Solving Skill from DBT  - focus on the brainstorming step

26:14 Raising your child to understand who he is, the impact of how he shows up in the world, and the areas that he might need to work on.

26:30 Strategies to help someone with ADHD: 

• balance boards and movement
• Fidget toys
• Drawing and doodling

28:20 Dialectic dilemma: The tension between when do you need to accept the moment as it is and when do you need to change it day

29:15 Dialectic Dilemma: Is this the parent’s problem or is this the child’s problem. Whose problem is it?

29:55 Two acceptance strategies:  compassion and taking a breath

Leslie-ism: Take a moment to celebrate the effort you're putting in and the small successes along the way.

Resources:  

A book about Behavior management strategies: Don’t Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryon

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury.  A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support to make this possible.

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:03  Leslie: Has it felt like there has been the need to grieve the child you thought you would have?

0:09  Scott: I don't know if I grieve the child per se, but grieve some of those experiences, if that makes sense. I mean, I've tried to reframe it in my head and don't try to make it something it's not. I don't know if I'm always successful with that.

0:31  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: So often we talk about the joys and challenges of parenting. What we don't talk about nearly as much is the grief that comes with it. When we grow our families, there are changes, and inherent in change is loss: loss of self, loss of who you thought your child would be, loss of what you may have imagined your family to look like. And grief is a natural response to that loss. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury, and this is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. And no, your child is not a monster, and neither are you. 

Today we meet Kevin and Scott, parents of two neurodivergent boys. Both seven-year-old Gavin and four-year old-Arthur, are diagnosed with ADHD. And Arthur recently received an autism diagnosis, as well. As Kevin and Scott share their struggles with parenting, you may notice their uncertainty about how they're doing as parents. Things aren't as smooth as they expected, and they feel a bit out of their depth. 

This is also where the grief comes back in. Kevin and Scott have done all their homework. They've done so much research about parenting and neurodivergence, and unfortunately, it hasn't translated into a whole lot of confidence. So today, we discuss some skills directly related to helping manage the kids’ behavior. And possibly more importantly in this family, we work on skills directly related to the uncertainty that Kevin and Scott are feeling. 

Lots of parents are dealing with the insecurities around their parenting choices, and I want to reassure you that if you're here learning about how to be a more effective parent, you're already ahead of the curve. 

Now, as a reminder, all the names and identifying information have been changed. And though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. So let's get started. 

2:52  Leslie: Hi, Kevin, 

2:53  Kevin: Hi, Leslie.

2:54  Leslie: And Hi, Scott. How are you today? 

2:55  Scott: Hi. I'm good, doing well.

2:57  Leslie:  All right. So, I am eager to hear what brings you in today, to find out what's going on. So I'm going to let you guys start.

3:06  Scott: Oh, where do we begin?

[Laughter]

3:09  Leslie: I'm going to stop right there, because that's a very common question or statement I hear from parents when they come in: “Where do I begin?” So let's acknowledge that you've already been through a lot, and just begin by taking a breath and whatever pops out of your mouth is perfectly fine. We'll start wherever you are.

3:30  Kevin: Well, we have kind of a chaotic household, I guess is maybe one place to begin.

3:36  Scott: Yes, they're both very active, and they tend to…there's a lot of conflict between the two of them.

3:42  Kevin: I was just going to add: both of them are neurodivergent. Gavin has ADHD, and Arthur also has ADHD and was recently diagnosed with level one autism.

3:55  Leslie: Okay, so let me repeat that. Gavin has ADHD. Arthur, who's four, the younger one, has autism level one and ADHD, 

4:05  Scot: Yep.

4:06  Kevin: Correct. 

4:07  Leslie: Okay, and you did all of that through neurological testing? 

4:14  Kevin: Yes. 

4:15  Scott: That's correct. 

4:16  Leslie: Good. Was that helpful to you to understand some of what was going on?

4:19  Scott: Oh, absolutely, especially with Gavin, when we started seeing things we thought weren't typical. So we had suspicions that there was something like that going on for a while. And then when we finally had him evaluated…well, that was, we're on a waiting list, so that was a process. It took about a year. So we were struggling with some things in the meantime. So it's been very helpful to kind of have an idea of what's going on and know where to look for resources and that sort of thing.

