How To Talk To Your Kid About Phones With Special Guest Max Stossel

To quote Max Stossel “social media is drastically impacting young people’s mental health, focus, social skills, productivity and self-worth".  On today’s episode, Leslie has a conversation with technology expert, Max Stossel, who was a media strategist before becoming an educator on this topic. He speaks about the reality of phones and compassionately, how parents do indeed have to deal with this reality because it's not going away.  Max increases our understanding of how social media is designed to keep kids (and us) on the phones. He offers practical solutions to work on and hopes to create a common language between parents and their kids.  

Time Stamps

3:45 Max explains his mission to “help children survive and thrive in the modern world”

• Social Media is like gas on a fire of all the issues that were already there for teenagers/kids such as self worth, bullying, etc

5:00 Help kids to have a mindful moment of really checking in about how their technology makes them feel

8:40 How understanding slot machines and their variable reward system explains how and why we use the phone (Intermitten reinforcement which keeps a behavior going

11:37 Changing the question to your child from “do you like this? TO how does it make you feel?”

• “How does it make you feel during and after?”

13:00 We can help children develop an awareness of what they are feeling during and after being on technology

14:45 Discussing the overwhelm that parents feel with the pressures of tech use

15:30 Discussion of why and how to delay giving your child a phone for as long as possible and problem solving

19:16 Max’s list a few of his recommendations (see show notes for a more extensive list)

• Removing phones from bedrooms
• Using Technology is a trade between presence or looking at my phone. Its a choice
• Narrate that choice- take responsibility for the choice you make
• The bigger the screen the better (more social accountability and less isolation)

24:15 Two role play situations.   25:17 Trying to get your teen off their phone.  34:20 When your tween asks you to get them a phone

28:40 Review of the strategies of the first role play 

38::00 Review of the strategies of the second role play

42:20 Technology gets in the way of self discovery

45:30 Experiment with substitute experiences instead of scrolling

Leslie-ism: Replace the question of “do you like this TO how does it make you feel”

Resources:

Max Stossel’s Organization Social Awakening Website with technology resources

Here is a list of best practices recommended by Max Stossel

Here is list of best practices recommended by Max Stossel

Max Stossel’s Website as a Poet and Performer

The Center For Human Technology with a link to the movie The Social Dilemma

Wait Until 8th Movement - resources and information

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, 

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:02  Max Stossel: Social media has poured gas on every internal fire. Everything about our self-worth and development in terms of how we look, social media is gas on that fire. So to grow up and develop in today's world, it's a really, really hard time.

0:22  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Welcome to, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations. I'm Leslie Cohen-Rubury. And no, your child is not a monster, just misunderstood. 

My guest today is Max Stossel, an award-winning artist and the founder of Social Awakening, an organization dedicated to helping young people survive and thrive in the modern world. Before working in this field, Max was a media strategist with an extensive background in social media. He ran social media for big brands and later worked for a social media company. He has spent the past ten years speaking with over a million students, parents, and educators around the world about social media's impact on our lives and creating resources to help manage that impact. 

Now, as a reminder, though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. So let's begin. 

1:37  Leslie: Hi Max, thanks so much for joining me today.

1:39  Max: Hi, thanks for having me. 

1:43  Leslie: I am so excited about your life as a dialectic example, an example of dialectic living is what I'd say. I'm a Dialectic Behavior Therapist, and so I throw that word around a lot in my podcast, which is about embracing different perspectives and the tension, or the differences that come from different perspectives. And I love how your life is woven together with art and technology. 

And I'm just so curious, because most people would think, well, I'm in the art world or I'm in the technology world. You bring it together. So do you want to share a little bit about that journey of bringing that together, or what's that like for you?

2:24  Max: Sure. There's an inherent tension in them in that, like my work as an artist, poet, and filmmaker. And I perform poetry on stage and share stories. And to be an artist in today's world, it sure feels like you need to, or want to, use a lot of social media to promote yourself. And I'm also doing that. I don't like doing the full-on thing where I'm diving into it and pushing, pushing, pushing on social media. It just doesn't feel good for me. 

But it sure seems like social media is definitely a part of the artist’s world in today's world. And I also have kind of separated them in my life a bit. And that, very much like my work world, is going around community by community, school by school, talking to parents, students, educators about how social media is impacting our lives and relationships. And that also is what funds my life and helps me create the art that I want to make. It takes a lot of pressure off of the art as the thing that needs to make me money. 

And so I really do like that separation and that I can make the things that I want to make and not have to worry so much about, Is this what people are going to buy, X, Y or Z? Can I just actually create the things that feel right for me? And so I've got those two threads kind of weaving in my life.

3:40  Leslie: In my introduction of you, you made the comment, you're helping young people survive and thrive in the modern world. Can you share with us what you mean by that?

3:53  Max: I think it's a really hard time to be a teenager, in part because parents and kids have never grown up more differently. The world that our kids are growing up in is very different than the one that we grew up in. And social media and the internet are a big, big part of why that's the case. And I think so much of social media has poured gas on every internal fire that exists inside of us, and it's all of the pieces of how intense popularity felt, and how important it felt to be popular in middle school or high school. 

