Karen Part 1 of 3: Tailoring Technology Strategies To Fit Your Child’s Needs

In today’s session you will meet Karen who has three kids, 10 year old Kate, 8 year old Vivian, and 5 year old Owen and asks Leslie the question of how to get her kids off technology. . Answering that question, means assessing what’s going on and then tailoring the strategies to each individual child.  This session also focuses on helping parents feel comfortable with their own authority while maintaining mutual respect with your child.and how not to personalize your child’s big emotions.

Time Stamps

4:10 The unstructured nature of summer and its challenges

5:00 The dialectic perspective of the strong-willed children

8:15 Reasons how you diminish your authority as a parent

• Wait till the father steps in
• Feeling like your children push your buttons
• Giving children too many choices
• Mom doesn’t mean what she says 

12:45 Create individual strategies for dealing with technology for your individual kids

14:35 Don’t give into the “fairness game”

• Validate and move on rather than dismiss and move on

16:35 Family meeting where everyone has a chance to be heard

17:25 Teaching children to manage “Technology Time”

18:25 Fair is not the same as equal

18:45 The definition of a “bad” parent -When parents personalize their child’s anger 

21:19 Change your perspective and your interpretations

• My son is having strong emotions
• My son is getting to know his anger
• My son is feeling disappointment

24:47 Parents can unintentionally reinforce a child’s emotional reactivity

25:55 Cope Ahead Skill - Help a child learn what they can do differently next time instead of shaming them

28:35 How to establish personal power and agency for your children that is effective 

30:21 Working on developing mutual respect 

33:18 Observe and describe your child’s behavior nonjudgmentally

34:33 Explaining fairness, equanimity and sameness with a metaphor

38:05 Create structure in the day to help children manage technology time 

41:44 Understanding what it means to be comfortable with authority

Leslie-ism: Say what you mean and mean what you say

Resources:  

Horton Hatches An Egg by Dr Seuss read aloud on video

For a full transcript of this episode and more information about the host visit https://lesliecohenrubury.com/podcasts/ . You can also follow Leslie’s work on Facebook,  Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Join the conversation with your own questions and parenting experiences.

Credits: Is My Child a Monster? is produced by Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and Leslie Cohen-Rubury. Theme music is by L-Ray Music. Graphics and Website Design by Brien O’Reilly. Transcriptions by Eric Rubury.  A special thanks to everyone who contributes their wisdom and support to make this possible.

Transcript

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

0:03  Karen: My oldest one will be like, “Oh, I'm finishing a game.” My middle one will kind of sneak away and get some more time. And then my youngest, he just will get angry anyway, so he's just trying not to listen to me

 0:21  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Setting limits around technology is hard, especially with three children who react in three different ways. And yet, that's my point: Each child, whether you have one or three kids, needs to be seen as the individual they are. That way, the strategies and communication that you use will be more effective. This is, Is My Child A Monster?, a parenting skills podcast where you get to listen in as real parents and caregivers share their trials and tribulations in coaching sessions recorded live. I'm your host, Leslie Cohen-Rubury. And no, your child is not a monster, just misunderstood. 

In last week's special episode with technology expert Max Stossel, we talked about what the phone is doing to your child's brain and about understanding your child's perspective as a very important strategy for making any changes. In this episode, we continue on the theme of communication, but we add the element of looking at our children as individuals, so that our strategies and communication are specific to each child. 

Today we meet Karen, who has three kids, ten-year-old, Kate, eight-year-old Vivian and five-year-old Owen. They each have very different ways of reacting to limits around technology. The oldest tries to use logic to push back. The middle just avoids the problem. And the youngest is reactive, often with anger. And that's not just with technology. These behaviors carry through with all kinds of limit setting, so understanding each child will help Karen parent more effectively. 

So now, as a reminder, all of the names and identifying information have been changed, and though I'm a licensed clinical social worker, this show is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapeutic intervention. 

So let's begin. 

2:27  Leslie: Hi Karen, good morning.

2:29  Karen: Good morning. Leslie, how are you today? 

2:34  Leslie: I'm doing well. So, you're feeling like there's a lot going on, is that right? 

2:39  Karen: Yes, definitely. So, I have three kids, and I've listened to your podcast, so I know you have a wealth of information. However, I can learn from you—I'm very excited for it.