4:50  Leslie: Excellent. So at this point, you have a little bit more support than you did when you started out. Was it confusion in the beginning, like, What's going on here? Did you think, We don't know what we're doing? 

5:06  Scott: It was very, very stressful; just because we both had done a lot of reading and tried to educate ourselves to be good parents, but none of the sort of usual tactics were having much effect for us.

 5:21  Leslie: Okay, so you were supposed to parent the typical child, but your typical child was neurodivergent and had ways that you needed to particularly understand them. And my guess is, not only was that confusing before you got a diagnosis, it's equally confusing now—would that be true?

5:40  Scott: Absolutely.

5:42  Kevin: At times, yes,

5:44  Leslie: One of the things I think about is: things are the way they are, and accepting things the way they are. So let me take a moment to ask you: Has it felt like there has been the need to grieve the child you thought you would have, the child that might be easy to parent, the child that sits down and plays quietly and eats dinner and you have this lovely fun conversation? Most parents have, even if they don't know it, they have an image of what they think their child's going to be like. And when their child isn't, there's some grieving. Have you thought about that?

6:23  Scott: I have, certainly. I don't know if I grieve the child per se, but grieve some of those experiences, if that makes sense. But there's definitely things like that that I've…I mean, I've tried to reframe it in my head. It's kind of like you're saying, just, you know, this is the way they are. This is how it is. Don't compare, don't try to make it something. I don't know if I'm always successful with that.

6:53  Kevin: Yeah, I think there's definitely been some of that for me, too. I don't know if I would have verbalized it that way, but I definitely think that's part of what can be triggering for me sometimes. Especially like Scott just said, seeing other families and how they interact differently from our family, and it's hard not to compare ourselves to those other families, sometimes.

7:17  Leslie: It's so hard. Before you had children, you had a comparison in your head that you didn't even realize existed from your childhood, from seeing families around, from society. And it's not easy. So a lot of compassion for the fact that when you compare, it could upset you. 

And my recommendation, in order to be there for your children, in order to be there so that you're not making it harder on yourself, is to, one, acknowledge the loss or the change or the difference of what you thought or what you expected to the children you have. And then after we acknowledge it, with a lot of love and compassion. Do you know how to do that?

8:10  Kevin: I'm not sure.

8:11  Scott: Yeah.

[Laughter]

8:14  Leslie: See? I can't skip over that step! What does love and compassion sound like, to say that to yourself? All right, so I'm going to ask you to make a statement to each other. So Scott, would you make a compassionate statement to Kevin, understanding how he may feel? And then Kevin, would you reverse that and say something compassionate to Scott? Let's start there.

8:38  Scott: So, Kevin, I know you work very hard to be a good parent. Things don't always go the way we think they should, but I think you're doing the best you can, and I think we are doing a good job. I think you are doing a good job, even if it doesn't look like what we thought it would look like.

8:59  Kevin: Thanks. And I would say the same thing. I see how hard you try every day and how much you've grown in the last couple of years working at all of this, even though it hasn't been easy. But yeah, you're doing a great job as a dad. And I'm lucky to be here doing it with you.

9:23  Leslie: Okay. I see that you're both nodding your heads, which means it probably feels validating to hear someone share some compassion with you. Now, the next step: self-compassion. Kevin, we'll start with you. Can you say something to yourself similar to what you just heard? It's usually easier for us to give compassion to other people—that's why I started there. So now, can you make a similar statement? Acknowledging compassion has two steps: acknowledging the pain and knowing that you don't want to be in pain. You'd like to be out of pain like we all do. So compassion is just acknowledging those two parts. Go ahead.

10:09  Kevin: This is really hard, and even though I make mistakes sometimes, it's okay to make mistakes. And everybody makes mistakes like that. And keep trying, keep doing what you're doing.

10:21  Leslie: First of all, that brings me to tears. And yes, that was beautifully done. How’d that feel? Do you do that much?

10:27  Kevin: Sometimes; maybe not as often as I should.