Now, social media is gas on that fire. All the tensions of bullying, social media is gas on that fire. Everything about our self-worth and development in terms of how we look, social media is gas on that fire. So to grow up and develop in today's world, it's a really hard time. And I think for the most part, teenagers are so tired of old people telling them what to do and what to do especially about their phone and tech use. There's like, You don't get it. You don't get what our world is like. 

And so I feel I'm able to come in kind of as a bridge and help kids kind of have a perspective moment, a mindfulness moment of, Is this working? Do we like what we're doing here? Do we actually even like spending time on the social media app? Or do I just feel like I have to do it, or because everybody else is doing it? Am I actually enjoying the way that I'm spending my time? Do I feel good in my relationships when I'm sending pictures of a forehead back and forth on Snapchat all the time? Is that an actual conversation? Is this how I want to be communicating with my friends? And trying to help them really live the way that they would actually want to live is a lot of how I see my work with kids.

5:32  Leslie: I love that you described that the problems aren't new—the developmental tasks, the growing up, the fitting in, the communicating, the bullying, the things that have been there, but it's on steroids. It's really like you said, is there's fuel to those issues. So I'm with you on that. One of the things that you subtly mentioned just there is that for kids, it's different, for parents, it's different. And I'm going to add creating pressure and tension. So maybe we'll get to that as well in terms of speaking about this tension that's caused from the differences between what the parents have known, what the kids are trying—what are they trying to do. And we can talk about how to resolve that tension. 

You acknowledge the tension in your art and your technology and how it works for you and how it you work with it. And that's what I think we can get to here with technology, is how to work with the differences in parents lives and kids lives. So how did you get to this interest in wanting to be an educator, helping kids, communicating with kids? How'd you get here?

6:41  Max: So, when I was working for a small social media company, it was our job to try to help grab and hold as much attention as possible. And it was through conversations with someone named Tristan Harris, who is in The Social Dilemma, featured a lot in that film, that he was really talking eloquently about the difference between the things that we want and the things we will just sort of do as human animals, if you put a certain set of stimuli in front of us. 

And the difference between those two things and in design of technology so much is done about: What buttons will we hit? And it's not thinking about the sort of thinking slow, deeper self that actually looks back on decisions with satisfaction. And I really liked the way he was talking about these ideas. I wanted to help him however I could. I helped him start this organization, The Center for Humane Technology. And we were getting all these emails from parents, teachers saying, “What the heck do we do about this whole smartphone and social media thing?” And they were just sort of going on. I was like, I'm just going to take this side of things. I will respond to these emails. I will go off and see if I can be helpful. 

And I started speaking in schools, and I just sort of blossomed from there. And yeah, now, I mean, about 50 to 60 schools a year, and spoken with millions of students, parents and educators about these topics. And I do not have kids myself. I have, strangely, as a 36-year-old, engaged not single; and I have become the child expert somehow on how to raise kids in the digital age. And over the course of doing this work, I just have been speaking with and having so many conversations with so many different folks about this.

8:13  Leslie: Okay, so you may not be a parent, but there's a lot that you understand. And I think from engaging in your work, that's one of the things I took away, and I'm so impressed, which actually is the same mission I'm on with my podcast, is to help parents understand kids. So I talk about validation, but you speak about it as understanding what's on the other side of the phone, the technology aspect of what's happening when we pick up our phone, when we pick up technology. Do you want to speak a little bit about that?

8:48  Max: Yes. One helpful framework to look at it as is one thing in America that makes more money than baseball, movies, and theme parks combined is slot machines. And slot machines you play with some very small amount of money at a time. And the way that works is the process called variable rewards, which basically is the process of pulling a lever or pushing a button. There's a delay, and sometimes you win, the lights flash, it feels good, and sometimes you don't, but you can't predict when you're going to get the exciting, feel-good thing. And that's one of the most addictive mechanisms in our brains. 

And so much of our devices are designed like these slot machines. Every time we're hitting one of those little red icons, we're playing that slot machine of: What did I get this time? Did I get something exciting? Sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't. And even social media itself as we're scrolling: bored, bored, bored, whoa check that out, bored, bored, bored, bored, bored. We get that emotional hit and reward and this unpredictable schedule that ultimately keeps us scrolling. 

And so as a parent, it can be easy to get caught in I don't know, is it good? Is it bad? Well, they saw this really amazing thing on there, so it can't be all bad. The good-bad trap, I don't think is helpful. The whole thing is designed like a slot machine. Of course, there are rewards in there, but you're entering into this emotional slot machine for hours and hours and hours at a time. As a parent, if you ever checked your email and then immediately scrolled down to refresh right after you just checked your email, you're playing the slot machine, like, What am I going to get? What am I going to get?

10:11  Leslie: So understanding that when we pick up our phone, we're playing a slot machine.

10:17  Max: Yes, with every little red dot tap, or every time we're scrolling in a feed.

10:21  Leslie: As soon as you say that, my whole body goes, Yes, because I know that feeling. Why did I check my email again? I'm laughing, but it's an awareness that, if I think of my phone as a slot machine, of course I'm going to keep going. Because, from a behavioral point of view—and we do a lot of behaviorism in raising kids—what am I reinforcing? What am I not? We call it intermittent reinforcement. We know the power of that intermittent reinforcement. You call it variable…

10:52  Max: It's intermittent variable rewards. I think it's probably the same thing.

