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Teds thoughts with Dylan Murray - the evolution of hospitality.

• Ted Schama • Season 5 • Episode 1

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What makes a space feel like home before you’ve even set down your bag? We sit with Dylan Murray to chart a rare career that connects five-star rigour, high-growth innovation, and the human heartbeat of hospitality—from running dishes at The Landmark to shaping openings at One Aldwych and Carlisle Bay, from the rocket fuel years at Soho House to reimagining flexible workspace with The Office Group, and now building Mason & Fifth’s thoughtful approach to flexible living.

Dylan pulls back the curtain on the details that guests rarely notice but always feel. He explains how invisible design turns a journey into flow, why the right coffee partner can anchor a building’s culture, and how small rituals—recognising a midweek commuter, a favourite fruit bowl, a familiar studio category—create loyalty without points. We explore the hard-won lessons of entrepreneurship through a neighbourhood restaurant and pubs, facing the 2008 crash, and learning to protect quality when scale and spreadsheets tempt shortcuts.

We then dive into Mason & Fifth’s one-minute city: studios that flex from a single night to a year, wellness spaces that invite daily use, a considered restaurant partnership, and work lounges that earn their keep as social commons. Dylan shares the guardrails for growth—keep a small-core mentality, hire for character, and ask everyone to bring the best version of themselves. The result is a home-away-from-home that cares as much about lighting and acoustics as it does about names and needs.

If you’re curious about how hospitality evolves—co-living, amenity-rich buildings, community without a membership fee—this conversation offers a playbook grounded in craft and culture. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves great spaces, and leave a review with the one detail that makes you feel instantly at home.

Setting The Mission Of One Voice

SPEAKER_01

Hi, I'm Ted Sharmer, founder of One Voice Hospitality. I spent over three decades in hospitality, but what's always mattered most to me are the people and the characters behind the businesses. Hospitality is built on conversation, trust, and relationships. And One Voice exists to bring these conversations together across the industry. There are big wins, real struggles, and a lot that doesn't get said out loud. I want to share these stories with you. Over the series, I'll be talking to some of the industry's leading figures. That's why I point to my guests, by the way. Hearing how they've built, adapted, raised capital, and told their stories and navigated change. If you care about the sector, the people in it, and where it's heading, subscribe and join the conversation. Well, this is the first time I've ever done a podcast in a proper sound studio. So I'm not sure if we're going to get knocking and drilling from next door, but this is really fancy schmancy. I don't want to reveal all quite yet, but I'm going to introduce you to this week's or this episode's guest, Dylan Murray.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes, yes, Ted. Yes, Ted. Come on, what's your actual title now? I'm the I'm I'm what is my title? That's a good question. We don't actually hang a lot of value on titles here because we are we all just have different responsibilities. But if you if if you must push me on a title, I'm I'm the director of operations here at Mason O'Fifth.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, we'll we'll come back, or back to the future. Uh we like an 80s theme. Yes. Um all about your present day. But let's let's really delve deep as I always do in terms of you as a person, you as a makeup. What attracted Dylan Murray to hospitality? What's your journey? How's it gone? Because I in fact, sorry to just as you were taking a deep breath there, just for the benefit of everybody, I met you, I'm gonna say, 15 years ago, 20 years. It's a wild case.

SPEAKER_00

Got to be got to be closer to 20 years ago. Closer to 20 years.

SPEAKER_01

I met Dylan in a basement in Kentish Town that was super duper hip, cool, mad crazy, lovely, chicken shop basement in Kentish Town, where it was just super off the scale, relevant, um, on-trend. Fun. Fun, and that's where we bonded. So anyway, enough about that, but that that was back in those days. So tell me, tell us about you, enough about us.

Landmark Hotel Internship To Manager

SPEAKER_00

I mean, well, hospitality, I feel like it's always been it's always sort of been in my blood, it's always sort of run through my veins, and it's something that even as as I was growing up and going through the the the later years of of my schooling before I went to uni, is I I was fascinated by the world of of travel, I was fascinated by the world of hotels, I was fascinated by the world of food and drink, and how all of these things collided together and created experiences for people, created value to people, and how people valued how you know how warm hospitality was and it and it brought a a sense of calm and a sense of warmness to to to people in all different facets. So so so hospitality it was it was something that I I I I watched very carefully and I always wanted to work in some form or shape of hospitality. So I pursued that, you know. I I I I I had an opportunity, uh I'm going back to 1995, long time ago, and I hadn't I had an opportunity to come to London and to do a one-year internship at the landmark hotel on Molybone Road. And it was too much of a good opportunity to pass up. I I just finished uni back in in South Africa, in in Johannesburg, and this was an unbelievable opportunity. Come to London, been to London once before for a couple of weeks, but come and come and come and live and work here and gain experience in hospitality in one of the most dynamic cities uh on earth was just you know was a fabulous, it was a fabulous thing. So so off our off I went, you know, and and I I got here and got got into the bones of the landmark hotel. And it was a typical post sort of post-uni internship where I did three months room service, I did three months in the restaurant, I did three months um in the bar, and uh three months in housekeeping, and just just got to learn the bones of this fabulous five-star deluxe hotel. Um and I completed my my year and I loved it so much, they offered me a a full-time role. And really, that's where my journey began in in hospitality and it and it and it and it and it sort of developed from from there. Um but it was it it was those early stages of of having been fascinated by it and having the opportunity to come to London and and and getting get get my teeth into in into the early days of the landmark hotel, which was which was wonderful.