2:50  Leslie: Okay, so why don't you describe what you want to discuss first today?

2:56  Karen: Perfect. So my question for you, really, is limits on technology. I have, kind of, three strong personalities, and I just find that it's becoming more of a battle every day to stop them from either their iPad or the TV. And they all have different needs. One considers something fair if they're on it and not fair, and especially with my son, he gets very angry after I have to stop technology. We're in Florida, and we're gearing up for the summer, and I just know this is going to be something that I want to get prepared for, and speak to an expert about.

3:37  Leslie: Well, I'm going to go over the parenting aspects of it. There are different technology experts out there. It is not my expertise. But because we're going to look at it very holistically, I think there's a lot that might help you. Because you're looking forward to the summer, where it sounds more stressful…can you clarify why it's more stressful in the summer?

4:01  Karen: During the school week, they're very good at getting up, no technology, getting out of the house early. And then they go to an after-school program and sports. So it's evenings, weekends. But in the summer, we lose all that routine. And I know in the mornings they're going to go into that whole debate and wanting technology and fighting over it.

4:25  Leslie: So in the summer, when school's over, you have a lot of free time with the kids, and it's much more unstructured.

4:35  Karen: I anticipate that. So they're usually in camps, but we haven't really structured as many camps as we normally do, and it's not going to be as early getting out of the house as it is during the school year.

4:47  Leslie: Let's sort of start there and unpack that, because the first thing I heard you say is that you have…maybe all three, strong personalities—your children have strong personal qualities. Does that come from you and your husband? 

5:02  Karen: Yes.

[Laughter]

5:04  Leslie: And is that something—'m saying this in a way that I don't really mean—do you want to get rid of that quality?

5:15  Karen: I mean, I can see the benefits of it. But yes, when it comes to being, kind of, listening and getting off and being more respectful to my demands. [Laughter] Yes.

5:27  Leslie: You wish they weren't so strong willed. Okay, so that's the first thing I want to say, because every child has their strengths and that same incredible, wonderful quality that you love in them, that's going to serve them well later in life, could be very, very frustrating when they're younger and when they're growing up, or when you have to deal with them. So we want to first look at that quality of being strong personality, strong-willed as dialectic; that it's a beautiful strength, it's a wonderful quality, and it's going to frustrate you. So it frustrates you. What about it frustrates you is that they don't do what you want them to do when you want them to do it.

6:17  Karen: Exactly. Yes. I feel like they listen to me, even though I don't know how much they're even hearing when I say, “Okay, we're getting ready to stop.” “Okay, it's been this time.” And then finally, I have to loop in my husband, who gets them off, so I feel like they're not listening to me specifically.

6:35  Leslie: So let's start there. Actually, I want to talk about that pattern. And then I also want to go back to the idea that you said, during the school year, they get up, they go to school, they come home—when they're structured, it works. You don't have to fight with them. And there are some families, believe me, that are fighting before school and before dinner, and every minute that the child is home they're already on technology. So somehow, you or your husband or together, you have set up the structure that there's no technology in the morning: you're going to get up, you're going to get ready for school, you're going to go to school. How did that get established?

7:18  Karen: Yes. So I would say my oldest, Kate—we say we're so grateful for that—she loves going to school, so she's always set the tone. She wakes up. She's happy when she wakes up, she gets herself dressed, she's ready for the bus. They play tag at the bus stop. From the get go, she's always been that way. So she's set the tone for the family, where they all kind of follow on that. So she definitely can be a leader. And we are grateful because she does get them out of the house, and she never wants to be late. And that's her.

7:58  Leslie: Okay. She never wants to be late. And she has this momentum that's very contagious, and the kids, the other two, follow—that's great to know. So we know when there's structure, there's a possibility that they follow that. Then you said, if they're on technology, if it's evening or weekends or whatever, you try to get them off. And you then go to your husband. He gets them off, and you feel like they don't listen to you. 

8:27  Karen: Yes.

8:28  Leslie: You have definitely created a little problem for yourself. Do you know what that is?

8:36  Karen: They're just waiting for him, probably. 