10:56  Leslie: And we know the power of that—that keeps you going. So I might give an example. If you take your child to a store and they say, “I want candy. I want candy,” and you say no 99% of the time, as long as you say yes once and there's an unpredictability when that yes comes, they will ask every time. They won't say, You know what? Most of the time she says, no. I won't keep asking. They will ask, as long as it happens once, intermittently. Okay, so there's the power of that. So helping kids understand that is something you point out. And you also mentioned this idea of how they feel about it. You want to speak about that?

11:38  Max: Yes. One question I pose to the students is, rather, than just, Do you like this? Because if you asked me, I was a gamer growing up, I played this game, Halo, for hours at a time. If you asked me if I liked it, yeah, I like it. If you asked me how it made me feel, that would have been a smarter question if I was aware enough to know what I was feeling. And because I think for the first hour I was excited, but then after that, I was mostly stressed and angry trying to get to the next level. And then focusing on just, how does this actually impact our lives and make us feel during and after, how does this game or app make you feel during and after, can be a more helpful way of having conversations about this stuff. Just like in the casino, we're just sort of doing things that we're not thinking about so much. Do you like it? Are you stimulated? Yes, I'm stimulated, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm liking this or enjoying the decisions that I'm making. And shifting that conversation from, do you like this? How does this make you feel during and after, or how is this impacting your life—those kind of conversations I think are more fruitful.

12:36  Leslie: I love that real, practical strategy to change your question from, Do you like it to, How does this make you feel? And as a kid, another thing that's different is I didn't know how I felt growing up. And I'm a bit older, whereas, like, no, no, no, we didn't discuss how I felt. You're saying you didn't have that awareness either. But we can bring that awareness to our younger children. Even if they don't get it, if we start early, they will begin to understand what that feels like. 

I remember my kids who, at your age, 37, 38, didn't spend as much time on technology, but they watched TV. And after watching hours of TV, then the fighting started. So I would always say, “I'm curious if there's a connection between how you feel, how your body feels after watching TV and then trying to interact with each other. Did you notice that?” And I don't need them to agree with me. I just sort of put it out there. So parents can start early with helping children understand how they are.

13:45  Max: I think that you're speaking to what is a big part of the challenge that I also think adults and especially those who kind of grew up in households where feelings were not prioritized or accepted or told to be paid any attention to, it can be hard even just to notice what a feeling is. But young kids, I think, are much more…it's easier for young kids, I think actually, they're much more aware of what they're feeling or experiencing in their bodies. And feelings are basically processes and sensations in our bodies. 

And so even getting as simple as just like, “Hey, what are you feeling? Where are you feeling it in your body?” And having those conversations from young ages, so that they can start to notice. If you're not aware of what you're feeling, you're not going to know how being on the game or the app is making you feel, is, I agree, really important and helpful.

14:27  Leslie: And there's a lot of work that can go into that. So let's go back to the technology side. Because I know parents, my listeners are, What do I do? They just want the answers for what to do. At the same time, when they ask the question, I think they're putting a lot of pressure on themselves. I think they get very scared, between the fear the pressure, what else is going on? Where we want to give parents some strategies, some ideas, but we don't necessarily want to contribute to that overwhelm and that pressure.

14:59  Max: It just is overwhelming. There is so much going on, there's so many different elements, and it feels like a full time job to try to stay on top of it—all of that is true. So it's really hard. And I think at the very beginning, just acknowledging this is hard. It's a very hard thing to manage, and you're probably not going to get it perfect—that might help to relieve some of that pressure. And let's not diminish all the things that are happening. 

And so some of the things that I think are helpful to keep an eye on. The most effective thing, big picture, to not drive ourselves crazy about this that parents can do is, one, is delaying the introduction of the first smartphone for basically as long as possible. And so, Wait Until Eighth is a movement that gets communities together and says, we're all going to collectively wait until at least the end of eighth grade to give the first smartphone. And at least 16 for social media. That might feel daunting or impossible, even getting together with one of your kids’ close friends and saying, “Can we be on the same page about this?” That goes really a long way. 

But that delay is really, really helpful. So many parents give their kids smartphones the moment they want to communicate with them from afar. But I heard a comedian say recently, Calling a smartphone a phone is kind of like calling Alexis a cup holder. That's very little of what we use this device for. There are plenty of devices. There are flip phones. There are way more child friendly devices. One called Pinwheel is one I've heard a lot of people like a lot. Light Phone, Gab, True Me—there's lots of devices that are much closer to actual phones that we can give to kids when we want to communicate with them from afar.

But giving kids infinite access to everything machines, self-comparison machines, porn machines, because we want to text them or call them doesn't make any sense. And we're doing that a lot of the time. 

16:39  Leslie: I love that you pulled that out, that thread that it's a phone, let's give them what they're asking for.

16:43  Max: And that thought as a parent, too, when they're asking for something, really trying to understand: What are you asking for? And is this something that I as a parent want to give you right now? Is that? Is it something that is age appropriate? Because so many parents, they're like, “Well, I guess this is the world now, and I don't want my kids to be left behind.” Going against their own instinct because they're like, “This doesn't feel right. I don't think I want to do this, but I guess this is the world. I don't know.” The parents are not crazy. The world has gone crazy with this. I think that's one thing that I can really speak to with authority. 