SPEAKER_01

Landmark couldn't have been that old at that time in terms of re its new refurbished life.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's right. I can't I can't it went it went through uh as you as you say quite a substantial refurbishment. And I I think it was probably maybe five five years prior to me me doing my my uh internship. So it was it was one of the new sort of deluxe five-star hotels on the London hotel scene. And uh it had this fantastic winter garden atrium that was just and you know, did these wonderful afternoon teas and had a fantastic restaurant, and I and I, you know, when I'd finished my my my one-year internship, I, you know, have my parents being British, I was lucky enough to have a British passport, so there was no issues with visas, and I I ended up, you know, they said, Would you like to stay on? I'm I was loving it, sure, I'll stay on. And uh and then I I I started working in the restaurant, and I started really as a I was what's known as a as a demi-chef de rong. So basically only allowed to run the food from the kitchen into the restaurant on a big uh silver tray and put it down on a Geridon, and then I had to stand back, and then the the chef de rongs were allowed to serve it. So and I sort of longed for that opportunity. One day I'll be able to physically serve the food, and I I can't wait for that opportunity. And things progressed really quickly. You know, I ended up uh you know getting that promotion and working my way through the ranks. I did a couple of years where I got really deep into wine and I I spent quite a bit of time in in France. Well while I was at the at the landmark, I did my WSET's diploma, and uh then I moved back onto the floor and I moved into the management. And by the time I'd finished six years later, I was I was the dining room manager, which uh and it was a it was a fantastic start to my hospitalities career. And the landmark, even to this day, I've been back several times and I I hold it very close to my heart. It's a fabulous hotel, and it's stooped in tradition and and and you know it's a it's a deluxe luxury hotel. Um bit old school, but still I love those sort of old school hotels.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's always charm in old school, that's for sure. Yeah. Well, we're too old school. We're we're about old school. So so where where next? What happened? I mean, I love the fact that you started at a hotel, by the way, because a hotel encompasses so many of the almost everything of hospitality. But hospitality has now morphed into so many other things, but I love the fact that you started at a hotel. Yeah, when what you spent six years six years there.

SPEAKER_00

I was then um Gordon Campbell Grey, um, wonderful, wonderful man, um was developing uh London's first five-star boutique hotel, uh, which was number one Aldwich Hotel. And I was lucky enough to be approached um by uh who was at the time the food and beverage director, he was the appointed food and beverage director for the newly to be opened One Aldwich Hotel. And he'd approached me when I was working at the landmark and said, you know, come and have a look at this project. And it was very exciting. And I went across there and walked into One Aldwich Hotel, and it was it was it was so early in the development phase of it that you could stand in the lobby bar where now stands that that oarsman, and you could look all the way up, and that they hadn't the roof wasn't on yet. It was still there. And uh this was just an exciting, a really exciting opportunity. It was a small hotel, 105 uh rooms. Matt Roberts was doing the was doing the the the the wellness space in the basement, which was which and at the time he you know fantastic to be involved with somebody like Matt Roberts. And and um, you know, they offered me the role to come and be the breakfast manager uh of Indigo Restaurant, which was upstairs on the on the mezzanine level, overlooking the lobby bar. And uh so I I moved from the landmark, moved to one Alditch. I was part of the the opening team at One Aldwitch, so it was fascinating being part of launching a brand new hotel like that, and you know, being part of that opening team and bringing it to life. Uh it was unique, it was a great experience. It it was there was there was high energy, uh, there was a lot of hype about this because, in amongst all of these big five-star deluxe traditional hotels, here was this new age boutique, modern, uh you know, small hotel popping up in the heart of London on on the you know on the corner of Aldwich and Strand. Uh, and that was an incredible part of my my journey so far, being being part of that opening and being part of One Alditch Hotel. So I ended up being there for uh I think it was the from from memory the best part of five or five to six years as as as well. And I met a lot of fantastic people along the way working at at One Alditch, but also had the opportunity, um Gordon Campbell Gray and Campbell Gray Hotels had then done a um they'd done a management agreement with um a hotel to open a hotel uh called Karl Al Bay in Antigua. And I had the opportunity to spend uh about six months uh going backwards and forwards to Antigua and launching this uh this this this hotel called Karl Al Bay, um uh which again was was was fascinating and and fantastic. So so you know, morphing morphing out of the sort of the landmark days, which was quite traditional, into this sort of small boutiquey hotel on on Aldwich and then going over to Antigua and and launching Carl Al Bay was just it was you can imagine I was I was in my late late 20s, early 30s, it was it was it was an incredible time.

SPEAKER_01

If if people could see my face, I pulled my most fancy schmancy face that I could possibly pull, as he said Carlisle Bay, because uh people that are not familiar with it, um it is really the most fancy schmancy. So um very good, very nice.

SPEAKER_00

It was great.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and what a time, like you say, what a time to do it when you're you know single and and not attached and um no no you know carefree in in context of carefree. Nothing's ever carefree, of course.

Founding Dylan’s And Pub Expansion

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, no, it was. And uh I you know I think I think hospitality is about you know it's it's it's it's peep it's it's people driven, right? It's for the people, by the people, and I think bringing that warmth and bringing that real sense of service and care to an environment, whether that's uh a restaurant, whether it's a hotel, as I said previously, whether it's I think that to me is that there's a real sense of uh you know, I I feel I feel it gives me a real kick, it makes me feel really excited by that. And I and it's it's authentic. And I, you know, there's nothing better than being part of something like that. And I had that that's those early days for me, and particularly as as I moved into one aldrich and then got involved in this in this opportunity with Carlisle Bay, was just you know, it it brings out the best in you, it was high energy, and it was just great pace, and you'd you'd jump out of bed in the morning and be high on life and just be like, Oh my god, it's gonna be another great day, like this. And you you the hospitality, you you've got to expect the unexpected, you know, you just never know how your day's gonna pan out. But at the end of the day, you've got to bring the right attitude to it, you've got to bring the right flair to it, and you've got to you gotta make the most of it and have fun along the way. Have fun.

SPEAKER_01

I didn't know any of what you've just told me, and I am spotting uh a common thread here of Dylan Murray riding the wave of of the hospitality trends, and I'm really piecing it together because obviously I know a lot more about you of the of the more recent years. So this all now makes so much sense. Um I'm I'm really enjoyed that backstory. Yeah. Um I'm I I don't know for sure, but what what was your next move?