8:39  Leslie: Yes. You've given away your authority to your husband, because, for some reason, he might be more effective at getting them off. So it makes total sense to me that you're doing what works. It's like, This is not working. They're not getting off for me. I'm calling my husband in, he's going to do it. But the unintended consequence of that is a Catch-22 because now you've diminished your own sense of authority. Why would they listen to you? They know—they wait until Daddy comes in. What's Daddy's approach? What's your husband's approach? 

9:16  Karen: I guess he doesn't give them so many options to stop. They know when he's called in that it's time. So he's kind of more firm. And then he will be like, “Okay, it's tickles,” or something. He'll do something fun. Where I'm like, “Okay, let's go five minutes,” and I start getting mad at them. He can switch it and, “We're done. I'll chase you upstairs. We're done.” 

9:39  Leslie: Would you agree that it sort of sounds like a little bit of a lighter touch or a distracting touch? He uses some distraction, whereas, understandably, you get frustrated, and they hear the frustration. 

9:56  Karen: Yes, exactly. 

9:57  Leslie: Okay, so when you said you give them too many options—”Okay, it's a five minute warning. Okay, you can do this”—you give them a lot of options. That's a second way that you decrease your authority. Do you know the Dr Seuss book, Horton Hatches The Egg? 

10:17  Karen: No.

10:18  Leslie: Okay, that's your homework. You're going to go home and read Horton Hatches The Egg, because Horton says, “I meant what I said, and I said what I meant, an elephant's faithful, one hundred percent.” I love the mantra that Horton has, that he is going to sit on the egg, because, I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. I noticed, when I was a parent, that if I meant what I said, my kids did it, and when I didn't really mean what I say, they didn't do it. 

So let me give you an example. I could say, “We're leaving the house,” and if I was out of the house, they knew that I meant that, they knew I was serious. They would be out of the door as well. But if I said, “You’ve got to empty the laundry basket,” I don't know why but I guess I didn't mean it, and they never did it. And so my strategy after the third or fourth or fifth day of them not emptying the laundry basket, because I kept saying it, “Do it, Do it.” And I was driving myself nuts asking them to do it, but I never meant it. Finally, I would say, “Tonight, I mean it. Tonight, what I mean is that the laundry basket will need to get done before you go to bed. So I'm sure you're going to be tired and want to go to bed, and the laundry basket needs to be done before you go to bed.” Now I meant it, which meant they weren't getting in their bed. And I never had to actually follow through. To be very honest, I never had to keep one of my children up, but I would have, I was prepared. They heard it in my voice. I didn't have to get mean. I didn't have to get nasty. I just had to mean what I say.

11:59  Karen: That sounds reasonable.

12:03  Leslie: Children are very sensitive. Children have this amazing ability to sense, When does my parent mean it? When do they not mean it? As a matter of fact, in therapy, over the years, I've asked kids how many times does Mom have to call you to dinner, or how many times does Mom have to say, “Go do your homework” before you really do it? And they come up with an exact number. “Oh, it's seven times. Mom will scream at us on the seventh time. So I know I have seven times.” Is that the funniest thing you ever heard? Why does it take you seven times to mean what you say? So how can you put that into practice?

12:43  Karen: So should I set a timer for an hour and be like, when that timer is off, tonight I mean it, we're going up, there's no more? Because my oldest one will be like, “Oh, I'm finishing a game.” My middle one will kind of sneak away and get some more time. And then my youngest, well, he just will get angry anyway. So he's just trying not to listen to me.

13:06  Leslie: I love that they all have three different approaches. One will say, “Can I have one more minute,” which seems so reasonable. The other one will do what you say, but then sneak back to get a little more time. Is that right?

13:18  Karen: Yes, she'll kind of wander off. She will get off—probably the most obedient—but she will sneak away so that, like, I'm not talking to her. So she can kind of be in the corner where the other two have to get off first, and then I'll go find her last

13:34  Leslie: Interesting. And then the youngest just gets angry, and you have that to deal with. So because they're individuals, I'd actually like to treat them individually. So the rule might be, everyone gets off technology, but I'm not saying that that's the best approach. Do you think getting them off all at the same time is a good approach? Or if the youngest one actually goes to bed a half hour early, do you want to get him off at a different time than you get the girls off? Do you want to do it individually?

14:10  Karen: They get very hung up on the-other-got-more-why-am-I-getting-off-earlier? So if someone's on technology, they feel like that goes into their own time on technology.