10:30  Leslie: Okay. So maybe when that comparison pops up and you see another child and you compare yourself in those moments, just to acknowledge the pain, because it's there and that's beautiful. Great job. Okay, Scott, your turn. 

10:50  Scott: It's…it is hard. It's a difficult job. It doesn't look like what we thought it would look like seven years ago. But I'm trying to work hard. Just like Kevin, I've made mistakes, but that's okay, trying to grow and learn and be the best I can be for both the kids.

11:12  Leslie: So, those are your islands of compassion in the sea of chaos, because I don't have a magic wand, I can't get rid of the chaos, but I will have strategies. We'll have some ideas. But compassion really is powerful. I don't want to underestimate the power of compassion to help us through a hard time. 

So now back to the chaos. Ready? Let's start with the idea that you described the household as chaotic. Give me some examples.

11:51  Scott: Kevin, you had an example you had put in our notes. 

11:56  Kevin: So, in the mornings, that's probably one of the times where we see the chaos the most; sitting around and trying to eat breakfast together. Gavin is kind of jumping all over the place. Arthur is a very slow eater and easily distractible. So Gavin will often be making lots of noises and trying to distract him, it seems like, kind of. And Arthur kind of responds, often laughing, sometimes responding with his own teasing and that kind of thing…

12:25  Scott: …and Gavin is often not sitting for this—he's up and bouncing and all around.

12:31  Kevin: Yeah, pretty much.

12:32  Leslie: That right there changes a meal from four people sitting down to one popping around. Is that what the picture is? 

12:41  Kevin: Very much.

12:42  Scott: Both of them, yep, both of them goading each other. And it usually starts out laughing and silly, but pretty soon they're getting mad at each other. And we're usually getting frustrated at some point in there.

12:55  Leslie: So, the chaos begins when just coming to the table and trying to eat a meal. It starts right there. 

13:08  Kevin: It starts pretty quickly right there.

13:09  Leslie: It starts right there. Does it start before that, where both of you, if you're coming down to this—I don't know if you're both home at the time, getting them ready—but you wake up and go, Oh no. Do you have a little bit…dread is a strong word, but it could be. Do you have some pretty strong feelings before you even get to the kitchen table, knowing what's coming? 

13:32  Scott: Some days, yes. And some days, it's already starting upstairs in their bedroom,

13:39  Kevin: Gavin will kind of jump out of bed and go straight to Arthur's room and immediately start with the teasing and that kind of thing. We usually try to mentally prepare ourselves, take a few deep breaths before we go in and start that kind of thing. Because we know it's always going to be this way, and try to prepare myself the best I can for it.

13:56  Leslie: So you get two points because you said you take a few breaths before you go in. I'm going to bring up a lot of mindfulness. But before I go to that, you just said that Gavin goes in and starts the teasing. Are you assigning teasing to the behavior ? I mean, what if that's his form of play? What if his form of connection…what if that's his form of I-don't-know-how-to relate-to-you-so-I'm-going-say-this-and-this-and-it-seems-to-work? So teasing has a very strong connotation of: you're saying something to be mean, or to egg someone on, or to create some friction. Is it always with that intention? Or maybe it's playful connection?

14:48  Kevin: Sometimes it is playful, I agree. It's not necessarily always teasing to create conflict or anything like that. There are other times when I do notice there's a lot of, like, I'm faster than you. I have something that you don't, I get this, I'm bigger, and that kind of thing. So there is quite a bit of that as well.

15:07  Leslie: I think I want to start right there. I'm going to validate the fact that, my guess is that it's overwhelming. You haven't used that word, but it could be overwhelming. When things feel chaotic, they feel chaotic. I am validating the fact that I am not going to deny what you're feeling. But what I am going to offer you is the possibility that you reframe it, you restructure it in your head. And so when one of them goes to the other one, or one of them's playing—even if it is I'm faster than you, I'm better than you—I would maybe say, “Wow, I love that you guys are trying to connect.” Then the framing is: they are connecting to each other. 