2008 Crash And Pivot To Soho House

SPEAKER_00

Well, my next move was a really interesting move because we um a very, very close ball, still a very good friend of mine today, uh chap called Richard O'Connell, who uh is is is a wonderful guy. And um he he was he was a chef at One Aldrich Hotel. Uh we became very good friends, and we were young, we were hungry for success, we wanted to do our own thing, and we would we would sit for hours after work talking about, you know, imagine if we could open our own restaurant, what would that look like? And and anyway, long long story short, we'd approached uh we approached uh an investor, um David Newling Ward, who sadly passed away several years ago. He was uh he was a big hospitality uh man, he was very well known in the industry. And um we approached him with a business plan, and um lo and behold, he he met us at the crazy bay in Beaconsfield uh one Tuesday afternoon and said, I I love your your energy, guys, I love your your desire, and I'm prepared to to back you guys and and let's give it a let's give it a go. And that was the start of we you know, we we left one Aldwich Hotel, we opened a restaurant in Cockfoster's in North London, um, which incidentally was called was called Dylan's, not my choice, but um, but that was that was fabulous. It was uh it was a neighborhood restaurant um and modern European and uh seven days a week, and we launched that uh and took a whole bunch of people with us from One Aldwich and we created an incredible restaurant business there, which then you know over the years morphed out as we did a deal with Enterprise Inns. Uh, and we did a we did a pub uh in Bushy uh called the Horse and Chains, which was fantastic, and that then moved to us doing another pub in um in um just outside Hemel Hempstead um called The Swan. Uh so suddenly, three years into this this journey of us opening a restaurant, we were sat there with a restaurant and two pubs employing almost 90 people, um and you know, work working our nut off, which was uh which was it was challenging, but it was it was it was fabulous, it was great. And it you know, it really opened our eyes to to the world of business, and how do you then start to understand the business side of of this hospitality machine and how do you make the numbers work and how how do you how do you bring all of that authenticity and the and the the the the flair of hospitality in restaurants, but making sure that it's it's profitable and making sure that um you you know you had a pathway to growth. So that that was uh amazing. And then sadly, as I'm as I mentioned, David sadly passed away, and that really sort of was the beginning of of the end, really, because um he was a big mentor to us. He was a big he he was somebody who was very close to us, he gave us um you know great advice. He he he was he was very much hold-handing us and and and supporting us. And that was right at the beginning of 2000 and 2008 when we had the crash as well. So it was an opportunity to sort of say, well, you know, we we could we could sell the lease for Dylans in Cockfosses, which we did. Um, and then we we kept the pubs going for another six months or so. Um and simultaneously at that at that time, I was then in the first early talks with um with SOO House. And that came through a very dear friend of mine, Martin, who I know you know very well. And Martin and I were at One Aldwich together, so we we that's where we we we met each other. And Martin was it was myself and Martin who uh went over to Carl Al Bay and and and opened the hotel together. So we go back a long way, and Martin had then reached out to me and said, I'm at Sower House, I'm with Nick Jones, this is an incredible brand. It was back in 2008, so it it was sort of gaining gaining momentum then. It was the it was when it was really sort of coming to life, I guess. And uh and I was I was so fortunate and lucky to to uh to to be given the opportunity to to then move to Sower House, um, which has been to this day the pinnacle of of my career and a a period in my life that I will hold very close, close to my heart because it it felt like the landing spot for me, you know, culturally, uh you know, ethically, how the business was, culturally how we were as a team, um, the energy that it that it brought on a day-to-day basis. It was very innovative, it was exciting, it was dynamic, and we were we were we were we were growing fast. We were looking at all sorts of new opportunities, and both in the UK and and I had the chance to sort of be involved in the opening in in Berlin and travel quite a lot across the States and then get involved in opening uh many many of the smaller kind of offsprings. You mentioned chicken chop earlier, but pizzeries, dirty burger, and it was it was exciting, it was it was it was brilliant, you know. So so that was uh yeah, that was the next move.

SPEAKER_01

At that point in time, I think everything they touched turned to gold, really. I mean it was it was the place, wasn't it? I remember going to Portobello Road, just round the corner from where we are now, and electric house was was uh in fact I thank Martin for uh getting me in because at that time I wasn't really I said wasn't really, I was hospitality, but I was classified as a property person. And old you know, and and back in those days it that was a big no no, no entry. Yeah, it was you can't come in, you're property, your finance, you're you know, you're too boring. Which of course, thankfully I was never boring. So I think uh Martin kindly um managed to sign me off and I got into the membership in um the electric house and you know of course we all have crazy memories if we can remember half of them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah, it was it was a wonderful it was a wonderful time. I you know you could argue London was a was different at the time, perhaps. I don't know, maybe that's just nostalgia, don't know. Um but certainly that that moment in time and and of of of of Sower House was was magic. It was it was it was you know everybody wanted to be a member and it was like if you have a night out you wanted to you definitely wanted to end up, if not start, at one of the houses, that's for sure.