14:26  Leslie: That brings me back to technology, but it also comes up with other issues, maybe with treats or special things. 

14:36 Karen: Yes, a hundred per cent.

14:38  Leslie: Fairness is very common for children, and some kids have what I call the “fairness gene,” because they really care about being fair. But I don't necessarily feel that we need to give in to the fairness gene. Parents try very, very, very hard to make things fair for their children—I understand why. Number one, it feels like that's fair. And number two, it makes you uncomfortable for them to yell at you, “It's not fair!” as though you're doing something wrong.

15:13  Karen: We try to say that life is not fair. That's how it is. Things are going to happen. I try to make a point, when they talk about fairness, just kind of dismiss it and be like, “Yep, that's that's how it works out.” But my middle one in particular is very caught up on fair and unfair, and so that's definitely her.

15:32  Leslie: So I'm going to stick a quick little aside in about fairness. When she says it, or any of them, once in a blue moon you can say life is not fair, but then drop it. They're going to hear that message, and then you want to dismiss it. I would validate, “Yeah, this really is not fair,” and then move on. Validate: “Yeah. I know this does not feel fair to you,” and then you can move on. Once in a while, she might want to have more of a discussion about fairness, and we can do that, but generally it's: validate and move on, rather than dismiss and move on. 

So back to getting them off that technology. I was thinking that I would say to them, “Look, we have had a rule where I get everyone off technology at the same time. I'm going to change that rule.” First of all, do you have family meetings?

16:36  Karen: Yes, I would say at night. I mean, it's not very formalized, but we can definitely make that…

16:43  Leslie: It doesn't have to be formalized, like every-Sunday-at-five-o'clock -we're-gonna-have-family-meeting. It certainly can be. It is a way to say, Hey, there's a lot of thoughts and personalities and ways of going about things in this household, so let's sit down and make sure everybody has a chance to be heard. That's the point of a family meeting—everyone has a chance to be heard. 

And you might bring up, “Hey, so far, we've always had a rule where everyone gets off at the same time. I would like to change that rule. But I'm okay letting you all bank a different amount of technology hours, and you can manage your own technology just like I'm going to eventually teach you to manage your own money. Maybe you want to manage your own technology time, especially as we go into the summer.” I think your everybody off technology during the school week might make sense, because so much has to go on during the week. But in the summer…I think you're going to have to try this out. I don't know that this is the best idea, but I would say maybe we get them to understand that they're going to manage their technology time.

17:53  Karen: Yes. And my oldest, she knows when she has sports she doesn't get as much technology. And because she is kind of the leader, I could see if she wants to take the directive with this: finish her game, bank it for a different game, do stuff like that. Maybe she could help.

18:13  Leslie: So that's one idea where you figure out what's reasonable. I like to break the idea that fair is not the same as equal. We're going to do what works for each person and for each person at different ages. And so now we start understanding that we're treating each child individually around this issue of technology. Now let's go back to the fact that your five year old gets angry when he has to get off technology. Does it upset you when your children, especially with him, get angry?

18:52  Karen: Yes, and that's why I've listened to so many of your podcasts. [Laughter] So, we've talked about the wise mind and the emotion mind. And I've talked about when I've been in emotion mind, so he knows, you know, Mommy's been in that way, too. And afterwards you can rationalize with him, and he knows he gets angry; but in that heat of the moment, he's like, “I'm angry because of you,” because I took it away,

19:21  Leslie: So what do you do? First, let me ask you, how does it make you feel when he's angry, yelling at you and saying “you're mean, you're bad, it's your fault”? What goes on inside of you?

19:34  Karen: I feel like a bad parent. 

19:37  Leslie: Hmm. That's your definition of a bad parent…

19:40  Karen: I mean, when a child's yelling at you and irate, it doesn't make you feel good.

19:45  Leslie: I agree it doesn't feel good. But I don't agree, I really disagree with you, strongly disagree with you, that that's what makes you a bad parent. That actually is the definition of a parent. That you can witness your child yell, scream, be angry, be happy, be sad, be grieving. That's what a parent has to bear. All of it.

20:18  Karen: That makes sense.

20:20  Leslie: So the first thing is, if you felt, when your child is yelling at you, pointing a finger, saying you are the mean one, you are the bad one, you made me do this and it's you, you, you, you, that you understand you're just witnessing…You want to finish my sentence? What are you witnessing?