And I would never invalidate if Gavin says something that hurts Arthur—I'm not going to make Arthur feel invalidated by saying, “Oh no, no, no, that was fine.” But your own framing of it affects how you feel, and actually can teach them they are actually connecting. And with their neurodivergence, this is the way they may need to connect. And in a typical world, we would call it teasing, but in a neurodivergent world, we might call it playful connection.

16:29  Kevin: Yeah, that makes sense. 

16:30  Scott: That does make sense.

16:31  Leslie: And I would verbalize that. I’d say, “There you go again. You’re playing. You're connecting. There you go again. You love each other. There's that intimate connection.” And I would maybe say it and get out of there. 

16:43  Kevin: I like that. 

16:45  Leslie: So let's keep going. Now you're downstairs, and there's a lot of stuff going on. Besides compassion, one of the things we also need to do is do some good old fashioned problem solving. So I bet you have tried a lot of things. I bet you're exhausted from trying a lot of things.

17:10  Scott: Yes.

[Laughter]

17:13  Leslie: And everybody is an expert on children, and they keep trying to give you advice, right? And it's, like, we've tried that, we've tried that. Okay, so let's begin with naming some of the things that you have tried, and what worked and what didn't work.

17:29  Scott: Sure. I mean, right now, what we're trying, we've been trying for a little while, is sort of like a reward system where we have a timer going. I guess, right now we're doing every four minutes. They each have a different sort of assignment. For Gavin, it's trying to stay in his area, and no excessive teasing and disrupting his brother who's trying to eat. So if they're successful during that time, they get a little star, and if they get however many stars that day, then there's a ticket they get for rewards later on.

18:09  Leslie: How is it working?

18:13  Kevin: It was successful at first, and I think the novelty has worn off. I think that's a common issue: these strategies work at first, and then the novelty, then it's back to the drawing board.

18:27  Scott: As soon as Gavin notices it's working, he seems to decide he doesn't want to be manipulated.

18:35  Leslie: I don't blame him. A lot of us feel the same way. So Gavin, I'm with you on that one! But there are ways to make a system, a reward system, work more effectively. Number one, they're great for very short term targets, what we call the behavior you're seeking. I would suggest the targets be smaller, and that you start and stop reward systems frequently. So he knows you’re going to do this for three days, so that he can't burn out before you end it. 

So be one step ahead of him. Say, “We're going do this. We might just do it today. We might do it for two days.” And that would be one part, because actually intermittent reinforcement keeps a behavior more likely continuing than otherwise. So we can reinforce it. You can do the reward, but make that target behavior very small. “If you keep one hand on a chair…” I don't know if that's reasonable. “If you stay on your side of the table.” “If you take five bites,” or whatever—really small targets.

But I heard you say staying in your area, not teasing. That's too many. And we really want him to be successful, so we make it sort of easy. And then as soon as it's easy, we can then the next time we reinforce that behavior, we can turn it up a little bit and change the target. So instead of it being both feet on the floor, it's going to be using your fork five times, or whatever. 

You're also working really hard, and you don't want to work harder than your children. That's going to be hard, but you want to invite them into working hard. And they are very good judges of, “Wait a minute, I don't know what you want me to change. It's too much for me to change, or I'm tired of this reward system.” So only use it when it's effective. 

It sounds obvious, but it's not so obvious. We keep trying and trying to do something, so the fact that you have to try something and do something new, that's understandable. That actually can be a reality of a reward system.

21:07  Kevin: So give ourselves the freedom to just quit it when it's not working, rather than feeling like we need to be consistent over a long period of time.

21:15  Leslie: Absolutely. I don't believe in the consistent over a long time, because I've tried it too. And it's not you guys that are failing, it's that the system doesn't work, to try it over a long time. So that's a trick: to do it very short and very specific. Behaviorism is about specificity. Does that make sense? 

21:36  Kevin: I think so.

21:37  Scott: It does. 

21:38  Leslie: Good. Does he get to put the sticker on his chart?

21:41  Kevin: We usually do that. We physically hand him a ticket when he gets the-however-many stars. We wanted there to be some kind of physical token for it.

21:49  Leslie: Okay. Feedback, self-feedback, is something we want to move into. You say, “You got a star, here's your star.” You can even go one step further and say, “You get a star for this four minutes.” Now, if I measured every four minutes of your meal, how would you feel?