Inside Soho House Growth And Bedrooms

Drake And Morgan Rollout Lessons

Consultancy: Ministry, Arcade, Caribbean

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean it's interesting you you say that because it you know there's a there's a there's a really fond memory I have of when you know it Sower House was obviously born out of food and drink and late night food and drink, with the initial house being you know being founded above Cafe Boeing. And you know, it was it was originally you know targeted to the people in in theatre land and predominately the people who worked in theatre, so there was a place for them to go after after all the shows in the West End, and they can come at you know knock on this green door and up they go into the into this house, and it was sort of an all-night food and drink and a and a and an environment of like-minded people, of of people having fun and sharing, sharing in in good in good cheer, uh but you know, and and creating an environment that you know you wanted to be in. And uh it then over the years um became a lot more than just food and drink as as as you well know. And you know, when when when it entered into the into the world of you know doing bedrooms and doing them really, really well, and I remember distinctly we took on uh um we managed to to uh to develop some rooms at Shoreditch House. Um and the difficulty was that at the time when we launched these rooms, you we didn't have the that we didn't have the density of members at that time to only sell rooms to members because the the what the the the desire was wasn't there. So you'd end up w with the slightly awkward thing where you've got these rooms and you want to sell the rooms and people are wanting to wanting to stay and occupy the rooms because by by the virtue of staying you'd get access into Shoreditch House. So you'd you as a non member, all you do is book a room and then you get access into Shoreditch House. And uh you you'd be able to see them, you'd be able to go on a Friday or a Saturday night and walk around the club in Shoreditch House and look around and go, Well, you know, it's almost sort of spot spot spot who who's come, you know, the bridge and tunnel crowd who've come across and just taken a room. Some people would book a room and never even stay in the room, just get access to the house. So, but you know, that changed as as you know as the years went on, and uh, you know, now the membership is so strong and and uh that they can they you know the density of rooms they have they just sell it to members and which is an an amazing position to be in. Um but sewer house is you know it it it always was and it always will be something that uh you know I'm I'm very very fond of of Sower House and very appreciative of the opportunity Nick created for me and uh and Martin and having the chance to work with those guys plus a whole bunch of other fabulous people was was incredible. Really incredible. Um I uh I then I then I think I moved on from Sower House at the end of 2016, so it was the best part of eight years uh at Sower House, and I and I did a three-year stint with Drake and Morgan, which was a bar brand. Um and I and it was I I wanted to get in, I wanted to understand the world of of of bars, of high, high-volume bars. Uh they were on a rollout, they'd been backed by Beaumont Capital, uh, and they were looking for additional sites. And so it was a good opportunity to to get my teeth stuck into that and um go on a bit of a growth journey with them, uh, acquiring sites. We did did site did a did one up in Edinburgh, did one up in Manchester, and then rolled out five or six across across London, uh, which was great because they were we were you know opening sites at a at a pretty rapid rate and you know, growing the team and um bringing these these these these these bars to life and then moving on and taking on the next opportunity. And so that was um that was a that was a you know a good a good good experience for me. I think cult culturally it was it was difficult just to just to be sort of focusing on on beverage and nothing else, and just it was 90% wet lead. Um but nonetheless, very, very good experience. Um I then um decided to do some I I finished up with them and took took some time out and um decided you know what am I going to do next and started doing picking up some project work and some consultancy work, and um which was great, you know, sort of having worked for myself previously, having a restaurant and two and two pubs, uh, but now being a consultant and doing project work was was fantastic. And I uh I picked up some great little projects. I did the um uh developed a co-working scheme called The Ministry with James Palumbo um from the Ministry of Sound in Elephants and Castle, and that was a great project to be involved in and worked with with DPAC on on um on uh arcade, uh Tottenham Court Road, and uh I picked up a client um called Seven Stars in the Turks and Caicos. I was traveling across the Caribbean, and so it was this sort of using all of my experience to kind of start to leverage project work for different individuals, both from hotels to to the to the world of flexible work, which was quite new to me. And and through that, I I uh very kindly was introduced to to Ollie and Charlie through through you from memory, which I owe you a lot of gratitude for. So uh and that really sparked a new relationship for me because they became a client of mine um just two, three days a week, and that very quickly morphed into a full-time role when I joined the office group, and I spent four years uh as um as COO working for the office group, and again went through a big, a big growth spurt with them uh in terms of rolling out new new sites and uh and and you know, Ollie and Charlie as as you know what what fantastic guys, you know, just incredible guys, incredible people to work for, very good friends of mine today, to be honest with you, and we're still very much in touch. And but the office group was a was it was an introduction to me into the world of flex workspace. And how can you how do you morph the world of hospitality into flexible workspace? And how do you bring, how do you create a point of difference in in the flex workspace market by saying, hang on a second, we can bring hospitality to this, we can bring food and beverage to this. And that's the way we differentiate. How do we differentiate ourselves in a market that is the flex market at the time was was was exploding. You know, people weren't weren't looking to take that many conventional leases, and they were they wanted this turnkey approach to flexible working. And we provide a fantastic outlet for that. But we coupled it with you know service and hospitality and great coffee, and did it, we did I did a great deal with caravan to to bring caravans across to all of our buildings and improved all the coffee machines and started working with you know providers to to put cafes in these in these buildings and then started looking at wellness and how do we how do we enhance the wellness proposition? And you know, Charlie Watts from Mana sort of started, we sort of working very close together to say, well, how can we, you know, this is this is not just your office, or this you're not just co-working in this building, you're eating in this building, you're attending events in this building, you're drinking great coffee in this building, you're going to the gym in this building. And it and it it sort of allowed it to stand out, um, which was uh that was which was incredible.

Enter The Office Group And Hospitality In Flex

SPEAKER_01

Great fun. Yeah, I mean I've got I've got some outstanding memories. I mean, I'll childhood friends with Ollie. Um in fact we've still got to get a get to get a date in a diary. We're meant to meet this week, it didn't work out, it's my fault, sorry Ollie. Um and Charlie I've known for not quite all my life, but certainly many years. But regardless, I think some some st standout memories for me were back in the day, I said, Ted, we've got this building in King's Cross, and we want to integrate a kind of restaurant on the ground floor, and it's a really great spot, um, and somehow want to do the office entrance into the restaurant, etc. And long story short, um, and we want all day, all day parts, and you know, we want people to drop in any time, etc. And I said, why don't we have have lunch at Granger in Westbourne Grove to talk about it? Of course, I might have had an agenda at the time, and of course, they loved it, and uh in the rest of history, we leased um I'm trying to think of the name of the building, Stanley Building in King's Cross to Granger on behalf of the office group at the time, which was a wonderful memory. Unfortunately, it wasn't to be that it completely integrated. Um but it it might be interesting to some people listening. The the thinking at that time was how can we? Um it wasn't quite possible in in that building at that moment, but the thinking was there. And then I can also just share the fact that at that time, well I said at that time, just um at the time of COVID, um, we realised we we had our own uh challenges, of course, as everybody else did. And it led us to the need to be much more flexible. It was it was a need, it wasn't a want particularly. It wasn't like, well, how are we gonna co-work? So I remember Ollie showing me Henrywood House, in fact, years before, or a few years before COVID, and I was like, well, this is wonderful, but I'm not your I don't think I'm your target customer. And of course, COVID came along, and I was like, Ollie, you know, should we have another look? And um sure enough, well, of course I remember how wonderfully you made us feel welcomed. Um, and the standout was you bought a special fruit bowl uh and left it on the desk full of fruit, which um you know how to get to the man's heart or my heart.