20:41  Karen: A five year old having a meltdown.

20:44  Leslie: Right. And I don't care if it's a five-year-old or a 55-year-old; if someone is yelling at me, and I know that they have the worst headache, that they're starving, that something's wrong with them, and they're yelling at me, it's not because I'm a bad person, it's because that's how they're responding in this moment. And I might feel really very sad for them, or I might be upset for them, but I'm not going to take it on. 

So yes, a five-year-old or a ten-year-old or your whatever, when they get angry with you, I want you to change that framework, change the way you see it. And instead of interpreting it as I'm a bad parent, this means I'm a bad parent to My son is having strong emotions. My son is getting to know anger. My son is getting to know what it feels like to be disappointed. Do you want to raise a child to understand his emotions? 

21:46  Karen: Yes.

21:47  Leslie: Then we have to turn this around and say, “You're expressing your anger and you're expressing your disappointment.”

21:58  Karen: Definitely makes sense.

22:00  Leslie: And we can teach him to be more accurate, because You made me do this, you made me angry, that is actually not accurate. It's an inaccurate statement of anger. But that's anger. An accurate statement of anger is, I don't like when someone tells me to get off technology. 

You can do a number of things here. When he's angry, you can say—here's the validation, and here's teaching him accurate communication—”You don't like it when I tell you to get off technology. You're disappointed that you can't keep playing. You're angry that you can't keep playing.” So you validate. “That's your anger, talking buddy, I get it.” And now I'm going to use some of your husband's lightness, and say, “Oh, my goodness, that's anger. Does your anger have a name? “Yeah, that's Kevin. Kevin is really angry.” Okay, so now let's talk to Kevin and ask Kevin how long does Kevin need to be angry. 

So however you want to do it, there's many, many ways, and I would try a variety of ways. But the way that is not working for you or for him is when you say, I'm a bad parent. How do you think that will change your interactions with him?

23:20  Karen: Yes, it makes it not about me, but I can be an observer of him and try to get in his brain. Because it overwhelms me, seeing him get so mad, and it's taken out towards me. So obviously, I've interpreted that for myself, but it's him,

23:39  Leslie: Right. So here we are dealing with technology, and what I'm really saying is, yes, there's a technology issue. Oh my goodness. It's a pain. It's difficult. That part's not going away, because technology is not going away. But what can change is how you feel and how he learns in the process about getting off technology, which is, I'm going to learn to handle my anger, I'm going to learn to handle disappointment, and I'm going to learn to handle not getting what I want. That is fantastic. 

24:15  Karen: Great life skills. 

24:17  Leslie: Great life skills. So it's your job to frame it as, Okay, this is going to teach us life skills, as opposed to—this is how I used to sound—I hate this technology. It's like we just hate it. So instead of just hating it, you're going to start to find a way to reframe it as he's learning his emotions. He's learning to name them, and you're going to name some of those emotions, and it's not going to be about you. 

The one little thing I want to say that when he got angry, and then you personalized it, then he has power, because that would upset you. And he says, Look how powerful I am. I just got Mommy upset. I didn't realize I was such a powerful person. He's not saying that in his head, but that's the behavioral interaction of he gets angry,you get upset, that reinforces: anger gets me power. 

25:16  Karen: He's getting my reaction. 

25:17  Leslie: He's getting your reaction. Exactly. If anger doesn't get that reaction, then he's going to learn: What is it telling me?, as opposed to, How can I have power over somebody?

25:28  Karen: Totally makes sense. 

25:32  Leslie: That goes back to your idea that your child's going to get upset. And you said, yourself, that after he gets upset, he then becomes a little bit more reasonable. He gets back into what we call his wise mind, and then he can say, “Yes, I got angry,” and all that. 

Let's not make too big of a deal of it. Once in a while I would go back and say, “Do you want to do something different next time?” I don't want to shame him and say, “Why do you do that? Why do you do that? Why do you always do that?” I want to look forward and say, “You are welcome to do that again. I'm going to ask you every night to get off your technology. And you can get angry every night, or you might want to think, What else can I do?” So now we're asking him to think ahead, cope ahead, and say, Is there another way I want to handle that disappointment when Mommy tells me to get off technology?