22:09  Kevin: Probably stressed. [Laughter]  

22:11  Leslie: So again, don't do it all the time. Do it for a short period. Change it up, frequently change it up. Do it at the beginning of the meal, at the end of the meal; don't do it at all for some meals. I mean, a lot of kids say these skills don't work, and I hear you guys saying, “These skills don't work. We tried and then it fails.” It's not because the skill usually fails, it's because we have to tweak it to make it work. And so if it's not working, stop. Try something different.

[Music: Acoustic Motivation by Coma-Media]

22:52  Leslie: What else have you tried?

22:53  Kevin: One thing we sometimes try is redirecting to another outlet. If Gavin is running all over the place and has a lot of energy, it's, “Hey, we have a basement play area. Why don't you try running around down there and see if you can get your energy out?” And usually the response is, “No, I’m not going down there. I'm going to keep running around.” Or sometimes not even acknowledge that we've made that suggestion. Just keeps running around where he is, 

23:22  Leslie: Right. Does he eat, running around?

23:27  Kevin: Gavin will do a lap, take a bite. Do a lap, take a bite. So for him, the eating is fine. Arthur is a little bit more distractible, and will kind of forget about the eating.

23:39  Scott: And I think for us, that's a big part of that problem. I mean, I think we'd be a little more willing to let Gavin run around like that, if it wasn't distracting Arthur from eating, as he really struggles to finish a meal. 

23:55  Leslie: That was one of the things I was going to suggest. There's a skill in Dialectic Behavior Therapy called problem solving, which is what we all do every day. But in this skill, we really focus on the brainstorming step. And the brainstorming step is: come up with as many different ideas, really even out of the box ideas, or whatever that you can think of. 

So my thought initially was: it sounds like they're distracting each other. Can one get dressed while the other one's eating? Can one eat in the car to school? I don't know if they take a car to school or bus to school. Can we vary it up? Can they eat in different rooms? Can they eat at different times? I don't know if you've tried any brainstorming, different ideas like that.

24:47  Scott: We actually have done a couple of those things you mentioned. We have, a couple times, tried to have them eat in separate rooms. That's occasionally been successful. Occasionally causes a fight over who gets which room. We've tried to ask Gavin to help come up with solutions. And he's done a couple where he wants to have a fidget toy to play with while he’s eating. So we're obviously fine with that, and that'll usually work for a couple days. For a while he got out markers and paper and was drawing during meal time. And these things seem to work for a couple days, and then they're not new anymore.

25:31  Leslie: So what's my suggestion?

25:33  Scott: Rotate through all of them.

25:37  Leslie: Just keep rotating through them. I don't know if you've seen any of those balance boards. I have one for physical therapy; I actually was doing it for my knee. And then I'm like, wait a minute, I can do a standing therapy session and stand on my balance board. Because guess what, I have a lot of ADHD, and I would love to be moving the whole time I'm talking. Because, actually, I think better when I move. So, yeah, a balance board. 

And I would rotate these. What we're helping in raising your child is not to fix the ADHD. We're not fixing anything. There's nothing broken. But how does he understand who he is, the impact of how he shows up in the world, and the areas that he might need to work on? What are his strengths? What are the areas that aren't…you know, I had to learn to modulate but the volume of my voice and how not to bump into people when I'm walking. I've done all these things, and some I haven't learned until I was later in life, and some I learned…actually, the truth is that a lot of them I learned later in life. 

Okay, so one of the things that we want to say is that you're in a long term investment with your children. And all of these great ideas that you're rotating through, that you will start to rotate through, will be giving him information—will be giving Gavin information about who he is. 

I need to help myself be focused. I need some distraction to keep me in one place. I notice that if I draw, I can actually pay attention more. You should see my college notebooks, they have the most gorgeous doodle designs on the back of my college notebooks, because during every class, I sat there doodling. And that was my way of learning. You want to make sure he understands this about himself. And when he's in school, if he ever has a teacher that says, “No, you can't doodle,” you're going to have to go in and fight for him. You're going to have to go in and advocate for him, because that's the way he pays attention. He moves another part of his body so that he can focus his thinking. 