SPEAKER_00

So this was Liberty House, was it?

SPEAKER_01

Um no, this well no, hold on, you're right. I think we go to we went to Liberty first. We went to Liberty House. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We opened Liberty House and we you were one of our first clients. That's right. I remember walking you around the building and one of our first clients into Liberty, and then we moved you to Henry Wood.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so um so and I think what's changed for me um is having now lived the the dream uh the dream of of Ollie, Charlie and yourself and and others is it's now a want. It's not a need, it's it's a want. I want to be, and I'm going to say looked after. I want that flexibility, I want that hospitality. I you know, I enjoy drinking caravan coffee, I enjoy sitting at top table, what we fondly call top table in um in in where I am now in Brockhouse. And there's a big co-working table, and of course, I I said to Ollie and Charlie, I said to Ollie and Charlie one, I can't remember, on both separate occasions I said, you guys must feel so much satisfaction because this is what you you wanted it to be, which is a community which is, you know, fun at times, serious at other, you know, it's kind of just just it's a winning formula. Yeah. And they said, Yeah, we're really pleased you've said that to, but also it is by, you know, careful design. And and like so many great things, you don't always, you know, you have no idea the thought and consideration to all of minute pieces, whether that is design, whether that is the coffee, whether that is the reception area, whether it is the big communal table with other smaller tables and a whole mix. You know, it's it's it's there's a lot of magic there that um is there to be enjoyed, but but not necessarily, of course, appreciated in terms of how difficult that might have been. So no, I I'm a I'm I'm fully bought in. Um it's now, of course, fora.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And your time indeed would have moved on at that point or thereabouts.

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Post‑Covid Merger And Moving On

Joining Mason And Fifth

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know, COVID was obviously a difficult time for for for everyone and and all businesses. And I think we, you know, whilst whilst whilst going through COVID at the office group, I think we navigated the situation as best as we we we probably could have. Um but we we were a tight team, we stuck we stuck together and supported each other, and we did our level best to support our clients and look after our clients, you know, um, who were naturally going through a very difficult time. But but I think come coming out of COVID, um, I think the need to accelerate um you know, the pressure of that that need to accelerate, given that the lost time was there. And and I think the coming together of of Blackstone and Brockton uh in a in a in a merger was you know was was uh a very real uh real opportunity and an opportunity which rightfully so they they they'd sort of they'd they'd they'd progressed forward. And but naturally with with with all such things there is there are synergies to be had and there's an opportunity for for you know for growth, but also opportunity for people to to to take stock and rethink. And and it was it was exactly that for me to say, well, you know, it felt like the right time for me to say, look, you know, as this merger comes to life, maybe there's maybe maybe maybe there's an opportunity for me elsewhere. And so, you know, after four, just over four years, I think it was almost four and a half years, I went back to working for myself, um, which was was a very short stint because I picked up a string of clients. I I I you know reconnected with DPAC, and um at the time we were then bringing together arcade in Battersea Power Station, which was a fabulous project, and and did that and brought that to life. And um, but you know, it was an opportunity to you know uh reconnect with with with Ben, Ben Proviso, who's the the founder, he's a co-founder and and CEO of Mason and Fifth. And I'd met Ben back in 2018, the end of 2018, uh early 2019 maybe, and he he was looking at his the their first Mason and Fifth building in Bermansey and asked me to come across, and that was when I was consulting at the time, and said, come and have a look at this building. And uh we were introduced through a mutual friend, and he said, you know, I need some operational support, you know. We've got this building coming, and uh I don't know anything about operations, I need to bring it to life, and what systems do we need? What is the customer journey? What are the standing operating procedures? How do we how do we operate it? How do we how do we how do we activate it? Um and sadly at the time I I just didn't have the capacity to to to to help Ben. Um but nonetheless I was fascinated by him as a person, as a character, as an individual. I loved his vision, I loved his passion, I loved his attention to detail. And I just, you know, we always stayed in touch and we would we would bump into each other, we'd exchange a WhatsApp message every now and then and stay in touch. And you know, as as all all good things, you know, it's funny how life has a way of of of of making things come to life and bring things together. But when I'd finished at the office group, I you know, Ben had contacted me and said, um, you know, now's our opportunity. Come in, come in, come and do a couple of days a week for us. And we're we're we're now working on Primrose Hill, which is our second site, Bermansey's going well. And um, so that was the beginning uh for Mason of Fifth. And I started off just a couple of days a week, which very quickly moved to three days a week, and it was inevitable that you know we went out for lunch and we were right, let's how do we how do we make this a full-time thing? And and I was delighted by that because there's something about this brand, Mason of Fifth, there's something about Ben, uh, there's something about the vision behind the brand. And you mentioned earlier about uh everything being so considered and whether it's design, whether it's what it whatever it is, and how authentic. But I I look at Mason of Fifth and it's it's it's a passion, it's a real passion project for me now. Because we're a small team, a dynamic business that's looking for opportunity, but being very considered in our approach to growth. And in every project we do and we have done, the authenticity of how we approach it from a design, operational, people, brand, marketing, sales uh aspect is so so so detailed and so well thought out to ensure that every part of that is is you're able to bring that to life when the building opens. And in small parts, as a consumer or a guest of the of of Mason Fifth, you will pick up this authenticity, you'll pick up this everything feels like it's been very well considered and very well thought out because it has. And it's I think it's so important in in in today's market, uh, particularly with what with what we do. But um, you know, being being being able to join on a full-time basis and being able to launch Primrose Hill, which you know you're very kindly a guest of ours now at Primrose Hill, which is amazing, and the team love you there. And but you know, this is this this beautiful building in the heart of Primrose Hill that's grade two listed, and it's um you know, it's stooped in history and heritage, and we we could bring bring the brand to life in this building and launch it, which we did back in um April 24, um, and to see how the trajectory of growth and how the building has come to life and how what a loyal following we following we have in that building has been has been very fulfilling. It's been very rewarding. Um and it just helps us at the time as a small business to gain confidence in our ability to say, look, we we we need to you know we need to continue to explore other opportunities. And um that brought us to to taking on the project here at Westbour Park, Mason Fifth Westbourne Park. You know, we we we we we effectively went from launching a building in Bermondsey in 2020 of 28 studios to a building in Primrose uh in 2024 uh of 60 studios to a building in Westbourne Park in 2025 uh of 332 studios, and we're now on the cusp of of launching our fourth building in Balsize Park uh in April, uh which is similar to Primrose Hill, 50 56 studios. Um it's a really exciting time. It's an amazing time to be part of this business and um and and and you know, just a bit about what it is, what what do we do, and and you know, we're we're effectively a flexible living concept, you know. Whether whether you stay for a night or you stay for a year, we don't necessarily differentiate um by tenure and and it's it's bringing hospitality, it's bringing warm hospitality, and hospitality is a is a mindset. It's bringing that authentic warm hospitality to these living, these living concepts, and looking at ways in which we can support uh and aid people's living experiences in in the city, which is becoming difficult because you know buying property in London, renting property in London is very expensive. And and what we aim to do is try and bridge that gap by um providing a solution which is an all-in solution with no no no no bolt-ons, um, which actually is very affordable. Um, but it's underpinned by great service, it's underpinned by great staff. And in buildings like Westbourne, where we've got the opportunity to to leverage immunity, then you know we bring we bring wellness forward. And and and in this building we have a an indoor pool, we we've got a treatment studio, we we have a class studio, we have a fantastic gym. We've we've we've then brought food and beverage to life in this building where we've partnered with Dom Hamdy from from CRISPR and and Bistro Freddy to to launch Canal, our restaurant, which is which is you know, um, which is fantastic, and we've had the opportunity to create a workspace. Uh so we've almost got this ecosystem in this building of the heart of it sits this living, flexible, living concept, and then the immunity proposition, it's it's all underpinned by these amenities, whether it's work, whether it's wellness, whether it's food, uh, and then it's you know, we we put on an incredible events program, which again just creates creates experiences for people. So it's an ex it's an exceptionally exciting time for for Mason and Fifth for this business. And the the team continues to grow. And the business we continue to look at new opportunities. Um, but whilst remaining very humble and keeping our feet on the ground and continuing to work at trying to find what it what is the sweet spot because we are still a relatively young business, um but uh with with with big ambition um and and with a with a great team around us. So it's uh it's it's hugely exciting.