26:23  Karen: He has brought up—because I was trying to have him do chores—paying him some money. He's like, “Will you pay me $2 if I don't get angry?” What do you think about that? [Laughter] Bribery.

26:35  Leslie: That's a big topic. The answer is: no. But I would validate his clever ingenuity. Like, “Yeah, you're a businessman, very smart. That's a way of making money. That's not the way we're going to make money in this household. But I like the way you're thinking.” So I’d validate that he's thinking about it and he's trying to be clever, and I'd move right on. 

The truth is, it won't work for long. And it doesn't teach him to handle disappointment or his anger. It only teaches him how to get money. We don't necessarily need to teach him how to get money. We do want to teach him to handle his anger and disappointment.

27:23  Karen: Perfect.

[Music: Stand in the Forest by Folk Acoustic]

27:36  Leslie: So who do you want to do next? Vivian or Kate?

27:42  Karen: Maybe Kate. So she's the one that's like, two-more-minutes-one-more-game. She always, since she was little, is always, “Just a little bit more time,” and eventually she stops. But it's not in the minute or two minutes.

27:56  Leslie: Okay, is it twenty minutes or is it three minutes or four minutes? Is it reasonable?

28:02  Karen: It's to the point of me getting mad at her again, getting upset and getting everybody off. So sometimes I would say, less likely she'll stop, because it's really a game that she's in and it is three minutes. But usually she's pushing the boundary and starting another something else.

28:18  Leslie: Okay, so once again, I'm hearing that your child has figured out how you get upset. And as you said, she's pushing the boundary. So we want to take away you getting upset, so that we don't give that power to our children, that they have power over us in a way that's not effective. We want them to have a sense of personal agency, which is personal power, but we don't want them to have power over us. And Owen has figured it out, because when he gets angry, he can say, “You're bad,” so to speak. 

And for Kate, she's figured out by just going a little further and going a little further, because then Mom comes in and gets angry. So again, I want to see what's effective. I'm not saying this is the only answer or the right answer, but what happens if you experiment for about a month and you say to Kate, time's up. And she says, “I just need another minute.” And say, “Great, you have another minute. I'll see you upstairs,” but you do not come down, and you do not look for her, and you do not re-engage. 

And even if the first time is 20 minutes, don't say a word. I just wonder if she's, as you said, pushing the limits to get more Mommy time. Get more of you engaged with her. They'll take Mommy time—happy, sad, angry or anything. And I want to know, if we don't reinforce, I'm going to come back, is she going to get off. If we did this to Owen, he wouldn't get off, he'd just stay there, right? But I hear that Kate is different, and Kate doesn't want to be late to the bus, you said. So Kate is a little bit more of a rule follower, so that when you say, “I'm going to be upstairs,” or, “Come get me when you're off,” but you don't get her, I would let her know that you're changing the rules. Like, “Kate, I always come in and tell you it's time to get off. I actually want to respect the fact that when you say two more minutes that you say what you mean, and mean what you say. So I'm going to leave you and I'm going to expect to see you, because that's a new relationship I want to create. I want to respect your words, because I expect you to respect my words.” 

And so now we're elevating this idea that I have mutual respect for you. And not that she's going to give it back, but that ends up happening when we do show our children respect. So I would be curious. You have to try it for about three weeks, because she's going to do it. Then it's going to be testing where it's going to not work. And then you just have to work through what's called this extinction burst where it gets worse, and then it'll get better. And then you have the system where you say, she says one more minute, and she actually gets off. 

We might need to go back and try another one. Another one would be, “Great. I'm going to stand here while you finish up your minute or two.” And then she's got you. You've got a hand on her back. You're watching her. You're getting engaged and saying, “Oh, just show me where this good place to stop is.” So now you're reinforcing a very positive. You're doing what she said, and you're there. You're giving her attention for something that you do actually want to reinforce, which is her getting off, as opposed to her pushing the boundaries. So either one of those approaches. There's absolutely nothing wrong with standing next to her, putting a hand on her back and say, “Yeah, I'll watch you play your last minute or two, see what's going on.”

32:14  Karen: I think she would like both of those.

32:18  Leslie: And these can be discussed individually or in this family meeting. And as I said in the family meeting, if you do different things with each child, they're seeing that they're being treated individually. And although they may complain, “That's not fair,” it speaks very deeply to their individuality. And every child has a need to be seen as significant, important as an individual.