All right, I love these ideas, and I think the ideas that we're talking about also point to a balance between, When do I accept the running around and the chaos, and when do I need to change it? So it's the dialectic dilemma that we talk about between accepting the moment as it is and needing to change the moment as it is. Did you wonder about that question?

28:39  Scott:  Absolutely. 

28:40  Kevin: Definitely.

28:41  Scott: Every day.

[Laughter]

28:46  Leslie: So when you say “every day,” it's a constant question that you have…

28:53  Scott: Yeah, I mean, most of these days during breakfast, just continuing with that example, I mean, I'll be thinking about that even in the moment. Sometimes, like, I'm starting to get agitated. Kevin's getting agitated. Do I need to intervene? Do I need to accept this? I do struggle in the moment, sometimes with that.

29:13  Kevin: Is this a Gavin problem, or is it a me problem I guess is what goes through my head?

29:18  Leslie: There's the other dialectic: Whose problem is it? Is it a me problem, or is it a Gavin problem? All right, those are two great dialectic dilemmas that you as parents have to face. And you're facing it a lot. It's nice, because when you're working so hard to change it, change it, change it, change it, get the right solution, figure it out, it’'s really nice to throw in a little acceptance, like, Okay, I'm going to throw up my hands and say this moment is as it is. It is what it is, and I'm going to take that breath that I need so often, admit the chaos, or just have a little compassion for myself. Because the compassion is an acceptance strategy. Taking a breath is an acceptance strategy. 

So there are your two big acceptance strategies. When you're dealing with, I’ve got to change this, I’ve got to fix this, bring in those acceptance strategies at any time you need them. They actually give you a little energy to keep going so you don't burn out. Remember to take your breath. Remember to have compassion. It sounds like you might even spot each other: I see Kevin getting upset, so I'm going to jump in. I even want you to use, when you say, whose problem is it, a Gavin problem or a Kevin problem, sometimes make it a Kevin problem. Put the focus on yourself, just to ease up the work, the exhaustion, the burnout that you're feeling—just solve your own problem. It's easier to solve your own problem than it is to solve someone else's. And distract yourself. “Hey, Scott, I don't know what you're doing after work today. Did you want to go over that? Or who has any ideas for dinner?” Sometimes a complete U-turn is the best thing in the moment.

31:11  Kevin: Yeah. I think so. And one thing that I've found sometimes is just saying something completely silly, and out there is enough to get Gavin, kind of like, restarted, I guess, so to speak. It just kind of changes the dynamic. Sometimes that helps things,

31:28  Leslie: Excellent. I love that. And think about, if you are a child who is being told—I don't even know that you do this—sit still, use your fork, stop teasing your brother. If you hear that over and over again, what do you end up growing up believing?

31:48  Kevin: Yeah, we want him to have a positive self image. 

31:51  Leslie: What we end up believing when we hear that over and over again, which is sort of what I just kept thinking: What's wrong with me? I must be bad.  And that's actually called shaming. We do want to parent and try our very best. It cannot be perfect, but all we want to do is have some awareness and attention to trying our best so that we reduce the shaming. 

I'm going to go with this idea that variety is the spice of life. So changing up the strategies—I love that you've got a lot of strategies. Maybe all we need to do now is literally make a bucket of them. Put them on index cards or tongue depressors, and then pull one out and say, “Oh, let's use a balance board. Let's do drawing.” And that gets him involved, like you said, getting him to have some ideas. That's brilliant. I love that. 

And the variety of sometimes just accepting the moment, not trying to change it. Other times, trying to change it. Other times, put the focus on you. Other times use a little humor and distraction. It made a good Thanksgiving soup, when I had a variety of ingredients. 

33:14  Scott: That makes sense.

33:15  Kevin: I really like the idea of putting them on little note cards or something, and having them draw them out. That might get some more buy-in too. 