Primrose Hill Launch And Growth

SPEAKER_01

I'm seeing parallels with Soho House. I'm seeing similarities because you know for me they they dip their toe in the water, well say dip their toe in the water, a bit more than that with their co-working and obviously they've got the rooms which is not quite co-living. I is this the evolution of Soho House?

The Flexible Living Model Explained

SPEAKER_00

Look, I think there's been a lot of uh people have drawn a lot of parallels to So House with with Mason Fifth. I I personally think not. I think we you know you can you can you you can identify certain similarities, I guess. But I you know we we're we do things in our own way, in our own authentic way. I think um the the the idea of creating this environment that needs to feel like a home uh rather than a business or a hotel or a a a part hotel or co-living to to to to conaphrase. I think um whether you're staying, if you're staying a night or two or three as you as you do in Primrose Hill, the objective and the aim has always been to almost create a home away from home for you and an environment where you feel like it's a home away from home. So in order to create that, you need to we need to be very considered in how we deliver that and what are the touch points that you're gonna come across on a daily basis, whether it be in your studio, whether it be in the communal spaces, whether it be the touch point with the staff, how how how how do they interact with you or how does the environment interact with you to make it feel authentic and like a home away from home, which is a key, which is a key differentiator. Yet if you're living here and you've taken out a 12-month uh license agreement with us and this is your home, it's how do we how do we then make that, how do we make that environment feel like a home environment to you on a permanent basis? Um and marrying those two things together within different footprints, uh size of buildings, uh footprint of the building, location, demographics, is is is is a challenge in its own right. And we're we're not selling membership, but we're almost creating an underlying membership, if you like, without people paying for it, because it's a community of people who are starting to live with us regularly and people who come back regularly. I mean, the amount of people who naturally since COVID, a lot of people have have relocated outside of London and they've come back into the city. For two or three days a week. And we have a huge amount of people who, week in, week out, come back to Mason Forth every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night. And whilst we don't give them the exact studio every week, they get the same category every week. And to a to a point where they are, you know, they they they know for these three nights, this is my home in London. And I feel a sense of there's there's a sense of familiarity to it. The staff are just so welcoming, they're the little touches, you know. You mentioned the the guys putting fruit bowl in your room, it's just a little touch there because they know how much you like fruit. And these are the little things that we aim to do. You know, put how do we put the smile on people's faces? How do we make people feel relaxed and at home? And I I I you know, nothing pleases me more than walking around these buildings late in the evening and 10 o'clock at night, whatever, and you see people who are living here, or people who are just staying here for a couple of nights a week, who are sat on a sofa reading a book in their pajamas, and you just feel like this this wow, okay, people feel so comfortable, or people walking around the communal lounge with no shoes on because they they they can. And you go down to the laundry room, and people are sat in the laundry room in a dressing gown with a book, reading a book, waiting for the dryer to finish. And it it it you you feel that sense of home in in that space alone. Um so uh yeah, I I think you can draw similarities to sewer house in some part, but really I think it's it's it's it's forming its own it's forming its own space and it's forming its own place in London at the moment, which I think we're doing, you know, what we do is I think we do differently to to anybody else in the co-living sector. Um, and that's important. I think that's very important, and it's very considered, and it's very authentic. And we continue to look at opportunities of how can we better the experience? What what what can we do to make the experience better? Uh, because you you can never stand still. You know, every day we gotta we gotta we gotta question how we do things and can we do it better and what what should we be doing to try and enhance the experience? Uh and that's the exciting part. That's that's true hospitality for me. You know, true hospitality is walking into a room and seeing other people have a good time. And we we have that environment at Mason the Fifth because it at any juncture you can walk into our spaces and you want to see, regardless of how long you're staying, you know, are you having a good time? Are you enjoying this environment? How are you interacting with the house? Uh and we bring that together through the experiences we create.