What we've done here is not normal. This is a very strange norm that people have accepted. And so encouraging parents to actually trust your instincts of that, “They're probably not ready for this everything machine, what is the action they're actually trying to take? And often it's like, “Well, my friends are on it.” Okay, all your friends are on it. So you're not able to talk to your friends? Do you need help talking to your friends? Do we want to set up a Zoom call? “Zoom, Mom, no!” 

You're going to be able to get into: what do you actually want? You want to connect with your friends? Of course, I want you to connect with your friends. No, you don't need these ridiculous apps and drugs to do that. So I'm happy to help you brainstorm ways of connecting with your friends. Just getting into the actual thing that's going on and then allowing you to make a better decision about whether you want this app or service or device to be in their kids lives at this age.

18:08  Leslie: So if I was to name those skills that you just named, you are talking about validating and defining specifically, you're getting your child to articulate, which is a great skill between the two of you, parent and child, articulate what it is they're looking for. They may not exactly know. They want to belong, they want to connect. They want to do what everyone else is doing. And then you bring in the skill which is the problem solving of Let's brainstorm different ways of doing that. 

And of course, the kids are going to say the only way to do it is, “I have to have a phone. Everyone's doing the phone.” Yes, that is a way. You don't even have to say no. You have to say, “Yes, that's one way.” And then keep going with that. 

So we've got defining it, validating that they have concerns and that they have needs that they're attempting to meet. And then defining it—problem solving. That's really, really helpful. Do you have any other ideas for parents who are dealing with this big problem?

19:13  Max: So the Social Awakening website has all sorts of my stuff and recommendations, and so totally welcome to access all of that. Some other principles that I think are especially helpful. One is recognizing that for social media, especially if social media were a movie, it would be rated NC 17 in terms of content exposure. You can look at all social media apps as NC 17 movies, and you can think of it that way, in terms of just what kids will be exposed to. Doesn't mean they're constantly watching NC 17 content, but in this slot machine format, absolutely you're going to be exposed to very graphic, very violent, very sexual things, ideas that you wouldn't want young kids to be looking at. And so you can just know that that is going to be the case for any sort of social media platform. 

Another thing that parents can do, I think, at young ages, that is very helpful, is modeling, like when you go to bed, putting your devices like in the kitchen, or whatever that might be, and not taking devices into the bedroom. That's something that some parents, when they've just done that from a young age, they don't have problems later with kids just taking it in, being up all hours into the night. 

Two more principles, I guess, that I believe are very helpful. One is, every time you reach for your device, modeling this—kids learn this stuff from us. We are absolutely having the same problems here, but recognizing that tech is a trade, like, do I actually want to make this trade right now? Do I want to trade presence for looking at this? Do I want to trade the process of figuring out the answer together for looking it up on the screen? Like, understanding the trades that we're making. In terms of modeling the behavior, “Hey, I'm going to look at this phone right now. I want to see if this is your mom/your dad/the hospital. I'm going to look, and then I'm going to put it down.” “Hey, I know that I'm on my devices a lot. This is how we put food on the table. I'm not just scrolling. I'm not just playing a game.” O,r” I'm an adult. I'm scrolling, I'm playing a game. I want to do this for 30 minutes, and then maybe you can help me stop after 30 minutes.” Narrating a little bit about what we're doing on the screens, because the back of the device just looks like the back of the device. And so that principle, I think, is very, very helpful. 

And there was one more I was thinking of. Just the difference between—this is oversimplified—but in general, the bigger the screen, the better, I think, is a helpful way of thinking about this stuff, just because it's I think where most of the really dangerous stuff comes in is when we're isolated on an individual screen off by ourself. There's a big difference between that and even if we're both looking at a phone together, or if we're looking at a computer together. Or if it's something in the common area on the TV where everybody can see it, the social accountability of watching the stuff with somebody else, as opposed to being isolated doing it, I really do think is significant for kids. 

21:52  Leslie: That one I have never thought about, and that is really profound in the sense that the isolation of what happens when you see something you didn't go to look for, you weren't intentionally going to look for, and it pops up, and there's pornography, there's there's violence, and then you're isolated and you don't know how to communicate that there might be shame around it. That's really a great idea, because the bigger the screen, the more connection we have to others, which can definitely help if something like that were to happen.

22:25  Max: And the only caveat I'll give with it is the watch is not worse than the phone, but, that's a smaller screen, but you can't do very much on that. 

22:35  Leslie: You talked about that presence. I really love the idea of being present, when you're aware of yourself on the phone. And as a DBT therapist, one of my favorite things that I learned is that we have to practice what we preach. So if I'm teaching someone skills, I need to be practicing those skills. And it's interesting that my children pointed this out to me as adults. Because I work and I'm on my phone to take client calls and things like that, they made me aware, because I didn't have the awareness that when I picked up my phone, which may have been justified because I needed to respond to a client that I could announce, or I could decide if I do it while we're talking or while I'm sitting with them, versus, “I Just got a work call. I'm going to go take it in the room and come back.” What an impact that made. Because I just thought, Oh, it'll be a second. Let me do it. But I wasn't aware that when I put that phone to my face in the middle of a conversation, boy, what an interrupter. 