33:23  Leslie: And the other thing is, always leave some blank ones, because we want to remember there's always room and other options. I don't want you guys to feel trapped or at the end of your rope: “Oh my god, there's nothing we can do with these kids.”  Another empty card means, “There's another option we haven't thought of. Do I need to get on the phone with Leslie? Do I need to call a friend? Do I need to ask his teacher? What other options do I need?” So making sure you have some empty cards for other ideas is a great suggestion as well. 

And there's one thing I'd like you to think about before we wrap up, which I heard a few times in the beginning of our conversation. I heard a few shoulds. When you were doing the compassion, things that you should be doing, or your kids should be doing. And those shoulds are present for most human beings. We think, I should be doing this. I should be doing that. I should teach my child to eat with better manners. 

So I would like to actually give you a little homework. And I'd like you to think about the subtle shoulds that you might hear, or that are so subtle you don't hear but are still there. What are the shoulds that you live by? What are the shoulds that you're expecting your children to live by? 

Just out of curiosity, are you two as adults, people who live by a lot of shoulds? Do you do that to yourself? 

35:02  Kevin: I would say that applies to me. I think so.

35:04  Scott: I definitely do. 

35:08  Leslie: So then the homework is twofold. Look at the shoulds you put on yourself, and then think about the shoulds you put on your children. So you have two lists. Think about your two lists and let me know what those are next time. So that's your homework. You're going think about two lists, bringing them back to our next session. 

And by the way, I don't have a should: I don't have an expectation. If you don't get to your homework, and you come back and you said, “We didn't do it,” I'm going say, “Great. Let's start with: Did you ever think about it? Did you ever have a thought about the shoulds?” And you say, “Yeah, I thought about it all the time, but I didn't write anything down.” I'm going be like, “Right, because not everything has to be done the way I think it should be done.” 

All right, so a lot of flexibility here, and do the best you can. And I really look forward to having another session with you.

36:09  Kevin: Thank you, Leslie.

36:10  Scott: Thanks a lot.

 [Music: Nature Calls by Folk_Acoustic]

36:17  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: If I was walking in Kevin and Scott's shoes, I would feel the same frustration that they did, and feeling like you're not getting anywhere, and even questioning whether or not you're a failure as a parent. Well, I want to take this moment to describe the difference between primary emotions and secondary emotions. The anger and frustration that most of us feel in parenting are probably secondary emotions, because there's usually something going on below the surface, and what's going on below the surface are primary emotions. The primary emotions in this case might be guilt, grief, and shame, because we have expectations. We have expectations of our kids. We want our kids to be a certain way, even before we have children. And then when they're not that way, we might feel guilty. And then along with the guilt comes the shame, because I shouldn't be feeling this way. I should be thrilled and grateful for the child that I have. 

So we really want to think about the fact that underneath your anger and frustration, you might be feeling these other feelings. There is a sense of grief for the family that you thought you'd have, the child you thought you'd have, the parent you thought you'd be. So I suggest that we look at all of these emotions. We don't want to disregard any of them. They're there to communicate with us. We want to go below the surface if I'm really feeling some guilt, shame, or grief. And at the same time, we do want to deal with those secondary emotions of anger and frustration, because they're trying to communicate with us. 

So that's my little two cents as we wrap up this episode, because I think it's really important to address all the emotions. And I do want to say that shame, the one that makes us feel not good enough, that's something that parents often come to me and say, “I don't feel good enough. Am I good enough? Am I a good enough parent?” And I would say, let's ask a different question. The question I might ask is: Am I showing up, and do I feel like I know what I'm doing enough to feel competent? I think if you can feel like you have something to work on, you can feel some competency. 

And the last thing I want to say is that kids need us to show up. We want to be a pillar of support. We want to be as strong as possible even when we don't feel it. And that's where we get the expression, fake it till you feel it, because kids need us to show up strong even when we don't feel that way. 

So this week, take a moment to celebrate the effort you're putting in and the small successes along the way. 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

And then join us next week for my second session with Kevin and Scott, where we talk all about homework and brainstorm ways to help your kids when they're having meltdowns over assignments. 

You can subscribe to  Is My Child A Monster? Wherever you get your podcasts and please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camilla Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. And I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Thanks so much for joining me.

Transcribed by Eric Rubury