SPEAKER_01

There's a lot of the thinking, I'm gonna say five or ten years ago, there's a lot of talk about 15-minute cities. Um, you know, where literally you have everything at your fingertips in very close proximity, and this is almost a kind of one-minute city. Yeah. Um in in that context. Um when uh I remember with with with Ollie and Charlie, who were also doing something similar in the offices, this is now an evolution, and um what what do you see your greatest challenges to this model and this and this financial environment at the moment?

Amenities, F&B, And Events Ecosystem

SPEAKER_00

I think um I think the greatest challenge really is is um being different and not necessarily reinventing the wheel, but the greatest challenge is making sure that we maintain a small core mentality and we remember where we've come from and despite growing and opening new new buildings um is keep coming back to uh why we're doing it, what's the vision, how we're gonna continue to uh deliver on that vision regardless of size or or scale, and not getting ahead of ourselves and not making sure that uh we remain uh focused on on that vision. We remain really, really laser sharp focused on that vision. I think I think the difficulty when businesses uh move out of being startups into small medium enterprises and then beyond is you you can very quickly lose the focus of what the original intention was because it becomes big, so big that that core, that small core mentality gets slightly blurred. And for me, I think we need to we need to really remain focused on on what it is we're doing and why we're doing it, and what is the what is the value the brand brings and how do we continue to enhance that brand value to people? Um because that's where the that's where the magic is.

Is This The Next Soho House

SPEAKER_01

I must be honest, I forgot when I just talked about 15 minute cities, I forgot when I was referencing Ollie and Charlie exactly what I wanted to say, and you've you've given me a brilliant segue because I remember Ollie saying to me uh he was sitting down with his uncle John Harrison in the early days of expansion, and John said to Ollie and Charlie, Who's your competition? And at that time, Ollie and Charlie said we don't have any because nobody's doing what we do the way we do it, and that was quite you know, obviously a nice moment for that moment. Yeah, and of course John said, Don't worry, they're coming, they're coming, they're coming, you know, and it was just such a I I I I remember that and just it sticks with me because anything in life, you know, you if you're a creative, if you're a pioneer like you, if you're on a wave of of trends and and progress, which you know you've drawn many dots for me today, which is brilliant. And I just I've got a much more colourful picture now than I did before today. I think that you know, people want to copy good people, people want to copy good ideas. They might not be as good, but they but they will they will give it a good go. And I think sticking to those original core principles are are very important because you're going to get challenged by accountant people. We've seen this in restaurant businesses growing, where the accountants will say, Well, hold on a minute, can't we swap that produce out for this supplier? And can't we go for the frozen product and da-da-da, etc.? We all know these these processes, and I think processes are the right words there, um, that can dilute the experience and can dilute um the brand. And you mentioned earlier about people coming into Mason and Fifth and recognizing these points. I my feeling is most people don't give credit for the detail because they don't necessarily understand the detail and they sh shouldn't necessarily understand the detail. Yeah. But it's a sixth sense that says, as a guest, this is right, I like it here. And it's it's just those component parts that have all come together that through all your hard work and for all the people's hard work that goes behind the scenes, um, where they're literally going, so it was a bit like Guy of Escher said when about his co-working that his i i he looks at the imperfections as perfection and he distinctly designs some imperfections into his product to make sure that there is this feeling of authenticity, yeah, um, non-cookie cutter, uh, etc., which I thought was really, really clever. It is, yeah. And I don't think people, you know, necessarily notice that there are some different chairs here and different chairs there, but they but they start to feel that actually there's this sense of uniqueness, there's a sense of it's not all the same, and you just digest it in a consumer way. Um, and and that I think is is is definitely an art. And I and I must also quickly say, you've missed out something that I unless my memory's playing tricks, which is very possible. Am I not remembering you at the table where we were acting for the Portland estate and you were team Santiago Lastra for Cole?