And if I don't like interrupting people because that's rude, then that is a rude behavior that has an impact. So my kids pointed it out, I appreciated that they pointed that out, I'm still working on that behavior, but it's really great. And you know what? This is all a work in progress,

23:50 Max: Absolutely. And that way you can just even talk about, Hey, I'm going to make the trade right now,” just that. And they can say, “I didn't want you to make the trade.” It can at least be a conversation about when we go to these devices, and modeling that.

24:02  Leslie: You're encouraging a lot of conversations, I love that.

[Music: Mellow Summer Folk by Alex Kizenkov]

24:15  Leslie: Would you be willing to role play with me? 

24:17  Max: Absolutely. 

24:19  Leslie: Okay, so role playing, I think it's a good idea, because the parents that come to the podcast are frequently asking me, “Well, what do I do about technology?” I'm not a technology expert, but being engaged with your work, you really do talk about the communication, things that I talk about, connection. And so there's so much we can do, I think. And so I just thought in terms of giving parents the skills who are coming and the tools, if we talk about it. Because one of the things I hear over and over again is: “My kids won't have this conversation. My kids won't talk about this.” 

So maybe we can do two different role plays, where I'll be the kid, you be the parent. I'm not going to make it easy on you. But I'm a teenager, let's say, who doesn't want to get off my phone. I use it a lot. I love my Snapchat, and it's my lifeline to my friends. That'll be the first one, the second one we might do, getting a phone for the first time in that conversation. Let's go for it.

25:17  Max: “Hey, I see that you're using a lot of your phone, a lot of Snapchat. What do you do on there?”

25:23  Leslie: “I'm talking to my friends, of course. What do you think I'm doing on there? 

25:28  Max: “Cool. What are you talking about?” 

25:30  Leslie: “You know, everything.”

25:29  Max: “Everything. So when I am talking to students about Snapchat, I ask them to raise their hand if they use Snapchat, they're all raising their hand. I ask them to raise their hand if they have Snapchat streaks. You have Snapchat streaks going, You have a lot of those? I Ask them to keep their hands up if they like Snapchat streaks. And every hand goes down. Every hand in the room goes down. It seems like a lot of people are doing this thing. They don't actually like to do it. 

Obviously, I don't want to stop you from talking to your friends. I want you to talk to your friends. But it seems like it's you're doing it in this place that is doing weird, manipulative stuff to you. Does that resonate at all?”

26:03  Leslie: “Well, yeah, but what am I supposed to do? I mean, I have to be on it because my friends are on it, and then they ask me about it. I can't get off it because I'm doing what everyone else is doing. No, I don't like it. I mean, who does like it? I'm on the phone all the time, but I have to be.”

26:20  Max: “That sounds really stressful, that sounds really complicated.”

26:24  Leslie: “Well, it's stressful, but it's what I’ve got to do. I don't have a choice.”

26:28  Max: “It sounds like you're holding a lot. I really feel for you in that I definitely don't want to disconnect you from your friends. But I can feel that that's tense, that's a lot of stress in your life.”

26:37  Leslie: “I mean, it's probably messing up my life but what can I do?” 

26:43  Max: “It feels like you want to keep up these streaks, and you don't want to miss it, you don't want to let your friends down. You don't want to feel left out of those things. But it's in the way. I obviously want you to thrive in your life. Are there ways that we can think about how we can manage that?”

26:58  Leslie: “Well, I used to have my friends over, and we used to go out and do things together. We don't do that anymore. We just sit in our rooms, so it's really sad and lonely.” 

27:10  Max: “Yeah. Now you can just sort of sit on your phone and it almost feels like connection, but isn't really. Like it's almost there and then, no. It's awkward maybe to ask them to come over, because we're all just all sort of connected anyway.” 

“But what I think is everyone is feeling that way too, and so it feels scary to be, like, do we want to break this? It might actually be really relieving to some of your friends too, that they're feeling this stuff and they maybe want to hang out, like you used to. And actually, would it be helpful if I was the bad guy? If when your friends come over and I'm going to say no. Because I'm the mean person, I'm taking away the devices, you're just going to have to figure it out. And then it doesn't have to be you that suggests that you're off your phone. I can be that. Would that be helpful for me to play that role?”

27:53  Leslie: “It actually would be. So if you could be the mean guy, that would actually be helpful, because I don't want my friends to think that I don't want to be with them because that might be a rejection. So if you actually tell them that might be helpful.

28:07  Max: “Great. I'd be totally happy to do that.”

28:10  Leslie: “I'm willing to try that.”

28:12  Max: “Let’s try that.”

28:13  Leslie: All right, that sounds good. So that was one conversation where you pulled me in because you connected to how-am-I-feeling. And you got me to acknowledge whether I knew it or not, that it really doesn't feel good. And actually it was a big aha when I said I'm lonely—I would have never thought that as a teenager I would be lonely when I'm talking to all my friends all day and doing that. But when I said that out loud and you heard me say I was lonely, it was like, Wow, that's not okay. I don't want to be lonely, and I am feeling lonely, and this is really happening to me. So that was really helpful. 

28:54  Max: In a real conversation too, it wouldn't have been that fast, we wouldn't have gotten to that at that quick, at that speed. But I think one thing that the kids really appreciate is I really am coming in with a non-judgmental, “Tell me,what's going on here?” Because kids will be, if they're already in that vibe, be like, “Oh, I'm not telling you, you're trying to take this from me.” And just being, “Look, I don't know the answer. I actually want to understand. Can we look at this together so we can see and decide.” Because you're dealing with addicts. Once you're in that place, you really do see addict behavior. 