32:43  Karen: Great. 

32:44  Leslie: Okay, let's do Vivian.

32:45  Karen: Yes. She's more of a rule follower, but she's the big fairness. It's not fair if her brother gets more time, it's not fair…Specifically, her brother, she gets a little bent out of shape with him because he doesn't have any homework or anything. So she often feels like he gets away with more because he's younger. So she will say it, but like I said, she kind of sneaks away into a different room, closes the door, so she's last to be found.

33:13  Leslie: So I would name it. I would describe those things very non-judgmentally, just state the facts. “I notice that when I say it's time to go off, you end up in another room. I find you in the TV room, or I find you in the living room. Do you realize you do that?” So again, I would elevate her emotional intelligence about what is…this is her mindful awareness of what her behavior is. You can't change behavior if you're not aware of behavior. 

So I would name it. “Wow. I notice you do this or do that. Here's what's working for me. When you leave, I focus on the other two, but when you leave, I have to come find you. So let's talk about how you and I want to work on you getting off technology. Let's develop a plan between you and I, because I can find you in the other room. If that feels better to you, I can address you first, and you could brainstorm a number of ideas. I can get the other two off, and you stay there, and then I come to you. So actually you would be getting a minute or two more than your brother and your sister.” 

And then she has to go, “Wait a minute. That's not fair to them.” because she's always saying that. Say, “Yes, I know I'm doing things differently because I want to treat each of you individually. Again, a topic to come up at the family meeting maybe is that I'm going to change the way I've been treating you all the same and start treating you with equanimity. I'm going to give you what you need and treat you with the fairness of what you need, not the sameness of what you all have.” 

“An example of that would be, let's say people had different allergies in the family. If I treated you all exactly the same, I would need to do everything the same. Everyone gets peanuts and ice cream, but treating you with equanimity, each of you individually says you get no nuts, you get non-dairy ice cream, and you get nuts and ice cream. Now I see you as individuals. Now it's actually equal, not the same, but equal, because I'm treating you with individual respect.” So they don't have to understand that, but you can share that kind of metaphor. 

And then finally, getting back to Vivian, in terms of her doing that, I'd want to understand more. I think it's this fairness thing that you're talking about that she just wants a little extra. And the fact that she's sneaky, I bet that's going to come up in one of our sessions again, where we talk about the sneaky behavior. Because I just want to understand…the funny thing is, she's trying to be an individual by sneaking away. She's trying to be an individual. So I think she wants that, and right now for purposes of today, I would do a lot of validation, which is when she says it's not fair that he has less homework…What would you say if you're going to try to validate that?

36:35  Karen: I hear you're frustrated about the homework and he's younger than you. I mean…

36:44  Leslie: And for her sake, leave off the end. Just the validation, which was great, where you said it feels unfair that he gets less homework. Sometimes you might even say, “I bet you wish you were five years old and still didn't get homework, because you're eight and you're getting homework. So my guess is you want to be him. So, in what ways do you want to be the five-year-old? In what ways do you want to be an eight-year-old? Good,

37:14  Karen: She would like that. 

37:18  Leslie: Because, guess what? When I'm 80, there are ways that I want to be a 20-year-old, and there are ways that I don't want to be a 20-year-old. So she's going to have the same thing. She wants to be the five-year-old because she doesn't want homework. But she doesn't want to be the five-year-old who has to go to bed early or who can't swim without his life jacket.

37:39  Karen: Yeah, can't have sleepovers, all those things. 

37:43  Leslie: Just having conversations and acknowledging, “Yeah, I bet you wish you could have no homework. Well, if I had a magic wand…” and I've shared this one before in episodes…”if I had a magic wand, I would make you have no homework.” 

Okay, there's a lot more to say about technology. But what I want to do to wrap up for today is I want to give you a homework assignment: What kind of structure would you like this summer, that will reduce the technology use your kids have? So instead of thinking, How do I get them off, how do I get them off? How do I get them off? I want you to think about, Are we going to have reading time as a family? Am I going to do a family read where we get one book that we sit down and I read to everyone on a picnic blanket outside? Or are we going to have water time where everybody has to make up a water activity? And it's like a Science Day, but everybody comes with their science project. 