Designing Home Away From Home

Community Without Membership

SPEAKER_00

I I was working a little bit on coal with Santiago, yes, and Jake and um Marco. Um when I was when I was uh I had many clients when I was um consulting. Uh they were a client of mine at one stage, and Santiago, I mean, what a talent, what an incredible guy, and and what a what a business they've created. Um but uh yes, you're right. I uh yeah, I did I did some work for Marco and Jake and Santiago Cole and a few of their other, you know, a few of their other projects, um, which was Casa de Franco in uh close to Borough Market. Indeed. Which was uh which is an exciting uh yeah, an exciting project to be a part of. I wan I wanted to just pick out quickly two points you just brought up there, which I think are very important and we speak a lot about. So that core mentality you asked about the challenge. That that that for me is is obviously a big challenge for us, and we need to and we talk a lot about it. But you mentioned design, you mentioned about how considered everything is, and and your market, your customer, your guest uh doesn't necessarily always pick out these details or notice these details. But that's the intention, if I'm honest, because uh if they weren't as considered or they weren't as well thought out, they would notice it because it wouldn't be convenient, if that makes sense. The idea is that it flows, the customer journey flows. The customer journey is uh has been so thought out that it's a seamless when you're experiencing that journey, you sort of seamlessly flow through it without noticing it because it's it's considered, if that makes sense. And it as soon as it the in as soon as it isn't considered or it it feels awkward or doesn't flow the way it should flow, that's when you notice it, and that's when you interrogate it, and that's when you go, well, this doesn't quite work, this is a bit this is a bit awkward. Whatever that is, or you know, whether it's the layout of your studio, whether it's the the the customer journey through a through a communal lounge, whether it's you know how how the wellness space flows, uh it's very important to to consider that customer journey and and understand how people are going to navigate through it. And if it's seamless, it's it's it's it's if it's seamless, it's convenient. And if it's convenient, it feels familiar. And if it's familiar, it's like home. And we're sort of touching those points that we're we're aiming to touch. The second part, just which is very, very important to us and what we pay a lot of attention to is obviously our people and culturally trying to build a team of people who um I speak I I speak all the time to them about people say when they join the business, you're like, well, what's what's the what's the overarching expectation? And it's simple. The overarching expectation is to to to to be the best version of yourself every day. And if you can wake up in the morning and you can come into work and you can be that best version of yourself, whatever that is, but we've employed you because of you, and we don't want you to be anything other than you, and we want you to bring that best version of you every day. And if we've got a team, a bunch of people, regardless of the role you play, because everyone plays a significant role in the business, if you're coming to work with that attitude and that approach to be the best version of yourself every day, and we have a bunch of people doing that, we're going to be hugely successful. And you know, this this is a business for people, driven by people, and you know, the amount of reviews we get of how many people, how many of our customers physically call out the staff and physically call out the people, and that is what not many other businesses can copy. So to your to your point earlier about people will people will be coming, people will be looking at what we do, they'll try and mimic what we do. It's creating that environment for people to be the best versions of themselves. And we started the conversation with you asking me what my title is, and we don't lean onto titles because in our view, we we all just have different responsibilities. No one's higher than anyone else. I have my responsibility, the next person has their responsibility, and so on. But if I bring the best version of myself every day to my responsibility and I look after that, and everyone does the same, we're gonna be winning.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And that's that for me is the winning formula. And and hopefully, Ted, you feel that. You know, you you're a new customer of ours staying in Primrose Hill now, and you know, you've integrated with the team there, and um hopefully you you can feel that authenticity.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not a shy wolf flower. But I no, I I uh look from my own personal experience, I think there's also a thread because it's no coincidence that I work at Fora, which is the new name for the office group, if people didn't uh realize that that change. Um and I'm looked after, and I frequent and stay at Mason and Fifth, and I'm looked after. I think that there is you know uh no coincidence there, there's a common thread there, and I'm gonna suggest that there's a trend there because I think that more and more people will be buying into being looked after, and without going too um off beat, you know, when you think about AI and all this kind of stuff, I think that this this piece of being looked after, if we were crystal ball gazing, and I've watched some very interesting, you know, Elon Musk kind of crystal ball gazing, and you know, who knows what what the truth is, but I think what we do know is that the world's changing rapidly, yeah. There's no doubt about that, but I think what is consistent is the need for community, the human need for hospitality and being looked after. So I think this that kind of um piece, I believe it will be more and more in demand, yeah. Um and and the flexibility piece. So I think I think you know, looking at your journey, you know, I think you're right on trend, and I think you are still riding the cus of hospitality. Um I did listen to your comment about So House being the pinnacle, but I'm you know, I I I wouldn't mind revisiting in a couple of years because I think you might feel the same way about Mason and Fifth. For sure, for sure.

Guarding The Core While Scaling

SPEAKER_00

I mean, look, I I the Mason and Fifth journey for me has been um incredible so far, and it's coming up to three years in in April, and um I feel like it's my it's my landing spot, and uh I feel very at home and I feel very um at ease and and comfortable with the brand, with the uh you know how we operate the business, and with the you know, we're we're a very like-minded bunch of people who you know work exceptionally hard and exceptionally passionate about what we do and really buy into the long-term commitment and vision. And and it's a it's a labor of love. It's it's a project. It's a real project. It's not, you know, the the the the fact of being employed and earning off it is a byproduct. That that to me, it's it's so much more than that. It it it's you know, you don't develop this this this this energy and drive uh for a for a for a for a paycheck. You don't you just don't. You you do it because it's so real and it's so and it's so rewarding and it's so fascinating and you you're you're so deep in it every single day. Uh it's a pa it's a passion, it's a real passion driver. And uh so no, I I I agree. And I think um look, it's it's you know, I'm uh some might say you're coming close to the end of your career, you know, I'm I'm 52 now, and I think, well, you know, the next the next 10 years for me is all about Mason and Fifth and and how we can continue to um you know that that continue to enhance this journey we're on as a bunch of people and just have fun and but also being able to build something that has real legacy and we can look back one day and and go, wow, that was an incredible 10, 10, 12, 14 year period where we built something that is in is incredibly authentic and people can recognise that. And that that to me is where the magic is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean at 52, I think you've got all the tools in the box now. So I don't think you know you're you're an oldie. I think you're just warming up, and I think and I think the same to be said about Mason and Fifth.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm conscious of your time, I'm conscious of everybody else's time, and my I hope they're not too bored listening to this episode. I need to ask you uh a final question and then we'll wrap up. But I but you have given me about twenty different examples unknowingly or knowingly through this conversation. But if you could sum it up as succinctly as possible, what does hospitality mean to you?

Invisible Design And Seamless Journeys

SPEAKER_00

Um I'm gonna lean into what of one of the things I said earlier. To me, hospitality means seeing other people have a have a bloody good time and being able to, in whatever environment that is, being able to walk into a space, walk into a room, uh, walk into a restaurant, and you can feel the energy and you can feel that people and you feel everything feels right here, from the music to the lighting to the staff to the energy in the room, that to me is hospitality. And it's very you know when you bring all those equal sums together and you deliver it in in an authentic way, there's nothing better.

SPEAKER_01

Nothing better. There is nothing. That's why we love hospitality, do you? So I'm gonna thank you ever so much for being my guest, and I just want to put it in a bit more context because I have paused on my podcasting for a good six months or so because I wanted number one to give it a break, but also um, which I think I always have done, is just home in on the best of the best without blowing too much up you. Um and you know, it's not about quantity, um, it's about quality chat. And uh so, listeners, please be aware there will be more to come now. I'm I'm warming up again like Dylan. Uh there will be more podcasts, um, so watch this space, and thank you so much. I've obviously loved it. So thank you for it. Love your work, mate. Love your work, thank you. Thank you.