And it's amazing the conversations I have with a kid about moving the conversations off Snapchat to regular messaging apps. The answers I get back, they are addict answers. They're so stringent about like, “No, it has to be here.” There's this addicted behavior, but having that relationship as much as possible with a child, where you're saying, “Hey, can you actually help me understand? I'm not here to take it away necessarily. I want to understand. I want us to figure out the best solution together.” 

I think getting to that point is the type of relationship, especially around tech, that will go a lot further than any sort of tug of war that you're in. So in that conversation with you, just in feeling the tug of war, I was like, First things first, I need to get out of tug of war. And how do we get out of tug of war?

30:24  Leslie: Love it: Get out of tug of war first. Wonderful. And I really feel that non-judgmental stance is a matter of—that's what we call it in DBT, but your non-judgmental nature, very understanding, very connecting. And one of the things that I heard you say and maybe you want to repeat, is that you want to have a conversation, and you want to turn the conversation from shame to communicating. Would you speak a little bit more about that? Because there are some times that I think there's a lot of shaming involved.

30:58  Max: Yeah, I think even just acknowledging that this is hard. “What you're sharing—got it, that's hard.” Not making that bad or wrong just really trying to understand what that would be like to be in your shoes in that situation, and that's not easy. That's okay, I'm on your team. There's always the inherent I'm on your team in whatever's not easy and going on here, and you're not bad or wrong for it. There's nothing you could say or do that would make you bad or wrong, you know, you're not a monster. And truly just being with whatever is there and being on the team, I think, is a really valuable way of approaching a challenge like that.

31:33  Leslie: Love that idea: Think about being on their team, because you'll get so much more forward momentum than being against them. They know how to push back, teenagers. That's their job, is to push back. So don't give them the opportunity to push back. We need to use the aikido method of move with the movement rather than against it,

31:57  Max: Which also involves awareness of our own emotions. Because a lot of times, parents are so caught up in their own reaction to this stuff, or what's going on their kids’ phones. And they're fired up, they're sad, they're angry, and that gets projected on. It's really just being actually grounded and present with the kids’ experience.

32:16  Leslie: So take a breath before you have that conversation. Before, during and after—you're going to need those grounding moments where, I'm going to take a breath. This is walking into a challenging situation. One other thing that I'll add, that I always say about difficult conversations, because you said we went fast in our role play—it was fast. We said a lot, probably wouldn't happen that fast. They can be small conversations, one step at a time. You don't have to have one conversation be the end-all-be-all—you’re not going to have that. It's going to be many, many, many conversations, probably over their lifetime, when it comes to technology, yours, theirs, and all of that. 

So, yes, break conversations down. Let them be small. If it's a five-minute conversation: success. Let conversations be, “Hey, can I have a conversation with you?” 

Okay, shall we move to the second one, where I just got a phone, and I'm super excited. I've been waiting for it, and now you've given me a phone. So what do you want to tell me about that? 

33:27  Max: I will also just caveat: as a parent, this wouldn't have happened until at least the end of eighth grade. There would be things set up, including probably the custodial app that would have helped me limit that there's no social media that's going to be on this phone. But actually it might, if you're open to it, be more valuable to role play the conversation of the kid wanting a phone and how to say no. 

33:54  Leslie: I love that. Yeah, let's go with that. 

33:59  Max: And then in that case, why don't you lead the way?

34:02  Leslie: “Hey, my birthday is coming up, and my friends have gotten phones. I'm sort of like the last one, so I have to get a phone. Please, can I have a phone?”

34:13  Max: “I really want to hear what's happening for you. So you want a phone for…what? What do you want to do with it?”

34:18  Leslie: “My friends have phones. I want to be just like them. I don't want them to think that there's something wrong with me. So I want a phone like them.”

34:27  Max: “It really can be so hard to feel like we're left out and we're the only one who doesn't have something. So, all of the research says that the later that you get your first smartphone, the better your mental health is. So I'm nervous about that.”

34:40  Leslie: “I've already been bullied because I wear glasses. They look at me like maybe there's something wrong with me or I have trouble in school. So I just don't want to be left out. I want to be like everybody else.”

34:53  Max: “It sounds really hard. And I'm really proud of you for dealing with the hard things—that's really not easy to do. So you're being bullied at school. I'm so sorry to hear that. Do you want to tell me more about what's happening?”

35:05  Leslie: “When I got glasses, everybody made fun of me. And someone comes in and helps me in the classroom because I have trouble with math, and everybody knows it. So everybody sees me as something's wrong with me. I mean, there must be something wrong with me.”

35:22  Max: “I know for a fact that there is nothing wrong with you and that you are absolutely wonderful. And should we actually practice what happens when someone comes up and says mean stuff to you like that. Can I teach you some tricks about how to deal with that?”

35:33  Leslie: “I want a phone. That's all I want. I don't want to know what to do.”

35:38  Max: “Sometimes I just have to be the mean parent and say no, because I don't think it's time yet, and so that might be hard. And you have every right to rage and scream and be so mad about that. And I'm so here to do is, one, help you connect with your friends and make friends and have fun experiences. Two, I'm here to help you figure out what to do and deal with the people being mean to you. I am here for that.” 