I don't want it to be exhausting for you, but I want you to think about ways that you could put structure. There needs to be play time—what's going to be in your play time? It's funny, now that I think about it, I think I did this last summer. But I'm definitely going to do this this summer, because I spent three weeks with my grandchildren, and they love their technology. But if I create a schedule with them, and they fill out the schedule, like, are we going to do bike riding? Are we going to go to the park? Are we going to go for ice cream? What are we putting on our schedule? Now I don't have to fight them with technology “You can only have an hour of technology today.” Rather, I say, “Oh, look at all the things we get to do,” because that works for them during the school year, when they go to school,

39:30  Karen: And if they take more ownership over those activities, then that will be a win. Because it's usually me being like, “Okay, get off and do this.” And so they're already in a bad state to move to that next activity.

39:43  Leslie: Exactly. And you might have…the older one likes to have ideas—that's how she gets them all to the bus stop. The younger one might have some ideas for everybody. And sometimes they do things together, and sometimes they do things individually. One might want more technology time in the morning, the other one might want more technology time in the evening, which goes back to that idea of, maybe you'll have them manage their own technology bank. 

40:11  Karen: Yeah, that would work.

40:12  Leslie: Just a few ideas. Again, it's not that they're the right ideas, it's that you're looking for what works for all of you. Sometimes they need to be tweaked, but you've got a lot of takeaways today in terms of not personalizing it. Saying what you mean, reading Horton Hatches The Egg, and getting that mantra underneath that says, I mean what I say and I say what I mean. Doesn't mean they're going to listen, but it does mean that you're going to feel different about it. And a few of the other ideas that you get to practice and think about, and then we'll come back and find out how that worked and go on to the next ideas.

40:54  Karen: This has been great. Thank you, Leslie. I appreciate it. I wrote all these notes down so I'm excited to try them and keep them in mind. 

41:02  Leslie: Thank you. 

41:03  Karen: Take care.

[Music: Outro Nature Walk by Folk Acoustic]

41:12  Leslie Cohen-Rubury: Finishing up with Karen, I gave her homework like I give many parents homework that I work with. Because when you go home and practice, that's where you get to incorporate the strategies and skills that I talk about. So homework is really important, not just for your kids in school, for you as parents, as you're trying to change behaviors. 

And the other thing that I really want to focus on with Karen, who just showed up so willing to be open to my ideas and strategies, was when I touched on a very vulnerable moment of asking her if she's comfortable with her authority. What does that mean when I say to someone, are you comfortable with your authority? Well, as I spoke about in this episode, being comfortable with saying no to your child—I mean, that's what we do when we have to set limits with our children. 

We have to get them off technology, we have to get them out of the house. We have to ask them to do things they don't want to do. And we don't need to power over our children, but we need to be comfortable with our personal power. We need to be comfortable with the idea that it's okay for us to say no to our children. That doesn't mean we're a bad parent because they get upset. And so saying no means we are doing what's effective, and then we've got to live with the results of that. 

So that means you've got to be okay if your child doesn't like hearing no. Who does? It's disappointment. It's not getting what you want. It's your child being uncomfortable. Those are all good reasons why your child's not going to be comfortable with you telling them no and setting limits. 

The key is to not personalize it. The key is to find another interpretation—one of our DBT skills—to look at the situation from another perspective. So we talked about changing her perspective in the way she sees and interprets her son's angry behavior and those mean words that he says to her. Those are really important takeaways for this week. And remember, what we did was we just assessed what's going on, which gives us understanding. We then get to go to problem solving and figuring out what to do. And I'm really excited to see what Karen comes back with next session.

This week, remember: Say what you mean and mean what you say. 

[Music: The Wilds Beyond by L-Ray Music]

And join us next week, where we address an all too common kids-fighting-in-the-store scenario, and what to do when there's a child you don't want your kids to play with.

You can subscribe to Is My Child A Monster? wherever you get your podcasts. And please rate and review to help spread the word. You can also find a full transcript of this episode or sign up for my newsletter at ismychildamonster.com. The Is My Child A Monster? team is Alletta Cooper, Camila Salazar, and me. Special thanks to Eric Rubury. Our theme music is by L-Ray Music. I'm Leslie Cohen Rubury. Thanks for joining me. 

Transcribed by Eric Rubury