“I can't right now feel good about my job as a parent keeping you safe and happy, and give you that device. I can give you for now…” breaking the fourth wall, depending on age, if they're in sort of like upper middle school at this point, “I can get you a device that allows you to text and call your friends. We can do something like that, but these smartphones and everything machines, it's just not smart for us to be giving it to you at that age, and so I can't do that for you, but I am totally happy to help you with any of those other things.”

36:26  Leslie: “Why can't I have a phone? I mean, I'll take one of those things that you're talking about, even though my friends have the real phones—those are the real phones. But why can't I?

36:38  Max: “Have you ever seen somebody get a smartphone and then watch their behavior totally change? Or watch them get so distant right after they got a smartphone?” 

36:49  Leslie: “No.”

36:51  Max: The answer would usually be Yes after that. “Well, I have noticed that when your cousin got their smartphone. They stopped really hanging out as much.”

36:59  Leslie: “Yeah, they don't play with me anymore.”

37:02  Max: “And this is a thing that happens at this young age, and I don't want it to happen to you. And we could say, no, it's just not going to happen to me, but we see it happening all the time. These things are very powerful. It can be very hard to feel good about how we're using them and our relationships with them. And you're in a time right now where you're learning so much about the world and about socializing and hanging out with friends.”

“And you might hate me for this, but I think the moments where it feels awkward and you're like, Oh, everyone has this, but I don't, I'm bored, I have to figure out what to do. That moment is making you a stronger, better human than people who are just able to just zone out and tune away and isolate themselves when they're feeling those things. So you have every right to be so mad at me for not giving into this, but this is an important skill, and I'm going to stand by this one.”

37:50  Leslie: Okay, I'm going to break us there, because what you're doing there is really so important, which is, as a parent, you're okay if your child's upset with you. That is so hard for so many parents, because they end up giving in because they don't like it when their child is upset with them. Our children are training us. They are behaviorally saying, I'm going to get really nasty and I'm going to be really upset if you don't give me what I want. They don't do it consciously, but that's the reaction, because if they get upset and they look like they're in pain, parents do not like that discomfort. So this is about parents sitting with their discomfort of saying no, and the child sitting with their discomfort of maybe not getting what they want.

So I really want to highlight that you are teaching something that is hard for parents. And sometimes, if you're going to be giving your kid a phone or having a conversation about this, or not giving them a phone, you need to prepare yourself. You need to practice this. This is not easy. This is really going to be a challenge. And learning to sit with that discomfort and sitting with your authority, which says, I am able to say no to you—not easy, but with compassion. You even said a few times, you're not going to like this. I love that line: No, you're not going to like this. I'm going to say no and I'm going to stick with it.

39:16  Max: And I've certainly heard stories from parents where they get the wrath. It can get much bigger than it got in this conversation, for sure. I think that skill set is one that I really value. Let's really lean into these emotions that you're having right now. That's okay. Let me hear it, and you can set your own boundaries of what you're tolerating of how kids are talking to you and saying, “I'm not willing to be spoken to with the language that you just used towards me. And there's going to be consequences in terms of saying that to me.” But the anger is so valid—if you want to pound a pillow, if you want to just literally scream in my face, you can do that. I'm here for your anger, but I'm not okay with those words,

40:09  Leslie: Yeah, that's a whole other piece—they can listen to other episodes in the podcast of how to be comfortable with their authority saying no, and when children are really, really upset, because guess what? Those emotions come and go. And I always tell parents, put on your seat belt before that conversation. It's not going to be an easy one. Put your seat belt on. Get ready for the roller coaster ride. It's going to be tough. And take a deep breath, because you're going to need it. 

So we role play those conversations, what we call validation, really hearing and understanding our children. So one of the things that I know I really focus on is the job of a parent. Parents often think they have to teach their children to do chores and be responsible, to listen to directions, and be kind, and all those great things. And those are all important, but one of the things I really think is a job as a parent is to make sure we teach our children who they are, to guide them into understanding themselves. And I think that there's some message that you're giving us that's also important here. Would you speak to that piece?

41:26  Max: That's, in some ways, the work of a lifetime for all of us, and I think helping them uncover and understand who they are and loving them and accepting them for exactly who that is feels of the utmost importance.

41:37  Leslie: And how does the technology piece teach us that?

41:41  Max: I think technology can so often get in the way of that, because it interferes in all of the very valuable moments that help us recognize and discover that. If at every moment of boredom and anxiety and loneliness we turn to this NC 17 movie, or this slot machine, then those rich moments of emptiness, where we get to do things that help us discover, feel what we're feeling, uncover what we really might want to do next, or of who we are, a person that we want to talk to, then we're getting in the way of having those moments of discovery. 

And so I think, in many ways, the phone can be a self-awareness blocker. It can also be an inspiration towards experience, but the real challenge is actually letting it be the inspiration towards experience, and then actually getting off and having that experience. And it's not designed to help you do that. It's designed to keep you there for as long as possible. So it takes a huge amount of awareness and effort to actually use it just as inspiration and then go off and do. And I think it's unrealistic to ask a middle schooler to be able to even do that. But yes, it can be a self-awareness blocker and experience blocker. And I think it's our job as parents to help facilitate more environments for actually meaningful experience and self-awareness.

42:56  Leslie: I love that. And so what I'm going to pick up on, which is when you talk to your child, if they say sort of what we did in the first one with the Snapchat, what are they getting out of it? What do they think they're getting. “Well, I'm finding out what my friend likes,” or I”'m talking to my friend.” How can we do that differently?

43:17  Max: And hitting that need underneath, where it's like, “Oh, great. I want you people to talk to your friends.” And especially with Snapchat, you can totally retort with, “Seems like you're just sending pictures of the floor. I know you love talking to your friends. I know you're good at conversations. Can we figure out where you can actually do that? Because it's not this.

43:37  Leslie: And so the last thing I want to say is, it's not like technology is bad—let's throw it away. It's: how do we live with it to survive and thrive in this modern world? So it's here. It's not going anywhere. We want to embrace the whole thing, but we need to understand: when does  this work, and when does it not work?

44:01  Max: And the only thing I'll add is, especially at the younger ages, all the parents who have waited to introduce this stuff are so glad that they did. I've never met a parent, “Man, I wish I introduced my kid to this stuff sooner.” I've been doing this for a long time. I haven't met a single parent who has that piece of feedback. It's always, “I wish I had waited longer, more time of actual childhood.” And where this stuff doesn't take over is really so valuable. So yes, it's here to stay, it's not going anywhere. But that doesn't mean that we just drop it in at these early ages, valuable time where it's not around and where it's not theirs goes a huge long way.

44:40  Leslie: And the idea that there is pressure to be with your friends and the idea that we can find substitutes. Do you want to speak just for a moment on some of those other substitutes? What do we replace social media with? What do we replace Snapchat with?

45:00  Max: I think that is one of the places that gets hardest for parents, because this is so prevalent. There are not as many…the mall that used to be the place everybody was going to hang out, the social spaces that naturally have communal gatherings of people their age, with downtime—those are not as prevalent as they once were. So finding the spaces where those do exist is really powerful. 

This is not necessarily financially accessible for everybody, but summer camp is one where they're all together. They don't have phones, they come back, they're like, “I don't miss it. That was great.” It creates a point of awareness in that way. Whatever it can be for creating those collective times where everybody is off of them together is really valuable. 

And then on the personal side of it, just checking in. What do I want to turn to? Help them figure it out. Have them try ten things, one thing each week, and let them hate seven of them and just figure out: All right, this is what I'm going to try to do. Instead of just scrolling on Tiktok, I'm going to do this. And at those young ages, figuring that out will go a long way for the future.

46:04  Leslie: That's a great idea. And I love experiments. So have a science experiment with your kid and say, “We're going to try this for two weeks, and let's see what happens.” Love that. So the last thing I want to say is, all of this is a lot of pressure. Parents get overwhelmed by the technology and then get overwhelmed by the information to get your kids off it. 

I think we're both saying, take a deep breath. Not everything has to happen all at once, but having your eyes wide open and being willing to try things is really important. We want to acknowledge how overwhelming this is, how hard it is. But to start with small steps, I’ve got to say, last night I made a small step, because one of the things I did is…my phone is in my bedroom. And I know you said, “Get the phones out of the bedroom.” But then I have it, and so I am not modeling very well. Last night, I went to bed, put the phone down immediately, without bringing it into bed with me, and I read my book, which I have every night. But when I don't read my book and I scroll on my phone, I don't feel good. And it was your words in my head that said, How does it make you feel? But it was really delightful to say that's not going to make me feel good. Reading my book is really what I want. 

So I’ve got to say that, again, I practice what I preach. It was really enjoyable last night, and I'm going to keep practicing. And people listening, please go listen to your storytelling, your poetry. I was just floating on air as I listened to you. You're really quite a talent, and it's quite an honor to be able to hear you put your words out there. 

47:51  Max: Well, that means a lot to me on all fronts. 

47:53  Leslie: I'm going to have everything in the show notes. Where do people follow you?

47:58  Max: On socialawakening.org is where those resources are. There's something on there called The Kin which is the parent community. I'm still sort of figuring out exactly what the right direction for that is. Right now, there are monthly calls that people can come on and just talk about the stuff or ask questions, as well as all the resources that are on there, and a video of my talk to parents that has all the information. I'm not sure exactly how that'll evolve over time. And wordsthatmove.com is the source of the poetry. I have a new show that I'm figuring out what to do with next. Hopefully there'll be another live run in New York. But those are my worlds. And I hope something said here plants a good seed. Little steps are good. It's all we can ask for. 

48:40  Leslie: Well, thank you for being out in the world, sharing this information, connecting to kids, connecting to parents. That's what you're doing, and that will make a difference. So thank you for that. Thanks for this conversation.

48:52  Max: Thank you. You too. Leslie.

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

48:57  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: I want to thank Max again for being here today. As always, you can find links to everything we talked about, including where to find more information about his work in our show notes. And this week, keep in mind what Max said, and change your approach with your kids, from getting off your phone to, How does it make you feel to be on your phone? 

Next week, we're going to stay on this topic of technology when we meet Karen, a mother of three kids with three different personalities who need three different approaches for dealing with technology.

You can subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen Rubury. Thanks so much for listening. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury